Language lessons

[long barn]

Separate channel for natural language discussions

@fading dune to not flood random

“A” could have meaning of “but”
Or it also can be “and”

“Vinovat ne ya, a tyi”
“It’s not me, but you”

“A teper’ ya ustal”
“And now I feel tired”

[fading dune]

I could see "A teper" being "and now" and "but now"

[long barn]

It is “but” if you have a negative verb before “a”. So you are making opposition

[fading dune]

So about "ahh tak!", how can I explain "ahh" in english?

[long barn]

“Bylo teplo, a teper’ holodno”
“It was warm, and now it’s cold”

[long barn]

“Ah” could be as “oh”

“Ah tak?!”
Means “oh that’s how you are playing?!”

[fading dune]

Maybe "oh so [...]"

For cussing, it seems that I could take random objects and use them as effective cuss words. "rediska" comes to mind as a fairly traditional one

As far as I know, there is no deeper meaning behind the use of the word "radish" as an insult

"sapok" might be another example. I could sort of imagine a flimsy, worn down boot, but it really just means "boot", so again not sure there is any actual deeper meaning

Back to the radish for a moment, all I could guess is that a farmer one day was furious, and staring down at his radishes, and the only thing he could think of in the moment was to call the subject of his anger a radish. And then it stuck

[long barn]

I don’t know etimology of “rediska” 🙂

Actually not any word..

So “rediska” became popular because of one Soviet movie

And rumors saying that it came from revolutionary time
One revolutioner used this word about another “red” comrade
Because “radish” is white inside and red outside

[fading dune]

Ahhh

[long barn]

And at this period there was a civil war of “reds” (Soviet) and “whites” (tsar officers and army)

[latent trellis]

Finns had that too soon after the Soviets one IIRC

Same names, too

What I remember from one video is that many in the White army actually volunteered in WW1 (I think it was WW1) so they could get the experience to fight for Finnish Independence when they sprung their plan.

[long barn]

Not sure about that

[latent trellis]

IDK about the exact story, but you can find a couple of German Mausers that some people brought back with them.

It wasn't really an official sort of thing where the White Army says "I guess we're fighting in WW1 now", but some volunteers.

[latent trellis]

This is the video I think:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RcmixvUp_TU

[long barn]

Before 1917 there was no “White army”

But yeah probably Finns were participating as part of Russian Empire at that time

[latent trellis]

Yeah seems like it was just random dudes expecting war at that point

[long barn]

Here

[long barn]

Why is it like that?

Where? - Nowhere // fine looks logical
What? - Nothing // …
When? - Never // …
Why? - …………

@fading dune

In Russian it is more logical 🙂
where? где - нигде - nowhere
what? что - ничто - nothing
when? когда - никогда - never
…
@indraj.net

[fading dune]

What's this about?

[long barn]

Find the negative form of answer to simple questions

[long barn]

Like continue the sequence.. for “why?”

[fading dune]

I think I'm missing context haha, where is the original discussion?

[long barn]

It is here

No other context

Like it has question and answer

Q: Where?
A: nowhere

Q: What?
A: nothing

Q: When?
A: never

Did you understand the pattern here?

Now
Q: Why?
A: ???

Same in Russian will look like:
Q: Где?
A: нигде

Q: Что?
A: ничто

Q: Когда?
A: никогда

[fading dune]

Oh, but I know this haha

[long barn]

So what will be the answer for “Why?”

[fading dune]

Why what? I don't think I asked any question

Wait is this a riddle

Oh I see

That's... huh. Let me think

[latent trellis]

Because English is an amalgam of many different languages

And because it's an amalgam a lot of the rules from the source languages also get dropped

Like in Germanic and Latin languages you have a lot of fusional stuff where inflections or different affixes change the meaning, but this caused a lot of confusion when the Norse interacted with the Angles/Celts (I forgot which), and this caused them to be mostly dropped.

From what Copilot says (again, not a good source), the reason that "nowhen" doesn't exist is because "not ever" already did the job and was less ambiguous when speaking.

And the reason slavic languages have it is just because it's a different language branch. Things like double negatives are (apparently) gramatically correct, but they aren't in English.

Basically I guess it's a combination of Slavic using "no" + the interrogative as a rule, and English standardization.

[long barn]

But the question is still relevant about “nowhy” 🙂

[latent trellis]

So the way English pairs "no-x" is with nominal elements, which are like things

Basically the "no" doesn't change what the sentence is asking about, but "why" changes it to ask about the reason for whatever is in the rest of the sentence/clause.

So since "why" is an adverb, it doesn't work because that's not a thing, it's a concept.

The only time that you could do "no why" is something like "There is no why only the what", which is basically overriding the grammatical rule in a way that people understand.

[latent trellis]

Okay I think I have a better explanation (or at least some more clarification). But I need some clarification, too.

@forest karma is "no" + an interrogative still productive in Russian?

