#[Official] Loot and Experience Changes

1 messages · Page 9 of 1

fervent hatch
#

I know a lot of discussion has happened, and it's tough to go back and read it all. Things got super busy for me last month and then twofold this month. Every time I think things will calm down, other stuff happens. But that's also why Tivvy is taking a healthy slice of the Wyrom lobe.

broken vector
#

the fact that orbs don't help resource gain is a real bummer for a lot of people

chilly berry
#

The trick is: ignore your family.

fading flare
#

I don’t know if there’s been many additions since I posted this, but I’ll post it again for input:

If we summarize the requests in this channel so far:

  1. Something more interesting to do to keep people playing after the loot cap. Whether that is gemstones, dust, or something else.

  2. Maybe some updates to the Lumnis brooch. Even a free re-arrangement of runs on the orbs would be nice.

  3. Potentially making orbs apply to resource gain again.

  4. Reviewing low-level loot to make sure that people aren’t only bringing in 500 silvers per hunt and can get enough to buy gear, deeds, and Lumnis donations.

  5. Potentially making Lumnis Donate have more gradual prices at lower levels.

  6. A LOOTCAP verb. (Or adding a roleplay-style line about how much treasure you’ve gathered recently as a line under the Silver/Wealth verb.)

  7. Locksmith pool fee evaluation. Maybe even making the tip part of the fee would be better, or something else. I’m not as attached to this one, but people seem to like it. It’s true that it is a triple whammy with lootcap, silver suppression, and a fee.

  8. Addressing box weight and adding more interesting loot. This includes addressing OSA cargo bin size.

  9. Anything I missed?

With all of that said, I appreciate the recent changes today. 85 per pulse for resources feels fine and the field experience pool increase is great. Thanks for the adjustments.

(It’s a game we’ve been playing for 30 years. We all have opinions on the best way to keep it alive. These aren’t demands at all, just friendly ways that might improve life in Elanthia following the reduction in silver, resources, lower lootcap, etc.)

Box weight seems to be the major discussion at the moment.

This is my summary of the last 3-4 days.

thorn mantle
shell phoenix
#

And bring back blood crystals. gnomes need bags of holding

fervent hatch
#

One thing to mention, "loot becoming more interesting" wasn't part of this phase. We still have plans for this. Something along the lines on how many other games do loot drops. It still need a lot of discussion, because it was never part of the faucet change. Adding in a silver drain during all this was something we pushed for so it wasn't all downer announcements. Even if that got lumped in as a bad.

light ferry
#

Would be nice to have the gemstone artificer costs adjusted. loot cap hits pretty hard with those

fervent hatch
#

Bank Heist is something I hope we can reinvent, we had a GM who was here who had some plans, but they aren't on the team anymore. So I will have to hold auditions again for someone to take my ideas and run with it.

#

Pricing adjustments will be a case-by-case once we see the impact of silvers. If we get to the end of March and our efforts didn't move the needle much, we'll probably not see much in terms of downward adjustments.

split hamlet
#

The summary is misleading.

The new resource gains are pretty speedy. There's no reason to allow orbs to increase resource regeneration again unless you're trying to support people who -don't play- resource alts to make extra millions and millions every week.

tender scarab
#

Will be interesting to see if people buy.

hazy osprey
#

All I'd say re: resource gains and orbs is it's nice to have an orb to fall back on for weeks I'm on vacation and don't spend as much time playing as usual. But that's just my use case. I tend to save my orbs for exactly these weeks.

devout bobcat
#

I'd like to see rare / fun materials as loot that we can use as fodder or components.

brazen salmon
fading flare
boreal bobcat
#

Isn't there a feeder for that 😁

normal drum
mossy forge
#

Collectibles, which seem to be rarer these days...

devout bobcat
#

If there's a feeder for such things, I've never found anything. Collectibles are something different. That's somthing I don't even pay attention to.

split hamlet
brazen salmon
shell phoenix
#

Put cool loot in everything

normal drum
#

Doublethink

boreal bobcat
#

Is it though? I think that's more saying they have a vehicle to deliver such things, so maybe it should be used more!

devout bobcat
#

I find all kinds of interesting materials. They just aren't coded correctly to actually utilize in crafting.

fervent hatch
#

Material fodder feeder hits once a day. If someone wants to make a new thread with a list of materials you'd like to see in the #1026549641963126795 topic and tag me, I'll keep an eye on it. If one already exists, tag me in that.

devout bobcat
#

My recommendation is less about specific materials and more about making that sort of thing more common. Or including a lower tier with less restrictive materials like lotus silk, paeline, zydris, yadda yadda yadda.

I love the idea of finding some garment or fragment on a mob and upcycling that into something wearable.

fervent hatch
#

Sure, I'm just a dude playing a dude disguised as the PM. I'm like... vultite, rolaren, blackest black metal, death metal, death-ur-metal... And then I go off and do something else. So a list of what people want to see is helpful.

mossy forge
#

I want to wield a kobold as a weapon, please.

devout bobcat
split hamlet
devout bobcat
#

Look I'm not going to lie, I find driftwood interesting. My expectations and standards are pretty low. (I would tooootally make some driftwood cobbling heels for Maylan)

split hamlet
#

Anything not restricted we should be able to procure ourselves in some way.

brazen salmon
#

I might be able to make that happen for you, Maylan.

finite trench
#

Out of fulmen’s list I think 4 and 5 are really the key things to think about. Part of the goal of the experience change is to make cap more accessible for players who actually haven’t reached cap, and those players have a lot less resources both in silver and in gear (which means they have other pressures on their silver). It would be nice to make sure those players can fully benefit from the xp change. The other points I either don’t really feel strongly about or think you shouldn’t do.

fervent hatch
#

If that's the full list, and we're just talking about that restricted list, I'll see what is what next week.

devout bobcat
devout bobcat
fervent hatch
#

We just have the feeder already, so adding a bunch of materials in that list, provided the GMs who have made them restricted don't mind, should be easy.

split hamlet
fading flare
split hamlet
#

On that, we can agree.

shell phoenix
#

I like the image in my head of my lil' gnome dragging a box that weighs more than her around

fading flare
finite trench
#

I think that the box weight change has revealed a lot of funky things about how weight and especially how abilities that are supposed to help you with weight work, like discs. I think those should all get deeply rethought, because it’s not clear that they were deeply thought in the first place. They just kind of existed and worked kind of. Now that boxes are much less granular it’s revealed a lot of cracks. I don’t necessarily think boxes overall should get lighter but we should all get better at moving them. Probably in a way that also balances the races a little.

shell phoenix
#

Queue the age of the MA giantman cleric army, just for carrying all the boxes

finite trench
#

It was always optimal to make all your alts be giants and krolvin now it’s just more acute!

fading flare
dusky kernel
chilly berry
finite trench
dusky kernel
#

2 good
2 b
4 gotten

warm agate
#

Maybe there is simply more silver to drain in the hands of the billionaires, therefore more silvers to burn with CLAIM CLAIM CLAIM. I'd rather dig , dig , diggity dig.

split girder
#

is there a singular list of the current state of changes? Following tidbits of in flight modifications in the pins is difficult.

old cedar
#

There should probably be a wiki page made that can be updated with "current"

jolly palm
jolly palm
split hamlet
#

Sure, it shouldn't be orbs though. It could be an additional cost that people haven't already abused.

The lantern is a perfect example of pay more get more.

old cedar
#

I've seen no evidence of orbs being "abused" for resource gain....

chilly tulip
#

Double Experience Boost should apply toward resource. Lets you save them for the rainy days, rate-limited by login reward.

split hamlet
old cedar
old cedar
jolly palm
chilly tulip
#

Eonak. Eonake's the metal! But I like the idea.

split hamlet
#

It should probably be really expensive, since it has a direct correlation to wealth increase. Like 2m per week.

alpine walrus
#

So far...I think where Silverageddon has landed is great

Loot is down. But not as extreme as it started
The Experience boosts are fantastic...love that

Box weight, and pool slowed down, is basically where the big issue where noted and planned to address, so that's all expected

Fun fun fun

split hamlet
# 
You carefully examine the monir box and determine that the weight is about 281 pounds.

You gather the remaining 15,812 coins from inside a battered monir box.

The ingot is a solid bar of pure gold with a smooth, polished surface.  You can't be sure, but you think the gold ingot might be worth between 48535 and 54796 silver if sold at a gem shop.

The first thing that strikes you about the ingot is the weight, which is about 160 pounds.

What is the plan to address this? I must have missed it.

chilly tulip
#

The plan is anyone who plays a small race has to buy a fixrace potion

minor falcon
#

it's kind of frustrating that it's ok to put loot caps in place to find nothing but still take 9k searches to find a gemstone.

Like you want us to hunt less but you don't.

old cedar
#

You're right, they should remove the 2nd and 3rd Gemstone chance completely.... 😉 Careful what you wish for.

To expand, you have a point, but the hunt for Gemstones significantly contributed to the current problem, so removing/reducing that would be an obvious target that you may not actually want them to target...

chilly tulip
#

I would honestly love them to get rid of the 2nd and 3rd lol.

minor falcon
#

but is it really game breaking. I guess it's just higher chances at getting a horrible regional more than anything else. I feel like the gemstone hunt is probably the bigger reason for loot generation than anything else.

vital badge
old cedar
#

well, probably not so much any more with the new cap....so feel free to keep going for them... 🤷‍♂️

vital badge
#

I mean, sure, it does give you something to burn for, whether that effort is worth it, I'm not sure.

minor falcon
#

It's one of those things where I have only been going for 1 per month. But I still go into ascension areas to burn my brooch once per day. I still look at the killcounter though and kinda creates a little frustration to see and no 2nd gemstone for the month when I'm pushing 9k kills. I just don't think things are aligned.

old cedar
#

To me, feels like they've decided on a rarity for gemstones and have set it. I'm not really feeling that any of these changes have changed that. There's a fair bit of RNG in there for the 2nd and 3rd as I understand it, so bad streaks are going to happen (and just to jab that the RNG, it'll seem like you get more bad than good).

minor falcon
#

yeah, the RNG on RNG doesn't help with things. heh...

uncut juniper
#

Removing the AFK/MA/script check discussion as off topic.

split hamlet
#

Thank you.

unique oyster
#

I've been calculating the encumbrances for all the races using max stats and ascension stats bonuses. Judging from the data, it requires heavy investment for most races to be able to carry an additional 50 lb box. Even if you include Porter (+20 lb) in the calculations, it still doesn't help very much. Using Forest Gnome as an example, with 100 Strength and Constitution, 40 ranks in Ascension Strength and Constitution, 10 ranks in Porter, the Forest Gnome gains +49 lb carry weight. 90 Ascension ranks to carry one more box.

Looking closer, encumbrance scales higher with the stronger races and the stats matter less. Burghal Gnome with max stats and Ascension stats, +24 lb carry weight. Giantmax with the same stats and Ascension stats, +72 lb carry weight.

There is a very good argument for smaller races to fixrace into something else. Most people who have played smaller races know the struggle of dealing with encumbrance issues constantly. These loot changes are probably going to be the tipping point for a lot of those players. Nothing those races offer compares to how much encumbrance matters. Why care about the +60 maneuver Dodging bonus with picking up a box takes it all away?

Screenshot_2026-01-25_084614.png
chilly tulip
#

Yeah. Going to see how things are in Feb but my halfling monk is most likely going to become human.

unique oyster
rapid reef
#

i wonder if they could just adjusts disks so they can hold at least 2 boxes minimum no matter what

warm agate
#

Only 17.5k simucoin for a race change :😏:

chilly tulip
warm agate
#

Then you can use the disguise stuff to appear as a halfling

chilly tulip
#

I’m already using it to appear Human lol. I can’t take the dinky races seriously as melee combatants. The mechanical advantages for halfling used to be worth it in an all UCS all the time pre PSM3 world. Now I think the ludicrous box weights will be the change to push me to a race change I’ve wanted to make for a while anyway.

unique oyster
#

The races haven't been touched since the switch to GS3 to GS4. I honestly think the races as a whole should improved. You know, add things like giving Erinthian a race bonus to Mental TD or generalizing the decay timers. But, I highly doubt any race will be buffed due to the loot update. I would be be surprised if races every gets changed.

remote egret
alpine walrus
old cedar
#

Not usually, from my memory. The year end sale, though.

remote egret
#

Ok - so...I feel like a big deal just happened that wipes out everyone's complaints/concerns.

You carefully examine the hickory strongbox and determine that the weight is about 77 pounds.
Roundtime: 5 sec.
R>loot my strong
You search through a copper-edged hickory strongbox and remove several items of note which you promptly stow away.
>get coin
You gather the remaining 7,777 coins from inside your hickory strongbox.
Roundtime: 6 sec.```
The only thing that would have made this PERFECT is if the RT was 7 seconds.
rough vault
#

Although fat boxes are certainly inconvenient, is it really necessary to be able to hold and store them with every character while executing long hunts as was paradigm? Capped players can fry a lot faster than most choose to return to base nowadays. Any character with 416 can determine if most boxes are special. Many can 125 it in the field. Who cares if a 300 pound box needs to be left behind once in a while? Many multiaccount and can manage an alternative solution. The point is why must every box be brought back? That is an unrealistic goal now. Changing races to gain a mechanical benefit is really not what that option was intended for.

remote egret
chilly tulip
#

Changing races is for whatever I decide to use it for since I'm spending the money

#

Once a box is generated by your having looted the creature, it's counted against your loot cap, so leaving it in the field is losing that income forever. The modern game isn't hunt until fried and rest, it's turning in bounties. You may be playing GS like it's the 1990s but most people aren't.

unique oyster
# rough vault Although fat boxes are certainly inconvenient, is it really necessary to be able...

The main reason to bring every box back is because that is were most of the loot comes from. Especially now that they tripled the rewards in them. You might be right that the intent is to make players leave the boxes behind. That is a bad design in my opinion. No one likes getting rewarded but having to forgo it. It also will not stop the top 5% of earners. They WILL take every box back. All that does is does is widen the wealth gap.

still sigil
#

Just wanted to say the resource change feels a lot better. 10 hours is much more pleasant. And I appreciate you guys being responsive on the topic.

rough vault
#

Again most don't hit loot cap. Most aren't tracking every coin, every kill, reading spreadsheets to min max time efficiency to farm and turn time into value. I understand that is important to some, but the sky isn't falling when that paradigm is no longer as easy.

rapid reef
unique oyster
brazen salmon
#

What may not be "sky falling" changes to you, may be to others. I don't understand why the first response is always to invalidate someone else's concerns because it isn't yours.

crimson pond
chilly berry
boreal bobcat
bright pasture
#

maybe grit can be modified to also give your armor an encumbrance boost

similar to how bloodstones give a health boost that levels the hit point playing field

i don't really want it tied to armor, though hmm

broken vector
#

as long as they can pick it up, I don't think it's a huge deal that smaller races can't carry boxes around while hunting...I would 100% want every disk to hold at least one box so you have the option of sticking it in a disk and continuing...or run back to town real quick, stick it in the pool, and go back to your hunt. I suppose there are some remote hunting areas where that's not an option and I'm not sure what the answer is there, but in most places it's just a minor inconvenience and you have to weigh the utility of strength vs the benefits of the race.

If a box drops that a smaller race can't even pick up, well, I hope that is resolved b/c that's just dumb/annoying/unnecessary.

vital badge
#

expand the urchin runner service world wide, it's time. They've had a chance to unionize and now they can take over the global parcel market in elanthia.

We can even call them UPS, for the Urchin Postal Service.

fading flare
boreal bobcat
#

That would be one serious buff to disks. They just need +2 items base and they should fit most any box I've ever seen!

broken vector
#

that sounds pretty insanely overpowered - maybe make it count boxes and put a max of 2 or something...but with the rate of box drops now, I think as long as the disk can hold one box and you don't have to go to town until you get a 2nd box, it seems reasonable.

vital badge
#

do disks have a functional weight limit, or is it just items?

fading flare
vital badge
#

so around 5 - 7 boxes in this market, about how it would have been before the changes

If we went with the 1 item box rule... cmon people.

broken vector
#

maybe some way for non wizards to be able to get this benefit to a lesser extent would be cool

image.png
boreal bobcat
#

5-7 boxes? what? A disk holds 8 items. That's 4 boxes if they only contain silver.

