Bitnopa (corrigez svp)

[brave solar]

Please be patient

Our volunteers look into many questions every day; sometimes it takes them a little while to answer.

Pro tip: you can rename the thread title with `.tr <thread name>`

Make it descriptive, including relevant context, but also to the point. This way you improve your chances of getting a more relevant and specific answer.

[gentle thistle]

just gotta get used to the u sound

wait au dessous isn't a thing

it's au dessus and en dessous

[gritty leaf]

well, both au-dessus and au-dessous exist
but generally people say au-dessus and en dessous

but fundamentaly, if you don't have a native language that differentiates /u/ and /y/ it's just a matter of training your ear and there are no shortcuts

[terse haven]

with great difficulty which is why people say en dessous

i used to think au-dessus was haut-dessus

[gentle thistle]

nah i think i'd hear the difference

[gritty leaf]

yeah, natives don't really have difficulty with it

in verrrrry fast speech or where there's background noise it can be tough

[terse haven]

in the rain, on a train, on a phone call with poor service?

[gritty leaf]

but it's like the difference between
fifty
and
fifteen
for native English speakers - we generally have no issues

[terse haven]

i'd like to see you try

[gentle thistle]

omg i cant with that

personally

[gritty leaf]

hahah

or "can" and "can't" in American English lol

[gentle thistle]

yesss

but if u ask to clarify ppl will generally être compréhensif

[smoky steppe]

oh thank god au dessous is fake

see my french teacher was like "technically it's the proper way" and that has given me a complex about it for the last like 4 years

[gentle thistle]

what does technically even mean

[smoky steppe]

prob french academy BS

[gentle thistle]

i guess you can hear au dessous sometimes but en dessous sounds better

[smoky steppe]

https://youglish.com/pronounce/au_dessus/french/qc

found the site !!!

[gentle thistle]

youglish my beloved

[slim frigate]

I kept saying "dessus dessous" over and over again till it stuck

[smoky steppe]

i can def distinguish that way

problem's probably just my standard for comprehension being total omniscience

[opaque apex]

Personally, I just find it annoying that they're almost the same to say opposite things. It's purposely confusing. Like if we had "up" and "hup" instead of up and down. Derp. I know I know, the french forefathers are always right. Don't question it.

[strange oak]

they're more different than say "feet" and "fit" imo, the tongue positions are opposites

[opaque apex]

Maybe in your accent? In mine feet and fit are very distinctly different. And those have entirely different contexts/meanings from each other. They would not be possible to mix up. "I can't feet into this dress" doesn't make sense. Whereas dessous and dessus you could easily mix both sound and meanings. Especially in fast/unclear speech.

[terse haven]

yeah but imagine if feet and fit meant above and below

[strange oak]

i mean

[terse haven]

also those vowels historically shift to each other in english lol, like teat and tit or seat and sit

[opaque apex]

It's just one of those pranks they play on us learners

[strange oak]

i was only talking about the vowel sounds, there are plenty of other pairs that would be worse to confuse like cleet and clit, sheet and shit

[terse haven]

beach

[strange oak]

yeah that

[opaque apex]

My french friend struggles with beach and bitch

[terse haven]

show them the geoff lindsay video

that explains for french people how to distinguish them

it might change their life

[opaque apex]

I'll look for it😅

[terse haven]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GNpbv7hJf6c&pp=ygUFI3RvaWo%3D

[strange oak]

they're very close to each other in vowel space

much closer than /u/ and /y/

[opaque apex]

Is english your 1st lang?

[strange oak]

yes

[opaque apex]

They're super different for me.

[terse haven]

look up a vowel chart, they're quite similar

our ears are just so good at distinguishing htem, they appear to us as completely distinct

same for the french between u and ou

or confusingly /y/ and /u/ lol

[opaque apex]

My main thing is just Above and Below is a nice contrast for Opposite meanings. Dessous and Dessus sort of annoy me. It's just funny. Not a huge deal.

It's like if "you smell great" sounded almost identical to "you smell like shit."

[strange oak]

exactly as fquel said, it's a matter of mental adaptation. but as someone who speaks both languages, i think peet and pit sound closer than u and ou, and they're objectively closer on the vowel chart. it only gets more distinct as you train your ear.

the fact that peet and pit sound so different to you is a preview of what dessus and dessous will sound like after you've trained your ear enough

[opaque apex]

Peet and pit are not up and down

It's really not a massive deal. Can I just be annoyed by it? I've been exposed to french since I was 5. (Still suck at it, but oh well. )

[strange oak]

i mean. i literally messed it up in a dictée a while ago it could stand to be a little more different

thus the addition of au/en tho

[opaque apex]

Ah yes, I need a ton of practice with à/en/au etc.!

Is it 'au-dessus' and 'en-dessous'?

That feels right anyway

[strange oak]

yeah, or at least I'm pretty sure

[opaque apex]

Les prépositions

[terse haven]

yes

(h)au(t)-dessus

[opaque apex]

C'était ma pensée aussi. mercii.