senka7411

[fallow sand]

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[tawdry latch]

One of my questions was about the meaning of "à ce que." The response I received was:
I think "à ce qu'à le lire" is an old way to say "en le lisant".
However, I noticed that "dise" is in the present subjunctive form, so I think "à le lire, il se dise (...)" might be a subordinate clause.
After further research, I found that in French, expressions like the following are used:

Oui, à ce qu'il paraît, il va devenir directeur d'une usine de rayonne, là-bas.

And it seems that the following expressions are also possible in French, when not reporting something heard but your own impression:

À ce qu'il me paraît
À ce qu'il me semble

I think "à ce" means "according to the information being discussed", in this context.
From this, it seems that a complete sentence can follow "à ce que," in the same way as “jusqu’à ce que.”
Therefore, should the initial passage be interpreted as follows?

Le message est déchiffré et revient de lui, à ce qu'il se dise n'être pas plus feint que la vérité. (à le lire = en le lisant = in reading it?)

I think “ce” is “le message de Poe déchiffré et revenant de lui.”
Is this interpretation valid? Also, could you explain the meaning of "à ce que" in this context?

[north bane]

The issue is that « à ce que »'s meaning is contextual. On its own, « à ce que » just means, 'to what', composed of two things: the preposition « à (commonly 'to') » and the indefinite relative pronoun « ce que (what) ». This is the meaning that comes with:
« À ce qu'il me parait (To what it appears to me) »
« À ce qu'il me semble (To what it seems to me) ».

« Jusqu'à ce que » is a different case. Okay, so stepping a further back: Subordinating onjunctions – words that connect to unequal clauses – will usually get an additional « que » when we use a clause with them compared to not. An example I'll use is « pour, après ».
–> « Après avoir pris la clé, j'ai déverrouillé la porte. (After taking the key, I unlocked the door.) »
–> « Pour se sentir mieux, elle boit une tasse de thé. (In order to feel better, she drinks a glass of tea.) »
As we can see, what follows the conjunction (well because it's not followed by a clause it's more of a preposition) is not a clause so we just put the bare form.

–> « Après que j'avais pris la clé, j'ai déverrouillé la porte. (After I had taken the key, I unlocked the door.) »
–> « Pour qu'elle se sente mieux, elle boit une tasse de thé. (In order for her to feel better [or: so that she feels better], she drinks a glass of tea.) »
Here, what follows the preposition is another clause, something that has a subject and a verb: « j'avais pris la clé / elle se sent mieux » respectively. Because of that, « que » is added in. Do note that « pour que » takes the subjunctive; a portion of subordinating conjunctions take it.

Where does « à ce que » come into the game? Well, notice that those prepositions are direct – they don't end in another preposition like « à ». However, some do like « jusqu'à ». The thing is that « que », by definition as a direct relative pronoun, has to, well, take a direct object. Any object introduced by a preposition will, by definition, be indirect. So, we put a dummy « ce » to act as an indirect object. That's why if we take « jusqu'à », we'll see that:
« Je garderai ce secret jusqu'à la mort. (I will guard this secret until death.) »
« Je garderai ce secret jusqu'à ce que je meure. (I will guard this secret until I die.) »

[tawdry latch]

Up to this point, I understand

[north bane]

So, while « à ce que » can be followed by a clause – and it does since « ce que » is an object pronoun – its function varies depending on context

Unfortunately, while I've found the original text, I can't seem to find references to what structure this is, so I can't tell you why the subjunctive is there

[tawdry latch]

okay

This is the previous sentence.

C'est bien la question que nous pose ce lecteur nouveau dont on nous fait argument pour rassembler ces écrits. Nous lui ménageons un palier dans notre style, en donnant à la Lettre volée le privilège d'ouvrir leur suite en dépit de la diachronie de celle-ci.

