Flagship cooldowns not working properly

[cursive lynx]

So we discovered today that warping your flagship out of a white star and then back in resets all of its cooldowns, allowing unscrupulous corps to basically cheese their way through a white star.

Currently, our opponents have 4 sets of recoil drones out simultaneously, as seen in the following screenshots:

[gloomy inlet]

yep, well known and been used for months. Really wish someone was around who could fix it.

[vestal terrace]

Intended feature at this point

[cursive lynx]

If this is intended, then the only explanation is that the devs want the game to die.

[vestal terrace]

That is the most dramatic interpretation

[gloomy inlet]

This is the frustration. I think maybe there is a new dev there. Things are different than before.

[deep sierra]

True. We've actually had event weekly for the first time in 3+ months for the last few weeks.

It's almost pretty at this point.

It was useful though, for us to leap

[deep nexus]

Strange. Maybe it only works on drones. It takes 10+ hours to bring out the flagship again. That's why I can only release 2 packs of drones.

[solar seal]

It's jump out which is 2 hours.

Death is 3 days

[deep nexus]

🤡

[manic valley]

Maybe the “FIX” is to only allow the Flag one jump into the system. If it jumps out for any reason, treat it as lost for the whole WS or give it the 3-day delay treatment

[deep sierra]

It would probably be an easier fix to just apply the same mechanics of global cooldown to it as is done to the normal BS instead of coding a new limitation.

[solar seal]

Honestly what exactly is the issue?

The drones have limited range (the unlimited range bug got fixed right?) and the idea of being able to be close to their gate in the first place without stakes raising is silly.

Being close to the enemy gate should always be a near complete death situation.

Also, in order to do this, you have to have someone doing this every 6-10 hours round the clock. This also means that you don't have the flagship using it's mods on your fleet, because it's being used defensively instead of offensively, and will take even more time to switch if needed.

[gloomy inlet]

We used to have our entire corp do 2 hour drone launches nearly around the clock. We also have all timezones in our corp. It's very doable.

[solar seal]

I know it's doable, I just meant, I think people aren't weighing the pros and cons well. It's a balanced feature. It's not game breaking, nor really a glitch like impulse is/was

[gloomy inlet]

Feels cheap to me. Feels like cheating.

[solar seal]

I can understand basing it on feelings. But that's also why I'm not actually seeing an issue. I'd have no problem watching it happen. Because I like the pros of the opponent using it. No EMP rocket, no cataclysm. Etc.

[gloomy inlet]

I'm good with it, but then I should be able to refresh my battleship as well.

[solar seal]

That's trueeee

[thorny swallow]

Or make it that recoil drones don't work in JG sectors

[small thicket]

It’s not just the Drones

You can refresh the entire Flagship

It is petty. But I guess anyone who has a Flagship can do it… so it may as well be worth its crap MMR value in some way

Only worth doing with Floating Shield though IMO. Drones are decent, but Cataclysm is kinda whack

[nocturne goblet]

Cata done right will turn the tide of a match. My Corp has gutted an enemy armada of five with it before.

[small thicket]

Yeah rookie corps fall apart to things like that

[vapid wagon]

Likapa has encountered a corp exploiting for the first time. This is lame asf,

@empty ether @cloud lichen

[manic valley]

It’s becoming meta now.
Just like Leap cheese in BLS and CR/CRT for days in WS

[gloomy inlet]

If the battleships cannot do it, the flagship shouldn't either. Feels like a bug or cheat.

Also feels cheap like punching below the belt

[small thicket]

Kinda feels like desperation tactics for corps that don’t know how to plan well

Tryhards

[vapid wagon]

@tight narwhal @ripe sail

At the very least, can we get conformation on whether or not this is a bug or a feature?

Likapa won’t abuse bugs. BUT if this is what you intended, then we need to know that so we can incorporate new tactics

[cloud lichen]

It's a bug

[cloud lichen]

Leap in BLS has viable counters. I would never leap onto a guy with Barrier/Alpha/Dest/(EMP).

[gloomy inlet]

Is there any plan to fix it?

[cloud lichen]

IDK

[vapid wagon]

Thank you

[vapid wagon]

LMFAOOOOOOOOOO BRO WHAT

[vapid wagon]

Don’t suppose you can like… find out for us?

[cloud lichen]

Mate I'm a chat moderator not a game dev

[manic valley]

It’s most likely left over from HS when we could hot swap mods and cooldowns at the gate. They just forgot about the Flag having the same ability

[vapid wagon]

Do you lads not have any special chat room with the devs or admin team?

[cloud lichen]

Well yeah we can message them on discord. They are aware of the issue and will fix it eventually. There's nothing we can do to speed it up.

We only ping them for high priority stuff (i.e. game breaking exploits, account stealing). FS mod refresh timers not working is something that is reported through this channel and checked when they have time. It's not critical, and not our job to dictate what update they should do next. Given you said you were a mod yourself, you should understand that.

[vapid wagon]

Is this not a game breaking exploit?

Well thanks for your time man.

[gloomy inlet]

When on the receiving end of this, it can feel like the enemy team has 'god' mode.

[cloud lichen]

It's just a couple recoil drones and only near their gate. It sucks, sure, but it doesn't ruin WS.

Plus, they can't have their FS on the field if they do this

[deep sierra]

The issue is worse with higher level flag ships is assume. Recoil drones are like the most benign option there. Other than the near useless EMP missile.

Multiple cataclysms, floating shields, etc etc. Could make catching relics on their way home impossible

[simple kite]

If they are spamming stuff near their gate they aren't sending anything dangerous far from their gate.

I welcome corps who waste their time doing this.

It's entirely predictable and I assumed common knowledge by now.

It's not like the chain ray time machine order bugs where an enemy can screw over your time machine support orders by jumping in and out. That's game breaking and has been known about since day one.

[empty ether]

If you have a replay or match in progress where you felt this bug broke the match, please post the star ID here. "They got unfair advantage very near their gate" does not qualify for match breaking. It should be very dangerous to approach the enemy entry point too closely.

[gloomy inlet]

it's been used for much, much more than that. Has ruined the game for many. repeated recoils out with full mods.

[cloud lichen]

aight, share a replay here and ping the devs, read their above comment

[gloomy inlet]

waiting for entry into my corp. I hope the replays are still accessable.

I'll make a recording for anyone who requests it.

[gloomy inlet]

APD-7306 repeated use of every flagship mod far ahead of refresh times. It's just the most recent example with a replay that works. I know there were better ones though.

[cedar spear]

What they do is come barely out far enough to recoil use mods and 18 hrs later do it again, 3 floating shields 3 cataclysm later and 12 drones the map is all about fighting the damn flagship, meanwhile the players chain ray under one of there many floating bubbles and its ridiculous. Flagship should enter battle and stay until dead or end, shouldn't even be allowed to leave or respawn

We put a stop to it and barrier killed the flagship

If you can't win without using exploit then don't play or have someone teach you

Legitimate team Likapa beating cheaters still in progress

Could have only imagined how much different this match would have been if we let the flagship land on a p10 near the middle of the map, it could send drones anywhere

[umbral path]

So it's a bug but not worth fixing if nobody using it far enough from their gates? And can you please define how to measure "near gate" and "very dangerous approach" exactly.

[gloomy inlet]

This demonstrates it. repeated use of every flagship mod as fast as it can refresh.

[umbral path]

👆

Is this count as very dangerous approach?

Or far enough?

[vapid wagon]

These dude had to burn so many mods to counter the FS the first time, then it comes back@fully refreshed with another cataclysm, and then another. Not to mention the free area shields

These dudes are having to burn way more mods than they should have, just to counter the unlimited FS

Is that not game breaking? @empty ether

[cedar spear]

@cloud lichen looks game breaking now doesn't it? Maybe you can use that dev hot line you have

You have legitimate players trying to keep the game fair and enjoyable even seeing the enemy doing it fighting the hard fight for the glory of the game

[cloud lichen]

dude the dev is literally in this channel 😢

[cedar spear]

I know just picking, wish I had a hot line.

[gloomy inlet]

They've seen it. They know of it. Our job is done.

[cedar spear]

Yea maybe a hot fix is coming soon, an update im looking forward to.

[simple kite]

One solution would just be to make the flagship mods all cool down in 24h. The problem is caused by recoil. If all mods refresh in 24h then that's how long it takes to do a gate to recoil out, back and return to gate

[gaunt lark]

I mean, I think the problem is caused by the fact that the flagship doesn't move back and forth between the white star and some other environment where its mods' cooldown status is preserved. It probably just kind of stops existing once it jumps out/becomes a banked corp asset. So all that needs to happen is they need to have that ws-specific cooldown preserved.
But that is a problem for the devs. It's their job to make something, and think about its intended uses, and improving on those intended uses.
Honestly, ideally it's QA's job to think about how those things could be used for things the devs didn't intend. And ideally some industrious STEs would have found this before any of us did. But this is the mobile development world we live in.

[gloomy inlet]

Give it the death timer on warp out is the simplist solution

instead of 2 hours

[cedar spear]

I personally think the flagship should be a once a ws use you bring it in use it safely and smartly or lose it and do without the rest of the ws

[solar seal]

But recoil is a 12 hour thing. Plus the 3-4 hour travel to and 3-4 hour from edge of gate sector.

