#aero.cocoa

1 messages · Page 1 of 1 (latest)

viscid canyonBOT
#
Please be patient

Our volunteers look into many questions every day; sometimes it takes them a little while to answer.

Pro tip: you can rename the thread title with `.tr <thread name>`

Make it descriptive, including relevant context, but also to the point. This way you improve your chances of getting a more relevant and specific answer.

spiral holly
#

Okay so bit of a primer:
« après que » describes something that has already happened. Ergo, there is no doubt and thus no subjunctive. You'd use the indicative and it obeys the sequence of tenses so it'll always be one step below the main clause.
« Après qu'il aura fini son travail, il partira. »
« Après qu'il a fini son travail, il part. »
« Après qu'il avait fini son travail, il est parti. »
« Après qu'il aurait fini son travail, il partirait. »

sharp moon
#

so “après que je suis tombé” would be correct?

spiral holly
#

Yes if the main clause after or before it is « je me lève »

#

if it were « je me lèverai (I will stand up) », the correct tense would be « je serai tombé »

#

Remember, it obeys the sequence of tenses

sharp moon
#

sequence of tenses ?

spiral holly
#

Basically the order of things

sharp moon
#

what is “je serai tombé”?

spiral holly
sharp moon
#

why do we combine le futur and le passé

#

composé

spiral holly
#

It's the past version of the futur simple

sharp moon
spiral holly
#

We don't really use it much it in English but we do use it a lot in French

sharp moon
spiral holly
#

I'll send you the table later but the gist is this: Every tense has its own past tense. The futur simple has the futur antérieur, the présent has the passé composé, the imparfait has the plus-que-parfait, the conditionnel présent has the conditionnel passé, and the subjonctif présent has the subjonctif passé

sharp moon
spiral holly
#

They all follow the same pattern of auxiliary conjugated in the main tense plus the past participle

sharp moon
#

example from your sentence: Je vais revenir chez moi”

spiral holly
#

So, for example, if you're learning the plus-que-parfait, since it's the past version of the imparfait, the structure is the auxiliary in the imparfait plus the past participle

sharp moon
sharp moon
spiral holly
#

This is a timeline of the tenses. Disregard the passé simple and passé antérieur, they're dead to us

concordance-des-temps-1024x724.png
#

The basic idea is that each tense has its own past version in compound form

sharp moon
spiral holly
#

Right so mastering one tense automatically gives you its past tense

#

since the structure of every compound tense is always the same

#

ANYWAY

spiral holly
#

The point is that the subordinate tense is past to the main tense. With me so far?

sharp moon
spiral holly
sharp moon
spiral holly
#

I think it's about 50-50 with the past infinitive maybe found more in writing

#

Oh no

#

Past infinitive only works with same subjects

#

if different, you put the whole thing

sharp moon
#

“Après avoir fini mon travail, tu m'as ramené chez moi”

#

that works?

spiral holly
#

« Je me coucherai après que ma mère serait revenue chez nous »

#

I will go to sleep after my Mum came home

spiral holly
#

the one finishing the job is the same as the one carrying me

sharp moon
#

i’ve got to go, can we complete this conversation after my class ? 😭🙏

spiral holly
#

I'll put the rest of the explanation

#

because it's like midnight where I am

sharp moon
#

Je viens d'arriver à l'école

sharp moon
spiral holly
#

and I hadn't completely explained everything

sharp moon
#

on peut continuer ça plus tard

spiral holly
#

Anyway, as you've seen, the subordinate tense is always to the past of the main tense. Now we move over to another thing called « avant que (before) ». « avant que » is the opposite of « après que ». If « après que » describes the past, « avant que » describes the future. The main tense describes something that happened before the subordinate in this case. Now, because the future is not set in stone, it's not clear, « avant que » always uses the subjunctive.
« Je me suis réveillé avant que tu partes. »
'I woke up before you left.'

#

Because native speakers find there to be parallels with « avant que » and « après que », they tend to use the subjunctive after « après que » even though the conjunction demands the indicative. Thus, you will see the subjunctive used. In formal writing, you're always going to be asked to put the indicative after « après que » but when you're out and about with French natives, you'll almost always hear the subjunctive.

#

With that out of the way, why did I bother writing about the sequence of tenses? Well, the subjunctive only has two tenses: the present and the past. Because « après que » describes something happening before the main tense, any usage of « après que » with the subjunctive will only use the past subjunctive.