Edit about how it would have been before the changes
This changes it to you saying you can fit 5-7 boxes before the changes. You could not.

fading flare
broken vector
fading flare
simple forge
#

We've moved on, but this is a good idea. Auchand has already shown that he can create epic and scary ascension zones, but is yet to prove his chops in the realms of whimsy and the absurd

mossy forge
#

  1. Moved on from what?

  2. He needs to bring it.

jolly palm
#

Only one solution ---- One free character attuned fix race for all characters created before 1/16/2023!

(kidding.... kind of?)

dusky kernel
dire rivet
# 

   ... 15 points of damage!
   Heavy shock to abdomen blackens skin.  Ick.```
I guess 'rune-incised' and anything else with 'rune' in it is the same as 'enruned'... beware!
boreal bobcat
#

Makes sense that runes regardless of how they're applied would count! Thanks for confirming.

fierce lynx
vital badge
#

it would take longer than that just to copy it from discord. AI can't see the forums here, and discord only lets you copy so much.

south trail
#

Light it rub it wave it clench it redeem it raise it. Give it the daft punk treatment until you find the right verb. Heh

#

But it’s not 250k. Is it? It’s 1m to 1.25m. Loot cap is reset monthly.

boreal bobcat
tender condor
#

There is **very little outright hostility**.
sus

boreal bobcat
fierce lynx
# vital badge it would take longer than that just to copy it from discord. AI can't see the f...

Hmmmm.... there are people that have litereally done this in some of the conversation threads (this one being one of them earlier this week).

I tried it directly here in discord and the copy does seem limited (I use this for things at work on an internal AI tool otherwise) so open question to the indiviudal(s) that have summarized several days worth of discussion on here... how did you accomplish this?

boreal bobcat
#

The most likely way was using a third party program. Such as DiscordChatExporter. I suppose they could have copy and pasted 8000+ messages at 10-12 messages at a time.

fierce lynx
#

Okay. I was thinking some sort of macro or script or something. If there is an export tool for Discord that would make it straightforwrd and easy to do. I may look into this further for my own sanity on trying to catch up on some of these threads. Thanks!

boreal bobcat
fierce lynx
#

Well if you don't have 3 hours to read through manually I would take the AI summary over not reading it at all. That's all I'm saying. 🙂 AI definitely does get it wrong at times but it can save time if used well.

finite trench
#

I'm pretty sure I didn't post that much. AI probably just liked my posts so much it artificially inflated their number

shell phoenix
uncut juniper
vital badge
#

can confirm, counted them myself

uncut juniper
tender condor
#

Yes but if you consolidate post counts to being unique to poster + thought being conveyed it's only like 3 things max per person.

sleek meadow
#

-insert the sesame street count here-

uncut juniper
#

That's not including stuff I deleted

finite trench
#

you should include those, those were the best posts!

crimson pond
#

I can summarize my contributions:

  1. Changes seem mostly fine
  2. HALP I AM GNOME PLZ UNNERF
  3. Not all MAers are eeeveeiillll
vital badge
#

they are lost to the ether, washed away... like tears in the rain.

brazen salmon
#

Vanah can go back with a glass of her favorite drink and reread them all, if she ever gets suuuuuuuper bored.

chilly berry
vital badge
#

I get the impression that Vanah doesn't get bored, she gets even.

uncut juniper
#

I don't get joy or anger from moderation, it's just part of the job

tender condor
ashen carbon
#

Vanah when moderating.

maxresdefault.png
shell phoenix
#

Legends say a claidmore glyph can only be used by the worst smith in the lands. And if they ever master forging it will vanish into thin air

vital badge
slate edge
# unique oyster I've been calculating the encumbrances for all the races using max stats and asc...

This chart is slightly off. The max body weight cannot be exceeded, even with more STR/CON. Once you have enough STR/CON for example as a Giantman to hit 360 body weight, you can't get any fatter. Didn't look at the rest of the numbers, but per the wiki. You can't go over the max body weight listed there. Anyone with 100 STR/CON is going to already be at max body weight.

Link to my spreadsheet I did that accounts for this and you can just modify the STR/CON numbers to be whatever you want to see the differences. Could do 100/100, then 140/140, then 180/180 to see what it would be like to have cap, cap+enhancive, cap+enhancive+ascension. It does not take into account also doing same for enhancive/ascension into PF or Porter though., didn't get that deep. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/164ngV8-C3elcsS_Tseh8s4OrHHOM1bhsibCONqCTDzg/edit?usp=drivesdk

shell phoenix
#

Too much math for my brain to process on a weekend. But are you taking into account the change last week that made it so that characters could pick up items that exceed their body weight? #development-announcements message

slate edge
#

pickup != max carry capacity, it used to be you couldn't pick up anything more than your body weight. But you're still restricted to your max carry capacity

#

a halfling with 100/100 STR/CON has a body weight of 136 lbs, which means before that change, they couldn't pickup anything over 136 lbs. BUT they still have to make sure that they have room in their carry capacity to hold that item. At base 2x PF that's a total of 140 lbs or 3x PF 150 lbs.

and I strongly doubt most halflings have that much free capacity on them to carry said 136+ box when you considering all the other gear they're holding already

#

or all the excess tarts

split hamlet
royal epoch
unique oyster
#

Appreciate the feedback, I didn't know about that restriction to max body weight.

slate edge
bright pasture
#

huh what's the formula for max carry weight?

slate edge
#

(trunc to 0.XX((STR stat - 20) / 200) * body weight) + (body weight / 200)

that doesn't take into account encumberance lowering factors (PF, potions, items, porter)

shell phoenix
#

Now I'm just imagining my lil' rogue being the only gnome in a world full of giantmen... I'm gonna kick so many shins

bright pasture
slate edge
bright pasture
#

hm that gets me close. 880lbs before i can't pick up anything - minus 100lbs for the encumbrance potion. still a bit off for giant with weight of 360. i'll have to check it later

slate edge
#

What's your current STR, porter, and PF skill?

#

yeah, the one thing I don't know is if PF applies BEFORE determining base carry capacity or after. Considering it's not part of the normal formula, I did after.

#

Yeah, with max Str (180 base)/PF (503 bonus) enhancive/ascension with max porter on a 3x PF profession giantman, I'm seeing 729 lbs max, before encumbrance potions/belt of kai.

chilly berry
finite trench
#

Race choice was already dominated by mechanics over roleplay and this is just shifting the playing field. That said part of that mechanical domination was that small races are much more annoying to play and that got turned up by at least three times. I think it’s worth really considering the goal of loot weight. Like if you want people to have to go back after three boxes just make disks hold exactly two boxes, stuff like that.

chilly berry
bright pasture
slate edge
bright pasture
slate edge
tawny sierra
#

how are gem bounties when you arent loot capped now?

bright pasture
chilly berry
#

Quiet in here. People must be happy for once!

shell phoenix
#

I'm always happy (except when getting SMR'd by things on a pure)

tender scarab
# 
  (stowed in a silver-edged azure silk gem pouch)
   some pink mithril-bloom
   a jagged nephrite shard
   a spruce green emerald
  (stowed in a silver-edged azure knapsack featuring an alert forest wolf)
   a polished bloodwood wand
   a steel lockpick
  (stowed in a midnight black silk greatcloak clasped with a wrought silver unicorn)
   a n'ayanad crystal
   an ornate vultite shield
   a gilded dragon miniature
   a bright gold ingot
Looted 9 items.```
Greatest number of items I've seen in a box so far. Somehow I feel like fresh loot cap next week is gonna be wild!
boreal bobcat
#

So maybe disk need +3 base 😁

unkempt ravine
#

Alright, I have to begrudgingly say that the resource up to 85 per has helped. It's not as good as being on an rp orb or doing a marker with the gladiator but I suppose it's tolerable. Don't think I'm super happy about the slowdown (due to not being able to use the orbs to speed things up) but I suppose I can live with it.. RainbowAnnoyed

cerulean stirrup
#

Not sure if this has been mentioned, but is there any consideration to slightly upping the capacity of cargo holds? Fully upgraded bins just don't really hold that much....

jolly palm
unkempt ravine
brazen salmon
#

I'll help, because there should be an orb in every pot! No child left behind without an orb!

ashen carbon
brazen salmon
#

You shut that down right now. Don't bring that storm down on us.

remote egret
#

I saw some lunatic advertising buying orbs today...I was SO confused.

unkempt ravine
devout bobcat
#

Orbs are still great. We just have more options now. Hunting through extended lumnis (and eventually Fash when it's offered) is a grind. Orbs expedite the grind.

brazen salmon
#

YEAH OAMIR, Maylan is right. Orbs are still cool.

calm bay
ashen carbon
#

yeah, I'm one of the single account holders, but only 2 of my characters produce resources. the other two are still in the RSN stage

remote egret
brazen salmon
#

I mean, tbf, I was capping resource on 3 characters a week without doing the offline resource gaining, so the changes felt worse but I was still capping in relatively the same amount of hours.

It doesn't feel crazy faster for me now, but I do miss the front loading Lumnis added to it.

devout bobcat
#

It's 2-3 hours faster compared to the old method with just lumnis, no RPA orbs or other modifiers.

calm bay
#

Might be 4-5 hours faster actually, but it also feels more even and less grindy at the end when your lumnis wore off. My biggest gripe with these changes is how they created even more incentives to setup MA over playing on a single account with multiple characters since each account gets its own loot cap, and then its easier to simultaneously grind resources.

brazen salmon
#

I absolutely get how that can make a huge difference for folks.

devout bobcat
#

FFNG made a chart.

image.png
calm bay
#

Frankly, I feel like the Premium / Platinum account holders who play multiple characters should get a loot cap bonus. The problem is the coding challenge of doing some kind of "per character" bonus to the soft cap when played on the same account. Keep in mind, I just converted to premium 2 months ago, and have played a 2 account Prime style for the past 15 years, so I have no premium bias. I just see how loot cap makes MA more appealing.

ashen carbon
remote egret
calm bay
#

Yes and no. If all the MA accounts are just regular prime accounts, the premium benefits are pretty kick ass. The main benefit they're getting is power hunting groups that can maintain all the group buffs and increased silver generation. If we look at a single account holder that say has 4-5 characters on a Premium account they actively play, and there was some detection that say gave you a 10% increase to soft cap per active character making it so they could earn an additional 4-5mil, that will take a lot more work than a single player who runs 4-5 accounts simultaneously (and thus has 4-5x the silver generation power).

It doesn't change the fact that MA gets more silvers in the end, but it punishes being a single account player a lot less since those folks aren't achieving the top 5% of silver generation.

remote egret
#

Yes, I agree you could set up a hypothetical where there are advantages to NOT MA...I'm saying in the world/game we live in...there was, is and will continue to be huge advantages to MA. Nothing about the recent changes impacted the status quo.

sleek meadow
#

I know everyone has been focused on the loot cap and average income etc. But how about exp? How much exp does the average player or character pull in a month? I'm curious because it seems like we've already sped up leveling from 1-100 a lot over the last 30 years and some of these changes certainly make it seem like the new standard is just for everyone to cap within 1-2 years now?

calm bay
#

Unless you're F2P which seems to be even slower now? Could just be a feeling since they seem to get hit with extra exclusions constantly.

sleek meadow
#

ah yeah I only ever used F2p to play for a week to get back into the groove when I'd been gone for 8 years. I always thought of it as either A) a test it before you buy it mode or B) need someone to mule something for me mode. But maybe that's just me.

fading flare
jolly palm
# calm bay Might be 4-5 hours faster actually, but it also feels more even and less grindy ...

Just throwing it out there.... but as an MA'er, i was getting to 30m+ on multiple accounts prior to the change.
That number will be cut in 1/2 to 1/3. (I'm aware enough to admit I was part of the loot problem.)

This change didn't incentivize MA'ing more than the previous setup.

Yes, there might be some players who had multiple characters on a single premium that split them into individual accounts, but if that's the case, it's helping a person who was not previously MA'ing to whale out.

calm bay
jolly palm
#

How would you propose it not hitting a single account / multiple character player but still slow down MA'ers though?

The impact to MA'ers will be significantly greater than the SAM (Single account-multiple). This definitely makes the playing field more even.
It will never be perfectly balanced, as MA'ing just enables way more resources.

If anyhting, this also helps us all, because anyone who is splitting into multiple accounts is also adding more subs. Subs = revenue. Revenue = resources for the game.

calm bay
# jolly palm How would you propose it not hitting a single account / multiple character playe...

So 1st, I would only suggest it for premium/platinum because that requires a significantly higher account cost. Then for each character that is active (set active threshold to be earning a specific amount of XP) the soft cap is increased by 10%. Lets say the active threshold is they earn 50k XP per month on each character. That can be accomplished, but requires them to at least do lumnis. This makes the premium/platinum account able to get between 4-10mil extra per month before hitting the soft cap.

split hamlet
#

Go by the cost of the account. If a prime account can earn 10m at $15, then a premium account can earn 25m at $40 and platinum accounts can earn 30m at $50.

Real upgrade perks.

uncut juniper
#

Scripts are allowed. If you suspect anyone is AFK scripting please use POLICY REPORT in game. This is not the place to rehash that discussion.

brazen salmon
#

So we all know I have issues with syntax (points to historic issues with auction verbs), so this won't be surprising.... (ahuehuehueheuheueheu)

I one attempted to use POLICY REPORT in game and for some reason, I never managed to get it to go through. Which is sad, because it was definitely a policy violation. (though this is probably better on HELP than here, so I will see myself out....)

slate edge
# bright pasture the wr containers are almost empty - but would not the wr containers count for a...

Think the only way to really know how much you can actually hold is to get naked and do the silver withdraw trick to see what it takes to show encumbered. I can't recall if it's documented anywhere how much silver = 1 lb. But should be relatively easy to do if you get naked at the bank to test. Trying to weigh gear and account for that will throw off calcs. I can easily test max ascension weight on GSTest with silver, just need to know the value of how much silver per pound.

boreal bobcat
#

Wiki says 1/160th a pound

chilly berry
# sleek meadow I know everyone has been focused on the loot cap and average income etc. But ho...

If you ran just Lumnis Donate and Cash’lo’nae each week it would take you 9 months to cap.

Granted that is roughly 20-30 hours of playtime.

(Edit: yes the variance swings that widely from 20 to 30 hours based on EXP per pulse it is 30 hours at 30 base experience per pulse absorbed and 20 hours at 45 basic experience per pulse. Looks like those discipline and logic enhance sets. Don’t just give you more experience for pulse these days. They also give you real time back in your life)

slate edge
#

I don't have any enhancives on GST, so I'll adjust accordingly the calcs

boreal bobcat
slate edge
#

oh man.. I was way off on my formulas. I misread the wiki slightly.

Max Carry = Unencumbered Capacity + (1.5 * Body Weight)

And Unencumbered Capacity is:

Unencumbered Capacity = Base Carry + (Porter Ranks * 2) + (PF Bonus / 10)

Base Carry = (trunc to 0.XX((STR stat - 20) / 200) * body weight) + (body weight / 200)

Time to redo my charts... yay!

#

So not quite as bad as originally looked and halflings an carry a bit more than I calc'd. But still not a lot.

