#translation and sentence structure help

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translation and sentence structure help

low halo
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  1. Check your conjugation and pronoun placement
  2. This is "I have never been" not "I was never", check your tense

Pendant [noun] / pendant que [clause]
Peut-être [noun] / peut-être que [clause]
Check your conjugation

feral girder
atomic zephyr
atomic zephyr
feral girder
atomic zephyr
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Ah, how'd you word it? I thought "So that" was pour que

atomic zephyr
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grammaire est trop compliqué mdr

feral girder
atomic zephyr
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gotcha

feral girder
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To be fair, the phrase in English sounds a bit off to me? The main clause (in bold) 'so that whilst I'm here fighting to improve the world, maybe those people who do not see themselves reflected in politics can see it in me' is suspicious to me

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I'm a lot more inclined to instead write, 'so that those people may see it in me'

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It works better in the French too

atomic zephyr
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Yeah I get that, the sentence seems alright to me but your improvement is better

low halo
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But I think the subjunctive thing was me being tired

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Or mixing it with that idk

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Fixed

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I think the sentence is just kinda all over the place so my brain held onto the pour que subjunctive in my head

feral girder
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Aight

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Anyway, OP, try giving the translation another go and we'll take a look again

atomic zephyr
atomic zephyr
feral girder
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'So that whilst I'm here fighting to improve the world, those people who do not see themselves reflected in politics may see it in me'

atomic zephyr
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beginning to think I don't understand english grammar either lol

feral girder
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(just removed the 'maybe' and changed 'can' to 'may')

atomic zephyr
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ohhhhhhh

feral girder
atomic zephyr
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Oh I thought tagging would be too demanding hehe but yeah je peux en faire :)

feral girder
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(le not en)

low halo
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Idk it could be some of the translation

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The first 2 should be fairly easy

feral girder
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Yeah, 3rd one is the biggest one for sure

atomic zephyr
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Sentence 1 rewrite: La politique nous a arrivé, nous ne nous avions engagé pas?

atomic zephyr
# feral girder (le not en)

damn - I keep trying to look smart by trying to use y/en pronouns only for it to blow up in my face almost each time ahaha

low halo
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Pronoun placement better on the first part but wrong auxiliary

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Idk what happened to the second half

atomic zephyr
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nous sommes arrivé

low halo
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You didn't write avons so why sommes

atomic zephyr
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dr mrs vandertramp

low halo
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The conjugation

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You got the right auxiliary now

feral girder
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Also, the original English has, 'involved in it' but that didn't appear in the translation, where did that go?

low halo
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But you changed the conjugation

atomic zephyr
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So, 1. La politique nous a arrivé - that first bit is now correct?

low halo
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No

atomic zephyr
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slams head on table

low halo
feral girder
low halo
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This isn't pronominal

feral girder
low halo
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Unless you mean the second part

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Ok

atomic zephyr
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La politique nous a arrivait?

low halo
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No

atomic zephyr
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this is a disaster

low halo
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Auxiliary = avoir/être in a compound tense

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Here one sec

atomic zephyr
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May have been learning French for 14 years, still shit at it 😩

feral girder
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Okay, so you know how in English, the present perfect tense has two components? I have walked? It works in French too, j'ai marché. The main verb here is the auxiliary verb; in English that's always 'to have' but in French that can be « avoir/être ». The second part is the past participle which is the actual verb. With me so far?

atomic zephyr
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yep, with you

feral girder
atomic zephyr
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la politique?

feral girder
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So what would be the correct conjugation?