#

« Après qu'il aura fini son travail, il partira. »
« Après qu'il a fini son travail, il part. »
« Après qu'il avait fini son travail, il est parti. »
« Après qu'il aurait fini son travail, il partirait. »

All four would collapse into:
« Après qu'il ait fini son travail, il partira. »
« Après qu'il ait fini son travail, il part. »
« Après qu'il ait fini son travail, il est parti. »
« Après qu'il ait fini son travail, il partirait. »

knotty juniper
#

idk if bertie mentioned this already, but using the subjunctive with "après que" is a common native mistake, since "avant que" does use the subjunctive.

so that's probably why you've seen both

spiral holly
#

(literally the message above yours)

#

but yes that

#

I hesitate to call it a 'mistake' because it's become so common now that you might as well learn about it

knotty juniper
#

sorry lol

spiral holly
#

usually with mistakes we brush it off but with « après que + subjunctive » it's so prevalent that even I use it

spiral holly
sharp moon
sharp moon
sharp moon
#

similar to nous vs on?

spiral holly
#

Neither of those two things are formal/informal

#

It's more like… Written/oral?

#

Not just written but like formal writing

#

You totally hear politicians speaking in formal settings like the parliament for example with « on » and « après que je sois arrivée »

sharp moon
spiral holly
#

it's only in written speeches and oratories that you get « nous » and « après que je suis arrivée » for instance

sharp moon
#

macron used on a lot

spiral holly
#

Even outside of that, if you're talking to your boss which is one of the situations where the tu/vous distinction comes into play, you'd still do on fait/après que je sois arrivée instead of nous faisons/après que je suis arrivée

#

Mind you it's « après que je suis/sois [past participle] »

#

because if it's just « après que je suis/sois » you might be tempted to use the present when really it's the past and the past participle is omitted

sharp moon
sharp moon
spiral holly
#

It’s like the second element of passé composé

sharp moon
#

yea the passive voice

spiral holly
#

J’ai fait quelque chose
Je suis arrivé chez moi

sharp moon
#

“il est connu”

spiral holly
sharp moon
#

connu is passive voice

#

using être instead of avoir

spiral holly
#

You’ve not learnt être passé composé it seems

#

Read that

sharp moon
#

but when a verb that normally uses avoir is then used with être, it becomes passive voice

spiral holly
#

Yes well « arriver » is one of them

sharp moon
#

example i used was connaitre

#

yes i know that, but what is past participle then?

spiral holly
#

Like right now

sharp moon
#

i have around 15 mins !

spiral holly
#

Alright I'll make this quick

#

Every conjugated verb has two parts: a personal and informational element to it. Personal here means that the verb changes according to the subject's person and number (first-person singular, third-person plural, etc), the tense (simple present, imperfect), and so on; informational here means that the verb is doing something (the act of talking, of doing, etc)

#

For example, when I say « je parle », the word « parle » contains two bits of information: personal (first-person singular, indicative present, ambiguous gender) and informational (to eat) so you get 'I eat'

#

If I change the subject from « je « to « elles », the verb changes from « parle » to « parlent » because the personal element changes (instead of first-person singular, it's now third-person plural; instead of ambiguous gender, it is explicitly feminine). However, the informational element doesn't change; we're still talking about the act of eating.

sharp moon
#

yea, subject - verb agreement right?

spiral holly
#

exactly

#

This is what we call a 'simple' tense because you only need to deal with one verb to handle both bits of information

#

Conversely, we have what we call a 'compound' tense because they split up this personal/informational element. Take the passé composé « j'ai parlé ». If I change the subject from « je » to « elles », I get « elles ont fait ». Why did only the auxiliary change? Well, that's because the auxiliary contains ONLY the personal element.

#

Where is the informational element? It's right there in the past participle.

#

You cannot separate one from the other. If I just said « il a », you have no idea what it is I'm doing because there is no informational element; if I just said « il parlé », there is no verb because there is no personal element

sharp moon
#

☠️

#

i thought past participle was a tense 🤦‍♂️

#

oopsies

#

my bad

spiral holly
#

That's why you can't just say « après que je suis/sois » because I have no idea whether you meant the present or the past subjunctive

#

that's why my examples always include the past participle to tell you that it's the past subjunctive or the compound past tenses

sharp moon
#

can i practise a little bit rn?

spiral holly
#

sure

#

On your question of the passive, the past participle is fundamentally an adjective which is why it's used in the passive voice

sharp moon
#

“ Après je suis arrivé, t’es parti”

#

verbally using sois

spiral holly
#

« que » starts a lot of subordinate clauses and it's mandatory

sharp moon
spiral holly
#

when you use the indicative with « après que », you have to respect the sequence of tenses

#

« je suis arrivé » is the same tense as « tu es parti » so the order is not there

sharp moon
#

i thought the imparfait only referred to habitual things?

spiral holly
#

whatever happens with « après que » must use a tense that precedes the main tense

spiral holly
#

Auxiliary conjugated in the imparfait plus the past participle

#

It's to describe an event further in the past

sharp moon
#

oh right

#

combining imparfait and passe compose

spiral holly
sharp moon
sharp moon
#

these lexical terms are so confusing 😭🙏

#

i think its called périphrasis in french

spiral holly
#

Sorry

sharp moon
spiral holly