#Fato [Corrigez-moi svp] ✱

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maiden stagBOT
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versed holly
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what are you confused about?

onyx yew
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And it's not only that word

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attendez

versed holly
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yes, "cueille" and "feuille" are pronounced the same, apart from the initial consonant

onyx yew
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But why

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I thought that combination ("eu") was always /ø/

versed holly
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"ueil" has a set pronunciation in French (same as "oeil")

onyx yew
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So it's the same?

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Oh, you deleted it…

versed holly
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yeah, I misremembered what /ø/ was, sorry

onyx yew
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oooooh

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k no problem

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geniuses can make mistakes too

versed holly
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"ueil" is always /œ.j/
"eu" can have a variety of pronunciations, depending on the rest of the word (/y/, /œ/, /ø/...)

onyx yew
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😭

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Okay, for example…?

versed holly
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I believe "eur" as a word ending is always /œʁ/

onyx yew
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So "serveur" is /œʁ/?

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Then why peur is /pøʁ/?

versed holly
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right, so are h__eu__re, coiff__eu__r, p__eu__r, b__eu__rre

onyx yew
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peur?

versed holly
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yes

onyx yew
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Ooooh okay

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I thought it was /ø/ too

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sorry

versed holly
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the only cases where I can think of "eur" using /ø/ was if it's followed by a vowel sound within the same word, like "apeuré"

onyx yew
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So /ø/ is more like when closed, and /œ/ is more like when open

versed holly
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yes

onyx yew
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Ooooooooh

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But you said eu could also be /y/

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When?

versed holly
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the obvious one is the "avoir" conjugation "eu" (just the word "eu")

onyx yew
versed holly
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it's not. if you're looking on wiktionary, it's not the first definition

onyx yew
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IT'S /y/

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WHAAAAAAAAT

versed holly
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also other "avoir" conjugations use /y/ (eus, eut, eûmes, eûtes, eurent, eussions..)
I don't know if there are other words

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I can't think of any other, so just think of "avoir" conjugations as exceptions

onyx yew
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it's the second time my pronunciation of French has to be completely reformed

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So, to summarize… /œ/ is for open forms, like endings of words, of "eu" and "ueil". /ø/ is for closed forms, and /y/ is for "avoir" conjugations with the form "eu"

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Am I right?

versed holly
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yes. Although open and close can be hard to pinpoint.
"heure" for instance is actually open.
words like "meule" and "meute" are closed.
words like "seul" and "seule" are open

onyx yew
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Well, I think this is when we have to do the same we did with English

versed holly
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I'm not sure if there is a 100% accurate pattern

onyx yew
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Learn every single pronunciation

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Flynn, what do you suggest?

versed holly
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Maybe other people will have better tips for it, but that's the kind of thing you usually get through with experience and more listening, although it's good to learn the pronunciation of common words like "heure", "seul" or "eu"

onyx yew
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Okay, okay

versed holly
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also it's not like /œ/ and /ø/ are so far apart. It may sound a bit off if you mess it up, but people should understand

onyx yew
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somehow, yeah

versed holly
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/y/ is very far apart tho, so don't forget this one, it'll cause confusion otherwise

onyx yew
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I swore it was /ø/ 😭😭

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That explains why the voice transcription didn't understand me

turbid geyser
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There's no pattern unfortunately

onyx yew
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Oh

turbid geyser
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In general with closed syllables you get open vowels and vice-versa but that's subject to historical evolution

onyx yew
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Bertibear, what you did to Flynn?

onyx yew
turbid geyser
onyx yew
turbid geyser
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It's a general tendency, not a hard rule

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You can find many open vowels that should've been in theory closed and vice-versa

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That may come down to etymology

onyx yew
onyx yew
onyx yew
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Do you agree, Bertie?

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Or you'd rather say another thing?

turbid geyser
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I will say though that exceptions are exceptions in French's case

onyx yew
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Okay, okay

turbid geyser
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In English's case, there are so many exceptions to the rule you might as well not have a rule

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whereas in French, that idea of 'closed vowel in open syllables versus open vowel in closed syllables' applies a lot more than you'd think

onyx yew
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Like there's a pattern in a way or another

turbid geyser
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Exceptions like « jeune [ʒœn]/jeûne [ʒøn] » are a lot rarer, and this one is etymological

turbid geyser
onyx yew
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What does « jeûne » means?

onyx yew
turbid geyser
onyx yew
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Like a famine?

turbid geyser
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think breakfast

onyx yew
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FLYNN IS BACK OMG

onyx yew
turbid geyser
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since breakfast is the meal you eat after eight hours of not eating

versed holly
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I was never gone, just didn't have much to add 😅

turbid geyser
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(you would've been sleeping at that point)

onyx yew
versed holly
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I have to say, when I see a new word in French I can guess its pronunciation 99% of the time
when I see english speakers playing a warcraft game, I hear them asking how stuff is pronounced all the time

onyx yew
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Yeah, English is weird stuff

turbid geyser
onyx yew
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Oooooh

