#loqo6043
karmic sonnet
honest steppe
ask your question here
gentle juniper
okay so like
Identity politics and "race" discussions are an everyday thing in the USA and I was wondering like, are there like hyphenated identities in France?
like
French-African?
or African French
or does the culture attempt to maintain a notion of like "everyone here is french"
honest steppe
they're based on nationality, not skin color.
someone's whose French and Algerian is just that, French and Algerian.
We're rarely talking about Africa as a whole, that's a gigantic continent. Usually specific countries, like DRC, Algeria, Morocco, etc.
The ethnicity thing is mostly american for all I know. Most political discussions regarding this topic in France are about immigration, not ethnicity.
gentle juniper
mmm ok
honest steppe
you can just use blanc/noir/métis/etc for skin color
gentle juniper
is the national identity like a point of contention for those people in france?
like are there a wide variety of social issues around that like in the USA
honest steppe
not as pronounced as the USA, but a big topic nonetheless
gentle juniper
it's interesting, because like(and please forgive my ignorance) I don't know why but for example my coworker from Cameroon
I just think of him as a Frenchman
like is that wrong
mon ami j'ai bu mais
je me le demandais
honest steppe
like is that wrong
It's not, many people think like that.
gentle juniper
like here, identity politics and culture is a very specific thing to make sure people are divided butt when I watch these interviews of the french in France I don't think of that hyphen
je ne sais pas
mais c'est intéressant
bienvenu au monde de les etats-unis 
honest steppe
bienvenu au monde de les etats-unis <a:ablobgiggle:817358801279123468>
it's not as pronounced for sure, but if you watch right-aligned news you'll come across it
supple drift
I should add that French right-wing politics, especially those in the far-right side, is increasingly being influenced by American politics. The Great Replacement conspiracy theory, originally proposed by French author Renaud Camus, has its roots in the white genocide conspiracy theory made by American white supremacist David Lane
Nowadays, the French far-right shares much of its populist views to American right-wing positions and many French far-right figures cite American far-right and right wing sources. Think sites like Breitbart, Daily Wire; people like Candace Owens, etc
Sure, racism didn’t start in the United States and France has had issues with racism since the early modern age (look up how the Free French government purposefully had white battalions to be the ones liberating Paris even though most Free French units at the time were from their African colonies), but now the French right is tending to go for American positions instead of ‘homegrown’ ones
gentle juniper
mmm
interesting
I feel like France would have or does have the most contentious identity politics compared to the US among European countries
but to me it appears that the culture is more unified
on the macro scale
(taking into account I virtually know nothing about France)
honest steppe
I'm going over some nuances, but
just so you know, US democrats would be considered right wing for the most part in Europe, while US republicans would be considered far-right
The far-right in Europe is the one taking from the US
heavy cedar
It’s exactly that… just left/right, but more extreme. It’s all relative like Flynn mentioned. US democrats would also be considered right in NZ.
There’s also more nuance beyond political spectrum. US conservatives for the most part campaign against immigrants. It’s the opposite in NZ.
supple drift
but to me it appears that the culture is more unified
In my view, part of it comes down to how France and the United States has historically viewed other races.
The United States, following the British, believes that identity is multifaceted. Identity is not just being a certain nationality but having characteristics that colour in that nationality. There’s this lofty ‘American’ identity, borne by having American nationality and being culturally American, which is then coloured in by your distinct cultural or racial background, say some flavour of Asian or Black. That’s why in these countries you tend to see a lot of hyphens because what matters isn’t just your national identity but also your cultural, racial, and linguistic background.
France, on the other hand, assumes that your first and foremost identity should be French. Your national identity trumps whatever your actual background is: You’re not Moroccan-French, you’re not Anglo-French, you’re just… French. It promotes a more tight-knit identity by eliminating all others in favour of an exclusive group. This comes at a cost of, well, not having room for multiculturalism.
supple drift
like how socialist is the left in europe then
For this, you kinda have to take in political history because before the 1990s, I would say that most socialists were, well, socialists
heavy cedar
Yeah that’s the thing with American viewpoints. It tends to cater more towards individuality. European (including NZ) lean towards conforming to society.
