#zatastral

1 messages · Page 1 of 1 (latest)

oblique pikeBOT
#
Please be patient

Our volunteers look into many questions every day; sometimes it takes them a little while to answer.

Pro tip: you can rename the thread title with `.tr <thread name>`

Make it descriptive, including relevant context, but also to the point. This way you improve your chances of getting a more relevant and specific answer.

foggy grotto
#

Avaient garé, this is probably the main verb so is this l'indicatif ?

neon owl
#

tense is plus-que-parfait, which belongs to infinitive mood

#

it's a composed tense also

foggy grotto
neon owl
#

INDICATIF

#

i meant indicatif

foggy grotto
#

Oh Okay no worries

neon owl
#

"sans les avoir déchargés" however is infinitif passé

foggy grotto
#

Right ?

neon owl
#

infinitif présent would be "sans les décharger", but the action takes place in the past

foggy grotto
#

Then how can a sentence be in participé mood

#

Also How can i declare that this phrase is in infinitive mood. CAN i say cette phrase est l'indicatif.

#

Or is there any other ways to say that

vagrant cypress
foggy grotto
#

It cant be one ?

vagrant cypress
#

Verbs are split into finite and nonfinite parts or basically conjugated and non-conjugated. Something like « tu pars / tu partirais / que tu partes / pars ! » is considered a finite form as they're conjugated according to mood – here we see them in the indicative, conditional, subjunctive, and imperative – tense, person, number, etc., which depend on the language

#

Participles, infinitives, etc., they're part of the nonfinite form since they're not conjugated.

#

so the mood of the sentence is indicative based off of « les chauffeurs avaient garé » because participles and nonfinite forms can't start a new clause

foggy grotto
#

Quand le verbe ne peut jamais avoir de complément d'objet direct,

vagrant cypress
#

Je veux partir -> Still one clause with the main subject/predicate being the subject pronoun « je » with the verb « vouloir » conjugated in the first person singular, indicative present, plus the infinitive verb « partir » which is unconjugated because you only have one conjugated verb per clause.

Je veux que tu partes -> Two clauses with the main clause being « je veux » with the subordinate « tu pars ».

foggy grotto
vagrant cypress
foggy grotto
#

Pouvoir conjugated in présent

#

But there is also an infinitive

vagrant cypress
vagrant cypress
#

« ils avaient garé » is in the indicative mood, third person plural, pluperfect tense

foggy grotto
vagrant cypress
#

Again, infinitives are part of the nonfinite and so they can't have moods since moods are part of conjugation.

foggy grotto
#

Im not talking about the phrase just the ppassé itself

#

Then why its name is "mood"?

foggy grotto
vagrant cypress
vagrant cypress
#

Let me look it up how French does it because what I just told you is English

foggy grotto
#

So in a sentence like, après avoir fini ses devoirs, il est allé au cinéma. There IS "avoir fini", this is not conjugated but it is considered as a infinitive. So can we say that it is conjugated in the l'infintive

vagrant cypress
#

Ah I see, French considers 'finite' as 'personal modes' and 'nonfinite' as 'impersonal modes'

foggy grotto
#

So what i was saying is right or ?

#

See ?

vagrant cypress
#

It doesn't really change anything IMO, the main onus is still on the main clause

foggy grotto
#

So according to the link above, regardant is in the participe mood

#

Also regardé

vagrant cypress
#

I wonder if French does this because it assumes nonfinite verb forms start a subordinate clause

#

Sentences are formed from multiple clauses so that's what should be worried about

foggy grotto
#

So a sentence's mood never can be in participe mood

vagrant cypress
#

Like « je veux que tu partes » is a sentence made of two clauses, the first is the main clause in the indicative and the second is the subordinate clause in the subjunctive

foggy grotto
#

But the participles itselfs are considered as they are in a mood

vagrant cypress
#

I can't really say if a sentence is X mood since sentences are a mix

foggy grotto
#

So we have to seperate them right ?

#

Like you did

#

Après avoir fini ses devoirs, il est allé au cinéma.

First one is in infinitive mood and second one is l'indicatif

vagrant cypress
#

I mean if I had to come down to an answer, I would probably say the moods are indicative for « les chaffeurs avaient garé les camions » and infinitive for « sans les avoir déchargés » but I am quite unsettled with separating « sans les avoir déchargés »

#

French has a tendency to start a new clause with the connector « que » so if we're separating clauses like that example above, I'm kinda on the fence about it

foggy grotto
#

If i were in exam, i would seperate them like you did as indicatif and infinitive

#

But idk is it true

vagrant cypress
#

What does your professor teach in this regard?

#

What does your curriculum say about this?

foggy grotto
#

Do we have the knowledge to tell a phrase is in which mood

#

Circonstancielle de temps, lieu etc

vagrant cypress
#

I just look at the conjugated verb

#

and if the conjugated verb is part of a subordinate clause, I look at the main clause

foggy grotto
#

Can i ask you why did you broke down the subjunctive mood sentence?shouldnt it be as "this phrase is in the subjunctive mood"

#

We dont have to take the first and second clause as différent partd

vagrant cypress
#

because the main clause is in the indicative

foggy grotto
#

Parts*

#

So-

First clause indicatif

Second infinitive

The whole phrase is in the subjunctive mood

vagrant cypress
#

huh???

