Y-DNA and mtDNA

[drifting lava]

How much stock should I put into this Y-dna match? This is the only “close” match and the only one with the same haplogroup. The time predictor estimates 950 CE - 1950 CE with the rounded average at 1600 CE. However, a lot of my more distant Y-dna matches show the same 950-1950/1600 timeline.

[dark osprey]

better not to take any y-12 matches seriously
Even people with vastly different haplogroups get 0 distance matches at the y-12 level
Which haplogroups do you and your match have right now?

[drifting lava]

My match and I are both R-FT273581 and we have 9 out of 600 differences between our Big Y-700 tests

[dark osprey]

definitely check out the TMRCA predictor for the y-111 STR differences then

Better yet, if you received your big Y results just recently, then there is a very good chance you will get another more recent haplogroup placement within a few weeks
That would offer a more accurate picture than any STR based predictions

However if you (or your match) have had your/his big Y completed a long time ago, then R-FT273581 (352 CE) is as far as you can get for now (until a new close match tests)

[drifting lava]

My results were posted in October 2023 but I’ve had the same 15 matches since that day. Below is my closest match

[dark osprey]

if your closest y-111 match has already completed his big Y then there's no need in checking your y-111 distance with him

[drifting lava]

Gotcha, thank you!

[somber hedge]

You are related to this match, but perhaps not within a genealogical timeframe/the surname era.

It is however possible that you share a common ancestor with them as late as the 12th century, and there is always a margin of error. As more test takers "test in" to your grouping, your TMRCA will be refined further and could change drastically.

If you simply wait for more testers, in a few years you will probably see a change. If you're impatient, you could track down distant relatives that you think you might be related to within a genealogical timeframe, reach out via email and ask them to test.

You could ask individuals you match with at a lower marker level to upgrade, you could find autosomal matches with a shared surname on other services and ask them to test with FTDNA, or you could simply reach out to individuals that descend from a common patrilineal ancestor on paper, like on WikiTree or FamilySearch trees

[dim mesa]

Just confirmed the biological parents of my 3rd great grandmother (who was born an orphan!) with mtdna!!!

Now I’m working on getting her sister’s baptism to trace her parents’ family tree

Apparently her parents recognized her as their child later in life

And she just never changed her name

I found out from a will written in 1909 👀

[ashen whale]

Congrats!

I really need to find someone to test their Y DNA at my family line where I also know that they were orphans, two brothers.

[drifting lava]

A larger pool is always better! I still have the same 15 somewhat-distant matches from October 2023

[drifting lava]

Did some digging and noticed that two of my matches both descend from the same ancestor: William Fleming. One match is a match at Y-67 (they only did up to Y-67), and the other match did Y-700 with 9 differences over 600.

I have a third Fleming match that is an exact match at Y-111 (they only did Y-111 test) but they did not list any earliest known paternal ancestor.

My closest non-Fleming matches are only exact matches at Y-37

[regal abyss]

Yoo guys

primarily exhibits East Asian paternal ancestry, particularly haplogroups O3-M122 and Q-MEH2. Maternally, they display a mixture of West Eurasian and South Asian lineages, suggesting assimilation with local populations. This contrasts with other Pashtun groups, which generally show more diverse and broader ancestry patterns.

Can someone explain this

Who I really am I don't understand

My people think that we are pashtuns

[drowsy crag]

You presumably still are pashtun? A haplogroup is from only one line in your ancestry, someone a thousand years ago or whatever on your direct paternal line being from another ethnic group a long time ago doesn't invalidate the rest of your family being pashtun.

[regal abyss]

It's in 80% of my tribal members same haplogroups

[naive shard]

Y-DNA % of small endogamous communities might not match well to overall ancestry

you should focus on autosomal DNA

[regal abyss]

Oh

[naive shard]

your tribe probably has medieval founder effects on the paternal line from central asia or something like that, given you speak of O and Q. turks/mongols etc. but that doesn't mean that your autosomal DNA would have the same % from central asia as it looks from Y-DNA. its like how in sub-saharan africa there are some places (tribes) with 90% R1b haplogroup, but they have no noticeable ancestry from europe, even thats where the haplogroup came from

[warm rain]

To add on to @naive shard, endogamy makes it easy for just a couple Y-DNA clades to predominate, but Y-DNA is just a small part of your whole ancestry as it encompasses just the patriline (i.e., unbroken line of male ancestors)

Plus, the Pashtun ethnogensis encompassed a huge diversity of groups, including Turks & Mongols

[tulip terrace]

@drowsy crag is there any other ways to figure out a more recent haplogroup just from going through my matches or is buying the test the only option?

[drowsy crag]

You can go through your matches on ftdna and check for who has haplos and descends paternally or maternally from your ancestor!

I've found some of this from various ancestors' descendants

One of my azorean lines someone took a big y for 👀

[drifting lava]

I wish my Y-dna matches all put their earliest known paternal ancestor in their profiles since I have three Brown Y-dna matches. And with autosomal clustering it’s becoming increasingly clear Charles Lockwood Ellis or his wife (“Eliza Ellis”) are descended from William Brown (1768-1846) and Zelpha Fuller (1770-1845).

I’ll message those matches later today to see if any reply.

This couple had sons and daughters. So they could be Charles’ paternal OR maternal grandparents. And they could be Eliza’s paternal or maternal grandparents.

