#mr.moderino

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jade roverBOT
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river lagoon
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@loud jewel

I am asking
You used a conjugation in English.

I am
You are
He/She/It is
We are
You are
They are
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Three different conjugations.

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and not in English
There tend to be less conjugations (only the third person singular changes for most verbs/cases). You still have to conjugate, though.

loud jewel
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Let me re explain. This sentence: ''
Subject Conjugation Translation
Je parle I speak / I am speaking
Tu parles You speak / You are speaking
Il/Elle parle He/She speaks / He/She is speaking
Nous parlons We speak / We are speaking
Vous parlez You speak (formal/plural)
Ils/Elles parlent They speak / They are speaking''

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I am unclear why Parle turns into Parle, Parles, parle, parlons for we, parlez for plural vous, and parlent for Ils/Elles. Also something else that confuses me is that Ils/Elle is pronounced the same as Il/Elle so I never understood how people understood if you are saying he or they while speaking in real life

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Why not just have Je Parle, Tu parle, il/Elle Parle, Nous Parle

river lagoon
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how people understood if you are saying he or they
By listening to the conjugation.

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Oh, I get what you mean.

loud jewel
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Thank you for help by the way

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I don't understand the fundemental reason why verb conjugations exist and it's causing a road block in my French.

river lagoon
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You're right, those will sound pretty much the same for a lot of regular verbs in the present tense.

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Other tenses distinguish them a little more (usually).

river lagoon
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Conjugating is the system that most languages have evolved to deal with that.

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Going back to my earlier point in English:

  • Why is it not 'She are' or 'She am'?
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Even if there isn't a fundamental reason, it's still one of the most important aspects of learning a language.

wind jewel
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Simply because… they exist

wind jewel
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Language is language because it just is

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The issue you're having is why French has them and English doesn't. On that front, it's just how the languages developed. French used to have a much more robust system, such so that you can just say the verb and the person can be implied. That's still the case in Spanish where I can say 'hablo' and you'll understand that as 'I speak' because each conjugation is distinct enough. Conversely, if I just say « parle », you don't know if I mean « je/tu/il/ils » because they align.

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In that case, I'll just reverse the mentality. Why does English not have gender like French? Gender is so easy for disambiguation and doesn't require repetition.
'I like both the regular chair and the armchair, but I prefer … more.'
There's no way to complete that phrase without repeating the object, 'regular chair/armchair', but you can do that as handily in French:
« J'aime tous les deux la chaise et le fauteuil, mais je le/la préfère plus. »
where:
le = le fauteuil (armchair)
la = la chaise (chair)

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Why does English differentiate between the progressive (be verb-ing) and the simple? Isn't context enough?
Why does English put the verb 'to do' to ask questions and negate phrases? Why not just invert or put an adverb?
Why doesn't English make its articles agree with the noun? How do I know if something is uncountable or not?

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My point here is that asking the 'why' of things, from a learner's perspective and not from like a historical linguistics perspective, it's just folly. There's no reason why French does or doesn't have X compared to English, it just is.

lethal gust
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Exactly what bertie says

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A language doesn't develop with simplicity in mind as an endgoal

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To ask why a language is a certain you'd have to ask thousands of ppl throughout history

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But it's a good question tho what you're asking

wind jewel
lethal gust
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Well less things to take into account when learning

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Youre gonna bring up how natives perceive easiness differently rite

wind jewel
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my native language Indonesian doesn't have any verb conjugation nor does it have tenses but we have a wicked system of infixes/suffixes/prefixes plus my options to express tenses are a lot more limited

lethal gust
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Oh no that

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So trade off

wind jewel
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An outsider might see my verbs as 'simple' but it's not like it's going to be easy

wind jewel
lethal gust
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Like the subjonctif.....

wind jewel
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Conjugation is a trade-off because with Spanish's distinct forms, for example, sure, you have to learn 6 different forms per tense but you don't have to include the subject pronoun in every clause whereas French has to do that because its conjugational forms have weakened a lot

lethal gust
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It's conjugation makes up for it's other aspects

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Wow

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Didnt you were a linguistic history guy

wind jewel
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because I sometimes see English learners having a hard time understanding the imparfait and the conditionnel présent because English translation relies on the modal verbs 'would/could/should'

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English speakers just never realise how much shit modals are carrying, grammatically

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'If I could go, I would'
the first modal is a past statement
the second modal is a future-in-past/counterfactual statement
yet they're part of the same group, modal auxiliaries

river lagoon
lethal gust
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The Académie should introduce a new set accomodating the gender of the subject

river lagoon
loud jewel
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Sorry I had an emergency, I'd love to carry on today

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Thank you of course, @river lagoon I think my problem is that I have English as the #1 language in the world, I'm relating everything to English, every sentence is being translated for English and in an English point of view. It's challenging at first to step into unknown territories for the first time.