A ce lecteur de rendre à la lettre en question, au-delà de ceux qui firent un jour son adresse, cela même qu'il y trouvera pour mot de la fin : sa destination. A savoir le message de Poe déchiffré et revenant de lui, lecteur, à ce qu'à le lire, il se dise n'être pas plus feint que la vérité quand elle habite la fiction.

However, this text is very philosophical

These texts might be insufficient

The author of this text argues that after a message is sent, its meaning is determined by the receiver, who then conveys it back to the sender

[dapper jungle]

Interesting

[north bane]

It's just finding what « à ce qu'à le lire, il se dise » means

[tawdry latch]

my interpretation is wrong?

[north bane]

« À savoir le message de Poe déchiffré et revenant de lui, lecteur … il se dit n'être pas plus feint que la vérité quand elle habite la fiction. »
'To know Poe's understood message and coming back from it, [dear] reader … he claims to be no more put-on/feigned than the truth when [the truth] inhabits fiction.'

he's basically saying that by understanding Poe's message, it (either Poe or the reader) is claiming to be fake af

[tawdry latch]

Thank you
what you mean is my sentence (à ce qu'il se dise n'être pas plus feint que la vérité.) is not flawed, but ce is not "le message"?

I will think about it carefully

[dapper jungle]

Are you trying to tackle all of Écrits ?

[tawdry latch]

yes, with the help of english translation

[dapper jungle]

Wow c'est plutôt dingue ça, courage

[tawdry latch]

I'm going crazy

[dapper jungle]

Sans vouloir être indiscret, est-ce que tu fais ou tu as fait des études en philosophie ? (Ou quelque chose liée à ça)

[north bane]

Yeah, « ce » in « à ce que » doesn’t refer to anything, it’s either the relative pronoun « ce que » or the indirect subordinate conjunction clause-marker « à ce que »

Like you know

« Je m’attends à ce que tu viennes plus tôt (I expect you to come earlier) »

Because « s’attendre à qqch » takes an indirect object so you can’t just put « que » at the end

[dapper jungle]

You can see this in the very first sentence too, « (...) ni s'inquiéter de ce que l'homme ne soit plus référence si certaine. » to introduce another clause to something that doesn't just take one normally (correct me if i'm wrong)

[tawdry latch]

I think I understand

[tawdry latch]

I took psychoanalysis classes at university

[dapper jungle]

That explains your interest

Would you say that this book is rather quintessential in your field ?

[tawdry latch]

Of course, it's like the Bible except for Freud's works

[dapper jungle]

Wild

Do you have a study group to read it with or is this purely out of a personal intellectual curiosity?

[tawdry latch]

I read the English version by myself, but we are reading the original French version with a few people as part of studying French

[dapper jungle]

Ah ofc you did

That's cool

They share the same interest ?

Or is it just a huge coincidence that you happened to have studied it before

[tawdry latch]

It's like a dilettante Lacanian group

[tawdry latch]

merci beaucoup
Français is very difficult

[dapper jungle]

Oh thats cool

[tawdry latch]

I sincerely apologize for interrupting you.
Since then, I have re-read your text multiple times, and my understanding has deepened considerably.

Taking into account your translation, "by understanding Poe's message, it (either Poe or the reader) is claiming to be fake," I’ve considered the use of "à ce que" in this context.
I think the preposition "à" functions as "to", indicating a shift in state or, in a metaphorical sense, the destination, much like in the phrase "aller à Paris."
In this case, it could represent a transition from the state of "understanding Poe's message" to the state of "the reader is claiming."

In other words, the interpretation of it could be that "by understanding Poe's message, the reader is claiming to be fake."
Are there any issues with this line of thinking?

I apologize for being persistent.

[north bane]

No problem, it's all fine. I'm actually thinking that « à ce qu'à le lire » is 'which is to be read'

'To know Poe's understood message and coming back from it, Reader, which is to be read (as in, you should read it to know it), it (the message) claims to be no more put-on/feigned than the truth when [the truth] inhabits fiction.'

