Adjusting Locker pen on Killhouses

[tough harness]

From what myself and @clever aspen saw, the lockers should be penetrable by medium pen weapons also, as long as they are shot head-on, avoiding the sides of each individual lockers. Back-to-back lockers are unpenetrable though. I can't be certain this is true until I actually go test it in-game though.
I do generally agree though that there is too much stuff that blocks wallbangs for medium pen weapons.

However, I think the primary issue with Killhouses is that they gen with too many rooms, and a lot of those rooms are very ratty and difficult to clear properly with flashes.

Perhaps one of the devs could post a screenshot of the lockers hitboxes to show what it looks like

[ancient harbor]

lockers is a pretty unique room and I think changing it would make kh feel even more bland tbh

I agree with roach the issue is often too many rooms/chokepoints, the few kh's that arent a deathtrap for atk have wall charges that can cut out a lot of the room clearing

[tough harness]

Another issue that would happen if lockers were reduced from thick to thin is the high pen weapons would now deal full damage through them

[ancient harbor]

I don't think it'd need to be toned down much but -1/2 rooms would be kinda nice

[tough harness]

And possibly a small reduction in the amount of cover, or a small increase to the general size of rooms

Door placement might also factor into this. Sometimes doors are placed in such a way that flashing into the main part of a room is next to impossible

[ancient harbor]

another note, with shotguns being nerfed kh has actually been a lot more fun recently

on both atk and def

I'd kinda wanna see how the win rate changes before changes are made

[tough harness]

One example of the door placement is construction > crates on this map, it's much harder since you can't get a flashbang into the upper right side of crates, which has a nice sightline on the door.

[tough harness]

Ye, solid flash placement has become less essential due to shotguns no longer being so oppressive, as well as generally attackers being able to survive more often in the ratty areas of the maps as defenders have to be so much closer and much more precise with their shotguns.

[rain tiger]

I do not change my map making style for killhouses, I do the same for cstore and bank but both are fine in comparison

I believe personally it is to do with that all guns can wallbang and defenders have DAWN and Naks

[jovial terrace]

me when i get one of the demon killhouses and im forced to green out

[tough harness]

The rooms on cstore and bank are much more open compared to many of the rooms in killhouse.
Office, kitchen, crates, lockers, etc are all often packed with floor to ceiling dividers and tons of cover.

And ye, these tilesets are all supposed to be unique, I don't think anyone wants cstore, bank and killhouse playing the same way. Wallbangs are a major part of killhouse's identity and mapping should be done with that in mind

[rain tiger]

Oh it done with wallbangs in mind, it mean more like I dont place more chokeholds than normal or place harder doors, I think rooms size as well they are pretty much the same/some what larger than c-store

[feral shell]

hallways with 2 instead of 3 halfwalls (or other tummy high cover) and less halfwalls on corners would be great honestly

[rain tiger]

The problem is is that if we start removing rooms we starting getting maps that just dont play well, they will no be able to have rotates and would result in worse maps

[rain tiger]

The only reason this map is big is because of reception

reception is a massive green room that doesn't really add anything, to correctly look at a killhouse size you need to imagine reception being a smaller green like loading or checkpoint

The rooms size and killhouse in general is as small as you can really get before it starts to become much worse for gameplay

[tough harness]

All the wallbangs you've listed as purple there are through thin walls. That is also a very very small map, which afaik has not been removed because it's a bot map.
Something between this and the current very large killhouses would be ideal

[tough harness]

I gave that map as an example of how door placement can make rooms difficult to push, not as an example of a large map. That map is a good size for what it is I feel, in a way it actually feels too small because the left side of the map goes mostly unused

Fair, the nack wallbangs from lockers to the southern red is very strong. Though, I'm pretty sure you can shoot back with aps / blks, and if that red wasn't such a funnel it would be much less of an issue

[ancient harbor]

the alternative is making bombs more central rather than tucked away in a corner of the map

[rain tiger]

Then you have crazy ATK sided maps

[ancient harbor]

not every map is like that

it's not a thing to apply everywhere

[tough harness]

I also think this map isn't useful to use as an example as it's an old GEC map that can't be removed due to the training maps

[ancient harbor]

but often times atk is forced to clear the entire kh just to have a shot at entering the bomb room

[tough harness]

This killhouse comes to mind when you say that

The office red is close to bomb, but taking from there gives very little map control without a split through hall or something