[winter juniper]

⚜️ On the new MitoTree at https://discover.familytreedna.com/mtdna/X2b7b/classic we see they've adopted YFull MTree's branch name X2b7b and also found two branches, X2b7b1 defined by A10018G and X2b7b2 defined by T12879C, among many FamilyTreeDNA customers. 14 are in X2b7b1 and 11 are in X2b7b2 and they selected the flags of Canada and France to represent their maternal lineages. Here's the coolest part: the suggested branch formation dates can't be correct because the base level X2b7b as well as both of its branches are found among descendants of one person -- the 17th-century French woman Barbe Bajolet, daughter of Jeanne Baudinet -- in the Acadia Metis Mothers project's public mtDNA results page https://www.familytreedna.com/public/AcadiaMetisMothers?iframe=mtresults 🇨🇦 🇫🇷

MitoTree suggested that the branches could have been formed around 1100 C.E. and 1000 C.E. respectively.

and their 95% probability only got as recent as 1335 C.E. but Barbe was born around 1608.

and the branches obviously weren't founded by Barbe herself but by two of her descendants.

[drowsy crag]

Huh, the 1100 one is even at 99% only at 1429

Interesting 👀

[drifting lava]

Is there any tool to analyze a full Y-700 match? I have my full 700 version and my closest match on familytreedna also has their kit fully posted on their surname project

[sick sinew]

A relative of mine, a direct paternal descendant of a brickwall, did a BIG Y-700 test and got the haplogroup I-Y84928. He's my only match with that haplogroup (at least on FTDNA).

Is there an easy way to tell how I-Y84928 would show up on less detailed tests? Is it simply a question of going on https://discover.familytreedna.com/y-dna/I-Y84928/story and repeatedly clicking on the ancestor it branches off from until you have something?

I did that a couple of times and got to I-Y4197, the haplogroup of four matches (9-16 cM) who'd taken a Y-DNA37 test. What are the odds this is a meaningful lead?

[drowsy crag]

Click on the list looking button on the left, if you're counting up from the bottom it's #6

But are the 4 matches sharing the same segment as each other with you? Might just be a weird coincidence that they share an ancestor of that haplo. Also, do they share the same paternal ancestor? Might be another indicator for this instead of against.

[sick sinew]

"match time tree"? Looks like you need to have taken a test yourself to have access.

I should clarify I haven't yet spoken to this relative, although I definitely will at some point.

[drowsy crag]

You're getting a suspiciously 7 shaped 6 there 🤣

(I'm counting the info button on the bottom as #1 for clarity)

But yeah the ancestral path thing shows you every change of the haplogroup

[sick sinew]

Oh I see, thanks

That's the tree I used before (although I got it by manually clicking back as I said).

I missed something very obvious about the I-Y4197 matches I have - none of them share a surname

Pierson could derive from the same root as Perry, but it's unlikely. It does say I-Y4197 is over 2000 years old, so odds are we're related through someone else.

[drowsy crag]

Yeah, it's likely unrelated, but was why I asked if the segment each shares with you overlaps or not

[sick sinew]

I think you need to pay an extra fee to see that on FTDNA (I tested with ancestry).

Thanks anyway. Presumably my closer relative has done quite a bit of genealogy research themselves if they were willing to pay £400+ for a Y-dna test, who knows what they found.

[drowsy crag]

OH yeah you do annoyingly

(I forgot sorry)

[tired wedge]

@drowsy crag what would you suggest I do here lol?

I don't know of anyone having taken a mt test

(this is kinda about my broader brickwall, so I figured we can move it out of there so they can keep on the original topic lol)

[drowsy crag]

I mean, if you donate the money to afford trying an mt test it'd certainly help some!

Just I would also worry about not having any useful matches 😭

[tired wedge]

wym donate the money

[drowsy crag]

...I hate autocorrect

[tired wedge]

This is my own maternal line it'd be me testing 🤣

[drowsy crag]

*do have 😭

[tired wedge]

oh

I thought you were trying to describe me paying for someone else to test

[drowsy crag]

Autocorrect is the bane of my existence sorry

[tired wedge]

I mean the cost depends on the test though, no?

And I do worry about what utility I'd really get out of it with a cheaper test

I mean, I think you have some experience with it? What have you gotten out of mt testing

[drifting lava]

I would think mtDNA would have a larger pool of matches since it’s passed from mother->child? Sure it dead-ends with men but that’s better than Y-dna

[tired wedge]

Well my understanding is that Y DNA mutates a lot faster

My 5th great grandparents don't have a marriage record I've ever found (but were married mid 1850s), her maiden name isn't known, and despite her first name being uncommon (actually just weird frankly) I haven't found anyone who could possibly be her in the 1850 census

[drifting lava]

Do you know their religion and town they were married in? Sometimes there’s 19th century church records but often you’ll have to contact them.

[tired wedge]

I think Dyer county Tennessee and I strongly doubt they were married in the kind of church that keeps records if they were even married in a church at all

[drowsy crag]

I mean yeah it's about the same as a y 37, just (ime) a bit less commonly taken and slightly less genealogically viable than the y.
For my experience at least it's helped me confirm my research on direct maternal is right, and given me 3 lines from close matches to look into, but didn't yet break my brick wall.
(I could also try looking into a 4th match, of distance 1 who is also Azorean, to be fair, but her maternal line is from a different island than mine, even if most of the early settlers of São Miguel are from her island of Santa Maria.)

I am also suspicious of the age it gives the haplo given I suspect it's notably younger given all of my distance zero matches are Azorean from the same island and area of the island except for one, and that one has a surname on his direct maternal line brick wall (Brazilian) that on said island I associate with that area anyway.)

The haplo is just me and my distance zero and 1 matches 😂

[tired wedge]

What age does it give?