[tawdry latch]

thank you

In fact, this author uses 'à + infinitive' similarly to how English uses the participial construction (according to my interpretation) , as in the sentence below

Et rappelons que ce principe s'est appliqué à sa propre énonciation, puisqu'à avoir été émis par nous, c'est d'un autre, interlocuteur éminent, qu'il a reçu sa meilleure frappe.

in this sentence, “à avoir été émis par nous” means “although we’ve proposed it”

so i think “à le lire” means “when he reads it“
and “à ce que” indicates “il se dise”

[north bane]

Perhaps but I'm still sceptical…

[tawdry latch]

Is this usage strange?

[north bane]

the fact that I couldn't find it anywhere seems to agree with that

plus even the native French speaker who replied to your question some time ago was confused lol

[tawdry latch]

It is often said that even French people find Lacan difficult to read...

Thank you for teaching me so much

[dapper jungle]

@tawdry latch you had read Bruce Fink's translation no ?

[tawdry latch]

I’m reading it, but I wasn’t convinced by his translation of this part.

[dapper jungle]

It really elucidates a lot for me

In any case it's ridiculously intricately written

[dapper jungle]

I should say that at the same time i fail to understand most of it still lol

[tawdry latch]

It seems that Fink incorporates quite a bit of his own interpretation into his translation

[dapper jungle]

Even Fink admitted in his translator's note that he no doubt missed a bunch of references and meaning from the original

[dapper jungle]

You believe at some points he did not try to be faithful to the original, that is ?

His own interpretation as in philosophical interpretation ?

[tawdry latch]

yes
For example, in the preceding sentence, Fink translates 'un palier' as 'an easy entryway,' but I think it should be translated as 'an intermediate stage'

[dapper jungle]

En fait, dans ce cas-là il faut bien connaître le contexte ; ici, on traduit « À savoir » par « Namely »

[tawdry latch]

Yes, this is an important difference

[north bane]

Oui, c’est définitivement possible que je l’aie mal traduite puisque je sais pas le contexte

J’y ai pensé, à utiliser « Namely » au lieu de « To know’», mais étant donné le reste de la phrase, j’ai choisi le dernier.

[dapper jungle]

Ah ok on comprend

[north bane]

‘Namely, Poe’s deciphered message and coming back from that… It claims to be no more false than when truth inhabits fiction’
Ça a pas de sens pour moi, mais:
‘To know Poe’s deciphered message and coming back from that… It claims to be no more false than when truth inhabits fiction’
Ça a plus de sens.

Comme si « à savoir … revenant de lui » est connecté

[tawdry latch]

i agree

[dapper jungle]

« Au fig. [Dans une évolution, un processus] Période intermédiaire de stabilité, de répit » (Le trésor de la langue)

Voici la définition de « palier »

I can see "east entryway" making sense. He designates a "stage" or a "moment of stability", where the reader is allowed to relax a little bit and not intellectually strain himself as much (répit)

However, intermediate stage could also make sense. Why, in particular, do you reject "easy entryway" ?

[tawdry latch]

Indeed, the meaning makes sense. According to the dictionary, 'palier' is a landing on a staircase. So, if translated literally, it would be 'intermediate stage.' However, this is not crucial here, so either term would work

[north bane]

It should be noted that there is no such thing as being 'faithful to the original' because the question becomes: faithful in terms of what? You either translate things literally and risk stiff translations or translate figuratively but risk misunderstandings between the original and the translation

[tawdry latch]

yeah

[dapper jungle]

Yes exactly, the translator's job is to interpret

But apparently Fink fails to convey the philosophical ideas

[north bane]

For example, if I were to translate « Il se dit n'être pas plus feint que la vérité quand elle habite la fiction », a literal 'faithful' translation would be: 'It is said to not be any more false than the truth when it inhabits fiction'. That's faithful to the wording but comes off as stilted. A better translation would be: 'It claims that it isn't anymore false than the truth inhabiting fiction'. It's a lot better to my eyes but it's not exactly 'faithful' to the text

[dapper jungle]

I don't blame him with a text as dense

[tawdry latch]

I know exactly what you mean
https://getyarn.io/yarn-clip/4e3f2ee3-add9-48ad-9d67-e15bbd8a6d42

[dapper jungle]

This is important to note. "Intermediate stage" reads differently than "easy entryway" malgré qu'ils reviennent à la même chose

Unless they are indeed strictly different?

