Momentum redirecting teleport destinations

[fringe laurel]

Many bhop maps and a few surf maps (surf_jusched) feature misaligned teleports. People have been running maps for years with telehop strats that rely on strafing in different directions. There have been a lot of discussions about this topic in the past. I think it would be a good idea to be able to toggle whether a teleporter redirects your speed or not on a per-map basis or maybe a per-teleporter basis. There are some stupid ones but I believe that the choice should be available for porters. As of right now there's no easy way to recreate the old behavior and any fix to the bsp may break in a future update.

#general-bhop message

The rationale for blanket applying this change is that it's bad for maps that have multiple fail teleports where u can fall into the previous one, but you could perhaps use the keep z velocity on those tele triggers or (maybe???) use the momentum progress stuff / old fashioned filters to make it so that you don't get sent back

A lot of momentum changes are like "this is horrible game design and should be changed" which is completely reasonable because there's a lot of horrible game design. But this stuff wasn't really designed by anyone, it appeared over time. It's possible to fix everything that's wrong with technology but at times it may not even be worth it to remove things when people have gotten used to running the map with those flaws.

Horrid inconsistent trigger pushes that only give the right units 5% of the time should be changed in the worst scenarios, but I think for something like this, the momentum team should consider at least allowing porters the option to preserve the old behavior

[prisma tree]

Honestly believe telehops should be added back to bhop in its original state, nojump slopes and cboosts are one thing but telehops have been a core skillset for running maps since forever. Removing them is just removing an entire skillset just to make it so you can't fall back when you fail when that's more so a mapper problem rather than a player/game issue.

monster_jam, fps_max, addict, pharma, epiphany and like 30x others would have their records pretty much become obsolete/uncomparable to momentum, nojump slope already does that for some but removing telehops affects a lot of others in a much bigger way.

telehops are also way easier/feel better and feel more consistent when you're playing on lan ping rather than 50-100+ ping which is pretty much the ideal position to have telehops in.

[dark sage]

I would also agree that telehops are a important part of bhop as is strafing learning how to enter and hit the TPs at the right angle is a skill set of a map and alot of mappers, the biggest issue with teleport was ping(not a issue on mmod) where higher the ping you could cheat the tp but that isnt a thing anymore so no point in worrying about that

there is also maps that are made with the telehops in mind as it was really simple to make maps to have cool looking telehops which would now just be pointless, bhop has removed alot of core elements over the years and its just causing the gamemode to become more bland

[midnight locust]

Just wanted to say that surf also has TP strats, like falling into a TP to make you land faster on the next stage. I personally like telehop routes and strats just because it makes the map more interesting and it feels like an organic speedrun skill. I'm sure you can draw lots of similarities to speed running in other games that have similar skillsets.

[forest sparrow]

hard to say much that hasn't already been said here, but I also agree that telehops have a place in bhop. especially considering the opportunity momentum provides for them be 0 ping universally, itll be a chance for bhop to take another step forward without any backwards

i cant speak for any other gamemode than surf, but compared to surf, bhop has always had a very hands-off approach to what is and isn't allowed, and i'd really like to see that preserved in some form. nojump slopes can be debated for a while, but telehops have a definite place in the game (imo crouchboosts and other trigger abuse too, but thats another conversation)

[dapper basalt]

I feel bhop definitely needs tele hops, if maps were intended to have only straight forward directed teles the mappers would have aligned them that way, almost all tele hops on any relevant map is the way it is intentionally

[latent saddle]

Telehops 100% should be in bhop, at least for teles to the next stage, tho there are some maps where you telehop into fail trigger (e.g. bhop_toc). Also want to remind that there's a misaligned teleports tag for bhop maps. Leaving the css behavior by default and let mappers/map porters change that would be best option imo, now there isnt a way at all to replicate css teles

[minor cape]

Performing an extra maneuver to optimize a teleport is definitely interesting and adds some skill to a route. The thing is that it often amounts to pure memorization which, in my opinion, is just a chore rather than a show of skill, and is not in the best spirit of the gamemode.