[drowsy crag]

(The distance 1s are all azorean, a Brazilian with no tree, a Puerto Rican with a Cuban mother, and a Cuban with a Galician mother. The Cuban line is probably a canary islander and thus also goes back to Azores)

[tired wedge]

Am I liable to match half of Appalachia

[drowsy crag]

This, which makes it a lot better for tracing dna!
But also that more people take ys than mts

[drowsy crag]

Ca 2k years ago which uhhhh. Let's just say the azores gives my Mexicans a run for their money for endogamy, so I suspect all of the matches of distance zero have an MRCA in the 1450-1650 region. Distance 1 ehhhhh idk and that might be where the 2000 years ago bit comes in

But my distance zero matches are this:

1. Shares maternal line in late 1700s
2. Brazilian with brick wall in northeast in 1700s
3. Someone whose maternal line ends one (1) parish over from mine in the same time period as mine, who also is probably the sister of the direct maternal ancestor of an hvr1 and hvr2 match

[tired wedge]

oh well 3 is helpful!

to be fair, I think I need to do more work with my autosomal matches to exhaust everything first

[drowsy crag]

Yeah! 2 probably is also if I can get them out of Ceará or Pernambuco

[tired wedge]

2 years ago I thought I'd need a Y DNA test to figure out my Johnson and that turned out to be just me having no idea what I was thinking

[drowsy crag]

Distantly? Probably 😭
I have a shitton of distance 2 and 3 matches that are just fucking everywhere bc my mt haplo is a descendant of H1 😭

(Most common mt haplo in Europe)

[tired wedge]

Would the haplogroup itself maybe help determine Europe or Africa

[drowsy crag]

Close? Eh probably not unless unlucky

[drowsy crag]

Oh definitely! If it's like L something then presumably sub saharan Africa at some point yeah

@dim mesa related question but for your or whichever relative took an mt test with a haplogroup L, do you have a lot of matches for it (close or distant) in the usa?

[tired wedge]

👀

[drowsy crag]

Was like L3 or something

[tired wedge]

God I love searching for this brickwall's first name only in Tennessee on the 1850 census and getting an astonishing 0 🤩 results

[drowsy crag]

I've considered tracking down direct descendants of my 1x's sisters to help with the direct maternal brick wall of his

[dim mesa]

most of my relatives are haplo L, but the L3 specifically was my father

he got L3e2a1b

his only other match is a cuban from the same town as him

i broke through that brickwall recently actually!!!

[tired wedge]

interesting

[drowsy crag]

I don't even have a tribe for her she is just. "Idk she's born in Los Adaes and indigenous" to the spanish 😭

[drowsy crag]

Wait, not even distance 2 or 3???

Weird

[dim mesa]

my dads great great grandmother was an orphan named mercedes. thanks to a will i discovered that her biological parents were quirino del junco and cecilia hernandez

[dim mesa]

it was an exact match! distance of 0

[drowsy crag]

Oh I meant as in you have no distance 2 or 3 matches

But yay to close match helping

[dim mesa]

yea he has none

its just the one match

in my case i have a few lol

my haplo is l2a1n1. since my great great grandmother was a black woman born to a nigerian mother, i have several american matches at a distance of 2-3

with autosomal matches i determined that i am a matrilineal descendant of the igbo tribe

but i am an odd case

[drowsy crag]

(Anyway for Anna: thjs is also why mtdna can be a crapshoot😭)

[dim mesa]

because i was able to test my great grandmother

and she has several 25-30 cm matches all from the same towns in nigeria

specifically abagana and nimo

so my family was most likely from there

and these are all predominantly igbo towns

so therefore... i am most likely of igbo descent

[dim mesa]

yea its really random, you either get lucky with close matches or you get nothing out of it lol

[tired wedge]

I have no idea what is going on

but yeah I got that lol

[dim mesa]

lol

[tired wedge]

Ill probably kick it down the road then

[dim mesa]

basically my female line is l2 and my dads is l3

he got a close match and i got more distant ones

[drowsy crag]

Yeah very fair. It's not the easiest thing to work with compared to a y, too, bc it mutates so. Glacially. Slowly.

[tired wedge]

It's just insane that someone named Lucassa is this hard to find

[drowsy crag]

(I do agree with what you said a min ago though that you should try doing some more stuff with autosomal first bc might help on that branch bc early tn is very )

[tired wedge]

I have some big clusters that I literally can't place whatsoever

I gave up a hot minute ago on the one

[drifting lava]

Is one of them the Davis NPE?

[tired wedge]

Haha nooo that's also via this great-grandmother but that one is thankfully a lot easier to work with

I have that one ruled down to a set of brothers

[drifting lava]

Hopefully you have more success with mtdna! So far the only breakthrough I’ve had with ydna is coupling it with autosomal clustering to determine that I am probably not a biological Ellis pre-1841

[tired wedge]

Well my surname isn't mine biologically either even though we went into genealogy already knowing that

[tired wedge]

Oh man the biggest match from this cluster just passed away in March :(

[shadow portal]

Y DNA doesn't mutate a lot faster than mtDNA - 16569 bp vs 59 million bp just makes it seem that way 🙂

[deft mirage]

My Dad's Y-DNA results are in!

[jade tangle]

Did you do big Y?

[deft mirage]

Y-111

[jade tangle]

I’m still waiting so I was going to query you about wait times. At least his initial / non big Y stuff came in

Any surprises so far?

[deft mirage]

I ordered mine just after RootsTech on the offer they had. Still waiting on the mtDNA results I ordered in the same package

[deft mirage]

Not yet but I don't have time for much more than a quick view today

[dim arrow]

Not sure if you saw my post yesterday, but I got my Big Y results yesterday after they received my sample on 1/15/25

[dim arrow]

I'm learning a bit more about the test I got 😅

This means you’ll only receive a partial haplogroup from an autosomal test. Most customers can expect this haplogroup to have originated in the Metal Age (about 10,000 years ago). Comparatively, a predicted, broad haplogroup from a Y-STR test like the Y-37 or Y-111 will typically have originated in the Stone Age (about 100,000 years ago), and a haplogroup from the Big Y-700 will typically have originated in the Middle Ages or in the Modern Age (about 1,000 to 500 years ago)—within genealogical times.

