Tout doucement

[dry pawn]

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[rustic stone]

I've never met a learner who was better at listening than a native, and I include myself in that group of learners despite 29 years of learning French and being certified C2

I also don't think that song lyrics are a good measure of listening skills - there are tons of songs in English that I mishear and if it's rap, well everything is fucked

[shell inlet]

This depends on the learner and the native speaker, but learners are more likely to be directly challenged in their listening and adjust to inferring meaning, as well as sometimes being more exposed to a wider variety of accents, so it certainly can happen. It wouldn't be "universally better than native speakers" or anything though

There have been many, many times where I have been able to understand even france french better than certain native speakers, but there are a ton of different factors to consider and there definitely would be native speakers who could understand

[mild quarry]

its easier to listen in talking vs music

so i would say it does add on to your ability to listen especially if you can hear the sounds either through weird character voices via cartoons or music generally

because talking is always going to be easier even kids of 10 and under would be very fine with that

[mild quarry]

this does make alot of sense tho

[rustic stone]

my point is that it's not a good metric for judging someone's language skills

because even as a native English speaker, I have a hard time with some songs

[mild quarry]

if we're talking about generally sure

listening skills wise

its just part of listening so i would say it would show who can genuinely hear better especially since it isn't always a matter of "who listens to this genre this much vs not" because they're people who genuinely don't listen to rap or despise it

yet still understand the most slurred singing or rapping

[rustic stone]

I guess I just disagree

[mild quarry]

noted btw

[mild quarry]

that's always fine lol

[shell inlet]

I wouldn't say any learner would be universally better than native speakers, but a native speaker isn't going to inherently understand everything a learner will

[mild quarry]

that's okay honestly

[mild quarry]

well yeah of course

perhaps its just a skill thing

[shell inlet]

Not really

[mild quarry]

i mean

[rustic stone]

it's not a skill thing with natives though... they're just natives

[mild quarry]

if it isn't universally

[shell inlet]

Native speakers inherently are the reference for a language

[mild quarry]

ehhh you can be a native and still be better than another native naturally

perhaps talent is the better word

[rustic stone]

uhhhh

no

[mild quarry]

natural talent*

[rustic stone]

short of someone having a neurological problem

[shell inlet]

Lack of comprehension doesn't mean lack of talent

[mild quarry]

true but that also doesn't mean a native who has the better ability to hear than another native naturally doesnt exist , hence natural talent. Equivalent of always being able to do something naturally vs not being able to do so

[shell inlet]

There are so many factors that come into play, and native speakers are the reference so there is no "better" or "worse", you could just as well argue that the person not making themselves understood is the one with the "problem"

[mild quarry]

if its being listened to by millions of eara

ears

then its surely not a matter of "not making themselves intelligible"

to the ear lol

tho if one native can hear and another can't with both having equal amount of "listening time" to a specific thing then there's clearly a factor for why not

[shell inlet]

And there can be all sorts of reasons for that

[mild quarry]

and yes this is almost always true

[mild quarry]

besides grammar ngl

learners at uni most of the time has better grammar and orthography

[shell inlet]

Grammar still is based on native speakers
Prescriptivists are a whole separate issue

[mild quarry]

unless the native is use to doing stuff at said uni level whilst also being always checked for language

because im pretty sure i can get away ina geography degree whilst writing "i could of"

[mild quarry]

noted

[mild quarry]

non natives are usually treated more harshly for grammar via institutes

a native would always have a better vocab tho

[shell inlet]

Often there are governing bodies that present standards, in part as a classism thing, in part to make sure communication is not impeded

[mild quarry]

but grammar? ehhhhh alot of natives don't even realize alot of the stuff they say are simply informal

[rustic stone]

for vocab? no that's one area where learners can be stronger
a well-read learner will often have a better vocabulary than a native who never reads

[mild quarry]

when i say a better vocab, i don't mean an active one

[rustic stone]

natives inherently master the grammar of their language
learners need to learn it by rote

