#The Fallen Timeline is the ORIGINAL Timeline, and BotW Zelda caused the Split (TotK Spoilers)

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velvet copper
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Alright, I'm adapting this from a Reddit Draft, so it'll take some moving over. Let's get to it.

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As we all know, the "Fallen Timeline" has been the black Sheep of the Zelda Timeline, and for the most part it's confused countless people why Ocarina of Time specifically is the only game to cause this split.
But what if I were to say that this alternate timeline, the one where Ganon wrecks havock upon the world uncheck and has to be sealed, is the ORIGINAL Timeline of events?

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But not only is it the Original Timeline, but it is TotK that causes the major timeline split.
Spoilers Ahead, you have been warned.

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First, an outline of the Fallen Timeline.
Ignoring the constants, in the fallout of the Imprisoning War, we see the following.
-A Link to the Past.
-The Oracle Duology.
-Links Awakening.
-A Link Between Worlds.
-The Legend of Zelda.
-Adventure of Link.
For the sake of Argument, let's assume that Breath of the Wild takes place here.
Combining the fact that the Tunic of the Wilds is based on the Tunic from the first Legend of Zelda game and that the Three Oracles of Din, Nayru, and Farore only appear in Fallen Timeline games (Eating a Secret Stone turns a mortal into a Immortal Dragon, so Immortal Goddesses eating the Secret Stones wouldn't turn them into Dinral, Naydra, and Farosh, it had to be the Oracles), we'll work off of the assumption that this game is at the end of the fallen timeline.

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Back to business, In BotW, Calamity Ganon awakens after thousands of years and is defeated by the Hero of the Wilds. A few years pass, and it is then revealed in Tears of the Kingdom that relics remain from the ancient "Imprisoning War," an event referred to by name in only one other Zelda Game, A Link to the Past (Another "Fallen Timeline" game.)
Shortly after these comments, Zelda is flung back in time, first becoming the Sage of Time and then an Immortal Dragon after consuming her Secret Stone.
The question of where Zelda ends up is up for debate, but the prevailing theory is sometime after Skyward Sword, but before the Minish Cap, as Hyrule is established by this point.
The theory in question is one that makes everything slot together almost perfectly.

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But, first, a note on the imprisoning war:
A major theme of the Wilds era is misinterpreting Legends/Stories of the past, (The people of BotW's Hyrule thought Calamity Ganon was the first Ganon, when in reality he wasn't, being predated by countless other Ganons and even Ganondorf in TotK,) so it's safe to say that the actual "Imprisioning War" we see in this game is not the same one which occurred in the OoT Timeline Split, but happened far earlier, and is being confused with the timeline split. In other words, Zelda calling the conflict with the Demon King "The Imprisoning War" is her confusing two separate (albeit similar) conflicts across Hyrule's history.
Worth note, the only figure in the past who refers to the conflict as "The Imprisoning War" is Mineru, who calls it that because of Zelda's influence.
Anyway, back to the theory.

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The Linchpin of Ocarina of Time is that Zelda has prophetic dreams which foretell the treachery of Ganondorf, that he seeks power, and that Link needs the Master Sword to stop him.
But what if those dreams didn't happen in the original timeline?
What if the Light Dragon, BotW Zelda, was the one warning OoT Zelda, warning her of the Evil of the Gerudo King?
If Zelda has no dreams, she doesn't involve Link in her ploy to get the Master Sword, Ganondorf gets the three Sacred Gems from the bosses he's sent to collect them, steals the Ocarina from Zelda, and accesses the Sacred Realm with no Hero of Time to face him. The Hero Fails because Zelda doesn't know of the threat coming her way.
We know that Wild Zelda has the ability to communicate Telepathically, both shown in BotW when she reaches out to Link from Hyrule Castle and in TotK when she calls out to Link through time, so it stands to reason that she could indeed Warn OoT Child Zelda of the Treachery of Ganondorf, thus causing the events of the timeline splitting Ocarina of Time, where OoT Zelda causes the other Timeline Split.
These paradoxes are what muddy the water in Breath of the Wild, why you have instances that imply that games across all three timelines happened at some point during the game.
Zelda created a Time Paradox as the Light Dragon, and due to Multiverse theory, Link and his Hyrule is only minimally effected with random paradoxical artifacts like the Ancient Hero Tunics and Weapons like the Dusk Bow and Sea Breeze Boomerang, artifacts that should be exclusive to the child and adult timelines, but appear in BotW and TotK because Zelda affected the timeline.