So it's not like how delta/leap/tele use to be in OGHS where that was actually game breaking and gave you no time to prepare and was nearly impossible to stop unless you saw it begin.

Having 6+ hours to escape, avoid, or provide any other counter (barrier, EMP, delta drones, suspend, impulse, etc) is not game breaking. Plus another 6+ hours to prepare for the next one to come back, giving you yet another 6+ hours to see it happening again.

Maybe you could barely consider it game breaking when a FS only spends drones every 8 hours. But even that has limits. Range for drones, still has to be out of gate sector, giving you 6+ hours again to prepare for them.

drones are easily counterable with a single mbatt ship that does mop up work.

I do understand anyone saying it needs to be fixed.

But calling it game breaking, or even calling it cheating is such a big stretch in my own opinion, that I'm balancing across the board from other bugs that have happened and may happen.

Which is why the dev said this

"They got unfair advantage very near their gate" does not qualify for match breaking. It should be very dangerous to approach the enemy entry point too closely.

A floating shield, drones, and etc, only being accessible after 3-4h gate travel, 6h recoil, doesn't seem like its game breaking.

[gloomy inlet]

Corps are winning games by exploiting the bug and only because they exploit the bug. Which means everyone needs to adjust their play style to exploit the bug. The modules otherwise have a 48 hour cooldown which they have exploited and now have multiple additional mods. I'm fine with it, but then lets be fair and let everything else refresh this way.

[solar seal]

The video, you linked didn't win because they used it. They won because no one did anything against it.

That's the same as saying the enemy won because of anything they might have done, but really it's because the other corp didn't even jump into the WS.

What I'm trying to say is I don't agree that the "exploit" is winning games or even pushing easy button.

Impulse abuse is definitely considered that.

Spending hours of setup to use an area shield is not. Especially when it's obvious what's happening for more than half a day prior to it's use. And more than a day+ for each recurrent use

[gloomy inlet]

I think they won because of their first attack. But that did demonstrate the usage.

[gloomy inlet]

Is it possible for you to play without cheating like this?

[solar seal]

I agree that usage is there, I agree that it could be changed.

(But I think that change could even be reducing the cool down of FS mods 😂 which is the same or similar to current events and I think it would still not be game breaking.)

I even agree that for very specific situations, or very niche scenarios, it could be the winning tactic.

But I just can't find any way to agree that it's game breaking. That it's a real meta. I just can't find it in me in any logical way to call it cheating or exploitive in a way that is invincible. (It's exploitive to uninstall crunch and reinstall crunch in yellow star but that will probably never be fixed since it's not game breaking either)

[gloomy inlet]

Just like the pet thing where everyone had to do it or die.

[solar seal]

I disagree again. This isn't a tactic/exploit that is impossible to defend against. And I did state my logic on why I think that it's possible to defend against and prepare for

It's not even hard to defend against or be prepared for

[gloomy inlet]

too many mods expired after first attack

Then it jumps the line

Last I'm saying on this. -out

[cedar spear]

@empty ether did the flagship get fixed or is this an official it will be this way from now on?

[vapid wagon]

@empty ether so was Leap considered game breaking and overpowered in BLS? Can’t imagine nurfing leap took priority over fixing the flag ship exploit

[cedar spear]

If it's not a bug and a game mechanic now please let us honorable people know so we can quit handicapping ourselves and use it like everyone else.

[simple kite]

I think it is clear that using the mechanic is not considered cheating .

[cedar spear]

It was stated as a bug by the team and under the terms of use policy bugs and be used to ban accounts or delete them.

Hence it is cheating

[cedar spear]

Here

[cedar spear]

Exploits

[simple kite]

Read the bullet from the start

[cedar spear]

You must be one of the people using it that's ruining white stars.

[simple kite]

My flag is level 4

I don't even have recoil drones

I personally think that the flag should follow the rules of the battleship cooldown

And ideally it should be patched to follow the rules

But the reality is, it's the same for everyone and will only cause a problem in a game where there is a big mismatch between flags

[cedar spear]

I retract my statement then

[simple kite]

There is no reason not to use it

From a "legal" point of view

[cedar spear]

It's a stated bug, somewhat a Grey area

[simple kite]

And the developer has said unless someone can provide examples that they agree are game breaking that it won't be a priority to fix

[cedar spear]

They proved it already

[simple kite]

No, people posted videos, the developer has not said (in this thread at least) that they agree it is game breaking

It's pointless stubbornly refusing to use the mechanic on a matter of principle if you face an opponent who does it. Until it's fixed, it's a reality of the game environment whether or not it is good for white star or bad.

[cedar spear]

Here it's not game breaking if it's near gate, however video shows it being used half way across the map

Parameters at which they said wasn't game breaking have been pasted

[simple kite]

Look, use it or dont use it. It is up to you. You won't be banned for doing it as it doesn't require using third party software. Its entirely server side

[vapid wagon]

Crutch gamer

[simple kite]

I literally have no clue what you are saying. But I have never used the flag ship cooldown refresh in white star.

[small thicket]

MCK-3397

It was used in this match, though we still won, it was an example of its potential impact.

At this time, though I don’t remember the Corp, I saw abuse in this method of a maxed level flagship and the real issue I saw is when they have Floating Shield and can abuse it, plus get the refreshes.

Flagship abuse lost us a match against a Brazilian corp a while back, and it was abusing a Flagship that had Floating Shield, and certainly affected the outcome.

As far as urgency goes, well…. Both teams can do it, some choose not to. And Flagship vs Flagship there is almost always a level disparity and thus an advantage one way or another.

ON THE FLIP SIDE the flagship matchmaking skews a match too much, and this maybe balances it out.

However, if this gets left alone, then I would suggest instead that a Flagship should be assigned to a WS Scan individually, so if Slot 2 is using Flagship 2, only Flagship 2’s mmr value should be assigned, and only that Flagship should be available for that WS.

[simple kite]

Once a flag is jumped into a WS, it gets locked in. So making the flags "slot 1 flag" and "slot 2 flag" would make a lot of sense, and allow a low tech B team / training team to meet fairer matches.

If that information could be exposed in the API for results, that would be great too.

[small thicket]

Yeah, and it would stop whales from creating new corps and trying to smurf lower level corps and players. It would balance the mmr quite a lot, I think

[gaunt lark]

I think a question for the developers to decide how to prioritize this is: Is this what the flagship is for?
Because if this is how it's being used, this is all it can do for the entirety of the match. It's not going to do anything else, because it has to stay at the gate to refresh mods. So... why even have flagships?

They created something, with an intended purpose (not this, presumably), and that purpose is going out the window. That might not be "game breaking" in the way they're usually talking about it, it might not be creating an unfair advantage out on 95% of the map, but maybe it's "broken" in the way that, when used like this, the flagship isn't providing its intended value or performing as designed (again, presumably).

It's not required to go to the enemy gate to win, and sure, it should be dangerous to approach the enemy entry point, but dangerous like a well-guarded fortress? or dangerous like shai-hulud? Is the gate supposed to come alive with a dozen drones that jump out and bite my ships?
Maybe that's the new normal.

If that's the takeaway from the dev response to this thread, then we probably are going to see some shifts in flagship play style for as long as it takes for this "bug" to get worked on.

[orchid quail]

I read through all the messages here and no one did the one thing the dev asked you to do... you can't be surprised when it doesn't change if you can't follow very simple instructions on how to start that process...

I'll even ping it so you can read it again. Not a single star ID posted.

[gaunt lark]

Not a single ID feels like an exaggeration. Here are 2. But both seem in line with the notion that this is a bug (as confirmed by devs) but perhaps not "game breaking."
#1227370049388417064 message
#1227370049388417064 message

[gloomy inlet]

You wanted an example of a team losing due to flagship refresh. We have one going on right now. PLN-0815. We don't have the modules available to keep up with it refreshing. The cataclysm has been used on us twice in a row due to refresh.

[elder trail]

Its known since the beginning of DN. As long as the devs don't say "do not use it" or better the dev fix the cooldown.... My question is, why you don't use it? In the Moment i can See three type of Corps. 1. Don't know the Bug, 2. Use the option with refresh 3. flagship is more worth to send it with the def/miner ships

[simple kite]

It was known before dark nebula even launched. It was in early access and was well documented:

Not an official guide, but this was created ahead of the early access white star community test matches which happened 6 months before dark nebula launched.

[daring cedar]

This is a ridiculous statement. It is dangerous near an enemy gate but if all 10 battleships are in the white star and I have a one on one with the flagship at the gate I shouldn't be overwhelmed by recoil drones like that. This is a game breaking exploit and your answer is it should be more dangerous near an enemies gate. Come on!

[vapid wagon]

Being able to lock down your P1 and P5 like this should absolutely be considered game breaking

That’s the difference between winning and losing. That’s 20 relics that can’t be contested

[solar seal]

If you're locking down a low level relic planet. Then you've left 4 high level relic planets fully unguarded/uncontested.

So you will lose unless the other team is retarded and thinks your low level planets are far more important

[solar seal]

Being more dangerous near the gate has always been a major part of WS. Not sure why it's being complained about now.

It's a balance between being able to refresh battleship mods. And losing gate defense in general.

OGHS use to be dangerous near gate because all ships could refresh. Which made the rest of the WS also affected.

DN having only FS refresh means we still get to keep a card in the sleeve at gate that can still make traveling across the entire map to harass the entry point a dumb idea.

