zyun.

[karmic steppe]

Please be patient

Our volunteers look into many questions every day; sometimes it takes them a little while to answer.

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Make it descriptive, including relevant context, but also to the point. This way you improve your chances of getting a more relevant and specific answer.

[odd kraken]

Okay so I'm going to assume you're going for Metropolitan French (i.e. the French of France)

In general, the top-hat vowels – called the circumflex – don't have a specific sound. « pâte » and « patrie » are pronounced the same.

The real difference is with the vowel E's three forms: bare (de), acute (télécharger), and grave (père)

For the bare: https://www.lawlessfrench.com/pronunciation/e/
For the acute: https://www.lawlessfrench.com/pronunciation/acute-accent/
For the grave: https://www.lawlessfrench.com/pronunciation/grave-accent/

For a more general article on vowels, read this:
https://www.lawlessfrench.com/pronunciation/vowels/

[rustic herald]

Thank you so much

[rustic herald]

When do you use the C with a squiggly line underneath?

[odd kraken]

The cédille is a writing thing

Okay so in French, the consonant C represents two sounds: a soft S sound in front of front vowels like <i, e> like « cinéma, célébration » and a hard K sound in front of back vowels like <a, ou, u*, o> like « canicule, courber, cuve, coalition »

*<u> technically represents a front vowel /y/ but it doesn't trigger a soft S sound due to historical reasons

However, there are cases where you want a soft S sound in front of a back vowel so in that case you would write the C cédille (Ç, ç)

Take the city of « Besançon ». Because the « çon » part uses a soft S /sɔ̃/, you write it with the C cédille. If you had written in with a normal C like « con », we would've pronounced it with the hard K sound /kon/ which is wrong.

This usage of softening the C also works in historical spelling. For example, the letters <ais> have evolved in Middle French to become the <è> sound in Modern French. When we look at the imperfect conjugation for -cer verbs like « commencer, balancer », we have « je commençais / je balançais ». Here, even though we would pronounce <ais> like an <è>, it's not written as a front vowel but a back vowel so we put the C cédille there

[rustic herald]

I see so the Cedille is used primarly to make the word sound like an S

@odd kraken The problem I have with the vowels and the cedille is when to use them

[odd kraken]

Basically, if you have a soft S sound but you either have to:
a) Pronounce a back vowel
b) Pronounce a front vowel written as a back vowel

You use the cédille

[rustic herald]

ohh so like in the word because we dont use cedille cause the C in because is said without an S sound but for words like balancer where the C sounds like an S we use the cedille?

[odd kraken]

Right because <ais> is written as a back vowel (ais) even though the sound is soft

[rustic herald]

I'm sorry this is the first time I've heard of back and front vowels

[odd kraken]

It just means position

Say the letter A then the letter I

In French

[rustic herald]

okay

[odd kraken]

Notice your tongue moving?

[rustic herald]

no

[odd kraken]

Really?

Just feel it

A

I

A

I

Or O and É

[rustic herald]

hahaha wait I don't feel it moving

[rustic herald]

for this its my lips

[odd kraken]

Or not you can put something on your tongue

A finger or whatever

And just feel where your tongue is when you say A

Feel it where it is when you say I

[rustic herald]

yea I guess I feel it

[odd kraken]

The tongue with the A sound should feel back and down

[rustic herald]

I feel my jaw moving more though

[odd kraken]

The I should be front and up

[rustic herald]

yupp

[odd kraken]

Your jaw moves because your tongue is

[odd kraken]

Right that’s what it means

When you pronounce OU, A, O, your tongue is back

When you pronounce I and É, the tongue is forward

Thus back vowel and front vowel

[rustic herald]

Ahhhh I seee

Another question, when do you use nous nous appelons and vous vous appelenz

[odd kraken]

You have two questions here

Are you asking when to use nous vs vous

Or are you asking why it has nous nous and not just nous

[rustic herald]

actually it was the former but I want to know both if that's alright

[odd kraken]

Well, « nous » is the plural first person. First person here means the person who is speaking so imagine you and your friend talking. That's « nous ». Now, in modern French, « nous » has all but discarded in favour of « on » but the principle remains.

« vous » can either be the plural second person or the formal singular second person. Second person here means the person who is listening to the speaker, the other person in the conversation. For the plural, imagine you and your friend listening to me talking. For the singular formal, imagine your professor or your teacher or someone who is more socially superior than you in place of you or your friend

;tu

[karmic steppe]

https://i.imgur.com/QeO3r3Q.png

[odd kraken]

That's a bit humorous but it explains it well enough

Now, about why we have this doubling thing. French has something called pronominal verbs:
https://www.lawlessfrench.com/grammar/pronominal-verbs/

You can read that article for full but the gist of it is that pronominal verbs are verbs whose objects are the same as their subjects. For example: « je me parle (I talk to myself), je m'appelle (I call myself) »

The thing is that certain pronominal verbs gain a more figurative meaning. For example, « s'appeler » (the s' there stands for « se », the reflexive pronoun) literally means 'to call oneself' but it has gained a figurative meaning of 'my name is…'

Je m'appelle Bertie.
–> literal translation: I call myself Bertie
—> actual meaning: My name is Bertie

Tu t'appelles Bertie.
–> literal translation: You call yourself Bertie
—> actual meaning: Your name is Bertie

Il s'appelle Bertie.
–> literal translation: He calls himself Bertie
—> actual meaning: His name is Bertie

Nous nous appelons Bertie et Thomas.
–> literal translation: We call ourselves Bertie and Thomas
—> actual meaning: Our names are Bertie and Thomas

Vous vous appelez Bertie. [formal singular]
–> literal translation: You call yourself Bertie
—> actual meaning: Your name is Bertie

Vous vous appelez Bertie et Thomas. [plural second person]
–> literal translation: You people/guys/all call yourselves Bertie and Thomas
—> actual meaning: Your names are Bertie and Thomas

Ils s'appellent Bertie et Thomas.
–> literal translation: They call themselves Bertie and Thomas
—> actual meaning: Their names are Bertie and Thomas

[rustic herald]

okay so far what I understood is that nous nous is used as a "we" like nous nous appelons is used as we are called? And for vous vous appelenz is for a formal way of saying "you are called".

[odd kraken]

The reflexive pronoun « s'/se » changes according to the subject since, again, the object refers to the same person as the subject

[odd kraken]

Essentially

[odd kraken]

So if the subject is « je », the reflexive pronoun will find the object pronoun corresponding to « je » which is « me »

[odd kraken]

Again, read this link

It'll explain it better than me

and faster because I'm actually going to sleep rn

[rustic herald]

Me too hahah I about to sleep

thank you so much!! Will this chat be deleted? I hope not cause I will use these for class.

[rustic herald]

Thank you so much again!

[odd kraken]

Nope

But inactivity will make it unlisted so just save it somewhere

Take screenshots or what have you

[rustic herald]

Okay! Can I message you here again if I have questions?

[odd kraken]

It’s better to ask again in the original channel and have another thread because I may not be present

Others can find the new thread and help you there