evedna

[raw sparrow]

Please be patient

Our volunteers look into many questions every day; sometimes it takes them a little while to answer.

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[sharp hollow]

Fortunately, these two have non-pronominal forms:
—> plaindre quelqu'un = to pity or to be sorry for someone
—> marier quelqu'un = to marry someone (in the sense that you are a priest or an officiant marrying someone off)

However, in cases where they don't have a non-pronominal form, you can look at their arguments or the objects that they take. French forbids having two direct objects so if a verb takes two objects, one will be direct and one will be indirect

For « se plaindre », we have two kinds:
—> se plaindre à quelqu'un = to complain to someone
—> se plaindre de quelque chose = to complain about something
Since we already have an indirect object, we can safely assume that « se » is direct.
Same idea for « se marier » :
—> se marier avec quelqu'un = to get married with someone

[strong kindle]

-# note that's getting very technical. 99% of French people don't know the rule and no one cares if you're writing "ils se sont marié" or "ils se sont mariés"

[sharp hollow]

For example, « se souvenir » takes a preposition (je me souviens de toi) so it's a safe bet to say that the pronominal pronoun here is a COD : Elle s'est souvenue de lui.

Actually, I think that all essentially pronominal verbs have the reflexive pronoun as the COD?

I can't think of any where the reflexive pronoun is COI

[strong kindle]

I think so too but don't quote me on that

[sharp hollow]

The only cases where the reflexive is COI is like body part related like « Elle s'est cassé la jambe » but « se casser » here isn't a pronominal-only verb

[gray tendon]

Oh wow, that makes soo much sense! So "se plaindre" really just means "to pity oneself"?

[sharp hollow]

Yeah but sometimes pronominal verbs take on other meanings than its literal one

[gray tendon]

I hear this a lot, but I'm the kind of person who needs to know just for the sake of knowing, just because I'm interested in grammar in general
Especially with French that I've been studying for years and years and I kind of feel like I completed it, except these tiny details

[sharp hollow]

For example, « rappeler » literally means 'to call again'. However, if you need to call something again, you're effectively 'reminding' someone so « rappeler » becomes 'to remind'. Thus, « se rappeler » becomes 'to remember' even though literally it means 'to call oneself again'

[gray tendon]

Is the "se" in the "se rappeler" COI? Because we say "se rappeler qqch", so it takes a COD, the only argument that's left would be COI?

Je me rappelle = je rappelle à moi-même ?

Ils se sont rappelé ?

[sharp hollow]

COD

Do we say « se rappeler qqch » ?

Isn't it « se rappeler de qqch » ?

[gray tendon]

Idk if it takes a preposition, I've heard "je me rappelle que..."

So doesn't that still make it a COD?

[sharp hollow]

Wait let me look at the arguments

Ah yes, it's COI, sorry

I'm hoping between threads

It's « rappeler qqch à qqn », « se » here represents « à qqn »

[gray tendon]

Apparently it takes "de" sometimes

[gray tendon]

So it would be "ils se sont rappelé"

[sharp hollow]

It would

[gray tendon]

I wish they'd make a guide with explanations on these

I feel like I know everything except this

🥲

[sharp hollow]

Thing is that there's just so much to cover when you're dealing with verbs because the transivity of a verb depends on that verb

[sharp hollow]

I've just read up on this and apparently the 'correct' way is « se rappeler qqch » but because of influence from « se souvenir de qqch », francophones use « de » with « se rappeler » to create « se rappeler de qqch »

Language evolution be like

[strong kindle]

I'd say se rappeler de qq chose is more common now

[gray tendon]

So it's one of those things that people say but it's actually not "correct"

[strong kindle]

correct doesn't mean shit

as long as people use it

[sharp hollow]

It's about what people use not what's actually correct

Because your interaction is going to be with people, not robots

and people say wrong things all the time

[gray tendon]

What if you're preparing for an exam

Or to be a FLE teacher

[sharp hollow]

A lot of linguistic evolution comes down to people saying the 'wrong' thing to the point where it becomes right

[sharp hollow]

There, you do need to know the rules but it's a case of knowing when to do something and when not to

It's all about shades of grey and not black-and-white

[gray tendon]

I get it that the language is evolving and stuff, I'm just interested in the "official" rules before people started using things however they liked

And idk where to find that so I'm here to ask in case anyone knows 😬