hehe dont worry
#dusk-duskworld-dungeonsofdusk
spare cobalt
I get that alot
start going too deep into something and realize its sarcasm or jk
bright vine
I'm thinking though, what would DUsk play like if it had double jumping and dashing
hmmm
sliding is one thing
spare cobalt
dusk tournament? xD
bright vine
dashing or even air-dashing is another
spare cobalt
not that I mind ut
bright vine
Maybe when somebody makes a Dusk TC after it has become the juggernaut of the FPS genre for years to come
they'd implement such mechanics
I do look forward to community levels
which hopefully will be present
spare cobalt
new release of duskworld every year
bright vine
Guys make amazing things for Quake 1
Arcande Dimensions and all
Would love to see smth for Dusk too
custom enemies
guns
levels
Sweet dreams are made of this
spare cobalt
SDK comes out later
if you have any mapping experience for example its supposedly very easy to pick up
brittle lark
would they add co-op to the campaing?
dull remnant
woah wait, are they going to release a level editor for Dusk? 👀
opaque spindle
nah we won't have a level editor ourselves but Trenchbroom is going to be our officially supported map maker
mild chasm
arcane dimensions port for dusk when
brittle lark
oooh
flint cedar
Damn that was pretty savage
mild ginkgo
i wonder what shillbot is gonna say when dusk releases 
fair mirage
"buy our fucking videogame or fuck you"
neon dove
i kinda want to wait till i finish the game to ask this question but ill aks it anyway
are the soliders in the game like...possessed/zombie soldiers or are they like
"Hey! you're not suppose to be here!" and they gotta kill you so you don't tell anyone about the town of Dusk
keeping Quarantine
crisp lion
People believe they're possessed. but there's about as equal chance of them just being pissed off at the player for being in restricted space.
though really it's likely it's both.
crisp lion
hence why E1M8 has them shooting the cultists, while over soldiers will be found in direct view and with cultists.
neon dove
Yeah probably both I guess, and so maybe the cult/possesssion activity leaked a bit further outside the cordon hence the first couple levels
I'm liking this lore, at least what tidbits I can grab/speculate. Gotta play the whole game to fully understand
crisp lion
well I wouldn't be too surprised if the cult was around long before the Military quarantined the town, and began digging.
neon dove
definetely, cults and their practices tend to stretch far back, moreso especially the entities they worship
crisp lion
Well if Dusk has these ruins under the city/town/whatever, it would've been inevitable that people would have stumbled upon them, and ended up worshipping the demons or whatever.
neon dove
It makes an interesting speculation on how the military found this cult activity out, what whole political and strategical planning they had to do in order to cordon off the zone. I mean as far as "Heymr senator so and so, your state has a uh...massive ancient city under we gotta keep people out"
because would taking a large military force and constructing a whole cordon of a town like that take alot into planning/resources
crisp lion
Personally I believe the Military only gained interest when whoever owned the Granary (E2M1) a bunch of witnesses, and the company went public about it, and the military went in for a few weeks or months, the cult exploded, shit hit the fan, and the joint was sealed.
crisp lion
basically the Granary was expanded underground, burst into some ruins (E2M2, within and under the Granary's basement)
and basically all the people involved in that expansion saw those ruins, told the local paper (or radio/tv station etc) and it blew up cross the states.
neon dove
Yeah, I see what's going on there though. The whole military/cordon thing also reminds me of the HECU in Half-Life and the military who patrol The Zone in S.T.A.L.K.E.R
crisp lion
Obviously when we get the full release we'll see a bigger picture.
considering after Episode 3 is finished, E1 is getting a story pass.
mild ginkgo
whats the lore for enemies falling through geometry when they take a jump pad?
neon dove
and probably it blowing up as far as the media attracted a bit more folk who where interested in the occult 🤔
crisp lion
It's just a bug™
neon dove
I t j u s t w o r k s
fair mirage
the town of dusk has a very unstable quantum field
it causes people to go through floors occasionally
mild ginkgo
they were never actually designed to land, but we added it today
crisp lion
well it rly do be like that sometimes when U got demons everywhere
neon dove
Maybe the city....and whatever could be in it is slightly vibrating space-time itself in some Eldritch wya
fair mirage
scientists would study it more but the cultists kinda prevent that
neon dove
hence the fuckery at Escher Labs
crisp lion
oh so you guys finally made it so the Monsters actually get off the jump pads instead of trampolining?
mild ginkgo
yeah
neon dove
I might play me some DUSK in a bit, or maybe in the morning. I'm right at the start of Erebus Reactor
crisp lion
That is where the fun begins
crisp lion
of course!
the game was rigged from the start
well it was memed from the start but whatever 🤷
delicate sail
Chandler intensifies
mild ginkgo
hmm erebus
now that makes me think we should tweak the jump pad in there to lift big john a little bit higher so he can chase you up the chute
neon dove
Yeah that's one of Mar's moons, too right??? OR some kinda Doom reference
I haven't encounter Big John yet and at this point I'm too afraid to ask 
mild ginkgo
rip
neon dove
You're next
delicate violet
delicate violet
rotund glen
jade root
remi got an upgrade
mild chasm
The rat protagonist of ratatouille?
