#Women also objectify men...unpopular opinion

1 messages · Page 1 of 1 (latest)

agile fable
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My unpopular opinion is that women objectify men just as much if not more as men objectify women.

In my opinion, unlike men who objectify women as objects of possession or sexual satisfaction, women objectify men as a sacrifice to or an instrument of violence.

In my opinion, women's objectification is no less toxic for society than men's objectification of women.

I have this opinion because of how I am informed about women's sexual fantasies according to pop culture surveys.

And additionally, you might say that those statistics do not represent the majority of women but even the most vanilla of cishet female desire involves violence.

I say this bc even a girl that is not into bdsm still lusts after a male that will be a tool of violence if necessary to "make her feel safe and protected" as it were.

I also think pop culture contributes to this toxic view of masculinity with the classic trope that the "good guy" always seems to be just as violent as the "bad guy" with the only real difference being that the "good guy" is the winner....with some hand waving towards how the good guy was more moral...even though he was just as, if not more so, violent as the bad guy.

While the ways in which men objectify women is often criticized in contemporary media...I see virtually no push back against the ways in which women objectify men even though the gender roles that are being implicitly enforced are no less toxic imo.

dense sun
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I think you should go speak to a woman, sometime, before assuming what she's into for her.

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You'll find they're as varied as men.

agile fable
dense sun
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No such thing.

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Culture in general is self-contradictory.

agile fable
dense sun
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Sure there is

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And also toxic feminity.

agile fable
dense sun
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The toxic word is an adjective describing an individual

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It's about men who take the culture into an individual offense

agile fable
dense sun
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It isn't. And no one here is !allowing! anything. No one is allowed to allow but the law itself.

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Allowance is a falsivity and an appeal to a nameless authority.

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We're talking about what people do.

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How they act. Unsupervised.

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Or supervised.

agile fable
dense sun
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Law and ethic is either/or here.

dense sun
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(PS i dont like kant)

agile fable
dense sun
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The 'point' largely ignores patriarchy and its agency as well. So now you know how I felt reading it.

It sounds like a little boy complaining he can't get laid.

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No offense

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It really does

agile fable
dense sun
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No it shames them for what you mistakenly perceive to be their sexual values.

agile fable
dense sun
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Caveman argument there with literally 0 women cited

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Like did you go around and survey sexual.interest

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Or are you guessing based on movies and memes

agile fable
dense sun
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Its kinda hilarious how much you think you know.

agile fable
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furthermore women like protagonists in pop culture that are violent

dense sun
agile fable
dense sun
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No, it hasn't.

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You're bullshitting.

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And I'm done.

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Go get laid. Goodnight.

agile fable
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and appealing to what we don't know as defense

dense sun
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You have posted 0 evidence to your outstanding claim.

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Good. Night.

agile fable
# dense sun Good. Night.

sorry you feel that way...you have good night as well...I was being critical of culture...not women

dense sun
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Culture doesn't exist.

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Find a real boogeyman.

agile fable
dense sun
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Exactly.

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The gateless gate.

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The barrier of the patriarchs.

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You found it.

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There is no patriarchy.

Just assholes.

agile fable
dense sun
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Assholes who make blind arguments like this based off their emotions and what they would like to say about the world.

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Assholes like you.

agile fable
dense sun
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Cultures*.

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Cultures exist.*

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"Culture" is not a monolith.

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It does not exist.

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You cannot conflate them all into one entity.

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They contradict.

agile fable
dense sun
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Weed.

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Gay sex.

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Theocracy

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Womens rights

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Modern stage of Warfare

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Plenty of things I can demonstrate change from culture to culture.

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Age of consent even

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So like what are you on about

agile fable
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Those are not contradictions unless we assume they were never a part of or can't be part of culture

dense sun
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I do assume that

agile fable
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Then you abuse the term culture

dense sun
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You havent proven the Monolithic Culture yet.

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You're assuming it.

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So, i'm not. You are
Literally.

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Idk how to tell you this but you already know you cannot argue with me well.

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Please stop.

agile fable
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I did not say "monolithic culture" those are your words...but cishet culture is a real thing and it can be toxic and we can criticize it from both the masculine and feminine perspectives...a criticism of culture is not an attack on those that participate in it...it is an invitation to think differently...don't be so deffensive

dense sun
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A criticism of culture is succumbing to the ordinary and thus, lionizing the thing you express victimhood under.

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You're only empowering it.

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Criticise the people

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Not their herd.