The equivalent here is that half of you are arguing that spawn camping should be a feature in the game and not have many repercussions.

Pretty much only @caprican @small thicket are arguing for a possible actual issue.

[small thicket]

It’s the recoil spam that’s problematic

But

If we all agree that it’s an intended mechanic and everybody does it, I don’t actually have an issue with it

It does have a slow return if killed

[solar seal]

I can see why it can seem like it, but doesn't recoil take a long time? Plus the travel to exit jump gate sector? Then recoil back, then travel to gate?

That was my original argument for why it seems balanced enough to be ignored compared to some of the other less appreciated DN changes.

[solar seal]

Same

But I haven't had the chance to check @caprican's WS he posted.

[small thicket]

It’s the recoil plus floating Shield plus cataclysm. It can be done rapidly enough to easy through a team’s barriers

[solar seal]

I get that, but what I'm asking is,

Isn't there still a large window of prep time where you see it start to happen? Retreat is an option.

And a even larger prep window after it happens the first time?

[onyx parrot]

Stupid exploit plz fix broke our game

Dude look at the range on this thing stfu prep time

[small thicket]

The response is Barrier +, not running away

[onyx parrot]

No, the response is fixing the bug

Battleships were fixed because it's a game-breaking impact

[solar seal]

Oki seriously. What exactly is broken about not being able to enter gate territory with a single ship?

Please read above. Your report needs to be game breaking. And you're only complaining about not being able to spawn camp

[onyx parrot]

If you're not good enough at the game to win without exploits then blame yourself, not everyone who disagrees with you

[solar seal]

Well that's not bad response either. I do see why it can be annoying. But I still stand by that I think it's kinda balanced

[onyx parrot]

I literally just showed a screenshot of this exploit ranging well beyond just the sector with the jump gate on it. That also happens to be where relics go, youknow, if you ever scored any

[solar seal]

No. You showcased the normal drone range.

[onyx parrot]

And then a flagship's recoil drone range

[solar seal]

Not game breaking. So even if this "exploit" was patched. You'd still have to deal with this issue you're complaining a little

[onyx parrot]

Lmao dude you're actually a value subtraction with your words like just get out of here man

There's like several people here who have been savaged by this exploit because that's what it is. How many more games do you think were ruined that nobody took the time to report it?

[solar seal]

Even the ones they are complaining about. Most of them still won...

And prep time? Are you kidding? The drones require so long to jump.

[onyx parrot]

Just because you're OK with it being in the game really doesn't give you any place to come in here and challenge that the majority of players find it infuriating that this is an issue

[solar seal]

Yes it does. That's what opinions and discussions are for

[onyx parrot]

I blocked Mr. Douche if anyone is wondering.

[solar seal]

Only you have been unable to have a genuine adult conversation

[restive pike]

@onyx parrot I'm only seeing one child. Everyone else have been discussing and even listening to other people's opinions

But you couldn't handle someone disagreeing with you?

[small thicket]

If you haven’t experienced it and cant really see the big picture of the implications of what this tactic results in, it’s difficult for me to explain it.

You can’t “run away” from all your assets in WS. You have to fight it off.

Floating + Cataclysm requires more than just a Barrier to answer, because the Shield does a lot.

Then you gotta EMP the drones.
Probably Decoy to protect supports…

Each time it happens. This happens much faster than the cooldowns, and also it forces turtling just to have the mods to deal with it.

Then there are your 10 BS vs theirs.

In a match where both sides have same or nearly same level flagships, they can both do it and it’s fine.

But for some reason Flagships are way off in level in matches

[onyx parrot]

This is a place to report bugs, not discuss "how much" the exploit impacted the game. We gave the WS game identifier to show how broken it is, as others have done the same or even posted videos. Parallel Space has very limited staff and workforce to resolve these issues, so it's importany to give the facts clearly. It is very obvious that this is not the intended use of the flagship nor is it a negotiable "minor" issue. As such anyone trying to justify the exploit being used is probably using it themselves and benefitting from their opponents naivety. There's no place for that here. It's not a discussion

[solar seal]

Flagships being off level is definitely more of an issue to deal with.

And I understand you can't always run away from your assets.

But squishies in OGHS WS required nearly all to be on field. That's not true anymore for DN. Before our WS players burnt out, I was in the middle of drastically changing our entire play style. Using minimal ships everywhere except on offense.

Which means we could absolutely retreat and screw the squishies.

However, to the first point you made, I haven't gone against floating shield. But I have used this exploit (mainly for supply line defense, which means I could use one flagship for that and put the rest of my corps resource to planet defense or offense)

And the use of recoil takes a helluva long time. So knowing mid recoil that a shield and cataclysm is on its way, means you should be able to make a decision on wether you can afford to stand your ground and try to snipe the FS. Or retreat.

But you are right in that if I haven't gone against it personally myself. I could be potentially off base.

But I argue that I'd only be off base on defense against the mods, not the timing. Because the timing is pretty straight forward.

3-4 hour gate travel,
6 hour recoil,
Mod usage
6hour recoil,
3-4 hour gate travel,
3-4 hour gate travel,
6 hour recoil
Mod usage.

So the first usage can be dropped in 9 hours.
but the second and repeated refreshes after the first usage is 18+ hours.

[restive pike]

Considering this has been a topic of discussion for months now and everyone else has discussed merits and issues with it.

It is probably easy to consider a discussion.

But as far as I can go back and refresh. You're the only one who thinks otherwise. (About it not being a discussion)

Not even the dev of the damn game agrees with you that it's game breaking.

[small thicket]

First, the bug is reported..

Second, the thread about the bug is exactly the place to discuss it.

If you can’t keep yourself composed, go find an outlet to deal with your emotions

[small thicket]

You’re definitely underestimating a high level flagship doing this. Look for some public view WS , you might find one that showcases the lopsided effect this can have

[small thicket]

Messages boards are about discussion. If he thinks we’re all defying the intent of this subsection of the server, he can go ask a moderator about it.

[solar seal]

I'll definitely do that. But I truly am having a hard time understanding unless I'm misrepresenting the peripheral mods from the battleships and not understanding the difference between high level play and their affect on total control of a field.

I'll check back in and let you know if I'm stubborn or enlightened 😂

[small thicket]

Yup do that. Floating Shields alone you are gravely underestimating

[solar seal]

Hard to find matches with the exploit. Only checked a few but I'm going for known name corps to try and make it more likely to find high level instances.

And so far one match did it the same way I do. Drop drones around rp1/5 and supply to help not need to defend with as many ships.

The second usage was a guy who dropped 3 floating shields. One per day. Order of Hades match. No recoil use though

Second check through, I didn't see any obvious named matches that had the usage of it.

But I did check floating shield stats and cataclysm stats. And I'm failing to see how it can be that big of an issue when mbatt is king weapon so most ships have it. Barrier and EMP can both manage rockets, area shield and blast shield and floating shield can all help conjoinedly against the cataclysm

[small thicket]

I’ve noticed that the prolific corps that we all know of aren’t the ones doing it

Nope, false

[solar seal]

Well let me know, or catch a record if you can. I saw caprican records, and it didn't seem like situations that couldn't be generically protected against

[solar seal]

That's what I'm not understanding.

[small thicket]

Most ships in higher level WS run CR not Mass. Mass isn’t the king of WS. And that’s beside the point

[solar seal]

Ohhh. I'm seeing lots of mass even in named stars

I did hear that cr is technically king. But I don't think that will last honestly

[small thicket]

Well they’re doing it wrong 🤣

[solar seal]

Especially if floating shield is presenting such a large problem

[small thicket]

Chain Ray will remain meta until balance changes are made. Again besides the point, wanna stay on topic

[solar seal]

😂

Yeah, so my current stubbornness is that I fail to see how current mod setups are failing to protect against cata+shield combo

[small thicket]

I don’t think you know, each Floating Shield “drone” has a second shield activation

It’s twice as good as is listed

[solar seal]

I did not know that.

Still. Switch to mbatt. CR may be a tank roller. But mbatt is more universal

[small thicket]

Mass Batt is not viable vs CR BS’s, basically at all

[solar seal]

Suspend/Wamp/barrier/few mbatts. And boom flagship doesn't seem as scary? Am I just getting something crazy wrong here? I really need to be in one of these game breaking matches

[small thicket]

The difference is that much. And Floating/Ally shielding CRTs is basically the strongest mechanic in WS, which is a huge issue with Floating Recoil spam

[solar seal]

In a normal sense of engagement, no.

[solar seal]

That's a new one but Im surprised I didn't think of it

[small thicket]

Yes well we are discussing the general format. Specific situations are not worth discussing with regard to broken mechanics IMO

[solar seal]

Well basically my argument behind my stubbornness is that people are holding near and dear to OGHS mindsets of WS.

[small thicket]

Yes , Ally Shielded CRT’s just wipe the field. They take so much mod useage to get around, by the time anyone gets past the crt they are spent

[solar seal]

Which makes them tend to fall in these situations that have other options.

[quaint condor]

I Agree

[solar seal]

Minus ally turrets. That doesn't seem like it has many options

[small thicket]

Recoil spamming is holding near and dear to ogHS

[solar seal]

Honestly I have a strong strong feeling it was actually purposely left in as a mechanic

[small thicket]

I dunno. Developer asked for examples, and didnt sayso

[solar seal]

What other options is there to make the gate a dangerous location? What prevents someone camping on your gate, especially someone who's leagues beyond most of your team. Which would require you to break off a large faction of your main field players to go deal with it?

