#mr.moderino

1 messages · Page 1 of 1 (latest)

soft tangleBOT
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Please be patient

Our volunteers look into many questions every day; sometimes it takes them a little while to answer.

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Make it descriptive, including relevant context, but also to the point. This way you improve your chances of getting a more relevant and specific answer.

clear dagger
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Direct and indirectness is often an inherent trait of a verb, and it's really specific to that verb

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I can just as equally ask why hearing is direct but listening is indirect
'I hear a noise / I'm listening to a song'

grim stirrup
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I give the book to you.
there's both here

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the book is the direct object
to you is the indirect object

clear dagger
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On the case of « donner », however, the structure has to be paid attention to. In French, you can't have two direct objets so if you have two objects, then one will be direct and one will be indirect. Often times, the indirect will be a recipient of sorts. As you can see in the « je donne le livre à toi » example, we have this structure: we have the object – that is acted upon by the verb as a direct object – being received by the person getting said book as an indirect object

grim stirrup
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it's indirect because it's introduced by a preposition ("to" here)

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"te" can be direct or indirect depending on the verb yeah

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Je te donne le livre.
le livre is already the direct object, te is indirect

clear dagger
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Perhaps a better example with the third person pronouns:
« Je donne cette clé à Louis —> Je la lui donne »

tepid trout
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Maybe we can add different examples if that one is confusing

tepid trout
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And one second I have to go to google becuase I dont have a french keyboard to find that special a

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So if the sentence includes À does it automatically become indirect if you follow it up with a you or me after? (Tu, me)

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Also pour I'd assume since I think pour means to and for

clear dagger
grim stirrup
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if youre on pc you can just add french in settings and switch to a french layout with shift alt

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don't have to get azerty, you can get US international or whatever they use in québec

grim stirrup
clear dagger
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Je vois Michel => No preposition, direct object
Je parle à Michel => Preposition, indirect object
Je me souviens de Michel => Preposition, indirect object
Je me bats contre Michel => Preposition, indirect object

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you get the idea

tepid trout
clear dagger
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rip Michel though

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;kbd

soft tangleBOT
grim stirrup
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should be windows

unkempt tangle
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direct and indirect objects are not distinguished when using me, te, nous, and vous

grim stirrup
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damn nice guide right there

tepid trout
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Je vois Michel> Je le vois I think direct cause i dont see that à

grim stirrup
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yes

tepid trout
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Je parle à Michael> Je lui Parle i think because you said à earlier

grim stirrup
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you can only use lui with à tho

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the rest are gonna be de lui, contre lui

clear dagger
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Yes though « lui, leur » is only for « à » and « pour » in specific contexts involving a recipient

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like erm

unkempt tangle
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we've had this discussion before lmao, but it's really better to think of it first in terms of lui rather than in terms of the proposition

tepid trout
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How is je me souviens de michel indirect. I don't see ''à '' anywhere. Same with Je me bats contre michel

clear dagger
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« J'achète un cadeau pour Michel => Je le lui achète »

grim stirrup
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contre

unkempt tangle
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since you can say "je pense a lui" but not "je lui pense"

grim stirrup
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those are prepositions

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we said indirect means there's any preposition

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not necessarily à

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à is just the most common preposition (maybe)

tepid trout
clear dagger
unkempt tangle
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you're confusing him, becuase indirect object is too broad a category

unkempt tangle
tepid trout
unkempt tangle
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it's easier just to call indirect objects every verb that takes lui (yes yes, i know whatever not 100% technically correct)

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and everything else is just a verb that uses a proposition

tepid trout
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brb for a minute, trying to add the french keyboard thingy

clear dagger
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I still disagree with that since we will later learn stuff about adverbial complements, adverbial pronouns « en », relative objects, etc., and not attributing indirectness to other objects not governed by « à » may be confusing when we're dealing with French terminology

unkempt tangle
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i can't really see why it would be more confusing than the way it's explained right now which seems deficient

tepid trout
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Back

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I know understanding this is important because theres Les and Leur