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In Review, this is the new timeline:
-Skyward Sword.
-Minish Cap.
-Four Swords.
-An Alternate Ocarina of Time where Zelda doesn't gather the Sacred Gemstones with the help of Link, leading to The Imprisoning War.
-A Link to the Past.
-The Oracle Games/Links Awakening.
-A Link Between Worlds.
-The Legend of Zelda.
-Zelda II: The Adventure of Link.
-Breath of the Wild.
-Tears of the Kingdom, where Zelda is sent back to an Era between Skyward Sword and The Minish Cap.
-Ocarina of Time, taking place when the Imprisoning War did, but in the altered course of History due to Light Dragon Zelda.
-The Child/Adult Timelines as they're known.
-Breath of the Wild and Tears of the Kingdom at the very end feeling the ripple of Zelda's paradoxical actions causing relics from the other two eras to appear in this timeline.

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This is why it seems like Breath of the Wild can be "at the end of all the timelines," because the events of it's sequel directly caused the branching Timeline.

long eagle
velvet copper
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I thought it was just the Successors who said it, but that could also be Zelda influencing the naming to them, since she directly told them about the other pieces.

long eagle
velvet copper
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-Zelda communicates to Link in Draconic Form/Visions we see at points like when she gives you Recall and when you pull the Master Sword. While it's mostly buried, it's still in there.
-Ganondorf had already sent his bosses to the three gemstones, so pulling the sword would be his only hurdle. He could easily get Link to pull the Sword, but without Zelda's knowledge on the matter, Link has no Ocarina to go back and forth between the two locations.

long eagle
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Well, she doesn't really communicate when giving you Recall

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And I don't remember if she talks when you get the MS

velvet copper
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There's another memory-esque dream sequence, which is in line with the "Visions" Zelda has in her own time as the Dreams about Link and the dark cloud.

uneven viper
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@velvet copper I love the effort you’ve put into this post. I got a super reaction on this. I think these theories are well crafted, and we don’t see this that often.

I will say, I’ve also entertained the idea of an alternate OoT, or timeline. However, this placement is a little iffy for me since I’ve never personally played many of the games in the DT. However, I’ve recently learned that there’s an “Era of Chaos” right in between SS and ToTK’s ancient past. Which I’ve used to justify why the history of the Triforce is forgotten and replaced with Sacred Stones instead. I wondered why Ganondorf’s motives changed in this saga.

Some say the Triforce was placed in the sacred realm and therefore forgotten about. However, some people don’t know what the sacred realm is.
Back to what I’m saying, the Triforce missing is a massive difference and was a fundamental instrument for how events originally played out.

It’s almost as if somebody changed history right before OoT, knowing what destruction it would cause upon Hyrule. What are your thoughts?
I’m adding that to your theory that the Triforce missing is a massive difference.

velvet copper
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It could be argued that since the Triforce is the power of Din, Nayru, and Farore harnessed into a "Gift" for the Hylians, the gift has manifested itself in the BotW Timeline as the Trio of Dragons.
SS Link recieves the Triforce from the flames of the dragons Faron, Eldin, and Lanayru, so the Triforce has been embodied by Dragons before.

long eagle
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Oh no

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SS Link doesn't receive the Triforce from the flames

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The Triforce is hidden away in the statue of the Goddess in Skyloft

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The flames just forge the sword and prove his courage, wisdom and strength

velvet copper
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Ah, my bad. Memory's rusty on that. (It's tied to learning the Songs of the Goddesses, right?)

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In any case, there's also a branch of this theory I had where Minish Cap wasn't in the Original timeline, but legends of the Sage who sought to restore the Holy Blade Inspired them to create the Four Sword, but that seemed too muddy to incorperate.

long eagle
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To get the Triforce in SS, you gotta enter the Statue and find each piece inside the rooms, solving the puzzles in there

velvet copper
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I was confusing the Mark of the Triforce with the actual Triforce, my bad.

long eagle
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Yeah

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Understandable

velvet copper
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The mark glows on his hand whenever he enhances the flame.

long eagle
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Yep

velvet copper
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Crack Theory: Zelda as the Light Dragon caused the Extinction of the Rito during the OoT Timelines.