In cases where you aren't able to enter the teleporter at the right angle ahead of time (including when the teleport is a 180 degree turn) the maneuver you have to do after teleporting is pretty rough. It just feels evil, and in an ecosystem where you can now play any map you want at any time, I'm not sure why someone that isn't already on board with this would pick these kinds of maps (not that everyone has to like every map).

Momentum Mod is the opportunity to smooth over things that there hasn't been an opportunity for before. These are usually either things that started one way and once leaderboards were built up it was too late to change, and/or were things that people just didn't know how to fix.

We of course have fresh leaderboards here, and while parity with the past is a high priority, it's not the only thing that matters (and there are already other ways Momentum is not 1:1 with other places). We don't consider changing things lightly because we know these modes are organic and that's what makes them interesting, but to me this is something worth changing.

Getting tossed backwards when falling is 100% worth changing as it is very frustrating to the average player that is not just grinding for a perfect run. Having your view and velocity angles forcibly separated when you fail is also completely unnecessary.

Non-fail teleports don't necessarily have to change too, but I think they take away a lot more for the average player than they add for high-end players. I would rather reduce unnecessary frustration for the average player, since there is still plenty of other interesting content for skilled players to excel at.

---

Also, I don't think it's the case that maps were made with intent to make players do weird maneuvers through teleports. I would be interested in seeing examples of maps that definitely meant it and where it is actually interesting and not just memorization.

And as plar pointed out there is a map tag for this right now, but that would have been added by a community member to a public list awhile back and we still need to revise the tags. Also for perspective, the reason for many tags like this is to help players avoid controversial mechanics rather than just to help them find mechanics.

[stray chasm]

Why are we even playing momentum mod bhop when this guy wants to remove telehops because they are "a chore rather than a show of skill". No jump slopes, telehops, and crouch boosts have been in CS:S, the main outlet for bhop, for a very. very long time. Are you guys really okay with this "it's too hard" excuse??? HELLO?

[raw bolt]

As much as getting upset about it ain't helping the cause, I share that feeling just above.

It's not because you find it irrelevant and don't own the mechanic knowledge that it is not worth keeping and not an expression of skill.
I personally don't do much bhop and rarely encounter that mechanic in surf, I used to consider it RNG and stupid as a begginer, but as I got used to it and understood how it worked, it definitely turned into a skilled and manageable mechanic that I like to the point of defending it.
There are many arbitrary decisions that are made on momentum mod that feels like a middle finger to the old players of the gamemodes simply because they are based on lack of experience from the people making that choice without knowing better in my opinion.
That is driving people away from the mom project rather than unite them, myself included, I came back for the 0.10.0 after years of not playing the playtest to see if things improved, which is mostly the case, beside for that kind of arbitrary decisions, that wouldn't be up to debate if a poll was submitted to a big enough chunk of the skilled people from each community that do actually knows the ins and outs.

I'm not saying that thoses decisions aren't justified by any means, but the annoyance to people that played the gamemodes for years if not decades outweights the begginer skill issue that can be overcome by simply playing the game and getting better, teaching them how the mechanic works is better than nuking it out, just cause fuck telehops, otherwise bhopping wouldn't even be a thing in the first place.

Please dev team, embrace the diversity over smoothing everything in an unfun way 🙏

[midnight locust]

Why are we even playing momentum mod bhop this is a pointless outlook and if that's how you react to change then momentum isn't for you. Like Rio said, momentum is a new platform that can make changes that other platforms can afford to make anymore, you can play your game mode on your established servers and enjoy yourself like you have in the past if you really want too.

Rio is correct that telehops are cancer for 85% of the playerbase and even as someone who isn't "new" to bhop, being sent backwards because of a bad teleport placement is AWFUL. There are maps where the mapper clearly just copy pasted teleports and never changed there angles.

