intraarcana

[wet reef]

Please be patient

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[woven kayak]

It was answered for me « où » is correct but basically I’m now more confused about these different ways of connecting in French:

où
vs
dont
vs
ce qui

[junior dawn]

Ce qui is roughly "that which", it acts as a subject — when used to "link", the "ce" replaces whatever the subject is, and the "qui" indicates it's the subject of whatever follows (and thus will always(?) be a verb)
"Dont" indicates that we're using "que" but there would've been a trailing "de" later on, usually if not always after the next verb
"Où" obviously can apply to physical locations but also temporal ones

[rain owl]

Also, in general I would suggest you not translate word-for-word especially when it comes to prepositions and relative pronouns because it’ll create a headache

[rain owl]

A verb or an object pronoun for « ce qui » but never a subject yeah, and that verb is always third person singular

[woven kayak]

Would it be poss to get examples of each?

[rain owl]

C’est l’endroit où je vais quand je me sens triste.
That’s the place where/[in/at/to] which I go whenever I feel sad.

C’est l’endroit dont je me souviens quand je me sens triste.
That’s the place [about/of] which I am reminded whenever I feel sad.

Ce qui me rend heureux, c’est cet endroit-là.
What makes me happy is that place there.

[woven kayak]

Ohhhhh

Got it

Thank you!!

[rain owl]

Do you?

Why did I use dont in the second example but où in the first?

Why not que?

[woven kayak]

Seems more clear. Im not sure I could make my own immediately but makes more sense in examples.

[woven kayak]

No idea 🙂

Now that I read them again and think about it, I can’t figure out why it would call for one vs the other.

[rain owl]

Okay, do you know how relative pronouns (que, qui, lequel, dont, où) work?

[woven kayak]

Intuitively yes in Eng and other languages Ive learned but I dont like them in Fr

[rain owl]

Got it

Would you like an explanation on them?

(I'm just going to assume yes)

[woven kayak]

Well sure maybe Im missing sth

[rain owl]

@woven kayak Have fun reading

« où » works just like « à + lequel » in part 3 but for locations.
« C'est le marché où je suis allé hier. » can be deconstructed as « C'est le marché » and « Je suis allé au marché hier ».

I can't explain « ce qui » without you understanding all the above so do tag me once you've finished reading and feel free to ask questions

[woven kayak]

How is all of this supposed to become intuitive for someone?

Lol

[rain owl]

By tons of exposure

[woven kayak]

It’s rather involved compared to other languages I’ve learned…just curious how this developed in Fr, but I’m done reading

[rain owl]

I mean, how did the English system become intuitive to you?

Exposure

[rain owl]

This is the original system actually

[woven kayak]

Wdym?

Latin?

Or?

[rain owl]

The subject/object distinction in French follows the same distinction in Latin

in other Romance languages, this distinction fell apart and gave way to living/non-living like English

[woven kayak]

Oh ok interesting

[rain owl]

English's relative pronouns mainly distinguish between living (who) and non-living (that/which):
Living
(1) The man who I met is kind.
(2) The man who met me is kind.
Non-living
(3) The door that/which I bought is red.
(4) The door that/which interested me is red.

[woven kayak]

Ohhh thats why I was getting confused in French w/this

[junior dawn]

The rules are pretty simple it can just take a while to explain for someone who isn't used to it

[woven kayak]

I was like what the heck, every word I try always seems to be corrected. What am I missing lol

[rain owl]

If I translate this into French, the pronouns instead change by the function of the shared noun in the subordinate clause. Example using the English numbering system above:
Object
(1) L'homme que j'ai rencontré est gentil.
(3) La porte que j'ai achetée est rouge.
Subject
(2) L'homme qui m'a rencontré est gentil.
(4) La porte qui m'intéresse est rouge.

[junior dawn]

Easy to confuse since the question pronouns are animate vs inanimate

Hence the difference between
Qu'est-ce que
Qu'est-ce qui
Qui est-ce que
Qui est-ce qui

[woven kayak]

😵‍💫

[junior dawn]

The first que/qui here is a question pronoun, which indicates whether you're talking about an animate (qui) or inanimate (que)
The second que/qui indicates whether it's the subject (qui) or the object (que) of what follows

[woven kayak]

Well my greatest struggle is maybe these relative pronouns. I talk to myself in french but when i get to these, I just say skip it or say « which » in my head and move on so that’s been frustrating lol

[junior dawn]

Yeah I understand

[rain owl]

Going back to the two examples I mentioned here, I can dissect them like this:
(1) C'est l'endroit où je vais…
=> [Main clause] C'est l'endroit
=> [Subordinate clause] Je vais à l'endroit
(2) C'est l'endroit dont je me souviens…
=> [Main clause] C'est l'endroit
=> [Subordinate clause] Je me souviens de l'endroit

So, we use « où » in the first because the object in the subordinate clause is a place and is indirect under the preposition « à »: « à l'endroit ». Conversely, we use « dont » in the second because the object in the subordinate clause is indirect under the preposition « de »: « de l'endroit ».

[woven kayak]

Dont, que, qui, lequel & co. I just skip so trying to fix that lol

Oh ok

[rain owl]

Okay with that out of the way

What happens if we don't have a noun to replace both in the main or subordinate clause? That's where « ce qui » comes in

[woven kayak]

Yes that instance seems more straightforward to me.

[rain owl]

That « ce » in « ce qui » is just a stand-in used to make « qui » have a clear referent or thing being referenced

Because of that, we tend to translate this as 'what'

« Ce qui m'intéresse, c'est son courage. »
'What interests me, it's his/her courage.'

We can also apply these to the other pronouns

« Ce que je veux, c'est ton âme. »
'What I want, it's your soul.'

« Ce dont je me souviens, c'est sa volonté. »
'What I am reminded of, it's his/her willpower.'

« Ce à quoi je pense, c'est tes buts. »
'What I'm thinking about, it's your goals.'

[woven kayak]

Ohh

It’s too much. I don’t know how I’ll remember all of this lol

[rain owl]

Just take it slow

It took me a while to get used to as well

But I got it in the end

To the point where it even bothers my English lmao

[woven kayak]

Yes the thing is just to remember it takes time.

I admire that French has preserved this for so long over time from Latin!

[signal spruce]

To translate in which I'd think of dans lesquelles first