Which then effectively destroys the balance of being able to fight mid field

[small thicket]

Anyways i gtg, its pissing rain and typing on my phone is aggravating me. Keep looking for examples. Ally Shield is the best WS shield, and Floating Shield is 2 uses of double the strength of Ally 12. That’s the biggest issue

[solar seal]

That I can certainly agree with.

[small thicket]

I personally don’t have an issue with Recoil Drone spam from gate.

[solar seal]

Maybe a simple delay, post recoil, for mod usage would rectify the situation enough to be more defendable when they run the cata+shield combo

But then that could have some gnarly other effects. Not a great idea

[vapid wagon]

It makes it so@you can’t contest the planet at all.
Some games are really damn close and it will come down to those expensive P1 relics. You are forced to attack the P1 or lose

[vapid wagon]

Also what corp are you with? I can’t seem to find INX

[vapid wagon]

Dev confirmed it’s a bug

[solar seal]

Inexorable

[solar seal]

Yes, but fighting to own THEIR rp1 should definitely be just as hard as fighting for the middle rp10

[vapid wagon]

Your stance makes sense now

[solar seal]

How is you doing it this way any better than my good friend's @small thicket

He points out specifically, in a constructive way, that by not experiencing it and no one else being able to put in words what's going on, that I'm missing how big of a deal this is.

@vapid wagon

But you also can't put it into words I'm seeing. So am I just supposed to take this as "I don't know but I think it's game breaking and you better believe me"

Because I thought you actually had two cents at the very least to contribute. Im trying real hard to understand what mechanic is making it impossible to defend against.

Andar taught me that the floating shield has two activations. So I did learn something. But obviously from the person who's willing to discuss it

[vapid wagon]

Good points have already been given, I’m not gonna waste my time on a player who couldn’t understand how big of an issue this really is, especially for the “big boy” corps that take WS seriously and WILL NOT use any exploits just to get a win.

[solar seal]

Also, I helped caprican generate a variation on the elo search for corps who participate in loss farming

[vapid wagon]

It’s like a parent trying to explain to their 3 year old why they can’t eat sweets all day. Kid isn’t gonna get it.

[solar seal]

Actually it's more like a parent not knowing the details, so they tell the kid "magic" and wave their hands

They don't have any numbers to quote, no evidence to prove it, no knowledge of what they're doing right or wrong against it.

So they resort to trash talking to protect themselves from feeling ashamed they don't know how to word it

How are you and @onyx parrot any different?

[onyx parrot]

MemeDaddy, I blocked the guy you're talking to. I felt the exact same way...

[solar seal]

Contribute to the conversation or find somewhere else to troll

[vapid wagon]

Honestly, not a bad idea. Dude actually is on another plane of existence.

[solar seal]

You complained about drones at gate having too much range. 😂

[onyx parrot]

Yeah, you don't have to see his messages and can just report the issue as normal

[solar seal]

That's not even a topic of discussion in this thread

[vapid wagon]

Like I would get it if he was a relevant player, or in a good corp. but man just talks out his butt about things he couldn’t comprehend

[onyx parrot]

Yeah it's not worth wasting any thought on. He's trying to make the bug stay in the game by obfuscating the argument and making it more difficult for devs to actually find the relevant information they need to fix it. Sorta like a climate change denier

[solar seal]

Well before you do block me.

Be honest. WHAT exactly is it that is impossible to defend against. What is game breaking about it? Or are you just jumping on the bandwagon and not even understanding how many options are available?

@small thicket is actually trying to articulate it, but even he is having a hard time so he and I are trying to find a match to view it.

[solar seal]

The dev already said your scenario isn't game breaking. Like very clearly stated it. He couldn't have said it more clearly unless he directly came to your house to tell you, he has no concerns about its usage near gate.

Other than that. No one has posted one damn WS that has actually had a game breaking issue. No one has been able to articulate the module computations of what is broken about it.

[vapid wagon]

My thoughts exactly, dude obviously hasn’t encountered it, and if he did, the corp was solely relying on the FS and did not have good tactics.
We ran into a decent corp doing it, and it was a damn hard fight.

Made harder by the fact we won’t do it back. They were able to clear their cerbs without using any of their BS. They were able to set up on p10 and dig in long before we could get to ours or even contest theirs

After that, the real fun started with the FS going on the offensive/defensive with the stupid floating shields, drones and cataclysms forcing us to burn mods

[solar seal]

hard fight

Still not game breaking? YOU have access to that replay. Post it.

That's why you post the star identifier. So he can search the thread and find the reported matches

If you can't post it, then it's probably not game breaking

[solar seal]

Considering it takes refreshing at the gate for it to be considered a bug,

You just outed yourself for whining about an actual function of the FS. Cerb clearing. 😆

[onyx parrot]

Good on you for keeping honor and not succumbing to foul play. Sorry to hear you had that opposition though. We had a lower level game where many relics could have been prevented if not for the enemy using the exploit. My theory with the blocker guy is he's relying on using the exploit to win his games and wants it to be part of the meta or needs to justify its existence to not mark him as an "exploiter"

[solar seal]

You guys scream of being newer players. Not understanding what is considered broken, what is,

Relying on the need to spawn camp their damn side of the gate shows more about your inability to generate, and retrieve relics then it does their inability to use something currently in the game.

Andar and Cap at least have genuine concerns

You guys are worried about not having unfettered easy mode access to their side of the damn WS

[vapid wagon]

Hey thanks, I appreciate that.

Makes a lot of sense tbh

Oh man, couldn’t imagine a lower lvl corp trying to compete with that…… in Likapa, we never focused on our FS, we don’t even have floating shield unlocked lmaoooo we always relied on our tactics and activity

[solar seal]

The actual problem with completely removing it without some other function being added will one day be made painfully clear to you.

Let's say a single rs12 player, maxed out mods fights to your gate. Now you have to dispatch 3-4 of your players to fight him off of it or you won't get a single relic. But your players are all midfield.

😂 Have fun with that compared to dealing with some drones. (While actual issues may or may not be happening when recoil, cataclysm, and floating shield are used).

But you just keep on complaining about your petty drones. That they have too much range

[vapid wagon]

Caprican isn’t in the server anymore, but defo look at this @onyx parrot I think 4 cataclysms now? Wild, they are prob gonna lose solely due to effect FS abuse

[small thicket]

The reason it’s hard to articulate, is because low level players can’t even fathom what high level Flagship abuse can accomplish. No disrespect there, it’s just the reality.

If one team is facing another team, and say mods and tactics are equal…
But one ship is abusing constant Recoil-Floating-Cataclysm, it’s a HUGE sway. Basically, every time the flagship does this, the amount of mods it takes to deal with this is basically equal to one Battleship.

This isn’t being done in a vacuum, either. It sways each battle, any given 1v1 encounter, restricts all movement of support ships, cuts Relic Drone lanes… the only way to beat a corp that is doing it is to turtle. It dictates the play HEAVILY. But the team doing it can just employ anti-turtle tactics (Dispatch, Leap, Vengeance)

A team that is refraining from using the exploit is at a massive disadvantage because the spam can be done every .. roughly 19 hours - and there is zero limitation on Recoil location targets.

Even Ally 12 can only turn on every 24 hours, while Floating Shield is 4x the power at every 19 hours. And that is one module out of the plethora that the flagship has at its disposal

Cataclysm rockets, once deployed, offer roughly 3 hours of reaction time, and must be responded to with Barrier. EMP is not good enough to stop them, and most ships are stuck in enemy barriers - Impulse Shield doesn’t help here. Blast Shield is not a cataclysm counter, etc

[vapid wagon]

Beautifully articulated. And at high lvl, If you are forced to turtle, you are prob done for. You can’t just leave their planets, hydro fields, and relic drone lines uncontested

[small thicket]

Basically, if you suspect the enemy will be doing this, you have to blow several BS worth of mods and compromise position to specifically target and destroy the enemy Flagship. A max level flagship that is being exploited, left unchecked, will win a WS for any team that isn’t horrendously organized or casual

Thankfully, most corps suck at using Flagship. They recoil it directly into the enemy and it just gets Barrier killed. Stupid how often I see that….

It’s a Support ship. If it’s used as such, it will swing battles

[vapid wagon]

Crown react 👑

[small thicket]

For what it’s worth, we’ve only lost two WS since DN dropped, and one of them was our slot 2 that lost to a flagship abusing corp

The other loss was at the beginning before anyone had Chain Ray unlocked… 🤣

[vapid wagon]

chain ray was a huge shock to teams that didn’t play DN beta at all, and had never seen it used. Happened to us 😦 lmaoo

[small thicket]

It's ok though lol now we are shocking everyone we face with Ally Shield 🤣

[vapid wagon]

Hope to see it sometime soon 🙂

[small thicket]

Just ask Pirates Spatial (they abuse Flagship btw)

gross

[vapid wagon]

We have seen more teams using ally shield lately, but not very effectively.

[small thicket]

Yeah it's hilarious

[solar seal]

#1227370049388417064 message

That does explain a lot better the general concerns. I'm still trying to find a match or replay to experience it

[vapid wagon]

It’s near the very bottom

Of the WS replay list

[solar seal]

That was gnarly.