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Leur for indirect and Les for direct for them

unkempt tangle
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there's obviously a certain grammatical category of objects in french which correspond to lui. whatever you want to call it is probably fine, but i think it's pretty useful to call it something rather than just say that it's an a nameless exception

tepid trout
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My french is still A1, but I am near the entrance to the A2 busuu level so im slightly improving

tepid trout
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Heres what I've received so far: ''Verb + no preposition + person = Direct object → use le, la, les

Verb + à + person = Indirect object → use lui, leur

Verb + other preposition + person (de, avec, contre, etc.) = Prepositional → use stress pronouns (moi, toi, lui, elle, etc.)''

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My confusion is definitely when I see ''Il leur donne le livre.'' which means He them gives the book but hes physically giving them the book which throws me off. I'm being told this is an Indirect object pronoun

clear dagger
# unkempt tangle i can't really see why it would be more confusing than the way it's explained ri...

Because when we interact with the rest of the language, it'll cause a difference. If we simply assume that indirect objects are anything replaceable by « lui/leur » – a category that almost exclusively only includes objects under « à » and « pour » – we're going to have difficulties when we see « sur laquelle » which is defined as an indirect relative pronoun. If we just stick with that « lui » assumption, we will have to ask ourselves: Why is this declared 'indirect'? Sure, it's not ideal but following the language's classification makes learning easier down the road.

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Anyway

clear dagger
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lui = to him/her, it doesn't carry gender information

tepid trout
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Good to know Lui is him/her

clear dagger
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Je donne ce cadeau à Michel => Je le lui donne
Je donne ce cadeau à Émilie => Je le lui donne

clear dagger
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the people who receive the thing that is being physically delivered

tepid trout
clear dagger
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You'll be missing a direct object (the thing given) but it'll still be « Je lui donne »

tepid trout
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I see Je donne ce cadeau à Michel

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Je le lui donne= I it him give

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Thats a tricky one there, adding both le and lui

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I'm slowly getting better than previously. First getting introduced to this system was definitely challenging, but slowly chipping away at this important topic

clear dagger
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get into the habit of keeping the preposition

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That'll help you later on in indirect relative pronouns

tepid trout
clear dagger
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lui = to him

tepid trout
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Ohh

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I it to him give

clear dagger
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right

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Il la leur donne => He gives it to them [lit. He it to them gives]

tepid trout
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How do French speakers feel about this system? I hope it makes it easier for them. I want to be open minded

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I believe it is indirect because if you give a mail, the mail is direct and the person is the indirect. Or a gift or a cake etc

clear dagger
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@grim stirrup Tu as une opinion là-dessus, sur la question de facilité ?

clear dagger
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but this is a dual object construction

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You may have cases where an English verb requires a direct object but its French equivalent requires an indirect one or vice-versa

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An example of the first one is English 'to telephone' being direct but French « téléphoner » being indirect; the second is English 'to listen' being indirect but French « écouter » is direct

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What matters then is you learning the different 'arguments' that a verb takes

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That's why I recommend WordReference becausse it gives you the arguments of a verb as well

image.png
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As you can see, « écrire » is a dual object verb with the direct object being the thing written and the indirect object being the person to whom said written thing is addressed

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Another example is « échapper » where we can see that it takes an indirect object under « à »

image.png
grim stirrup
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ben pour moi c'est clair

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juste ça fait lourd quand faut mettre les deux pronoms objets pour un même verbe

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en général on en saute un

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genre "tu lui donnes" on saute le le

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"tu me le passes" quand c'est pas deux pronoms 3e personne ça passe par contre

tiny flame
unkempt tangle
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i think the truth is that once you actually start reading and listening to a lot of french, it becomes fairely obvious what's going on

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it's just a bit confusing to talk about

grim stirrup
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yeah exactly