Because if that's the case I don't like this sequel very much
graceful wing
winged otter
suggestion: add antialiasing and anisotropic filtering features
graceful wing
y tho?
winged otter
why not, we have ton of graphic features(gimmicky too), AA and aniso in games is always handy
jade root
You don't need AA and Aniso in dusk lol
It makes zero difference
We've even tested it
shell arch
just set the pixelation filter to 0
mild chasm
Anti-Aliasing and Anisotropic Filtering are the opposite of pixelation
Or rather AA is
shell arch
yeah
jade root
Everytime we get a post in the steam forums about AA, everyone on internal collectively dies
mild chasm
High resolution dusk pack when
crisp lion
Mod™ it™ in™
shut mesa
omegadelet
shut mesa
it looks like a postal 2 skin
mild chasm
You see once upon a time I read about this and was like "okay cool sounds good" because I thought we were talking like
sprites
still
but cleaner ones or something
shell arch
i think they would look better if they were made out of voxels
crimson folio
a lot of the original models back in those days were done using silicon/clay.
and then digitized
winged otter
like Blood
winged otter
Doom has clay model enemies? i dont think so
mild chasm
Duke looks like it could either be clay models or 3D models they used similar methods for
Doom does
I'm not sure they're clay
crimson folio
mild chasm
but they are models
crimson folio
either clay or silicon
crimson folio
so the idea is that in order to 3d it - you need modern PBR shaders and 3d scanning, as well as original models
then just 3d scan them and apply correct materials, add rigging where needed
but good luck getting those original models
balmy sluice
Dusk is made of clay
shut mesa
dusk models were made out of macaroni art and then digitized
crimson folio
i am pretty sure dusk is made out of low poly. were clay models ever involved?
mild ginkgo
News from the front
winged otter
@crimson folio but Doom models are not 3d scanned? they are photographed from 8 sides
mild ginkgo
Dusk is made of cancelled
shut mesa
cancellonium
winged otter
problem with lots of texture packs that they are really inconsistent with texture res and art style
crisp lion
re: Half Life HD Models
crimson folio
Of course. because they're made by people which don't have enough experience
so they half-ass them
clever wasp
ba-dum tsss
crimson folio
multiple doom hrps suffered because of it
compare to this https://www.screencast.com/t/uEZBGnzIGn
all the vibrance is gone, half of depth is gone, detail is shit.
clever wasp
so in other words, it's been "modernized"
viral gate
gross
clever wasp
everything eventually gets sacrificed to the dark gods of resolution and photorealism
anytime a game shows a hint of saturation, people either praise it as being bold and innovative, or say it looks like garbage nowadays
crimson folio
it's been shittified
@clever wasp no you can actually do better job
and match up high res result with lowres original
viral gate
Yeah it's possible to make it look good with a higher resolution, just would take a lot of work and thought
crimson folio
yep
clever wasp
it's easier to just upscale shit and not care about details
viral gate
yep
crimson folio
even harder to update the model while staying faithful. here's how new mancubus would look in new doom https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/doom/images/8/8c/Mancubus_Eternal.png/revision/latest?cb=20180810182216
quiet rose
tame sandal
when dusk eventually becomes finished, and gets mod support, and people make new maps/levels, will those levels be just an added on campaign or will there have to be a seperate menu thingy for them? : /
tame sandal
yeah and tbf its not rlly an important question, im just curious about the more technical things
mild chasm
Build engine games had that custom content submenu of when you start a new game
tame sandal
so they wouldnt just have custom levels, added on to the game, it would be in another menu?
ok
crimson folio
it's more difficult than you'd think - unity3d doesn't support external levels out of the box - you need to rig all that together yourself
mild chasm
I can imagine it is
Unity doesn't come with native support for a lot of crap that it probably should
crimson folio
not really
unity3d is very flexible
that's the idea. you can make mostly static games. or you can expand it as you see fit
you can use it as a purely graphical engine as well. but one which also compiles to multiplatform. that's what i'm doing for my game. most of the data is separate
tame sandal
the devs could prolly make a bunch of blank unplayable levels that modders could just make playable if they were lazy or smth
crimson folio
furthermore it depends on the internal systems. if you have properly setup trigger and event collider system - you can technically import BSP levels - quake format and all, and then just map quake triggers and quake brush triggers onto yours (along with events) and be done with it - it will work
tame sandal
but the first thousand mods/maps that people are gonna make are gonna be meme mods
crimson folio
of course there is a slew of problems with those as well. for starters - you lose binary space partitioning itself in unity, unless you also code in interpreter which will remove visibility of not-seen sectors
jade root
I mean we have the whole system of converting .bsp (I think) into usuable level formats for dusk
tame sandal
nice
jade root
Smoke take it to your tech blog
crimson folio
@jade root it is demi-dusk-reliant talk,
clever wasp
people don't really like tech talk outside of #general-modding is what jab is trying to say
(and even then)
crimson folio
i don't see that channel anywhere
tame sandal
under off topic
jade root
Have to have the rat role to access it
tame sandal
ripperoni pizza
jade root
Nice filter hit
We don't want people coming in here shilling their shit and then disappearing
clever wasp
we have Shillboi for that
jade root
Sure
final estuary
"Hello yes is this the video game?"
clever wasp
ye
shell arch
huh
last time i checked it was cancel
final estuary
i read that one pinned thread on the steam forums and it was funny as fuck
vague egret
Video game
final estuary
rad video game
graceful wing
Bad video game
thorn trout
dad video game
flat swift
It's so bad it causes a singularity and becomes a bad ass game, you're tearing me apart Wendigo!
molten peak
It's naht true, I did not hit her, I did naaaaht. Oh hai Big John
delicate violet
ded video game
neon dove
crisp lion
GRAND DAD!
gleaming berry
YEET
opaque spindle
yeet it just got delayed 3 years
crisp lion
jk
the truth is
Hulshult music is being replaced with Streets of Rage Music
the game was rigged from the start
brittle lark
cool
graceful wing
Aren't anime ops technically all j pop?
