AP-25 needs a slight nerf

[bleak sand]

As an attacker you can beam across long range tile sets like factory with almost no recoil to control. Adding more spread at long range would mostly fix this and make taking long angles more viable as a defender.

[midnight pollen]

working as intended, in a head on fight ESPECIALLY at long range the ap25 will just win unless the cop who peeked is bad

fear the ap25, expect all cops to be scary and plan accordingly, the most simple way to turn the scales is by shooting before you are seen

[bleak sand]

then the blk-tar doesnt fill a different role and most skilled players can easily flick and kill a defender even if the defender shoots first (at a distance)

[worldly nebula]

i feel like the blk tar is useless ngl

i'd much rather just use an AP-25 every round

[bleak sand]

yeah it really is good at everything. I can consistently flick and kill defenders at any range with it. Feels especially broken if they are using a legros or ingmar

[topaz sage]

Both the Tar and the AP are viable and useful rn, the AP used to be much more broken before, it feels in the perfect spot rn i think

[worldly nebula]

it was so broken back in the brace fire laser beam era

i remember headshotting ppl cross map with the laser beam

[wise wedge]

man, you shouldve seen gunplay 1.0 4 years ago

no recoil / no jump penalty / no sway brace fire

[topaz sage]

1.0 and 2.0 ap was fucking stupid lmao

[topaz sage]

Real

[worldly nebula]

i miss jump scoping people

can we bring that back

[short summit]

legros maybe, but ingmar is straight up a skill issue if they cant get you

i often tend to swap ap25 for ingmar if i get my hands on it

[topaz sage]

Please don’t

It was aids

[bleak sand]

they are both viable for sure but I think the ap is just better than the tar even in long range which feels wrong imo. The AP also destroys defend long range weapons in a gunfight

[bleak sand]

haha i remember that. you could straight up robocop the enemy team

[topaz sage]

The point of the ap is being a good all rounder, given the attackers have a much more limited amount of choice regarding guns, but trust me if you’re fighting an ingmar long range against a good player you are not winning that fight with an ap

Almost 100% of the time

[short summit]

ive killed so many attackers with ingmar, and ingmar also shreds defenders

[midnight pollen]

the double dink is a little bit faster than the AP at max firerate but yes it's really personal preference

[topaz sage]

Also i personally feel the tar is still the better gun despite the nerf, simply because of the higher damage and two tap potential

[midnight pollen]

one two three four is awful it's all about the dink

[topaz sage]

Really it’s just down to who you play against and how long range the maps are, also personal preference

[topaz sage]

The ingmar is nuts

It’s practically a full auto blk tar with higher damage

But that’s the point of it

[worldly nebula]

you're just mad u got headshot on beach

[worldly nebula]

yeah ingmar is super underrated rn

i dont see a lot of ppl taking it

but it's a straight laser

[topaz sage]

I’m mad photon kept shitting on me I had to pull some strings to nerf him

/s lel

[topaz sage]

Probably just new players don’t like it cause of the lower firerate and the fact it’s not very good at short range

[midnight pollen]

one head two body opens the gun way up to being super awesome and not requiring a tricky double dink, super ez kills rn

[topaz sage]

But anything from mid to long the ingmar is rediculous

[midnight pollen]

it's for hallways

[topaz sage]

Fr

[midnight pollen]

if someone has to walk a long distance towards you the best gun to own that lane and make them your bitch is the igmar

[topaz sage]

Or if you’re josh literally any gun kekw

[midnight pollen]

not as hot as the legros over beaches but it's always got food places to use in bank

[topaz sage]

That man could one tap with a shorty from 30 tiles away from his aura alone i swear

[topaz sage]

The leggy is pretty damn good now, only issue is still visibility like most of the defender guns

[midnight pollen]

it's worse than it was before and it's still good, just a matter of perspective

every gun is usable everywhere, but they all match up to places in the map like puzzle pieces where they are advantageous over just an AK

[topaz sage]

I felt that it had a bit too much recoil before, but tbh i didn’t use it enough to tell

[topaz sage]

True, all the guns feel very well balanced now that they don’t flop around kekw

[short summit]

i once had two entrances looking right into eachother in a horse-shoe like form, and i took grubber sg, super shotty and killed 3 of defenders going for the exit across the one i camped

shotguns are awesome and beat the shit out of ap in close range

[topaz sage]

That’s the point, every gun has power positions and playstyles, even more so in defense with the bigger amount of guns

That’s why they all feel so balanced

[bleak sand]

I definitely agree that it should be an all rounder but with every other gun in the game requiring you to manage at least some downside I think its too strong and needs something to bring it in line with the rest

[topaz sage]