The latest haplogroup I've been assigned originates in ~50 CE. Why might it be that early, instead of the 1,000-1,500 CE range the FTDNA blog indicates?

Blog link here fwiw

[dim arrow]

Perhaps this is a coincidence, but doing research on this line - both via records and via genetics - is strained. I have a hard time tracking them down in available records, and there's hardly evidence of them in my autosomal matches. And now this is telling me that there aren't enough Big Y test-takers to give me a more recent haplogroup.

Is it possible that this line historically has been thin, so there aren't many modern descendents?

In fact, the haplogroup story page says as much. I have one match in my haplogroup, and one other match further up the tree

[ashen whale]

Someone has to be one of the first, so that a new line can be discovered.

[dim arrow]

https://tenor.com/view/kitty-kitten-annoyed-irritated-tantrum-gif-13045775

I don't wanna be a trailblazer

Is it possible that DNA testing is just not popular among the areas where my would-be matches live? We're talking about Slovakia, Poland, Ukraine

[lyric meteor]

Yes, DNA testing is not common in Central/Eastern Europe as a general rule of thumb. Let alone Y-DNA testing. So genetic genealogy is often a lot harder for those communities than for those of Western European descent.

[dim arrow]

Thanks. Are there any good resources in how to navigate genetic genealogy research with that in mind?

[tawny abyss]

I have that issue with my big y as well, but in my case it's due to my y line going back to France, and France doesn't allow these tests so it's not widely done. (Some still do it anyway, but not at enough of a rate where I've gotten any matches).

[dim arrow]

Already?

[dim arrow]

🤨

Have I already contributed to science

[naive shard]

even when they say you receive big y result it may take 1-2 weeks to get the proper position in the tree

for example the person i know most recently tested got result back it had him at 2000 BC TMRCA clade and then 2 weeks later had at 600 BC

[dim arrow]

Oh good to know!

Excited to see where I land, then

[naive shard]

might still be the same, haha, but it can still form more recent branches if they exist

one of my friends has been stuck at TMRCA 3000 BC since he tested, no matches at any level and no changes to tree structure 😆

[dark osprey]

same here
R-FTA69840 3211 BC

[dim arrow]

Okay this is interesting! I think. The guy who was a match with me in my previous haplogroup appears to still be a match with me in my new haplogroup, and that the new haplogroup is downstream from the old one. So that implies to me that the MRCA between my match and I should be more modern than the ~50 CE the old haplogroup estimated

[naive shard]

yeah, you will definitely have a more recent TMRCA once the tree finishes updating

[dim arrow]

Why does FTDNA's Migration Map indicate that Y-Adam was in modern day Ethiopia, whereas the GlobeTrekker shows Y-Adam around Niger?

[naive shard]

because its completely theoretical, its not like we have the ancient DNA of the person that first had that mutation 🤷‍♂️

[warped olive]

We do not allow discussions about ancient DNA in this server, including services and calculators that primarily or specifically deal with ancient DNA. For more information please refer to the pinned post in #ethnicity-estimates.

[neat cairn]

@sick sinew

So, I hit my road block at my 9th great-grandfather, Edward Boswell (Gypsy leader), the only reason I’m researching the Boswell line this far back is because apparently the Boswells were popular back then so I am taking my chances.

1680-1747

[sick sinew]

(Continuing a conversation that began in #united-kingdom )

Yeah at 9 generations Y-DNA is really your only option, obviously autosomal matches won't be any use.

As I said I have no direct experience, but a couple of things to consider:

Are you sure you're even biologically descended from Edward? 9 generations is a lot of time for infidelity, especially when you already know it's in the family

Say you do get a match - what are the odds you'll be able to trace their tree back any further than yours? Maybe you have no infidelity in your paternal line (before Edward) but they might. Or they could descend from Edward as well.

I'll parrot some general advice I've heard from others in the server: start with a low-resolution test, if you get a match you can upgrade it. And wait for a deal.

[neat cairn]

Thank you Chris for helping with this, so it’s just up to whether I want to take the shot with the Y-DNA test. I’ll have a think and see what to do.

[ashen whale]

I have a short question: my Y-DNA test finally arrived, I am in Germany.
I now have the envelope that they gave me in the shipment.
But I guess I have to do some extra stuff so it can go from here to the US, right?

[dim arrow]

😭

I waited two weeks for the update to not provide much new information

But, a new TMRCA!

[gentle lichen]

I have a question about my Paternal Haplogroup, I recently did 23andme and FamilyTreeDna and I got Haplogroup O-B392. Now I know what the austronesian expansion is, it gave rise to Islander Se Asians, Micronesians, Polynesians, and some others I’ve been following its studies for quite some time. FamilyTreeDna noted I had some rare connections to remains found in the Maluku (Molucass Islands) literally the same haplogroup as Gua Uattadami remains from the Kayoa islands in the northern molucass which played a pivotal role in the colonization and migrations into Oceania. I just want to know more about my haplogorup (O-B392) than I can find by just surfing online. Genealogists, help would be much appreciated!

[spice spade]

I think just put your address in the top left and you’ll have to find a stamp, I assume?

[hearty swift]

Do you know if there are customs forms?

[spice spade]

I do not, actually. Good point

[heavy sedge]

I did an FtDNA test recently. I think international tests you are in charge of figuring out shipping. My test here in the US had the label already printed on the package.

So ship it with any postal service… how you would ship any international mail to the address printed on the package

[ashen whale]

Okay thank you! Just don't want to do anything wrong. The first shipment to me already had problems (not by me or them, but by DHL), so they needed to send me a second test.