However I still think that some maps are interesting enough to keep telehops, I'm still in favour of them as long as they don't make the map painful to play and make them fun to learn.

teaching them how the mechanic works is better than nuking it

[minor cape]

Thank you for that, and yeah before anyone else runs with this "catering to beginners" spin on anything I said, unaligned teleports are not something that is universally enjoyed at any particular skill level. This is not about difficulty. It is not something that everyone suddenly prefers with practice.

[raw bolt]

There's a difference to make between each, there are intended telehops people want to keep, and unintended behaviour like the getting tossed backwards on fail that should be dealt with, but it should be defined per case basis by the mapper/porter.
Like the OP post description asks, it's not one or the other, but rather having the choice on a mapping standpoint.
The issue people have is not Old VS New, but rather the binary situation between one another (that's the point I was trying to make in my previous message btw).

[midnight locust]

I think the best outcome would come from feedback during the maps porting, I'm sure everyone can agree that being throw back a stage from a poor teleport is behaviour momentum doesn't want. But maps that have heavy use of the tech should be preserved, bhop players will just have to be active when maps are being ported and give that feedback on the map threads when they appear.

I'm sure most mappers will look at WR route at least once, so they can check in with the community to get feeback when needed.

[prisma tree]

I'm pretty sure most of bhop would be active/switch over if this was the case, seeing as how almost all of us were waiting for a standardization (also when offstyles gets ported over, since that's where 90% of the bhop playerbase is now) A lot of runners i've messaged and people who just played with no records who i've known played for a long time have agreed that it's annoying to fall backwards but removing telehops as a blanket fix to it is just not it. Being able to decide whether or not to use old or new when the maps are being ported makes everyone happy. Once again no one is arguing that falling backwards isn't annoying, but being able to decide when a map should have old telehops rather than new would be very nice.

I'm just gonna list the maps I believe should keep old telehops, most of them have good mapping to the point where you don't have to worry about falling backwards because i still stand by it's a mapping issue rather than a game/player issue.

bhop_badges,bhop_fps_max,bhop_monster_jam,bhop_pharma,bhop_exodus_final - those are the main ones where telehops are actually a skill based mechanic that's in the route for it and would feel very awful to get rid of, others can add to the list but these are some main ones I've seen listed/said.

Sorry if this formatting is cancer, I'm just putting my thoughts after thinking about it for awhile - I honestly believe that by either going with one or another rather than just being able to use both would push away the community rather than unite. As it stands, removing telehops in this state I've heard a lot of good players complain about and throw a fit and say they have no reason to play momentum but also keeping old telehops where most maps have awful mapping to where you constantly fall back, i can see new players just not getting into the gamemode and thinking its redundant. I directly think that keeping both would actually make this game succeed in finally pulling everyone into one game rather than split between 4 different ones, as long as the people are actually dedicated to making sure that old telehops are kept when it's good to do so and making sure maps have new telehops that would otherwise cause new players to get frusterated and quit.

[midnight locust]

Perfectly reasonable and if the devs agree then I'd be happy to prioritise porting telehop maps, that way the maps get the feedback they need and established players can actually see momentum is trying to keep old tech 👍

[fringe laurel]

it's ok if its disabled by default

but let us have a checkbox or something to make certain maps have it

but ofc that may be inconsistent

IDK

i hope that this thread gets the ball rolling on a discussion

cause i think this is important even tho im a surfer

I do think that the new teleport behavior is nice and a very good qol change but also there should be a way that old maps with established routes cna have the old one

and a guideline for "if falling backwards is a problem then heres how to make it not happen" cause i feel like there are several ways to make it not happen in momentum mod

[mint quest]

I agree with it as a per-map basis.

My question will generally fall back to "So what about bhop_eazy?", because it's a map made for new players, at a time where players didn't even have the speed for it to matter.
Because of how Momentum Mod lets us re-evaluate these older maps, it'd be good to have that discussion in mind for each individual map where it might affect routing.