[mild quarry]

i meant in terms of what they know aka passively

[rustic stone]

I'm talking about active and passive vocabulary

[mild quarry]

natives inherently knows 20k+ vocab

[rustic stone]

not necessarily

[mild quarry]

whilst non natives aren't reaching that

by normal means

[rustic stone]

a native who doesn't have a highschool degree and doesn't read... well they can have a very paltry vocabulary

[mild quarry]

if you have an education in said language then yes its true

[mild quarry]

its safe to assume most people have education

[shell inlet]

Non natives very often can surpass native speakers in vocabulary with relative ease, it isn't particularly difficult

[rustic stone]

uhhh... no

my mother-in-law doesn't have a hs degree

and doesn't read

but she's still a native French speaker

[shell inlet]

I very frequently encounter people without highschool diplomas

[mild quarry]

yeah but majority of populations still went to school, reading is a basic skill, i understand wym, not all natives can naturally be better at something because even hobos are natives right

but its safe to assume

having a basic education is something most populations have that aren't third world at least

[shell inlet]

Even going to highschool doesn't mean you'll retain much

[rustic stone]

be careful with the word "hobo" there... it specifically refers to an american subculture of itinerant workers and they weren't encessarily poorly educated

[mild quarry]

considering its part of the basis of an immature brain

[shell inlet]

What

[mild quarry]

your brain is taking in all of what it did before it fully develops

so yes it would retain

[shell inlet]

No

[mild quarry]

i thought hobo just meant homeless

vagrant

[shell inlet]

Children absorb stuff more easily overall, that doesn't mean they will, especially when it comes to vocabulary they aren't using every day orally

[mild quarry]

😭😭 bro if we're talking about retaining in-depth information like definitions and stuff like that via sciences and etc

sure fine

but simple words and their meanings?

[shell inlet]

No, just the vocabulary

[mild quarry]

doesn't make sense to me ngl

[shell inlet]

Many natives will have vocabulary without even understanding the word itself

[mild quarry]

idk how im supposed to forget the meaning of a word i read even in middle school

even for words like osmosis

or precipitation

[mild quarry]

this is partially true

[shell inlet]

It's entirely true

[mild quarry]

because said natives can still know how to use the word

[shell inlet]

Depends

[mild quarry]

there are words idk the word by word meaning like the dictionary meaning

but ik how to use em and can guess what they mean by context

and usually am correct

when i look it up

[shell inlet]

Many natives use vocabulary "incorrectly" as they were retained through context

And misattributed the contextual information

[mild quarry]

ngl can't even disagree there

I've heard the word racist thrown around so much its just 🥀

[shell inlet]

Words have also shifted meaning over time due to misunderstandings

It's an inherent part of language, for communication to be imperfect and change accordingly

[grand musk]

Maybe that person is just better at deciphering words than others in general—no matter the language

[olive bear]

Certified C2 is crazy

Maybe the person just looked up the lyrics and never told you yk lol

[grand musk]

Yeah I see what you’re saying. Some speakers have higher language comprehension that others. Unless French people are built different 😂

[grand musk]

Talent in the area of comprehension

[olive bear]

Death ref

[grand musk]

Like I always found reading comprehension easier naturally than others in my class

[grand musk]

Yeah 😂 I know homeless people who had careers and degrees. And there’s a whole YouTube channel about it. (Invisible People). One dude was a millionaire and lost everything

[rustic stone]

I was specifically saying that "hobo" has a particular meaning that is not the same as homeless

[grand musk]

I think it’s also just an unkind way of describing them. Little dehumanizing. And people already see them as less than human

[shell inlet]

It's incredibly unlikely for someone to have universal comprehension talent, unless they are specifically trained in that area, in which case I would consider it an acquired skill and not something worth referencing when talking about general language comprehension

[rustic stone]

ngl I'm quite proud of it hahaha

[olive bear]

25 years is also crazy but yeah tu peux

[grand musk]

Oh interesting. I’ve never heard that but I guess it can be a different type of homeless with certain stereotypes ?