[winter juniper]

That's odd, why does the envelope not include the word "DNA" after "FAMILY TREE"?

I think when my family placed our orders it said the company name completely.

[jade tangle]

Big Y results finally in! mailed in January

[spice spade]

any hits?

[jade tangle]

Idk what to look for really! His matches all have the surname I expected. I had to leave the house before I could look around more

[blazing compass]

I've seen a few international kits not mention it. Which is good, since some countries' postal companies are wary of shipping parcels which say "DNA" on them. Probably the reason they removed it.

[winter juniper]

Now I understand! I'm in the USA so no int'l shipping was involved.

[steady violet]

ydna from my mothers dad, hes serb from the south originally (vitina town)
r1b-z2103

[limpid crypt]

This question relates to Kristofer Olofsson Gunnerfelt, a soldier born circa 1715 in Dalby, Värmland, Sweden. This is not only my ancestor but also Buzz Aldrin's. His parents are not know, but I have gathered documentary evidence that strongly suggests he was an illegitimate child of Olof Kristofersson Utriainen and Ingeborg Eliasdotter. Court records show Ingeborg gave birth to an illegitimate child in 1715 and accused Olof of being the father. Indirect evidence suggests a link between Ingeborg and Kristofer.

I would like to supplement this with DNA evidence. I have traced several possible Y-DNA test takers descending from two of Kristofer Olofsson Gunnerfelt's sons. Sadly there are no other known lines from Olof Kristofersson Utriainen or his father Kristofer Olofsson Utriainen. So before I start spending time and money on contacting these men and getting them tested, I'd like to hear your view on the value of potential evidence that could be gathered from Y-DNA. As I see it, the potential results that would support the hypothesis are:

1. A Finnish haplogroup: As the surname Utriainen suggests, the suspected father was of the Finnish minority. This ethnic group normally carried an N haplogroup, which is very uncommon among men of Scandinavian descent.

2. A match in Finland with the Utriainen surname. One or more matches in Finland with the Utriainen surname would support the hypothesis, even if it would be highly unlikely that a link with the Utriainen in Sweden could be proven documentary.

Would anyone be able to comment on my plan? Is it worthwhile? What test should I get? I'm thinking Y-37 could be a cost effective alternative as I would like to test 2-4 individuals if possible.

[thorny void]

From Kosovo?

[steady violet]

Ye serb

Autonomous Province of Kosovo and Metohija

However u wanna call it

That's the location

[warm rain]

The Big Y-700 results for a promising close(ish) match of mine in my YDNA group came in! Turns out, as expected I form a new haplogroup clade with him: R-FTG51648. This means we share a common male ancestor sometime around the early 18th century (i.e., ~100-150yrs more recent than my previous identified haplogroup).

Plus, this guy's paternal line brickwalls around mid 18th century Knock & Branahuie on the Isle of Lewis. Which is only a ~15min drive away from where my paternal line brickwalls in nearby Aird Tong, also in the mid-to-late 18th century.

So that's a big plus for me, since now I know exactly which Morrison family in which village my MacKenzie paternal line is related to. I just need to tie up the loose ends on when and how.

Plus this Morrison family were in Uig parish on the opposite side of Lewis pre-mid 18th century, so there's the location factor of if the clan switch on my line happened before or after that migration.

[shadow portal]

Whoa! Awesome to have such a recent big Y match! I hope you will be able to use this knowledge to tie the two families together through records as well

[warm rain]

Me too! It's actually so close that I'd reliably be able to find potential autosomal links, especially with my Grandpa's DNA tested already.

But the knowledge of which Morrison family in which village I'm related to is so immensely helpful considering how many unrelated people have the same surnames on this island.

[shadow portal]

A luxury 🙂 I have been tracing the male-line descendants of my direct male line and outside of my small group of 1st cousins there are no descendants of my ancestor born in 1687 😅

[shadow portal]

I can imagine 😊

[warm rain]

What makes my paternal line all the more confusing is that autosomally I'm linked to the Gairloch MacKenzies, and the DNA connection is strong enough that I was able to be put in a Gairloch MacKenzie DNA group. But since my direct paternal line, despite being called MacKenzie, is not from Clan MacKenzie. So my actual MacKenzie connection is not only female mediated, but some weird endogamous mess on top of that.

I have a DNA match that is shared with these Gairloch MacKenzie folks, but he has connections to actual Gairloch-descended MacKenzies on Isle of Lewis, as well as the Pseudo-MacKenzies (i.e., Adopted Morrisons) that I descend from.

[light quest]

Does anyone know how long mtDNA upgrades on FTDNA are taking to get results?

[dark osprey]

one of my group member's took one and a half month, just for the legacy mtdna haplogroup
his mitotree beta haplogroup did not arrive yet

ordered back in march 31st this year

[light quest]

Omg okay lol, I thought it might be quicker because I’m already in the analyzing stage but I guess not 😂

[warm rain]

My YDNA haplogroup on FTDNA is officially updated as R-FTG51648!

It looks like the haplotree will be updated in the next week or so

[peak ridge]

I was able to connect one of three persons that match the same haplogroup! A match 6 steps away with 67 markers (oddly non-match with 111 markers). Common ancestor was found from early 1700's through NPE on my side recent enough that I could confirm it with with autosomal tests.

So, the hardest one of the three matches done, though NPE actually helped to confirm it. Sound like the other ones could be doable too, maybe?

[dim arrow]

(oddly non-match with 111 markers)
May I ask why that is odd? I'm still learning the ropes on Y-DNA. I thought it was possible for matches in the less-detailed levels to drop off completely in the more detailed levels. I have a pretty small amount of matches, and frustratingly this happens a few times for me.