I'd also look to surf, and ask if you'd want surf_jusched fixed? Because that map appears to be straight up made to use a wrong direction on tele.
https://youtu.be/A7s7vSgZXlg?si=nJNsx1y7O8xWAsdm&t=52

While I somewhat disagree with how some of the teleporters function in, say, bhop_badges, a lot of them also do add a lot of interesting changes to the routing, and in a way makes styles relevant for "normal" bhop.
For some examples, I personally have no issue with how the teleporters work, except for the drop-spin tele. This is ignoring the other issues bhop_badges teleporters have, specifically the height they are placed at, causing players to lose speed unless entered in a very specific manner.
https://youtu.be/yfKsY8ePlMc?si=tHjwKrQuats9BIJC&t=46

One thing I'd like to bring up for consideration when evaluating if any particular teleporter should feature new or old styles of teleporters, is the target audience of the map.
You're not going to catch me arguing for fucked up telehops in bhop_eazy, but you can get me on-board with most of the teleporters in bhop_badges.

[fringe laurel]

idk i wanna keep it cause its funny lol

[mint quest]

And that I consider terrible reasoning, but thus our opinions differ 🙂

[fringe laurel]

they literally put brushwork there to tell u to turn ur camera

funny

[jade tapir]

I think it's important to at least have an option for that. Check out b5 on tropic2, Mr. Burguers had to do some source magic to make it work

[fringe laurel]

yes.

[fringe laurel]

i agree tho its not the end of the world if it doesnt have that

it's much more important for stuff like badges

[midnight locust]

I feel like surf_jusched is an easy answer, The mapper made it that way intentionally and the map literally tells you to turn around.

[fringe laurel]

they probably didnt

they kind of sucked at hammer im presuming

and just bodged up a solution

it gives the map character tho imo

[midnight locust]

Even so, the arrow is there to tell you

[fringe laurel]

some stupid shit that idk if they tested on 66t

[mint quest]

Sure, you can make that call, but then where do you draw that line between what seems intentional, what feels intentional, and what feels perhaps better because of it?

[fringe laurel]

saying its not that hard until the end when its a t6

thats funny as fuck

i think that the 180 turn is harmless fun

[midnight locust]

Hard to define imo

Better left to a per map discussion

There are too many variables to have a 1 size fits all rule

[prisma tree]

goes back to the same idea that it should be decided when the map gets ported

[fringe laurel]

i feel like the equivalent to this in surf is whether momentum should keep booster edits that servers like ksf did to older maps

[prisma tree]

in the end its as simple as this - the entire reason almost for this change is to stop people from following backwards when failing (as far as i understand thats the main basis)

once again, its a mapping problem

[fringe laurel]

its kind of an unintuitive mechanic too

u have to look at a replay or smthn

[mint quest]

Another fun one to consider will be bhop_exodus. So eh... yeah.

[prisma tree]

you can also look at it this way, some people use failing intentionally to set up shortcuts and this also would mess up those shortcuts because of how it works

[fringe laurel]

but if its such an important skill its prolly good to have some prior warning or whatnot

[prisma tree]

does momentum have mapping guide lines @mint quest

[fringe laurel]

it does

[midnight locust]

probably the best example

[mint quest]

There are porting guidelines, yeah

[prisma tree]

I remember this being a thing we talked about once with removing shortcuts that are just not as fun or don't make sense and you and others were fixing maps for momentum

I honestly believe that when maps get ported, if the current route has telehops that is actually interesting, and it's just not one singular one - i think should have the setting turned on for old telehops, for old maps that have shortcuts that require you to go backwards and fail intentionally to do a shortcut (there's like 10 i can point out), shortcuts instead get patched and still keeps new teles

dk if that makes sense, but you can apply it to bhop_eazy, deciding now after thinking about it the old telehops are kinda more interesting and way easier on 0 ping now

it's more than one and even though you'll fall back, it's a starter map so it's not really a problem especially with auto, and tbh bhop_eazy telehops were pretty much the introduction to telehops for a huge majority of people