The downside is that it’s an all rounder, it’s not perfect for anything, it’s okay at short and mid range, and usable but not ideal at long range, the DL is perfect at short range and awful at everything else, the tar is (usually) bad at short range but dominates mid to long, and the SABR is the long range sniper, awful at everything else but long range

That’s the point, and that’s why there’s so many ap’s

[bleak sand]

but I think you're wrong that it's not ideal at long range because its still just as accurate and it does excel at most fights close range unless there is a shotgun

for example even the gruber has significantly more recoil

[topaz sage]

Again, we go back to what we were saying earlier, try fighting an ingmar that’s positioned well (and that’s being used by a good player) and you will lose that fight even at mid range

[topaz sage]

What 😭😭

The gruber is the gun with the least recoil in the game other than the gat

[severe arch]

this

[bleak sand]

you dont agree that the gruber has more horizontal then the ap?

[topaz sage]

The gruber has no horizontal recoil

Literally

[severe arch]

^^

[bleak sand]

maybe im just dumb and it looks like it has some

[topaz sage]

Go in the training range and shoot at the windows without controlling the recoil with both guns, you’ll see that the ap has both more vertical and significantly more horizontal recoil than both grubers

[topaz sage]

Depends on sens and aspect ratio, but maybe you’re just more comfortable controlling the ap’s recoil

I play on a decently low sens and I struggle with the ap’s horizontal recoil, it’s not really controllable on purpose to not make it a laser beam

[severe arch]

skill issue

but I definitely would agree that the AP-25 does not need a nerf at the moment.

[topaz sage]

Bro i play on 35 fps average after the update cut me some slack 😭😭

[severe arch]

me too bro 😭 how did they lower the fps even more

[topaz sage]

Probably just some optimization stuff with the cosmetics ngl

[severe arch]

perhaps

[topaz sage]

Tbh the game with no sway feels better than before the update even with lower fps so i’ll take it

[severe arch]

trueee

[bleak sand]

fair enough I guess it's an unpopular opinion

[bleak sand]

from the same spot this is what i get with the ap on the left and gruber on the right

so as far as i can tell that is incorrect

[bleak sand]

here it is on the same target

so for the beginning shots the gruber has more horizontal recoil and vertical

[severe arch]

haven't read the whole convo but try spraying the ap and the gruber on those long range targets

on long range the gruber feels so much better

[granite coral]

All attacker guns are working as intended

Sad they nerffed the blk tar but i get it

[bleak sand]

I don't really use the gruber much so my spray isn't as good as it could be but since the first shots of the ap have almost no recoil I couldn't disagree more

[wise wedge]

gruber just feels better, not necessarily a stat thing

[bitter sparrow]

i agree, the ap25 needs to be nerfed, i keep getting beamed from long range by it

[worldly nebula]

skill issue

but also yeah it’s OP

[outer sparrow]

If AP-25 was OP then defenders would be looting it more often. The problem is BlackTar is UP, what it needs I do not know, maybe just give it VH wall pen?

Presently they have mostly equal TTK, but I think the agreed impression is that BLKTR is harder to use, even at range

Maybe LONG ranges make AP harder but those are rare

If we are going to nerf AP, just give it a long burst recoil penalty so as to not affect closer range abilities

[granite coral]

It's working as intended. It's the all around go to weapon for attackers. Nerfing it would take away the power and precision that attackers need to enter. Just like how they have 150hp.

[outer sparrow]

Present attacker performance seems not reliant enough on flashes for my tastes

A nerf would be fine in my eyes, just long range capacity would be no major problem

Though I’d prefer a BLKTR buff instead

[ember moth]

I can't let this blk tar slander continue on any longer. It is such a good and versatile weapon. The only reason I don't use it more is because my newbie teammates I am teaching the game to would never get any kills if I didn't let them use it every so often.

[bleak sand]

Attackers have the blk-tar for range as well as the sabr. having all three be insane at range feels unbalanced and makes brute forcing the rounds with aim instead of tatics too easy. smokes are always an option for long range

[midnight pollen]

no cops are just always the winners at range, working as intended

[hollow void]

defenders got ingmar and mawp aswell as cant be flashed

[midnight pollen]

my statement is too broad but you know whaat i mean

[bleak sand]

Which I think is a strange balance as the ap-25 also wins most close range fights unless theres a shotgun of course

[midnight pollen]

cops have better TTK than you unless you take a specialized gun or otherwise advantage yourself using the map/util/your friends

[mental pagoda]

This is one of the few games where I don't have any complaints about the balance of things and for the most part it rarely feels like an unfair death it's almost always a skill issue on my part. Only gun I really hate using is the nack.