[peak ridge]

True, that could just be it. I though having the same haplogroup would mean it would be a match on any level, but I don't have much experience on that. I have just those three on same haplogroup. Other two are matches on 111, 67, 37, and 25 markers, while that one I solved is only on 67, 25, and 12, not on 111 or 37. Maybe the odd thing is missing 37, not 111 actually.

[heavy sedge]

Got my mtDNA full results back, and I only had to wait about 4 weeks. My Maternal haplo is V-C16298T!

[heavy sedge]

I also have a total of 2 closer matches and 2 further away. None of which have anything remotely helpful in their profiles 😅

[light quest]

That’s awesome! What date did you get your test? I got my dads on 6/15 still waiting so hoping only another week or so more

[heavy sedge]

I received it in late May, and submitted the first week of June.

[light quest]

Oh awesome! Hopefully I get mine soon then

[drowsy crag]

One of my mt matches that had very little info (in terms of "I can't connect the tree to anyone in Portuguese docs due to privacy laws") I only solved via autosomal matches in common 😭

(Mrca was in late 18th century, and she and some of her relatives match my grandmother)

Protools specifically for how if not obvious

[heavy sedge]

I fear I may not be able to do anything with the matches I have on FtDNA. I do have some ideas where to look at records maybe now though.

Not sure yet. For some reason some of the information on my test is still populating 😭

[winter juniper]

and there's no identifying info about these samples below either other than they're modern people from somewhere in Europe -- from a study doing "testing in Caucasians", where they mean the race, not the mountain region:

1. AY495109(European) Coble V-C16298T 07-JAN-2008 T72C A263G 315.1C A750G A1438G A2706G G4580A A4769G A5582G C7028T A8860G A15326G C15904T T16519C
2. AY495118(European) Coble V-C16298T 07-JAN-2008 T72C A263G 309.1C 315.1C A750G A1438G A2706G G4580A A4769G C7028T A8860G A15326G C15904T

from which we know that V-C16298T! equals V-b on YFull MTree @ https://www.yfull.com/mtree/V-b/

people with English & German roots in that

also Irish, Uyghur, Spanish, Kazakh, "Russian"

[heavy sedge]

There is a geni project with zero info other than it seems to be majorly people from Finland and Sweden. I have no matches at zero genetic distance, and only 4 matches total on family tree dna. I’ve been trying to collect information anywhere I can but it seems like there isn’t anything. It seems to be a relatively rare haplo… No wonder when I tried uploading to jameslick it freaked out. I was hoping to find information on my mysterious maternal line that disappears without a trace, but it seems it will remain a mystery for now.

[shell magnet]

Where/when does it disappear?

[heavy sedge]

It appears 1860ish in Canada.

Maybe a little bit earlier

Anything prior to Mormon immigration to Utah is blurry and weird the brickwall ancestor has parents listed, but aside from church database records which could be just random family tables there is nothing. I do not believe the listed parents are her’s in any sense. I have a theory that I want to look into but I also don’t want to get ahead of something if it’s not a possibility. I want to be very careful with how I proceed.

[light quest]

My dads results just posted!! Just got the email

Less than 4 weeks for mtDNA

Still no mitrotree haplogroup, but regular one is H3

All of his top matches are H3gn so I’m assuming that’s what it will be

Exciting

[light quest]

If someone is an exact match within the coding region does that mean it’s fairly recent?

[drowsy crag]

I'm gonna assume you mean exact match overall bc you can't view ones for solely the coding region (which mutates slower than the 2 highly variable regions, hence the name), but yeah an exact mtfull match should be fairly recent at least, hopefully somewhere resembling the genealogical timeframe?
Ftdna says it's about 3k years old though, though the ages on mt haplos are way more variable than for y. I will also note it shows 2 clusters of 2 and 5 identical test takers on the page for the haplo, hopefully you're the latter one? (More convenient lmao)

"It" being h3gn, for clarity

https://discover.familytreedna.com/mtdna/H3gn/

I will note it has a descendant haplogroup too so 🤞 that yours will be the more specific one

[light quest]

These are his top three matches. The first one is the “exact match…” is the sequence starting with F the descendant haplogroup? Or one of the clusters? Lol sorry I’m so confused

[drowsy crag]

No, it's the H3gn+[whatever] that the site shows, the mitotree haplo is just for the specific mutation you have.
The first and maybe 2nd/3rd could have a traceable link to you so 🤞

Let me rephrase that oops

The F.....thingy is for the mutation

[light quest]

Got it! It looks like none of his matches have the same mutation that his exact match has so I wonder if it’s just me and this test taker in that mutation group so far…

[drowsy crag]

Yes but hopefully the pair of F2992640 are still a close enough relation. Do any of the 3 have a useful tree?

[light quest]

Yes, luckily the 2 that are one step away have trees! It looks like their ancestors on the maternal line are both from the same area in Italy that my dads maternal grandmother was from

[steel river]

hey can someone help me understand my ancestors? Im trying to figure if they were Celtic or Germanic? I've tried searching up them on Chat gpt but find out it's just putting towards Celtic origins

these are my

• R1b1a2a1a1c2b2 [R1b-Z28 (R1b-Z348, R1b-Z9)] -------- likely
• R1b1a2a1a1 [R1b-M405]
• R1b1a2a1a2a1b3~2 [R1b-L421 (R1b-L433, R1b-L88)]
• R1b1a2a1a2b3b [R1b-S47] ------ likely
• R1b1a2a1a2c1a1a1~6 [R1b-CTS655 (R1b-L753, R1b-YSC0000083)]

im not really too sure

how to make of this

[spice spade]

What website is this from? Just keep in mind, we don’t discuss ancient DNA

[warped olive]

We do not allow discussions about ancient DNA in this server, including services and calculators that primarily or specifically deal with ancient DNA. For more information please refer to the pinned post in #ethnicity-estimates.

