#juliantt
left temple
hmm that should not be the case
there's a whole lot going on with these sounds though, since you know IPA don't mind if I just:
.e
as soon as I can remember the bot command
;é
tulip topazBOT
The story of É and È
The vowel sounds É /e/ and È /ɛ/ fluctuate a lot in current-day French, especially in France. If you're having trouble with them, that's normal!
Traditionally, É /e/ is represented by É, -EZ and -AI, for example "je ferai" /ʒə fə.ʁe/. As for È /ɛ/, it is represented by È, -AIS, -AIT, -AIENT and -ET, for example "je ferais" /ʒə fə.ʁɛ/.
However, many speakers have a merger of the sounds, at least for the word-final vowel. This means that, at the end of words, both vowels tend to become É [e], or an intermediary vowel [e̞~ɛ̝]. All in all, "je ferai" and "je ferais" (and other such cases) are distinguished by a bit less than half of the speakers from France. Some special cases like "j'ai" and "et" are more likely to use an intermediate, “blurry” or fluctuating vowel sound.
However, the merger is blocked by closed syllables. In other words: if the syllable ends in a consonant, it's È not É. Consider "faire", "bête", "j'aime": those normally sound like "fèr" [fɛʁ], "bètt" [bɛt], "jèm" [ʒ‿ɛm].
In francophone countries outside France, the traditional distinction is normally still in use, but may be subject to other dialectal variations (in Canadian French, È /ɛ/ is often realised as AÉ [ae̯]; in Belgian French, Ê can be realised as a long È [ɛː]). Note that the fluctuation between and within dialects can make it a bit difficult to get consistent information from natives about it. Ultimately, it's a semi-important distinction to make. With practice and awareness of the fluctuation, you will be understood in most situations!
-# For phonetics nerds, note that in France, the vowels are typically raised even if they are distinguished, with É /e/ being closer to [ɪ] and È /ɛ/ to [e̞~ɛ̝].
left temple
there
vivid tapir
and should I pronounce words with /ɛ/ as the final sound the way it is or tryna make it sound more like é
light vale
If you just wanna stick to the standard you should probably say it [ɛ]
It's honestly not that important
I have that merger btw
left temple
most European French speakers have the merger, if you want to avoid headaches it's totally fine to merge them
light vale
I wouldn't say most
left temple
it's about 60-70% last I checked
it's hard to measure, especially to distinguish between studies that are restricted to the word-final merger vs not
light vale
it's about 60-70% last I checked
That's crazy bc i live in the south and i hear a lot of ppl with a Northern accent
left temple
not numbers per se but Avanzi's maps give a rough estimate
with the usual caveat associated with statistical maps (I'm an orange pixel in the middle of that deep purple area)
(most likely a sociolectal thing more than regiolectal, since my family hypercorrects a lot)
those maps also show that the situation is different depending on the nature of the ending
it's a mess
light vale
Wait what's that, is it piqué or piquais
light vale
it's a mess
So what do we tell learners? To not worry about it?
left temple
most European French speakers have the merger, if you want to avoid headaches it...
haha I mean, that's what I tell them ↑
it's a good thing to be aware of, but not to pour dozens of hours into (unless you really want to)
formal kettle
It should be noted that this map does not show whether mangerai is pronounced with an é or è sound
left temple
yeah the merged sound is usually closer to [e]
as per my latest analysis of my own speech
I raise all my vowels though so
formal kettle
I meant lots of people use è for both mangerai and mangerais, which also shows as purple on that map
left temple
yep
formal kettle
as per my latest analysis of my *own* speech
/ɪ/ is phonemic? 🤯
left temple
French /e/ is just closer to [ɪ]
/e/ vs /ɛ/ being more accurately /ɪ/ and /e̞/
but this is nerd territory
light vale
as per my latest analysis of my *own* speech
How the hell do you come up with this
light vale
Ah oui
Proout
rich steppe
Hahahah Ça me fait rappeler cette chanson de Francis Cabrel, qui dit "je t'aimais, je t'aime et je t'aimerai".
Mais moi, quand j'étais petit, je trouvais que ça avait aucun sens parce que aimerAIS, dans ma tête de Québécois, j'entends du conditionnel!
J'entends -AlS. Pis là, j'étais là «ben c'est ben plate qu'il dise ça à sa blonde, "je t'aimais, je t'aime et je t'aimerais si… "?» C'est comme du conditionnel hein? Il est pas sûr là?
left temple
c'est marrant j'avais le problème inverse