laddo_

[shell swift]

Please be patient

Our volunteers look into many questions every day; sometimes it takes them a little while to answer.

Pro tip: you can rename the thread title with `.tr <thread name>`

Make it descriptive, including relevant context, but also to the point. This way you improve your chances of getting a more relevant and specific answer.

[stiff sandal]

No, usually either "il" or whatever pronoun goes with the noun used to describe them (personne => elle, quelqu'un => il, victime => elle, as a few examples)

[graceful ice]

Ohh okay, so it defaults to "il", unless you describe them with a feminine noun?

[stiff sandal]

Basically yeah

You might occasionally see écriture inclusive, but it's not incredibly widespread and has some challenges and controversies associated with it

[graceful ice]

Great, cheers!

[oak jasper]

There’s iel but it’s really nonstandard, and imo it’s not L2’s business to try to reform the French language in this case

I can tolerate a native using iel but when it’s a L2 I don’t really like it

Reforming a language that’s not yours, with your L2 limited comprehension of our culture

[gritty temple]

@graceful ice 'iel' is a neopronoun (not pre-existed in french, pushed by the french lgbtqia+ community) that is often used as the gender neutral. but sadly, not many use it (often only the queer community).

the default is il, like in english before they decided to use singular they/them/theirs/themself. we can see this in saying "he must xyz" the same in french "il faut XYZ"

language is evolving, and that involves reforming how we speak of how we describe people. le petit robert added this as a word in their dictionary two years ago.

the queer community also pushed iel est belleau as a portmanteau of both beau and belle

[graceful ice]

??? I'm not trying to reform anything, just wondering what the usage is for a writing exercise I'm doing.

[graceful ice]

Hmm, interesting read, thanks!

[gritty temple]

https://www.madmoizelle.com/le-pronom-iel-arrive-dans-le-petit-robert-et-les-rageux-ragent-1213880

[stiff sandal]

Like I said, écriture inclusive is a tricky subject and quite different to its English counterpart. English singular "they" has existed since before singular "you". "iel" is comparatively incredibly new, and has to challenge a very rigid gendering system, unlike English.

"Il" is the default neutral as the masculine and neutral in latin merged due to their similarities. "iel" is gaining a decent bit of traction, but is an artifical addition to the language that will take time to integrate, unlike singular "they" which has been around for centuries. The main issue is that most gender agreements cannot be easily adjusted to account for this, especially not in everyday speech. Most of the suggestions I have seen have a very similar feeling to writing "he/she" every single time there is ambiguity, which becomes cumbersome and does not necessarily break the binary, in my eyes. That being said, I don't really have many better solutions. People are trying; some thing will work, some wont. But neutral language in French is not without issues, even for those it is meant for.

That being said, an L2 learner should not have any issue using neutral language if it applies to them, a person they know, or if they have enough knowledge of the topic to understand the cultural implications.

[oak jasper]

I wasn’t saying you did

I was saying that about people that do it

[gritty temple]

the french thought of it

[oak jasper]

I know

Lol

But it’s an issue among Francophones, so I think it’s better to leave Francophones decide on that issue and not second language speaker

That’s my point

[gritty temple]

iel, ça existe, c'est tout

tu peux l'utilises, voila

tout le monde

[mint scroll]

I don't understand what you mean. If someone asks me to use iel I'm going to try to do so.

Maybe I understood wrong though. When you say "using iel", do you mean as in you don't like L2s asking to be called by iel? Or do you mean literally I shouldn't use the word?

[gritty temple]

absolutement je ne lui comprends pas sa logique là

i guess they are trying to day "people who are just starting to learn shan't use this, let the french decide if it exists or not'

but like

iel exists

no matrer what you do

no matter if the user is a francophone or not

[oak jasper]

Well using it generally, it’s okay if it’s because you are non-binary

Just using at as a replacement of il in your generic speech

[oak jasper]

It barely does

L2’s using iel instead of the general il always come off to me and probably others as "your language is shit and I know better than you what to do with it"

Anyway iel is a bit dumb if you ask me il isn’t masculine it’s the unmarked pronoun

Gramatically speaking

[gritty temple]

you should have specified using iel in place of default il, rather than saying L2's using it isnt good and 'reforms your language' even if they use it correctly to someone who uses iel

[gritty temple]

but il is masculine also...?

[oak jasper]

Yeah unmarked

Feminine and unmarked

[gritty temple]

do enlighten me, in what context

[oak jasper]

When it isn’t feminine it’s unmarked

It’s called masculine tradtionally but it doesn’t fill the purpose of a masculine

The masculine and the neuter fused in Vulgar Latin due to them sounding similar

[oak jasper]

Well it’s what we were talking about in the first place so I thought everyone had gotten it

[gritty temple]

not at all, everyone interpreted it as such.

[gritty temple]

it fulfills the default 'it' like il est 9h, il pleut etc.

but look il is regarded as masculine in most contexts in humans

and elle is feminine

and people who dont feel they fit in both boxes went with iel

[stiff sandal]

If you use il when referring to a single human you'll almost always assume they're a man, which indicates it is not truly neutral. The history of neutral masculine doesn't change that.

I'm not a huge fan of it myself, but I prefer "iel" itself over most écriture inclusive, and recognize the reasons it's being used more and more.

[oak jasper]

That’s cultural

Well no you’re right for humans

But only in the singular

Ils is fully neutral

[gritty temple]

but it is true, il does connote masculinity for humans

for objects ofc not

[gritty temple]

yes, but deconstructing that means plural(il), hence why we use elles for fully female groups, and that females are disregarded when there is men in the group making it (ils)

[oak jasper]

It can also connote an unknown gender

[gritty temple]

but for that i say c'est la vie

[gritty temple]

yes but its assuming they're a man

[oak jasper]

Huh

Tbh I never took the time to think about this

I’ll think about it the next time I use it to see if I’m assuming it’s a man

[gritty temple]

well even if you are not, to the listener it does sound like it, given il is the default

like in english

[oak jasper]

Feminine and unmarked

[gritty temple]

"Hey my friend is coming over"
"What's HIS name"

"Mon ami(e) viens chez nous"
"Comment IL s'appelle?"

[gritty temple]

lets not talk objects. because that is 'unmarked'

[oak jasper]

Yeah ton ami could have any gender despite il being used

[gritty temple]

les tables, elles sont blanches

[gritty temple]

ton ami et ton amie

[oak jasper]

Hm?

[gritty temple]

yes, but naturally you would say

and correct

[gritty temple]

"ELLE s'appelle Marie"