supple drift
After that, though, socialist parties tend to just be social democrats
heavy cedar
there’s quite a shift to the right in Europe if you keep up with the news
supple drift
Of course each country is going to have their own histories. The Spanish PSOE (Partido Socialista Obrero Español, The Spanish Socialist Worker’s Party) moderated – i.e. they became less socialist – in the late 1970s to appease the democratic transition from fascism to democracy. The French PS (Parti socialiste, Socialist Party) only went moderate in the 2000s under François Hollande after the left lost against a resurgent right-wing
covid just
heavy cedar
I don’t think it’s COVID.
gentle juniper
I mean economic stress BREEDS right idealogy
heavy cedar
I’ve talked with a lot of European bros and much of it stems from the failure of the system to integrate asylum seekers.
supple drift
I put 1990s because that’s when you’ve got a lot of Third Way politics like Clinton’s Democratic Party in the United States and Blair’s Labour Party in the United Kingdom
heavy cedar
When you’re forced into a new country due to war but can’t connect jobs/communities/etc, you end up going with ones who can give it to you: gangs.
Even in Canada, I see it to a lesser degree. There isn’t as much of a diversity here… more like a mosaic. We have clusters of Indian or Chinese communities here. I’ve seen a documentary interviewing this old Chinese lady who moved to Richmond, BC because it’s mostly Chinese people there. Because of that, she never learned English.
At least from the ones I’ve met in person, Ukrainians are integrating quite well in Canada.
gentle juniper
👁️
sort of a tangent
butt as an estadounidense when I was taking my macroeconomics class and it would discuss some of the EU employment policy
like
here some of that would be consider absolute communism
even I was shook by some of the policy
heavy cedar
Communism is the boogeyman to American ears.
gentle juniper
Some of the unemployment rates of EU countries would be astronomical issues here in the US
supple drift
I’ve talked with a lot of European bros and much of it stems from the failure of...
Though I should add that immigration happened mostly under right-wing governments: The UK under the Conservative-Liberal Democrat coalition, Spain under the Popular Party, Germany under the Christian Democratic Union, etc
gentle juniper
I think Spain has a youth unemployment of like 25%
supple drift
So a lot of it came down to right-wing policies that favoured less state intervention which ended up disenfranchising immigrant populations
Which then became weaponised by current right-wing parties
heavy cedar
Though I should add that immigration happened mostly under right-wing government...
Hold on, immigration, not asylum?
supple drift
Hold on, immigration, not asylum?
Though 2013-2015 was characterised by refugees fleeing the Middle East due to the Arab Winter (the period of repression and chaos after the Arab Spring, which includes ISIL and the Syrian Civil War), after that it was mostly economic migrants
Immigration is the ultimate win for right-wingers since on one hand you can exploit them much better and on the other you can weaponise the native population against them
gentle juniper
^
supple drift
Economic exploitation of migrants by holding their residence status hostage in order to pay them little to no wages isn’t entirely new. There’s a reason why pre-Blair Labour Party didn’t support entering the European Economic Zone and later the European Union
heavy cedar
It’s pretty much what’s happening in NZ now. The right wing government is opening the immigration tap again. There’s a very noticeable trend when min wages are stagnant or rise depending on which party is sitting.
Same thing with housing prices. We’ve successfully (finally) curbed the absurd housing prices growth, so the current right wing party is making it easy to flip assets and for foreigners to buy property again.
supple drift
here some of that would be consider absolute communism
You lot call anything with a whiff of government as ‘communist’
gentle juniper
like severance packages are a thing here
butt like
only for high paying jobs
the idea of a worker who makes $20 an hour getting severance is absolutely unheard of
supple drift
Some Americans would probably call China’s economy as communist and be completely fine with it
gentle juniper
so we do recognize china's economy as market oriented
butt their government would be recognized as just totally communist
the illusion of choice is veryyyyy important to Americans
supple drift
Hence the qualification of ‘economy’
Because no matter what the CCP says, the Chinese economy is fundamentally capitalist. State capitalist, in fact
gentle juniper
fascinating
I mean
keep in mind that Americans genuinely believe they are here to save the world
so like
that culture and mindset
good lord
shit is CRAZY here
supple drift
I’m personally stopping here because I don’t want to get flagged again for generalising Americans