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They are the hardest to pin down in all of this.

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By Baseline TotK logic, the Rito exist in the era of founding, Die out by Minish Cap/Ocarina of Time, resurge in prominence when they evolve from the Zora in the Adult Timeline, while in the Child Timeline they Crossbreed with the Zonai or something and create the Occa.

long eagle
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Someone suggested that Rito was just a term for any Anthro-Bird species and that the Rito from BotW aren't the same specie as the Rito from TWW, and it kinda makes sense
They look really different, both in their culture, looks and how they grow up

velvet copper
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Fair.
It would also support the Fallen Timeline BotW theory, with that timeline being the only one which lacks it's form of Rito.

long eagle
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I don't think the Oocca can be considered a form of Rito x)

velvet copper
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It's the mistake you get when mixing them with Zonai lol.

opaque fern
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Zonai = the sky beings known as the Oocca

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Reasons why the Zonai are the Oocca:

  1. Both are considered a sky race.
  2. Highly advanced civilizations built on magical prowess.
  3. Founded the kingdom of Hyrule and built it up.
  4. Built the Temple of Time.
  5. Mysterious races that vanished from the surface a long time ago.
  6. Left the ruling of Hyrule to the Hylians.
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So you either need all of these things to happen more than once, or they're in fact the same. Thanks for coming to my TED Talk.

long eagle
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Both Temple of Time are vastly different (and are seen coexisting with one another)
And what are the magical prowesses of the Oocca ? The dominion rod I guess ? But that's kinda it, their city floats with giant propellers, not magic
Also they look extremely different from one another

opaque fern
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Ooccoo needed a spell to imbue power within the Dominion Rod again, but forgot the words.

long eagle
opaque fern
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Call it an educated guess. They're not spinning fast enough to achieve propulsion.

long eagle
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Well of course, but a lot of stuff in the Zelda franchise isn't 100% accurate to how it should work

uneven viper
# opaque fern Zonai = the sky beings known as the Oocca

I thought the Zonai could have been related to the technology we saw in SS, down in the Lanayru province.
I forgot what they were called, but imo, they share more similarities here than the Occoa

The Occoa also use mechanical means to have their sky islands hover. By use of massive fans. You could say this is a hint to Zonai technology but the Zonai have sky islands that naturally float like in SS.

opaque fern
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The book Shad has is a spell book, and the sky writing Link finds is a spell.

long eagle
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Like Skyloft not having nearly enough people and houses to be believable
Or recently Hyrule Castle standing on one very thin pillar

opaque fern
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Also, none of you seem to consider artistic license.

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Or that concepts get changed as they revisit them.

uneven viper
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I don’t remember the Zonai being that great with spellwork.

long eagle
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I get that, but changing from "the weirdly alien-like city inhabited by Cucco-Hylian helpless hybrids floats in the sky through the means of propellers" to "this chunk of land with wooden and stone structures inhabited by stone golems and Goat-Hylian overpowered hybrids floats in the sky through the use of magic" is a huge revisit of an idea, if not a completely different one

uneven viper
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They seem to be more closely related to the Shiekah in terms of what themes they share.
Like the shrines or light that are scattered across the land of Hyrule, or even the ancient power source the Shiekah was said to have utilized from underneath the Castle, and was said to power all of their technology.

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Not to say they are one and the same, but that they share a close relationship.
The Zonai are also somewhat divine, like Gods. Only a few remained in Hyrule, and the Hero decipted on the transcript 10,000 years ago may have been the last of his kind after Sonia passed, and Rauru sacrificed himself.

velvet copper
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I think it's more likely that the Zonai became the Picori.
Both are "Beings that descended from the Sky" and "Gifted the People with their magic" (The Four Sword/Secret Stones), and the ears are similar.
It would explain where all the Zonai went.
They didn't die out, they just shrunk down to hide.

long eagle
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I think the Zonai simply went extinct

velvet copper
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Come on now, they're not the Mogma.

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Them, yeah they gone 100%.

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Back to a more serious point, in reference to the Missing Triforce from a lot of Fallen Timeline games, the Master Sword is also absent from all Fallen Timeline games except for the Link to the Past/Link Between Worlds Duology.

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If the Light Dragon existed in the original run of that timeline, the Hero of Hyrule (what the OG and Zelda II Link is called) would've probably found that blade to kill Ganon if the real Master Sword is out of commission.