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To continue, I want to relate back to this example For English: '' The verb "speak" is the same for all pronouns (I speak, you speak, he speaks). We use pronouns (I, you, he) to show who is doing it.'' You said verb conjugation changes the word speak to explain ''Who is doing it'', ''What are they doing'' and ''When are they doing it and tense''. This is a great explanation and I understand it a little bit. But my question is, does English also explain who is doing it, what they are doing and when they are doing it?

vestal dagger
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Well no, the verb to speak isn't always the same since it takes an s with he/she/it, that is also conjugation

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I totally get your point, in English you know who is doing it since there is always a pronoun. On the opposite, pronouns are not mandatory in Spanish, but verbs have a different conjugation for each person (for what I know), so no ambiguity either
Given this, having different pronouns and different conjugations for French can seem redundant. But as said it's just... the way it is, of course it would be easier if there was no conjugation.
I just know it comes from latin, there wasn't pronouns at this time though

river lagoon
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I am. I was. I will be.

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Conjugations.

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The base verbs here are 'to be' and 'to speak'.

wind jewel
# loud jewel Hello can you give an example of these points when you say ''why does english pu...

Why does English differentiate between the progressive (be verb-ing) and the simple? Isn't context enough?
–> I am eating vs I eat, I've eaten vs I've been eating, I had eaten vs I had been eating

Why does English put the verb 'to do' to ask questions and negate phrases? Why not just invert or put an adverb?
-> You live here. => Do you live here?
-> You ate that apple. => Why did you eat that apple?
-> I know the truth. => I don't know the truth.
-> They wanted to go. => They didn't want to go.

Why doesn't English make its articles agree with the noun? How do I know if something is uncountable or not?
-> English has 'this hand/these hands, that car/those cars', but why just 'the car/the cars'?

wind jewel
# loud jewel To continue, I want to relate back to this example For English: '' The verb "spe...

English does it but only in the singular third person for the vast, vast majority of verbs, and only in the present.
'I speak, you speak, he speaks, we speak, they speak'.
Spanish, on the other hand, has distinct enough forms to drop the pronouns:
« (yo) hablo, (tú) hablas, (el) habla, (nosotros) hablamos, (vosotros) habláis, (ellos) hablan ».

As you can see, the information is the same but they have trade-offs. With English, the lack of clear conjugation is easier to learn but you need to have a subject pronoun whereas with Spanish, the conjugation forms are harder to learn since each are different but they don't need there to be a subject pronoun.

loud jewel
loud jewel
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Which is challenging to get used as as selfish English speaker who sees English as the language that all languages should follow since English is all I know.

loud jewel
river lagoon
river lagoon
loud jewel
# wind jewel Why does English differentiate between the progressive (be verb-ing) and the sim...

Are you saying the French negate phrases and questions is superior to English? I think the French does ''est ce que'' or raise the voice in normal order or inverts. When you say ''You live here. > Do you live here and ''You ate that apple> Why did you eat that apple. What is the issue with these sentences. Seems normal from my point of view. What do you mean when you say ''Why doesn't English make its articles agree with the noun'' What system does French do superior in this element when you say ''This hand/these hands/ that car/those cars. I'm intrigued and interested to see things from a French point of view

loud jewel
charred hollow
wind jewel
# loud jewel Are you saying the French negate phrases and questions is superior to English? I...

It does. Okay, I have an observation for you to see:

He sees it. –> Does he see it?
He saw it. –> He didn't see it.
The conjugated verb is in bold.
What's the matter with these two sentences? Well, remember that in English and French, you only conjugate once per subject; you say, 'He likes to drink coffee' and not 'He likes drinks coffee'. The addition of 'to do' in both cases shifts the conjugation from the main verb 'to see' to 'to do', and that's maybe normal for you, but it's not to learners.
If I were to say:
He sees it. –> Sees he it?
He saw it. –> He saw not it.
You would think that I was crazy. Why? How come the first set is correct but the second isn't? That's a valid question. French's « est-ce que » doesn't change anything, by comparison:
Il le voit. –> Est-ce qu'il le voit ?
Il l'a vu. –> Est-ce qu'il l'a vu ?
Nor does it negation:
Il le voit. –> Il ne le voit pas.
Il l'a vu. –> Il ne l'a pas vu.

wind jewel
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It helps in making sure everything clicks together, that's what agreement is. The conjugation for parler is « je parle, tu parles, il parle, nous parlons, vous parlez, ils parlent ». The point of these forms is for you to be able to connect them: « parlons » is for « nous » so there's never any case where you say, « je parlons, tu parlons, il parlons, vous parlons, ils parlons »

wind jewel
loud jewel
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Truthfully, I don't understand the il le voit section at the end yet. I know il means he, and I'm still learning why French inserts le and la in sentences, I know ''He sees'' and it's not ''He the sees'' I think you are trying to say the il le voite > est-ce qu'il le voit is cleaner and more consistent.

