Fixing Factions: Imperials

[nimble vale]

It is no mystery to anyone that Skyrim's faction writing can sometimes leave things to be desired. Let's bring those desires to life:

Imagine that you are a designer working on the Empire's side of the Civil War quest line. What ONE major change would you make to this quest line, whether it be to the lore, gameplay, or character writing? What are its effects on the story and the rest of the game?

EDIT: Since this one is a little weird, feel free to talk about much larger changes than normal! For example, "ONE major change" could be a shift in the way the Empire, the Civil War, or other aspects of the setting are approached in a way that better supports the role Imperials are supposed to play narratively and metanarratively, and have ripple effects on the Imperials themselves.

[earnest halo]

The ability to assassinate Ulfrick Stormclock on day 1 of the war

[nimble vale]

<@&1011584455019872266> new Arcanaeum entry is up!

[nimble vale]

that'd be fun

[earnest halo]

where is that picture from

it is beautiful

[nimble vale]

legends

[topaz rose]

How difficult, how rather difficult.

[earnest halo]

ah

[nimble vale]

it seems markedly more difficult than, e.g., the Stormcloaks

[earnest halo]

that legends picture makes no sense

[topaz rose]

Yuh, perhaps the imperials are too good an option?
I mean, their leaders are (mostly) better and such.

[earnest halo]

the ones standing behind him are imperial champions, and he's only got one in Solitude when he summons us

[topaz rose]

But that doesn't look right either.

[quartz vine]

Yeahhh the struggle with the Empire in Skyrim is that to fix the Legion you gotta address the overall portrayal of imperialism in the game, and that'd require Nord culture to exist

[nimble vale]

[topaz rose]

Yeah it's difficult, you would have to change the game overall to fix the faction.

At least Morrowind had that.

Even though the empire still seemed a better option (as basically always)

[topaz rose]

So eee... Good entry mate, good while it lasted.

🥀

[nimble vale]

i'm just doing it to complete the set

i'ma do Thalmor next

i wanted to finish the Civil War part with the Thalmor tho cuz like, duh

[topaz rose]

Barely even a faction.

[nimble vale]

i'm sure someone'll have something

[nimble vale]

but one we have a lot of opinions on

[topaz rose]

True enough, like with the Stormcloaks.

This would be more productive if we took the improvements we discussed in the stormcloaks one for us to be able to improve this one...

Or just roll with it.

[nimble vale]

honestly if you want to make larger sweeping changes i'm fine with that too

EDIT: Since this one is a little weird, feel free to talk about much larger changes than normal! For example, "ONE major change" could be a shift in the way the Empire, the Civil War, or other aspects of the setting are approached in a way that better supports the role Imperials are supposed to play narratively and metanarratively, and have ripple effects on the Imperials themselves.

there

[topaz rose]

I would have liked to see more of the empire against Talos worshippers.
I know that's technically a Thalmor job, but it would have solidified how bound they are by the treaty in a more bloodthirsty way.

Bloodthirsty? Radical?

[steep socket]

i think how they'd run themselves, they don't feel like a faction that knows how to handle war. They barely have any war tactics

[topaz rose]

I mean, we see this with Heimskr but that's hardly something.

[nimble vale]

like [the Talos Mistake]: represented in person more as a position?

that'd be sick

[shut linden]

[the Talos Mistake]: Lore:The Talos Mistake

[topaz rose]

Indeed.

Would be interesting, to see that godless empire Vivec talks about.

[steep socket]

the empire just feels barbaric, it feels bland just constant ambushes that probably wouldn't work without the dragonborn

[nimble vale]

😭 i wish i didn't have such a gut reaction to words like "barbaric" and "savage"

[quartz vine]

I think my one big change would be presenting the actual imperialism better by reintroducing aspects of nord culture ig. Have actual persecution of Talos worship happen without instantly pinning it on the Thalmor

[topaz rose]

Yeeeeah precisely.

[topaz rose]

Which, we see. I understand the point behind "Faceless, Traditionless, raceless" but it still feels like the empire is too... Goody two shoes?

It just feels like anything and everything bad could be attributed to the Thalmor almost immediately tbh.

[small dagger]

Noice new entry

[steep socket]

i dont have any other word to really describe them

The Legion utilizes ambushes, such as the ambush at Darkwater Crossing where they captured Ulfric, the ambush at Giant's Gap, the ambush at Shor's Watchtower, or the ambush on a Stormcloak caravan in the Rift. The Imperial forces are also stated to be massacring the Stormcloaks in the field, as well as pushing the rebels back, forcing the Stormcloaks to commit their forces to try and keep the Legion at bay.

[nimble vale]

yeah, they're just troublesome words historically

they came about and continue to be used in dehumanizing ways. this is kind of a weird example because it's actually aimed at the Empire, which are modeled partly after e.g. Rome, from whom Barbarian comes (used to refer to non-Latin speaking peoples while justifying their displacement and murder)

[topaz rose]

Used as a derogative from a self-perceived group of "superior" folk.

Awesome.