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Don't give it mojo.

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Issa Spook.

agile fable
dense sun
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You do not, that's true

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I would do well to precide the hypothesis. Make it accurate and precise, less general.

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Be more specific about your issue and the particularly offending subcultures around it

agile fable
dense sun
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That's a valid point

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I commonly see white cishet females claiming to be allies for clout. Having achieved this status, they forget their duties to actually listen and make space for minorities instead of designating everything for them lol.

And men are a whole nother primitive rock of an issue here lol they either attune or dont its really kinda hard to get them to change political ethos

agile fable
dense sun
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Well, the sad truth is

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The world doesn't listen to the good guys

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It listens to the strong.

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To defend the world from evil, good guys need to respond to this

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The violence itself is Occam.

agile fable
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Classic means justify the ends set up...story of the world though I think you are right

dense sun
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We also need boogeymen for the bad guys

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Cindarella Men.

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They dont fear cops, they fear getting their ass whooped in public

agile fable
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Cinderella men?...what is that I have never seen that term before?

dense sun
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A boxing term and a russel crowe movie set in the 30s

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Not bad, try it out.

agile fable
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Thanks I was looking for a good movie to watch....I will check it out

dense sun
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Boxer stories are great for your question

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Sometimes a Joe just needs to feed his family.

agile fable
dense sun
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Yeah lol, walking home with a broken face every evening and dying young from brain hemmorage is pretty toxic

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But it paid, and it more importantly, it hired.

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People were very desperate in the Great Depression

agile fable
dense sun
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Oh my bad lol

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I did say 30s

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Making a point, the movie isn't too cheery about capital.

agile fable
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gonna check it out

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if I can find a pirated version or if it is on prime

leaden coyote
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I read at some point some kind of agreement that even if this is a problem (because I don't know if Poise believes in/acknowledges the fetishization of men), it can be blamed on the patriarchy...
I disagree. It can't entirely be blamed on a patriarchal social structure...

It may feel like a more true target because it is macroscopic but it's also a woefully adamant target.

Culture, Media, Public figures, and Education are more easy to address.

Women, additionally, hold the power in the dating market under patriarchy, and have been shown in a metastudy to frequently fantasize about domination.
https://doi.org/10.1080/00224490701808191
Perhaps a more detailed look at this point will be a direction to take this topic as it's pretty pivotal to upholding the point of female objectification of men... But it is just one element of the objectification...and a rather innocuous one (I don't think people should be shamed or criticised for their fantasies).

There is some truth at the core of incel ideology. As a part of uplifting humanity, we should try to see what value lies in all human endeavours and work with that. 🤗 What are the incels really on about? What is their cause? Can they assist in tearing down and debasing patriarchy? I think flawy was more than willing to take aim at it.

Many incels are the way they are because they either refuse to move with the times (conservative), or have moved beyond them (progressive).

Some commentators wholly demonise them as upholding patriarchy when, I believe, a substantial number are progressive, critical of patriarchy, and are over performing an oppressive gender role.

fluid swallow
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i think the only productive course this topic can take tends to be either talking about why objectification is raised as an issue or a shorthand for another issue, or actually running quantitative research

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i dont agree with the way poise approached the topic because of that. It's a reliable way to neutralise incel talking points yggdrasil mentioned, but i dont think flowy was doing that

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*flawy

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id say that objectification is an essential way for anyone and everyone to interface with other people and the world at large, and so when people criticise objectification they're singling out something specific (and specifically dehumanising)

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but i therefore think that the antifeminist "we should be egalitarian, not feminist" line of reasoning (here applied about the fact that objectification is ubiquitous) would also be misguided

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consider this silly example

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babies objectify everyone

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theyre dumb as hell lol they cannot read kant

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but that's not problematic because babies do not have a socially detrimental impact through the way they objectify women

dense sun
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Lol objectification is unavoidable.
I'm just saying you cant call all the inlet clusters of socidty out as one supercluster.

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Divide and conquer your injustices.

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That was my only point.

fluid swallow
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why cant you do that

dense sun
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Because not all of culture/society is doing it.

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Duh.

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There are bigger and smaller trends, prioritization of efforts, etc.

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Like religions that teach women lesser than men

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They kinda gotta go before we can really get any work done on the glass cieling.

fluid swallow
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but how will you talk about it at all

dense sun
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Precision.

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Example.

