#Change bases of indexwage

1 messages · Page 1 of 1 (latest)

honest sparrow
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Currently indexwage is based on the total amount of currency in circulation. This was made from a time before there was UBI and the idea behind it that the more players that are active the more currency there was in circulation the more work it would be for MP's (they also wern't called MP's at that time, but don't remember what the titles where at that time) it would be. Besides that it was also the goal to let the wage grow over the cycle to make it more attractive to get all positions filled even at the end.

What is observed with UBI now is that the wage raises much faster than it did before and in my opinion to high. To solve this I want to change the bases of the indexwage not on currency, but based on total stars of all non-abonond people. My idea behind this is this give the government an additional incentive to support the population in a constrictive way and would be reworded for making sure food and housing a priority.

Haven't thought about the exact formula that would be used but wanted to check the intrest of the MP's first. The goal would be that it ends up in a range of 60-120 during a cyle (about 30-60 for a MP)

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<@&807619796924497940> Any thoughts?

coral flume
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This problem is made worse this cycle with the specific change to the way printing works as printing is now done more often. The federal index wage is currently at 145e per hour. to employ just the basic ministers, it takes currently 18% of the federal budget at a minimum

honest sparrow
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The printing on its own is not a problem as the MoF account that it should print to is excluded from the currency in circulation, but UBI distributes it to everyone. Raising the UBI with that directly increases the wages though.

coral flume
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ah

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this is a constitutional law - so to change it we would need a referendum, but we can flush out a process

young kite
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isn't that working as intended though?
the money given as wage is also representative of the impact a title has on non wages skills.

MP for example aren't supposed to work as hard as we're needing to do this cycle. that's why our wage is half of the PM and lower than ministers who do have an active task.

PM was given 90+ and ministers 70-ish yesterday. i don't see a problem with that as they have little time to do anything else.
MP's are at 50 something

honest sparrow
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I don't want to change the wages percentage of indexwage, but the indexwage calculation itself. It would still mean that PM gets about 2x as much as MP's but the only the base number what wage is based on.

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The problem I see is that indexwage at week 2 is already higher than at the end of a cycle when this indexwage was introduced. Over the cycle it gets to high

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Another way to resolve that is to tweak the formula in such a way it raises slower than currently, but my proposal is to change the formula to something that government members have an indirect influence over and is a benefit for the people on the server

young kite
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aah ok. i get you

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what would it look like if only non abandoned citizens are counted for money in circulation.
abandoned wallets are just sitting there, not being in circulation, until someone manages to sell something for a probably low amount which than comes into circulation again.

honest sparrow
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currently abandoned people gets all/most of there wallet removed with the ubi collection. If we base it on stars it could mean that the indexwage will lower if more people go abandond than people get additional stars

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It could also be made to include the stars of abandoned people to avoid the risk of lower wage over time

young kite
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interesting. didn't know that. i have to read that law a bit to see what exactly happens. stars might be a way to go

honest sparrow
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the screenshot of Valreya is the current law (the part about indexwage calculation)

coral flume
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Another problem - which we are currently seeing in the budget talks is it severely limits the ability of the government to hire assistants as it takes up a huge portion of the federal budget

honest sparrow
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yes rebalacing the indexwage would help solve that

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ofcource the percentage of wages on the budget does depend on howmuch the governemnt taxes

coral flume
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ya - it's not exactly predictable

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unless assistant pay comes from the minister's pay? xD

honest sparrow
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assistants coming from minister budget makes sense to me, but from there wage becomes a bit strainge

young kite
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it should yes. part of their budget. would need to create pre-defined titles to assign to their budget.

honest sparrow
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well we could change the budgetting law to tranfer from the minister account to the wage budget

coral flume
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tho I would rather see the assistant wage come out of the manager's wage. As it's a delegation of duties. In the case of the PM and the PM's secretary. Based on the current numbers, the PM gets 145 - the secretary he hired gets paid 92. If the PM is delegating 63% of his work to his personal assistant - then his pay should reflect that (145-92)

young kite
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60% as a general rule for assistants compared to their employer isn't a bad idea

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but sounds to straightforward to be legal :p

coral flume
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I see there being 2 different issues here:

  1. The index wage is growing higher than anticipated this cycle and we want to reconsider how the index wage is calculated
  2. The current structure of wages limits how many assistants the government can reasonably hire before it becomes unbearable on the budget
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especially if each minister were to hire an assistant