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I see i see

turbid geyser
onyx yew
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Well, I think I'll get used to this new pattern with time

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This is completely new to me, so…

turbid geyser
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the <5% chance is due to stuff like schwa deletion (appeler —> app'ler) but the rest is fine

onyx yew
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Like I said before, "eu" was all /ø/ to me

versed holly
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it's still complex. French is still one of the least consistent languages I know when it comes to pronunciation. English is just that inconsistent

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Spanish, Italian or Portuguese for instance are way more consistent

onyx yew
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But those languages are somehow boring to me

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I mean, I'm Spanish native

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so they sound tooooo similar to me

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so I prefer something somehow different

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And there you have

versed holly
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I passed Spanish class by sole virtue of being French, they're so similar

onyx yew
versed holly
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-# alternatively you have languages like Japanese, where a pronunciation mistake is saying Sakuya instead of Yuube

onyx yew
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Or Chinese

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where you have tones

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😭

versed holly
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I mean chinese is consistent
Each symbol always has a consistent pronunciation
You just have to know each fucking one kek

onyx yew
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yeah, that's the neat part

misty jackal
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So it doesn't really matter

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But in northern french dialects in can be [œ] in closed syllables yeah

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And don't ask me why it's not written ceuillir

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Well the c would have to be pronounced [s] there so cueuillir

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We do have ueu in gueule

pure wasp
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yep that's the reason, it's also in accueil

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I'm pretty sure that back then, cœur was spelled cueur too

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to avoid the same issue

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it's probably smarter to write it that way rather than just inverting both letters, so cueillir/accueil would become cueuillir /accueuil

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but alas

onyx yew
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Or at least I've been playing voice recordings from Wiktionary

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The same place where I was confused about the IPA transcription

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It's not the exact same sound

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But if you say so

misty jackal
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Which means it doesn't make a difference in meaning

onyx yew
misty jackal
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[køʁ] and [kœʁ] are the same word /kœʁ/

onyx yew
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Yeah, I get what you mean

misty jackal
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iirc

onyx yew
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Allophone is a phoneme that doesn't change meaning in a language

misty jackal
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What does that mean

onyx yew
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Like [p] and [pʰ] in English

misty jackal
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Yeah

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So it's what im trying to say

onyx yew
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Phoneme it's the sound itself

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if I'm not wrong

misty jackal
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[p] and [pʰ] are allophones of the phoneme /p/

onyx yew
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Yeah

misty jackal
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A phoneme isn't really a sound

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It's an idea of a sound

onyx yew
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Then what's a sound?

misty jackal
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Different from the other phonemes in the same system

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Well allophones are sounds

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A sound is what you actually produce with your mouth

onyx yew
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Well, that's the actual meaning of a phoneme

misty jackal
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[ʒ] isn't an allophone of /p/ in English

onyx yew
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I'm going to look out

misty jackal
onyx yew
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Indeed

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Phoneme

misty jackal
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A phoneme (/ˈfoʊniːm/) is any set of similar speech sounds that is perceptually regarded by the speakers of a language as a single basic sound—a smallest possible phonetic unit—that helps distinguish one word from another.

misty jackal
# onyx yew

Key part: distinguish one word from another

onyx yew
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which was the meaning you were giving before

misty jackal
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?

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Read again

onyx yew
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Okay, yeah

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Distinguish words

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So…?

misty jackal
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[pir] and [pyr] are a minimal pair in French because they have one sound that is different AND it makes a difference in meaning

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So /i/ and /y/ are different phonemes in French

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[pir] and [pɪʁ] are both understood as /pir/ in French so [ɪ] is just another allophone of /i/ in French

onyx yew
onyx yew
onyx yew
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What's new?

misty jackal
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You said phonemes are sounds

onyx yew
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Aren't they?

misty jackal
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And allophones are phonemes

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No

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They're sets of sounds

onyx yew
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What's the difference?

misty jackal
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A set of sounds has multiple sounds in it

onyx yew
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Huh?

misty jackal
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That's like saying a group of people is a person

onyx yew
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It's not, yeah

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But explain it to me

misty jackal
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Well a phoneme is a group of sounds

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Those sounds that are part of the phoneme are called allophones

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[i] and [ɪ] are part of /i/

onyx yew
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Oh, okay

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So, this applied to /ø/ and /œ/…?

misty jackal
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Yeah

onyx yew
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I mean I actually hear a subtle difference between both

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Not in specific sounds

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but in French natives

misty jackal
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[ø] and [œ] are part of /ø/
You can also call it /œ/ or whatever you want

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Yes that's why i said they're part of the same phoneme

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But totally different sounds

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And natives will hear the difference

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But it still doesn't make a difference in meaning

onyx yew
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Yeah, I get you

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So the conclusion is…?

misty jackal
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So you were confused about /ʁə.kœ.jiʁ/

onyx yew
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I was

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Then Flynn and Bertie explained to me

misty jackal
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It's written between slashes so it's phonemes

onyx yew
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And concluded that I should make a difference between /œ/ and /ø/

misty jackal
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That /œ/ can be [œ] or [ø], doesn't make a difference

onyx yew
misty jackal
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Well people will hear it but they will always understand it

misty jackal
onyx yew
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No?