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Solution.

fluid swallow
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what the hell lol i am not gonna do that whenever i wanna talk about anything

leaden coyote
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I liked the point about how objectification is unavoidable. I'd never thought about it that way but it's still fair to talk about unhealthy/unjust objectification.

dense sun
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Nope but on a philo forum get ready for it. Especially if you do "yes all" anything

dense sun
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Moderation in all things is a solid byline for this

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It helps for a wife to objectify her husband if the bedroom needs that one night

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But we shouldnt tell boys they need to be Captain America Magic Mikes to be valuable.

fluid swallow
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boys in general?

dense sun
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Thats what this seemed to be about

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Like, from OP.

leaden coyote
dense sun
dense sun
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Female Gaze, perhaps, but i'd never call it such a reactionary title.

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I like what everyone has to say in response so far, though. Nuance abounds.

tawdry prism
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i just want to clarify that "men objectify women" and "women objectify men" as if there were these two mutually opposed antagonistic groups is wrong, and a common misreading of de beauvoir

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women also objectify women. some of the most misogynistic things ive heard have come from my mom (love her though). the point was not that women are strictly objectified by men -- they are, of course -- but more that women are objectified in society in general

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which naturally bridges to butler: gender is performative. women become women by mimicking a nonexistant original woman. this necessarily entails self-objectification.

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men are of course objectified, as a gender. this is trivially true because the dialectic is two-sided: objectification by a subject also entails objectification of a subject. i do wonder if the objectification (incl. self-objectification) of men is deeper these days than in de beauvoir's time though

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my pet theory is that men have become objectified in a deeper way than her time, and this is in part what allowed trans identity to cohere into what it is today. it requires a certain commensurability of the genders, not in social standing but in reification

tawdry prism
chilly hull
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About the culture point: don't forget content production is done by ppl, which will include elements of how they visualize (objectify?) others. Add to that capitalism which forces the existence of content creator that only follow these existing representations (or those of the ppl in charge who think they are the most rentable ones), reinforcing them

cold blade
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164 replies
net one downvote
needs more hegel
seong_hammer.jpg

chilly hull
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To say that "mainstream culture" shouldn't be taken as a judge for everyone, but mainly from those in charge of culture production

agile fable
short shard
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Purely from personal experience I have been objectified by girls in my class. Whether as a object of sex or as a object for their weird gay men fantasy, in fact one of them this weekend grabbed my hands and tried to pressure/force me to dance with her.
Women objectify and accessories men and gay men a lot and its really not talked about that much or its treated as fine/harmless

dense sun
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Agreed. I've been objectified that way before... by men, women, and women-led couples alike.

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Women use social stuff and sex the same way men use violence and warfare.

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A means to affluence.

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I suppose the worst part of it really is the rugsweeping and the idea that minorities, underdogs, or otherwise socially oppressed persons can't ever be problematic

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Because that's what allows it to perpetuate.

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It's almost allowing women to be creepier than men, in some aspects.

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At least men are "the devil we know" when it comes to the touchyfeely stuff

tropic socket
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yikes

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I have this opinion because of how I am informed about women's sexual fantasies according to pop culture surveys.

oml

eternal tiger
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"women want to be abused because that's what pop culture says"
yikes

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how the mighty have fallen

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can we have regular server back now

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i don't like this new era

tropic socket
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i appreciate the nuanced replies here but wow that OP

eternal tiger
cold blade
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I feel like the orignial post's thesis is just men are objectified and glorified as violence machines which is bad, which I think is a pretty agreeably statement

eternal tiger
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the bulk of the statement is that it's women to blame for some reason

cold blade
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maybe there's other nuances to the way it's being said that other people are disagreeing with

eternal tiger
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thats why we arent agreeing

cold blade
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really, I find it hard to read that from the original post

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maybe I'm just blind to some nuances

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The opener My unpopular opinion is that women objectify men just as much if not more as men objectify women doesn't really lend itself to the thesis much and I don't really know why it's there and could maybe be seen as kind of like blaming women

eternal tiger
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it's combative and inflammatory and makes me disregard everything else

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let's put Buber's ideas or something similar in SEL curriculum

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People in general need to understand how to appreciate other people

cold blade
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I guess it does sort of go inflammatory statement -> chunk guessing at female sexual preferences -> actual point