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Conjugate être…

atomic zephyr
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la politique nous est arrivés?

feral girder
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One more bit, in French, the past participle agrees with the subject if it's être

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Il est arrivé vs Elle est arrivée

atomic zephyr
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oH

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La politique nous est arrivée?

feral girder
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Yay!!!

atomic zephyr
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eyyyyyy

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thought it was arrivés because nous is plural

feral girder
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Alright, second part now

atomic zephyr
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so to lock it in "Politics didn't happen to us" translates to "La politique nous est arrivée"?

feral girder
low halo
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Rip

feral girder
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If I'm talking with a girl, « Je t'ai rencontrée », rencontré agrees with the pronoun « te » because rencontrer takes a direct object but in « Je t'ai parlé », parlé does NOT agree with the pronoun « te » because parler takes an indirect object

atomic zephyr
# low halo

Hang on, la politique nous sommes arivée?

low halo
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No

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It's surrounded in red

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I wrote tense but eh

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Conjugation

feral girder
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J'ai rencontré une fille -> Je t'ai rencontrée
J'ai parlé à une fille -> Je t'ai parlé
(une fille = a girl I'm talking to)

feral girder
atomic zephyr
low halo
atomic zephyr
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oh mixed up my sentences sorry

low halo
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Alright

feral girder
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Second part now?

atomic zephyr
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so to lock it in, "Politics happened to us" is "La politique nous est arrivée"?

feral girder
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Yes

low halo
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Yes

atomic zephyr
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we got there 😭

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I'm so sorry you two

feral girder
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It's fine

low halo
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Lol it's ok

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It's just a matter of getting your brain used to concepts

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It's a juggling act for a while

atomic zephyr
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We didn't get involve in it (politics) -> Nous ne nous l'engagions pas?

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using imparfait here

feral girder
atomic zephyr
low halo
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Note the "dans" which introduces the object

atomic zephyr
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can't the l' replace the dans?

low halo
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Nope

atomic zephyr
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damn

low halo
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It's not a direct object

atomic zephyr
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nous ne nous l'engagions pas dedans?

low halo
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"nous" is the direct object here afaik

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You still have the l' but dedans is good!

atomic zephyr
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Eyyyyy!

feral girder
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Alright, so you know what is wrong with using « l' » there. Now, the imparfait describes an event that happened repeatedly or actions that are fully in the past like you used to do it but now you don't; the passé composé a singular action with a clear before/after condition. For example, in the phrase « Je mangeais des pommes », it means that I used to eat apples regularly but I no longer do it; in the phrase « J'ai mangé des pommes », it means I ate some apples in one sitting and there's a clear before/after condition: before/after eating the apple. So, does « s'engager » here mean something you used to do habitually in the past and now no longer do, or is it a singular action in the past?

atomic zephyr
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It's a bit tricky "we didn't engage in it" for me is like a general past tense

low halo
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Yeah

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As opposed to "we weren't engaging in it"

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Which would be imparfait

atomic zephyr
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given the full sentence is "politics happened to us, we didn't engage in it" the second bit is still past tense

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but because it's not a singular event I went for imparfait

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...might be plusqueparfait?

feral girder
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Plus-que-parfait describes a tense before the passé composé

low halo
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Could be

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Depends what exactly you're going for

atomic zephyr
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hang on going back to the first bit wouldn't "politics happened to us" be imparfait lol

feral girder
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PQP would imply that you didn't get into politics and then politics happened

low halo
atomic zephyr
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I just default all non-singular events in the past to imparfait

feral girder
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Another key thing is that imparfait usually carries a sense of duration whereas passé composé is more to single actions that have close to no duration

atomic zephyr
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so because politics happening isn't a singular event, imparfait

low halo
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It doesn't always line up 100% so it's still good to learn the rules but usually imparfait is "was x-ing" while passé composé is usually "-ed"

low halo
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Which it isn't here

atomic zephyr
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hence me getting confused re if it's imparfait

low halo
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I'd simplify imparfait down to background information

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It's still hard to define that but it should help in cases like this

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Most of it is just a matter of doing it enough to get a "feel" for it tho

atomic zephyr
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Is "we didn't engage in it" passé composé?

low halo
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Yep

atomic zephyr
atomic zephyr
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because politics happening to someone throughout life is an ongoing event in the past

low halo
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Maybe a good thing to keep in mind is that if you're emphasizing that something never happened, it's almost always passé composé

feral girder
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It really depends on the context

low halo
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Because it's not an unknown amount of time, it has always been true

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Like

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True it never happened

atomic zephyr
low halo
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same for if something has always been true

atomic zephyr
low halo
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In general yeah

atomic zephyr
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interesting!

