#Snowball balancing

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meager wraith
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(This is gonna be a long one 💀, tldr at the bottom tho it doesn't give the full context)
I have been told directly that the autoshotgun's strength in the hands of attackers is a balance decision to counterweigh its strength on defence. This same concept is seen in many other areas, like the mawp & sabr, frag grenades, KRs, Ingmar, clackers and most of all the torch. In some cases it is simply losing the weapon/item, in other cases it's giving it to the opponent.
Using the strength of these weapons/items in the hands of the opponent, or the impact they have in future rounds if you win and keep them, as a balancing aspect is leading to one side being able to snowball off the back of winning round 1 of a set. I fear this emphasis on round 1 is soon going to lead teams to gamble further on winning round 1, and cause more games to be heavily one-sided in score.

The idea on paper sounds great, you have a limited supply of tools and you need to spread them out over the 3 rounds. Some of these tools are especially powerful, but if you lose them / give them to the opposing team it can be devastating.
That is a fun concept but I think it is, or at least is going to, lead to unhealthy gameplay.
The reality is, this game is severely punishing on mistakes. Small things in a round can have a huge impact. And to make mistakes even more punishing, there are only 3 rounds per set. Ending a half 5-1 or 4-2 makes it a serious uphill battle going into the next half, especially considering that some maps are heavily one-sided. If the last round of the set is heavily defender sided, and the winning team is on defence, they have the chance to win the game before the losing team even gets their chance on that one-sided map.

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Due to how important each round is, it's vital to win maps where your side is favourable. This often means taking these powerful weapons. If it's a Dome, you're likely taking mawp/sabr and ingmars. If it's killhouse you're likely taking KRs. Many of the close range maps have incredible spots for the auto, and taking it can give you a big advantage. Cstores, factories, killhouses often have very powerful spots for the torch.
But even with those advantages, a small mistake can lead to that round lost. And when that round, where you've taken powerful weapons / equipment, is round 1 of the set. A round that you need to win, but losing means giving these items to the opposing side for the next 2 rounds. That loss can mean maps later in the set, that would otherwise also be favourable for you, are now favourable for your opponent. And if they win their side of that same map in round 1 of the set, you don't get that advantage they had in round 2 and 3.

I don't think snowball balancing should be completely removed from the game, but I think its emphasis is unhealthy.
The old mawp, imo, is a prime example of how it can be done well. Losing the mawp is quite a negative, but not something you can't work around. With the old mawp, giving it to the attackers meant they were getting an extremely powerful weapon. However, the solution was to give the defenders full control over how much ammo they're taking. If they felt they're in a safe position, they can take more ammo, but if they feel they're being risky, they can take less. The frag grenades are another example where it's in a decent spot. If you give the defenders a frag it can be devastating, but the attackers at any point in the round can just use it to ensure that doesn't happen. If they choose to hold on to it, they know the risk they're taking.

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I think the torch is an example of unhealthy snowballing. If you get cstore round 1 and decide to use torch on entrance, as is pretty standard currently on a lot of maps, it can give you a huge advantage in the round. Not taking it can make favourable maps become unfavourable for your team. But, if you lose this round, you now don't have it for the next 2 rounds. That would be alright, if it worked liked the charges or frags. When you use a charge, it's gone. But with the torch, you have enough fuel to use it across multiple rounds. If you win with it, it continues to give you immense value in future rounds. This means losing a round where you torch can straight up lose you multiple rounds off the back of losing it.

TLDR: I think primarily the issue is in the impact specific weapons/items have over the course of the 3 rounds. When you want to bring a door charge, you're not forced to bring both. If you're bringing both it's a risk you're taking as you know your future rounds will be weaker. But when taking the torch, you don't have the choice to leave behind some fuel in the truck. You're taking the whole thing, and if you win you can continue to use it. Same with the autoshotgun, it has enough ammo to last the whole 3 rounds, but if you lose it round 1 it's gone. Meaning winning with it is a major advantage.

spiral arrow
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Damn bro

meager wraith
spiral arrow
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I’m sorry roach you will get them next time

meager wraith
ancient kernel
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am i allowed to say skill issue?

meager wraith
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Here, I'll give you the emote to do so

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It's on the meme

ancient kernel
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Is the issue with the torch that not having the torch in later rounds is too punishing or is it the defenders getting their hands on it is too powerful?