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those first two kinda rock the boat

tropic socket
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personally speaking, the initial reason it struck me was that the argument was presented in a contrarian form of "turning the tables" and saying "women also do X," as if an imagined response to pointing out toxic masculinity, which, while i guess not necessarily wrong in and of itself, already puts it on thin ice

cold blade
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I see that, like the title of the thread has already crafted a strawman

tropic socket
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and then the strawman is made flesh when they say that capital-W Women objectify men and they know this because some online pop survey gave them this idea of what Women think

cold blade
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I think maybe I try extra hard to ignore all the stupid parts of posts and extract what they're actually trying to say

short shard
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Tbh I don't think saying women do x to is a proper response but all I am saying here is that it needs to be more properly addressed

tropic socket
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sure, just not from the lens of OP imo

cold blade
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I looked backward and saw the discussion that was had did more or less get to my thoughts on the whole thing so I think it's best to just read the discussions, seong had a good little bit about babies reading kant

tropic socket
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"even the most vanilla of cishet female desire involves violence" bruh moment

eternal tiger
tropic socket
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big content warning on this one as it mentions ||rape||. but i saw this the other day, written by a man

SPOILER_unknown.png
eternal tiger
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this is strange argument from OP either way

eternal tiger
dense sun
cold blade
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that was kind of a bruh moment sentence but then the OP takes it in a different direction where they're not talking about sexual violence but violence in all forms ie violence against other men / "protecting" the woman (damsal in distress scenario / prince charming scenario), violence in defending their country (romanticization of soldiers), violence in general behavior amongst peers (being a bossy leader type, being disagreeable, "not taking shit" are often romanticized traits)

Since they mention BDSM it's pretty clear that sexual violence was on OPs mind but they didn't really expand on that point so it is pretty odd

It's good to point these out because I weirdly miss these when I read

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I think I'm overly charitable

dense sun
tropic socket
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yeah again i think you can take some points being made in good faith and i think that there was fine discussion there

eternal tiger
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everywhere else on the internet: takes your well intentioned carefully crafted argument and shits all over it
TPM: did you mean to say this? turns weird bigoted rant into a somewhat valid argument

cold blade
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I'm usually the person in my friend group who says questionable stuff and then has to spend an hour explaining what I actually meant so I think it comes from sort of empathising with that, or empathizing with people struggling to communicate about a touchy subject without mis-stepping

I'm giving OP the benifit of the doubt that the good conclusion of their paragraphs was what they were originally going for but maybe they just accidentally made a good point at the end lol

dense sun
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I can both directly relate to the phenomenon they're attempting to express and directly disagree with the causality and reasoning.

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Argument emphasized, but ultimately invalid.

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Girls have Barbies and Boys have GI Joe. The parents buy these for the kids to formulate ethical and aesthetic aspirations.

Maybe this thesis is upset at Gender Expectation and they blame it on sexual deviance or something, idk. The violence problem is almost removed from a stage of relevance imho because its a primal aspect of our personalities and will always find new reasons to intrude our behavior (food, money, sex, land, bloodfeud, and social hierarchy being a few examples).

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Solving violence is like a rung away from solving hunger.

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I think hunger is actually the easier of the two. Just produce and distribute enough food somehow.

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To stop violence, you need to be in the heads of every toddler ever all at once.

cold blade
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Do you think violence can consistently removed in all humans? I think there'd probably always some wackos that it wouldn't work for and idk what you do with them.

dense sun
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It would require a dystopian universe to handle that

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Utopia is around minimalization rather than removal

cold blade
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like killing bad children or something ya

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or some kind of wacky brainwashing

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Never really thought about how much of a gift it is that our hunger is finite

dense sun
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84s and Brave News, yeah

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Even the state hasn't been able to abolish violence

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It opted instead to enfranchise it.

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I think we need a paragovernment for internatl science, ethics, religion, and law.

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But im a crazy man

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I mean NATO was most assuredly tried before. This idea could start a clusterfuck plethora of Cold War Dark Ages.

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But we need a way to hold states accountable for injustices.

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And i dont mean by using methods privy to the state. That just allows it to excuse itself and its favorite operatives.

spice hinge
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So not sanctions against hiper-patriarchal societies, then?

dense sun
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How would you?

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If patriarchy just seizes the gates, why build them?

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It's a behaviour rooted in hierarchialism.

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Need to destablish that to ensure that patriarchy doesn't absolve control. Then we fortify equity.

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"Following the rules and protecting the regulations is binding oneself without rope. Moving freely vertically and horizontally without obstruction is the way of outsiders and the nightmare army.To preserve the heart mind and to purify it by letting impurities settle to the bottom in quiescence is the perverted Zen of silent illumination.Neglecting the written records with unrestrained ideas is falling into a deep pit.To be awake and not ignorant is to wear chains and shoulder a cangue. Thinking good & thinking evil are the halls of heaven and hell.

