perfectplanet

[solemn elbow]

Please be patient

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[real umbra]

This is not correct

[viscid slate]

you're overthinking it

[real umbra]

ne and pas act as a single unit

[viscid slate]

ne pas is "not", not "not not"

that's a sentence and a half lol

[real umbra]

(Buffalo buffalo buffalo buffalo buffalo…)

[viscid slate]

if anything the negator is "pas" while "ne" is just there for the sake of it

[tranquil arch]

how

[viscid slate]

informally you can say j'ai pas peur and it means the same thing

[tranquil arch]

thats what im asking

[real umbra]

That’s just how French works

But you may be interested in the history too

[tranquil arch]

bruh 💀

[real umbra]

Originally, in Old French, the negator was just ne

But, as these things go, people found it a little weak

[tranquil arch]

so "I have no no fear"

[real umbra]

so they started adding more stuff to emphasise the negation

[viscid slate]

it's not a double negation

[real umbra]

pas originally meant ‘step’

[real umbra]

It started out with constructions like, ‘I will not take a step’

There were other words which were used at the time too

[tranquil arch]

wdym by negator

[real umbra]

like, ‘I don’t know a point’

But eventually ‘step’ became established

[upbeat dirge]

If you want to get fully literal, it's "I have not a step fear"
But that's not gonna be very useful to you

[real umbra]

as the word which now means ‘not’

[tranquil arch]

ok so whats the difference

[upbeat dirge]

Formality

[real umbra]

This is what I‘m trying to explain!

[viscid slate]

formality

[tranquil arch]

like if you hade to make an english translation to describe the formality or lack of

[real umbra]

English doesn’t really have an equivalent to this

[viscid slate]

right

[tranquil arch]

ok let me try

[upbeat dirge]

I am not afraid vs I'm not afraid, though it's a tad more informal

[real umbra]

But it’s like, in some dialects

you can say ‘I didn’t see nobody’

[viscid slate]

I don't think that's really the same thing

[real umbra]

to mean ‘I didn’t see anybody’

[real umbra]

where this is much more informal

But

[viscid slate]

contracting I am to I'm isn't exactly a matter of formality

[real umbra]

it’s not really the same thing

[upbeat dirge]

It is?

[viscid slate]

if it is I haven't really perceived it that way

[upbeat dirge]

You can't write "I'm" in an essay

[viscid slate]

huh 💀

our teachers had different standards then

[tranquil arch]

Im not afraid-non formal
I fear not-formal

[viscid slate]

did you also have to write it is instead of it's

[real umbra]

Well, that’s not quite equivalent

[upbeat dirge]

Yes, contractions are considered informal

[real umbra]

Because in Modern English no-one says ‘I fear not’

[viscid slate]

I fear not is more literary than formal

[real umbra]

Shakespearean, I’d say

[tranquil arch]

ok well i was trying to think of something formal

[real umbra]

it sounds contrived these days

[upbeat dirge]

Like I said, the closest English has is "I am not afraid" vs "I'm not afraid"

[tranquil arch]

this is what i was looking for so what word is step in this case >

[upbeat dirge]

Pas

[viscid slate]

I was never deducted points for using contractions when writing school papers in english so I didn't think that was the case

[upbeat dirge]

It doesn't function as "step" anymore though

[real umbra]

like I said here!

[viscid slate]

contractions are just how people talk, or so I thought

[upbeat dirge]

Talk, yes
Write formally, no

[tranquil arch]

so "je n'ai = i have not pas = step of peur = fear"

[real umbra]

in Old French, yes

[viscid slate]

bleh

[real umbra]

but not in Modern French

[viscid slate]

talking about formality in english is beside the point anyway

[real umbra]

in Modern French:

• je = ‘I’
• (ne) … pas = ‘not’
• ai = ‘have’
• peur = ‘fear’

[tranquil arch]

im obsessive with detail so i need to know if I were acting as a translator for someone Obviously i would paraphrase im just trying to gain an understanding vs rote memorization of messages

[upbeat dirge]

it's relevant as it's almost the exact same difference in formality

[real umbra]

trying to gain an understanding vs rote memorization of messages
Yeah, that’s just going to leave you hopelessly confused

French does not work the same way as English

Trying to find English correspondences for everything will not help you

because there aren’t any, necessarily

[viscid slate]

comparing it to french sure but I mean like our discussion on whether it's okay to write for example an essay using it's instead of it is

[tranquil arch]

ok so to put it simply in modern french (ne or n'ai) and pa merge together in meaning as one

[real umbra]

You need to learn French on its own terms, not as a cipher of English!