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Right now I've seen a video on the negate part so I'll still need to brush up on that in the future as well. Making progress slowly but surely

loud jewel
wind jewel
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When objects refer to a real noun – which is gendered – the definite pronouns also work as 'it', agreeing to the noun's gender
« Je vois le garage (I see the garage) / Je le vois (I see it/him) »
« Je vois la gare (I see the train station) / Je la vois (I see it/her) »

wind jewel
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The fun thing about agreement is that it makes things fit like a puzzle because they share the same number and gender. If you're describing several different objects, you can use their gender to render it clear. I forgot who asked this question but someone once did about the function of gender.
Say I have this sentence: I like both the regular chair and the armchair but I prefer […]
In English, there's no way for me to complete that sentence without repeating the noun; if I just say 'it', there's no clear way for you to know which one I'm referring to. I have to say either 'I prefer the regular chair' or 'I prefer the armchair'.
In French, because these two objects have different genders (la chaise/le fauteuil), we can differentiate by gender: « la » for the regular chair and « le » for the armchair.

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To your question specifically, it's more like how, 'We are' is right but 'We am' isn't

wind jewel
loud jewel
wind jewel
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About your question for « son » and « lui » :
(1) « son » here is a possessive adjective, corresponding to English 'his/her' like 'his pen (son stylo)'. Why 'him/her'? French possessives agree with the possessed and not the possessor. Okay, let me give you four examples.
'Stephen likes his new car.'
'Stephen likes his new cars.'
'Catherine likes her new car.'
'Catherine likes her new cars.'
As we can see in the examples above, the possessive 'his/her' describing the nouns 'new car/cars' agree with the possessor, 'Stephen/Catherine' respectively. It only changes because the possessor changed person from man to woman.
« Stéphane aime sa nouvelle voiture. »
« Stéphane aime ses nouvelles voitures. »
« Catherine aime sa nouvelle voiture. »
« Catherine aime ses nouvelles voitures. »
As we can see in the examples above, the possessive « son/sa/ses » agrees instead with the noun it modifies, « la nouvelle voiture/les nouvelles voitures » respectively. As you can see, it agrees in gender (sa) and number (ses). If I were to switch that noun so a masculine noun, say « le vélo (the bicycle) », I'd get a masculine version:
« Stéphane aime son nouveau vélo. »
« Stéphane aime ses nouveaux vélos. »
« Catherine aime son nouveau vélo. »
« Catherine aime ses nouveaux vélo. »
That's why we translate that as 'his/her': Because the gender of the possessive agrees with the gender of the possessed and not the possessor. This goes for all possessive adjectives like « mon/ma/mes (my), ton/ta/tes (your, informal/singular), notre/nos (our, masc/fem agreement is the same), votre/vos (your, formal/plural, masc/fem agreement is the same), and leur/leurs (their) ».

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(2) « lui » is a bit more nuanced because there's two kinds of « lui »: The indirect object « lui » and the tonic pronoun « lui ».
The indirect object is used when you're referring to, well, an indirect object. Indirect objects mean that they require a preposition between the object and the verb but for the indirect object pronouns, the preposition can only be « à/pour ». For example, « Je parle à Adam » becomes « Je lui parle ». Since it's an object pronoun, it's placed before the conjugated verb. « lui » doesn't observe gender so it doesn't matter if the object is « à Adam, à Catherine », the result will still be « lui ». It does observe number, the plural being « leur ».
« Je parle à Adam –> Je lui parle »
« Je parle à Catherine –> Je lui parle »
« Je parle à Adam et à Catherine –> Je leur parle »
Do note that this system only works for living beings. If your indirect object is inanimate, something that is not a living being, you use « y ».
« Je réponds à Adam –> Je lui réponds »
« Je répondsà la question –> J'y réponds »

The tonic pronoun is used when you're referring to someone directly or calling someone out like:
'Who do you love, me or him?'
« Qui est-ce que tu aimes, moi ou lui ? »
For tonic pronouns, « lui » is exclusively masculine, the feminine being « elle ».
'You have to choose between her and him.'
« Il faut choisir entre elle et lui. »

loud jewel
loud jewel
# wind jewel French's clause structure is Subject Verb Object, like English, but when it come...

Ah so inspiration from Latin! Lets ignore lui and leur since I'm not at that level yet and haven't seen it in any of my apps or youtube videos.Lets stick with the object pronouns. I'm still a bit lost on this for example 'Original Sentence: Elle mange la pomme. (She eats the apple.)

Direct Object Pronoun: la (it - feminine singular)
With Pronoun: Elle la mange. (She eats it.)'' It's very different to see the sentence structure of Elle la mange to say it. Same with ''With Pronoun: Il te voit. (He sees you.)

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Chatgpt gives this example ''Object Pronouns Summary:

An object pronoun is used to replace a noun that receives the action of the verb. It helps avoid repeating the noun in a sentence.

Types and Examples:

Direct Object Pronouns:

me (me) - Tu me vois. (You see me.)
te (you - singular informal) - Il te cherche. (He’s looking for you.)
le (him/it - masculine) - Je le vois. (I see him/it.)
la (her/it - feminine) - Elle la mange. (She eats it.)
nous (us) - Ils nous aiment. (They love us.)
vous (you - formal/plural) - Je vous écoute. (I’m listening to you.)
les (them - plural) - Nous les attendons. (We are waiting for them.)''

wind jewel
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« lui/leur » are also object pronouns but they're indirect object pronouns

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Je parle à Louis –> Je lui parle
Je parle à Louis et à Anne –> Je leur parle