I can see what andar was trying to say. I can see outrage could easily be explained. (Minus @onyx parrot and his complaining about drone range. That one is...)

But I do think a lot of different things could have been done.

1. choosing the rp10 that offshore chose was a terrible decision unless they originally planned to overwhelm nearland from the beginning.

Four RP vs 3 RP and being one sector away from each other is a disaster begging to happen even without FS exploit. They weren't going to win even if nearland didn't spam the FS.

2. trying to out relic a map that has enemy advantage is insane. The focus should have been RP1 or RP5 and throw 80-90% into attack.

3. the flagship exploit does seem to be the equivalent of a 3 man wrecking ball team but with the health of one ship. (But shields of 2- yes floating shield has a lot of health. But its still spread thin with cataclysm vs mbatt)

4. offshore's response to the second flagship spam was a bad selection of players. Batman and Whiska should have exchanged roles. Batman was more capable of saving modules and time and needed less backup if he had defended against the cataclysm (barrier, EMP, mbatt) and done it without wasting CRT

And Whiska could have taken out the lone bs with EMP and CR.

5. I really hope Kestra Akadi just forgot to change TM because using destiny prior veng finishing is why the flagship survived the third spam

6. caprican did a marvelous job of setting up a protection on the gate, and their response there was very good.

But the flagship definitely still overpowered it and made it easier the nearland to wipe most of that section.

Epilogue

Flagship with cata/shield combo is overpowered even without the "exploit". I highly expect something of that will eventually get balanced even before the flagship refresh does.

But to do that once a day is probably too much considering how destructive it is.

===============

@vapid wagon @small thicket
So I'm still in the boat of the exploit is not game breaking. But that something does still need to be fixed. Just the modules of the FS. Not the refresh. And no, not because I abuse it. Considering my FS only recently got EMP rocket.

But because I still think the entire playerbase is limiting themselves in the way they approach the current WS

[small thicket]

I watched it, but fast forwarded only cuz I’m busy.

UIH wouldn’t have the lead in that WS were it not for the Flagship spam.

[solar seal]

I disagree. It wouldve been a closer fight for sure. But they had the advantage to begin with.

But I see what you were talking about. But I still stand by a overhaul of general corp strategy and a rebalance of the FS is more important than FS being able to refresh.

FS being able to be a 3 man BS is insane

[raven lodge]

As a player in this match, the FS absolutely tipped the match. If you watch, we were holding our own and doing well up until they started spamming with it. Our offensive team wiped out a good chunk of their team and most of their squishies. Also dealt with the first usage of FS around 3d17h nova. Their deployment of the FS so soon behind us spread us thin and prevented us from utilizing the window our offense bought us. They were able to press just enough with their remaining ships to keep us from safely depositing forward, and then burned mods and stopped us from depositing backwards with FS. That was the tipping point in the match.

[vapid wagon]

The fact that a conglomerate like UIH abused a bug, is very alarming.

Guess they condone that stuff? Wonder if they also abused impulse bug back when that was a thing

[raven lodge]

“Using the FS bug is akin to (in an NFL game), knowing your refs are bad at calling holding fouls, so telling your team to be aggressive and hold since you know the ref won’t see it. Sure, it’s “technically” allowed, but purposefully exploits a gap in how rules are being handled”

I said that to our team earlier in the match when some were arguing it was fair that they used it since everyone knows about it

Oh. And I addressed the point in our discord too, but the choice of Batman vs Whiska was dictated by availability. We have players across the globe and sometimes people sleep.
Kestra’s failed attempt to kill was a TM issue

[gaunt lark]

Was holding off on weighing in, but we are finishing up our match against another UIH corp which also used this exploit. The flagships are much lower level, so the degree may not be as severe, but within the first 12h of the match, 4 sets of recoil drones had been deployed, and it's been used that way consistently throughout.
Had at first wondered if it was a little bit personal after Inmate filed the bug report. 😅 But after I saw above that another UIH corp was doing this, wondering if it's actually something they're doing across the board.

[onyx parrot]

Please include the WS unique identifier so game devs can use it to help make judgement

[simple kite]

There are two separate issues here.

1. Should the flag modules be changed to have global cooldown like the player ships

2. Assuming the developer decides "yes" to 1, and agrees to change it, is it ok to use this behaviour in your games until the fix happens.

For 1. I think that the flag should be changed to behave consistently like the player battleships. It's definitely game breaking if there is a mismatch on flag levels.

For 2, it's a question of reality. The behaviour has existed in the game since DN was in public beta. Andreas was aware of the behaviour as were all the experienced players who participated in the public beta white star matches 6 months before DN released. DN has been out for 6 more months now and everyone knows that it behaves that way. I have also tried to find text in the game that explicitly says that the flag should have global cooldowns but can't see it anywhere.

The reality is that this is the behaviour of the flag whether we like it or not, and it's clear than a significant number of teams are using it. That ultimately gives the choice of whether to use it or not up to you.

Maybe you can contact your opponent at the start of a game and see if they agree not to use gate refreshing, or maybe you don't use it yourself until they use it.

However, if your opponent does use it, and you don't then also take advantage of it, then you are electing to have a fight with one arm tied behind your back. Screaming on HSO about the opponent abusing the flag won't achieve anything or even win you any internet points. In fact, the case that it is a broken mechanic needs to have both teams use it to show it's not working. If the examples only have one team using it and the other team not, then all it has shown is that it's very effective. It needs to be shown to be broken when the losing team also uses it.

[elder trail]

👍

[small thicket]

Post the Star ID for Devs

[small thicket]

Post the Star ID for Devs

[raven lodge]

I believe Cap already did. This is all talking about PLN-0815

[small thicket]

And yes, UIH will do anything they can to barely scrape a win, or still lose spectacularly. Of all the trash conglomerates out there, UIH is the most desperate

[simple kite]

One further consideration is that jumping the flag out to heal it (which you can do with Battleships) is taken away if we decide to not allow flag jumping out

And healing mods have expensive cooldowns

[small thicket]

I don’t really think that last part is true. One team using it and one not shows exactly how one-sided it is.

Both teams using it evens the playing field, which is irrelevant to the issue at hand: if one team exploits it, is it problematic? Which we definitively know the answer is yes, it is - and it scales proportional to the Flagship level.

Now, the question for us, and I think the Dev should at least comment on, is will this be kept in the game or not? Is it a mechanic for now that we can all use until it changes, or will there be repercussions for those who do it?

If we’re all free to do it until it’s fixed, then I just recommend that everyone does it until they can’t. We don’t, but if it becomes commonplace then engine may as well, and we might too.

Yes it is very effective - maybe it is effective enough to balance the MMR value of the Flagship? You know all those corps with an over-levelled flagship who are starting new corps to game the MMR? Maybe they should just Flagship Cheese instead, if it’s causing a tougher matchup.

I just want either a developer to say go ahead and do it until we decide to fix it, or for the community as a whole to acknowledge it is dumb, but realize it’s there until it’s not.

[simple kite]

If a team jumps out a flag to heal it, are they then honour bound to wait until their module cooldowns would have come back?

Healing the flag is very important because of the 2 day cooldown on death

[small thicket]

If the issue were to be fixed, it would probably be: global module cooling, and no healing

[simple kite]

In which case Battleships should not heal outside ws

Have global cooldown on healing

[small thicket]

That’s true, BS do heal

[simple kite]

And regen shields (I assume that refreshes in YS)

Never tested

[vapid wagon]

I mean… if this happened to Likapa I guess we would be desperate for a W as well Hehexd but never desperate enough to cheat.

[simple kite]

Is it defined in the game explicitly that the flagship modules are supposed to have global cooldown?

Because if not, then it's only considered "cheesing" on here. Players who are not on HSO would just see going out of their gate as a way to quickly refresh the flagship modules and be completely oblivious to the controversy

[small thicket]

That’s more or less where it’s at, tbh

[simple kite]

Also, what about leaping to a stationary target? That is defined in the leap description as not being possible, but I am sure that every team uses that mechanic (to leap to closest asteroid once a leap target is teleporting or parked)

The leap description specifically mentions the target has to be moving. I don't consider that to be cheesing leap, but it is actively working against behaviour the game specifically describes

[small thicket]

Had to be moving in the moment of activation, that seems intuitive to me

[simple kite]

You can leap to a target when it isn't moving

[small thicket]

Activate when it’s not moving?

[simple kite]

Yes

It then falls back to old Hades Star rules

[small thicket]

Oh never seen that one

I still don’t use Leap in WS. Can still be Bond pushed so not a fan

[simple kite]

But, to get back to my point. If you were playing an online game of chess (where rules are not common knowledge), and the you complained to the game developer of chess that the queen was OP because the rules hadn't said it could move more than one space at a time and the other player was moving it the full distance.

(The rules are poorly defined in this hypothetical, so there is an argument over whether the queen should move one space, or all the way like it does)

One side says "the king only moves one square at time, so obviously the queen is meant to be the same"

Other side says "the game lets me move it as far as I like"

The game developer semi acknowledges that it is a bug but unless someone can show it is game breaking he won't change it.

If the people who want 1 space queens only play with the queen moving one space, and the other team uses long moves... Obviously the team who does long moves will have an advantage.

It would only be shown to be game breaking if it causes problems when both are using it.