opaque spindle
Oh yeah lol
graceful wing
delicate violet
Nah, Hulshut's music is being replaced by the entire soundtrack of both JSR and JSRF
graceful wing
Jab gets to make all music choices for the game
acoustic oriole
come back in 10 years
neon dove
viral gate
Whoa that's a very unsafe way to use a chainsaw
shell arch
calm down there, sal - i'm gonna replay your game again once the HD mod comes out
opal plover
You mean the "everything looks like plastic" mod?
viral gate
Shiny.
shell arch
well... kinda, i guess? 
shell arch
oh i don't mean that
i was making a joke about how reminds me of salvador from re4
but shhhh - don't tell anyone
clever wasp
jesus fuck what is that abomination
it looks like a nVidia marketing stunt to sell RTX tech
crisp lion
DISGUSTING!
mild ginkgo
its "doom 2 remade in ue4!"
or something along those lines
ive stumbled across that video before
here you go
its pretty gross
crisp lion
terrible, direct conversions are trash, especially when nothing for a level's design is updated.
fast wigeon
as soon as someone mentions hd remake of an old game i think of that
and that shitty ue4 remake of mario 64
mild ginkgo
and the music is a fucking abomination
opal plover
Oh god what is that like?
mild ginkgo
over the visuals
opal plover
mario 64
opal plover
Gibs look like poo nugets
mild ginkgo
its like a good song
opal plover
Eh it's a decent into Sandy's city modernization
Which is one of the best Doom2 tracks
If you disagree you're a heretic
mild ginkgo
but like cmon, its not the map for it
crisp lion
I'm neutral to Into Sandy's City
crisp lion
Shawn's Got the Shotgun, and the music for map 28 are my two favourite tracks.
opal plover
Yeah like Shawn's got the shotgun is one of the only really metal doom 2 tracks
crisp lion
I'm pretty Indifferent to Running From Evil, but I'm lean negative towards it, since it's kinda overused, and not a big fan of it.
Hangar 18 is still a great song tho
mild ginkgo
i guess
jade root
opal plover
What is that from
mild ginkgo
leaked ep3 boss
opal plover
It better be a parody
jade root
Doom is my favorite video game experience
crisp lion
ugh
fair mirage
that's a nice brown
fair mirage
and i really like that it looks like it got dropped into a vat of clear coat
graceful wing
Cacademon
opal plover
WHAT IS
jade root
Real gamer hours rn
opal plover
That lad looks peeved
shell arch
holy shit he's ripped
opal plover
Imps always were
shell arch
the absolute unit 
crisp lion
stop with the HD packs
shell arch
Dusk™ HD Remaster™ made by Bluepoint™ when?
opal plover
IT'S TIME TO STOP
fair mirage
mmm jhexen
delicate sail
Eesh
shut mesa
chexen
fast wigeon
heck, son
crimson folio
No HDing this section, please.
jaunty meteor
That overblown lighting is fucking awful
You can not hide shitty texturework with fancy lighting no matter how hard you try
crisp lion
I unironically can't find the Intoxigator and Duke Brothers Boss music.
fyi, doing some cataloguing for the EP1 music for the DUSK Soundtrack page on the wiki.
opal plover
You saw my DM?
opal plover
Surprised murder machine inc is both Big John and Mama
crisp lion
yeah considering it's file name calls it a 2
and the 1st seems unused
Ok the page is done
tame sandal
changes it just for trolls
crisp lion
🤔
fast wigeon
brittle lark
ep3 leak
crisp lion
Founding of the Dusk Cult circa 1966
final estuary
is this Down On The Farm
crimson folio
Will the soundtracks get their own names or will they just be called things like “Duke Brothers Theme 1”
?
crisp lion
obviously they will get names
final estuary
likely will get their own names
crimson folio
Ok cool
final estuary
i'm sorry i just saw it and i couldn't pass up the opportunity
graceful wing
delete
brittle lark
cursed
final estuary
incredibly cursed
unique ivy
Dusk: Roblox Port
prisma kestrel
Roblusk
slate edge
Dusk on the playstation 5
lean wolf
HeReTiC
brittle lark
heretic is censored
final estuary
Not-believer
mild chasm
One cultist screws up and calls Duskdude "hexen"
mild chasm
You're witchaven
clever wasp
"You're on a quest for the sigil"
mild chasm
"You have sure caused us a lot of strife: veteran edition"
clever wasp
"You're alive ! What a System Shock: Enhanced Edition !"
those would work if Dusk was published by NDS, and not, y'know, New Blood
(or if Dave and Stephen just feel super chummy)
junior bobcat
10/10 meme
mild ginkgo
Make no mistake those two are super chummy
winged otter
steam bug i guess?
i almost forgot
DUSK is now in Early Access! Spread the word and don't forget to leave a review if you love or hate it!
opaque spindle
good
opaque spindle
Thats gonna be a longer wait I believe
mild chasm
Also nothing
clever wasp
why do I miss this game
fast wigeon
cos its a good game
is it still cool to hate minecraft or have people warmed up to it again
jolly mirage
half and half
final estuary
^
clever wasp
lotsa people hate the fanbase more than they hate the game
jolly mirage
most of the crappy people moved on to Fortnite
so now the community is slowly improving
clever wasp
minecraft server for NB discord when
fast wigeon
have you checked general lfg at all recently
clever wasp
nope
jolly mirage
oh
jade root
Ur on thin ice mister
clever wasp
talk about bad timing
fast wigeon
Yikes, you got yourself in a real pickle right there, mister!