#

Hmm... that's just for overloaded > 100%. The wiki states that true max carry capacity wher you can't pickup/hold additional is actually:

(1.5 * body weight) + Unencumbered Carrying Capacity

so even more than I thought

#

So actually quite a bit for a halfling with 2x PF and 100 STR/CON. No where near as much as a Giantman though

image.png
unkempt ravine
#

Oh a Sylvan is stronger than an Elf? Go me lol

lucid latch
#

I object to a dwarf and dark elf being the same.

slate bluff
#

Yeah Dwarf getting screwed here, should be tied for second or third at the very least

boreal bobcat
#

Them short legs doing you a disservice

slate bluff
#

The Lord of the Rings movie hadnt come out when they made these numbers so they probably were thinking of the 7 Dwarfs from Disney

brazen salmon
#

I think like half the races beneath humans should be able to bench press two humans.

old cedar
#

While I did laugh....I can't not point out that LotR was published in 1954 and heavily influenced the entire historical chain of products that ended up with the production of GemStone....

slate bluff
#

Wow, the actors and watching some of these LoTR's movies and spinoffs gets you all messed up on the dimensions. All the main humans are like 6'6 and 7 foot in the books?..... It's like One Piece haha

old cedar
#

Many of the "humans" were not actually humans, but demi-gods...

remote egret
#

My dwarf empath with 3x PF and 100 str/con is a beast!

lucid latch
#

Not a conversation for this thread, I'd rather almost everything statistically associated with race be migrated to some kind of background choice. All dwarves aren't strong, all elves aren't ... pretentious and... wait, what was I talking about?

slate bluff
#

Sauron was 9 feeeeet tall? I don't remember that in Rings of Power.....

boreal bobcat
#

That's why movies are second rate

slate edge
#

It's crazy the weight difference a giantman can carry though in comparison.

tropic creek
#

Yeah, look at my dark elves being as strong as a dwarf.
And with less beard!

jolly palm
#

Sounds like it's time to unlock new Ascension Skills for height.
It checks out that the most legendary of characters can be comically larger than their standard by race.
Giantman sized human!
Human sized Dwarf!

sleek meadow
fierce lynx
lunar beacon
slate edge
sturdy ridge
#

Need a little help from blowing up boxes I guess>...

     3 counts of endangering public safety
     1 count of jailbreak```

yes well this is something I was already jailed and released for.  a bug if you will
uncut juniper
#

You can do that outside town too!

boreal bobcat
#

Hmm, not sure earth lore affects encumbrance from 509, think it's only +AS

tropic creek
slate edge
normal drum
wispy forum
boreal bobcat
#

My little unscientific test. I could get to encumbered with silver, deposit 160 so I'm at the threshold. Cast 509 with 75 ranks of earth. I can add +48 lbs and be at the threshold again. So akin to a wizard with 37 ranks. That +48 is total from strength, not just the lore.

slate edge
#

Current test I'm working on.

  • STOP 509
  • train to 0 ranks of EL:Earth, cast 509. Get to where you're 1 silver over causing "overloaded" status
  • STOP 509
  • train to 202 ranks of EL:Earth, cast 509. See if you're still at overloaded or lower.

And it definitely works to lower encumbrance having earth lore vs not

#

the only thing I cannot test is if it is limited by enhancive limit or not. (don't have +40 STR base enh set)

#

32 more lbs with 202 more ranks (went from 50 with asc, to 252). So went from 22 bonus to 34 bonus, so 44 base, to 68 base, difference of 24 base STR. Now to plug that into the formula and see if that is correct

#

It's close, math on the formula shows 27.9 lbs difference with earth lore 50 vs 252 ranks

boreal bobcat
#

72603 1 over overloaded
74992 at overloaded
2389 / 160 = 14.93 so basically 15lbs at 37 ranks!

enhancive capped on the strength

bright pasture
#

nice work

slate edge
#

ugh... that will be harder to account for in a spreadsheet 😄 so basically at max enhancive, earth lore ain't doing anything for you. Or did I understand wrong?

boreal bobcat
#

Why do you say that? I'm on a ranger not a wizard 😁 also, I did mispoke, he has 101 earth on test, so that would be 15 @ 50 ranks.
max enhancive strength, and it still goes up when I add more ascension strength

slate edge
#

earth lore only applies to wizards (self cast, so guess could be SK?) per the wiki...

bright pasture
#

yeah, would expect SK 509 to give full lore benefit

boreal bobcat
#

wands, blackwhite crystals, scrolls. Lores are 1/2 strength since it's a major circle. I gained 15 lbs. So definitely not wizard only.

slate edge
#

Ugh... that's a lot of mathing that is complicated to add to a spreadsheet 😄

boreal bobcat
#

Yeah I wouldn't bother adding it! That's a 4040 tp investment for 15 lbs. Only people with earth flares will be doing it 😁 Whale territory! And it's competeing with their air lore!

slate edge
boreal bobcat
#

I'll max out ascension strength and do it again, but that's what I'm understanding

crimson pond
cold zephyr
#

Hit up a low 20 level area, came across 3 boxes in about 10-12 minutes of searching for a missing heirloom. Total value of the boxes and all content was 25,608 silver. Plus 4,676 silver off fresh kills, 20 gems (highest valued was 103, lowest was 8), 1 small statue (765, if sold - kept it), 2 heavy quartz orbs (894), 1 moonstone cube (447), 2 wands (1842 total), steel lockpick (143), copper lockpick (29), sky blue chemise (0), rugged tan shoes (111), slashed rose pink surcoat (0) and a fine silver ewer (2496).

Total silver = 37,432 silver in about a 10-12 minute hunt and opening my own boxes. Maybe would have been an extra 3-5K if this character knew how to skin.
If I used the NPC to open my boxes, I'd have lost about 40%. Using the locksmith pool would have been half that (not including tips).

I think it's pretty sad that the most expensive gem I came across was worth 103 silver and disheartening that the least was 8 silver. Out of those 20 gems he's averaging 59 silver a gem. As for the 3 boxes in one hunt, I'd say that's a fluke because most hunts now provide maybe 1 box. I'd venture to guess this character will average out to around 20k a hunt, as long as he pulls 1 box a hunt.

boreal bobcat
bright pasture
#

it’s pretty nice for a giant wizard, which is the only reason i knew about it before

slate edge
#

everyone wants to be a giantman now! issue there is having enough containers for everything.

rotund siren
#

...I really really hate the "everyone wants to be a giantman now". The penalties for being anything else are just...gross.

minor falcon
#

probably not a good design if everyone wants to be a giant 🤣

rotund siren
#

It is absolutely not a good design for a game that claims to take RP seriously.

fiery cove
edgy hollow
#

are you supposed to be able to stack lumnis donate when you are under level 21?

icy sentinel
#

nope

edgy hollow
#

hmmm. my 2nd wizard is level 11 still working through 4x lumnis and i just got next weeks donate

boreal bobcat
#

You can stack 1 week. So since you used the one you had (currently on it) you can donate.

icy sentinel
#

you can have 1 recent donation, even if you're currently in lumnis (what he said)

digital turtle
# fiery cove RP aside, it's not mechanically good either. Short races do not have much going ...

Yup. Even when you take the biggest small race advantage of +40 TD (halfling elemental TD boost), that's a 13% boost (40/300 base TD at level 100) in one school of magic TD when comparing two squares. This boost is considerably smaller when comparing two self-spelled semis or pures. Keep in mind not all small races get this boost and some stat bonuses like +Aura in dark elves or elves cuts this difference even further.

In contrast, that 13% boost is dwarfed by larger races getting 75-90% boost in Health and Carrying Capacity. (These are roughly close estimates).

In a game model that is trending towards heavier loot and combat with more attrition, I think it's time to boost Health Points and Carrying Capacity for smaller races in the name of game balance.

Edit: Forgot to mention differences in speed and PSM defense. I'll let someone else analyze these numbers. My personal opinion on these is that Large Races got a huge buff with the RT reductions for weapons and ASC/enhancives make it easier for large races to get faster but not for smaller races to carry more and have more health. I still think that ratio-wise, large races have conserably larger boosts. As for PSM defense and all that isn't overall consensus that smaller races got the short end of the stick and were nerfed?

chilly berry
slate edge
#

It's not 100% accurate. Would be better to just place a table or document how the formula works than to link to the spreadsheet.

boreal bobcat
#

Giantmen still max out at -5. I'd like to see them fit the same number of attacks into a single round of an assault as a little person.

digital turtle
boreal bobcat
#

Erm the above is wrong 😁 They can get -8. Halfing having 155 max vs 120 max.
35 is 2.5 seconds difference.

granite tartan
#

It should probably be based on people who have made at least X amount during Y time period so that numbers aren't being skewed by someone who hunts once a week and makes like 300 silvers off of ice troll scalps or something

tender scarab
# digital turtle Yup. Even when you take the biggest small race advantage of +40 TD (halfling ele...

I would say it's both better and worse for small races than you're describing. On the worse side, halflings have -5 Aura, so that +40 elemental TD is actually +35 over baseline. Incoming elemental CS spells are also fairly rare, so it doesn't even help all that often. Depending on a person's specific hunting grounds, the elemental TD might outright never help. Carrying capacity helps everywhere. (...at least until hitting loot cap, I guess.)

That said, describing the elemental TD improvement as 35/300 doesn't really do it justice. The 300 base TD from levels is cancelled out by enemies also having their own base CS from levels, so the real comparison is around typical endrolls. For example, if an average elemental CS endroll against a non-halfling would be 150, that would become 115 against a halfling, which is more like 333% as good (50/15).

As for PSM defense, small races (other than dwarves) have an advantage at avoiding the hit more easily than anything other than elves (burghal gnomes beat out even elves), but a disadvantage if they do get hit. That's relatively balanced, but I'd give small races the edge since prevention is better than a cure.

Overall, though, I agree that the changes have hit small races hard because encumbrance mitigation is a universal benefit. I'm not as sky-is-falling about it as some people, but I agree that you need some kind of negation--be a cleric for 314, get 314 imbeds, be a sorcerer for 704, buy silvery-blue potions and feather-shaped charms, buy enhancives, buy weight reduction--to even function as a gnome or halfling in the modern world. Other races don't really need anything.

shell phoenix
#

Yeah, my gnome is using a silvery-blue potion, charms, and sometimes drags a giantman around as a packmule

tender scarab
#

Maybe 520 air could be added to the list of possible buff candidates along with 511, since 704 and 314 already got help.

digital turtle
# tender scarab I would say it's both better and worse for small races than you're describing. O...

I dont think the average endroll for anyone getting hit by any spells in ASC zones is 150, let alone squares or semis :P. Wouldn't you say that it when it comes to end game content, everyone is getting hit no matter what and that racial TD bonus is moot? what are elemental CS numbers in ASC? 500+? The boost would be proportionate to the hunting zone and the average endrolls. ASC hunting zones would see much smaller boosts comparatively:

Percentage reduction by endroll size
Raw Endroll    After –35            % Reduction
    120              85                  29%
    150              115                 23%
    200              165                 17.5%
    240              205                 14.6%                                                          
    300              265                 11.7%```

PSM changes at the time nerfed the advantage that small races were getting prior. Fast forward to ASC hunting zones and everyone gets hit so idk, that advantage is almost moot IMO.
tender scarab
#

I can't even recall an elemental CS spell in Ascension hunting (I assume they're plentiful in Sailor's Grief, but I haven't hunted there), but let me go look up if there's anything I'm forgetting.

fading flare
#

Now I have to do a comparison between giant and dwarf…

boreal bobcat
#

This feels elemental. I bet most people have a higher elemental TD than a ranger in robes. 😁

A fulminating stormborn primordial grows scintillatingly bright, arcs of electricity coalescing into a beam of blazing plasma that erupts toward you!
CS: +498 - TD: +393 + CvA: +5 + d100: +84 - -5 == +199

digital turtle
boreal bobcat
#

sorcerer, probably warrior and rogue too if they know spells. My rogue's not active to check
Elemental = TD: +462 - CvA: +14 == 448 sorcerer, armor isn't even ensorcelled 😁
In fact isn't there a chart going around showing Ranger's have the lowest td!?

tender scarab
#

Okay, I'm seeing on the wiki: bloodspeakers' 703 at 467 sorcerer CS, disciples' 719 at 535 sorcerer CS, golems' 512 at 444 elemental CS, grotesques' 514 at 452 elemental CS, kelpies' 415 at 524 elemental CS, merrows' 512 at 498 elemental CS and 705 at 497 sorcerer CS, and primordials' unique ability at 498 probably-elemental CS.

All of those except the disciples, kelpies, and maybe merrow 705 should be perfectly avoidable by a halfling.

Edit: I don't want to get too off-topic about things that aren't directly linked to loot or experience, so I'll leave it there, but my point is basically just don't oversell as if small races are now the worst thing ever on all fronts. It's more than enough to say they got hit hard by the box size changes, which they did. I even updated my monk guide already to shift gnomes and halflings down (and half-krolvin up), and will be poking at my paladin guide today to do the same. But gnomes' and halflings' other advantages are still there, just overshadowed by a disadvantage that's suddenly looming larger than it already was.

wispy forum
#

im trying to remember the way you calculate swings per round of an assault and if it's possible to get more than 3 in a single round, but i do not recall

boreal trench
#

Assaults have (1 + (MoC Skill Bonus/ 50)) swings, capped at 7

dusky kernel
#

the chart on the wiki says 200 MoC is 7 assault swings though, but 200/50 +1 = 5? me fail english

boreal bobcat
#

bonus not rank 200 ranks of moc = 300 bonus / 50 = 6

finite trench
#

that's why I made the chart so you don't have to read good

zenith meadow
#

what do I need to achieve 2 2 2 1 with twc stars?

frozen tusk
#

Final things I'd like to happen from these changes:

Get rid of node exp. Everywhere the base rate is 19 or everywhere the base rate is 25 or meet in the middle and everywhere the base rate is 22.

Need some kind of carrot to chase for players that are loot capped. Gemstones reroll credit, gemstones pity increase, whatever.

Containers are struggling a bit with the increased box weights. OSA, disks, bags in general. Seems like a capacity increase across the board might be good.

Little race vs big race. Not sure what the fix is other than going the FF route and your race doesn't matter at all. Be who you want to be. Easy fix is just letting every race carry more.

Add a new login boost that increases resource gain.

fading flare
#

Box weight is the major discussion. Racial balance there is key. OSA Cargo Bin size is also a factor for ships.

Other than that, plenty of people want to be able to track their lootcap, to have orbs or something that boosts resource gain occasionally, and to have Lumnis Donate scale better between 21-100.

More interesting loot is a separate discussion, so can skip repeating that.

Locksmith pool fees continue to bother people. The pool is half dead. Time may change this or it might just be what happens now. We'll see.

The last thing would be a chance to reassign for Lumnis Brooches or something, for a few people.

boreal bobcat
frozen tusk
#

Could add a flat or positive modifier to encumbrance based on profession and training.

Square professions get +50 to carrying capacity
Semis get +25 to carrying capacity
Pures get zero

Training armor, shield, cman, moc, and weapon skills reduces your encumbrance by .5 pound for every 10 cumalative skill bonus.

dusky kernel
#

I think they're fine with the pool being half dead. Also its end of the month etc etc

chilly berry
#

NON-SEQUITOR ALERT!

Herb auto bundler and interaction with animalistic totems after the update. One small issue remains. I will bugitem the auto-bundler since that seemed the most direct route.

Looks like bundled skins use their post loot cap appraise value, rather than the pre-loot cap value.
Not as big of a deal since it just requires NOT using the auto bundler satchel after hitting loot cap. I still very much appreciate the fix.

But I just wanted to put it on the backlog.

Attached is the file of evidence for it. These are enough samples to show that the gap between individual skins and bundled skins is quite wide.

All of these skins were aquired after the change. It appears the issue is with bundles not with the auto bundler necessarily.

📎 autobundle_skin_notes.txt
tender scarab
#

I'm actually mostly okay with worn container size staying the same as an incentive to get max deep or epic deep everything. There were a lot of containers I was leaving at 140 or 40 (max-but-not-epic deep for different worn locations) before since it was enough for 5-ish boxes and 1 box, but now more like 2-3 and 0-1.

Maybe things like the beltworns or shoulderworns that cap out at 60 could cap out at 80-100 since boxes in the 61-75 pound range are a lot more common now. The 200 pound max of cloaks and backpacks seems perfectly fine to me, though.

But when an OSA cargo bin potentially can't hold the capacity of a single enemy krolvin ship and a (basic, non-Air-lore-boosted) disk potentially can't hold a single box overflowing with items, yeah, that's a much more blatant issue to me.

I also like Ruse's idea that makes carrying capacity better for squares, semis, and training physical skills, Physical Fitness style.

fast cipher
#

If only someone had a backpack

fiery cove
tender scarab
#

Pures are the ones least affected by encumbrance (unless they're using (non-ranged) weapons, in which case Ruse's proposal would still help).

frozen tusk
# fiery cove Do pures need *another* disadvantage? Really?

Training armor, shield, cman, moc, and weapon skills reduces your encumbrance by .5 pound for every 10 cumulative skill bonus.