[viscid slate]

it's tangential and doesn't help the question

[real umbra]

Yes, exactly

[viscid slate]

so I'll stop

[upbeat dirge]

"J'ai pas" is slightly more informal than "I'm not"

[tranquil arch]

yeah this is true

[tranquil arch]

still having the literal old french helps me understand this in contrast to that

[upbeat dirge]

"I am not" and "Je n'ai pas" are essentially equivalent levels of formality, though

[real umbra]

Sure, which is why I went through the historical evolution

[upbeat dirge]

"I am not" perhaps a tad more formal

[real umbra]

Another thing to consider is

doing the negation in two parts lets you have more than one negation construction

So, for instance, you also get (ne) … rien

which means ‘nothing’

or (ne) … jamais which means ‘never’

actually, wait, can ne be omitted in that last one, now that I think of it?

[upbeat dirge]

It's like how English has some merged negators
Not + ever (ne + jamais) = never
No + thing (ne + rien) = nothing

[upbeat dirge]

Ne can always be ommitted

[tranquil arch]

so n'ai is broken into n' = dont/not ai =have

[real umbra]

Well

[upbeat dirge]

Yea

Basically

[real umbra]

it’s not helpful to think of ne as ‘not’, I think

because ‘not’ is really « pas »

[upbeat dirge]

Eh

[tranquil arch]

ok well you wrote it as that here

[real umbra]

you can get rid of « ne », but you can’t get rid of « pas » without changing the meaning

[real umbra]

No I didn’t

I said that ne … pas is ‘not’

[upbeat dirge]

Technically you can

Tho it's old

[real umbra]

yeah, yeah

it’s rare

[viscid slate]

you have to see ne-pas as one piece that can be split into two

[upbeat dirge]

There's a few verbs where it's still normal tho

[upbeat dirge]

Basically yea

[tranquil arch]

so is it better to take english translations with a grain of salt and just go straight for feeling the message of whats said

[viscid slate]

I mean generally that's true for any language

[upbeat dirge]

Yeah

[viscid slate]

they all work in their own way and using english as a crutch will ultimately hinder you in the long run

you ideally want to rely on a second language as little as possible to learn your target language

[upbeat dirge]

Translations are occasionally helpful but languages have SO many concepts that cannot truly be translated

That's the beauty of learning a language

[tranquil arch]

ok im just trying to get my foot in the door with comprehension im learning song lyrics and started to try and map the translation to the french on a closer level like with n'ai =don't have

[tranquil arch]

so trve

you know what I guess it just better to identify and link specific distinct vocab instead of overthinking the grammar like

peur = fear easy

je = i

etc

[upbeat dirge]

If you're lost it can sometimes be helpful to compare, you just have to be careful to not try to force a translation when there isn't one

[real umbra]

Even this can trip you up a bit, if you don’t keep in mind that it’s used in slightly different ways to English

[tranquil arch]

ok ill just remember to take it as a grain of salt and just a rough reference going forward during comprehension

[uncut sentinel]

Throughout the convo I don’t think I saw the actual structure be asked. Basically, where English usually plays with adjectives only (I am scared, I am hungry, etc), French can play with adjectives and nouns which is the case here. For adjectives the structure is the same, être + adjective, but for nouns, it’s avoir + noun (without article).

Some examples for you:
‘I am scared’

• J’ai peur (la peur = fear)
• Je suis effrayé.e (effrayé = scared)

‘I am hungry’

• J’ai faim (la faim = hunger)
• Je suis affamé.e (affamé = famished)

‘I am thirsty’

• J’ai soif (la soif = thirst)
• Je suis assoiffé.e (assoiffé = parched)

‘I am sleepy’

• J’ai sommeil (le sommeil = sleep)
• Je suis somnolent.e (somnolent = drowsy)

just in case you meet similar structures

[tranquil arch]

when it comes to learning songs is it best just to read the complete translation while listening to the song and forget about the specific translation of words ?

[uncut sentinel]

Yes, go for meaning and not literal word-for-word

You’re going to torture yourself by going word for word

[tranquil arch]

ok thanks

i just realized

[uncut sentinel]

Just as an example, the recent past in English is rendered by inserting the adverb ‘just’ after the past tense.

‘I entered’ vs ‘I just entered’
‘I’ve realised’ vs ‘I just realised’

This construction doesn’t work in French where it instead uses « venir de ». So, ‘I just entered’ is not « Je suis juste entré » but « Je viens d’entrer »; ‘I’ve just realised’ is likewise « Je viens de me rendre compte »