[forest karma]

i have no idea what you are saying @latent trellis

no means "but"

[latent trellis]

Basically when you have a question you ask a person, is it valid to put "no" in front of what's asked?

Not "no" as in a Russian word called "no", I mean "no" as in English no.

[latent trellis]

Like this

[forest karma]

im still confused

are you asking about english or russian?

in english obviously you can't just put "no" in front of a word to negate it

[latent trellis]

Russian

But only for interrogatives, I know you can't have a "nocat" in Russian

[forest karma]

so, @long barn wrote "ni", not "no"

thats the first thing

secondly, yes, it's correct and it always has been

the main issue is double negatives

they add extra word "ne" on top of the negation prefix

as in:

[latent trellis]

Yes but I mean "no" as in English no

[forest karma]

ничего не знаю

"I don't know nothing"

[latent trellis]

Yes

[forest karma]

I don't understand your question still

[latent trellis]

Like "no" + "where" but instead of "no" and "where" it's the Russian words for them.

In English we can't say "no what" as a response to "what x", but Russian can, and it can do it for other questions that are new, yes?

[forest karma]

No

These are standardised words, and the meaning is not always sufficient to derive from the compound

For example, the "no + what" you are talking about actually translates to "nothing"

[latent trellis]

Yes I know that

But you can add "no" to the question in some for as an answer

[forest karma]

There are no new questions that can be constructed either, these are dictionary words

[forest karma]

oh, you mean like

[latent trellis]

Like "did you drink" can have "no" put at the start in a way

[forest karma]

Ты не выпил?

like that?

[latent trellis]

Not really

[forest karma]

I have no clue what you are on about lol

[latent trellis]

More like "did you drink" and then responding with "no drink" or something

[forest karma]

@long barn help

[forest karma]

Не выпил

like that?

[latent trellis]

Yes

[forest karma]

basically, you just drop the pronoun

although only if it is obvious

[latent trellis]

So that's a rule that's still valid

[forest karma]

In present tense it is always obvious

usually for future is the same

[latent trellis]

Okay

[forest karma]

but for past it's less clear

[latent trellis]

So I can explain then

[forest karma]

so if it is not clear who the subject is, you need to specify

[latent trellis]

So Russian has that as a rule where you can generate stuff like that on the fly.

[forest karma]

не выпил tells me that (1) it's a single person and (2) it's a man

but there is no explicit pronoun there

[latent trellis]

English doesn't have this rule still, since it's fossilized but lexicalized (where it's an old rule that doesn't make new words but still is used)

[forest karma]

Idk about English man

I just speak it, don't understand shit tho

[latent trellis]

So the old rule was "no" + noun as a response to an interrogative

[forest karma]

Hmm

[latent trellis]

But you can't just make "no drink" or "I drinkn't" in English

It's only those phrases that got solidified a long time ago

And the rule was that you can only at "no" + the question word (or key word) for nouns.

Not concepts.

[forest karma]

I see

[latent trellis]

So you can't do "nowhy" because "why" isn't a noun.

Same with "nohow"

[long barn]

so there is no "no why" ? 🙂

[latent trellis]

No

[long barn]

and no "no how"? 🙁

[latent trellis]

You have to respond to an interrogative like that with "no" + a noun for any question like that

[latent trellis]

No

[forest karma]

У нас тоже нету я думаю

[long barn]

Как? - никак

How? no how 🙂

[forest karma]

«почему нет?»

[latent trellis]

Which is why "What?" gets responded to with "Nothing", because it's "No" + "thing". It's sort of clarifying the abstract question.

[forest karma]

да, для как да

[latent trellis]

And you can't just do "no" + noun anymore either, because that's not a thing that people accept for answering interrogative questions

[fading dune]

Perhaps "nizachevo"

[latent trellis]

"No reason"

[long barn]

ok for "why" in Russian also there is no proper form 🙂
But when young kids are asking their moms:
why why why why why why...
Moms can answer "нипочему" 😄
which is "no why" 😄

[latent trellis]

Antoher neat linguistic thing:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dUnGvH8fUUc

[forest karma]

но дело в том что невозможно это сделать как правило. Типа если в словаре нету, то нету

[long barn]

or
"why? - "that's why"
"Почему?" - "потому"

[latent trellis]

An example of a productive rule would be something like "-able"

[forest karma]

Nah, potomu is like because

[latent trellis]

"believable, thinkable, codeable"

[long barn]

oh ok - yeah
why? - because

[forest karma]

can also say из-за

[fading dune]

Or "prosto", but yeah that deviates from the "no-" prefixes

[long barn]

yes

[forest karma]

this is a really confusing topic

[latent trellis]

Lingusitics is neat

[forest karma]

there are words and I speak them

[latent trellis]

You know why "uh" exists?

Because it's the sound with the least effort to make.

[forest karma]

you know what's better?