You also missed the bump i suggested for all professions. Everyone trains these and pures could train to invest points here way post cap to further reduce encumbrance.

fiery cove
#

Sure, but not everyone trains them (especially armor/shield), and pures are effectively double/triple penalized on many of those skills (they pay the most TP and gain the least raw functionality and have the lowest number of potential ranks) already, so adding even more utility to the skills furthers the inequity. I get the idea of a rising tide, all boats, yadda yadda, but this just doesn't feel like something where you need to be profession-granular with it. Or, at least provide some magical solution to encumbrance as well so there are kit-appropriate options.

boreal bobcat
#

Right it should be racial like it's been the last 30 years!

frozen tusk
cold zephyr
#

Lots of folks feeling a bit bummed about their little race kind of getting the shaft with the new box weights and all....

You can still be little if you go dwarf. You get the best of both worlds - high strength, decent carrying capacity, decent max base health (140), a +30 to ETD, good spirit regen, +3 health regen and on top of it, you're maybe 4ft tall if you play as a very tall dwarf. Also only being about 4ft tall (same as a forest gnome), dwarves get the benefit of 2ft of reach whereas all gnomes (even forest) and halflings only get 1ft of reach height.

As you see, you stay small, but get a lot of benefits of the taller races. Dwarves are the best.

fiery cove
# frozen tusk There are already several magical options that have been listed. 509, 314, float...

As far as magic goes, we've already had the discussion where disks seemingly aren't enough, and also many of those things aren't pure-only, they are just provided by pures to anyone which is a large difference. The lore scaling is not strong enough to substantially change the potency of those spells in any real way, when talking about encumbrance.

With respect to physical skills, I'm not saying that they don't benefit. That wasn't really the point. It's that they benefit the least from basically any of those skills, and pay the most. You're doing a thing that happens in game design a lot when you suggest multiple things which on the surface all make sense but compound in such a way as to end up very inequitable.

Take warriors, for instance, 0.5 pounds for every 10 skill in those? And they can get 300 (or 400) skill in all of them? And their TP costs in all of those things are the lowest? And then another +50 on top of that for being a warrior?

My argument was never "pures don't train those" - it's that pures are heavily disincentivized to train those (and on average, train in them the least) and that an equitable solution to encumbrance will not greatly favor specific professions as much as what you are suggesting.

frozen tusk
#

I'm assuming the small races impacted the most by these box changes are physical small races that have to fight in offensive stance and suffer great amounts of hard roundtime.

Pures stay in guarded for the most part other than wizards if they're bolting but it's barely a second and then they can stance back to guarded.

Every gemstone player knows that squares were inequitable compared to pures for decades.

chilly berry
fiery cove
#

Just a couple of things - "Every gemstone player knows that squares were inequitable compared to pures for decades." - okay, but the correct thing to do is level the field for the betterment of the game so that we can have this argument again in another few decades, not tip it the other way vindictively.

Also - what gap closing would there be? Small races might be incentivized to train extra PF first, but it's really unlikely they'd be the only ones who ever trained it. The gap doesn't close, the number just shifts up within a given profession.

frozen tusk
#

Gemstone is gemstone. Tons of flaws in design that could have been done differently in hindsight. My suggestions are my own but I tend to keep in mind what staff has done prior and expand on it for the most part.

I'm not sure what your suggestions are other than explaining why my suggestion wouldn't work.

royal epoch
#

👀

boreal bobcat
#

I don’t know why the gap should close! Little people need help but they’re not giants.

#

I would also point out that barring a 1000 lb container most people would have trouble carrying over 700 lbs with 7 containers on them.

bright pasture
#

maybe this is a little pessimistic, but my halfling was always encumbered anyways - with any treasure. going to max encumbrance was just a part of life

my strict requirement was that i was at least unencumbered with zero treasure. but end game GS always entailed having too much stuff and it was a constant battle

slate edge
#

But what about the non-purified adamantine full plate I want to wear!

chilly berry
#

I guess I don’t get it. My capped cleric is a halfling. Gets encumbered all the time. That’s just the way this game works, man. Figure out a way to get back safely or die. It’s something that makes this different from all the other games where you can have literal thousands of pounds of crap in your inventory (looking at Diablo for example). Now I have to make decisions that are meaningful.

My level 98 wizard is a giant man. Because encumbrance sucks and it was a better decision.

Got a human. And a sylvan. And a dark elf. And a dwarf. They all get encumbered after a box or two in the new system (okay. Haven’t checked the sylvan because he’s loot capped and has weight reduction gear). And I mean: Hunt endingly encumbered. I guess I just don’t get why it’s such a huge deal. Got a box. Cool. Lemme run back to town and stash 10k in my locker until I have a few more to get picked all at once or use the pool like a sieve. With the way macros work that takes 30 seconds and I’m back in it.

If i were so close to being lightly encumbered that picking up a couple wands and 1k in silvers pushes me over the edge then that’s a me issue. I need to downsize, locker, pawnshop, and toss the fluff. I like to have some level of wiggle room in there.

I have yet to find something that I can’t pick up in the new system. I did in the old system though. Halfling couldn’t get it. 125 and figure it out. We’re not going to be able to min-max every corner of this game.

digital turtle
digital turtle
# bright pasture maybe this is a little pessimistic, but my halfling was always encumbered anyway...

this! "at least unencumbered with zero treasure". New box weight is an issue. I think one would have to be pretty stubborn to not concede that boxes being so much heavier makes loot imbalanced for smaller races when they are supposedly trying to make all these changes so that loot gain can be more balanced. A bit of a contradiction. Can't help to think it was definitely an oversight or an afterthought.. if it wasn't, the change to being able to carry over your own weight would've been implemented at the same time, no?

bright pasture
chilly tulip
# chilly berry I guess I don’t get it. My capped cleric is a halfling. Gets encumbered all the ...

My level 98 wizard is a giant man. Because encumbrance sucks and it was a better decision. That's kind of the whole point. The smaller races are worse than the larger races. Encumbrance has always been a huge issue for the small races and this change just made it worse. Sure, there are some other benefits to the small races, but I don't think any of them outweigh the encumbrance thing. YMMV. You can Ascension yourself some points of dex to make up the bolt AS. You can't meaningfully improve your carrying capacity or encumbrance thresholds. 2lbs per rank of Porter is a joke.

jolly palm
#

I dont know if I agree that "smaller races are worse than larger races". BG has been one of the more popular races for a long time.

There are some significant statistical benefits of the smaller races even outside of pure stats... like the +80 Dodge bonus for BG's.

I feel like they'd have to re-examine the entire race statistic system if they went down the rabbit hole of adjusting encumbrance impact to smaller races. I say this as someone who's main is an aelotoi.

On the contrary, I do think something needs to be done around box weight. Maybe the impact of silvers should just be removed. It's weird to me that we have a system where I can drop 100,000,000 silvers on someone, and they can walk around just fine, but the moment they do anything that induces RT, it all falls apart. The cannon in my mind for how it's okay to have so many silvers is that we have different denominations of silvers for larger quantities, it just doesn't tell us in the game what that breakout is 😆

My vote is, keep races the same, just remove encumbrance from silvers, and let's make having different silver denominations the way we explain away that they don't weigh anything 😬

image.png
unique oyster
#

That is a thought. They could just change the weight of silver. It's something like 166 coins = 1 lb right now. Increase that number a bit and it helps everyone's encumbrance. The majority of weight coming from the loot IS the silver in those boxes. Well and the gold ingots but their weight is relative to the silvers' weight.

alpine walrus
#

If the point is to reduce silver generation and shorten hunts..... Why would they decrease the weight of silver .
Kinda defeats the entire Silverageddon plans, dosent it

jolly palm
#

I’ll add to that, hunting more means more “active playing time” - which also seemed to be a goal (in the exp & resource changes)

alpine walrus
#

I'm not seeing much difference in my Halfling Rogues hunting post Silverageddon
No WR, no max deep conditioners, but is using the 100# Simu enhancive

I think how the changes have settled out are good
Ya a 200# box bites... But it did before as well, but it was never brought up like it is now since 2/3 of boxes are gone

brazen salmon
#

A 200lb box wasn't a common pick up before... 50+ lb boxes weren't a norm at all. Maybe that's why it's being brought up now.

rugged jackal
#

Any insight if they are making any changes with junk bombs or do i just locker this thing because junk just doesn't drop anymore?

devout bobcat
#

They just need a Shanty Town junk shop!

rugged jackal
#

they just need to let us put anything we find in these things.

chilly berry
chilly tulip
#

Much like with bolt AS, you can enhance/ascend Logic. You can’t meaningfully make up for the carrying capacity/encumbrance deficiencies. It is such a significant disadvantage compared to any other racial mechanic difference, exacerbated by how lorge boxes get now.

crimson pond
#

I think having a difference is totally fine and sensible. Choices do matter. I think the kink in the armor for me is that the scaling of the various systems that they attempt to balance with race are not equal. Those extra STR/body weight advantages that a giant has baseline are then multiplied even further with how the encumbrance systems scale. Conversely, the improved AGI/DEX and/or LOG stats are nearly universally linear growth systems. You can hit almost all of the same thresholds with big races (especially the important ones re: base weapon RT). That is to say, the small size and AGI/DEX benefits don't equate to a 3-4x difference in those systems, whereas the encumbrance/carry capacity does.

That said, I will not make racial changes for mechanics - I think in general it is not quite as dire of a chasm to close as others might. BUT, I wouldn't hate a review.

And finally, while I certainly acknowledge that gnomes do have pretty excellent stat totals - I can't help but notice they're totally bereft of any of the fancy dancy TD advantages that their other stature-challenged compadres get to enjoy...

bright pasture
#

i think it also critically depends on where you are hunting. a large box in ME/HW is two seconds of inconvenience as long as you can pick the box up

slate edge
#

anything that involves a climb/swim or other mechanic that has issues when encumbered is going to make that hunting ground require the use of society abilities/spells or goldring/P2W items to circumvent. Not sure if you have both if there are any issues then. I'm thinking of Nelemar swim, OTF swim, SG has climb/swim I think? SOS has the pit climb that can be very dangerous to use when encumbered. That's all the ones I can think of off top of my head right now. If encumbrance could be removed from those various skill checks at those locations then it wouldn't be as much of an issue.

bright pasture
#

i went to SG once

hazy osprey
#

SG has lots of climbing and swimming, yes.

tribal relic
#

i know the intent with these changes was to slow silver generation ig along with whatever other goals were in mind. But these changes have really just killed what market gsiv had as far as players being able to sell anything let alone their services. NO ONE is buying anything. I have never sat on so many (3 prof) services at 200k for 2 weeks.

bright pasture
#

i think there would be something to say for having introduced the changes gradually, so as not to have shell-shocked the market. but here we are!

tribal relic
#

yep here we are for sure

hazy osprey
#

Charge less for services! It's what I'm doing.

tribal relic
brazen salmon
#

All of my services have gone to trading instead of buying/selling. I have a very hard time, especially in half a month of zero loot, to justify paying for services.

tribal relic
#

sad really, im hoping things will turn around even just a little. But honestly im not holding my breath

brazen salmon
#

It's going to be harder to justify spending 2m-4m/wk on one of 8 player serviced items when you're making 10-15m a month. Either prices will adjust or people will get less work done.

tribal relic
#

we will see a better picture after DR comes and goes until August. DR really isnt a steady thing so cant make a reasonable observation til then

split jacinth
#

has it been stated what the starting scaling of loot begins? Like 2 mil begin loot scaling down to 1% at 12m?

tribal relic
#

not sure, i stopped watching this channel. it was giving me a headache

old cedar
#

The announcement said 10m starting to scale until 1% at 15, didn't it?

split hamlet
#

Starts at 10m, gradual to 15m, then 1%

old cedar
#

The soft cap is being reduced from 15 million to 10 million. Treasure gain is gradually reduced between 10 and 15 million, then set to 1% for any gain thereafter.

tender condor
#

If I had to guess it drops 20% per million then holds at 1% after the 15. But just cause I see round numbers there no evidence.

chilly berry
#

Or just gradually:

if loot > 10_000_000
p = max(0.01, (15_000_000 - loot) / 5_000_000)

p is your percent chance of a full loot drop when searching. Or percent chance of getting any loot. And then it’s capped somehow.

There is some variability here because you can still get a nice enhancive or a decent gem even after loot cap

dusky kernel
#

I think the fresh month will solidify or annihilate many of these complaints, lets see what happens

sacred brook
#

there isn't a way to actually see where in cap you are right? other than monitor your bank account closely?

warm agate
#

An in game verb or command? No, I don't think so.

mossy forge
#

This shouldn't be hidden from the playerbase. I would even argue it should just be wrapped up into the WEALTH verb.

IMHO, I think that the WEALTH verb needs to change and just display everything that WEALTH ALL states. It isn't a lot of extra info that's being parsed otherwise. In WEALTH we should include how much silver's we have accumulated for the month as well as the current % of impact if over the 10m mark.

Just some thoughts.

harsh stirrup
#

I wonder if treasure got yanked 10 or 15 years ago if the game would even exist now. It's not about the silvers, it's about the principle, it's about coming home from a hard hunt with something to show for it.

brazen salmon
#

I think 10-15 years ago the community was still actively engaging in rp with healthy storylines... so maybe? But there were a lot more folks playing for rp back then too.

boreal bobcat
#

Back in my day we were happy to make it home with a full head of experience, let alone make it home at all.

mossy forge
rough vault
#

I wonder what a month of unlimited loot capacity will sell for in HESS.

boreal bobcat
#

500m sounds about right. Or I guess that's 500k bs since it's HESS.

mossy forge
#

Monthly subs for silvers...

finite trench
#

cut out the middleman!

dusky kernel
#

devil's advocate, what are people going to do with a LOOTCAP verb? You look at it and.. and then what? Let's say it tells you that you've looted 9.5m silvers this month. What are you going to do differently with this info? Anything more than confirm/deny bad luck with treasure?

rough vault
#

When achieving loot cap, a character should automatically be shown with the title Supreme despoiler [name] until the next month.

tender scarab
# dusky kernel devil's advocate, what are people going to do with a LOOTCAP verb? You look at i...

Know when to [switch Duskruin to bloodscrip/start turning in to the gladiator/stop buying more Duskruin entries]. Know when to stop hunting for loot and start hunting for exp.

Also the opposite, where you look at it and you've looted 5m and it's the 24th of the month and you're like "shoot, I better go hard until I hit loot cap." ...which is probably one reason they won't give it to us. 😂

tropic creek
tender condor
#

Yes. The exact stated reasons they said they would not be doing it.

icy sentinel
tender scarab
#

Thankfully, the dropoff is so steep that even without accurate tracking, I can tell when I'm not at loot cap because I'm still finding loot. So gotta go hard!

finite trench
#

Don’t do it duffield it’s too dangerous

dusky kernel
# 
Before you lays the altar of capitalism. The marble eyes of twelve captains of industry glare down upon you. 

>wealth meditate

*After a few moments of prayer and reflection you see a vision of 

an angry debt collector waiting at the bank teller. (0 to <10%)

moths flittering from an empty purse . (10 to <20%)

a crust of bread and some leathery thrak jerky. (20 to <30%) 

a coin purse jingling happily in a trader's hand. (30 to <40%)

an uncut emerald in the hand of a wizened jewler. (40 to <50%)

twin coinpurses. You stealthily empty the contents of one into your pockets. You have a sudden desire to empty the other purse too. (50 to <60%)

a merchant appraising the fit of a gold-filigreed gambeson in a mirror. (60 to <70%)

three spherical depressions in a suit of full plate armor, two filled with snowy white orbs. (70 to <80%)

a bag of holding, missing only a few veniom threads. (80 to <90%)

a path as it winds its way through a bank and to the edge of a pool of silvers. You have a sudden desire to jump in but cannot. (90 to <100%)

a golden whale sleeping upon an endless pile of treasure. You drive a sword into its belly, pull out its golden beating heart, and eat it. Golden blood drips from your chin. An overwhelming feeling makes you realize that you are indeed ready to take the next step along the Path to Whaledom. (100%)```
gloomy lark
#

I think the main and likely only reason they don’t want people to see exact lootcap is because people will immediately try 500 edge cases to try and find a loophole, I do think some vague messaging at different intervals like 20%/40%/60%/etc is a fair compromise though

chilly berry
#

I do fully support some kind of a notification that shows that you’re either between 10 to 15 mil or less than 10 mil or over 15 mil when you select your rewards during dusk ruin.

