WHITE STARS ONLY - [EQL-7970][TDD-3139] Leap to target location, not waypoint 6 sectors away

[barren estuary]

Let's all just spy on auscorp replays yeah

I'm planning to peek at top level matches over the next few days and see what happens

It looks like in aus vs sg there might be a leap starting in 4h or so?

[golden vector]

Yes it's live now, and both ts have plenty of time to evacuate

[barren estuary]

doesnt look like the trigger will survive though

[golden vector]

It's disputed, but should work out I believe.
I will say that it looks like a perfectly fine and interesting piece of gameplay so far imo

[young ermine]

Even if I say so myself

[barren estuary]

well having to engage in the middle seems to have made leap triggers more vulnerable

at least somewhat

[barren estuary]

btw are you in sg or aus?

[golden vector]

Which was expected honestly, and with veng/dest both being made better at the same time, I wouldn't be surprised if the three before more evenly balanced now.

I'm usually with auscorp but guesting with Anzac this week

[steady jacinth]

Please make difference - "location" is not "destination" - so description is not accurate thus the usage is not intended

Several corporations abuse the unintended fact that leap is going to target destination and not target location. Leaps is quite successful long range weapon that do not require high tech mods.
It is a question of time that all corps will start abusing it.
Andreas should do something as this is unintended abuse of a mod - it is not used to help ally in need but to

• send big area damage over big distance
• teleport BS on far away distances bigger than what normal teleport level allows

One possible "fix" is to limit the range of leap to correspond to the range of the teleporting ship,
If you cant teleport to the other side of the map with your teleport level then why you should be able to use leap 1 to go there?

By sending leaping ship across the map - is LEAP helping any ally ship in fight?
Or it kills miners/TRs that do participate in combat at all.
TOTAL ABUSE!

[cobalt coral]

It does go to the destination though. If it moving its destination is the current location. Working as described

And let’s not forget that we have been using leap to cross the map long before its current mechanic

[steady jacinth]

Nope, a distination is a possible future location, the current location is something that could not be changed...I am reading the mod description for WS...unintended use 100%

Also why Leap should be triggered by ships shooting at miners or TR?

[cobalt coral]

If I’m going somewhere, the place I’m going is the current destination. If I am not going anywhere the place I am is my current destination. Currently I’m at home and that is my destination. Later when I leave for work work will be my destination

[steady jacinth]

Location is position... you mix the meaning of both words.... destination is for moving objects or object that change their location

[cobalt coral]

Nope

My current location was my destination as I was headed here. I haven’t picked a new destination so this is still my current destination

[timid crag]

Jesus, You know something aint right with the mod if the suggestion to change it gets over 1k comments

[midnight plover]

Comments are irrelevant indicator, they are from the same ppl repeating themselves over and over.

There are plenty of examples of such topics with the tons of spam in them.

There will be at least a few comments arguing about this as well 😂👆

[timid crag]

I wa about to lol, but it would be derailing from the actual meaning of this thread

[steady jacinth]

To fit the intended use the leaping ship should teleport exactly to the location of the leap target at the end of the leap.

[cobalt coral]

No, that’s how it used to be and was clearly deliberately changed.

[steady jacinth]

YES, if the leap target will not arrive at the final location after 8h than the leaping ship should go to the real location. it it better that the game could calculate the future location after 8h and teleport the leaping ship to it

If the leap target could not reach the landing point in 8h then WHY the leaping ship should go there?

UNINTENDED USE

[cobalt coral]

This has been the case since leap was introduced day one. Then the mod was redesigned and it’s still like that. Clearly it’s intended behavior

[steady jacinth]

UNINTENDED USE - but devs ALLOWED it

[cobalt coral]

Why redesign it and go out of their way to leave that in then? It’s intended use

[steady jacinth]

no it is NOT

[cobalt coral]

Dev even said so here the other day

Ok

[steady jacinth]

LEAP is far away from what it was meant to be - it is now teleport with unlimited range regardless of the level of the mod

it attacks ships that do not attack the leap target, it causes huge area damage

[cobalt coral]

It’s always had unlimited range

Since day 1

[timid crag]

Tbf, back then leap landed on the closest viable spot next to the trigger

[cobalt coral]

Which could very easily be 3-4 sectors away from the target ship

[timid crag]

True, as long as roids were mined

[steady jacinth]

1. PROBLEM - distance - LEAP range should be connected with leap mod level and not higher than teleport level

2. AREA DAMAGE - ...... the damage should be to attackers of the leap target and not to other ships.

...

[cobalt coral]

Why?

[steady jacinth]

LEAP is in competiton with two mods - teleport+remote bomb

leap takes the disadvantage of the two mods - range limitation of teleport and delay of remote bomb

so you have 1 mod instead of 2 - multiplied by 10 in power

[timid crag]

Is the distance really the problem here, or is the fact that 99% of the time leap is paired with alpha shield?

Would disable mechanic, forbidding you to use mods for X time after landing help?