#

no it's not

foggy grotto
vagrant cypress
#

yeah because « que tu partes » is a subjunctive

foggy grotto
#

Je veux que tu partes.

vagrant cypress
#

first clause is indicative
second clause is subjunctive
whole phrase? no idea but if I had to come down on an answer, I would say indicative following the main clause

foggy grotto
#

Nah man

#

This sentence is in the subjunctive mood

vagrant cypress
#

subordinate clauses are, well, subordinate; they can't exist outside of context

vagrant cypress
foggy grotto
vagrant cypress
#

yeah I don't know

foggy grotto
#

should i have to open à New discussion about this

vagrant cypress
#

I'd wait for someone versed in linguistics

foggy grotto
#

You kinda made me mix up my knowledge a little bit so if we dont get help, im going to forget what i know 😭😭

#

Do you want me to mention you in the new

#

Discussion

vagrant cypress
#

Je suis extrêmement désolé si je vous dérange, mais on a besoin de réponses mdr <@&269900884857716737>

foggy grotto
#

Thanks for your replies and for your time too

#

I think they cannot read the whole thing, would you explain it in 1 sentence or i can do it too

vagrant cypress
#

Pour les tutrices et tuteurs qui n'arrivent pas à lire le fil entier, on cherche à déterminer le mode de ces deux phrases :
« Les chauffeurs avaient garé les camions sans les avoir déchargés »
« Je veux que tu partes »

neon owl
#

Il peut y avoir plus d'un mode par phrase

#

non ?

vagrant cypress
#

C'est exactement ce que j'ai dit

cedar quiver
#

afaia a sentence doesn't a mood, it's just each individual verb

vagrant cypress
#

Une phrase est composée de différentes propositions et chacune a son propre mode, donc on ne peut pas dire si une phrase entière peut se considérer comme l'un ou l'autre

neon owl
#

oui

unborn iron
foggy grotto
#

Do we have to differentiate like "je veux que tu partes"

First clause je veux = indicatif

Second clause tu partes = subjonctif

Or

The entire phrase is in the subjunctive mood

neon owl
#

oops we suddenly started to speak french lol

foggy grotto
vagrant cypress
#

En plus, je ne sais pas ce que veulent dire les ressources grammaticales en disant que le participe est un mode. Je considérerais cette phrase-là, « Les chauffeurs avaient garé les camions sans les avoir déchargés », comme n'ayant qu'un mode, l'indicatif, mais apparemment ce n'est pas le cas en français ?

#

English ain't like this lol

unborn iron
neon owl
#

@foggy grotto what we were saying is that each verb has its own mood, and we often cannot say that a whole sentence is x or y mood

foggy grotto
#

So i cannot say that a entire phrase is in one mood, how much verb does a sentence have, that much "propositions "
And mood we have ?

unborn iron
#

Sois prudent, je t'aime.

I guess in this case you can combine two within a sentence but that's because it's composed of two independent clauses.

So it seems to be splitting hairs to say that you can't say the whole thing is in a certain mood.

foggy grotto
foggy grotto
#

Sois prudent impératif and je t'aime indicatif

unborn iron
#

il faudrait que tu partes

^ main sentence = conditionnel
^^ tu partes (dependent clause) = subjunctive

neon owl
foggy grotto
neon owl
#

no conditionnel is a mood on its own lol

foggy grotto
foggy grotto
#

So it is l'indicatif

unborn iron
unborn iron
neon owl
#

you are talking about the main verbs only here

foggy grotto
neon owl
#

you cannot say that your whole first sentence is present de l'indicatif

#

yes

unborn iron
# neon owl you cannot say that your whole first sentence is present de l'indicatif

Well, obviously there is all the subjunctive dependent clauses

Saying the sentence is in indicatif is equivalent to saying that the main clause is in indicatif.

I observe that he has started washing the car.

Sarah cleaned the car because a bird had shat on it yesterday.

^^ in a compound sentence there can be multiple dependent clauses. but saying that the sentence is in present/past is a proxy for describing the main clause

foggy grotto
#

Oh i see

foggy grotto
#

Did i get it right ?

unborn iron
#

how does your teacher phrase the exam questions?

#

As long as you know how to use the right verbs then that's the most important

neon owl
#

i don't really agree

#

if you declare a single mood for a sentence, for me it just means that all verbs have this mood

#

Je t'aime mais tu me détestes => both verbs are indicatif, so you could say the sentence is indicatif

vagrant cypress
#

Same

#

This is why I asked for what the curriculum said because it could shed a light

unborn iron
#

I think the important thing to know is that each clause can have its own mood/tense which btw is what I said as well

vagrant cypress
#

My problem here is the existence of the impersonal moods: participles, infinitives, etc

#

because while I am comfortable saying in English that the sentence, 'I'm walking in without having a gun' is an indicative one since there's only one clause and so one mood, I'm uncomfortable knowing that the participe mood exists

unborn iron
vagrant cypress
#

so my statement still works

unborn iron
vagrant cypress
#

point is, I wouldn't consider that bit at the end as having any mood info

unborn iron
# vagrant cypress *point is*, I wouldn't consider that bit at the end as having any mood info

OK example in French:

  • Fais tes devoirs après avoir bu ton café

  • Fais tes devoirs en restant dans ta chambre

  • Après avoir bu ton café, il faut que tu fasses tes devoirs

  • Il faut que tu fasses tes devoirs car tu vas aller au cinéma ce soir.

I don't really know what we're arguing about anymore tbh but the Reddit link goes into some detail, are as you said impersonal, headless (well non-finite), can easily be detached / reattached to sentences