At which point you may as well just green it

That office is also insanely ratty, with wallbangs from site and hall, and the 2 mini rooms

[tough harness]

Some banks also feel this way

I've rarely seen attack win on this

[ancient harbor]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1362564128543080639/1372276285555871866/image.png?ex=6855a562&is=685453e2&hm=f42248ecfd81630a4f30a8998eb6a0c6e205dde21a357c7066a825863548491f&

definitely not perfect but this comes to mind as a good central bomb

[tough harness]

I feel like that one has really strong wallbangs from kitchen and club, requiring you to take the full south side of the map

[rain tiger]

Two things about this map:

1. Gen was quite nice with this and at the end of the day the gen is master and so we must all bow to it
2. The only reason this map feels like a good central map is because the red door north is the thing scurried away, this basically give ATK 2 option either backstage or green you rarely see anyone go office due to it being so far away. This basically means that the ATK is at a sevear disadvantage

[ancient harbor]

however because atk has a viable green, multiple wall charges, and a decent red it doesn't end up def sided

[tough harness]

I think the amount of entry points balances it due to defenders not being able to barb everything

[ancient harbor]

map gen is fair and I get that tho

[ancient harbor]

there's other ways to play around wall bangs and having the option to wallbang bomb adds a good bit of depth to the map

that's kinda what kh is all about

[tough harness]

I think this is a good sized killhouse, maybe a little small but I feel it plays well. Attackers aren't running out of flashes early but there is still a lot defenders can do.
I think if the green and eastern red door were swapped it'd feel a bit bigger

[jovial terrace]

isnt this map just walk in green and get spammed from hall

[tough harness]

Ye, I don't think I've ever seen people go construction

I think this map is a little on the large side but I think it plays well

That's fair, the lockers is rough to deal with there. I was referring to the size of the map being nicer, though similarly to that other map earlier it feels smaller due to the east side going mostly unused

[tough harness]

I think this map is also pretty good. The office in the south is a bit too ratty with the dividers and the double mini-rooms, which makes getting through it a nightmare from what I've seen. But, nowhere feels like it goes unused and the size of the map means attackers are only going through 2-3 rooms to get to bomb.

Oh wait the bit in the bottom is just some office desks not a mini-room

The dividers and mini-rooms make it significantly easier to dodge flashes, making attacker pushes much much harder

[jovial terrace]

bitch

[tough harness]

This map feels like a good size, but the office, lockers and crates are too hard to flash into properly

I'm pretty sure you can shoot back, but I haven't had the chance to try

[jovial terrace]

no...

[tough harness]

Maybe removing the penetration value on the locker sides, and only having it on the backs of the lockers, would help attackers shoot back

Changing them to thin does nothing unfortunately, because now the nack/dawn do full damage whilst the med pen weapons are doing half damage

And also just removes the point of having lockers

I really want to test medium pen shooting through lockers in-game

Like it should pen

[jovial terrace]

i dont think it should

[tough harness]

No like, from what I saw with the hitbox and penetration values, the medium pen weapons are able to pen lockers

[jovial terrace]

just take saber and wallbang them back

[tough harness]

Well the high pen weapons are doing half through lockers, medium pen weapons should actually be better penning lockers, as long as you're shooting dead on

[jovial terrace]

lockers are supposed to be very thick no

[tough harness]

From what I saw they're thick

[jovial terrace]

do you have to add the wall onto that

[tough harness]

Ye, it'd bring the thickness from 5 to 7

medium pen weapons have 10 pen energy

High pen can shoot through two of the locker panels as that would bring the thickness to 12, including the thin wall

[jovial terrace]

i think ap pen is low now

maybe can still do half damage with blk tar but never tried

[tough harness]

That'd be great to know if so

Because it would also mean it's doing half damage through thin walls and can't headshot

Actually we can check that in the training range lol

I could also check the locker wallbangs on the bot maps

Ye ap is medium pen unless the thick glass in the training range is also bugged

[rain tiger]

Okay data I have, AP is 10 Pen the lockers tho are not one big hitbox so you are technically going through 2 thick hitboxes and so dealing no damage

[tough harness]

The front of the lockers has no thickness iirc

[rain tiger]

feint lines

[rain tiger]

nope

both are thick

[tough harness]

Like the door side is set to none

Does backstage have different lockers?