[steady jacinth]

it is betterto divide problem and solution.

you see that the dev allowed this unintended use of leap

LEAP acts as unlimited range teleport and immediate remote bomb with 10x power

It is like immediate vengeance (with power 2x or 3x) on landing without need to lower hull below 2000.

So LEAP is also taking the function of vengeance without its drawback - i bet it is not intended

[cobalt coral]

It says right in the description “anywhere in the star system”. Please explain how the dev types that without it being intentional?

Monkeys typing on an infinite typewriter I suppose

[midnight plover]

I think we are one leap nerf short before a ws will become a mining mods' lvl competition. There should be always at least one offense tool, which can't be just denied by one defensive tool.

Otherwise welcome to the mining stats competition, where the winner determined at the very start of ws.

[cobalt coral]

People just wanna farm in peace without fighting at all

[midnight plover]

And they think they will be always on the right side of the mining superiority 💀

[timid crag]

Leap always had unlimited range, just without RL and alpha's invincibility it was very hard to trigger it AND stay alive long enough/close enough to the landing destination. The only thing that changed here is how landing is calculated. Before it was closest waypoint to the trigger, now its you know what.

Leap dmg in ws was always questionable for me, I always though drs and ws values should be switched around. But how its unintended if Dev himself put it in the game?

[timid crag]

Lets also reduce barrier cd, make it block tps and were back in the 2020 turtle meta

[cobalt coral]

At least now you know where the leap will land before hand. Before the attacking team could change its landing up to and including the last possible moment so it wasn’t defendable.

[timid crag]

Before it was also instant, along with destiny. So you could be hit and left wondering about what happened

...it was instant or im making shit up? IM not sure now

[cobalt coral]

It was instant originally but it was given a charge up not too long after

[steady jacinth]

why should leap be more powerful than a neutralized remote bomb?

[frigid saffron]

cuz its neutralized idk

maybe i should look at the damage but im too tired -.-

[steady jacinth]

either remote bomb power damage should be increased - it is Lvl.11 mod compared to leap - or leap power should be lowered to remote bomb -LEAP is a lower level mod - same for vengeance

people use leap as long range area damage instead of using teleport and remote bomb

something is wrong here, obviously

we will abuse it until it will be nerf-ed

[young ermine]

Leap should be dangerous, it's the whole point of the module. However that danger should come at the price of requiring skill to land one, coupled with the jeopardy of it potentially being denied/unsuccessful.

The conversation here is whether that balance is in check.

Completely nerfing leap into a short range teleport that does little damage would essentially make it more pointless than last turret.

[cobalt coral]

Leaps that do no damage kill the landing ship and double its respawn cooldown 🤔

[steady jacinth]

it should be equal to the teleport level - upgraded teleport to 12-13-14 is not short. Why leap 1 should go further than teleport 14?

leap 8 (600bpls - lvl.8 arts) has better damage of neutralized RB 8 (600bpls -lvl.11 arts)
One mod has better performance than 2 higher mods together

RS4-5 "players" - upgrade leap to lvl.8-10 easily without any other mods requirement to be used as "teleporting bombs"

is this abuse?

we are allowed to do it - similar to teleporting blast drones

[young ermine]

Because you can teleport at will to any waypoint in range, with no warning.

Leap requires a a second battleship to provide a target location, as that battleship being in combat.

The debate here is that it's the second part of the mechanics where there is a problem: the concept of leap (in white star) resolved around the idea that the trigger ship was weak point in the set up that required resources to protect. The mechanics in DN have a way of pretty much ensuring that the leap trigger is seldom in danger because it's possible to trigger leaps where the trigger ship never has to leave safe space.

There is disagreement between players over whether they feel the assessment of the trigger ship's vulnerability is correct or not, and even if the mechanics should be redefined in other ways to make it harder to engineer leaps.

What you are proposing is essentially removing the module altogether because it would be inferior to every other option available, as well as having the fiddly mechanics

[steady jacinth]

agree, so we have unlimited range teleport with instant bomb for RS4-5 player who could carry 7t on TR.

[young ermine]

That is literally how the module was designed

[steady jacinth]

it should go to higher levels arts but it is too late - players have have leap 8 at rs4

[steady jacinth]

triggering ship is always in the safe zone - so vulnerability is only in theory
also leap could be triggered easily even by RL shooting at miner or drone

[young ermine]

The scaling and availability of the modules is a separate issue to this. All rs9 tech is available to the lower players.

[barren estuary]

making it exclusive to higher rs would only make ws matches more unfair

[steady jacinth]

carrying 8t is not lower player - this is mid player rs6+

[young ermine]

And that's what this discussion is addressing.