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A view of Buddha and a view of Dharma are the two enclosing mountains of iron. A person who perceives thoughts as they immediately arise is fiddling with spectral consciousness. However, being on a high plateau practicing samadhi is the stratagem of living in the house of ghosts. To advance results in ignoring truth; to retreat results in contradicting the lineage. Neither to advance nor to retreat is being a breathing corpse. Just say, how will you walk? You must work hard to live in the present and, to finish, all the more. I do not advise the unfortunate excess of continual suffering.

daring orchid
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This thread topic: young man discovers the patriarchy but still manages to fallaciously misconstrued reality of why these things happen and the true oirgin of what op has observed

dense sun
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Every construal of reality is missed.

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And i conceded an emphathetic point while denying validity only tbh

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What's this "true origin" you speak of?

daring orchid
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Men have objectectivefied themselves by the creating the basis of masculinity, and the purpose of that within the patriarchy

dense sun
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That's what I implied.

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Did you read my earliest responses?

daring orchid
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Thats not how it read across

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That could just be me

dense sun
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Everyone else seemed to understand me.

daring orchid
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We then yay!! Im on the same page lol

dense sun
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Yeah lol

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Its a lotta backreading

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I dont blame ya

daring orchid
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I have a very obtuse way of thinking, understanding, and explaining than I am understanding in the same way, vise versa

dense sun
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Speech is is own class in university.

leaden coyote
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Was the patriarchy co-constructed, or only constructed by men?

dense sun
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Co-constructed by concorage.

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There were female kings, oddly enough.

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But we know where it all led us to.

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"You gotta have babies for teh legacyyyy"

daring orchid
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Constructed at first by men but now is purpetuated by all

dense sun
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There's strong evidence of matriarchial civ they just didnt do warfare as well as farming

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So ya

daring orchid
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I personally don't see how any aspect of patriarchy (besides the yt supremacy aspect) could possibly be beneficial to a women, thus would be illogical to co create something that would negatively effect you

dense sun
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Well the pampered status.

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Women are considered more valuable than men, for one.

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More worthy of protection.

storm dove
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What the hell is this thread

daring orchid
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But it's a status that is still to a detriment

dense sun
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Yes for control

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Manacles, as my zen ramblings said

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Invisible manacles.

daring orchid
dense sun
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Women

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🤣

spice hinge
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imma make a weed thread

leaden coyote
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No

daring orchid
dense sun
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Yeh

spice hinge
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coz yall be smoking

leaden coyote
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Unless it's gang weed

spice hinge
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YES

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actually yes so much

dense sun
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Whats gang weed is it like diet

spice hinge
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"weed"
"weed gang gang"

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thats it thats the thread

leaden coyote
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Lmao

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Gang weed is a meme

dense sun
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Chang Gang (x24)

leaden coyote
dense sun
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Bottom sext

daring orchid
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Women are only the perpetrators of patriarchy, not as co-creators but at part of the cycle. Even "good aspects" or "benefits" to women are for control. This not a benefit

dense sun
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Yeah def not a net benefit

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I wasnt implying that, i was designating assigned priveleges. Like men can fight in public and get away with it

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Thats less true for women

daring orchid
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I don't consider something that can bit you in the ass as beneficial in any sense of the word

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Bite*

dense sun
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Sometimes a goddess bites you in the ass.

spice hinge
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This thread: ITT I just watched HoD House of the Dragons (2022)

dense sun
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And you never shoulda let her

dense sun
daring orchid
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But a privilege is inherently always beneficial. Its not a beneficial to women to be seen as the "weaker sex"

spice hinge
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it's better than the last dude

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but be careful Seong does wield the hammer

daring orchid
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Like this instance is always beneficial, but the access to that benefit does not always come from privilege or is 100 of benifit as a whole

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Yes its pros and cons, but the pros are a subsect of the cons

dense sun
dense sun
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I would define privelege by Access.

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Agency.