jolly mirage
more Dusk Leak
fast wigeon
this dont even have anything to do with dusk anymore its just minecraft screenshots
fast wigeon
true
winged otter
2 episodes completed once again....ep3 is coming too slow😢
jolly mirage
Ep 3 is Cancelled
mild ginkgo
they are not from minecraft lol
fast wigeon
whats the progress on ep3 rn
jolly mirage
NB is taking inspiration from Valve now
mild ginkgo
i just wanna be clear on that
fast wigeon
is it still first draft of final boss
clever wasp
can we do something for the boss ? like, if Dave can beat it, it should be considered too easy ?
mild ginkgo
yeah, why would we steal sfx from a multi billion dollar franchise?
fast wigeon
and can the boss have more than one attack
jolly mirage
I see
clever wasp
or several forms
jolly mirage
No
winged otter
speaking of boss of 2episode...i accidently telefragged him
fast wigeon
everyone says that but i just killed him in one room on my first attempt
i thought the other teleporter lead to another boss, like it was a gauntlet
jolly mirage
also those screenshots were from an attempt to recreate the house from Clifftop
winged otter
when i fighted big mama boss i 3 shoted her with magic sword when dusk dude was drunk
clever wasp
to be fair we all know the bosses aren't the high points of Dusk
fast wigeon
big john feels like the only challenging one
clever wasp
he might actually legitimately be the best boss in the game rn
fast wigeon
if you dont cheese it
clever wasp
ye
winged otter
yeah, bosses should be better
jolly mirage
Im going to be completely honest
winged otter
but David doesnt like boss fights 😢
fast wigeon
i dont know why so many fps games think just having a buffed up enemy with one unique attack is acceptable for a boss
jolly mirage
Big John was very easy on my end
clever wasp
seriously, how much does Leon charge for a single boss ?
jolly mirage
I spammed rivets at him
fast wigeon
yeah if you rivet spam any boss is easy
winged otter
every boss is easy when you have riveter
thats my second problem of the game, riveter should be nerfed as fuck
jolly mirage
its just ammo for it is too easy to find
clever wasp
yeah, I need to jump
winged otter
rocket launcher with machine gun shooting speed? nah
jolly mirage
Rivets need to be harder to find
fast wigeon
ep3 might balance it out more
clever wasp
it worked in TF2 no it didn't, players complained until Valve nerfed it nerfed the Pyro for no real reason
fast wigeon
since it could have a lot beefier enemies
winged otter
but devs said there gonna be a balance pass for ep 1 and 2
clever wasp
which one is e2m3 again ?
fast wigeon
into the thresher
jolly mirage
I wan't more levels like Neobabel tbh
clever wasp
not the hardest level tbh
jolly mirage
I like the environment
fast wigeon
the one with the big open outdoor area with the blue sky
jolly mirage
no
clever wasp
yeah, really not that hard
jolly mirage
think Skylabs
fast wigeon
yeah its not that hard but its the hardest in the game
clever wasp
nowhere near close to the hardest level
fast wigeon
whats the hardest level then
winged otter
the dig on cero miedo with inruder mod is challenging
jolly mirage
the only boss I had a hard time with tbh is mama
clever wasp
Cutty Mines actually yeah it's Cutty Mines
jolly mirage
until I figured out you can just set her on fire and play ring around the rosie until she dies
clever wasp
so do I
jolly mirage
also
fast wigeon
one of the shortest and lowest enemy count levels in the whole game
clever wasp
when I played the game for the first time, the level I spent the longest time on was CM
jolly mirage
you can skip most of Ghost Town with an OOB Area
winged otter
hmm
fast wigeon
yeah in e2m3 you have to deal with like 30 enemies at once with homing fireballs and welders assaulting you
cutty is just some fork maidens and leathernecks in some corridors
jolly mirage
do you think they will pull an "Ultimate Dusk" and make an EP4?
fast wigeon
mayb
clever wasp
aka precisely where you don't want to meet either
opaque spindle
maybe maybe not no one knows yet
clever wasp
E2M3 is piss easy, you can turtle the fuck out of everything in the yard anyway
opaque spindle
Yeah but at that point you have the super shotgun and if you got secrets the riveter
So everything is a pushover
fast wigeon
if you cheese it its obviously going to be easy
winged otter
IMO monsters should have higher shooting speed and less dmg
fast wigeon
that would be interesting
opaque spindle
I think it has the perfect balance as far as shooting speed and damage right now
winged otter
monsters shoot too slow and peakaboo tactic is too usefull
clever wasp
or just running
fast wigeon
shooting speed is too slow if its lower numbers but if its large scale fights then the speed is perfect
clever wasp
you outpace everything in the game even without strafejumping
fast wigeon
almost everything
clever wasp
just take your shit and fuck off
fast wigeon
mama rockets require you to bhop
jolly mirage
also if you want more doom references. change the Duskmare warning to "WARNING: This difficulty isn't even remotely fair"
fast wigeon
no
clever wasp
yes
mild ginkgo
i dont know why so many fps games think just having a buffed up enemy with one unique attack is acceptable for a boss
fast wigeon
either have a tightly designed checkpoint system or let people quicksave imo
mild ginkgo
because pretty much the only other option is either too expensive, or a shitty puzzle boss
fast wigeon
too expensive?