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So, for the second part of the sentence: We didn't get involved in it -> Nous ne nous avons pas engagé dedans?

feral girder
atomic zephyr
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damn, yeah

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forgot

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wait what's the diff b/w reflexif and pronominal

feral girder
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Pronominal verbs is a larger group

atomic zephyr
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gotcha

feral girder
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Reflexive verbs mean that the subject is acting on itself but not all verbs with a reflexive pronoun are like that

atomic zephyr
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ohhhhh makes sense

feral girder
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Reciprocal ones, for example, act on different people: « Nous nous téléphonons » means that I call you and you call me, not that I call myself and you call yourself

atomic zephyr
feral girder
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Nous is plural

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though I don't know if nous is a feminine or masculine/mixed group

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but yes it's plural because it's a direct object

atomic zephyr
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oh got confused because in the previous bit of the sentence the conjugated verb also wasn't plural

atomic zephyr
feral girder
atomic zephyr
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:(

feral girder
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because that's feminine singular

atomic zephyr
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surely the nous in the middle makes it pronominal for the first one

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anyway, nous ne nous sommes pas engagés dedans?

feral girder
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No?

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the subject was « la politique »

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the object was « nous »

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the two aren't the same thing

feral girder
atomic zephyr
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Anyway I am v tired, we'll have to come back to this later ahahaha

feral girder
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Those are just object pronouns pleurehalal

atomic zephyr
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PLEUREHALAL

atomic zephyr
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  1. La politique nous est arrivé, nous ne nous sommes pas engagés dedans ✅
  2. Je n'ai jamais été quelqu'un comme ça (✅ pending albatros' thoughts to double check)
  3. Pour que pendant que je suis ici en me battant pour améliorer le monde, peut-être ces gens-ci qui ne vue pas eux-mêmes réfléchi en politique peuvent le voir en moi (?)

@feral girder @low halo

feral girder
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Number three is… hmm maybe not so much?

atomic zephyr
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ahahaha

feral girder
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so « peut-être » can come in two forms, the adverb after the verb « J'ai peut-être mal écrit ce paragraphe… (I maybe miswrote this paragraph…) » and adverb starting the clause « Peut-être que j'ai mal écrit ce paragraphe … (Maybe I miswrote this paragraph…) »

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in English the distinction isn't made apparent but in French it does and in my opinion it's better that the translation use the regular adverb

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because if you used the starting-a-clause one, « pour que » would have no clause here

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Like we can break it down into : « Pour que [pendant que je suis ici en me battant pour améliorer le monde,] peut-être que ces gens-ci [que ne vue pas eux-mêmes réfléchi en politique] peuvent le voir en moi » and if we delete those subordinate clauses we'd get the main clause : « Pour que peut-être que ces gens-ci peuvent le voir en moi » which doesn't make sense.

feral girder
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I'm doing the same thing I did last night but just with your French translation

atomic zephyr
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so replace peut-etre que with just peut-etre?

feral girder
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If you want to keep it, yes, and put it next to the conjugated verb

atomic zephyr
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just edited it

feral girder
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before it applies to the main clause 'so that [...] maybe those people [...] can see it in me.'

atomic zephyr
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I am confused

feral girder
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You have the main clause here : 'So that maybe those people can see it in me.'
and a subordinating clause here: 'who do not see themselves reflected in politics'
With your new translation, you just changed the meaning from: 'So that maybe those people – who do not see themselves reflected in politics – can see it in me' to 'So that those people – who maybe do not see themselves reflected in politics – can see it in me'