Either make the landing proximity based like it was in old Hades star, have a "minimum distance to target before trigger is leapable" or even ideas like "battleship only counts if under attack"

These would force the battleship to require protecting if leaping across the map

I also think that maybe direct fire weapons should only be allowed for leap trigger (so no RL, dart or pulse as leap trigger) this could also help

But if RL can't be a leap trigger, shooting at rockets or darts should also not count as a leap trigger

[steady jacinth]

yes this is one way to deal with Leap - triggering mechanic

I do not like the unlimited range of leap

available at LEAP lvl.1 for RS4 players who do not even have teleport lvl.1

[young ermine]

Most white Star modules scale in one dimension only

Hence why vengeance only increases in damage, not radius

Mirror shield only increases in strength, not damage multiplier

Leap only scales in damage dealt. Even if a range was added, it would go against the normal behaviour of white Star modules to scale on two variables

[steady jacinth]

so it nice to have a fixed amount of damage of leap and only to increase the range with leap level

or damage of leap could correspond to the level of other mod like veng or remote bomb

[full ridge]

This was my version of a half way that kept the current mechanic. I still don't like it, but I thought it might be a happy medium.

[steady jacinth]

Could be.

Lets speak about good side of it. Leap is needed to keep the fight ongoing when distances are big and there is no time to reach the opposide side...

It give a chance of the loosing team to attack

Any enemy ship near the gate could trigger leap and give an option to attack the other side of the map.

[full ridge]

can't even attack the opponent because that alone gives them the ability to send all of their ships to anywhere on the map

a few people have disbanded their battleships to avoid giving the opponent that ability. I have done this in the past.

[cobalt coral]

We used to do it every week

[viscid sand]

There’s so much discussion in here, but I do agree that the key problem is that the leap trigger ship should remain in relative jeopardy for the entirety of the leap preparation period — that seems to be the main reason why leap seems so overpowered, because right now the meta is to trigger it while far away from the destination and then teleport away to remain safe.

I can see a couple ways of fixing this:

1. Andreas’s suggestion of longer leap periods could do well, I think, if the leap period scaled with how far the leap destination is from the trigger ship. So if it’s in the same sector, it could even be shortened to 6 hours, but if it’s across the map, the prep period could be 12 or even 16 hours for leaps across the map.

2. The leap should be cancelled (or perhaps the leap destination changed) when the ship changes its destination. This means that the trigger ship is required to maintain its course to maintain the same leap destination, thus keeping it in jeopardy. (Actually changing the leap destination would require some more thought because then the meta would become: teleport at the last minute to a different planet to damage the enemy there, which seems like it should require some time for reaction by the enemy.)

[full ridge]

As for the longer trigger, as it is I just sit on gate and wait for leaps to complete. I don't think more wait will help them kill me on my own gate.

[viscid sand]

How do you trigger a leap while on your own gate?

[elfin sinew]

Trigger? If they're near or on your p1, RL, leap+rocket drone, turn back

Activating it is as simple as can be tho

You press a button at the right time

[full ridge]

I trigger it mid star.

To cancel my waypoint to the opponent
I launch drone, leap to drone, disband drone

I then impulse back to my own gate and wait there for hours.

Also what Biggocelot123 said is accurate

Essentially the drones are used to stall the waypoint

Leap can land on the exact opposite side of the star from the furthest points

[barren estuary]

if leap canceled the instant you lose your destination

1. maybe fortify would see some use
2. bond would be good against leap and become even more prevalent

[viscid sand]

I believe bond can already change a leap trigger destination, right?

[viscid sand]

Ah ha, I see. I guess both suggestions could work together, but yeah if you’re triggering like that the longer prep time doesn’t do much

[cinder briar]

99% of hades' star players stop suggesting to increase activation delay\decrease effect duration right before it fixes the broken module

[barren estuary]

not after leap has been activated?

[full ridge]

I have used this. I impulse at them and bond them first. If they rely on time machine, then their leaps will land based on position rather than waypoint. They have 2 options, break the bond or wait it out.

I miss the strategy of redirecting the leap landings by mining out specific asteroids. Used both defensively and offensively. Much more depth to strategy

[barren estuary]

what i mean is if the aforementioned change was to be implemented, in progress leaps can be canceled by bonding the trigger

[full ridge]

ah

[barren estuary]

and i dont believe that is a good change considering how prevalent bond already is

[full ridge]

I think it is used less than it used to be

[barren estuary]

good

[viscid sand]

Oh I see what you mean, that would be too easy a counter yeah

[golden vector]

I think the new relics change did a good job putting offensive alternatives up a notch, and leap back into a more reasonable place.

It is still very strong and a key factor to account for, but back to being one of multiple viable tools.

[vale nymph]

Seems like cerb drone is a bit of a indirect response to this too, providing a leap-blocker.

[viscid sand]

I disagree, I still think it is the strategy everyone cough leaps for when playing offense. Are there any examples of strong offense that doesn’t use leap against a strong defense?

[cinder briar]

Tp spam

[elfin sinew]

TP spam is an emergent property of barrier

Imo

If barrier didn't get spammed so hard tp wouldn't be as necessary

[cinder briar]

Who could've thought that an ability to freeze all enemies in a large radius with just a press of a button would be so oppressive?