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I assume its the former but that can't really be solved without giving the attackers 2 torches with less ammo

spiral arrow
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Defense torch is a joke

ancient kernel
meager wraith
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But anyway, memes aside, they're 100% winning their games because they're simply better. No doubt in anyone's mind about that.

This post isn't about us losing or something, this is simply something I've noticed on a few of the sets.
There were cases where we would lose round 1 to them having a nice torch play or autoshotty play, then we'd face those same tools again in later rounds. But come around to our side, they'd have a great defence because they were more ready for the strat and we'd lose.
But going into round 2 and 3 of the set, we'd realise we've straight up just not got the resources they had, and those maps were significantly harder simply because we lost round 1 where they won.

meager wraith
# ancient kernel I assume its the former but that can't really be solved without giving the attac...

It is the former for the torch specifically, yes. I think the simplest solution would be to reduce to the torch's fuel to only be able to torch a couple of things.
Say 10 seconds, so it can torch 1 barb, 1 window or 2 barbs.

Same with the autoshotty, if it had 10 shots, most of those shots will get used in the round. They won't have the ammo to use it across 3 rounds, though with both drums they could use it across 2.
However, with only 10 shots, there could be more incentive now to bring both drums, whereas currently it's literally only done by Zig to aura farm 😂

spiral arrow
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Idk 10 shots is too much

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Give it 7

meager wraith
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Anything less than 20 peepoteddycrying

spiral arrow
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Nah I’ve never died to auto

ancient kernel
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30 next patch just for you

sharp veldt
spiral arrow
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Nerfing auto ammo won’t really do anything

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Unless it’s down to 5

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Then it might effect the gun

meager wraith
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You don't need to spawn late to bring one drum afaik?
I've never been given the extra drum, but tbf I'm almost always spawning late because I plan to the last second

sharp veldt
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It might do that if you don't take a secondary, but I'm not 100% on that because why the hell wouldn't you take a secondary

unreal juniper
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he cant help it hes italian

meager wraith
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It does it with it the the super shotty and I HATE THAT grrr

topaz girder
meager wraith
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I think we should remove 1 tub and 2 shorties so we can take max shells every round yesnod

unreal juniper
sharp veldt
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or give Defenders like one more box of shotgun ammo. it doesn't make sense to me that Attackers have two trays that they never even empty one of

meager wraith
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I agreed with it after like 30 messages, remember?

sharp veldt
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and I'm sitting here like 'some twelve gauge for a poor TUB user? some twelve gauge, sir?'

meager wraith
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Though tbh, I'd rather than shotguns be less unbelievably broken than just have less of them

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Oh fuck guys

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What have we done

sharp veldt
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back on topic before Jett notices and kills us

meager wraith
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I think to have frags be regularly usable for damage/kills, they'd have to be significantly reduced in damage.
It's just not fun and often unavoidable to have a frag fly in from across the map just to instantly die to it. The primary reason it's not an issue currently is because the barbs are a more important target.

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I did suggest way way back to remove the ability from frags to be able to destroy barbs, and instead create a new throwable that only destroys barbs. Primarily due to it being confusing that a frag grenade's primary purpose is to destroy barb wire

stark stream
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or just like a pair of scissors

real elk
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Already see myself bhop with sledge through walls

glass sage
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I fear a single thumbs down does not convey my thoughts properly here

nova pecan
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reading a doctoral thesis about how match economy affects matches. This feels like kinda just a nothing burger of a post man. like yeah if you lose rounds with heavy investment that puts you at a disadvantage and so you have to constantly decided how much you wanna invest especially early on. If you are afraid about how later rounds might play out you just bring less util. Also current MAWP, as well as every other gun in the game, lets you control how much ammo you bring.

meager wraith
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The point is, that winning with certain powerful weapons/equipment currently leads to snowballing, because they're not one-use items, so if you win you can use them again. And I think it's unhealthy to balance their strength around the fact that losing them can hurt a lot in future rounds.

nova pecan
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So you don't want match economy then. Which means you don't really wanna play with one of the unique things due process brings to the table. I feel like the devs realized how snowbally a side could be and that's why the more serious matches have a total of 4 sides and need atleast 7 rounds. No 1 single 3 round split is going to lose you the game.

meager wraith
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I don't consider the KRM or Ingmar power weapons and I think they're fine. I used them as an example of how snowballing is already present in the game as-is, but didn't mean to insinuate they were a problem in their current state.