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I mean the difference is minor but it's still good training to watch for your adverb placement

atomic zephyr
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No you're completely right, have changed it back

feral girder
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Okay, adverbs are placed after the conjugated verb

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so… put « peut-être » there

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notice where I put « peut-être » in my example

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You know what maybe I should list all the faults instead of going one-by-one just so we don't get bogged down

atomic zephyr
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yep sounds good

feral girder
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Original sentence for context just so I won't have to scroll up every time: [so that whilst I'm here fighting to improve the world, maybe those people who do not see themselves reflected in politics can see it in me]

« Pour que pendant que je suis ici en me battant (1) pour améliorer le monde, peut-être (2) ces gens-ci (3) qui ne vue (4a) pas eux-mêmes réfléchi en politique (4b) peuvent (5) le voir en moi. »
(underlined are the subordinate clauses)
(1) So the gerundive « en me battant (while fighting) » seems superfluous to me seeing as « pendant que » already exists. Try and reword this because the translation of this subordinate clause is like: 'While I'm here while fighting in order to improve the world…'
(2) The adverb « peut-être » is placed either after the conjugated verb or at the end of a phrase; if placed at the start it should have « que » or inversion as it starts a clause.
(3) Unless the distinction is important (i.e. I'm talking to these guys and not those guys), it's not important to put distance here.
(4) First off, « voir » here is just not conjugated properly (4a) but second off, (4a) and (4b) are linked in that the object is looking at the subject, i.e. themselves. Why not use a pronominal verb here? Also, try looking at WordReference because there is a better verb than « voir lui-même réfléchi » for 'see each other reflected'.
(5) « pour que » triggers the subjunctive, and this verb is in the indicative.

atomic zephyr
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oh wow okay

atomic zephyr
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1st edited attempt:
Pour que pendant que je suis ici pour me bats pour améliorer le monde, peut-être que ces gens qui ne se voit pas en politique puissent le voir en moi.

feral girder
# atomic zephyr 1st edited attempt: Pour que pendant que je suis ici pour me bats pour améliore...

Okay, let's go per point:
(1) Solved but it shouldn't be conjugated in « pour me bats » because it's under a preposition. Do you say, 'he is here in order to fights' or 'he is here in order to fight' ? Same rule in French; you don't conjugate because there is no subject.
(2) Again, you're just coming back to using « peut-être que » when I said that it's not appropriate.
(3) Solved.
(4) Alright, I can see that, but « voit » isn't the right conjugation. In French, the conjugation takes after the subject so « c'est moi qui suis, c'est vous qui êtes », etc. Notice the error now? Hint: ||ces gens isn't singular||
(5) Solved.

atomic zephyr
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Imma be honest I have legit no idea what to do with the peut-etre

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2nd edited attempt:
Pour que pendant que je suis ici pour me battre pour améliorer le monde, peut-être que ces gens qui ne se voient pas en politique puissent le voir en moi.

feral girder
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Looks good to me!

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In all honesty, I prefer this one because « peut-être » to me is superfluous.

atomic zephyr
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hmmm

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how I see it is that the "maybe" is important because signifies both uncertainty and aspiration

image.png
feral girder
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« Pour que pendant que je suis ici pour me battre pour améliorer le monde, ces gens qui ne se voient pas en politique puissent peut-être le voir en moi. »
'So that, while I am here to fight in order to improve the world, these people, who do not see each other in politics, may maybe see it in me.'

feral girder
atomic zephyr
feral girder
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Why would you want that though?

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You can't always translate things exactly

atomic zephyr
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the meaning changes!

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anyway, thank you :)

feral girder
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uncertainty

atomic zephyr
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hmm

feral girder
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By the way, if it were me, I would do away with exact translations and even reword the English here in case you're wondering what I would've done it. Translations cannot be one-to-one thing.

atomic zephyr
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Yeah fair enough, but looking for the exact translation and going almost word-by-word is the only real way I know how to translate

feral girder