[gaunt lark]

MHD-3426

[vapid wagon]

Bro dudes lost?! Oof…

[gaunt lark]

😞

[vapid wagon]

Insane, some of the best teams that have been on 20+ game win streaks are losing solely due to bug exploit.

[gaunt lark]

We did win the match that started this thread (2 weeks ago), in spite of the exploit. And tied the match we had with the impulse bug exploit, I believe.

But hey, nobody's perfect.

Even the Brodudes 😉

[vapid wagon]

Can’t win them all 😦

I’m sure Likapa’s day will come eventually. But boy oh boy they will have to earn it

[cursive lynx]

Love how this threat is full of braindead morons saying "It's not akshually a game breaking bug!" Despite being shown proof that it is.

[balmy remnant]

👍

[simple kite]

Ok, having reread this I actually think we are more closely aligned than I thought.

I will agree that if one team uses it and the other doesn't and the one who doesn't routinely gets smashed - then that shows there is no option but to use gate refreshes. (ie, gate refreshing becomes the only way to use the flag)

However I would argue that isn't really surprising, and gate refreshing has always been a key part of Hades Star, even in Dark Nebula. The gate is a safe haven where you can refresh your hull, and change your module load out to new modules. This basically removed the barrage of gate spam we saw - with alpha drones, kidnapping, barrier turtling refreshes etc... which were - not game breaking, but essentially non optional builds at high level.

On the same token, if proven it is much more powerful to gate spam, that does not prove it to game breaking. It can only be proven to be game breaking when both sides use it and there are still fundamental problems with it.

Gate refreshing is still very much in Dark Nebula, just to different modules, keeping track of which modules are in cooldown for you and your enemy is a key part of management, so you know what their options are for hitting you.

The flag can't change its modules, so it's not equivalent to a battleship in this sense - or a squishy. It is one ship, with a predefined loadout that scales as it is levelled. Gate refreshing doesn't necessarily prove that gate refreshing is inherently overpowered, it may point to modules like floating shield and cataclysm being overpowered. Maybe these modules should be made like genesis and enrich - use once modules for the flag that you have to choose tactically when to best push the button on, they could even be made even more powerful to compensate for this. Ie, you have to spend the game preparing for that cataclysm strike you know that is eventually coming, you only use that floating shield when you really really need it.

[gaunt lark]

I would expect that from a functionality perspective, fixing one should fix the other.
If those flagship modules should be rebalanced to have a longer refresh time, e.g. 1x per WS (and I will not weigh in on what is appropriate there since it is outside of the realm of my experience, I'll just leave it as a hypothetical for others to debate), the flagship will need a method to persist the module status upon jumping out of the WS system. Which it can't do right now.
The flagship doesn't have an "owner" or a home system it goes to when it jumps out, or a single person's account that it logs those bits of info to.
If they make that happen, the cooldown time on things like recoil drones should automatically start persisting as well, so at that point it would have to be a conscious decision to change that.

[small thicket]

Yeah, I was a little confused why it felt like an argument when I was on the same page 🤣

I just want confirmation from a dev that it’s intended. If that’s the decision, I’m okay with it.

And then on that note, I would say the Floating Shield should definitely not have a second shield activation per Drop Shield Drone. It should be one and done (partly also because that’s a cryptic mechanic that isn’t actually listed anywhere, even on wiki. You only know about it if you have it or have seen it and asked about why a second shield happened.

Cataclysm isn’t inherently overpowered, but maybe something else to counter needs to be more viable, such as a Buff to Laser Turret and Blast Shield (because those are already too weak for their own reasons. Two birds one stone)

[simple kite]

Another option would be to increase the recoil teleport to 12h (so 24h round trip) - this would reduce the rate at which the long range spam can be done, give more warning to the enemy and reduce the rate at which long range spam could be done.

This is likely an easier fix than the cooldown timers as it is presumably just adjusting the variable rather than having to account for the cooldown tracking.

Perhaps cataclysm could have a 2h warning like destiny too.

[small thicket]

I just think Floating Shield shouldn’t have a second activation, and I would be on board with Cata having a 2hr launch delay

[simple kite]

yes I agree with this

[simple kite]

or maybe it can have a cooldown timer so there is an opportunity to destroy it between refreshes

[small thicket]

I dunno.. isn’t max level Floating Shield 35k?

Why does it need a second one? Seems OP to me

[simple kite]

I mean like regular shields

where there is a gap

with no shield

[small thicket]

I don’t follow

Floating Shield’s Drone has a hull

[simple kite]

I mean, so ally shield has 20h cooldown, but 16h activation

there are 4 hours of no shield

so floating shield lasts for 50 hours, maybe it should be 20h activate with 30h cooldown

[small thicket]

Oh like Ally has

Yeh

I just think it shouldn’t at all

It’s 35k, that’s 3x Ally 12

[simple kite]

yeah, I mean, I think that only one use makes sense (Especially as it's not mentioned anywhere you can do this)

but having a gap in the cooldown period would still be a massive improvement

[small thicket]

Well I’m speaking in terms of FS refresh being allowed. In that case, the Floating Shield doesn’t need a second use

Per use

That’s what i think is OP

[gaunt lark]

Since I'm less familiar with these mods, if there's a difference in the cooldown for them vs others, I may not be aware of it.

But as it stands now, even with a 48h cooldown, and I expect even with a 1x use restriction, unless that period or restriction prevented the flagship from moving to the gate, as soon as it jumped out and back into the WS, the cooldown would be over.

The modules themselves do seem to be causing issues that would benefit from being rebalanced, per what I am reading here.

But the bug is that the flagship mod cooldown status doesn't persist. It's being used as "flagship refresh."

[onyx parrot]

@ripe sail can we get an official response wrt this?

As a leader of my corporation I am conflicted to encourage my players to use a game breaking exploit which violates the ToS or to play honourable and risk being crushed again by opponents who justify it as a known and intended mechanism and a 4 month old part of game meta which everyone is already aware of

[vapid wagon]

@ripe sail Likapa is in the same boat, although @umbral path is the supreme leader, i am the ambassador.

[simple kite]

1. I think this should be changed and the arguments in this thread are compelling for it not making good gameplay
2. I have never used this functionality in white star
3. Even if it is a bug, using it is not a violation of the terms of service. The terms of service refer to using third party software to exploit a bug (so this is stuff like when people used macros to unload shipments only their planets while doing relay to get them shipped for zero hydro - it wasn't possible to do without macros because it required instant keystrokes)
4. The game does not state that the flag modules should remain in cooldown after jumping out and back in again, (in fact, I am trying to remember if it states that your battleship modules have global cooldown) - nearly all behaviours are learned by playing the game and seeing what happens. Most players (who are not on HSO) would have just discovered their flag ship modules reset after jumping in and out and would just assume that is how it is meant to be.
5. This behaviour has existed in DN for a year and was documented as "flagship behaviour" during the community testing and many understood it at the time to be how it was meant to behave.
6. Choosing this as a hill to die on is only going to harm yourself and your corp. It is clear at this point that many corps out here are using the flag in this way. You may not like it, it may not be good for gameplay, but it's not going to be fixed anytime soon. The fact is it has been known to be how the flag behaves since before Dark Nebula launched and has not been fixed, and Andreas's previous comment implies strongly he - at the time of writing - did not consider it an issue worth fixing. You can choose not to use it and fight with one arm behind your back, and fair enough, it's your right. But when: a) not everyone agrees it's wrong and b) even teams who think it is wrong have no qualms about using it - what are you gaining by not doing the same? Honour in the space ships game on your phone?

[solar seal]

There have been many matches in OGHS where corps spoke prior to matches starting and laying down rules and asking if the other team will agree.

Some do, some don't. Play commences

I for one would feel bad about using the Flagship the way it was used in the match @caprican and @raven lodge posted.

#1227370049388417064 message

But I do not feel bad about using it exclusively to spam recoil drones. They have a 1/3 of the map range. A long delay in both recoil to and from destination. And are incredibly weak. They can't be considered more than a deterrent.

Now if I had access to cataclysm and floating shield. And it was used against me. I would use it back. Especially since it's not against ToS. And it's the equivalent of playing without using a quarter of the available options.

Like sending in only 5 BS, because one thinks the 10v is game breaking.

But this does highlight the many things brought up by @simple kite @small thicket and myself.

1. flagship needs to be rebalanced in some small form that is hard to define.

2. flagship and corp WS matchmaking still needs to be investigated

3. other mods need to be buffed in order to be worth using, specifically in the very situation to counter cataclysm and floating shield.

[raven lodge]

It’s actually more akin to a bug where if 1 of the 10 people scanning leaves the corp, it randomly picks another play in Corp, adds them to the scan and then when the match is made the player who left can come back and be added to the star as an 11th player.

This isn’t like it’s some option that people aren’t using. This is an unintended BUG (something that is broken and doesn’t work as designed)

[gaunt lark]

Just because the game doesn't state those things to us as players doesn't mean they aren't captured in the GDD.
Assuming Parallel Space has some sort of producer doing their job.
Are they going to show us the GDD? No. But it's what they should have been writing their test cases against.

We are all players talking about how this is impacting us.

But we are also using a piece of software that was intentionally designed, whose design was presumably documented by its creators, and which is not behaving according to its design.

What we do with the software defects is clearly a very long thread. And how important they are to the developers to resolve is up to them. We don't know all the things in their backlog.