[north bane]

Hmm… I don't think I would've said either?

C'est bien la question que nous pose ce lecteur nouveau dont on nous fait argument pour rassembler ces écrits. Nous lui ménageons un palier dans notre style, en donnant à la Lettre volée le privilège d'ouvrir leur suite en dépit de la diachronie de celle-ci.
A ce lecteur de rendre à la lettre en question, au-delà de ceux qui firent un jour son adresse, cela même qu'il y trouvera pour mot de la fin : sa destination. A savoir le message de Poe déchiffré et revenant de lui, lecteur, à ce qu'à le lire, il se dise n'être pas plus feint que la vérité quand elle habite la fiction.
It is the question that this new reader asks us which the argument has been made in order to collect these writings. We make a space in our style/way for it by giving to the Purloined Letter the privilege of opening their future developments in spite of the historicity of this [letter].
To this reader giving back this letter in question, beyond those that one day made its address, even though there will be found the finishing word: its destination. Knowing Poe's message and coming back from it, reader, which is to be read, it claims to be as true as the truth when it inhabits fiction.

[tawdry latch]

i see

[dapper jungle]

That's wholly different from Fink's translation. To what or to whom refers "it" ? The reader, the question, the letter, the collection ?

[north bane]

To be fair, I'm entirely unfamiliar with this and I'm also not a philosopher so differences are to be expected.
'It' – if you're referring to '… in our style/way for it', it's « la question ».

[dapper jungle]

Ah, Fink translates lui to him, referring to this new reader

[north bane]

Translators have to know intimately what they're translating to produce something that is closer to the intended meaning. I'm just a passer-by, really

[dapper jungle]

And what does "to make a space in one's style/way mean to you?

[dapper jungle]

No exactly

[tawdry latch]

I apologize for complaining about the translation here, but it’s not important,

[north bane]

Thing is, « ménager » just takes a single direct object and « lui » here is indirect. It can either be « pour lui (reader)/elle (the question) ». I assumed it was « la question » simply because it's the object of the main clause of the previous sentence.

[dapper jungle]

We really derailed 😂 the main goal is indeed to understand the structure of the French original, and deduce from it proper meaning

[north bane]

I have no bloody clue

[dapper jungle]

Ah ouais

[dapper jungle]

Having said that, i brought up Fink's translation because it does, for the English speaker, offer a good deal of insight (supposedly, probably)

Upon further analysis, I notice
« A savoir le message de Poe déchiffré et revenant de lui, lecteur (...) »
Lacan makes the point that our "message" is a reflection of your interlocteur. The above quote could, ainsi, reference just that ; Poe's decyphered message comes from reader himself. Is this an interpretation you could stand behind ?

[dapper jungle]

This is very interesting !

[tawdry latch]

yes
One of Lacan's main assertions is that meaning is determined by the Other.
The graph below illustrates this.

I apologize for speaking in a roundabout way (laughs).

[dapper jungle]

I'm too uneducated to make sense of this 😵‍💫

[tawdry latch]

yes, this is too difficult...

[dapper jungle]

I understand $....

[tawdry latch]

i dont think so...

[dapper jungle]

Me neither...

Is your group of dilettantes struggling with the same passages as you?

[tawdry latch]

yes

[dapper jungle]

So according to Lacan... Your idea is dilettant A's idea, dilettant's A idea is that of B, and B's idea is yours. I thus conclude you all have the same idea

No but jokes aside, this seems like a really interesting subject. Auparavant, I only knew about Freud when it came to anything psychoanalytic

I've come to understand that there is Lacanian thought, and the Freudian school, no? Which speaks to you the most?