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For issue 1) Frosty proposed changing the money circulated to a calculation based on stars of non-abandoned citizens
for issue 2) There's 2 proposals - (a) linking the assistant wages to the minister's particular budget rather than the wage account or (b) subtracting assistant wage from manager's wage

young kite
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i vote:

  1. yes
    2)a. yes

reasoning for 2)a. workload is a perspective matter that depends on too many variables. it can seem the assistant gets 80% of the tasks but reality can show that's 10% of the workload of the manager while still showing it's 100% of time for the assistant.
clear wages for every title reflecting the title itself, not the amount of work provided (that can be backed legally)

coral flume
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we still working on this?

young kite
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have been busy with other things. frosty won't be able to continue his adjustment but don't think it's difficult to do.
for 2.a there will need to be a title made for each minister assistant. after that it can be done.

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if noone else i'll have a look at this over the week. next 2 days are unsure on time investment on this

young kite
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using world age i had numbers in the range desired by frosty.
original formula:
25 + (( total € in circulation - amount of € in Fed Bank) / 24000)
formula with world age:
25 + (( total € in circulation - amount of € in Fed Bank) / ( 24000 + ( World Age in Days * 500)))

on day 18 it gives me 54,90 for MP

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MP's get 71,51 now

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i'd need more data though. as in, data from every day since start

coral flume
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can we pull the tax card from the wage account? Would it show the payments made per day? Or i'm not sure how to pull that kind of data

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or you just mean do the math for each day?

young kite
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apparently that account has so little data i have data since day 1

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only shows what it payed out though

young kite
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next to that would be assistants payed by the minister instead of the wages account.
that's MoF, MoE and MoI. SoC isn't seen as a minister.

MoE already got an assistant made that is assigned the same position as SoC, Federal Secretary.
MoF and MoI don't have this yet. the only ones below the Secretary paygrade are MP's and Civil Servants.

coral flume
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I think the minister's assistants should be separate from federal secretary or civil servant

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federal secretary is kinda the PM's assistant

young kite
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same, but that was decided with the referendum for the MoE assistant

coral flume
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It wasn’t decided to be the federal secretary - technically the proposal was to hire a research assistant which would be a new position entirely

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We discussed previously that the deputy / assistant to the ministers should be about 60% of the ministers pay coming from their budget specific budget rather than the wage account

young kite
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we discussed it, but that isn't what went into the referendum.

image.png
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a referendum goes with whatever info you put into it. no specifics given so by default it uses the default option.

coral flume
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As this is also a constitutional law and would require a referendum to change it - I feel like you are putting artificial barriers on it. The previous referendum discussed the research assistants’ ability to craft scrolls. If you want to set the wage at a different level in this proposal - I think you should put that forth also and not tie your hands unnecessarily

young kite
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oh, what i put forward will be detailed

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the wage amount is a different thing where i'm not sure a change suggested will change much. there are numbers that aren't used because it's technically not possible other than writing a monster. the MoF activity also influences the wages as less money being printed gives a higher wage. the artificial change of 24000 + anything else is not a strong foundation. the 24000 is a static where i don't see any relation. untill that becomes a dynamic it's not worth changing. so i have to think more about that.
since the second half is easier i propose to split it up.

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  1. extention to minister assistants with a new title and wage
  2. wageindex
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i don't see a reason why the SoC is a secretary and not a minister. their duty is not less than a minister.

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i'd promote the SoC to MoC with their own assistant

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with how the research assistant was created with allowing research scrolls to influence the path of the uni, the equal to secretary title woulod be correct and so does the wage.

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following that i don't see a reasoning to lower the wage of other assistant since they will be doing similar tasks as their minister where no difference in task is defined.

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with how their salary will be coming from the minister budget, i see no problem in that as it would need to be counted into their budget by parliament.

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this would still give parliament control in how many assistants can be hired and reduce or increase budget where they see fit.

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but i'll need to write that out the coming days. the only problem with that is that it's the coming days where activity numbers will drop regarding a vote.

coral flume
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Mhm :c

young kite
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tomorrow i have a psych appointment, hence no deadline as the after effects are unknown.

spark marsh
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I am in the process of locating a new MOE and arranging for new elections for MOE and COS

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not much else to do at the moment

young kite
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Referendum towards the change of Ministries administrative existence

The following is a proposition in changes towards:

  1. Addition of a Ministry Position
  2. Promotion to a Minister Position from Secretary
  3. Clerical titles for specific Ministries
  4. Title change from a Secretary position
  5. Wages for Ministry employees from Ministry budget

1. Addition of a Ministry Position
Going forward in ECO future we see a need to have a new position available in the name of a Minister of Agriculture. In short MoA.
This gives the future governments the option to assign a minister with the same strenghts the existing Ministries are having.