But at the end of the day, theoretically we are trying to report a bug, software not performing as designed - not software not performing as we want.

[small thicket]

It’s also a gray area because it’s not even that it’s written anywhere that it ought to be one, or the other. Just that a flagship entering a system is spawned as a full health unit with all mods ready.

The unit that is spawned in has no bearing whatsoever on the one that left the system. That’s the way I see it, though I’m not a coder. It’s simply “spawn this unit”

Maybe the Flagship Summon button ought to have a cooldown. Until it does, this isn’t a bug, as in a glitch in the matrix. It’s an oversight.

Now, if the Dev comes out and says this feature will remain, IMO that’s fine - although I do think MMR values and a couple modules need to be balanced accordingly.

The reality is, WS needs a little more interest, and this could provide it. Just, the playing field does need another look with regards to balance

High level corps are cheesing MMR with low level corps with low level flagship.

IMO, any opponent who is cheesing MMR with a low level flagship … that corp should face the consequences of Flagship refresh abuse.

If a high level flagship isn’t worth the MMR, then maybe this … exploit? Balances it?

That’s me playing devil’s advocate. I still don’t like FS Refresh abuse

[gaunt lark]

This is most likely exactly how it is working, from a technical perspective.
But since they have said it's a "bug" or not intended behavior, it seems that the intent is for FS cool downs to persist the same way players' do.

[small thicket]

They’ve said it’s unintended? I missed that

[gaunt lark]

Lemme scroll a min

[gaunt lark]

Moderator confirmed with devs "it's a bug"

[gaunt lark]

Devs responded: if you felt this bug broke the match...

[small thicket]

Yeah so they’ve addressed it as a bug. That’s a start

Whether they’ll fix it, i dunno

I think it’s up to the community to choose how to handle it, until it gets changed

[gaunt lark]

Right, or when.
Because strategies are being built around it.
So if this is our new normal for a while at least, it would be nice to know how long.

[small thicket]

HS devs use the word bug very loosely though tbf

[gaunt lark]

That's because I am not their producer

[small thicket]

Unintended = bug, by their definition

[gaunt lark]

The thought of their backlog gives me anxiety

[small thicket]

I think people should abuse FS Refresh vs teams that created new corps for small Flagship mmr cheese

[gaunt lark]

There are so many ways to mess with the system without technically straying out of any bounds that I can't even keep track. 😮‍💨

I feel a little sorry for the devs and mods who are going to have to try to parse a lot of debating to hopefully get some helpful information about the actual defect we've tried to highlight with the actual examples that did manage to get shared.

[small thicket]

The earlier posts in this thread sum it up pretty good

Then there’s a bunch of arguing that can be skipped

Then there are reiterations, and a couple solutions posted. Pretty easy to skim through

[gaunt lark]

😁👍

[simple kite]

Well I am about to be the case test of a catalyst/floating shield flag Vs a flag with neither. We just matched a flag 9 corp with flag 5. And looking at the previous match they will gate spam with multiple floating shields.

We matched the #1 Elo team.

[small thicket]

Which corp?

I haven’t looked at an updated ELO ranking recently

[small thicket]

I wonder where our ELO would be if our slot 2 was a little more consistent..

[unreal obsidian]

Damn we dropped to 8th, I loathe this Flagship glitch

[simple kite]

This only uses best result

[simple kite]

We will try to win to get you +1 place

My implementation has tiny differences to Caprican's (I think I use Elo at the start of match and his uses the Elo at the end, or some difference on how we manage the discard for concurrent games) but l but we are usually still very close in scores.

[small thicket]

I don’t fully understand elo. Toughest opponent beaten, is what determines it?

[simple kite]

So every team has an Elo score (a team starts out on 1200 at zero games)

The difference between their scores determines the likelihood of who beats who. If the difference is big, then the higher team will get a small adjustment up if they win, but a big adjustment down if they lose.

The opposite for the lower ranked team.

Draw will negatively affect higher ranked team, and positively affect lower ranked, but to a smaller degree.

Teams closely matched will see similar +/- change depending on win/loss

[small thicket]

I don’t think we have a bot that does this in our server

[simple kite]

Assuming all corps had equal tech, the ranking would have stabilised by now. However what we are seeing is the various tiers mixed in (so teams like Hinterm Mond/BSO are not "weaker" than say Brodudes - they are too many degrees of separation for the order to have been found)

[small thicket]

What place is my corp in, out of curiosity?

[simple kite]

Caprican has a bot that does this and can be installed on any server

[small thicket]

I definitely see a few corps up there in the rankings that seem a little out of place

[simple kite]

I think the way to look at it, is to look at the teams you know are of a similar tech level and use their subset of the rankings

[small thicket]

We must be in a weird level pocket. All those corps in that top 50 list seem to be way higher, or way lower level

[simple kite]

#1 in your tier then 😂

[small thicket]

I guess 🤣

I’m not entirely familiar with all of these corps in the top 50 though. A bunch, who I thought would be higher than they are

Guess I haven’t been paying as much attention since DN

[simple kite]

Legion being absent is weird

[small thicket]

Yeah they’ve been consistently winning, haven’t they?

I know we’ve climbed recently. I saw a couple months ago we were around #34

Some other ranking system had us top 10

[simple kite]

Turns out: no

But theor quality of opponent is probably the highest

[small thicket]

Wow they match Hinterm Mond a lot lol

[simple kite]

Yeah, I have some data (not easily available ATM) where I ranked teams with common opponents. And BSO, Hinterm Mond and Legion were basically all at the top on common pools

[small thicket]

That’s probably what I saw much earlier in DN

and I think it basically went off ogHS results since DN was new

[simple kite]

Moved Elo chat here so not to further derail (although i think the flag discussion had kind of reached the end)

#1199302656540295208 message

[simple kite]

My test case isn't going favourably for team "op flag mismatch will break game"

But I guess we'll see what happens in 48h when it comes to round 2

I'm beginning to think the #1 Elo position may be connected to all the 1xp starter accounts which have been joining our corp since the match started, and the fact their ships all headed to the sector I then I wrote that our squishies would go to in the in game WS chat.

[small thicket]

I thought they can only view it if they have a WS scanner

Video cut out before seeing it resolve. I’m guessing you Destiny-ported to that location and also Barriered to kill it?

[simple kite]

Haha, no the video showed it. Double barrier instakill.

Just happens so fast

[small thicket]

Oh my phone was being a dil hole then

[simple kite]

They are unlikely to let us kill their flag so easily next round, do I think that will be the test of how fair or unfair the mismatch is. I think we were fortunate they treated us like fools.

[vapid wagon]

@small thicket floating shield has two charges?

Can you explain how it works plz

[small thicket]

It deploys a shield immediately, and then once it’s depleted, the person I think who summoned the flagship? can “activate” it again to deploy a secondary shield of the same value

So the best way to get rid of it is to destroy the hull, so AOE. Super annoying

[cedar spear]

#1227370049388417064 message

You didn't read really well videos of star the star ID and other star ID posted near the beginning unless you didn't scroll that far

[umbral path]

@empty ether Thank you

[onyx parrot]

@empty ether Thank you!!!

[vapid wagon]

Yay!

[daring cedar]

@empty ether Thank you

[small thicket]

@empty ether 🚁🎉

[solar seal]

A rare moment where two very different sides of the same exploit are all happy with the final result

[vapid wagon]

ITS a big step in the right direction, gotta see its actual effects on gameplay before i get back to crying about it

[simple kite]

It is no longer an exploit now. The update has changed the recoil time and flag cooldown rather than make the flagship modules cooldowns persist, so this behaviour can no longer be argued to be exploiting a bug.

[vapid wagon]

lets chime in on the differace yall have noticed.

so far im happy, my biggest gripes are gone

[manic valley]

I think that fixed it.

[solar seal]

Like the developer, as well as the server admins have said.

Star chart.

Name the star identifier please

Also, if persistent cool downs was the goal. It would have been implemented. It wasn't. So honestly forget about persistent cool downs and discuss other avenues of addressing issues.

This horse has been beaten so hard, it's starting to look like a dead donkey at this point

[manic valley]

🤣

[minor zenith]

Lmao

[deep sierra]

I'm sorry I missed it lol 😂

[random basin]

This whitestar has a flagship jump out and return in 2h, even tho cooldown is stated as updated to 8h.

[simple kite]

Yeah we had a 2 hour cooldown in our white star, so I wasn't sure if the 8 hours meant from jump in to next jump in and it was still 2 hours from jump out to jump in (so long as that wasn't faster than 8 hours jump in to jump in)

Reading the blog update it does say "8 hours after jumping out" so it does seem this is a bug.

[vapid wagon]

@empty ether

[hallow marlin]

Damn, aren't you going fix The bug? @empty ether

[cedar prairie]

no they want the game to die so everyone plays battleship athena which is probably gonna flop like apollo

[solar seal]

Ding ding ding. We have a winner.

What do you call a dev who has a successful mobile game that hates his creation because it's not what he envisioned, even though his players like it better than the game he keeps trying to and failing to even launch?

[vapid wagon]

Perfectly articulated.

But it’s been fixed again, all is right in the world

[solar seal]

That's good to hear. But I keep thinking of a boy and a finger and a hole in the dyke. 😂

[vapid wagon]

LMFAO!

