#ladaoista
full plinth
lone lion
si j'aurais*
ocean kayak
si j'aurais*
As well, since its une phrase interrogative indirecte, on enlève le point d'interrogation a la fin.
La forme directe serais "Aurais-je pu faire qqch de plus?"
lone lion
As well, since its une phrase interrogative indirecte, on enlève le point d'inte...
you can remove it, but it still works as a question so there's nothing shocking about having a question mark there
ocean kayak
you can remove it, but it still works as a question so there's nothing shocking ...
no, its grammatically wrong
lone lion
that's not my point. A question mark there is just fine, people do it all the time
ocean kayak
Mh
lone lion
besides it's not grammar and doesn't impact the meaning or the interpretation in any way
ocean kayak
This server is to help people with their french though
lone lion
yes, with helpful remarks, not nitpicking
ocean kayak
besides it's not grammar and doesn't impact the meaning or the interpretation in...
Sure
But a l'oral it would sound weird to ask it as a question, they want to sound as natural as possible
lone lion
the intonation would be rising and interrogative in that sentence orally as well
even if “technically” not a question
ocean kayak
It is a question just not a direct one
ocean kayak
Cus its not directe 
lone lion
and?
thorn pewter
no, its grammatically wrong
heya, so am I right to understand that your point of view is that adding a "?" is part of French grammar
and so using it there, since technically the sentence is declarative, would be wrong?
ocean kayak
heya, so am I right to understand that your point of view is that adding a "?" i...
Basically theres 2 types of interrogatives in french
les indirectes et les directes
ocean kayak
celle-ci est une indirecte alors ya pas d'inversion sujet-verbe et on enleve le point d'intterrogation
thorn pewter
ok, so I'm still unclear about what your answer is
ocean kayak
je me demande si j'aurais pu faire quelque chose de plus.
thorn pewter
do you consider punctuation to be a part of grammar?
ocean kayak
It is
thorn pewter
so, that's where you and Eowyn (and I) disagree
grammar is, in its most fundamental aspect, part of Language
written language is a way of representing Language
but they're not really the same
the way people speak, Language, is what we all learn as children
you don't need to know how to write to speak a Language
ocean kayak
Si tu veux je peux t'envoyer mes fiches / cours sur l'interrogation
thorn pewter
oh I don't need them
written language conventions dictate that you should use a period (.) at the end of declarative statements and a question mark (?) at the end of interrogative statements
but that has nothing to do with the way Language is spoken
in an exam setting, should you follow the conventions? yes, absolutely! the points you bring up are absolutely legitimate in those cases
ocean kayak
in an *__exam__* setting, should you follow the conventions? yes, absolutely! th...
ouiii
thorn pewter
but, when it comes to calling something wrong without specifying that it only applies to the formal written forms, that's also something to avoid
ocean kayak
But you wouldnt add the intonation in the correct sentence as well, since the point d'interrogation adds an intonation
lone lion
formal French is generally what's taught as correct but actual spoken/written French is very different, and in the server we focus on teaching that reality, and we avoid focusing too much on formal rules that matter very rarely
like I said above, I would totally say that sentence with an interrogative intonation
ocean kayak
Idk man
lone lion
well I do
at the end of the day it really doesn't matter whether you use a question mark or a period there
thorn pewter
But you wouldnt add the intonation in the correct sentence as well, since the po...
The ? doesn't really indicate intonation. There are certain patterns in intonation associated with interrogatives, but question intonation cannot be summarized by rising pitch at the end of a sentence only
lone lion
yeah it's often bouncy
thorn pewter
Also, rising intonation, if that's the only purpose of a ? would then require a ? to be used in certain dialects of English where rising intonation is used at the ends of declarative sentences (valley girl, Australian English)
ocean kayak
Im australian and we don't pitch our voices up like a sentence, it's kinda different
thorn pewter
Well, if I'm not mistaken, your point was that a ? was grammatically wrong and it was wrong because the sentence intonation wouldn't match
Did I misunderstand?
ocean kayak
You said you'd put the questionning intonation therefore you'd put a question mark but now you'er saying the opposit
ocean kayak
Well, if I'm not mistaken, your point was that a ? was grammatically wrong and i...
No it's also because of the rules of french
thorn pewter
Which rules?
ocean kayak
Grammar rules
thorn pewter
Ok, so, I think we need to find some common ground here
When you speak do you use punctuation?
thorn pewter
That's not what I asked
Do you literally say "period", "question mark" etc.
I suspect you don't, it's a rhetorical question
The reason I'm asking it is because there is a clear distinction between written and spoken language
At the end of the day, when we teach a language, while it can be important to teach the written form, the "ultimate" form, is the spoken version
language has existed for... who knows how long... maybe 100k years, maybe 500k? I don't think we have clear evidence one way or another
but written language is much more recent
and only VERY VERY recently have most humans been literate
the use of punctuation is FUNDAMENTALLY part of written language
written language is a way to represent, in symbols, the way we speak
sometimes we use a ? when we don't mean a question
just like I did in that sentence, fwiw
grammar is part of spoken language, it is determined by how native speakers express themselves and how other native speakers understand... orally
all punctuation is there for is to help us understand how the sentence should be spoken
sometimes, it makes sense to put a ? even when we're not asking a question
and it doesn't change anything fundamentally about the grammar
narrow wasp
oh i forgot that i put a question mark in it
gaunt slate
And that sparked a debate in which I'm on Eowyn and Andy's side.
In any case, you got your correction.
ocean kayak
And that sparked a debate in which I'm on Eowyn and Andy's side.
In any case, yo...
I don't get it, so the oxford comma isn't a grammar rule?
ocean kayak
sometimes, it makes sense to put a ? even when we're not asking a question
This doesn't change the fact that in a non direct interrogation IN FRENCH you don't put a question mark??
lone lion
Ultimately we're here to teach French as it is spoken and written by real people, not how a handful of authority figures want you to do speak or write it for arbitrary reasons that serve no purpose beyond inducing guilt in people who make mistakes. Rules can be important to teach if learners are going to suffer from not applying them, yes. In this case however, whatever rule exists is wholly unimportant and completely useless. Insisting that this rule is necessary is nothing short of mere pedantry.
So let's please leave it at that and keep our corrections useful to learners in the server moving forward.
thorn pewter
So, I could read that and say "your wrong"?!? Eowyn's wrong? Don't you mean "you're" wrong???? omg you made an error
OR I could read that and say, oh they were trying to represent the way English is spoken and your and you're are pronounced the same
It's the same for the ?
In an academic essay, by all means, please follow "the rules™"
but it's not a big dead to bend the rules in other contexts
thorn pewter
ocean kayak
Bro
the person was asking if they sound natural and putting an intonation there orally/putting a question mark there in written form = doesn't.
thorn pewter
I'd say it does seem perfectly natural in written form
again, it depends on the context
thorn pewter
ok, I mean, you are entitled to your opinion
ocean kayak
Ask a french teacher trust
lone lion
I mean, Andy teaches English for a living. And we've both studied language and taught French here for numerous years. Turning this into an argument of authority is silly at best and doesn't change the fact that nobody cares what punctuation goes at the end of that sentence. Only you care about anyone being "right" here. Our whole argument is that being right doesn't matter in the first place when the overwhelming majority of people are indifferent to a rule