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And guess what? Its not beneficial for men to be seen as war slave mules. That's what "the stronger sex" gets you.

spice hinge
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this thread: tl;dr that R&M episode they're at planet men but it's actually planet women

spice hinge
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but this is a rather sensible topic and you cant really expect people to dig buddha dog poetry riddles in the middle of very crafted nuanced arguments

dense sun
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Of course not lol i was riffing off the idea of gatekeeping

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My bad

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Its a little dense for the casual point i wanted

spice hinge
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i mean, theres a limit to even how much information can be condensed in an internet medium discussion, however good it is

daring orchid
dense sun
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Yes, Great point

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I'm not devaluing the onus

daring orchid
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But do you see where I'm getting at? The idea of women objectfiying men is inadvertently a seld inflicted objectfication, by men, as a result to their creation. In the end patriarchy servers no one, as we expand the meaning of gender and personhood. And I would argue its not truly been beneficially applicable to any point in time

spice hinge
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"Her First Love" Form of Good damn shawty

unknown.png
dense sun
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Lollll i saved that one today

dense sun
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Saying men are objectified seems tone deaf

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We all objectified up in this bitch

daring orchid
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Im asking for confirmation because that is not exactly how I understood what you wrote. Im making sure i am indeed now understanding

dense sun
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My pardons lol. Philosophy can be a serpentine sport at times. No venom here

daring orchid
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I've realized i perceive my philosophy is a more artistic abstract way, than from solely logical technicality if that makes any sense

dense sun
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Well i'm technically a rote subjectivist, so I understand that.

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Zen isn't an ethos.

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It's an aesthetic.

daring orchid
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Yes yess

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But I can't make the way I consume philosophy other than aestheticly, I have to transform the technical into more obtusely artistic.

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Or referential

dense sun
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Semiotics may help you here

daring orchid
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Thats what my friend was saying I need to look into XD

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I haven't read alot of books or seen too many videos of these concepts more that as seeing the world as art I can identify them to an extent but in a more sublevel Wikipedia way XD

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And thats the extent I have to show I understand because I don't have the words

short shard
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I love that idea so much wow

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I need to explore that more

daring orchid
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To semiotics class grim

short shard
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yay!!!!

tawdry prism
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jesus you all are way too uncharitable to op

daring orchid
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Que?

tawdry prism
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reading a lot into it

daring orchid
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That's how philosophical discussion works? To fully understand you pick it apart, and put it back together.

dense sun
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I dont think OP was malicious in any regard.

daring orchid
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Same

dense sun
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But agency of objectification is a huge linchpin in my argument people have yet to inquire.

tropic socket
#

I carefully outlined above why I think the OP poses as an argumentative strawman

#

I'm not sure what was uncharitable about my posts

dense sun
#

Let's see lil play advocate. I wanna see the wit

#

Maybe in terms of poaching, could be a loaded line we missed

#

Idk i'm adhd i need to backread and edit a lot

daring orchid
#

creating an argument doesn't mean its personal. I'm creating a way of both engaging and understanding, while picking apart their understanding to either create a more proper assertion, or agree to disagree depending. their understanding and consequential critic is not of the person/persons character, but only to the matter at hand

tawdry prism
#

bs of course but not unheard of

#

just kind of a funny footnote in the history of feminism

daring orchid
tawdry prism
#

or at least i hope its a footbote

#

god lesbian separatists were so fucked up

dense sun
#

Eh, hegel and husseurl would argue that revolutions are moreso libras that havent finished balancing

tropic socket
tawdry prism
#

there was one who like married a man but argued it was ok because the man in question was quite feminine

tropic socket
#

interesting

dense sun
#

Autonominous ethics gonna autonominate

tawdry prism
#

also its not really doubtful imo that many women have rape fantasies, and that this fantasy stems from their position as women. some people were suggesting that to point this out is to suggest that women “want to be abused” which isnt true, and not something the op claims

#

it might turn out to be untrue but its a fairly popular psychoanalytic point in gender studies. identification w the aggressor etc

#

and i think porn site analytics also show this, but not sure how reliable that data is

daring orchid
#

It's more of a trauma response than maybe a fantasy or desire. as 1:6 women are raped/SA

#

(imo)

tawdry prism
#

i mean most fetishes are trauma responses to some extent

daring orchid
#

ye

tawdry prism
#

theyre like safe(r) ways to explore trauma and assert agency, fetishes are great

tropic socket
#

but also

tawdry prism
#

hahahaha ok fair

#

i like speaking out of my freudian ass i must admit

#

im also drunk which is my excuse if im wrong

daring orchid
#

Happens to the best of us

tropic socket
daring orchid
#

Which is fallacious in the sense of it is creating a false dichotomy of op's observations.

tropic socket
#

also while "women have violent fantasies" is logically distinct from "women want to be abused," it doesn't seem so far off in context imo

daring orchid
#

oh shit dude good point.