[steel river]

I used morley dna predictor

But i got different results on my true ancestry

So im not really too sure what my ancient ancestors were

It's just confusing

[spice spade]

Mytrueancestry isn’t a recommended source. Morley can be accurate, but it would be helpful posting with a pic

[warped olive]

We do not recommend using MyTrueAncestry or Wegene. Please use extreme caution and do your research before uploading your raw data to any third-party website.

[spice spade]

We don’t deal with ancient dna either, just keep that in mind

[warped olive]

We do not allow discussions about ancient DNA in this server, including services and calculators that primarily or specifically deal with ancient DNA. For more information please refer to the pinned post in #ethnicity-estimates.

[steel river]

sure no problem give me a moment

Here it is

But im just confused ive asked chat gpt and it tells me its either germanic or celtic

i know r1b is common but which one

from this source

https://discover.23andme.com/haplogroup/R1b1a2a1a1c2b2-paternal%23
its common in ireland and england

R1b Z9

but doesnt state if its celtic origin

just among these population groups

here's one for southern franch

I looked up

[steel river]

Well if you could help me let me know

[spice spade]

That seem right, what you shared from 23andme. The only way to get a more specific haplogroup is to take a Y700 DNA test at FTDNA.

[steel river]

so im celtic?

nice thats cool

[ashen whale]

My Y-111 just got in and I even got a match with the same surname!

[main galleon]

New Belarusian Big-Y ordered, now it's waiting time 🙂

All previous I've ordered, I've predicted the haplogroup +- correclty, but this one is a total mystery

[spice spade]

How distant of relatives have you tested for these?

[main galleon]

Up to second cousins of my grandparents

[spice spade]

Awesome work!!

[dim arrow]

Just ordered an mt upgrade for myself and a new mt kit for my dad 🎉

Do upgrades typically process faster than new kits (obviously not considering the time to ship and return a new kit)

[ashen whale]

I am currently doing an update and it is not processing faster, so I guess no.

[light quest]

I got a mt upgrade for my dad and he got the results in less time than the time frame on the website

Sorry if I already asked this. But if I have an exact match, will my Mitotree results be the same as them? I haven’t gotten my Mitotree results yet but I have an exact match

[drowsy crag]

Yes!

My exact matches and distance one matches all score the same haplo

H1cu or something like that I forget

[drifting lava]

I got a question anyone can help

[spice spade]

what's the question

[drifting lava]

my ydna

I got r1a

z93

as 23&me says

anything I should know

I did upload my raw data file to the clade finder

and I got a region in russia

kabardino-balkaria

what does that mean

[drowsy crag]

https://discover.familytreedna.com/y-dna/R-Z93/story it's about 5k years old more or less, ftdna has a bit on it here

[drowsy crag]

i don't know where he region in quesion is from but it's part of Russia immediately north of Georgia fyi
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kabardino-Balkaria

[drifting lava]

R-Y286321, I have gotten this subclade

off the clade finder after inserting my raw data file

can you check how old it is

[drowsy crag]

at leas according to someone on reddit it's another name for R-FTC850

[drowsy crag]

https://discover.familytreedna.com/y-dna/R-FTC850/scientific

all 3 people with it on ftdna there have direct paternal ancestry in the northern caucasus, does that match what you know of your family?

[drifting lava]

no

i am from iraq

i dont think i can make sense of it

[drowsy crag]

it's not horribly odd at least, could be someone moved south some time in the middle ages or something, do you know much for farther back generations on your direct paternal line?

[drifting lava]

im from the Deep South

bordering the gulf

[drowsy crag]

teeeeechnically it could also be possible everyone else who has it and tested could have ancestors who moved north instead too i suppose

[drifting lava]

there is an ancient people that migrated from that exact region towards the region im from

but that’s the sumerians, related with hurrians and very ancient people

[drowsy crag]

oh yeah sumerians are uhhh. a bit older than ca 1500 🤣

oops wrong word

[drifting lava]

yea that’s what confuse me lol

they are very old like 4k years ago

[drowsy crag]

anyway a lot of closely related haplos are from gulf area and west asia, maybe it's just the caucasus and such ones moved north for various reasons?
https://discover.familytreedna.com/y-dna/R-FTC850/tree

ALSO

regarding cladefinder etc, it's technically still a guess as to your exact haplo, even if it's probably pretty close

[drifting lava]

I thought it was Indian when 23&me gave me rz93

but apparently it’s caucasian? related with circassians

the only time in history caucasians migrated to iraq was the sumerian times

other than that iraq had most its contact with persia for the rest of its history to this day

I even expected it to be persian related

is there a way I get to know?

[drowsy crag]

you could see if an actual y test gives you something different for one!

e.g. this line is related closely to your estimate, and has folks from Kuwait

also this cluster intrigues me bc i would be super curious if it was from an Umayyad era guy or something

(same group of related haplos)

[drifting lava]

intresting

[drifting lava]

I wonder too

[drifting lava]

where would you guess it migrated from

[drowsy crag]

looking at groups, it's random untraceable neomexicanos for the 2 spain ones (a Martinez and a Martin)

so possibly some random morisco ended up enlisting or something

[drowsy crag]

it might just be from the gulf area in the first place tbf

did cladefinder give any other good options for what it could be?