[tawdry latch]

do you know Lacan insisted on returning to Freud?
To be Lacanian is synonymous with being Freudian

[tawdry latch]

To restate this correctly, in this case it is Poe who receives the message.

la communication intersubjective : où l'émetteur, vous disons-nous, reçoit du récepteur son propre message sous une forme inversée. (Ecrits)

[dapper jungle]

No i didn't know that

[dapper jungle]

Ah oui, tu as tout à fait raison

J'ai fait un peu de recherches dans les dictionnaires à propos du tour « A savoir (...), à ce qu'à le lire, il se dise n'être pas plus feint que la vérité quand elle habite la fiction. » , voici ce que j'ai pu en trouver :

Il semble que le premier « à » sert à désigner le résultat ou la conséquence, dans ce cas étant ceux du « message déchiffré de Poe » .

And the second "à" in "à le lire", announces the way in which that result is achieved :

In this case, i'm guessing, because of the new clause "il se dise n'être pas plus feint (...)", to "à" is added "ce que + subjonctif" for grammatical purposes

[dapper jungle]

Ou bien, l'action lui-même de « rendre à la lettre (...) sa destination (le message déchiffré de Poe) »

Effectivement, je ne peux pas en être sûr puisque je ne suis qu'un intermédiaire de la langue, mais il semble logique que ces définitions s'appliquent pour cette phrase.

Like Pharma said before, it's likely a convoluted, old way of saying "en le lisant"

But then again, with a text this dense and cumbersome, an actual professor is your best bet, if there are some in this server that's the question

[tawdry latch]

i think as a result of Poe knowing the message (in une forme inversée), he(Poe) says to himself
This aligns with my interpretation

[dapper jungle]

More about "à ce que + subjonctif" https://www.btb.termiumplus.gc.ca/tpv2guides/guides/juridi/index-fra.html?lang=fra&lettr=indx_catlog_a&page=9YdtQTC51zBw.html#:~:text=La locution conjonctive à ce,résigner%2C se résoudre%2C tendre%2C (which, curiously, seems to contradict the grammar here)

(because it says it's obligatory to have it be accompanied by some verb, while here it functions on its own)

[tawdry latch]

Let me think about it for a moment

[tawdry latch]

It's very interesting that "à ce que" is referred to as a locution conjonctive.

[dapper jungle]

True

One in which "à" seems to be the only element which carries meaning

[tawdry latch]

thank you

[dapper jungle]

You're absolutely welcome

[north bane]

No, « à ce que » is followed by the subjunctive only when it's used by indirect verbs like « veiller à, tenir à, s'opposer à, etc »

that's why I said it's contextual

It also depends on what « à ce que » is, is it a conjunction or a preposition followed by a relative pronoun?

[dapper jungle]

What do you think it is here?

[north bane]

« Je tiens à ce que tu viennes. »
à ce que = conjunction
« Je pense à ce que tu as fait. »
à ce que = preposition à + relative pronoun ce que

Moreover, I disagree that « à ce que » on its own is a conjunction, it's only that because the preceding verb or preposition is indirect

[dapper jungle]

I have no notion of this distinction

[north bane]

like « jusqu'à, veiller à »

[dapper jungle]

Yeah true

So sometimes it's used a conjunction sometimes not

When might it be used as a conjunction ?

[north bane]

That's the thing, it depends on what comes before

Which is why I was originally so perplexed as to why the subjunctive is there

because there's no preposition/conjunction that would've triggered it

[dapper jungle]

I'm so lost tbh i dont even know exactly what a conjunction is

[north bane]

« à ce qu'il dise » makes no sense
« **jusqu'**à ce qu'il dise » makes sense

the subjunctive appears because of that « jusque »

[dapper jungle]

Ah

[north bane]

not because it is « à ce que »

[dapper jungle]

Ahh

But isn't there any other aspec that might've triggered the subjunctive ?

