#williamylee

1 messages · Page 1 of 1 (latest)

modest dockBOT
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Please be patient

Our volunteers look into many questions every day; sometimes it takes them a little while to answer.

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Make it descriptive, including relevant context, but also to the point. This way you improve your chances of getting a more relevant and specific answer.

torn cedar
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French has no imperative for the 3rd person

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So we use the subjonctif instead

dire coral
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subjonctif with que*

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hors tournures archaïques

bleak osprey
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‘May the battle begin’ is the better translation, especially since it also triggers the subjunctive in English

crude quartz
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no it doesn’t

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also that wouldn’t make it a better translation

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begin in that sentence is the bare infinitive which is more clear when the order is “the battle may begin”

bleak osprey
# crude quartz no it doesn’t

English uses the modal 'May' to denote optative imperatives like, 'May the Lord bless you'. In a lot of expressions, the modal is dropped which is why you often just see the bare verb like '(May) God save the King!' or '(May) God's will be done!'

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I put 'may' as the better translation because 'let' is also used with the imperative, and the usage of the subjunctive in English might help reinforce the usage of the subjunctive in French

raw blade
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I'm finding differing sources on whether or not you can call the "be" there subjunctive, but I've never found a single source that declares without doubt exactly what the subjunctive is and isn't in English.

In romance langauges it's easy, there are clearly defined forms and triggers for subjunctive and those descend directly from Latin (more or less).

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English, however, isn't so clear and it seems to me that this is an example of grammarians looking at Latin and French and other romance languages and saying, "ah, well English should do that too"… and making up rules

bleak osprey
raw blade
crude quartz
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it's not the subjunctive cut and dry, because modal verbs always trigger the bare infinitive

raw blade
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There are different ways of analyzing grammar
So in your way you're right and in bertie's way, he's right

crude quartz
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it doesn't make any sense to call it the subjunctive, when the main verb is a modal verb which takes the bare infinitive

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you're just getting tripped up because the inversion in this usage is rather rare, so you don't realize at first it follows a very standard grammatical pattern

raw blade
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I'm not getting tripped up by anything