[ashen whale]

There still could be exceptions. Not everyone who moved must be part of a bigger migration pattern

I can't really track movement of some of my ancestors in the last few hundreds years, so I wouldn't be too surprised for times even more far away in time

[drifting lava]

that’s all it gave

[drifting lava]

there wasn’t much migrations recorded in history for iraq

but there was a Indian one

during the Abbasid times

brought in for agriculture

persians also settled iraq

but R-Y286321 is circassian

if it’s modern should I carry Circassian dna

[drowsy crag]

https://discover.familytreedna.com/y-dna/R-Z94/story oh no that's very common rip

[drowsy crag]

whatt he's saying is it could also be one singular guy immigrating independently, e.g. someone on the server here has a Slovenian who ended up in Catalonia

definitely not any kind of unified migration pattern (or much of one at all) for those two

[drifting lava]

that’s also very possible

could be just a random person

im guessing that person was circassian also

is that right

[drifting lava]

i do know many people carry it also in saudi and nearby nationality’s

that’s what makes me think it’s a migration of people

rather than a singular person

[drowsy crag]

Probably no way ti know but fairly possible

[drowsy crag]

It being from nearby countries could also mean it's from there moving out north and northeast and west, though

[drifting lava]

the family that keeps watch over the kaba is also under the same line of r1a

so it’s a big thing

even they are onto it

prophet abraham might be r1a in that case

and he’s a father of saudis he was from iraq

saudi got it from Iraq

but it’s a mystery

I can’t be sure of it

I don’t see much studies on it to understand

@drowsy crag this could also explain why Abraham was so different ideologically from the pagans he came up with monotheism, could be he came from a foreign culture

then caused himself to be kicked out babylon

then that way it spread to other parts of arabia

through his seed

[ashen whale]

Maybe you can find someone on ftdna or other groups, who also have your haplogroup and to find out more stuff

I am currently waiting for my Big Y results. I have only one match with the surname afaik

Must be at least back to the 16th century

[drifting lava]

I have joined some before, they all resulted to one answer, and it was we are descandents of hurrians mitanni people

mitanni in iraq as shown

[drifting lava]

good luck brother

[drowsy crag]

just as an fyi as you're getting a fair bit into the era in question, we're not allowed to discuss ancient dna stuff here

[warped olive]

We do not allow discussions about ancient DNA in this server, including services and calculators that primarily or specifically deal with ancient DNA. For more information please refer to the pinned post in #ethnicity-estimates.

[naive shard]

it's not, it's the one above that

https://discover.familytreedna.com/y-dna/R-FTC3275/tree

and the TMRCA is 825 CE because the only testers with that are the ones from Adygea, I believe if @drifting lava tests he would make the TMRCA go back further

[drifting lava]

not a problem

[drifting lava]

exactly, the testers both are adygeans

[warm rain]

Another factor to consider is that the Circassian Genocide by the Russian Empire in 1863-1878 killed/dispaced as much as 95-97% of the Circassian population in Circassia. So it's not improbable that @drifting lava descends from a Circassian ancestor who settled in Iraq, as the bulk of the 1-1.5M Circassians displaced by the genocide resettled throughout the former Ottoman Empire.

And since these Circassians were primarily Muslim, there wasn't as much of a religious barrier preventing admixture with other populations.

[drifting lava]

i did consider that, but I have 0% caucasian dna entirely from the whole region, so it’s pretty strange, it’s not related with the circassian genocide

[naive shard]

its possible, but i think its just that the mutation is older than what those websites show because the only testers with it just come from the same place

only way to know is with Big Y

[warm rain]

Your paternal line on its own is a tiny fraction of your entire autosomal DNA. Plus, if you only have say 5% of your DNA being Circassian across several smaller segments, that could easily be smoothed over into other related categories which 23andMe's algorithm does by design.

[drowsy crag]

oh oops, ty!

[warm rain]

The smoothing is made to remove noise in your DNA estimate, but the flaw of that is what an algorithm thinks is noise can actually be a correctly assigned region

[drifting lava]

i see, 23&me gave me only two nations in Western Asia, one was Qatar other was Iran

[warm rain]

The country matches are different since that's based on your network of DNA matches. It's more so saying you have DNA matches with all 4 grandparents in a given region. Thus it's subjective and you have to take into account migrations pre-early/mid 20th century.

Since the metric of just grandparents doesn't take into account generations further back.

[drifting lava]

my clan does affiliate itself to an ancient caucasian group of people

hurrians

they hold onto the name to this day

that’s the only connection I know of with caucasia

they are all extinct tho

including the subarians later known as sumerians

[warm rain]

Genetic groups on 23andMe are a better representation of your ancestry than country matches, as genetic groups represent defined & specific populations with shared DNA

[drifting lava]

my ancestry is different from my dna

my ancestry is caucasian my dna is middleastern

I’ve read throughout history it said people migrated from caucasia to mesopotamia and later adopted Akkadian language and assimilated overtime

those people where called sumerians

after that there was no connection to caucasia

it was mostly arab and persian rule in iraq

[warm rain]

This is getting more into ancient archaeogenetics, and thus not a topic for the server, but there's lots of scientific studies you can read up on to fuel your interest. It's a rapidly growing and expanding field of research

[drifting lava]

i was expecting help ive searched myself and couldn’t understand anything about it

I don’t know much in haplogroups maybe some person in the server knows

[warm rain]

I would point out again that Iraq has not been isolated from Caucasia since Arab & Persian rule! As pointed out earlier, Ottoman Iraq took in many Circassian refugees in the mid-19th century, less than 200yrs ago and in the genealogical timeframe. Iraq still has Circassian villages in the present day, as well as the Levant and Turkey.

[naive shard]

R-Z93 branch in general is related to indo-aryan language group anyways, also a related clade on yfull has chinese

[drifting lava]

isn’t my clade not indo iranian

it’s caucasian

[naive shard]

your clade is not necessarily caucasian

you just share a mutation with them

and generally the other people are not caucasian

only 1 small branch is

if you get Big Y you can see your TMRCA with those caucasians

otherwise too much speculation

[drifting lava]

best option is going for a big y

[warm rain]

Yup!

[drifting lava]

appreciate your help