#Protest against Price-Gouging Law

82 messages · Page 1 of 1 (latest)

pastel dagger
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The new PG law went into effect. We request a vote to be held against removing this law. Profit should not be limited.

With the support of the Governor of Unica, ooMike1 we are closing our stores in consolidation to protest against this egregious government intervention.

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iron palm
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An unfair law that should be demolished, I say.

Plus this will probably become a problem in the near future when people don't get clear signals of where the profit is.

Thank you @pastel dagger for opening this thread.

pastel dagger
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In summary:

An implementation of anti price gouging legislation went into effect. The government claims this is to ensure a more equal market.

This law on its basic form looks at your income (from your store and any sales to the university only) and ALL of your expenses - it uses a ratio of income and expense such that if your income from sales is more than 3 times your expense - you are subject to this laws enforcement

What does that look like? On 5d period - the law looks at your income and expense and removes profit in excess of the limit. The removed proceeds are moved to a holding account from there they are distributed to the UBI account, bank, and government as if the money had been printed (sent to recirculate thru UBI).

The government claims:

  1. prices often get stuck on shelf values where everyone’s prices match and there is no longer price competition. This law will encourage proper price competition based on actual business income and expense.
  2. vertical integration businesses escape a lot of taxes that their competition face. This law will also ensure that those businesses face similar expenses to have a more comparable market.
  3. monopolistic behavior is bad for the overall economy and makes it more difficult for consumers that need essential goods but can’t afford them because of artificially high prices.

The issue with all of this is too much government oversight. We need less government, not more. The market should be a free place for people to trade freely at whatever prices they decide! They SHOULD NOT be penalised for finding loopholes in the market to exploit because they are the ones to fill an unmet demand!

lime trout
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My argument as a MP towards this law was simply to much control over the market

vale locust
lime trout
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Correct people fear the law more then needed. It shouldn't effect people. Thought it does create a fear factor

vale locust
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Also the law doesn't look on what you are spending, you can sell something with 500% markup if you have also enough expanses

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What actually this law do is making people spend more not sit on money, circulate the money

iron palm
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ok, let miners craft planks. I mean, market is not and shouldn't be equal.
I went shipwright cause it's rare and an opportunity while bu2 are a thing.
This law comes to cut my profits, my fun, and my interest in this server cycle

pastel dagger
vale locust
iron palm
lime trout
iron palm
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someone told me I was making 1100% 🙂

lime trout
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XD

vale locust
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I mean, if I sell 1 piece of paper with 10k and spend 5k on furniture I will not be included in that ratio

iron palm
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sorry I only use windows calc if really needed, cause I hate web tools or excels when gaming

lime trout
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I would increase profit higher and just use that profit to invest within this law. My problem is Val is also planning to create a investment ferm/banking system. I am not sure if this is also to make people us it XD

lime trout
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From my view of this law it targets income, no?

vale locust
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Hourly I think on a 5d period

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@mild flower Maybe change the hourly with at server reset? Would make more sense as in some cases you don't spend the money in the same hour you made them

mild flower
vale locust
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This is the only thing I could see wrong with the law, until we can actually see our ratios

mild flower
vale locust
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I mean, I sell for 10k and I don't spend them in that hour, 5d from now for 1h I will be taxed very high

mild flower
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10k in sales is a 500 sales tax and (assumed 2,000 in income tax - it's actually less, but I dont wanna manually calculate the progressive tax scaling on this while at work). - so just the 10k sale is already 2,500 in expense in taxes

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so you're halfway there

vale locust
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@mild flower We can discuss some calculations when you are back home 🙂

lime trout
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Okay so where does this help price gouging as it can be countered by other investments

vale locust
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I would consider it more as a wealth tax

lime trout
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Yeah

modest charm
silk plinth
pastel dagger
spare jolt
lime trout
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⚔️

subtle willow
iron palm
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😎 sold some at 15, none at 20 tbh

silk plinth
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Make that money!

subtle willow
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I can't see any problem with this law tbh - as I can see it affected only the people who's prices were way too high, ofc market could have done the same by itself. But as long as constitution says
Advancement of the federation and environment protection are national objectives. and not Make rich people even more rich I personally think the law is absolutely fine

subtle willow
# silk plinth Make that money!

You can make much more money selling a lot of goods with relatively low margin, then trying to sell 10 wooden hull planks at x5 production price...

iron palm
silk plinth
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hull planks are a fairly high demand item lol. it used in research which is needed all cycle

iron palm
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but when selling for research prices are set by buyers, that's important

mild flower
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When I say “your store” - I mean that literally

iron palm
mild flower
iron palm
lime trout
subtle willow
lime trout
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This is a playstyle

subtle willow
lime trout
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That as nothing to do with opportunity. We are all free to choice the skills we want to participate in. If you are comparing skill set and have a strong opinion on how to handle them. Why not take it on?

That's what happen last cycle, competition lead to a lower price market. It is up to people to take on skills.

There are reasons why we have 30+ logging and only 5 shipwright.

You can't just yell at someone on how to manage their playstyle. Just prove them wrong instead.

Why is taken control over someone else's ideas or playstyle the first thing that is brought up

subtle willow
pastel dagger
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This is exactly my point. If you are not going to let people who take shipwright make 1000% profit margin then you will end up with 0 players taking shipwright (eventually)

There has to be a reason for a player to rush and sell iron bars first. It's because they can have a huge profit margin on it because they are first to deliver. If you remove this competitive reason, then you will end up with less competition in the long run.

Not everyone plays for profit and a lot of players play like communists, everything to everyone for free. But for those who want to get rich, let them get rich - it doesn't hurt anyone having wooden hull planks cost 20 euros each. Loggers can afford it.

