#indigoadc

1 messages · Page 1 of 1 (latest)

jade umbraBOT
#
Please be patient

Our volunteers look into many questions every day; sometimes it takes them a little while to answer.

Pro tip: you can rename the thread title with `.tr <thread name>`

Make it descriptive, including relevant context, but also to the point. This way you improve your chances of getting a more relevant and specific answer.

tribal ivy
#

on is used instead of nous in colloquial speech but they're just different pronouns

#

if they/them can be used in English to refer to one person, why is it still plural?

#

it'd sound too weird to change that

radiant aspen
#

yes, and also note that by no means does "on = nous", they may sometimes be used to mean the same thing, but there are very fundamental differences

humble iris
pale jay
#

On does not mean nous in sentences like "On nous a vus", or "On m'a volé mon vélo"

meager echo
#

Etymologically, on = homme. And since the noun is singular, the third person singular conjugation is used for the pronoun.
Plus, the pronoun originally refers to a vague, general group/person.

astral coral
# humble iris Do you have some basic examples please (of the fundamental differences)

on can refer to:

  • we
    ex: on est arrivés → we're here
  • people in general
    ex: on court pas dans les couloirs → you shouldn't run in the hallway (in this case, "you" is also impersonal in English and applies to everyone, people should not run in the hallway)
  • someone
    ex: on frappe à la porte → someone is knocking at the door
  • passive voice
    ex: on m'a demandé ça → I was asked this (similar to the someone case: someone asked me this)
  • you or I (rare)
    ex: alors, on est en retard ? → someone's late, uh? (referring to the person you're talking to)
#

"on" is also a lot more informal than "nous"

#

the original meaning of "on" was singular, and just happened to also be used to indicate several actors as well. And over time, it replaced "nous" in casual speech, but that doesn't mean the grammatical person has changed.

humble iris
#

My goodness, I have so much to learn 😂

haughty valley
#

It's similar to why vous and "you" are plural but can refer to a single person

white bloom
white bloom
#

but at least the 2nd person is less ambiguous than the 3rd person

#

de loin

proud ridge
tribal ivy
#

to be neutral you can refer to someone as they

#

but you don't put an s on the verb when you use that

white bloom
tribal ivy
#

its a thing tho

#

bc he and she are gendered

white bloom
#

i dont wanna pull the native speaker card but that sounds incredibly inefficient

tribal ivy
#

idk whats wrong with it

white bloom
#

Well that seems like bountiful amounts of confusing could arise in most contexts

tribal ivy
#

no

white bloom
tribal ivy
#

idk why ur so mad about it

white bloom
#

???

#

IM not?

#

Ive just never head of this before

tribal ivy
#

i looked up "they" in the server and the first use of it was to refer to one person who's gender we don't know

image.png
white bloom
#

man

#

thats messing with my brain bro

#

cuz

#

to me

#

it works another way

#

I mean its like when youre supposed to say If I were instead of If I was except that actually makes sense

#

and thats i learn that english actually has a subjunctive

proud ridge
#

Real proud of your journey buddyyeahthatsjazz

#

Anyway we could keep this thread clear guys

tribal ivy
tribal ivy
#

its also used to refer to multiple ppl ofc

white bloom
white bloom
tribal ivy
#

true

haughty valley
white bloom
astral coral
#

while singular "you" emerged due to French influence

haughty valley
white bloom
proud ridge
proud ridge
#

Yea i got nothing

#

just take the L and leave this thread

astral coral
# proud ridge Wha-? _French_ influence? Ain’t that backwards?

with the Norman conquest, French spread across English nobility. To mimic vouvoiement, "you" which was at the time plural only started being used in the singular to show respect. Over time, "thou" fell out of favor and "you" took its place as sole singular 2d person pronoun

proud ridge
astral coral
#

this was not due to French influence, only using "you" as a singular pronoun was.
conflation was just the way the English language developped on its own after that

proud ridge
#

Hmm

#

A strange species we are

haughty valley
#

A good handful of grammarians and teachers and whatnot got big mad about singular you as well lol

proud ridge
vernal timber
#

singular 'you' functioned the same way as singular 'vous'

haughty valley
# vernal timber source?

The most famous example was George Fox, but it's just a pretty normal part of linguistic change, especially such a big one. Prescriptivists and those that teach things from a primarily prescriptivist viewpoint will tend to lag behind in linguistic evolution and it's not unusual for them to get upset about change and view it as simple errors

vernal timber
#

it didn't reflect an attempt to suppress a changing norm

#

if you read Shakespeare in the earlier part of that century, you can see clearly that you as a singular but formal pronoun equivalent to French vous was completely accepted part of speech

#

George Fox was making an active intervention in the English language to promote Quaker ideals, he wasn't trying to return to suppress a linguistic innovation

#

they weren't lagging behind linguistic evolution but promoting a new standard for the language

#

and in fact this is how Quaker at the time did speak

haughty valley
#

My point was more that this is always a thing that happens, to some degree or another. The issues with "they" largely arose long after it had appeared and been overall accepted in the language, to my knowledge the Quaker issue popped up more (or at least he wrote about it around the time) when people started using "you" universally in the singular, in the 17th century