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In a timeline with 2 Master Swords, why would that Hero not claim one of them?

long eagle
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because the devs didn't invent it yet

velvet copper
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That's the cheating answer lol.

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You can say that about a lot of things.

uneven viper
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It’s also more likely the Zonai are just their own race as a whole. They share their own unique theme, and maybe we should stop trying to link them to previous races in the Zelda Universe.

velvet copper
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"Glorious race that descended from the sky" is just a trope at this point.

uneven viper
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Yeah, that one sentence could connect to various races that have existed in the Zelda universe.

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Connecting them to another race also raises more questions about the timeline placement

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The Oocca for example, would’ve questionably put it in the Child.

opaque fern
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Not really

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The Oocca founded Hyrule, long before the timeline split.

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We just happen to see them in a Child timeline game.

opaque fern
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I apply Occam's razor to the Zonai and the Oocca. The points in common between them far outweigh any of the differences, which primarily relate to their physical appearance. You're free to disagree with my points, but I believe I've proven myself a capable and reliable source of lore and facts over the years, and my theories are rooted in those; they're built around them. So I'm fairly confident in my theory being sound and reasonable.

long eagle
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You did prove yourself ove the years and I respect you for your dedication to the series, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't challenge your ideas and take them at face value

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Some of your points are indeed interesting, especially the 2 ones about the fundation and ruling of Hyrule

opaque fern
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Asking questions for clarity, or presenting a counter argument with facts is certainly encouraged. But flat out denying a theory because you don't personally agree with it or its merits isn't productive, IMO.

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I'm not saying that's what's happened, either; just making a statement.

long eagle
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What are the exact quotes on the Oocca about the fondation of Hyrule again ?

opaque fern
# long eagle Some of your points are indeed interesting, especially the 2 ones about the fund...

SHAD:
JP: ボクが今、一番　興味を持っているのは天空人の伝説さ
T: “Right now, the number one interest I have is with the legendary Sky People.”
EN: (At the moment I'm absolutely entranced by the sky beings known as the Oocca.)

ハイラルは最も神に近い種族のハイリア人が創ったってのが通説だけど
“It is commonly believed that Hyrule was built by the Hylians, who are the closest race to the gods.”
(Yes, according to legend, Hyrule was made by the Hylians, who, as we all know, are the closest race to the gods.)

実は大昔には、ハイリア人よりもっと神に近い種族がいて、彼らが創ったという説もあるんだ
“But there's a theory that, a long time ago, there was a race even closer to the gods than the Hylians — and that they built it!”
(But also according to legend, long ago there was a race even closer to the gods, and some say THESE creatures made the Hylians.)

そして彼らは、ハイリア人の誕生とともに新しい都を創り、都ごと天に浮かべてそこで暮らし始めたらしい
“And then, with the formation of the Hylians, they built a new city which they floated into the sky, and began to live there.”
(When they created the people of Hylia, they simultaneously created a new capital, a city that floated in the heavens.)

しかも学者の間では、今でも彼らは大空の何処かに浮かぶ都で生きているって言われてる
“Not only that; among us scholars, some say that they still live there… In their floating city somewhere in the great sky.”
(They dwelt there...and some scholars believe that this race lives there still, somewhere in the great sky.)

天空人・・・素敵だよね是非、お会いしてみたいよ
“Sky people… Isn’t that absolutely fantastic? I’d very much like to meet them!”
(Sky beings... Isn't that simply marvelous, old boy? What I wouldn't give to meet them!)

RUSL:
ハイリア人の祖先によって造られた　その神殿には、今もなお　古代の優れた文明が遺されているらしい
“That temple was built by the ancestors of the Hylians. It seems that, even now, the superior civilization of ancient times still remains.”
(The ancestors of the Hylians created the temple... Signs of their civilization--ancient, but very sophisticated--are everywhere.)

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I knew you'd ask, I was just grabbing them.

long eagle
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Great anticipation

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Hmm

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Just to be sure, the japanese version doesn't imply that the Oocca created the Hylians, right ? That's just a thing the english version added

opaque fern
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Correct

long eagle
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Ok

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It's not a perfect match with the story we're told in TotK

opaque fern
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The Japanese version says they made Hyrule, as in, the nation; the previous sentence asserts that it's commonly believed that the Hylians did this.