adding one or two more attacks cant cost that much
i would have thought
clever wasp
hiring Leon is too expensive
mild ginkgo
having extra attacks wont make the boss much better
big john has like 3 attacks, is he good? no
clever wasp
he needs patterns
mild ginkgo
no he doesnt lol
the fact is, if you put any boss in dusk, its not going to be an engaging experience
the player is way too powerful
fast wigeon
yeah because big johns attacks are basically fire bullets in a b line towards the player, or fire grenade in a b line towards the player
clever wasp
s'why you want to go balls to the wall with bosses
fast wigeon
if a boss had like an aoe attack or attacks that fired set bullet patterns that could be more interesting
mild ginkgo
and thats why i said too expensive
i mean explosions are aoe attacks
and a bullet pattern is just more bullets
its not going to magically make the experience good
fast wigeon
i meant like when the boss does an attack that surrounds them in a radius or smth
mild chasm
I mean in doom the bosses are just really hard hitting morons that you shoot until they dies
fast wigeon
well its ideas to make the bosses more interesting
mild chasm
and nobody seems to mind
clever wasp
yeah to be fair the bosses don't even hit hard
fast wigeon
they do
mild ginkgo
its a problem with the power fantasy formula
when you make the player really powerful, the only option to kill them is just increase numbers really
and that doesnt feel good
fast wigeon
i think AE ep2 was a good example of an fps boss
its super efficient with resources cos it just does a jump attack and spawns enemies/projectiles
i think thats enough to make it fun and interesting to fight
mild ginkgo
it has one attack
opaque spindle
Amid Evil and Dusk are two completely different games tbh
Yeah they have a somewhat similar goal
mild ginkgo
i dont know why so many fps games think just having a buffed up enemy with one unique attack is acceptable for a boss
fast wigeon
ae boss has two attacks tho
mild ginkgo
it has one attack
fast wigeon
and movement patterns that normal enemies dont have
when i said that i meant stuff like the duke brothers
mild ginkgo
yeah i mean it has a unique movement pattern, ill give you that
clever wasp
I'm going to throw shit at the fan, but can any of you even name one actually objectively good FPS boss in the last 25 years ? cause I'm not sure that has ever existed, period
mild ginkgo
i mean thats functionally what the scrounge does
winged otter
WTB puzzle bosses in Dusk, instead of shooting boss you play match-3 game with him
fast wigeon
yea but like a cyberdemon is just a bigger imp that shoots rockets instead of fireballs
a baron is literally just an imp with more health
mild chasm
I think movement and attack patterns would objectively make for a more engaging experience but it still boils down to you bobbing and weaving as you shoot it until it die
fast wigeon
the scrounge cant really be compared to anything else in AE
mild chasm
So it's not really worth the effort as much
mild ginkgo
it literally just jumps in a straight line
fast wigeon
also ep4 boss was good
mild ginkgo
id be willing to bet it uses the same code to calculate its leap as the other enemies
yeah id say the ep4 boss is a better example of what youre talking about
but at the end of the day , i dont think that boss is particularly engaging
fast wigeon
not really nah
clever wasp
what do you define as particularly engaging then ?
fast wigeon
but its better than most fps bosses
crimson folio
Hey guys what have i missed the past 2 days ?
clever wasp
a boss that for all intents and purposes is just an enemy with more health ?
mild ginkgo
well like i said, i dont think good fps boss fights are common
because theyre extremely expensive
winged otter
but it could be worse...it could be a Cthon fight in Q1
fast wigeon
is there something about fps specifically that makes good bosses more expensive to make
mild ginkgo
yes
clever wasp
Cthton was at least sort of innovative in that you had to telefrag her
mild ginkgo
because you have to design yourself out of a hole
because the entire experience is predicated on making the player feel powerful
and in order to make the boss feel powerful, you have to design around the fact that the player is completely imba
fast wigeon
imba?
mild ginkgo
oof
clever wasp
or you go the obvious route and just make a Shadow fight
(not the shitty StH character)
if the boss is, at least ability wise, the equal of the player, you circumvent a very large part of the problem
just ask Xaero
crimson folio
wolfenoomnestein triad big jimmy
winged otter
@clever wasp no no, Shub Niggurath was last Q1 boss, im talking about ep1 boss
fast wigeon
chton was the dude where you pressed the 3 switches
winged otter
with that buttons pressing
mild ginkgo
the problem is the equal of the player would be completely ridiculous
as youve seen in duskworld
slate edge
kill final boss by turning on garbage disposal
mild ginkgo
you die in a microsecond
mild ginkgo
and thats ~EQUAL~ power, but really the player damage is nerfed compared to sp
fast wigeon
thats a mp game tho
mild ginkgo
yeah UT was designed for mp
fast wigeon
in sp your a lot more powerful because the dudes you are shooting arent real people at the end of another computer
so the player has a massive advantage, which is why the shadow fight is hard to make
mild ginkgo
which is why bosses in general are hard to make without spending a dumb amount of time and effort on it
clever wasp
I still think it would be a good idea for at least a phase of a boss
mild ginkgo
yeah i mean, absolutely
clever wasp
I remember one boss in a FPS I'm sure not many people played, Turok Rage Wars
one of the bosses split itself into 3
you had to kill two to damage the boss
mild ginkgo
i always enjoy a good vergil fight
clever wasp
then it warped away and regened the clones
fast wigeon
even vergil isnt a full on shadow fight
slate edge
Quake 4 fat guy boss
fast wigeon
just a boss that has similar moves to the player
mild ginkgo
well thats the idea of a well designed shadow fight
enough to make the player feel weak, but still accomplishable
because if he was actually as strong as the player youd be fucked
mild ginkgo
but this is where the expensive territory comes in
clever wasp
I mean it's easier to do than a Shadow of the Colossus boss
which are like the platinum standard of boss battles anyway
mild ginkgo
SOTC is puzzle boss territory
and while i agree, i love sotc with my entire being
puzzle bosses arent great in fps, a game about shooting
fast wigeon
sotc bosses are very specific to that game, which is good
but cos of that you cant really apply it to many other games
clever wasp