2. Promotion to a Minister Position from Secretary
The task of SoC, while defined as a Secretary of Culture, is more in line with what is in effect a Minister of Culture role.
It is only fair the SoC should become MoC with a wage equal to the other Ministers.

3. Clerical titles for specific Ministries
In itself there was no previous need for this. However, with (5.) there is a requirement for specific titles so their wage comes from the correct budget.
Their wage will be equal to their title as Secretary as was already set by the title "Research Assistant".

  • [SoI]Secretary of Infrastructure (Assigned by the MoI)
  • [SoF]Secretary of Finance (Assigned by the MoF)
  • [SoC]Secretary of Culture (Assigned by the MoC)
  • [SoA]Secretary of Agriculture (Assigned by the MoA)
  • [SoE]Secretary of Education (Assigned by the MoE)

4. Title change from a Secretary position

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In a previous referendum from this government there was a request to add a title to the MoE Employees list that could assist in the Queueing of scrolls. This title was named "Research Assistant".
In order to keep in line with the other titles suggested to avoid any confusion to what is what "Research Assistant" needs to be renamed to "Secretary of Education" as found in (3.)

5. Wages for Ministry employees from Ministry budget
Currently all wages come from the # Federal Government Wages Fund. Since Ministerial Employees are not part of the government and are assigned at the discretion of individual Ministers it is only logical their wage is not payed by the Government directly but from the budget of the Minister in question.
This removes the need for the parliament to account all Secretary wages in budget discussions and gives the Ministers more freedom in assigning these titles and keeping control of their employees without Parliamentary input and/or interference only limited by the Ministry Budget.

  • SoI wage from # Ministry of Infrastructure Budget
  • SoF wage from # Ministry of Finance Budget
  • SoC wage from # Ministry of Culture Budget (This is a name change of the "Secretary of Culture Budget" to be in line with the promotion of the role to Minister)
  • SoA wage from # Ministry of Agriculture Budget
  • SoE wage from # Ministry of Education Budget
grave otter
coral flume
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Does this define the wage level or percentage? Or is that separate in consideration?

young kite
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this proposition points towards the wages that exist for the currently existing titles. the new titles reference those existing titles

coral flume
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so the secretary of X is just the federal secretary wage?

young kite
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yes

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this to keep in line with the Research Assistant who has a federal secretary wage

coral flume
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Do we have an idea of what the MoA's duties would be? As most of the duties that I could see assigned to them currently reside with the MoI (mostly changing district maps). Would this also shift any of the end-game objectives to different ministries? (i.e. reseeding package)

young kite
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the last mention in a thread was #1276198240316031067
there have been multiple references during this and the previous cycles that point towards a future need, including husbandry.
what the exact duties are is undefined. only a platform to start is provided as more is not required.

coral flume
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so it gives a government position with no duties or responsibilities? I do know there is a future need but husbandry might not be out for awhile. It just sounds like creating a free paycheck position. The duties and responsibilties should be identified when the position is created - it could be expanded later

young kite
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in that case the MoA will be removed from this doc as it would take too long to define.

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agree?

coral flume
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I don't see any issues with the other - but will note that there may be other restrictions in various laws that restrict what the secretary of each ministry can actually do

young kite
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well there are quite a few problems that exist now since the roles are no longer according to the constitution. but that part was missed by the public in the previous referendum

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but! the meaning of a federal secretary is in reality wider than what is defined in the constitution. so i'm ok with that

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did you know that SoC needs to be appointed by the President?

coral flume
young kite
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we give the man a palace though 🤷‍♂️

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if we want to keep the ministerial helps in line with what exists they should be defined as public servants. as they're not really allowed to hire secretaries. that's under the authority of the PM.

coral flume
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however the tasks which they would be hired to do which is effectively the deputy minister of each position to fulfil their actions while they are unavailable is worth more than 15% of the index wage. As they could already hire civil servants, there would be no need for this proposal at all

young kite
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that it would. as in that case there isn't an issue of budget really.
an addition would then need to be that the PM hires a deputy on the request of the minister.