I think the problem is most notable with the torch and auto. They are both very powerful items on a lot of maps, requiring strong planning to counter them and often well used utility.
On a map where they're strong, it's not really an option to not bring them as you're putting yourself at a disadvantage in that round. You can't take less ammo, like with the other weapons, and they're not single-use like other utility.

Personally, I feel this may put too much importance on the rounds where they are used, where some sets may be drastically changed depending on whether you win or lose the round you bring them.
Two solutions that come to mind, though I'm mostly presenting a possible problem here, I'm not intending to say I have all the answers.
One would be, as you said, to reduce their strength so that if you do win with them, using them again in future rounds isn't such a big boon.

I think a better solution would be to limit their total usage. Right now, both the torch and auto have enough fuel/ammo that teams rarely run out of it, even if used across multiple rounds. Just like when bringing a frag in to a round, your intention is to have it for this round, choosing to give it up for the other rounds regardless of if you win or lose. If they had less ammo, they would follow the balance of other utility. But, if they're not needed or underused in that round, you still have them for later rounds.

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^
I think the non-power weapons follow the balance of the first solution, where their strength is not so impactful that losing them is a significant loss for future rounds, or keeping them such a boon.
I just think the second solution is better so as not to butcher the "power" part of them being power weapons

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All that leads back to my original problem, that I believe using the fact you can/can't use these items again in future rounds, if you win/lose, is a poor counterweight to their strength, as it leads to some sets hinging on the rounds where they are brought

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Some might like that risk-reward, but I think it's anti-competitive as it puts more emphasis on those singular mistakes and reduces the potential for comebacks

nova pecan
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I've been auto rushed enough times that I wouldn't complain about it losing a mag.

But I do think in general the analysis of having high risk-reward situations as being anti-competitive is wrong. The only major tac shooter without a macro strategy system rn is R6 and even that's being changed. CS and Val both make you have to decide how much you are willing to spend each round and if you fuck up and spend to much and lose you can easily spiral. In things like MOBA's you have to decide when to use items and ulties as to maximize gains without exposing yourself to weakness at later important events.

I personally think Due Process is in a decent spot with match economy rn as again every split is only 3 rounds and in competitive play you get 4 splits. Meaning you can reasonably just not take important util early if you think it's going to also be powerful in later rounds.

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Also your proposed solution doesn't fix your core problem. If you nerf auto ammo or torch fuel to the point of it being a 1 round use type of thing, and then bring it and not get the win you are still gimped in later rounds which would be snowballing

meager wraith
nova pecan
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Except if you bring auto and don't use it or only use a small amount of rounds the opponent can still grab it and thus snowball a future round

meager wraith
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In counter-strike there are a lot more rounds, and getting back to a relatively even playing-field only takes a round, maybe 2, of ecoing.
On top of that, counter-strike has a comeback system, where as you continue to lose rounds without winning you get more and more money.
Due Process does not have this type of long-term economy, and it does not have any comeback systems.

nova pecan
meager wraith
meager wraith
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Not that I'm suggesting Due Process should have a comeback solution, I'm just pointing out that counter-strike does and so works differently

nova pecan
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By reducing mag size you incentivize bring both mags (if you would still allow 2 mags) which then still gives advantage to the opp's if you die. If you nerf mag size and mag quantity you kill auto shotty.