[nimble vale]

exactly

[nimble vale]

(to be clear, this framing doesn't make it any better, just less obvious)

(bc the Empire are the ones who we'd normally associate with framing themselves and their culture as superior)

[topaz rose]

(Which, they do, but yuh)

[nimble vale]

yeah, although not exclusively

[old oyster]

A reintroduction of Nordic culture, maybe a submovement of the Stormcloaks that wants to bring back the old pantheon to show the contrast of nordic culture and imperialised nord culture - driving home how the Empire erodes the "barbaric" (as they see it) cultures.

Also more with the EEC to show the economic exploitation angle

[nimble vale]

Dunmer do it @ Orcs, Nords, and mannish folk in general. Nords do it @ Reachfolk, Orcs, and Dunmer

(not unanimously ofc, but it's an extant and significant thing within their respective cultures and their language)

[topaz rose]

Yes.

[small dagger]

Well capturing the forts was a bit boring tbh, maybe making the Thalmor more present as well as Ulfric countering your political moves would be some nice changes.

[proper chasm]

One minor change:
Make there be more races present in the legion as well as more Women. We know there are Orcs in the Legion & we see a Dunmer & Altmer legate. Let us have a more diverse pool of foot soldiers.

Another small one. Instead of talking to Rikke in each hold, let us talk to the Legate that’s already running operations there.

[shy wigeon]

give them pants

i don’t care how roman the skirt is the empire won’t last much longer if all the soldiers freeze their nuts off.

add more nord imperial soldiers too

give them skirts since their nuts are fleece-lined to ensure they can survive in cold weather

also yk it’d dispel the “empire is imperials stormcloaks is nords” thing people think sometimes

it’s a holy war not a race war

[merry shard]

Adding battle mages (Nibenese would make the most sense) could be neat.

[shy wigeon]

there are imperial battle mages is the thing

they’re in the intro

like all over the shop

they just kinda disappear after that though i think

[merry shard]

yep

[merry shard]

yea after Helgen theyre all just gone

[outer fern]

i never understood how an empire with so many contacts just fell, if it was me I would have given my entire worth to db to get every thalmor leader assassinated

[topaz rose]

The Empire after the oblivion crisis was basically non-existent.

It was Mede and his descendants that glued back the pieces (to the best of their capacity)

[outer fern]

uhh i was talking about the white gold concordant

[topaz rose]

Ah, fell to the Thalmor or you mean afterwards?

[outer fern]

like fell to thalmor control

[topaz rose]

They lost the war, plain and simple.

[outer fern]

but for example in events of skyrim you can see there is a puppet emperor on throne per say

can't he do something like that

[topaz rose]

Mede II isn't a thalmor puppet. He just can't fight against them as publicly as one would want unless he wants another great war there and then.

The "Fight" is to prepare for another war.

[outer fern]

what about assassination of important figures

there isnt 1 way to fight a war

[topaz rose]

I'd wager the Pennitus Occulatus take care of that kind of stuff, plus espionage.

[outer fern]

like almost everyone hates thalmor so they can keep guessing who ordered the kill

plus all you need to hire db is coin

[topaz rose]

Not like they can be that drastic as well, the thalmor are great at espionage themselves and they are breathing down the empire's neck 24/7

Kuma.

[topaz rose]

The LDB is a fairly recent thing... As in, the most recent.

You could roleplay that they do so afterwards, but because of the nature of you being the protagonist and how they manage that, it won't be of importance.

[outer fern]

they don't really need ldb to do that i am just saying there's a chance to recover the empire from that point on

[topaz rose]

Yuh, that's what they are trying to do.

[outer fern]

ah

[topaz rose]

Which is difficult when you're still recovering from the Oblivion Crisis + The Great war + Several issues in their own provinces. The empire has been slowly decaying since TES I: Arena. What's happening is not surprising.

What's surprising is that the empire even exists as of now.

[outer fern]

oblivion crisis was long back tho

considering 4th era no

[topaz rose]

Long lasting consequences.

[outer fern]

the death of titus mede basically crested a power vacuum no?

[quaint pasture]

In a gameplay sense, you'd have to extend the Civil War questline or extend the amount of activities in the Civil War questline
There are mods in the Skyrim community that pad out the story quests by having you engage with the side content, and the Civil War's side content is nonexistent - you could have campaigns to root out enemy camps, you could build infrastructure for newly established land for Stormcloaks or Imperials, you could raze farms in enemy territory to cut off supply lines, that sort of thing
Stormcloaks side missions should be based in guerilla warfare while the Imperials side is about having the citizens be more accustomed to their presence, diplomacy and such

[topaz rose]

The rise of the thalmor are such a consequence, Morrowind becoming independent is a consequence, the dissolution of the mages guild is a consequence of both the Oblivion Crisis and Mannimarco's plot iirc.

Etc etc etc.

[outer fern]

if I get it correct the dominion saw a power vacuum and a lack or solid leadership and basically just did what they did

[topaz rose]

I assume you mean the death of the Septim line.
Ocato of Firsthold (Potentate Ocato) held it together a bit longer but he was murdered. You could say the empire died then and there.

[outer fern]

ah yes that

[topaz rose]

Another interregnum. Titus Mede I appears (warlord) and takes the throne.

[topaz rose]

If you want to know more about all that I would simply recommend reading "Rising threat" and "The Great War"

[outer fern]

alr

[topaz rose]

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Rising_Threat
https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:The_Great_War_(book%29