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In my scenario I see no reason to rush and sell Powered Carts first as a Basic Engineer now because I will get heavily penalised if I try to make a massive profit from it. So I might as well sleep on it, wait for my UBI to come in and just buy it from another BE who doesn't mind doing free labor for everyone and selling them 200 each. It only requires me to do nothing for 6.5 hours.

subtle willow
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He started to sell them for 15 when there were 6.5 ofers on the market

subtle willow
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And noone is talking about free goods and communism

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it's just about reasonable markup

pastel dagger
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Choosing to be a shipwright doesn’t mean I owe anyone anything. In fact, you should be thankful for the items I put on the market because without them, they wouldn’t even be available. Even if you had 99,999 euros, you couldn’t buy wooden hull planks if none were listed. If you can’t afford my price of 100 each, that’s not my responsibility. It’s my choice to set that price, and if you want them, you’ll need to earn the money or find a friend to become a shipwright and control the market yourself. As a player, I shouldn't have to have any obligations to cater to others

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Mike1 did a favor to everyone by putting the wooden hull planks 20 each because someone could buy 4 (80 euros is totally affordable by the way, you just need to wait for UBI payments for 2.7 hours) and get their basic upgrade 2.

Without the basic upgrade 2 you couldn't even produce stuff at a reasonable cost to you

lime trout
# pastel dagger This is exactly my point. If you are not going to let people who take shipwright...

I like to widden my field of view over this. I still don't see a person with only shipwright making more then other skills. Regarless of margins. You are implying that because certain part of a skill makes the whole skill income is a bad thing. That is a design flaw. Nothing to do with federal laws or what we can do as citizens.

Most skills have many options to reach their impact over the market. It is clear that shipwright is focused on a certain item.

15 a hull means 30 euro is what shipwright brings to the upgraded scheme. Ye gathering can range from 30-45 euro for Bu1. Farming brings 75 euro to the table for their participitation.

There is to much focus on the value of the material then the participitation in the market

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you get 660 for free daily. We already have a strong socialist approach in WT. Not sure why there is topic of communism and commune. As these two have different ways to tackle stuff. Communes arn't giving they time or work to none members and communism is base on an entire other complex topic that I don't want to get into

mild flower
pastel dagger
# lime trout I like to widden my field of view over this. I still don't see a person with onl...

"I still don't see a person with only shipwright making more than other skills" - Yes, I can take logging and make more money. But I can take shipwright, enjoy much higher profit margins for a short time for a lot less work. Then, I am useless. I could spend this money I earned for whatever purpose I want. This is a choice everyone makes as a player.

"That is a design flaw" - You could call it that or you could call it a niche profession which can be taken opportunistically when there is no supply on the market.

"We have a strong socialist approach in WT" - Yes and this is the problem. You don't solve a problem by creating more laws. You fix them by slashing UBI in half. Then, when people HAVE TO think about making money will make the market more efficient by introducing more competition.

Personally, I have never seen a server with 100+ players be so lazy. I played in a server with 20 people where there is more competition on the market than here. This is precisely because the government intervention into monetary policy is too significant. You SHOULD have to work for the Powered Cart. You SHOULD have to put in a little bit of effort if you want a brick house. You shouldn't live off UBI and purchase everything freely without providing value back.

lime trout
# pastel dagger "I still don't see a person with only shipwright making more than other skills" ...

slashing ubi in half doesn't do anything tbf with you. It was recently increased by 20% because more stuff was added to the game. Ubi reflects the price of scrolls.

WT might just not be your cup of tea because it was build this way because of players, not admins. That is why people love WT, history and evolving by cycle too cycle.

To come in and request such drastic measurements with only "smaller servers do more" isn't going to make a supportive argument. I would suggest a goal to convince people of your ideal. Most of us, like myself, played on other servers. I have, had and still have that experience. Yet WT as something they don't. A community that is build over years of debate and confrontation.

I might not agree with the ideal of everyone I play here with, but I am happy that I can feel respected and show respect their views.

Like I am now, I respect your points. The problem there should never be a point where one should "expect" someone to do something else because of "reasons". UBI came from the idea to allow everyone their own playstyle and to play in this sandbox.

To come in here and call everyone lazy show's that you have little commitment to even show resolve. If something isn't going your way, learn to cooperate with others to achieve your goals. You shouldn't feel forced to cooperate. You are always welcome to go to an other town or maybe even an other server.

pastel dagger
# lime trout slashing ubi in half doesn't do anything tbf with you. It was recently increased...

Oh yeah don't get this the wrong way, I respect your opinion as well! And I am here attempting to make change. I am curious to see how far you can get if you're committed. I have a lot of ideas for WT, that all depends on whether I can find likeminded people. Currently it's hard to tell how difficult it is to make WT change. I am under no illusion that I am any better in judging what will make WT a better experience for everyone. Veterans like Valfreya may be a lot better in knowing what makes players stick around-that doesn't make my idea about slashing UBI in half invalid though

lime trout
silk plinth
lime trout
silk plinth
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ah didnt see above it was mentioned too lol. Prob should keep ideas split up but oh well

lime trout
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trust

pastel dagger
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What happened to the Price-Gouging Law? I thought a lot of people were going to get hit by a massive tax on day 5 0:00?

mild flower
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I haven't made the announcement yet cause real life timing - but see the house channel as to why

Short version = trigger not working as intended, so shelving in testing only mode

pastel dagger
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Will you still attempt it this cycle?

mild flower
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If I can get it working - possibly, but it wont be anytime soon - the investment law took me weeks to sort out the bugs xD

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also depends on parliament cuz it would have to be revoted to bring it back