(Auto correct kicking my ass with this post)

meager wraith
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It's actually a major gripe I have with League of Legends. I hate that mistakes in your laning phase often has irreversible effects, and that snowballing is a hugely prevalent part of the game, at least from my limited experience with it. I am bad at mobas though so correct me if I'm wrong

nova pecan
meager wraith
meager wraith
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Which, in 3 round sets, is gigantic

nova pecan
stark stream
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what im reading is that
most items in the game: choose how much risk/reward you want (how much ammo and stuff)
torch and auto: you can only go all in (this is what roach doesnt like)

meager wraith
# nova pecan So you don't like most comp games. The only comp shooter rn that doesn't have pu...

I have 3k hours in counter strike, snowballing is there but its comeback features allow you to recover. The team winning consistently will have a built up economy, but there's only so much you can buy in a single round. Because of this, and the loss bonuses, you can build up a similar arsenal and fight on an even playing field in the round. If you win, they can still full buy, yes, but then you're again fighting on an even field. And if you keep winning, you reverse snowball, putting them in the position where they now have to eco, build up their economy, to fight you on an even field.

nova pecan
stark stream
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yeah for auto you can just shoot it preround (but that gives away your plan)
for torch I'd argue that its really valuable and has value equivalent to a door charge (or more)

meager wraith
stark stream
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torch red vent
torch fan
torch window bars
torch toxic screen
torch barbed
torch doors
torch shutters

also torching people

meager wraith
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It's also used on a lot of cstores and factories to open very important sightlines

meager wraith
nova pecan
stark stream
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you get crazy value with torch tho
like you can get 6 grenades worth of value with torch

you are right on the unique interactions part, only unique thing is torching shutters and window bars

nova pecan
meager wraith
stark stream
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my green door barbs :(
(especially on bank lol)

meager wraith
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And if you're unlucky enough to get multiple maps where torch opens strong sightlines, and you lose on the first round, the other team is at a significant advantage that half

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If they win that round ofc

stark stream
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tbh
2 torches with 10 ammo
autoshotgun with 10 magsize but 2 reserve mags

nova pecan
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^ not the worst balance option

meager wraith
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Honestly, I think 1 torch with 10-12 fuel, auto with 2 mags, 10-12 shots each

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But that's talking specifics and is very subjective without thorough testing

stark stream
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yea torch has way too much value for a single piece of util

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its like an op swiss army knife

glass sage
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splitting torch into 2 is a lateral move, but a straight up buff for bad teams/players

meager wraith
glass sage
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I would say just make a better plan or live with the consequences

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that punishment being there drives improvement

meager wraith
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I think it does the opposite of drive improvement since you'll have less rounds to learn from due to being at an inherent disadvantage in them from losing certain items on the first one.
Some people will look at a map with a powerful torch sightline and just chalk up their loss and their opponent's win to not having / having that torch.
They're not going to learn any more from the first round loss just because they're punished harder in the other rounds

nova pecan
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being down is supposed to push to be creative

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if you can only play while at 100% power then you arent really that good

glass sage
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when no punishment exists what is the incentive to learn? If you can waste everything and continue getting results because the ceiling is at the floor where do you go from there?

meager wraith
glass sage
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the game is about learning and creatively adapting to specific circumstances

glass sage
meager wraith
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I'm more in favour of reducing its ammo to make it mostly used in 1 round. It keeps the thought behind its use, but means winning with it is less impactful

nova pecan
acoustic bronze
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add an RPG

meager wraith
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Using it and failing is the entire point of the game's economy

nova pecan
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failing isnt the point, but consequences for your actions is

meager wraith
nova pecan
meager wraith
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Like my suggestion would make it so you can't just bring torch/auto, use it to win and have it for every round, meaning regardless of win or loss you'd still suffer the consequences of choosing poorly when to bring it

nocturne tinsel
quick onyx
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I suppose I could possibly see some small benefit being given to a team thats been in a lost-lost scenario similar to how in cs/val you get extra money when you're losing rounds in a row, perhaps without changing other fundamental things of the economy.

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there are many times when you're in that w-w scenario and you know the other team has absolutely nothing up their sleeve but, I do feel like that is some of the games economy fundamentally, it's why it's not a good idea to take 2 ingmars big ak and auto and like 4 barb and 3 mollys first round tho

unreal juniper
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if you end up that down bad after 2 rounds thats just your fault tho

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like thats how the game is meant to work

quick onyx
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true, i'm of two minds on it.