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Princess Zelda (The Legend of Zelda: Tears of the Kingdom):
*私の祖先 ハイラル王家の祖は・・・
"My ancestors, the ancestor of the Hyrulean royal family…”

天より降臨せし 神の一族と結ばれ 生まれてといわれています
“It's said that they were born from a union with the God's clan, who descended from the heavens.”

この壁画を信じるなら 天より降臨せし一族とは ゾナウ族・・・
“If this mural is to be believed, then the clan who descended from the heavens are the Zonai tribe…"

その一族と大地のハイリア人が交わり やがて興った国が・・・
“This clan and the Hylians of the land intermingled and soon after established the nation of…”

ハイラル王国・・・
“The kingdom of Hyrule…”*

Mineru (The Legend of Zelda: Tears of the Kingdom):
*遥かな過去・・・ 神の末裔ゾナウ族は 大いなる叡智と共に 天より地上へと降臨しました・・・
“In the distant past… the Zonai, the descendants of gods, came down from the heavens to the surface with their great wisdom…”

神の遺産・・・持つ者の力を倍加させる秘宝 秘石を携えて・・・
“The legacy of the gods... a hidden treasure that amplifies the power of its bearer. Bearing a secret stone…”

私の弟ラウルは ゾナウの術を以って 民を導き そこで出会った地上の娘 ソニアと結ばれました
“My brother, Rauru, guided the people with the arts of the Zonai. It was sometime later that he met the surface woman, Sonia, and the two of them wed.”

ラウルはソニアに一つの秘石を贈り・・・ そして二人は 大地に国を興しました
“Rauru gave Sonia a secret stone… And, together, the couple established a nation in this land.”*

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I see it as a clarification.

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The information provided by Shad was legend; a "he said, she said" sort of affair. Zelda also has a bit of this in TotK, but Mineru was a first hand witness.

long eagle
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The Zonai are indeed said to be closer to the Gods
But Rauru and Mineru (and them alone) descended from the sky and founded Hyrule with the Hylians
Whereas the Oocca are said to have been living on the surface (supposedly in a large group, maybe all of them), created the kingdom then later left it to the Hylians and then moved to the skies

opaque fern
long eagle
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Hmm, true

opaque fern
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Even Ganondorf has this to say (although he wouldn't be the most reliable narrator, granted).
*ゾナウ族がその昔 天から降臨された姿はまさに神のようであったとか
“The Zonai were said to have appeared like gods when they descended from the heavens so long ago.”

その末裔であらせられる陛下が いまはハイラルの一族の娘を娶り…
“As their descendant, Your Majesty has now taken a daughter of a clan of Hyrule as his wife…”

お見事…
“Most impressive…”

しかし かくも高潔なゾナウ族が あとは 陛下と姉君を残して滅びゆくのみとは…
“But how could the Zonai, such a noble people, perish, leaving behind only Your Majesty and your sister…?”

誠に残念でございますな……
“It is most unfortunate……”*

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But it's definitely a piece of the puzzle, so we have it.

long eagle
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I wonder
Since they descended from somewhere, how was this somewhere floating ? We know the Zonai (especially Mineru) can make things float somehow, but that would imply the land they lived on before descending from the heavens wasn't floating at the beginning, and that at some point they themselves started as surface dwellers

opaque fern
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I have a solution

long eagle
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But that's getting away from the topic

opaque fern
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Check the description for "Hover Stone" in your Zonai devices menu.

long eagle
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Yeah

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Wait no I'm thinking of another description

opaque fern
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A Zonai device that can defy gravity and hang in place. Ages ago, the Zonai may have used this technology to create islands that float in the sky.

long eagle
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The description of the device that keep things straight up also hints at something like that iirc

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Don't know the english name of said device

opaque fern
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There are also, well, what appear to be cores of green stone; some of which glow like the Hover Stones when activated.

long eagle
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I don't remember the Temple of Time having one

opaque fern
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Most that I've seen do, but not all of them are exposed, either.

long eagle
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Which is specifically pointed out as exceptionnal in the hyrulean slates side quest

opaque fern
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The Temple, the monument islands... those were certainly raised post-Imprisoning War.

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But the rest, well, they seem to have been up there for a long time. The diving ceremony islands, for instance, were used by coming-of-age Zonai.

long eagle
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By monuments you mean the old hyrulean ones right ?

opaque fern
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Yes.