Like a hope

/wish

[north bane]

no

not in this case

[dapper jungle]

Then what do you make of it, enfin? Are the definitions i sent any applicable ?

[north bane]

no

so you're analysing things by its elements

but meaning is often derived from the ensemble

bien = good
que = that
good that = bien que ?
no, « bien que » is 'although'

[dapper jungle]

In this case then, how to arrive at meaning?

[dapper jungle]

Ça va de soi oui

[north bane]

to tell you the truth, I don't think you can unless you've spent a long time deciphering the philosophy too

plus the various literary constructions found within the text

[dapper jungle]

"à ce qu'à le lire" has deep philosophical roots then?

[north bane]

Not that construction in particular but why the author used it

[dapper jungle]

I mean Fink himself translates it as : so that in reading this message he realises...

In other words, so that + in reading

Which corresponde to the definitions i sent, or well, the use cases

[dapper jungle]

Yes that i agree with ofcourse

But i'm not trying to derive the philosophical weight of the phrase by dissecting grammatically

[north bane]

Yeah you have to find the construction and go from there

thing is, I didn't found the exact construction and you only saw its use cases

[dapper jungle]

As in what really constitutes as a proper standalone construction?

[north bane]

Otherwise, we can say « à ce qu'il paraisse » if we assume that « à ce que = afin que »

[north bane]

yeah

[dapper jungle]

I admit i failed to distinguish the concepts properly there, i thought it was just one and the same, whatever conjunction was to mean

[north bane]

Basically, I don't think that « à ce que » can be a standalone; it can only be a conjunction with something preceding it

« jusqu'à ce que » has « jusque »
« tenir à ce que » has « tenir »

even then I think this is kinda dodgy in terms of analysis

because it's not « jusque » + « à ce que », it's « jusqu'à » + « (ce) que »

[dapper jungle]

That is to say, "à" to which added "ce que" i'm assuming

[north bane]

it's « tenir à + (ce) que », not « tenir + à ce que »

[north bane]

yeah

[dapper jungle]

That's the basic thing we should all take into account yes

[dapper jungle]

Could "à" itself not function as its own "conjunction" (désolé si j'abuse le terme, je suis vraiment nul là) like the whole of " jusqu'à " and then add to that ce que + subjonctif ?

[north bane]

Not as far as I know

ngl at this point I’m tempted to tag les Tuteurs

[dapper jungle]

D- do it..-

[north bane]

<@&269900884857716737> So sorry to bother you all but what the hell is up with this sentence, we’ve all exhausted our collective French brain cells

[mighty grail]

Can we have a quick summary of what the questions are please ?

[north bane]

Basically, there's this sentence from Lacan's Écrits :
« A savoir le message de Poe déchiffré et revenant de lui, lecteur, à ce qu'à le lire, il se dise n'être pas plus feint que la vérité quand elle habite la fiction. »

Our point of contention is the overall meaning of this sentence, what « à ce qu'à le lire » means, and why there's a subjunctive « il se dise n'être … »

Paragraph for context (text in question in bold):

Ce serait simplement satisfaire à ce principe par nous promu : que dans le langage notre message nous vient de l'Autre, et pour l'énoncer jusqu'au bout : sous une forme inversée. (Et rappelons que ce principe s'est appliqué à sa propre énonciation, puisqu'à avoir été émis par nous, c'est d'un autre, interlocuteur éminent, qu'il a reçu sa meilleure frappe.)

Mais si l'homme se réduisait à n'être rien que le lieu de retour de notre discours, la question ne nous en reviendrait-elle pas d'à quoi bon le lui adresser ?

C'est bien la question que nous pose ce lecteur nouveau dont on nous fait argument pour rassembler ces écrits. Nous lui ménageons un palier dans notre style, en donnant à la Lettre volée le privilège d'ouvrir leur suite en dépit de la diachronie de celle-ci.
A ce lecteur de rendre à la lettre en question, au-delà de ceux qui firent un jour son adresse, cela même qu'il y trouvera pour mot de la fin : sa destination. A savoir le message de Poe déchiffré et revenant de lui, lecteur, à ce qu'à le lire, il se dise n'être pas plus feint que la vérité quand elle habite la fiction.