#

very nice catch

tawdry prism
#

like that is sort of a strawman but actually people do think that way

tropic socket
#

i don't see it rn

#

i'm pulling the "no u" card on the charitability thing

tawdry prism
#

hehehhehe

tropic socket
#

except in the opposite direction

tawdry prism
tropic socket
#

i don't think you're making bad points but i think OP is cringe and you're being too nice

tawdry prism
#

remember george

#

it was like this too before he was banned hahaha

tropic socket
#

💀

tawdry prism
#

but maybe that is too charitable

tropic socket
#

i think saying anything like that should be met with a big resounding NO outside of very nuanced discussion

leaden coyote
#

The one meta study I read on this mentioned a few hypostheses regarding the fantasy, trauma wasn't one of the top ones.

tropic socket
#

i have no idea why you would need to say "women want to abused"

#

that is pretty bad

leaden coyote
#

One hypothesis that they rated highly was a wish to be seen as irresistible.

tawdry prism
#

rhetorical flourish for provocation 🤔

#

my mentor used to talk like that lol

#

hed say some annoyingly provocative statement and then build dialectics around it

tropic socket
leaden coyote
#

Another was that female sexuality is generally repressed in society and they're more open to it than they show ~ so they fantasize about giving it up.

tawdry prism
#

repression of sexuality is traumatic

#

being potty trained is traumatic

#

freud said that

leaden coyote
#

Antinatalists claim that life itself and all aspects of modern society is trauma.
There is a point where I start to roll my eyes stop taking trauma (as such) seriously.

tropic socket
#

the text was simply "NO"

daring orchid
tropic socket
#

and rightfully so

leaden coyote
daring orchid
#

To say the act of full aspect if sexually repressed creates idk hair pulling fetish, by freuds logic it doesn't not work like that.

tawdry prism
#

have you heard of the german kinderladen btw? it was like an avant garde kindergarten movement. they really wholeheartedly embraced the idea and like refused to potty train kids, like a real conservative bogeyman

#

just as an aside

daring orchid
#

Fuckin germans

#

XD

tawdry prism
#

thats what nazism does to a society what can i say

daring orchid
#

Thank you for your anecdotes, I live of little tibits of infor, like a lil racoon

tropic socket
#

i can't find anything about this on google

tawdry prism
tropic socket
#

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kinderladen

Kinderladen

Ein Kinderladen ist ein selbstverwalteter („alternativer“) Kindergarten, zumeist von freien Trägervereinen (oft Elterninitiativen) getragen, in denen Kinder im Vorschulalter betreut werden. Durchschnittlich werden 15 bis 19 Kinder je Kinderladen betreut. Vor allem in der Anfangszeit der Kinderläden, in den 1960er und frühen 70er Jahren, wurden e...

tawdry prism
#

i only learned about it in an upper level college course about postwar european counterculture

daring orchid
tawdry prism
#

it was a class about poop fetishes and rastafarians and furries, it was great

tropic socket
tawdry prism
#

yeah i can dig thru my old course materials

#

i wonder what the german wikipedia page says

tropic socket
#

i see vague links that suggest such things but nothing that specific

#

it mentions some stuff

#

i used translate, also i know a bit of german

#

took some in undergrad

tawdry prism
#

ich bin ein amerikanischer spion

tropic socket
#

it just says this basically

In particular, the prevailing sexual pedagogy in the Kinderläden was repeatedly criticized.[11] In the Kinderläden, children were regarded as sexual beings and therefore, for example, mutual doctor games were encouraged.[12] Accusations of sexual abuse were also voiced in relation to the Kinderläden. [13][14] Christa Meves described the handling of sexuality in the Kinderläden as "early child seduction" that could produce "psychosomatic illnesses, severe hysteria, or sexual neglect."[15] In 1970, the German Association of Women Physicians spoke out vehemently against this "form of child seduction."[16]

Translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator (free version)
tawdry prism
#

yes i didnt want to mention the more troubling parts lol

tropic socket
#

doesnt say the other things unfortunately but maybe the sources would

#

anyway this thread is a trainwreck

tawdry prism
#

hahahahahaha

#

remember george

#

i miss him and his trainwreck threads

tropic socket
#

this is terrible

#

lillianbarbary.....