I love long, hard, tense fights, regardless of the opponent
mild ginkgo
your attacks externally dont do anything
clever wasp
kind of what I like in fighting games tbh
fast wigeon
been playing dmc 3 for the first time recently and they are super super good bosses
mild ginkgo
we love your work
clear badger
1v1 me
mild ginkgo
yeah dmc is great
fast wigeon
it was such a leap in quality from the clusterfuck bosses of the first game
like nightmare
slate edge
Replace the boss with a QTE
clever wasp
tbh I don't remember many boss fights that I found truly amazing in the past ten or so years
besides Asura's Wrath
and hell knows that is just not doable in an FPS
fast wigeon
yee
clear badger
A Superbuffed enemy with weak points can be fun as an fps boss
though its pretty generic
fast wigeon
not a big fan of those kind of bosses personally if the weak point is obscure
clear badger
probably best boss fight ive played is credo from DMC 4 on DMD mode
fast wigeon
havent played 4 yet
clear badger
oh damn, get on that 😛
clever wasp
besides the "weak point" thing is a bit old for FPS games
clever wasp
that'd actually be neat tho
not sure how doable it is
like, fucking Demon Hydra or some shit, shoot one head down, it regrows two
fight keeps getting harder
thorn trout
I think there's a bit of a misconception that the bosses in Dusk are lackluster because I don't like bosses so I didn't bother trying to make them good. That's not quite the case. I rarely if ever find bosses fun, so I have few ideas for how to make a fun boss, and originally I wasn't going to have any because, well, I didn't think I could design them. In fact I'm working on the final boss for Dusk right as we speak, and the way I'm having to go about it is completely alien to me: just throw out any decisions about what would or wouldn't be fun and try to make something that's challenging and more complex than fighting a normal enemy. \
Usually I design everything based on what I'd want to do, but in this case that's not going to work
clever wasp
serious question: did nothing we pitched so far even seemed like a good boss to you ?
today or before
thorn trout
So this isn't a "David's an asshole and since he can't have fun nobody else gets to," it's literally me trying to stumble my way through designing something that I personally do not find enjoyable.
It's like if someone sat me down and said "ok make a fighting game"
crimson folio
@thorn trout Ill gladly pay 6,66€ for an expansion pack
fast wigeon
i get what u mean
thorn trout
@clever wasp I don't know what is or isn't a good boss. Most of the time the examples people give of good bosses are encounters I can't stand, like nuDoom
or Zelda
crimson folio
wich = 8 dolla ?
fast wigeon
huh, i really liked the bosses in new doom
thorn trout
case in point
fast wigeon
what would u consider a good boss, if any
thorn trout
I just have no idea what people want, so I have to guess at it
fast wigeon
heck i feel like an asshole for complaining about them now
thorn trout
@fast wigeon There are only a few I enjoy, and none I can think of that I'd prefer to just fighting more normal dudes or whatever"
clever wasp
I mean no one is perfect
clear badger
I can chuck a few ideas around, I love the game and it would be great to be able to help 😛
Like in endless mi
clever wasp
also, we've prolly established by that point that good FPS bosses are few and (very) far between
clear badger
mode you feell ike a basass
so a final boss where you feel kinda OP would be fun af
clever wasp
yeah, but it wouldn't be a boss then
delicate violet
Vergil in DMC3
clear badger
the boss is op too
fast wigeon
i think a first phase thats challenging, and a second phase where you get to be OP would be fun
clear badger
thats the gimmick
delicate violet
that's a good boss
thorn trout
I think people will end up liking the final boss. I hope. Dave is also heavily involved in the design so that's been helpful
fast wigeon
did you put bosses in because you wanted to or because you felt thats what people wanted
delicate violet
When it comes to specific examples within FPS, I can't really think on actual GOOD bosses
clear badger
Like you pick the speed powerup, shoot up the boss, powerup runs out, go on defensive
winged otter
btw how many achievements is gonna be in Dusk 1.0?
delicate violet
Nu Doom are IMO decent but nothing great
fast wigeon
because if you feel like you could make more interesting stuff with normal dudes that could have been better
thorn trout
the other problem with designing bosses in Dusk are technical constraints. For the final one I'm having to code a bunch of stuff again from scratch. I can't use whatever AI/etc is already there for enemies
crimson folio
for me its the variety and the ambience in levels/envirnoments, and each episode is very distinct
winged otter
this is one of the biggest pros of Dusk, enviromental variety
thorn trout
@fast wigeon Dave (probably rightly) said that they kind of needed to be in a self-described retro FPS. Also way back originally the plan was just to do what old Doom did. Just bigger enemies with more life. But round about episode 2 it was clear that wasn't going to fly for the whole game. Hence The Guardian being a bit more of an encounter.
delicate violet
Why not have a final boss like Demon's Souls did
clear badger
What about a boss that includes all of the attacks of the flagships of the previous episodes and switches between them?
fast wigeon
maybe a mix of the doom style bosses and regular enemies in one big encounter could have been a nice compromise
delicate violet
Where is just a pathetic blob that makes no damage
And it kinda works since DeS has incredibly diverse bossfights
fast wigeon
ideally id want multi-phase super difficult and engaging shit for an fps boss but 500 made pretty clear that its not really possible for an fps like this
clever wasp
it's possible, it just needs a lot of involvement for not much payoff
clear badger
Rol lcredits
delicate violet
I thought FEAR made the first mech encounter a nice boss fight
Or just have them like Painkiller
clever wasp
I honestly think the best FPS boss I've seen is, rather ironically, the Campaigner from Turok
delicate violet
where while the bosses are not exactly an interesting challenge
they are spectacular enough to pull off the trick
fast wigeon
atleast fps doesnt have it as bad as RPGs in terms of the challenge involved in making a good boss
or immersive sims
thorn trout
I mean I should back up and say it's also very interesting (if stressful in this context) to stretch myself and try to get my head around designing something that I've never thought much about before. Might mean in the future I can provide more enjoyable boss encounters for whatever else I do.