[rain tiger]

They use the same locker just textured differently

[tough harness]

Because I went through them with @clever aspen and I distinctly remember the door side hitbox being set to none

Might be misremembering tho

[rain tiger]

I am looking directly at the hitboxes both say thick

[tough harness]

Alright interesting, Idk what I'm remembering then

[tough harness]

Bro idk wtf I'm remembering because I remember each individual locker having walls also, not just one big box

https://tenor.com/view/balthazar-crazy-family-guy-fou-gif-11775947423386520412

[rain tiger]

its not one big box

those are two hit boxes selected

[tough harness]

Ah right, are there hitboxes inside it too then, for the walls of each individual locker?

Thanks for clarifying that the lockers are double thick 🫡 Really good to know

[rain tiger]

really is

[tough harness]

Yess, very important because it means we were right they are essentially very thick.
That's why I was so sure, I remember distinctly having my mind blown learning that the front side of lockers is set to none 🥴

[signal pawn]

gib attackers high pen gun

[fossil lake]

dawn on attack 😍

[rain tiger]

well DAWN did used to be an atk gun

we swapped it over as we thought it might make more sense

but a NAK type gun could be quite cool on ATK

[fossil lake]

blk tar ap rounds when

[signal pawn]

True.... When.

[feral shell]

might be floating in the files somewhere still tbh

[tough harness]

Now that we're certain of the hitboxes of the lockers, going back to the original suggestion, lowering the pen value / thickness of the lockers from thick > thin could be viable to allow attackers to shoot back.

I'll only look at the front and back hitboxes of the lockers, which are both thick. There may be some inconsistency in practice due to any other hitboxes in the lockers.

If you were to change both to thin, it would mean the thickness would be 4, +2 from the thin wall, totalling 6. This would mean both med and high pen would be doing half damage through locker walls.
It would, however, mean med and high pen weapons would also be able to pen the back-to-back lockers you see used as dividers in the locker rooms.

An alternative would be to make only the front hitbox thin, keeping the back hitbox thick. This would make the back-to-back lockers 2x thick and 2x thin hitboxes, totalling to 14 thickness, allowing only high pen weapons to go through.
Meanwhile, the wall lockers would be 1x thick and 2x thin, including the wall, totalling 9 thickness, meaning med pen weapons would still be able to pen them.

[rain tiger]

I think you are over thinking it, best way of fixing this is make all the lockers hitboxes have no thickness and have a new large hitbox go all over and be thick, meaning that both are pen able including lockers and walls

[tough harness]

With the wall lockers, med pen weapons would still be at a disadvantage as they are 1 thin object away from being unable to pen. This means if they were to hit a desk or something on the wall with a hitbox, they would not pen. Meanwhile, the high pen weapons would still pen

[tough harness]

Sure, that works too. It seems like GEC avoided doing 1 big hitbox so I was following that principle

[rain tiger]

I think GEC avoided it due to how lockers used to explode and there used to be destruction on them

Basically left over hitboxes from alpha

these lockers are old as fuck

[tough harness]

I meant in general, every object has precise hitboxes, many seemingly unnecessarily

Like the arcade machines on cstore

[rain tiger]

Yes which again have been in since alpha and I doubt anyone would change them since then

[tough harness]

Ahhhh, I see. So they would destruct and their separate hitboxes would fall away individually?

[rain tiger]

If you look at bank hitboxes a lot are just larrge blockers and more simple shapes hitboxwise

[tough harness]

Ohhh, interesting

We didn't get around to looking at bank

That's good to know

[rain tiger]

Lockers had removeable locks on the doors and other such things that would benefit many hitboxes

[tough harness]

Makes more sense now why the hitboxes are so, seemingly unnecessarily, complex

[rain tiger]

Physics was another thing

many things had to have lots of hitboxes so when exploded it would create realistic destruciton

but now due to how it works all you need is one hitbox

The whole hitbox system is very CSable

[tough harness]

I seeee, huh

[rain tiger]

possible could go over everything and make hitboxes a bit more consistant

[tough harness]

That would be an awesome update, to make thicknesses more consistent. Though generally a pretty small thing except for nerds like me

🤓 🤜🤛 🤓

[rain tiger]

well I mean it would make some thing a bit better, like it would make some fights a bit better like loans desk fights with that PC

[tough harness]

That very thick cash register in liquor

[ancient harbor]

if you make that pc break when I shoot it I'll buy 3 supporter packs