That way you don’t end up doing a run where you would never actually earn anything.

(To say nothing of the fact that I think it’s crap that we would pay for something and then not be able to actually capitalize on it in the way we want to. If this is gonna be the case, then just remove those rewards from dusk ruin)

Outside of that, I really would rather developer time go to other things.

boreal bobcat
#

The rewards shouldn't be removed because you don't like them. You have the option to remove them yourself by choosing another option.
If you're claiming someone's gonna be at 15m and not know it, I find that ridiculous.

chilly berry
main field
#

With this huge NE snowstorm IrL, I got an opportunity to hunt all weekend in ME…

It was full of phat loot… I have no idea how people aren’t able to hit loot cap now if you’re hunting like it’s a full time job.

tribal relic
#

With this new loot, who in the world is going to even hit 10m in a month? I'm genuinely curious. I'm barely scrapping 1m a week

boreal bobcat
#

I guess you're also assuming that being at 11m means your loot will somehow be dimished coming from the event? I don't think that will be the case at all. My comment was in direct relation to what you said:

If this is gonna be the case, then just remove those rewards from dusk ruin
Which I don't agree with one bit.

tribal relic
#

And please don't say get good I hate that saying

main field
tribal relic
main field
tribal relic
#

Sos I like but Rovvi struggles with. I could bring 2 others but I like to be respectful of other hunters and tend not to bring an army of mine into regular hunting grounds.

I guess I could try it for a month and see where I'm at

main field
#

Also … when I say 6 hours of hunting … I mean literally 6 hours of manual slaying… not kill a few mobs and rest… kill until you’re out of room/resources/death and repeat. My fingers are still cramped from holding down control and hitting enter.

chilly berry
# boreal bobcat I guess you're also assuming that being at 11m means your loot will somehow be d...

Fine, then don’t remove the silver rewards. But at least flag the user that they’ll be getting something diminished.

They said very specifically that event loot is now subject to loot cap. What does that mean if not getting diminished rewards for being at loot cap?

I think it’s OK to request some transparency on the issue before many of us drop a large amount of money. At about $0.71 per entry at the largest entry amount I do not believe that I am remotely in the wrong to request to know where I’m in loot cap before I choose my rewards. This is an information asymmetry problem that affects disclosure and informed consent.

boreal bobcat
#

If you're at loot cap, you will know it. Loot cap isn't 10 or 11 million.

Duskruin loot isn't exactly like searching a creature now is it? Yes they said it would count against your loot cap. That doesn't mean when you're item is generated it is based on any value. You get an item with random properties. If you're at loot cap I would expect you don't get an item. Shocker. If you are not at loot cap, I expect you will get an item, just like before. Only it will increment your lootcap up.

Removing silver rewards is not the answer to any of these issues you bring up was all I was saying.

main field
#

I’m sure that you’ll just hit loot cap from selling DR loot… get the same loot you would normally in the packages whether you’re at loot cap or not but when you’re hunting outside of DR… you’re at loot cap.

DR is a month long anyway, when it ends, you’ll be in a new loot cap window

chilly berry
boreal bobcat
safe epoch
# chilly berry Fine, then don’t remove the silver rewards. But at least flag the user that they...

I guess I don't understand why this isn't already happening. Why would PM or GM or whatever "team" members NOT want you to know when you are at or nearing loot cap? Why the mystery? I'm not sure why this suggestion/opinion is controversial in some way. A loot cap is an artificial OOC guardrail that I guess someone somewhere thinks is needed (Wyrom) and I'm not arguing... but I can also see no reason at all not to have a measuring stick of some kind to help players know... especially as you say... when choosing loot types at a paid event ... correction... EXPENSIVE paid event.

The other option is to simply not attend. Which I am considering.

From a business standpoint, it is called consumer confidence. Mine has been rattled the last few months. I don't really care if other players want to attack me for that... it just a simple truth. A little communication can really help with folks' confidence. That's just fact.

rough vault
#

It will also be interesting to see if the market will adjust the silvers:event currency ratio away from the target 1000:1.

boreal bobcat
#

I think claim is what keeps that in line. So interesting to see how claim does this go around.

chilly berry
# boreal bobcat Could you point to anything I said that invalidates any point you made other tha...

From my perspective: I’ve was arguing for transparency and you responded with assumptions about how you think it should work based on previous runs. but what we think based on previous runs is no necessarily valid because it’s a different loot system. Will generation in sewers be hampered by partial cap at 10m? 11m? To quote George Washington: “No one knows.”

I agree, removing the loot reward option was a bad suggestion on my part.

If I misunderstood you or offended, I apologize.

boreal bobcat
#

I can with 100% confidence claim that loot will continue to drop as it was at least until you hit 15m! Afterwards is anybody's guess.

Edit: Just my opinion, but I feel it's correct where as usually I will state in uncertain terms.

#

You know why I can say this? Because the loot generated from duskruin is basically straight silver. It's not a gem you can purify for way more value than it generates at. Trading can't take it over the 25k cap.

wispy forum
chilly berry
# boreal bobcat You know why I can say this? Because the loot generated from duskruin is basical...

Yes, that's correct. But what we don't know is where in the pipeline the new loot cap system changes the value proposition.

If a person is at 11m, pretend that's a 20% reduction in loot for the sake of discussion.

Will they get something that is 20% less valuable from the loot system? Or 20% less drops? Or, as you suggested, be a full value drop, but still just tick against loot cap for the whole value? I think some clarification is in order.

It changes the value proposition of the event reward selection in terms of real dollars

rough vault
#

The arena options need to be better calibrated to align with the loot changes. If an average treasure item generated from arena is now worth 25,000 silvers, that is the equivalent value of 25 bs. Why would I want the extra 10 bs then? A better solution would be to incent 250, 500, and 1000 run blocks where you get nothing immediately but then get to select something new from a prize wall worth approximately 5000, 10000, 20000 bs

boreal bobcat
#

The average treasure generated is not worth 25k though.
It varies greatly from a couple thousand to the max. The average would not be the max.
I bet Leafiara could give us a pretty accurate average though for the previous years.

rough vault
#

Fair enough but 2/3ish will be at 25k....still higher value than 10 bs which is why my values were in between rounded.

boreal bobcat
#

Man if 2/3 of my sales from the arena were at max value I would be running a lot more arena.

tender scarab
#

17k silver was roughly my average. Would go down a little now with 25k pawn caps instead of 35k, but probably still above the value of 10 bloodscrip.

Jewelry did a lot of work bringing up the average too and that’s still there.

dusky kernel
rough vault
#

And that assumed you wouldn't find anything worth putting in your shop. One 4x claidh or 7x runestaff and you win.

dusky kernel
#

whats going to happen when people who have hit loot cap choose loot for arena and sewers? Like you are guaranteed a piece of loot - is it all going to be like, steel quoits?

rough vault
#

They really should spend time rethinking the random treasure generator for duskruin...it's stale and would benefit from more exotic materials and less random useless enhansives

boreal bobcat
#

Maybe it will just be marked with one of those unremovable marks so you can't sell it. No reason to stop giving out enhancives that just transfer wealth!

dusky kernel
#

15,000,000 / 25,000 = 600 runs. What is the average number of runs that people do in DR?

rough vault
#

Most do under 100 but people here do thousands. Many now trade in for experience rather than grind anything.

main field
#

I thought a few years back Wyrom released some absurb statistics… the average player spent like $38 or something on DR?

It was definitely less than the cost of two movie tickets and all the fixings

rough vault
#

If the bandit cache effect gets added to arena you'll see more doing it again.

timber kraken
rough vault
#

They were supposedly brainstorming a new must have jackpot drop item to chase in arena to replace pendants and bag of holdings and rats. If that was so, the current treasure could be legitimately nerfed without protest. It would be amusing if the item was gauntlets of ogre power that let the wearer hold and carry a 400lb box without encumbrance.

timber kraken
#

There’s so much garbage loot that comes from the arena and sewers, and there’s such a gap between what players actually use and what spawns from there that they could dial it up easily without flooding the market.

Just nuke the silver value and let the treasure hunters have fun again 🙂

tawny sierra
boreal bobcat
#

It's definitely not valued at the loresong value, can't player appraise it. Could be some really arbitrary number but I would expect it to be what you can generate from it at sale in the condition it generates in.
So I would expect jewelry to hit you for the gemshop price not the pawnshop price unless gemshop won't buy it.

I suppose there is possibly a third value, what the merchant tells you it's worth but won't buy it at that. I'll start recording that as well, but seems highly unlikely unless it's new behavior.

timber kraken
tawny sierra
boreal bobcat
#

Yeah much harder to tell if there's something specific to DR loot as well. I'm definitely not loot capping in the arena to test it 😁

timber kraken
#

Pretty sure they will clarify that for us, one way or another

tribal relic
main field
#

If less people do DR… it means BS will become more valuable as well, or people will still just turn it in for xp/scrip.

If DR curbs silver generation by 10%… wouldn’t that be an overall win?

timber kraken
#

BS is effectively fixed rate due to the gladiator now. Shouldn’t matter if people run the arena or not

main field
dusky kernel
pastel anvil
# main field I did 4mil/day split two ways in ME … probably 6 hours of hunting.

Kinda my problem with the new system. For people hitting loot cap, they're going to spend roughly 3/4 of the month making 0 loot. Would be better to see a higher percent once you cap (Around 5% so you're actually getting something) and a sliding scale for hitting cap to stretch out the month. For example, 100% loot up to first 5M then each 1M reduce your loot by 10% up to 14M where it then stays at 5% for the rest of the month. I think spending 3/4 of the month at no loot is going to hurt engagement and ultimately lead to a smaller player base.

still sigil
#

Do we know the percent of people hitting loot cap? It feels like if the median is under 3m, that people loot capping might make up such a small percent forcing silvers that, maybe, they can lose out a littlwe.

chilly berry
tender scarab
#

The average being as much higher than the median as it is makes me think a fairly high percentage of people will hit at least the 10m mark.

dusky kernel
#

these changes are designed to change behavior. If you hit loot cap in the first week, your way of life is about to change

jolly palm
#

We wont have a good feel for how much loot people are naturally generating from hunting until the end of March.
January - bad data based on the change happening mid month
February - DR - Not normal production
March - Yay. Finally people hunt a full month with their new behaviors in place.

safe epoch
#

Do you guys think this will negatively impact DR sales? I can't help but think excluding DR would have been a better move and not moved the needle that much.

Maybe it won't make a difference... but I can't shake the feeling that there is a distinct anti-DR sentiment right now.

jolly palm
chilly berry
#

I don't think so. I don't have evidence for this. But people are irrational.

boreal bobcat
#

We're not gonna let you bypass lootcap with dr loot anymore doesn't seem anti-DR honestly.

finite trench
pastel anvil
tender scarab
# safe epoch Do you guys think this will negatively impact DR sales? I can't help but think ...

I don’t think it’s going to and that’s exactly what I’m worried about. People who don’t keep up with all the nuances of loot changes buying in to the tune of thousands of entries, then realizing they “wasted” some amount because this they’ll exceed loot cap easily.

That might sound like a ridiculous scenario, but remember this is the same playerbase where people were apparently losing hundreds of thousands of exp from gladiator turn-ins by doing silly things like going into the arena with no deeds, or running around with tens of millions of silver in their pockets and then getting killed and decaying, both of which eventually led to game changes.

mellow gyro
#

Players want BS. The silvers and pawn items are just a byproduct

boreal bobcat
#

Terrible game changes at that! Darwin Award should be a thing!

tender scarab
chilly berry
tender condor
#

Not everyone treats gemstone like it’s part of their retirement portfolio. A lot of people just do whatever and apparently a lot of them also are like “yeah I’ll spend a grand on a flipflorb sword” this chat will do anything except accept it’s almost entirely comprised of outliers.

shell phoenix
#

Wait.. where is this flipflorb sword? I want it.

safe epoch
# jolly palm I haven't felt that sentiment at all. A lot of folks I chat with are actually th...

Interesting in the use of the word "confidence" here. Given my shaken confidence since CA implementation, I was wisely advised that maybe not buying that big item or those big items isn't the best plan.

I guess I was just wondering about the runs in general impacting folks' purchase of entries. Hit loot cap... no huge BS purchases to make... no reason to buy more entries.

Given my lack of confidence the whims of GM/PMs, I chose not to make any major purchases this round at the advice of a very high roller. I have a couple small items to buy with BS. Already have more entries than I need. So I can see Simu getting $0 from me this time. That is literally thousands less than usual. Just wondering how it goes.

To be clear, the silver cap doesn't impact me really.

pastel anvil
# tender condor Not everyone treats gemstone like it’s part of their retirement portfolio. A lot...

I'd say only a small handful treat GS this way, but that doesn't change the fact that hunting for no loot and slow exp gains will eventually lead to less engagement. One day a player will decide they'll just stop playing until loot cap reset and eventually they move on to other things.

A slower pace to hitting loot cap would fix this. Actually having loot pressure would help as well. Hitting 0 loot for even half a month will lead to players finding other entertainment for that part of the month and eventually just moving on.

chilly berry
tender condor
jolly palm
# mellow gyro Players want BS. The silvers and pawn items are just a byproduct

Not for everyone. For some, the byproduct was the reason they participated.

There are handfuls of folks that farm millions and millions of BS for other folks, selling them for "Silvers".
The "Extra goodies" from farming, is typically what the people who farm keep as their "profit".

Less incentive to farm means the farmers either sell the BS for more than before.... Which also means fewer people buying the $1000 premium simucoin packages.

Fewer people buying the $1000 premium simucoin packages means that the general population likely has to pay more for BS on average. That could also mean less simucoin sales overall.

boreal bobcat
#

I guess those players should have had a little restraint and not strip mined the game for all the silver it had to give and they wouldn't be in the boat of having no loot for half a month.

split hamlet
#

Why would anyone pay more for BS when it's a fixed cost.

safe epoch
wispy forum
pastel anvil
tender condor
#

General mechanical uncertainty I think hinders sales more than lol silver economy for what is a dollar backed event. People being like “I don’t know if my bard/empath/sorc/wizard will be something I want to play if CHANGES happen” matter a lot more than only getting 15m a month to instead of 22m

split hamlet
#

That makes absolutely no sense whatesoever. It's a fixed cost, and the cost has a very minor difference based upon the SC purchase. With the gladiator, it takes zero effort to create bloodscrip, as much as you want.

jolly palm
safe epoch
chilly berry
pastel anvil
tender scarab
wispy forum
jolly palm
# pastel anvil I almost never hit loot cap on the old system. I do now. Killing 100 straight ...

But you dont know if you'll hit loot cap with the new system yet though.

It launched after you had 1/2 a month of the old loot generation already under your belt.

It can be reasoned that by the time of the loot update, you already had the equivalent of an entire month's worth of loot under your belt already.

So if you were still generating loot after the update.... you may not actually hit loot cap with the new system

wispy forum
# safe epoch Interesting in the use of the word "confidence" here. Given my shaken confidenc...

id say this has always been true with event spends - you run the risk of buying something they might change, or that becomes devalued based on other stuff they add - I know I as a player am always hungry for the teasers and the "NEW STUFF OMG" they are gonna show us every event

That said, I think the dev team genuinely wants to offer us fun cool new things to buy and have fun with; i don't get the impression AT ALL that they are making things to try to invalidate our previous purchases; I think that's just an occasional unfortunate happenstance at times, and to be fair the staff has been quite willing to try to make things right by players who feel slighted on real money purchases, at least in my experience

jolly palm
#

I also think it has been a bit exaggerated how bad the nerfs were from CA.

No nerf ever feels that good.... but they did a pretty good job re-balancing most things that got hit hard out of the gate.

I acknowledge this is open to opinino and everyone's experience and perception of big/small nerf is different.

chilly berry
shell phoenix
#

I'm not sure how not getting loot is "boring" when it's almost all just immediately sold to the pawnshop. How many people actually look to see what they looted instead of just script selling it?

wispy forum
chilly berry
safe epoch
# wispy forum id say this has always been true with event spends - you run the risk of buying ...