tawdry prism
#

yes queen ecto AKA laura

#

i feel like i assume everyone buys into freud as much as i do

dense sun
daring orchid
#

Holy ethics batman that is fucked

dense sun
tropic socket
#

this should become a pengo bread

tawdry prism
#

wait what

tropic socket
tawdry prism
#

holy shit lmao

tropic socket
#

LMAO

daring orchid
#

Omfg XD

tropic socket
dense sun
tawdry prism
#

i just stroll thru life assuming everyone is also a hegelian freudian post-trotskyist orthodox marxist

tropic socket
#

sounds right

daring orchid
#

Most people don't buy into freud because it sounds bat shit psycho even if I break down his concepts there is no conceivable way that his whole basis is projection alone.

dense sun
#

Freud had a coke erection issue.

daring orchid
#

Is not*

dense sun
#

Which sounds funny but its super important

tawdry prism
#

it is projection lmao i think freud admits it in interp of dreams

daring orchid
#

I.e. hes projecting

Like tf is "cock envy"

#

Gdhdhs he really was

tawdry prism
#

austro hungarian empire?

tropic socket
tawdry prism
#

kuk = kaiserreich und konigreich

tropic socket
daring orchid
#

Literally me

tropic socket
dense sun
#

Bruh whats with the jim hensen haunt

dense sun
tropic socket
dense sun
#

Ecto is scaring me

daring orchid
tropic socket
tawdry prism
#

ecto are u ok

tropic socket
dense sun
daring orchid
#

They're never ok. That is the plight of the mind

dense sun
#

Konigreich is Kingdom?

#

Oh wow so Konig is Kang?

tropic socket
dense sun
#

Why are you spamming all the myspace custom background ads

tropic socket
dense sun
#

Mmkay.

tropic socket
daring orchid
dense sun
#

I def dont get it, but its artsy i guess

tropic socket
daring orchid
#

Those fairies were my gay awakening

dense sun
#

The belle shit is just lewd

tropic socket
daring orchid
tropic socket
dense sun
#

All of these images are getting pretty annoying.

tropic socket
daring orchid
tropic socket
daring orchid
tropic socket
daring orchid
#

Hehehe

tropic socket
daring orchid
#

With the default dance music

tropic socket
dense sun
#

This is becoming malevolent

tropic socket
dense sun
daring orchid
#

Just just look up dancing fruit baby enrichment on yt and you'll understand what I mean.

dense sun
#

Yeah, that sounds like a complete waste of time ngl

#

These images are chatspam tier.

tropic socket
dense sun
#

Why tho

#

I'm too confused to cry

tropic socket
daring orchid
dense sun
#

You can't just use a simple declarative sentence?

daring orchid
#

I honestly can not. I can't properly articulate how the two things invoke emotions because I don't even know what that feeling is besides "these are similar" how? No fuckin clue

dense sun
#

Let's start with Semiotics.

#

What's it signify?

daring orchid
#

So the way I accommodate that, is being referential and hoping the person picks up on the vibes

dense sun
#

When is it used?

#

Yeah idk what "vibes" are.

#

Something people say when they're either oblivious or hiding something.

daring orchid
#

Ig you could categorize my lack of ability to articulate (really) any feelings is oblivious. But it's something so out of my perceived control at this point in time. I don't have enough practice learning to identify non referentially

dense sun
#

So are you hiding something or is this just rando

tropic socket
daring orchid
#

No?

dense sun
#

Okay.

tropic socket
dense sun
daring orchid
#

Thats just my explanation is that it's a vibe that I feel (but can't break down) that puts those two ideas into a box of some sort of category or genre that I also don't have words for

dense sun
#

Neither a category or a genre then.

#

Those have names.

daring orchid
#

But that doesn't mean I know them

dense sun
#

I can't identify any categorization whatsoever here

#

All i see are some reaaaaallly skeevy gifs

#

And i'm uncomfortable.

daring orchid
#

Well 1 because you didn't look at all, and 2 I don't have the ability to explain it further than a feeling

tawdry prism
dense sun
#

I don't wanna poison my searchbar @daring orchid

daring orchid
#

Incognito

tropic socket
dense sun
#

Or honestly even investigate.

#

I feel sick rn.

tropic socket
tawdry prism
#

i think laura just wants to kill this thread

daring orchid
#

Dew it

tropic socket
dense sun
tawdry prism
#

have you ever considered though that women also objectify men

tropic socket
#

i

cold blade
#

This is the 2nd most replied thread on the server I think

tropic socket
cold blade
#

Gotta say I love the direction it's taken in the last little while

tropic socket
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tawdry prism
tropic socket
tawdry prism
cold blade
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tawdry prism
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