[latent trellis]

So when you want to say something (or are about to say something), but you don't know what, you say "uh"

[forest karma]

あの、

えと、

[latent trellis]

Effort and speed is why things get reduced to schwa too

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qu4zyRqILYM

[forest karma]

you are such a nerd

just learn another language, rather than the theory of it xd

That's the best way to understand things

[latent trellis]

Well I did

[forest karma]

which one?

[latent trellis]

French

[forest karma]

don't say "old english"

oh, french doesn't teach you anything about grammar lol

french is super messed up

[latent trellis]

No but it teaches you about how they sound dumb and how fusional languages work

Russian is also fusional IIRC

Like endings can have meaning such as "first person, present tense, indicative, etc." all in one

[forest karma]

fusional blya

ofiget

[latent trellis]

Oh there are Grice's Maxims too

[forest karma]

just learn russian 🙂

[latent trellis]

What do you think I mean when I say "I'm out of gas"?

[forest karma]

then you wont wonder if your information about the grammatical analysis is correct or not

the whole point of language is to speak it

not obsess over the theory of it

it's not a science

its a thing that is inconsistent that has been invented by humans

[latent trellis]

It's like the Lamda calculus it's cool to understand it and why "itsn't" doesn't work but "shouldn't've" does

[forest karma]

saying you're studying linguistics is like saying you're studying christology

[forest karma]

it's not cool at all

[latent trellis]

Finding the rules out though

[latent trellis]

But for this, obviously I mean "I can't run my car/mower/other device" and that I need help (if I say it in a certain way)

You can assume two things about what I mean without me having to specify it formally

And if you respond with "there's a garage down the road", I can understand that "garage" is "gas station", and you're saying that I can push my car there and solve being stranded.

All three of these things in the response are implied.

So you and I would have to be operating on shared assumptions in our conversation.

And we try to fit what each of us say into something that makes sense, so we can understand what we both mean.

[forest karma]

you could just read The New Penguin Complete Russian Course

all the grammar you want is in there

[latent trellis]

This tells you the what, but not the why

You're like an archaeologist with the why

[forest karma]

it tells you the why as well

and ngl you can figure it out logically too

[latent trellis]

I will have to get it then

[forest karma]

if you can't, it's either because it's your native language and you've never thought about it, or you're dumb

[latent trellis]

Sometimes you forget about who invaded who, and when, when it comes to English history

[forest karma]

by design

we skip the years between 1066 and 1912

(yes, we skip you)

[latent trellis]

Another thing is that I told my old biology professor about how language families were similar to phylogenetic trees, and he actually told me that one of his colleagues literally did research on this.

[forest karma]

bro can i go back to writing code now

[latent trellis]

This was Tolkien's whole life IDK why you're bored

But yes

[forest karma]

mate it was boring when we had to write essays about his life 10 years ago, and it's boring now

[latent trellis]

You should try it man

[forest karma]

at my school it's like a cult of tolkien

[latent trellis]

Writing about his life is boring maybe, but doing what he did could be cool

Make a new language, make rules for it

It's like creating a compiler

[fading dune]

ash nazh [...]!

https://tenor.com/view/gandalf-mithrandir-morquendil-greed-black-gif-21069153

[forest karma]

https://kes.org.uk/news/tolkien-lecture-2024-professor-chris-hodges-obe/

It was a fascinating evening well received by an enthralled crowd.
yeah no i doubt that

[latent trellis]

Did you like the books at least?

You can find stuff like that in them too.

[forest karma]

no, it's not my thing

the only author from my school i liked was maybe lee child

[latent trellis]

Like Bilbo talks about being a "clue finder" to Smaug, because in an old version of Flies and Spiders he followed a silk thread, and a thread (or a ball of it, I forgot) was called a clue

And we use "clue" the way we do because of the minotaur story or something

And "Bag-End" is literally just "Cul de sac" in English

Shelob is literally "she-lob", where lob means spider

[fading dune]

lob means lobster I think

[latent trellis]

Beorn means "man" and "bear" in Old English

[latent trellis]

Maybe lol

[latent trellis]

Oh and in the riddles

There's a one about "eyes" with regards to a sun and a flower

You know why?

Because "Daisy" means "Day's Eye" in Old English

[fading dune]

And I think that's probably imported from scandinavia

[latent trellis]

Yes IIRC that's where it came from

Either that or Germanic

Old Norse

[forest karma]

ugh, you know who was a good writer?

Lewis Carrol

[fading dune]

ursula k leguin

[forest karma]

he was from belfast actually

he and tolkien knew each other

[forest karma]

ursula von der leyen

[latent trellis]

Aw yeah he did stuff with determinants

What do you mean CS Lewis?

[forest karma]

whoops, yes

cs lewis lol

had a brain aneurysm for a second there

[latent trellis]

CS Lewis was also neat tbh

I just realized both of them have Jesus in their series

[forest karma]

yup