[frank narwhal]

Does this mean that when a flagship jumps out, an 8h timer starts as soon as it jumps out, before it can jump in again?

[vapid wagon]

Yes

[vapid wagon]

Prepare for a new update soon, from me

[coral sage]

"nerf high level fs" 😄

[vapid wagon]

Lmao. I’ll gather my thoughts and post soonish

[solar seal]

Hard to distinguish your timeline from Andreas' timeline 😂

[vapid wagon]

Real asf

[vapid wagon]

I don’t think the FS being able to turn every planet sector into a super fortress is very fair.
Like 1, sure why not. But refreshing mods and moving to the next is very difficult to deal with

[vapid wagon]

We just fought the strongest team in the game, BSO.
In the match, the opponent took advantage of the reduced cooldown time for the flagship to stack their defenses. If players' ships have global cooldowns, then the flagship, which is more powerful than a player battleship, should as well. The FS should be a powerful tool meant to be used in a strategic and tactical way, not a crutch. As it stands, there's very little reason not to spam your FS mods next to gate - and it absolutely breaks the balance of high level game play. Our team has just come off a 42 game winning streak - we don't use the FS this way, and it is possible to win consistently without exploiting the reduced cooldown time.
BSO was able to produce 32 relics on their P1, only using genriched hydro from P1, which isn't a problem; they played long enough to have high level mods. The problem is that the FS makes it near impossible to contest the match in a meaningful way. I get it, attacking their P1 should be dangerous but they should be forced to decide if they want to use all their FS mods to defend P1 or to push us instead. You shouldn't be able to do both.

Their FS just makes trips back and forth putting more area shields, dart launchers and recoil drones making it very difficult to stop their production. Call me delusional if you'd like but I feel like we won the first 2 engagments but literally could not contest their P1 because it was far too heavily fortified with 2 area shields, recoil drones, dart launchers and 3 fat blast shield BS's standing around.”

I suggest making the FS mods a global cooldown just like the BS mods, OR changing the FS jump cooldown from 8 hours, to whatever the shortest cooldown for any of its mods may be.
This would help balance the gameplay and make it more competitive and strategic.

here is the full WS https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T2HM56OaH-s&ab_channel=KestraAkadi

close up of the super fortress P1.

[minor zenith]

Agreed 💯

[vapid wagon]

REPLAY IS STILL LIVE IN LIKAPA. FDX-1893, come see for yourself

[vapid wagon]

@empty ether @ripe sail @cloud lichen @tight narwhal

[gloomy inlet]

uh oh

[manic valley]

I would argue that the Flag should never be allowed to jump out. Once it’s on the field, it stays on the field until destroyed or match over

Then we might actually see someone use the Cargo Repair

[vapid wagon]

this is a dang good idea

[small thicket]

Yup I agree

[crisp spire]

agree, been saying that for long about fs cd

[solar seal]

I agree with everything, but one tiny detail.

I think using p1 should afford players more resources to commit to a full on assault. Even without FS being a fortress.

But the rest I find myself agreeing. Even though I use to disagree. When FS is low/mid level. Refreshing really isnt that game breaking. But throwing everything all together really adds up.

I do like the solution of not letting FS jump out. But feel as though the cooldowns should be reduced by 10% or so. And movement of the ship itself be slower.

If it's a massive carrier type ship. Then it should be slow as a carrier type ship. Col, Phoenix, bomber, etc.

[vapid wagon]

Very good points

[solar seal]

I mean it's main battery is garbage for a reason. So it doesn't need the movement speed to be able to run a weapon to a battlefield like battleships do.

Battleships are weapons first, resources(modules) second

Flagship is resources first

[vapid wagon]

100% mate

[ivory sundial]

Move to suggestions
But fully agree

[vapid wagon]

If you guys think that matters, I’ll do it when I get home

[daring cedar]

I thought this was patched.

This is in YEL-2522

[simple kite]

Flag cooldown was changed to 8 hours but the flag does not have global cooldowns on its modules. This is the intended design.

[daring cedar]

badly designed then

[gloomy inlet]

It's frustrating to watch others exploit that over and over.

[coral sage]

try to break this lol

"Auscorp is mining, please don't disturb"

[simple kite]

Use pulse lvl 15

[balmy rose]

I dont think you're supposed to be able to disrupt relic production on the lowest and closest to gate planet

[simple kite]

If that's the case then whoever has the highest genrich will have an even bigger advantage each game.

I think that it could be added that floating shield can't be placed within 440AU of an allied floating shield base station.

[balmy rose]

Or the other team could fight for a P5...

[coral sage]

i'm sure no one thought of that

[simple kite]

Yes but if you have an invincible P1, Vs a vulnerable p5 that's a very unbalanced set up if it's the intended design

[coral sage]

that's exactly the core of the fortified p1 strategy, it's based on raiding the enemy's more exposed position with most of your ships, while your relic ops are secure
also see the match the picture was taken from: Stargate-Auscorp

this doesn't mean you can't fortify a p5 in a similar way, if it's adjacent to the p1

[balmy rose]

I finally watched the replay because the game kept crashing and SG seems to have clearly lost in a fair battle in the central area of the map and correct me if I'm wrong in observation but..

SG was coordinating an attack on like one Auscorp ship with barrier, alpha and bond,
They spent two leaps, more than 3 bonds, two teleports and even more modules just on this one battleship with alpha shield and then their entire fleet got wrecked by rockets and mining drones while sitting idly instead of relaunching an offensive or diverting to defense of the P5. Somehow one of the battleships got destroyed by mining drones,

Seems like a fight fairly lost to me.

[simple kite]

I'm not commenting on the match. I'm commenting on the idea that the game should be designed that the P1 is an invincible fortress that can never be broken.

[balmy rose]

huh, wrong person, mb

The P1 strat is novel to say the least but its far from invincible. I've ran with it, it has its drawbacks and advantages. Theres many teams that lose with this way of playing.

[coral sage]

ships fighting in the middle in these games is a bit of a sideshow, it's the hard hitting attacks on RPs that decide who wins, generally through leaps
now try to plan an attack on a triple fort while the enemy is attacking your vanilla fort

[balmy rose]

and more ships could be allocated to the defense if they weren't used for the, from what I observe... "useless" offensive. I don't necessarily mean to disrespect.

[coral sage]

the p1 strat is not new and has been used with success by big dogs that have a mining tech advantage and/or have confidence in their raiding ability

[balmy rose]

time is relative

[balmy rose]

with an equal amount of ships, it is vulnerable and you definitely cannot hold a P5 but I don't see why you can't expand to a relic 5 by genriching a P1 initially after a battle has been fought and you have gained an advantage in numbers

[simple kite]

If a P1 is - assuming no blunders - invincible, then it will be trivial to deny a p5. I'm this situation the team who can pull the highest hydro will always win and the game is decided before it's started.

A P1 should be very difficult to attack, but not functionally almost invincible.

[glossy gulch]

Apparently in Auscorp-Continuum Match. Conti tried P5 floating shield reset but failed

[low pendant]

I'd like to put a on this one, but can't seem to figure out how. Role restriction?

[low pendant]

Thanks for assuming my incompetency. 🙂 🙂 🙂

[cloud lichen]

well. I have no idea why that doesn't work

Perhaps restart your discord client

[low pendant]

No joy on the restart (PC).

Android

Maybe a moderator has to start it?

[cloud lichen]

I reacted, try now?

[cloud lichen]

oh I see the issue (and fixed it)

[low pendant]

Thanks!

[vapid wagon]

Bump again

[thorn halo]

This has been already fixed

[twilit tundra]

And We’ll fix it again!

[coral sage]

no? they played with fs jump cooldown time to make it less spammy, but that's not enough

[gloomy inlet]

My view is, if the players cannot do it, why can the flagship?

[glossy gulch]

Flagship spawning model I believe

Or the FS itself is not even programmed to keep the mods into global cooldown

[fiery zephyr]

Found a Corp doing the Drone spam.

[gloomy inlet]

Lots of them...

[glossy gulch]

All High Tech WS did this tbf

[simple kite]

There are many corps doing this, and it's not cheating to do so.

We can have a discussion about whether it's a good game mechanic or not, and whether the flag should have persistent cooldowns like player modules - this is a valid discussion. However reporting teams for using the gate refresh isn't reporting a crime, it's reporting a team using the mechanic as the developer implemented it.

[warped sentinel]

Bump.
Still a pressing issue.

[vapid wagon]

Flagship Bug represents a severe flaw that undermines the core gameplay experience. It’s disappointing that teams have built their strategies around an unintended exploit. Moreover, the flagship’s behavior stands apart from that of every other ship, failing to fulfill the captivating “asyncronious white stars” promise touted by Dark Nebula release. This discrepancy not only skews competitive dynamics but also raises concerns about the game's overall consistency and balance, making a prompt fix essential.

Rumor has it next game update will address some of our suggestions and whatnot

So I thought i would revisit this

[vapid wagon]

Ayooooo.

Thanks

[glossy gulch]

Yey

No more floating shield stacking shenanigans

[balmy remnant]

I actually spawned in that WS, as I recall, 5 or 6 sets. After that, they started disappearing faster than they spawned.
It was mostly for fun. We won anyway 🙂

Hmmm.... this picture not ftom my WS

I found! It's me! #1227370049388417064 message

[glossy gulch]

Meanwhile...