[fringe laurel]

i feel like u can fix the falling back making you lose progress on a case by case basis

too

[midnight locust]

I genuinely hate every instance of falling back

Never had it happen in any other mode and it makes bhop maps feel broken

[prisma tree]

majority of the maps you can actually fall back on and it's insanely annoying, 95+% of those maps don't even have telehops

[midnight locust]

sure, but I think that's one thing that should be limited

like you said before, if the TP isn't interesting then fix it

[mint quest]

bhop_eazy genuinely have interesting telehops if it was to remain 'unfixed'.

[midnight locust]

I need to go play eazy unfixed, I forget what the changes are

does S2 spawn you backwards?

[prisma tree]

every telehop in eazy is 180's with a/d

the problem with the map before is if you had 200+ ping, you could pretty much just cheat the tele

[mint quest]

They'd be annoying to do, no doubt, and make running it akin to tech rather than strafe, but that's a decision that would then need to be considered on porting.
Mind you, I don't think there's a 'correct' answer here, but while I think the map is more interesting to run with telehops, I still wouldn't argue to keep them. On that particular map.

[fringe laurel]

yeah if this is the first map people play they will think bhop is broken lol

[midnight locust]

I've not played the unfixed version, but I can see it being more annoying than fun, Plus new players will suffer more than experienced players will gain

It's a 25 second map, like...

[prisma tree]

well are new players expecting to be able to get records off the bat, or instantly be good at bhop. like i said, bhop_eazy was the introduction to many for telehops and at its most simple form

[fringe laurel]

the solution is there needs to be a spotlight for good maps for newbies

[latent saddle]

funny that bhop_eazy wr was set with 150 ping

[midnight locust]

obviously not, but I think in eazy's case I would argue for them to be fixed (Personal opinion)

[prisma tree]

games have unintuitive mechanics that are popular that make it interesting, and i personally believe telehops are one of them.

[mint quest]

My argument for that map in particular is that it's not unlikely that even early on, it's a map players might want to try and grind for better times.
And then again, I see the argument that it's a nice, soft introduction to learning telehops. I just don't think that's the map to do it on, even if it's great for it in its original state.

[prisma tree]

the only solution i see to that is, put on ur hammer hat and get to the solution @mint quest

[fringe laurel]

telehops are fun to watch

[latent saddle]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ES1srXu1BEs

[mint quest]

You want me to finish every project of mine, and start new ones? I can't even finish one map!

[fringe laurel]

cute

[midnight locust]

telehop can be so cool

[prisma tree]

this will be a lot to actually read, but condensing it back to the actual subject @latent saddle that map could be a good introduction if made easier

[mint quest]

I agree with amr, as it stands it's a bit too harsh for when players could begin to handle it as a mechanic

[latent saddle]

need telehops in learn section

[mint quest]

Need learn section in general, but that's a can of worms the team is not ready to tackle quite yet

[fringe laurel]

we need learn section that even goes up to the very most advanced stuff

[raw bolt]

What about having a very skilled and smart mapper to make bhop_eazy_th which would be an higher tier version of the same map? 🤯

[fringe laurel]

so much stuff thats gatekept knowledge

[mint quest]

"But Aux, there already is one" Yeah... And it's fine, but it doesn't quite work with the engine in its current state

[fringe laurel]

mot rlly gatekept but u have to ask the right person to know about it

just not popular

[prisma tree]

in the end though, can go back and forth but should probably wait for rio/gocnak to say whether or not they'd be fine with a option to enable/disable new tele logic for maps on being ported/made then go after all this

feedback thread is on 100 responses now

[raw bolt]

Is the solution of having a switch on per map basis really is the best solution?
Rather than having 2 different entities (I'm no mapper, I don't know what teles actually are, and how to build them, I just jump into them, forgive me) available to the mappers to pick when designing their maps ?

[fringe laurel]

could be a key value in the info_teleport_destination entity itself?