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Why?

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Man this people should update French IPA

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😡

misty jackal
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I've been saying [œ] and [ø] are the same phoneme

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You can call it /œ/ or /ø/

onyx yew
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So you're suggesting that I can pronounce both phonemes in any of both sounds

misty jackal
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But we're talking about one single phoneme

onyx yew
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And also you're saying that French people will hear the difference, but won't make a difference

onyx yew
misty jackal
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Yes
I'd say recueillir [ʁø.kø.iʁ] and it'd be understood as /ʁə.kœ.jiʁ/

onyx yew
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Okay

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Yeah, that's some kind of struggle I've had before with /ɛ̃/ that a guy in #prononciation explained

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But I don't see why you say that I should not make a difference between /ø/ and /œ/

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You say it's the same phoneme

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But why I shouldn't distinguish them?

misty jackal
onyx yew
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???

misty jackal
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yeah

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you gave me two phonemes

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bc you used //

onyx yew
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Uh huh

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So…

misty jackal
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just read back, i did all i could to explain

onyx yew
# misty jackal just read back, i did all i could to explain

Man, what you said is:

  • Phonemes are a set of sounds, and /œ/ and /ø/ are the same phoneme.

Then, as I concluded before, I should make a difference between both, but you said "well no". Then, I ask why. You tell it's because they are the same phoneme, but, in fact, they can have different sounds, which means that /ø/ could be [ø] or [œ] and the same with /œ/. I said that I think I should make a difference between /œ/ and /ø/ just for distinguish them, not only for assuming they're phonemes.

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So, I ask… Why not?

misty jackal
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yeah you understood nothing

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/ø/ and /œ/ are two names for the same phoneme

onyx yew
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I understood that

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Do you really get what I'm trying to say?

misty jackal
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no

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whatever

onyx yew
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All this conversation for nothing

misty jackal
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it's my fault ig

onyx yew
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But okay, at least I've learnt something new about the difference between using // and []

onyx yew
misty jackal
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that was sarcasm

onyx yew
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You teached me something

misty jackal
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apparently not

onyx yew
onyx yew
misty jackal
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I should make a difference between /œ/ and /ø/ just for distinguish them, not only for assuming they're phonemes
makes no sense

onyx yew
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Because we're assuming that /œ/ = /ø/

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What I want is to disgusting them by assigning specific sounds: /œ/ = [œ] and /ø/ = [ø], even if /œ/ = /ø/

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Is it clear now?

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Or you'd tell me that's wrong too

misty jackal
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yes because /œ/ and /ø/ aren't separate things

onyx yew
misty jackal
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i pronounced recueillir with [ø] because it's /ø/ to me

misty jackal
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and objective

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if you really wanna sound fluent then you should look into the rules of when to use which

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in each dialect

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if you just wanna be understood then it doesn't matter

onyx yew
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I just want to sound the most native possible

misty jackal
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well then
i can't really help you with northern french

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but in southern french it's [ø] in open syllables and [œ] in close syllables

onyx yew
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Okay

turbid geyser
onyx yew
turbid geyser
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What Yez said may apply to Parisian French but not in southern French or any of the other dialects

onyx yew
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Which is the more "international" dialect of French? Parisian?

turbid geyser
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Like Belgian French still distinguishes between « patte » and « pâte » where the vowel for the second word is elongated to account for the missing S (what the circumflex represents)

onyx yew
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I always knew it

turbid geyser
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Metropolitan French lost that but not necessarily every other ones

onyx yew
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Circumflex represents missing S

turbid geyser
onyx yew
onyx yew
turbid geyser
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The standard dialect of French is based off of Parisian

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and in Parisian, there’s been changes including the weakening between the open/closed vowels in closed/open syllables respectively. The difference is still being made, sure, but it’s weakening every day

onyx yew
turbid geyser
onyx yew
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Yez was a kind of rude when I asked, so…

turbid geyser
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It’s also why, for example, dictionaries and the like still list /œ̃/ for <un> even though that vowel already merged with /ɛ̃/ (representing <in>) in Parisian French: other dialects still differentiate the two

onyx yew
turbid geyser