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The ones written by the chamberlain.

long eagle
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Right

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So the older islands would predate the descending on the surface of the Zonai, right ?

opaque fern
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Stabilizer

A perfectly balanced Zonai device that stands
upright when activated. It was used to secure
footholds in unstable places, such as sky
islands.

opaque fern
long eagle
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And the entire sky island of the Temple of Time would be right after the Imprisoning War

opaque fern
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Here's a neat one:

Hydrant

A Zonai device that gushes water when
struck. According to legend, sky islands saw
water shortages long ago but became lush
and fertile thanks to this technology.

long eagle
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Amazing device that literally generates matter x)

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Or canalizes the O2 in the air into a stream of water

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But it's less funny to think of it that way

opaque fern
long eagle
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Anyway, there's a real difference in architecture between most sky structures (actually, all of them except the labyrinths) and the land structures
The Temple of Time, which was seemingly built on the surface after the descent and later sent up to the skies by Mineru before dying as the last Zonai, shares the same general theme as the other Zonai sky structures
While the land structures + the sky labyrinths are all way more tribal-looking. I was thinking they could have been built by the hylians after the death of Mineru, but then the presence of the labyrinth in the sky makes no sense

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Why does it seems like they devolved between their sky and land structures ?

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Sorry I'm kinda going in every direction instead of focussing on the base topic

opaque fern
long eagle
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It's 5:38, I'mma go sleep for now x)
Cya

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(I loved it that Rauru appeared in various places like that at the beginning, just chilling)

opaque fern
opaque fern
velvet copper
# opaque fern Even Ganondorf has this to say (although he wouldn't be the most reliable narrat...

There's a line in the translated version that's iffy though.

“But how could the Zonai, such a noble people, perish, leaving behind only Your Majesty and your sister…?”
This implies all the Zonai have died out by this point except for Rauru and Mineru, and with both of them dying during the Imprisoning War (Mineru's Physical Form succumbs to her Gloom Poisoning due to the conflict,) there are no Zonai left after the conflict.
The Zonai can't become the Oocca if they're already dead.
The Oocca could've inherited Zonai technology, like the Dominion Rod to control robots (ala Constructs,) but if Rauru and Mineru are the last of the Zonai, then they can't become the Oocca.

opaque fern
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⚠️ The shrine completion reward, ||Ancient Hero's Aspect|| has Zonai elements, and is meant to depict the ||Hero who fought against Calamity Ganon 10,000 years ago; the one seen on the Sheikah's Calamity tapestry in Kakariko Village.||

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The Sheikah themselves have been considered extinct (perished) multiple times throughout Hyrule's history, yet they continue to bounce back and reappear. Even during OOT, Impa was viewed as a legend; a topic of discussion among the townsfolk, since it was believed that she was the last surviving member of the tribe.

uneven viper
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@velvet copper left the server 💀

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Also, maybe rephrase that as, “all shrines completion reward”

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I dunno, you don’t exactly need too, but it’s bugging me a little.

split glade
uneven viper
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Random asf.

split glade
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But true

uneven viper
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Very. He did just join

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It’s a shame, I love seeing the theorists.

split glade
uneven viper
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That’s kinda the point though.

long eagle
uneven viper
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just in case it wasn’t already known those four holes on the plateau are the same locations for the four OG shrines in Botw.

split glade
long eagle
long eagle
opaque fern
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Penn is a Rito, yet he's a pelican while the majority of the others resemble osprey. Kass was a macaw, and the elder Kaneli is an owl.

Muzu's head is manta ray shaped, Yona's is ray/skate shaped, Dorephan is whale shaped, Sidon is hammerhead shark shaped, yet the rest seem to be dolphin/shark shaped.

Variation exists within each race we see. I'm sure the animalistic, mammalian Zonai were the same.

split glade
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but this is the nightmare of every biologist

long eagle
spring crystal
uneven viper
spring crystal
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They WERE on skyloft, NOW they’re on the surface. They went down at some point.

uneven viper
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Ah right, that would confirm who the Zonai met when they descended, which could later confirm it was after SS.

velvet copper
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I mainly left because I had a summer class for college and I was procrastinating actual work in here, so I left so I could focus on that. Now that the class is over, I'm back.