[latent saddle]

better be in trigger_teleport, so teleport to a stage start can be like css and fail teleport to the same destination in momentum way

[mighty flame]

idk, the map even with misaligned tp's is very easy. so you are not making the map unplayable for new players. realistically they will fail most stages either way and not be flying thru. so having fucked misaligned tp's if the existing community wants that feels fine to me. tho i do agree, it always feels like dogshit mapping or simply broken to anyone not familiar with it. in the end i personally still belive it should always be up to the mapper and not the community. unless ofc mapper is not around anymore.

[mint quest]

I surprisingly also agree with mapper supremacy.

[latent saddle]

I agree that new players wont have too much trouble if they just lost all speed or fail right after tele. Even might be better that they would want to know how to avoid that if they try going for a better time. that's how i learnt telehops back when i started

[fringe laurel]

one thing with telehops is you have to go into noclip to see which way they should take you

it's inherently not intuitive to know which way to telehop

i agree it's a fun mechanic though

and I'm sure as you get better you can know which way to do it by trial and error

[raw bolt]

Adding a warning nearby THs with indication would definitely be a polite way to use them, even tho many mappers wouldn't disclose it for the troll

[latent saddle]

I believe there was a plugin on some server that shows with an arrow which direction teleport_destination is

[mighty flame]

idk to me that defeats the whole point

and i personally dont enjoy misaligned tp's at all

but if the mapper intentionally put it in without a warning thats how he wants the map to be, first time you get fucked

[forest sparrow]

not necessarily, but i understand what ur getting at

itd take checkpoints or noclip to get around longer trial and error

[forest sparrow]

classic fuckithops exclusive 🗣️

[raw bolt]

Yup die'n'retry psychology, if mapper wants, you suffer

For that specific case, I don't think adding an arrow on every telehops like this plugin did should be the final word, but I really wouldn't mind letting the choice to the devs, if they want to say F mappers, I'm standing in line (altho mapper troll can be funny even when you curse their family tree)

[fringe laurel]

for the record i fully agree with this

[delicate sentinel]

+1 for let mappers do what they want

I don't like fixing things in engine personally

if the map is garbage put it in unranked

[cobalt meadow]

im gonna walk around with a sign that says "DONT TOUCH TELEHOP"

[dapper basalt]

All of high level bhop is memorization/chores.

You don’t just jump through a map and go oh wow I got wr.

[fringe laurel]

my feeling is that it would be a good idea to make this a key value that is encouraged for new maps and modes that dont like telehops, and disable it overriding the teles

(or something that makes more sense in this vein)

[cobalt meadow]

New players, who want to learn bhop would want to learn telehop? Its not something extremely hard.
NEWER people who just bhop casually for fun would never even think telehop is a issue? They wouldnt even think about it

Its silly

90% of the maps doesnt even utilize W strafing out of a tele

[fringe laurel]

another thing tho that may be an issue is if every map handles this differently, it may turn into an absolute unmitigated mess

so something like this shoudl be explicitly in the map porting standards

[jade tapir]

telehops are also a thing in jump modes ( completely unrelated to bhop telehops tho ) and every map handles that differently also, some allow it, some block it

[fringe laurel]

and the tag is good

[cobalt meadow]

exactly

[boreal geyser]

Not knowing how telehops work also encourages new players to utilize the lobby chat and discuss with other players as well as check leaderboard replays and utilize learning resources.
I learned how to telehop by interacting with community members and copying. I would not want to take away the joy I felt when I managed to telehop and mimic a technique used in the wr replay, making me believe I had “leveled up” in skill.

[cobalt meadow]

100% agree

[fringe laurel]

bump

[tawdry karma]

Hey guys, we will be visiting this and cboost behavior soon, just fixing some more easy win crashes and bugs first. I think it's important to be map specific, maybe default to the current behavior but opt in to the old behavior for existing maps or if a mapper specifically wants that

[fringe laurel]

yeah. i think that thats fair