« La Lettre volée (The Purloined Letter) » is a work by Edgar Allan Poe

[tawdry latch]

If I may add, here are some examples as well (I won’t disturb you any further)

Et rappelons que ce principe s'est appliqué à sa propre énonciation, puisqu'à avoir été émis par nous, c'est d'un autre, interlocuteur éminent, qu'il a reçu sa meilleure frappe.

[mighty grail]

mmmmmmmh

[dapper jungle]

Although-- it must be noted that-- to arrive at the actual philosophical meaning of the sentence, one must already know a thing or two about what Lacan's points are.

Mais ça va clairement de soi hein

[mighty grail]

alors pour être très honnête je comprends rien à cette phrase

[dapper jungle]

Then, do you perhaps know of any psychoanalysis buffs amongst you in the server ?

By any chance

[mighty grail]

je peux que deviner que ça voudrait dire

Comme [le lecteur] sait que le message de Poe a été déchiffré et revenant de lui, le lecteur. Et comme en le lisant il se dise n'être pas plus feint [...]

Mais je pense que c'est juste grammaticallement faux

[dapper jungle]

Not just vielli ?

[mighty grail]

I don't think so

[dapper jungle]

What an interesting turn of events

[tawdry latch]

or gallicisme

[mighty grail]

I don't know a lot about Lacan apart from his pedantry so I wouldn't be surprise he just threw some words randomly

[noble gale]

À ce qu'il dit = according to him
À le lire = upon reading him

À ce qu'à le lire = upon reading him, he seems to say that...

[dapper jungle]

Wow, inversion ?

[noble gale]

Could be helpful to break it up as "à ce que, à le lire, il..."

[noble gale]

Hm no, where?

[dapper jungle]

Je dis encore, désolé si j'abuse des termes, mais "à le lire" is perhaps displaced ?

Put in front of "il se dise", or is that just where it's supposed to be

[noble gale]

This is normal pronoun placement, as in "je t'aime"

[dapper jungle]

Ohhh

[north bane]

Can the subjunctive just appear like that?

[noble gale]

Hm where?

[north bane]

ngl I didn’t know that « à ce que » can be construed as ‘upon’

[north bane]

il se dise

[dapper jungle]

Isn't upon "à le lire" ?

Here

Upon reading

It

[noble gale]

Yeah that subjunctive isn't really necessary imo

[north bane]

It’s just there for the luls ig

[north bane]

Oh yes that

I gotta consult because ‘upon’ to me is either gérondif or « dès »

[dapper jungle]

« à ce que, en le lisant, il se dise n'être pas plus feint que la vérité (...) » ce qui n'est pas plus feint que la vérité, c'est alors le « message déchiffré » ou « il » ?

[north bane]

Interesting…

[dapper jungle]

Ohh voilà

That cloud is cleared for me

I think

That was, i believe, indeed how Fink phrased it

[north bane]

tbh it answers « à le lire » but doesn’t answer « à ce que » to me

[dapper jungle]

Évidemment

[north bane]

Because « à ce que » sounds like it should be followed up a clause like « À ce qu’il parait » but instead it’s followed by a preposition + verb

[dapper jungle]

That's why i wondered if inversion was going on

if it wasn't perhaps switched or smth

[tawdry latch]

I'm in despair because this is happening on just the second page!!!

