fowkys

[uncut jetty]

Please be patient

Our volunteers look into many questions every day; sometimes it takes them a little while to answer.

Pro tip: you can rename the thread title with `.tr <thread name>`

Make it descriptive, including relevant context, but also to the point. This way you improve your chances of getting a more relevant and specific answer.

[timber ruin]

Even if "on" is impersonal, it at least refers to people.
"Il", on the other hand, doesn't actually refer to anything. But verbs need a subject so you tack "il" to them (il faut, il y a, etc.).

[ebon tinsel]

So 'on' doesnt have sujet logique? Just the 'real' subject(i dont know how to say it in french)?

[timber ruin]

Yup. On is originally homme, so it's a real subject.

[ebon tinsel]

Thanks!

[timber ruin]

And you're right in that il has the actual subject after the verb.
Quelque chose se passe vs. il se passe quelque chose.

Impersonal constructions with il are more frequent in literature by the way.

[pure ingot]

While « on » is not impersonal, it does share some traits

so « on » is what we call an indefinite pronoun because it's not referring to someone specific

If I say « On parle français ici », I'm really talking about an unknown group of people that I consider as one unit under « on »

So while the referent isn't clear, it still refers to something

Whereas if I say « Il pleut maintenant », I'm not really talking about something. There's no logic that'll bring me from « il » to something. « il » is really there to conjugate the verb, as far as I'm concerned.

[ebon tinsel]

Thanks! I was reading about why the correct form is “Qu'est-ce qu'il faut” for il faut, but “Qu'est-ce qui s'est passé” for il est passé. So these impersonal questions arise. It seems that il faut is quite unique, it's something like an 'absolutely impersonal' construction, right?

[pure ingot]

Yeah

« falloir » cannot be used non-impersonally

whereas « se passer » can

[ebon tinsel]

Thank you