I appreciate the insight. @jolly palm has also been especially helpful in understanding. As I've only been back for going on two years now, and I hit the ground running pretty hard. When I then experienced some nerfs (big or small) I got pretty hot about it.

I agree that "the team" is responsive to a degree and I'm not trying to be dramatic. But as I pointed out, "consumer confidence" is a thing... a BIG thing for anyone in business. Mine is not good right now. So I'm backing off. Canceling a bit and seeing how things are moving.

jolly palm
jolly palm
# safe epoch I appreciate the insight. <@219836905297018880> has also been especially helpf...

Yeah. That’s a totally fair take on it. Especially only being a few spend events in…. Seeing anything take a hit would spook.

I would be shocked if any more significant nerfs (to the degree of CA) came about for a long time.

In the last 3-4 years, i really can’t think of any that nerfed something’s power.

There have been a few where the VALUE of unique items got nerfed by other more powerful things were released. But that’s slightly different.

tender scarab
# shell phoenix I'm not sure how not getting loot is "boring" when it's almost all just immediat...

If you’re talking about Duskruin loot, I always looked at it after they added automatic temporary loresongs and still looked at things that the pawnshop appraised highly enough before that.

If you’re talking about normal loot, I pause for anything appraising over like 100k or any jewelry that the gem shop won’t buy.

That’s me, but as a matter of optimization, people who were just script selling without looking at anything and could hit the old cap should reconsider looking now. It doesn’t take enough time to stop them from hitting the new loot cap, but they could find the occasional item genuinely worth millions to other players.

shell phoenix
#

I have lockers full of duskruin loot I held on to just to melt into slabs or woodchopper box that I never did... I should have sold them before the pawnshop got decreased

chilly berry
pastel anvil
boreal bobcat
#

Yeah they probably will. I would expect it to be much slower since generation was also lowered...

mellow gyro
#

I'd like a discussion around RP with this much vigor. We got per minute and per penny breakdowns on this stuff

split hamlet
#

If RP cost thousands of dollars I think there would be a per minute and per penny breakdown.

slate bluff
#

Maybe there needs to be more RP-related rewards and boosts. You participated in this 3 month storyline and get X trinket or Y wisdom boost (+1 CS). What could go wrong...

#

Also, when are we getting battlepass system... kill 1000 HW, 1000 Hive, 1000 Sailors Grief, and get uber item.

wispy forum
#

I just dont play this game for the rp personally - i just enjoy the progression - to each their own for sure, i just dunno how big an appetite there would be for 1000 dollar rp events - maybe though?

rigid sparrow
#

I'm not going to read this whole thread haha. I dunno if this has been mentioned but at loot cap it is taking upwards of 30 minutes to finish an OSA ship after everything is dead because I have a 1% chance to get a box from the pile, and I have to get all of the boxes to get the crate and raze the ship.

finite trench
#

okay THAT's funny

split hamlet
slate bluff
long coral
#

Since last Sunday I have noticed a slight increase in silvers generated after "loot cap". This suggest to me that that there is a weekly throttle also and not just the monthly cap. Now it's possible folks are just leaving stuff on the ground and I'm getting it, so I'd be interested to hear others experiences. Has the loot cap implementation not only put a cap on loot, but now dictates when you must find that loot?

uncut juniper
dusky kernel
sleek meadow
#

The SE size is always going to make it more valuable than an ingot sized Pro. Pro are the equivalent of the new Boxes and no one wants those in their pocket. Curious are people doing OSA hitting the cap faster than those hunting other places?

warm agate
brazen salmon
chilly tulip
#

Getting no loot is so incredibly boring

brazen salmon
#

I think the general response is "...hunt less hard next month."

remote egret
#

Is that not a fair response? I just got 40 60lbs+ boxes on my last hunt! Granted...it is not "exciting loot" by anymeans

brazen salmon
#

I suppose that depends on which side of loot cap you're on.

strong lake
#

"Play less" is such a wild take and a complete loss of the plot.

remote egret
brazen salmon
#

I think there's a misconception there. "Farming 35m/mo" isn't what a number of us did. It's a byproduct of how/where/how much we hunt.

For me, it's more the exp gains than the loot, but that doesn't change the fact that spending 16 days this month finding next to no loot diminishes my enjoyment of hunting. It feels bad, and I think it's not unreasonable to think that even people who don't play the game that way can see how it could suck.

chilly tulip
jolly palm
# brazen salmon I think there's a misconception there. "Farming 35m/mo" isn't what a number of u...

I do think we need to wait for a normal month for everyone to assess how long and what the "end of month" loot cap impacts will be.

Everyone is reacting to this drop that came on the 16th of January.
It's hard for me to get a good gauge based on the timing of the drop, but Loot production/generation appears to have been cut more than in 1/2 on normal hunts.

Which means when this dropped. Everyone already had TWICE as much loot for the month as they're likely to have by the 16th.

Based on the feedback given on how & who loot will impact. They're not expecting everyone to hit 15m consistently, and if they do, it definitely wont be midway through the month. Will some people? Yes. Were those people likely hitting soft cap by the 15th normally? Most likely.

The experience everyone is getting in January is NOT indicative of how it will flow on a full month.

rough vault
#

Are you still eligible for jackpot legendary finds and keys after lootcap?

brazen salmon
jolly palm
#

just a few more days! almost there 🙂

chilly berry
#

I do enjoy getting something, even if it isn't much, after 15m.

dusky kernel
strong lake
#

I think that would seem predatory

chilly tulip
#

At this point I'd take bumping gemstone finds up to 4/char/month, give us something to keep hunting for beyond 3 jewels/15m. Most gemstones are terrible. I don't see how allowing more of them out would hurt.

remote egret
rapid reef
#

I'm baffled all these power users that are loot capping so quick don't have second accounts

chilly tulip
strong lake
#

I know this is a 'me' problem, but I've always played real fast and loose with my silver. I play a lot, I earned a lot, I spent a lot. Just me, my one account, my one capped character, and a dream. This change feels gross because it directly diminishes future prospects and there is no way to spin it to not feel that way. I feel as though I am now poor, and I will always be poor. Again, this is a me problem.

I'm also a cynic. I can't help but see people championing things and try to look at it from their angle... and well... the quiet part is if you already have a lot of silver wealth, the ladder has now been firmly kicked out from behind you, and your wealth will never be challenged again. That's an absolute win from that perspective, so I get it.

To the folks that are all, "I never hit loot cap and it's fine", well... I have great news. You won't have to worry about it, because even if you get to a point in the game where you COULD have made a lot of silver in a month... you now can't, and likely never will.

jolly palm
#

But all the prices will come down - we're like 2 weeks in and I'm already seeing services come down 500k-1m per service, relative to what they were a few months ago.

Fewer silvers will go further, it's just going to take a little time.

People also aren't buying things for what they used to. Trust me, i'm trying to sell a LOT of stuff

chilly tulip
# strong lake I know this is a 'me' problem, but I've always played real fast and loose with m...

The sad truth is, at 35m loot cap we were never going to challenge their wealth either. I got blackpilled about this at the auction. I had finally hit my stride making a ton of silver for years, maxing loot cap, etc. Got outbid on the only thing I wanted, and even if I'd had another 50m to raise the bid, they would have raised it 100. Some folk will just always own all the good gear. In a way, this hasn't changed much as far as that goes. But I think the really wealthy aren't going to blink at popping open another 6 accounts to keep the silver pouring in.

chilly berry
# dusky kernel would you pay simucoins to have a higher loot cap? Plenty of games (well mobile ...

I already pay to play the game, pay extra to make working with others easier and (now) have a bigger exp bucket.

I'm not sure what to make of this, honestly. From one perspective it makes sense: a partial corporate driver behind loot cap reduction was lost revenue through claims from silver. Would I rather give the company that keeps the game alive money for more silvers than to acquire them maybe via other means? Yeah, that might make sense.

Feels "icky" though. I'm not really sure how to verbalize what doesn't work for me there.

brazen salmon
# jolly palm But all the prices will come down - we're like 2 weeks in and I'm already seeing...

Prices won't come down though. We've already been told gemstone costs won't be decreased which is a massive silver sink. Players who haven't been loot capping are now going to hit ascension and have to farm for 6+ months... and that's just to unlock slots, not even addressing all the other costs involved.

So we're taking about after market things, I guess?

Even if prices do eventually trend downward, that doesn't change anything he said really.

strong lake
#

This just seems like a whole lot of effort and discourse to avoid policing policy on botting.

jolly palm
# brazen salmon Prices won't come down though. We've already been told gemstone costs won't be d...

The player to player market is where costs come down, which is where MOST silvers are exchanged.

Gemstone & Services. Those are the primary two things people spend silvers on.

The cost of acquiring gemstones have already dropped dramatically. Legendaries are selling for 20m-30m.
Services are already dropping, i track consistently and they're down 500k to 1m per service (varies by profession and tier) consistently from a few months ago

The cost at the artificer hasn't come down, but that's a smaller bite at the total cost of gemstones

brazen salmon
chilly tulip
#

Neither gemstones nor services dropping change the calculus for the people who were already wealthy before the loot changes remaining the most wealthy, being able to sweep auctions, etc. I get that auctions are a small piece of the game pie but after long enough you get to a point where they're one of your only targets/goals. How much player service gear do you really need, etc.

jolly palm
jolly palm
# chilly tulip Neither gemstones nor services dropping change the calculus for the people who w...

But you guys are attacking an entirely different problem.

Your anger should be at a secondary market or MA'ing. Not the loot system.

The changes the team made are there to close the gap on production and make things more balanced. People willing to spend more than you will ALWAYS have more, as long as a secondary market, or multi accounts exist. And additionally The gap from MA'ers was reduced dramatically with the updates.

chilly tulip
#

The thing is gemstones aren't... that good? Unlocking all 5 slots with today's loot cap seems zero percent worthwhile. You're going to spend 5 months of lootcap for that 5th slot? I feel like you can just skip it.

slate bluff
#

Gemstones can be pretty darn good. Alot of the abilities are like 100K BS+ stuff ripped from DR scripts
They aren't nothing. That last unlock slot does hurt though.

dusky kernel
#

When you get to that point of considering "what's the most efficient upgrade for me", 50m for gemstone slot #5 is pretty darn low on that list. I feel like I wouldn't even unlock slots unless I already had the gem to go with it

strong lake
chilly tulip
brazen salmon
#

Oh no, our anger is most definitely directed at MAing, but just like simu we can't say the quiet part out loud or deal with it, so we get to complain about how yet again.... policies meant to curb the MA/scripting problem inadvertantly !@#$% over the rest of us.

jolly palm
# chilly tulip Oh I would love them to only permit a single logon per IP, lol. But that's not m...

lol, yes. Minor detail 😉

and I agree on your take on the last gemstone slot not adding that much power. The last 5%, 10% gain is always the most expensive. Similar to the addition of each gem that adds just a little more power....
Prime example, people spend $2000-$3000 at mania for a DF% item that boosts 5% (i'm saying that's how much the Bloodscrip costs for what they paid.... not saying it's a cash purchase, to be clear)
That last extra gemstone slot could be the DF% gain slot you need to compare to a $3000 bloodscrip spend.
You can get that with 90m and some luck finding the right gem!

boreal bobcat
#

I’m loot capped by week one but ma is the problem guys!

finite trench
brazen salmon
slate bluff
#

I am seriously starting the feel the pressure of my spending in context of the monthly lootcap.... Anyone else feeling squeezed?

warm agate
#

I encourage all of you that feel passionate about this to write Feedback if you haven't already.

dusky kernel
#

I havent bought anything since the auction lol

jolly palm
boreal bobcat
#

Sounds like people should have prioritized their spending! Imagine how many gemstone slots could be bought if all your silver wasn’t wasted at the auction!

Imagine admitting to rushing loot cap before the change only to complain about no loot for half the month.

People cause themselves so many problems.

visual oar
#

is the lootcap verb going to happen?

slate bluff
#

Wake me up when they selling 250k warrior grit and 750k guile
Although it sounds to me Devs aren't going to lower one single item since the new lootcap. So we stuck with high prices.

brazen salmon
dusky kernel
jolly palm
slate bluff
#

Technically if there are 500 players only making 2mil per month still then they are in no way affected so Devs dont really need to lower any item prices. It would meaningful to see what is the new "% of accts hitting lootcap"
I can probably attest that so far the new lootcap may have cost me 20-30m just in Jan..... There goes my play money! 😭

chilly tulip
#

Having a tremendous chortle at the rogues still trying to get 2m/week for guile, tbh

slate bluff
#

I have legit spent over 500mil on guile over all my characters lol

finite trench
#

in god's name why

crimson pond
#

Zhagen single handedly keeping CA alive

strong lake
#

So I guess my thought process may be flawed and may require an ELI5, but... even on the longest timeline... nothing actually gets fixed by any of this?

brazen salmon
#

Simu gets more account subs, that's a... that's a something

shrewd mountain
#

Will they, though? I can't help wondering how many people got frustrated by the changes, felt unheard, and quietly unsub'd.

slate bluff
strong lake
#

100 becomes the new 1000, but every symptom and cause remains in place.

dusky kernel
finite trench
#

the pressure to multi account is already so great that I doubt this change will lead to more multi accounting. everyone at all interested in doing it presumably already was

crimson pond
#

But he said legit. That means it has to be true

boreal bobcat
brazen salmon
#

The resource rollback probably lowered the number of new MA accounts, but it wouldn't surprise me if we saw more.

shrewd mountain
#

No no... legit means "I'm lying". GENUINELY means it has to be true.

finite trench
#

no, nobody who was willing to MA was like "oh I'll just play alts on the same account for resources," it was always obviously and incontrovertibly better to just MA, and still is

slate bluff
brazen salmon
#

Eh, I've literally had people dm me their new account breakdown, and it includes more prime accounts, less prem/plat. Soooo maaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaybe blanket statements aren't the way to go here, yeah?

dusky kernel
crimson pond
#

Necroing the topic of racial disparity - I'm now wondering why "maximum carry capacity" is a thing at all. Isn't the encumbrance system a sufficient ceiling all on its own? I feel like it could just be removed entirely. We have item quantity limits already aside from that.

shrewd mountain
slate bluff
#

Are most of us here going to be crying again as soon as Feb 10th, bored out of our minds picking single brown zircons every 15 minutes?

finite trench
strong lake
slate bluff
#

One does not simply GET 3 Gemstones..... what is this madness.
The blood, sweat, and tears cannot be discounted!

boreal bobcat
#

You guys heard it here first. Jaired is intent on getting generation lowered even more!

brazen salmon
#

MTK is only getting equipped until I find my gemstone for the week.

strong lake
lucid latch
#

I'm making 12 silver for valvarn plumes. Only need to grind out 10 million of them to trigger another lootcap reduction. Challenge accepted?

rigid sparrow
dusky kernel
dusky kernel
wispy forum
#

seems like due to the way gemstone drops work, the play was already to be MA'ing as much as you can stomach

finite trench
#

always has been

boreal bobcat
#

Would just be bad business to kneecap paying subscribers!

wispy forum
#

like i have 3 premium accounts, but i'm just a dummy - they should be standard accounts so i can acquire more silvers and more gemstones per month (provided the other premium benefits don't make up for the lost loot opportunities) for the same usd cost

rapid reef
#

standard/premium/platinum all have the same loot cap, correct?

boreal bobcat
#

Yes, they all have the same lootcap, and provide other benefits.

chilly tulip
#

If you are premium with multiple characters on the account, you will get more silver and an easier time farming gemstones (assuming you solo the characters, at least) by spinning each character off onto a basic account

boreal bobcat
#

I guess technically premium gets a higher lootcap in the form of artificer discounts!