[north bane]

I considered that too but there was no where to switch it.
« À ce qu’il se dise n’être pas plus feint que la vérité à le lire quand elle habite la fiction »

« à ce que + subjonctif » and « à le lire » are my two points of contention

Because if it were like

« En le lisant, il se dit n’être pas plus feint que la vérité à lire quand elle habite la fiction » kinda makes sense to me.
‘By/upon reading [Poe’s deciphered message], it claims to not be any more false than the truth to be read when it inhabits fiction.’

but still

[ebon grove]

Perso, je le comprends un peu comme si c’était formulé « Il incombe au lecteur qu’en lisant le message de Poe [maintenant] déchiffré […] »

Mais c’est comme si dans ma tête, je ne sais pas pourquoi, il y a un « en lisant » qui est dans la supposition dans un certain futur au sein duquel le lecteur venait à lire ce message de Poe, il se dirait « je ne suis pas plus feint que la vérité quand la vérité habite la fiction »

Puis mon cerveau mettrait, lui aussi, le subjonctif à cause de ça, en fait

C’est ma compréhension de la phrase, personnellement
Mais c’est une formulation plutôt… peu commune, si je peux le dire ainsi…

Je n’ai aucune idée pourquoi elle est formulée comme ça non plus

[tawdry latch]

D'accord

[dapper jungle]

J'ai véritablement du mal à comprendre tout ça 😵

@north bane

[north bane]

Hmmm

Je suis pas encore convaincu malheureusement

[dapper jungle]

Je ne comprends même pas ce qui doit me convaincre

[tawdry latch]

I have understood very well how crazy this sentence is

[north bane]

J’ai l’impression qu’on a besoin d’un doctorat pour comprendre cet auteur

[dapper jungle]

Ça m'étonnerait pas du tout

Lacan il est un legend in the field, read an enormous amount of academic literature

[tawdry latch]

finally it is my last interpretation (, I do not fully understand the above discussion, however, within my own understanding, this interpretation is consistent)

As a result of Poe’s knowing Poe's message deciphered by the reader and coming back from the reader, Poe thinks the message is as true as the truth when the truth inhabits fiction, when Poe reads the message.

I don't think there are any fatal mistakes
now i understand fink's traslation (, so that) is nice

[north bane]

I think « il » refers to « message », not « Poe ».
'It falls on the reader that, upon reading Poe's deciphered message and coming back to that, the message claims to be as true as the truth when it inhabits fiction.'

[tawdry latch]

maybe, what you are thinking is that if 'il' were 'Poe', it should be 'il se dise que le message n'est (...)'.
That is exactly why I initially thought this sentence was inverted
for now, I have made the corrections

As a result of Poe’s knowing Poe's message deciphered by the reader and coming back from the reader, the message claims to be as true as the truth when the truth inhabits fiction, when Poe reads the message.

[tawdry latch]

I believe that your interpretation of "It falls on the reader that" depends on the interpretation of the previous sentence.

You translated the French text:

A ce lecteur de rendre à la lettre en question, au-delà de ceux qui firent un jour son adresse, cela même qu'il y trouvera pour mot de la fin : sa destination.

as:

To this reader giving back this letter in question, beyond those that one day made its address, even though there will be found the finishing word: its destination.

In this translation, "beyond those that one day made its address", you interpreted "those" as referring to the writer of the address on the letter.Therefore, you interpret that the message reaches the reader beyond Poe.

However, my interpretation differs. I understand "those" as referring to the readers, suggesting that the image is preparing a mailbox for them. In this context, "those" would represent the readers.
So,'ceux' is in the plural form. When an author writes a book, there is only one author, but the recipients are multiple.

In this context, I interpret "A ce lecteur" as "up to this reader" or "depending on this reader," which is also how Fink interprets it. Perhaps the expression "A ... de Infinitive" might carry such a meaning.(If you know anything about this, please let me know.)

My interpretation is supported by the following passage from "Écrits":

de la communication intersubjective : où l'émetteur, vous disons-nous, reçoit du récepteur son propre message sous une forme inversée. C'est ainsi que ce que veut dire « la lettre volée », voire « en souffrance », c'est qu'une lettre arrive toujours à destination.

Thus, the destination is the sender of the letter, which means Poe in this context.

I hope this helps unify our differing interpretations.