canny6ma_

[solemn robin]

Please be patient

Our volunteers look into many questions every day; sometimes it takes them a little while to answer.

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Make it descriptive, including relevant context, but also to the point. This way you improve your chances of getting a more relevant and specific answer.

[verbal ivy]

Do you want to keep the old French tenses or should I modernize it?

For my archaic answer I’m going to use "n'eût point été" because using"point" instead of "pas" adds an archaic touch

• « Pourquoi lui as-tu dit qu'il n'eût point été au cinéma avant que tu ne m'eusses sonné ? »
• « Je n'ai point nié qu'il n'y eût été avant que je ne t'eusse sonné. »

[sour axle]

The first part of the first sentence simply wouldn’t call for the subjunctive

In any case imperfect subjunctive just doesn’t get used anymore

And even in English the sentences are awkwardly convoluted

[verbal ivy]

Are you talking about the tense that I used after "avant que"?

[verbal ivy]

Ohh you said first part 😅
« Pourquoi lui as-tu dit qu'il n'eût point été au cinéma? » I was trying to read the moods and stay in the theme of archaic. In "Pourquoi lui as-tu dit qu'il n'eût point été au cinéma? I used the past anterior subjunctive because in my mind it expresses a hypothetical or doubtful action in the past. Iirc in older or more formal French, the subjunctive is often used after verbs like "dire" when there is an element of doubt, uncertainty, or negation involved, especially when the verb is used interrogatively. In this example my use of the subjunctive implies that the speaker is questioning the truth or reality of the statement ("qu'il n'eût point été au cinéma") it's as if they are questioning the veracity of what was said.
I guess in modern French this usage is quite rare but it’s possible to hear things like "Dis-tu que son histoire soit fausse ?" even though the indicative mood is more commonly used unless the context specifically requires the subjunctive to express doubt, uncertainty, or a non-realized action

I think OP purposely used old tenses so I kept in theme hence the "point" instead of "pas"

[burnt wren]

It’s not an issue of old tenses, rather that the subjunctive wouldn’t be used there in the first place

Besides if we’re going for archaic or literary terms, why stick with passé composé instead of passé simple ?

[verbal ivy]

I can’t find the source right now but I read somewhere that "dire que"+ subjunctive was very common in older French when the sentence was interrogative. It’s still possible now as long as like I said the question includes inversion too https://theperfectfrench.com/french-subjunctive/dire-que/#:~:text=Does dire que take the,is conjugated in the indicative. but it’s less common

[burnt wren]

Also in regards to where you do use the subjunctive, the « avant que » parts are wrong

The subordinate action happens after the principal action so it should be the imperfect subjunctive

though tbf I wouldn’t use ‘before / avant que’ anyway, I would’ve gone with ‘when / quand’

[burnt wren]

Fair enough

[verbal ivy]

Are you sure? I learned that the use of the subjunctive after "avant que" is obligatory, even when the subordinate action happens after the principal action

I can’t think of a case where avant que wouldn’t require a subjunctive, do you have examples of this?

[burnt wren]

Hence why I said the imperfect subjunctive

What you put was the pluperfect subjunctive which implies that the subordinate clause happened before the principal clause

Which is why I didn’t point out « Je n’ai point nié [or: je ne niai point] qu’il n’y eût été » because this action happened before the main action; he wasn’t there in the past of the main clause.

[verbal ivy]

Oh ok i see what you mean now, my thought process was that the pluperfect subjunctive “eût été” fits because it points to an action completed before the statement and the pluperfect subjunctive “t’eusse sonné” can also fit to make the sentence emphasize that both events were entirely past and complete before the speaker’s current frame of reference. It’s like if you translate "He had finished his work before we had a chance to help him" you can use the plus que parfait twice even though the first action mentioned happens before the other.
"Il avait fini son travail avant que nous n'ayons eu l'occasion de l'aider"
In this example the first line occurs first and then the potential action of helping occurs second but I’m indicating that both are in the deep past and happened before something else.

Going back to our example

• "Why did you tell him that he wouldn't have gone to the cinema until you rang me?"
• "I didn't deny he'd been before I rang you"
  I used pluperfect twice because the speaker is indicating that both of these events happened before what the other person said which is why their “dire” is in passé composé as you pointed out, that was the first of 4 past actions pretty much.

I’m not saying it was the best way to word it because in our time it’s not. I’m saying archaic French was weird and things like this weren’t choquant 🫣

sorry for talking too much but the tldr is that it’s just how the tenses flow together here.
"As-tu aidé (passé composé) Joshua à faire ses devoirs ?"
"Il avait terminé (plus que parfait) son travail avant que nous ayons pu (subj plus que parfait) l'aider"

[burnt wren]

The thing is that the subjunctive doesn't depend on the speaker's *current *frame of reference but on the reference of the main clause. My thinking was that the person talking was on the call hence my choosing the imperfect subjunctive but if the call happened before, the pluperfect works better. So we're both right, it just depends on where the calling part is situated: is it before or during the main clause?

[verbal ivy]

I don’t think the imparfait works here because the act of "sonner" is completed.
I can see the confusion because yes they are in a "call" (noun) but the "calling" (verb) stopped because the call was answered. I’m not still calling you while we’re speaking on the phone, that part stopped the second you answered. which is why the first question used the past participle of sonner, they already established that the act of calling was completed. I called you and you answered (the calling stopped) hence how we’re talking. In this example they’re both speaking about completed actions so nothing here was continuous. The only tenses available to us are perfect past tenses

[burnt wren]

I'm just going to take your word for it, I'm too tired for this