@delicate violet I guess those are pretty cool yeah? If that counts as a boss fight? Still prefer fighting replica tho
delicate violet
I like the way the first deus ex handled bosses
fast wigeon
take ur time with it my guy
delicate violet
find their killphrase
@thorn trout Fighting replica, as a boss with similar abilities to you?
clever wasp
yeah about that, I take it that what you said about coding new stuff means there is like zero chance for having a Shadow fight or phase ?
fast wigeon
i wouldnt stress out about it too much anyway cos dusk aint dmc, it doesnt need a super super good final boss
thorn trout
@delicate violet naw I mean the normal enemies in FEAR
delicate violet
Ah, well yeah
thorn trout
@fast wigeon yeah but I want to do well by everyone
clear badger
I think if you managed to do something that pushed you, but wasnt TOO hard to the point you cant even understand where to start would be good
delicate violet
I also agree
clear badger
Like for the price as it is, your game already has enough worthwhile content
thorn trout
would be a shame if Dusk ended on a disappointing note after all this
fast wigeon
even if the final boss is somehow complete shit, the ending can still be really good
delicate violet
Dusk ain't DMC, Bayonetta or God Hand, I think the final boss shouldn't try to mimic those games but instead give a unique challenge with what it has
thorn trout
@clear badger yeah basically that's the goal :). It's much bigger and more involved than any boss encounter in Dusk so far but it's not... I dunno, DMC3 or anything :P
delicate violet
Like I dunno, a harder arena with a specific gimmick or set of gimmicks
fast wigeon
the boss fight itself could be just as complex as all the other bosses in the game, you could rely on the context and the build up to make it memorable
clear badger
As long as it lets us be fast, use the games arsenal and feel like a badass
it iwll be a good boss
fast wigeon
like really really hype up this final encounter
clever wasp
@thorn trout so, no Shadow fight then ? (also is your current iteration of the boss planned to be cheese/soap proof ?)
clever wasp
it's something that kind of struck me back in Doom
fast wigeon
shadow fight in an fps game just cant happen
clever wasp
been relying a lot on the rocket launcher
delicate violet
The problem with a shadow fight in a FPS is the same as CPU's in fighting games
fast wigeon
it would be deathmatch against an unfair bot
clever wasp
then Cyberdemon is immune to splash
thorn trout
I don't wanna spoil too much :)
crimson folio
clever wasp
fucked me over real good
delicate violet
You just can't make them without making them cheap or boring
clever wasp
it doesn't have to be an exact copy of the player
(especially here, as 500 pointed out)
crimson folio
Shaodw Link ?
clever wasp
in a way
delicate violet
shadow link is the worst example of a mirror fight
clever wasp
perhaps make it immune to splash damage, able to teleport, or stuff like that
depends which Shadow Link
fast wigeon
you would have to give it different attack tho, since dusk uses hitscans as weapons
delicate violet
Vergil, Jeanne and the devil hand are what you want to strive for
fast wigeon
i agree personally but thats debatable
crimson folio
i only fought the ocrarina of time one
fast wigeon
i can see why people like OoT just for the experience of the adventure
clever wasp
if you weren't going for the left crouch cheese, it was legit the hardest fight in the entire Zelda franchise
crimson folio
its huge adventure E🅱 ic
delicate violet
Artorias of the abyss is also a good example of a boss being on more or less equal ground
however, the boss I think gotta have some advantages as a CPU is inherently inferior to a human player
delicate violet
Dark Souls 3 has good examples too
clever wasp
Blackflame Friede !
fast wigeon
saw an interesting video a while back by matthewmatosis about the soulsborne games
delicate violet
Or pull a 180 ala Yoko Taro
and have the final boss being from a complete different genre
fast wigeon
he was saying that the abundance of shadow fights in the new souls games are kind of bad, because souls doesnt have very complex combat
thorn trout
@delicate violet well, in some cases superior. A lot of making AI look smart is actually limiting its information or giving it the ability to make mistakes
clever wasp
one of the old Worms dev once said "It's easy to make an AI that never misses. It's hard to make one that realistically misses"
delicate violet
Oh yeah, I didn't mean to have an AI that predicted every single move
clever wasp
yeah, that's Mortal Kombat's shtick
delicate violet
But the AI usually has to have some advantage, be it with attacks or sheer numbers
and Unreal
thorn trout
@clever wasp yup that's accurate
clever wasp
especially Unreal; ye
delicate violet
Skaarj also read your inputs like a bitch
fast wigeon
the skaarj dodge roll is ridiculous
clever wasp
even in Tournament the AI is just way too good
fast wigeon
its like they fucken detect your finger on the mouse and then roll away at light speeds
clever wasp
I'm fairly sure they do actually read your input
wasn't there some sample bot code at some point floating around ?