I'd be more concerned with the profession disparity in loot cap myself!

chilly tulip
#

Engaging with the gemstones system? In this economy?

brazen salmon
finite trench
#

the two benefits of a premium account that multiple regular accounts don't do better are lockers and FWI, that's what you get instead of having multiple accounts gaining value at once. but you probably don't need multiple premium accounts to get the benefits from those

boreal bobcat
#

Yeah one premium platinum main and the rest on standards.

calm bay
#

There are more than that, and I would suggest that the locker benefits are more a QOL one since there are methods of storage one can employ without premium lockers. Having just recently switched to premium myself, they definitely more convenient! IMO, one of the best benefits of premium mechanically are the premium points and premium enhancives you can build up over time. I will admit that the loot changes do make me reconsider the conversion to premium and my recent character transfer off a 2nd account.

slate bluff
#

Maybe they do need standard lootcap 15m, prem lootcap 25m, plat lootcap 35m?

rapid reef
#

more likely 10/20/30

calm bay
#

Or give a bonus for actively playing multiple characters on the same account since then you're promoting active engagement with the system, but not isolating it to individual characters (i.e. I can make more money on my quadruple capped character, so I just hunt them the whole time).

boreal bobcat
#

Lootcap should be the same for everyone, otherwise what's the point?

frozen tusk
#

Sell subscription upgrades

slate bluff
#

How about this, still 15mil lootcap, premium accounts get 5mil added to main bank account at beginning of month, Plat gets additional 5mil at the beginning of month?

boreal bobcat
#

They should probably actually deduct some of the premium benefits from your loot cap honestly. they're so good.

I mean they even let you bring your plat character over here to the real world. That's crazy value for a platinum subscription. That you isn't any you in particular...

calm bay
#

Premium/Platinum does "save money" in some regards since they get more free simucoins per month + have cheaper simucoin store costs, which translates to in-game value that is often overlooked when doing a purely in-game currency generation perspective.

minor falcon
#

premmy gets larger xp pools now and everything else. also get lumnis on all your characters. Points to spend every month. centralized location you can access from HW with pawnshop, gemshop, etc...

tons of storage on all characters too...

slate bluff
#

Each event you can redeem up to 100K currency for silvers at standard 1:1 ratio.... (Its technically not buying silvers)
Straight up kill the secondary market, assasinate the sellers!

dusky kernel
boreal bobcat
#

I mean buying 100k silver for 100k bs seems like an amazing bs sink. I just don't know where you're gonna find people with tbi's to buy in.

chilly tulip
strong lake
#

My gut reaction to sub levels affecting loot cap is no. It doesn't seem right, buuuut... all other perks aside, should 3.34 basic accounts get 3x the loot advantage over 1 Plat account? It's a chin scratcher.

calm bay
#

Are silvers super useful in Plat? Asking seriously since I have no experience with the platinum economy. (edit: oh, did plat merge into "prime"?) Must have all changed while I was on hiatus.

brazen salmon
#

Plat doesn't really exist anymore. Anyone who wanted to got ported over to prime, had all their stuff bound to them and uh... plat is empty now.

rapid reef
#

did they ad any plat benefits? I know they get more pp

strong lake
#

Silvers were admittedly useless in Plat before the merge, yes. That is just turning into another bit of salt into the wound, however, since all of our gear down to our small statues were attuned to the account. We can't even try to sell any of our things to recoup some of our investment? It was part of 'the deal' to be able to keep playing our characters at all in Prime.

remote egret
#

Whales want more!

calm bay
#

I weirdly want to say it isn't the "whales" that are irritated in this case since the classic definition of a whale would absolutely never get silver capped in a month as they use their disposable RL income to reduce overall "effort" in game. Buying convenience vs farming to silver cap is absolutely not convenient.

tawny sierra
#

Here's my bad idea for this lootcap

1a. make all functional item treasure account tuned and temp bard unlocked.
1b. these are not counted towards lootcap and can still drop at a normal rate.
2. cost silvers to unattune, cant pawnshop attuned items.  
3. cap stays on gems/silvers/skins etc. 
4. frustrates the automated MA mobs a little with manual inventory management. 
5. lets people in loot cap still have a chance at finding something worthwhile.
jolly palm
boreal bobcat
#

That's how the silvers are gonna get drained yeah? Lowered loot cap so we're not generating as much and the whales buying the excess billions the dragons are sitting on!

#

You're only gonna frustrate the little people with until eloot releases the update!

jolly palm
boreal bobcat
#

I do think enhancives should just be unsellable out right and drop regardless of lootcap. What's the harm in transferring silvers between players.

wispy forum
#

For a main premium feels worth it, but why do i have 3 premiums, i think im just dumb

strong lake
#

My super bad idea is to turn off loot cap all together. Get rid of it. Change loot acquisition to require you to A) Be able to learn from what you are hunting and B) Loot and skin values drop off significantly when you're fried/saturated.

No more farming. No more incentive to bot. You actually gotta play the game at like-level while adhering to the fry/rest schedule like the coders intended.

Leave the current loot model with no loot cap in Shattered. Allow character transfers. Call it a day.

slate bluff
#

Or maybe Lumnis donation now have an extra 7x/6x tier for plat/prem lol

strong lake
#

I realize this opens up abuse by just hunting level 90 things... so maybe overall loot value has a +/- depending on levels over/under the character. This could incentivize overhunting. And oh... Gemstones become way easier to find, full stop.

brazen salmon
#

Yea but with exp and resource gathering no longer linked, who cares about how much exp your resource-farm alts are getting.

calm bay
tawny sierra
calm bay
#

Don't critters generate w/ loot (mainly weapons) that have nothing to do with the loot cap? I dunno how the code would detect that a specific player is looting the target so delete the weapon they've been swinging before it gets looted. My F2P characters would find tons of enhancive or just generally nice weapons off critters and they're basically always loot capped (have found a bunch of 3-4x katanas, sephwir, and other misc enhancive weapons on F2P characters).

strong lake
#

A loot capped character can absolutely find a mob swinging a golvern claid and get 25k for it at the pawn shop, yes.

brazen salmon
#

I don't believe this, someone should send me one to verify.

boreal bobcat
#

And now that there isn't an actual loot cap you can still find nice enhancives off critters if you're lucky enough. Bout like finding that legendary gemstone but it happens!

dusky kernel
brazen salmon
#

...I mean it could.

strong lake
finite trench
#

oh, I don't think so. it's easy to empty your experience pool. just get killed. you'd spark a new revolution in optimal MA gameplay

brazen salmon
#

I'd love to see the numbers on how much extra silver generation happened after the gemstone release... wasn't it like an additional 2-5B? They shouldn't be so hard to find, esp with the entire market tanked now.

But yeah, it would mean more accounts to spread the loot to more empty buckets, and people aren't going to like having to split up their MA groups to continue generating loot.

boreal bobcat
# 
Uphunting by 5+ levels will increase the treasure rating, resulting in a better chance for special goodies and improving the odds for regular loot. The greater the uphunting, the greater the treasure rating modifier.

Underhunting by 10+ levels will result in a reduction in treasure rating (resulting in no chance for special goodies and a reduced chance for other loot).

For determination of Uphunting/Underhunting modifiers, all contributing players are factored in. If Bob the 100th level Cleric Binds hill trolls so Billy the 5th level warrior can kill them, the treasure rating factors in that Bob is way underhunting. (Way!) Treasure is no longer based just on the searcher's level.

So these just need to be more drastic, and no loot when must rest?

strong lake
#

I just continue to fail to see how throttling down a symptom does anything to address the cause.

finite trench
#

loot should scale down with the mind state xp multiplier

frozen tusk
boreal bobcat
#

Gemstones have their own drop mechanics, and are exempt from loot cap. So it would still be a plus, because strip mining for your gemstone you wouldn't be finding loot.

You hear all these complaints about boxes and gemstone farming anyways!

brazen salmon
frozen tusk
#

Lol, reminds me of yesterday.

Show me the data.
Data from staff.
I don't think the data is accurate.

brazen salmon
finite trench
#

requests for data are generally an expression of distrust, which data cannot allay

strong lake
#

If the Gemstone Farming is a problem... literally no one would be mad about Gemstones dropping in less than 500 kills a week. Folks would immediately back off, lose their Fomo, and silver generation would simmer down at least as it pertains to that particular little morsel.

boreal bobcat
#

I would like to see average and median that excludes any accounts under 2.5m a month

brazen salmon
#

We'd take a cool... :checks notes: 1 billion right off the top!

finite trench
#

I genuinely would be interested in the people who are suggesting that the median is unrepresentative or not useful explaining specifically what they think is corrupting that data and what their mental model of the data is. I asked leafiara to explain this I think last night but she did not do so. it's definitely possible that some of these figures are bad (I remember well the day we learned that staff cannot track silver on characters that don't log in) but I am interested in specifically what people think is bad about them.

strong lake
#

It's okay to come out and admit the player base was underestimated when the assertion was made that it isn't expected to find 3 Gemstones every month. We are going to find our sparkly come hell or high water. The feedback pertaining to Gemstone drop rates has been overwhelmingly negative, and is apparently, unhealthy for the game. At what point is it proper to ask what we are even doing here?

hazy osprey
#

I think it's the very, very vocal minority who grinds for 3 gemstones per month and hates it.

old cedar
#

They could just make it 1/month and end that incentive to grind, too... 🤷‍♂️

frozen tusk
#

The gemstone farming adding to silver generation was acknowledged back at Simucon during the gemstones panel when Onslaughts were teased.

One of those things where telling us we can potentially earn 3 backfired because a lot of folks grind for 3.

Had it just been released into the wilds and it stated that you'll probably find 1 per month with regular hunting and not stated a cap it would have been better in hindsight, at least in my brain.

Gemstones need a tweak but if they just become easier to find you're still kind of stuck with the current cycle of

I found my gemstones.
I hit loot cap.
I guess I'll just kill mobs for more exp and 1% loot.

I suppose we're at the point of most MMOs where there's no endgame content other than the stuff you make up for your character to do from a rolepaly perspective. A large part of endgame content is gear progression but that's non existent in gemstone since you can't really work towards any in game content to improve your gear outside of earning silver currency for player services. If you're trying to chart a course for gear progression that's more in line with balancing your checkbook to see how much you can spend at the next Duskruin.

I think a root cause of the general "bad feels" is that many of us simply don't have a progression goal at this point.

Done with regular experience.
Tons of ascension and no elite or legendary stuff to works towards after years.
Have acquired all the paid gear we can stomach to spend cash on.
No more player services to attain or the upkeep of the ones we dont have is a pain we'd rather not deal with.
Roleplay can be satisfying but there's not really goals in my opinion.

Just way to many capped characters with zero meaningful progression goals to pursue.

finite trench
#

yes, my proposed solution was always to remove the gemstone drops they don't actually want players to grind for. cut the gemstone cap so people can log off

hazy osprey
#

I will never accept the "LOOK WHAT YOU'RE MAKING ME DO TO MYSELF! I HATE THIS BUT I'M GOING TO DO IT ANYWAY!" argument when it comes to video games.

slate bluff
#

How about after lootcap is reached you get an extra +50% experience absorb?

brazen salmon
# finite trench I genuinely would be interested in the people who are suggesting that the median...

I think the hesitation around the median being “representative” mostly comes down to uncertainty about how the data is being generated, not a claim that the data is inherently wrong.

For example, I am curious how the 1B figure was actually arrived at. Is that number based on tracking the source of locksmith pool boxes directly, or is it derived more indirectly, like “Gemstones launched and we saw totals jump from 8–9B to 10B, therefore gemstones upped it to 1B”?

Those two approaches produce very different confidence levels.

I also think there is some lingering distrust because we know there are blind spots in tracking, such as characters that do not log in, silver stored in unconventional ways, or systems that were not originally designed for this level of economic analysis. That does not invalidate the data, but it does make people want to understand what is included, what is excluded, and how large those gaps might be.

brazen salmon
slate bluff
#

Once you reach lootcap, you cannot log in until next month???

boreal bobcat
#

For example I have at least one account that's never earned a silver as long as I've had it! Thankfully we were informed that character has to at least loot something to be counted in the count. But if I take them outside the house and loot one thing, that's a skew on the numbers. Granted an extremely minute one since it's 1 out of how ever many accounts.

fading flare
#

The silver reduction plan was probably enough, without the lower loot cap.

old cedar
#

If we were only doing one, I'd prefer it the other way around

rough vault
#

Instead of the Ascension vector, the alternative pathway to restart as a multi-class character able to learn a few spells from another circle would have kept some things fresher. Otherwise there really should be an incentive to retire and keep the family status somehow.

frozen tusk
#

With how they've stated things, they'll evaluate next month with a fresh start for everyone and maybe make an adjustment in March or April.

If there were a huge drop in silver gen from the approximate 9B-10B per month in Dec there might be a raising of loot cap max.

fading flare
old cedar
brazen salmon
old cedar
#

I honestly think it's the differential that's the largest problem. If everyone had 1b silvers....it's not really an issue if it's 1b or 1m, everyone has it and can (or can't) afford various choices. But when a small collection has 4-10b and the majority of others in the millions....

#

at least from a game balance perspective.

fading flare
#

Even 20 million seems like it would be better, given the current silver reduction. But I suppose that’s what next month and so on is going to test.

The major complaint is that people who are playing a lot still want to be able to gain things, while there’s a lot less complaining about the total silver reduction.

It’s psychology. Even with the reduction, you can still try hard to get things. Whereas with a cap, it’s much more frustrating.

sleek meadow
#

instead of an expensive and slightly annoying mechanic for traveling between major towns they should set up a instant portal system that is 1k silver per pop and you'd drain way more silver because people would just use it all the time. Better to have everyone using a conveience and having higher QoL at a minor cost and sinking silver than a few people now and then dumping more but having less QoL and less silver sink. since it appears this is not going to be a platimum perk might as well make it a walmart model of transport...do it!

boreal bobcat
#

They have that for 100k a pop! 1k is way too low.

fading flare
#

Even if loot cap returned to soft cap at 15 and 1% hard cap at 35, if it took ages to get there, it would feel better

old cedar
#

#PlatPortalsForPrime

fading flare
minor falcon
#

yeah I don't quite understand why it's a problem that people play the game in certain ways. If people are grinding for hours they should still be rewarded for it. There really shouldn't be a punishment for playing the game. They should of just reduced the faucet all around instead and not have put in any soft or hard caps on loot.

But also give more things to spend silvers on. The lumnis donation is a major great step in that direction. But penalties just seem like the easy way out.

old cedar
#

Outliers create balance issue.

frozen tusk
old cedar
#

You'll never have one without the other.

Clarifying: You'll never have only the single account outlier, because if it's possible, the farms will exist.

sleek meadow
frozen tusk
#

Sure, but its such a more glaring issue in this game due to the distribution methods of all the highly sought after mechanical gear bells and whistles.

Most games I've played you can just farm randomly (random drops based on content difficulty), farm specifically (rare mobs that spawn at set times), or farm currency that gets retired after awhile so you can farm new currency that will also get retired.

A video game should simply not price out the majority of its playerbase.

Really if we just get rid of claim boxes with paid currency we could probably get rid of loot cap. No claim boxes. No loot cap.

There's no point in pursuing balance or making things fair because there's always a new level of crazy.

Playing more accounts than I have fingers.
Buying silvers for cash.
Playing more hours a week than I work as a salaried manager.

tender scarab
# jolly palm I do think we need to wait for a normal month for everyone to assess how long an...

I have three characters who are apparently on the verge of 15m (even though my personal tracking has some flaw making it not align) and spent yesterday rotating between them. I periodically do a manual skinning and check skin value to gauge how close they are.

My general impression is that it scales back to somewhere in the realm of 10% toward the end, as I have one character still capping out at 1000 silver valravn plumes and another—the ranger, no less—capping out at 100 silver plumes. I don’t anticipate that anybody who was getting anywhere near 35m before will have trouble hitting 15m now. (If you actually skin everything, it would be incredibly easy due to the sheer consistency of every skinnable kill contributing, but I won’t do that anymore since every silver of loot cap that goes to a skin isn’t going to a potential purify-worthy gem or enhancive.)

brazen salmon
frozen tusk
#

Claim boxes only exist if staff makes an effort to limit players ability to purchase them. You can't give away paid currency with an unlimited faucet available to purchase it.

You might only play 1 account, but the player with 10 accounts and no loot cap has a lot of resources to purchase all the claim boxes they want.