[rustic stone]

29*

lol

[grand musk]

Why not? It’s a certain brain muscle

[rustic stone]

to be fair I only learned that it was the case quite recently: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hobo

[shell inlet]

Reminds me of the show the littlest hobo

[grand musk]

Weird. I’ve never heard of that. When I was a kid people just called all homeless people that, and now no one says that word because it’s offensive.

Maybe the meaning shifted regionally?

[rustic stone]

the term was misused when I was a kid, but it is a distinct subculture and I think it's worth spreading that information

[grand musk]

So would this refer to non American people who also live on the streets but are looking for work

Because I know a lot of people like that

Although it’s hard to get work when you’re addicted to drugs and need be drugs to survive the winter

[shell inlet]

Because language is defined by native speakers, so someone being more able to understand things isn't representative of how people in general are communicating. Communication is not one-way and not understanding something does not make you less apt in your language, you are a reference for the language. Some people may be "below average" in certain areas of comprehension, likely due to lack of familiarity with them, which is not a matter of being smarter or better, just having a wider range of experience. It's kind of like saying someone is smarter just because they speak several languages - they may have acquired more knowledge, and likely have benefited from that, but they arent inherently more skilled or more capable than someone who has not.

[grand musk]

But some people may have the capacity to pick up a language faster whether they decide to learn it. (Also not saying that’s a comprehension skill. Different skill)

So they may have talent in that area

[shell inlet]

Sure, that doesn't mean they're worse at the language they have spoken their entire life if they do not

Many parts of language arise because of people who misunderstand, mishear, etc.

Language develops around and with those people, it isn't a matter of lagging behind

We have this idea that a certain understanding and usage of the language is inherently "better", but this just comes down to classism

[grand musk]

Oh yeah I’m definitely not saying that 😂

I was just saying maybe that’s why the rapping listening guy understood the song

Because he more easily understands spoken word

Doesn’t mean he’s better at the language

Like I cannot understand song lyrics often in English

Audio processing centres

[shell inlet]

Yeah, I just find "talent" or "skill" to generally be misleading especially when we're talking about language competency

[grand musk]

I’m just thinking of “ability”, which can come from both or a combination of the two

[shell inlet]

Classism loves to poke its head into every kind of discussion about languages and the idea that someone is somehow "better" at a language when the definition of the language revolves around every native speaker more or less equally is a bit of a slippery slope

Not to say that some people can't have certain abilities that allow them to understand a wider variety of material easily (lack of sensory processing issues, wide variety of experience, acquired skill, etc)

[rustic stone]

Note that even defining "native speaker" is fraught with issues of classism
We all have a certain "feel" for what a native speaker is, but defining it in concrete terms is verrrrrry difficult and often ends up confronting issues of race, class, socioeconomic background, edcuation, etc.

[shell inlet]

Oh of course

Most things are much less black and white than we tend to categorize them, especially when it comes to something as malleable and complex as language

[mild quarry]

yeah we got that dw

[mild quarry]

its called natural talent for a reason

you don't train for that but aye

atleast some people agree with me

fortunately

enough

[mild quarry]

this is exactly what im saying

you get it man

[mild quarry]

you're kinda misunderstanding how language proficiency and communication function. While native speakers do shape language norms, comprehension and clarity are still essential for effective communication. If someone consistently fails to understand widely used expressions or structures, it can reflect a gap in linguistic competence, not just unfamiliarity. Language is indeed a social construct, but being better able to understand and express complex ideas often correlates with greater linguistic skill,not just morr so exposure. Just as multilingualism can enhance cognitive flexibility, a broader grasp of one's native language usually reflects both experience and capability, not merely variation in background.

[shell inlet]

Heavily dependent on context and most cases where people criticize this are when someone from a stigmatized background (poor, rural, etc) is not familiar with certain things from a priveleged background, the reverse is very rarely seen as a lack of competency, while there is no inherent difference between the two

[mild quarry]

understood ngl