#yozansen
placid shadow
finite herald
D'autres enfants = some other children, they are not specified. Like it's some of them but not all.
Les autres enfants = the other children, they are specified.
hoary grail
I understand the use of 'des' like for 'des arbres' but apparently there is also a difference between 'd'autres' and' des autres'
Which got me confused of this 'd'autres' use here.
finite herald
Des turns into de when an adjective is placed before a noun. That's the case here.
Autre can also be a noun, in which case you can see "des autres" alone.
On the other hand, you can see "des autres enfants" if you specify those other children along with "de". Or people just don't know the rule.
hoary grail
'jouent' is a verb? 'avec' is a preposition here i think, unless im missing something
found this article idk if relevant but its beyond my level https://www.frenchclasses.com/listen/advanced/a01/
heavy vigil
'jouent' is a verb? 'avec' is a preposition here i think, unless im missing some...
Yes, jouer is a verb
The article states what Nameless said
hoary grail
i understand the rule, he says adjective before the noun (je boire beaucoup d'eau) but its not present in my example?
'Quand les petits jouent avec d'autres enfants, '
heavy vigil
That’s another case
Give me a sec
What you've cited, « je bois beaucoup d'eau », is another case entirely
Okay, stepping back a bit
Let's start with your question and expand outwards. What you have here is the partitive article, something that you use to describe an unknown amount of something. Here, it's describing « enfants » so we have « des enfants ».
The partitive article is made of the preposition « de » plus the definite article « le, la, les »; the choice of definite article depends on the noun's number and gender. « enfants » is plural so we have « des ». It's important to remember that, even though the partitive is made of the preposition « de » and the definite article, it is NOT that those two things. It has become something new. Think of the colour purple; purple is blue plus red. You can't say that purple is blue or red; it's its own thing.
With me so far?
hoary grail
yes i guess my confusion is why isnt it 'des'
heavy vigil
Now, adjectives usually come after the noun : « un enfant génial ». However, for some adjectives, they come before the noun: « un bon enfant ».
When you have an adjective that comes before the noun, the partitive article loses the definite part: It goes from des to just de.
There's probably a historical linguistics reason for this but the point is that it happens
« Des enfants géniaux » but « De bons enfants »
Because « autre » starts with a vowel, it contracts with the article to form « d'autres ».
There we go
Again, just because it looks like the preposition « de », it's still the partitive article
hoary grail
I see damn thats a specific rule thanks i get it
heavy vigil
Alright, would you like to learn more or is that it?
Because the article went in deeper
hoary grail
you actually answered my next question, I was gonna ask about why
'ils mangent de grandes glaces'
but what I dont get is why is it
'ils mangent des petites glaces
heavy vigil
Ah so this is the point where grammar meets real-life
finite herald
As I mentioned earlier, people don't remember/know the rules.
heavy vigil
Even though the rule states that « des » becomes « de » in front of an adjective, native speakers often won't do that
so you'll hear « Des bons enfants » even if it's technically wrong
hoary grail
i see so i guess its a if it sounds good
heavy vigil
Right
It's something that you should keep in mind when talking with native speakers
But yes that's it
The difference between « d'autres » and « des autres » is a bit more complicated, and it has to do with the preposition « de »
A good portion of verbs and expressions in French require « de »: « rêver de quelque chose (to dream about something), avoir besoin de quelque chose (to have need of something), beaucoup de quelque chose (a lot of something), etc »
Now, when you have a partitive article meeting the preposition « de », the article disappears. So, for example, if I have « des pommes » and I want to make that into the object of « j'ai besoin de », I will say « j'ai besoin de pommes »
de + des pommes —> de + des pommes => de pommes
This means that you have « d'autres enfants » meeting the preposition, that article disappears:
« Je m'occupe de + d'autres enfants => Je m'occupe d'autres enfants »
finite herald
Plural indefinite or partitive artcles (both des) disappear after de.
However, the plural definite article merges with de to give "des".
heavy vigil
However, what happens if you instead have the definite article, « les autres enfants » ? Well, « les » merges with « de » to make « des » :
« Je m'occupe des autres enfants [de + les autres enfants] »
hoary grail
i see wow so i guess its like a further contraction
heavy vigil
So when we're analysing sentences, we have to look at the whole context first
finite herald
J'ai besoin de crayons (some random unspecified pencils, basically any ones will do)
vs.
J'ai besoin des crayons (specific pencils (les crayons), they can be combined with something else like "sur la table" to make it point you need pencils that are on the table and not the ones that are somewhere else)
heavy vigil
That's why if I see, for example, « Ils jouent avec des autres enfants », I will notice that it's wrong because « des » here is the partitive so it should « d'autres enfants »
finite herald
Indefinite, since children are countable.
heavy vigil
« jouer », at least in this context, doesn't require the preposition « de »
so I know that « des » is impossible
Whereas if I saw « J'ai envie des pommes », there I know that this is a verbal expression which does require « de » (avoir envie de quelque chose = to have want of something) so it won't bother me to see « des » there
hoary grail
thanks u both for the help i get it now, but have to take time to absorb this 👍 👍
finite herald
so I know that « des » is impossible
I suppose so if you follow the rules.