delicate violet
How the souls games, DMC, Bayo and God Hand makes these boss fights is by giving the bosses a wide arsenal of tools, and in case they don't have many
fast wigeon
tournament bots are perfect on 4th/5th difficulty up
delicate violet
give them multi purpose attacks
fast wigeon
i want more games like UT that let you mess around with bots in fun maps
fast wigeon
they are actually much simpler iirc
clever wasp
and they're easily tweakable to boot
delicate violet
you can even sorta chat with Q3's bots
clever wasp
only with Crash
fast wigeon
ut bots use navmeshes while q3 bots i think just run between item pickups
clever wasp
the other bots only answer once or twice, Crash has (a ton) of answers
delicate violet
I thought you could chat with the sargeant too
thorn trout
yeah the Skaarj dodge is one of the irritating things about Unreal combat. It's just a little too constant
fast wigeon
theres a part on one of the ship levels where you have to fight 10 in a row in a tight corridor
clever wasp
it makes Unreal 2 an absolute bitch to speedrun that's for sure
delicate violet
Unreal 2 is just bad
winged otter
just use hitscan against Skaajr
clever wasp
a game being bad won't stop me from speedrunning it if it's entertaining
hell, bad games speedruns are usually a great source of comedy
just watch AGDQ
unfortunatly Unreal 2 isn't entertaining
and pisstastically hard
fast wigeon
have any of you played monster hunt for UT
delicate violet
How much potential does dusk has for speedrunning btw
clever wasp
a fair bit
fast wigeon
i dont think ive ever watched a single AE speedrun
fps doesnt tend to make for good speedgame tbh
clever wasp
it's mostly run in episodes, I don't think anyone has made a single segment run since the release of EP 5 yet
fast wigeon
with the exceptions being quake and half life
clever wasp
you're missing a few
Halo speedruns are p good
then you have Goldeneye and Perfect Dark for old idjits like me
fast wigeon
im sure theres more exceptions but u get what i mean
thorn trout
Anything that doesn't have movement tech yeah
fast wigeon
^
thorn trout
although skips are fun
clever wasp
I live for skips
thorn trout
but like... Shadow of Chernobyl is a pretty sluggish run compared to something like Quake
though SoC is hilarious because they're doing all these out of bounds skips, and all they have to do is like literally climb up a box or something. It's almost as bad as Dusk.
fast wigeon
quake runs are just mesmorising
clever wasp
most FPS runs are sluggish compared to Quake in all fairness. especially modern FPS
fast wigeon
they are a confusing mess if you havent played quake, but once you understand whats going on quake runs are super impressive
like grenade boosting off of a fucken fish at 700mph
clever wasp
that's true of a lot of speedruns
I mean take Super Mario 64 as example
one second you see Mario having a seizure on stairs
then he achieves light speed
and phases through a door
crimson folio
XD
fast wigeon
i think mario 64 can kind of be understood even if you havent played it
thats also one of the best speedgames
clever wasp
honestly it depends on the category
thorn trout
Morrowind speedruns are the true lsd
clever wasp
70/120 stars are understandable for a first timer
fast wigeon
i watched a morrowind speedrun like an hour ago
thorn trout
after the first 5 minutes it's just incomprehensible seizure images
fast wigeon
like holy shit imagine how confusing a MW speedrun is to someone who hasnt played it
crimson folio
😂
fast wigeon
yet the complete fucking insanity and leaping across the sky and flying through walls while bashing a heart with a hammer makes perfect sense to someone whos beat it
clever wasp
that could be worse
imagine explaining that, in universe
"So a dude bought a few scrolls off of me, then leaped through the ceiling and now the Dwarves are dead or something, I dunno, ask your mother"
jade root
I can't wait for a David rpg where all the stats are completely unviable except for two of them
thorn trout
@fast wigeon yeah lol. And if they switch to third person it's just this "because you are headcrap zombie" mess of flailing legs and everything's covered in spell effects
fast wigeon
archery skill with only like 2 bows in the game
thorn trout
@jade root if that's referencing what I think it is that's a pretty good quality diss
crimson folio
universe? this is matrixx take red xanax go back to slep or take viagra
jade root
Someone watched an Arx vid recently
fast wigeon
yeee
clever wasp
on a serious note Daikatana wasn't that bad
thorn trout
ok good faith restored
jade root
Was talking to doritoburrito
clever wasp
it just crumbled under its own hype
fast wigeon
the same channel got me to try the E.Y.E demo too
fast wigeon
mandalore
fast wigeon
i spent like a month trying to find the intro music in the eye review
fast wigeon
i should prolly watch that
clever wasp
better than Boris' ?
fast wigeon
ive played stalker but it never really clicked with me
jade root
Yes
clever wasp
impossible
the Shashlik King is... king
actually I might not be talking about the same Stalker game now that I think about it
fast wigeon
theres more than one game series called stalker?
clever wasp
no, I mean not the same game in the series
fast wigeon
ive only played shadow of chernobyl
crimson folio
call of chernobyl ?
clever wasp
System on a Chip
fast wigeon
first played it when i was like 11, put about 10 hours into it and havent really touched it since
slate edge
gothic looks cool tbh
winged otter
it is cool
fast wigeon
i still dont know whether i like gothic or not
ive played through like 3/4 of it but im not really compelled to beat it or ever really play it again
fast wigeon
i wanted to play gothic 2 but didnt let myself until i beat the first game beforehand
jade root
but i played elex
fast wigeon
now i dont really care to play either of them B)
jade root
so i know what im missing
winged otter
complete Gothic 1 first if you have not played
fast wigeon
ultima 7 also goes into the "rpg i thought i would like and played for 3-4 hours then never touched again" category
winged otter
Elex is not bad but Gothic 1 and 2 are much better games than this IMO