Wyrom already mentioned a few times claim boxes were in danger of going away due to the number of players purchasing (too many) and the amount of claim boxes being consolidated towards a few players (way too many).

rough vault
#

A more basic question: What are people needing millions and millions of silvers for that compels this zeal/compulsion to attain loot cap in the first place? Auctions are intermittent at best. WPS and services and gemstones... maybe for a while, but diminishing returns... Buying someone else's hand me down project at a bargain? To what point when you already have something super? I just don't think there is a real need for silvers at the 100s of millions on up. If the Simustore just sold silvers for cash at a fixed rate, I doubt we'd need to worry about loot caps.

slate bluff
fading flare
# frozen tusk Claim boxes only exist if staff makes an effort to limit players ability to purc...

This doesn’t make too much sense to me. People who didn’t want to use their claim boxes were able to sell them for a small profit, at least the orb if not 500k or 1 million silvers. Overall, I think it was good for the game market and it helped to drain a ton of silvers.

Sure, every box sold means some bloodscrip that is not being purchased from the simu store, but in terms of the total amount, seems like a drop in the bucket

brazen salmon
tender scarab
# finite trench I genuinely would be interested in the people who are suggesting that the median...

I didn’t say it wasn’t useful. Pretty sure I just said it was interesting. The median was around 2.3m and the average was around 4.8m IIRC (on my phone so can’t look it up right now), which means the 47.6-95% are making on average three times as much as the 0-47.5% to bring the average up that much.

Either that or my brain is fried. But assuming my conclusion is right, then the average of the 47.6-95% hovering around 7m means that likely a good chunk of the upper end of that will make it to at least the 10m soft cap. That’s what I found interesting.

frozen tusk
slate bluff
#

What was Wyrom's reason for CLAIM boxes, I assume it was overall health of the game or maybe he truly thought it was a good marketing scheme for the "first taste" for event currency

finite trench
minor falcon
#

I thought it was to mostly drain silvers from the game while also allowing someone to try an event

frozen tusk
#

He strongly believes in offering something, even if its small, to players that doesn't require further cash.

slate bluff
#

There was a few events where I really went all in on Lumnis and DR event boxes. At the time the tradeoff was really good and I had tons and tons of farmed silvers to spare. Recently, that route hasn't been very attractive. Did anyone buy up tons of DR/EG claim boxes last year?

tender scarab
frozen tusk
#

If you don't sell silvers for cash its a worthless currency that you should always turn in for claim boxes or paid currency.

chilly berry
boreal bobcat
#

My personal assistant seems to think both of you could be right.

image.png
slate bluff
finite trench
#

I mean, if you can buy paid currency from other players with silvers, it is definitionally not understood as a worthless currency. To say nothing of buying in game items, player services, etc

fading flare
chilly berry
brazen salmon
#

Ok more people answered that better than the snarky (at simu) reply I had typed out.

But silvers are not a worthless currency, because they remain the base currency for virtually all transactions in the game. Even when players convert value into alternative currencies, silvers still anchor pricing, trade, and market behavior. They are the common denominator that everything ultimately maps back to.

slate bluff
#

Players definitely trade silver for currency but if those players do not dabble in the blackmarket they are at the will of the sellers and usually pay a tax on their conversion at less favorable rates

boreal bobcat
#

I wish when people say "silvers are worthless" or "you can't buy anything for silvers" they include that they are specifically talking about themselves and not speaking for the entire population.
Like get over yourself.

brazen salmon
#

Sir, this entire thread is people talking about how these changes affect them personally and not the entire population.

slate bluff
#

Yeah, most of the casual joes apparently didnt get affected at all so its just us turkeys gobbling here

finite trench
#

I agree, I always think when people say "silvers are worthless" it it is really reflective of them having way too much stuff ||or indexing specifically to the USD rate, but I'm not saying ruse is doing that this time||. if you handed me 100m silver right now I could easily spend it all on player services. I am not sure I WOULD but I certainly have plenty still to buy.

brazen salmon
slate bluff
#

I dont know, I just use pirate slang like Booty and Blackmarket lol

frozen tusk
#

I mean ultimately all of this stuff is worthless from the viewpoint the game can get shut down. I can quit. I get that you can acquire stuff with silvers but its a currency you can literally go out and kill a kobold for to get some coins.

But ultimately my view point is framed by there being no simutronics offering where I can plan and map out a path of earning silvers in game to purchase many fluff and mechanical offerings.

finite trench
#

as far as I know you are allowed to mention that some people do RMT -- it's definitely news to me if you can't lol. you aren't allowed to do them here or link to a place where you can do them or talk about the specific RMT prices for things. this got hashed out a little when I was envoy because the written rule is not very explicit.

boreal bobcat
#

Isn't that literally what CLAIM is? A simutronics offering to allow you to plan and map out a path to turning your silvers into pay currency for mechanical or fluff items!

fading flare
#

Most games do keep a strict barrier between game wealth and pay event items. It’s also why a lot of those games are not well-balanced.

Usually, the things that you have to pay money for are loads of extra mana potions, gear mods, and stuff like that. Things that can enable your character to break the paradigm.

Gemstone’s system is a lot better

brazen salmon
#

Yeahhhhh multiple comments have been pulled in this thread just mentioning that RMT happens.

finite trench
#

actually I would say exactly the opposite -- most games intentionally build in consistent pathways for f2p players to get paid currency and event rewards, because for most games it's important to keep those players around and believing that it is possible is part of that. usually those pathways are pretty bad though. I think CLAIM basically serves that purpose for gemstone, which is why I don't think they should ever kill it completely.

slate bluff
#

I do enjoy playing some mobile PvP games where its like F2P skilled player vs. lazy fat rich P2W guy

primal creek
#

Time → Loot → Silvers → BS. Its not RMT. Its a really inefficient second job.

finite trench
#

yes, in the past I have run numbers on some of these systems and been like "oh okay it's a job that pays fifteen cents an hour." that's why we (the monetization team) hope you will eventually go from there to just spending money lol

slate bluff
chilly berry
#

Okay, non-sequitor to the universally lauded experience changes:

Seriously... running out of Lumnis feels even worse now than it did under the old system 😆

It is wildly driving up my desire to make another alt ||that I'll take to level 20 and then probably never play again||

finite trench
#

in fairness you've created kind of a presumption of bad post-ularity over time

vital badge
chilly berry
# slate bluff I do enjoy playing some mobile PvP games where its like F2P skilled player vs. l...

This is also every EA game these days. Its the reason I stopped playing most online console games in general. You either pay to win, or have the time to play 20 hours a week or more (20 hours of console gaming is WAY different from 20 hours of gemstone. In gemstone you pay attention for 3-5 minutes while hunting, then rest for 20 minutes and do other stuff. I can punctuate my work day with gemstone breaks. Console gaming... oof. That feels so much more involved than Gemstone these days)

frozen tusk
#

There are games with some expensive items, but usually its maybe $100.

Then there's Gemstone with its $1000-$3000+.

Gemstones has some frustrating RNG but as far as offering some paid event level mechanical upgrades for silver (and not what I view as crazy amounts of silver) it is a success.

If we had elite and legendary ascension as teased in the original doc we'd have something else outside of paid events too.

chilly berry
# frozen tusk There are games with some expensive items, but usually its maybe $100. Then the...

One of the main reasons I haven't started on transcend destiny (in the sense that I'm not maximizing my exp now and just kind of putzing along) is because... what happens after that? I know it will take a while, but I didn't really want to get characters to cap until I came back after a long break and they made ascension zones. And transcend destiny. Now there was something after! Worth pursuing!

Also, a person can, I'm told by my wife in this weird moment where she was mad at me and I still don't understand why, spend $1000s on an online sports game by EA to open packs and still not get that Team of the Year Connor McDavid they were hoping for!

slate bluff
#

After 10/10 transdestiny you get a super awesome title ..... right? Right?? Thank god GS never used loot boxes like mentioned with EA and Fifa.

sleek meadow
chilly berry
# slate bluff After 10/10 transdestiny you get a super awesome title ..... right? Right?? Than...

Yeah, if we ever do the loot box thing here, I'm out.

(For the record: I'm talking absolutely about the loot box thing where we allow halflings to carry their boxes back from the field. Not the lootbox thing that's illegal in Belgium and I think much of the EU now... Totally about halflings. Definitely don't make their lives easier or so help me... I'm Out!)

(Doubly for the record, that second for the record statement was sarcasm)

slate bluff
#

Aww my 1000 simucoin box gave me a 40 charge small statue and not SSR fully unlocked sigil staff

finite trench
#

there are already loot boxes in the game, that's what the hunt minigames are

chilly berry
#

No. loot boxes, as in gambling disguised as "buy our random crate to win!" Was a big deal 5 years ago when Belgium made it illegal. But the thing was it was impossible to play the game or be competitive without it. But really the randomness wasn't random at all. It was just a slot machine and most of the time you lose.

I disagree completely that these are the same thing. Sure there's a jackpot chance to win something but the value proposition is pretty clear: You will always get X amount of currency per entry as a floor. And its not unreasonable, there's not variability, and no crooked "casino always wins" tactics.

Getting a mandrake whistle or fox pet or whatever offers no mechanical advantage in the game.

Edit: Getting off topic here. I'll leave this tangent now.

finite trench
#

yes, that's how loot boxes are designed. a jackpot prize, and a guaranteed small paid prize as a floor. I designed them in past jobs exactly like that. gemstone hunts are exactly like loot boxes, except that usually modern loot boxes have friendlier pity mechanics.

unique oyster
#

The EG dig was the closest thing we had to loot boxes. I wouldn't be surprised if that was one of the reasons it was retired.

lucid latch
#

Couldn't have had anything to do with the imagery of grave digging with friends.

chilly berry
sleek meadow
frozen tusk
#

Getting back to my understanding of what all of this economic balance is supposed to achieve.

Long-term goals for players that aren't tied to paid events. Exp is a long term goal and lumnis donate and the new fashlonae offering in the simucoin store hit the right balance here in my opinion. The lumnis donate is only 250k silvers which is incredibly cheap based on what the player economy charged for RPA orbs prior to its introduction. My only issue with its release was nothing at all being given freely to paid subscribers. Well that was corrected with the mind capacity increase. Fasholnae is incredibly cheap for what it is offering compared to what the player economy had deemed the price of additional experience gain was.

Gemstones does offer a form of mechanical goals not tied to paid events but the RNG is an issue. Luckily you can just buy a good Gemstone from another player and the cost really isn't that high for what some of these gemstones do.

Hopefully staff has some other ideas for silvers that will provide new goals to work towards for players. My interest is always going to be towards the mechanical side and anything that would allow me to improve upon my warpath such as weapon skills, CMans, new spells, etc could keep me interested for months or years.

I can definitely say that at this time, silvers no longer provides me any meaningful pathway in progressing my character and the only desirable pathway requires me to spend thousands of dollars at paid events such as Duskruin.

old cedar
warm agate
strong lake
#

The P2W model in GS doesn't really correlate to other games very well. In most other games P2W just speeds things up, or comes in the form of shaders, emblems, emotes... etc. Fluff.

There are rarely mechanical advantages (though there are certainly examples) that you can purchase in these games that can't also be earned by :checks notes: playing the game.

Most services locked behind HESS, for example, cannot be obtained any other way. There is no amount of 'playing the game' that will earn those items/services.

I suppose you could buy big chunks of event currency with large chunks of silver off of other players... oh wait.

chilly berry
rigid sparrow
dusky kernel
#

being petulant towards Vanah doesn't add anything

rigid sparrow
ashen wharf
#

Pssst....where you goin"? hmmm... where at, you can tell me, I won't tell a soul...

minor falcon
slate bluff
dusky kernel
#

speedrun is a form of winning

brazen salmon
#

Wait, maybe that's how you frame it! If we're loot capping faster we don't need to spend any more money on HESS stuff.

fast cipher
strong lake
#

Get ownd tryhards

brazen salmon
# fast cipher You don't know my life!

LOLOL I mean, if there's no real incentive to continue improving gear because ...

A) There's really no increased difficulty content requiring it
B) You're basically nerfing yourself if you lootcap early in the month

Why spend?

finite trench
#

that's basically been the argument about HESS for the last decade, but most of the people who used to make it are now banned from the discord

safe epoch
fast cipher
brazen salmon
split hamlet
#

Spicy in here today.

south trail
wispy forum
# brazen salmon LOLOL I mean, if there's no real incentive to continue improving gear because .....

killing stuff faster, better, stronger, can be intrinsically fun; screen scroll; number go up makes me happy, maybe i have issues though

extrinsically, faster killing means faster xp means faster progression means faster killing repeat

faster killing for silvers really only mattered for the second hand market for progression for a while now, outside of the occasional sliver auction and now gemstones i guess

how are you nerfing yourself with an early loot cap?

chilly berry
brazen salmon
# wispy forum killing stuff faster, better, stronger, can be intrinsically fun; screen scroll;...

There's diminishing returns here that you're not accounting for. Numbers going up feels good, I get that, but there's a point where those gains stop being meaningfully noticeable. TTK can only drop so far before additional gains barely changes the experience.

If you loot-cap in a week and then spend the next three weeks earning marginal gains of 1% or less, you're effectively nerfing your own progression. The system stops rewarding engagement and instead encourages burnout.

brazen salmon
rigid sparrow
brazen salmon
#

You will never catch me in Nelemar ever again after Azimar voided the mob with my 10x lirion bow on it.

And deffo not with all my lightning-based flares.

And at this point, when I die, it's purely a skill issue (in ME or HW... SG is still a jerk)

south trail
crimson pond
#

I don't have any of those problems. ...Okay maybe one.

chilly berry
#

I really look forward to finding out just how much they slowed the loot faucet next month.

Also. Yeah. If you got lightning flaring all the things then stay away from SG.

mellow gyro
#

Content has an end. Goals are already at that 0.01 range. I just added some resistance via an ASC point for instance. It boils down to intent of play. Gemstone IV has had a lot of great content adds so loot cap was lowered on the floor. XP is increased. What are we still concerned about, gem droppage rates?

wispy forum
#

Like why is it better progressionwise to earn lootcap over the whole month, than in one week with 1% for the next three? Isnt the silver/loot amount the same regardless? Actually lower if you spread it out?

chilly berry
#

Quick question. Has anyone hit loot cap this month starting clean from after the loot system changeover happened?

brazen salmon
blazing violet
#

That seems like a perspective thing instead of an actual self-nerf.

rapid reef
#

maybe loot should be weekly instead of monthly

strong lake
rigid sparrow
#

have it reset daily. that encourages play every day

icy ether
#

doesn't that turn the argument to "why do I play the other 5-6 days this week"?

strong lake
#

Maybe. I'd argue it would, I dunno, feel better knowing the game will be fun again in 5 days on a weekly basis rather than be fun again in 3 weeks on a monthly basis.

icy ether
#

I'm not qualified to make the argument, mind you...I have the tools to do it, just not the time/inclination

strong lake
#

That's the energy I should be emulating

royal epoch
#

I think I've said this before, but one of the things about the experience changes that excites me is collecting more players at post-cap, where I think GS is strong and fairly modern in some ways.

#

It lets our team focus on providing content that helps the majority of players.

jolly palm
royal epoch
#

This is where you find out that I'm basically a lemming.

dusky kernel
dusky kernel
finite trench
split hamlet
#

I agree with getting everyone to cap, and beyond. I think there might even be a quote of me saying so somewhere! 2 points if you can find it.

south trail
chilly berry
mossy forge
wispy forum
# brazen salmon Because progression is about momentum, not just totals. Front-loading gains and ...

i guess i always think of progression as number go up and the number go up the same amount or slightly more in the early cap 1% rest of the month model - that said i fully agree it's not enjoyable - definitely got used to the loot pace we've had for years now as a non loot cap grinder; hunt to fry then back to town, was always finding boxes and gems every hunt - definitely disheartening to know you just aren't gonna find anything for three weeks if that ends up being the case

tribal relic
#

2 slabs of gold out at sea and rovvi is completely not able to loot anything else with 57 items in his cloak. Im really getting annoyed that this ends my gaming experience with any ship.

warm agate
#

I’m fine hunting for just experience , once hitting the loot cap. I’m not fine with my non loot capped account also finding squat and getting less for gems. I know I’m the odd one out but I generally don’t hunt my two accounts together at the same time , I spell them and heal them up etc.

chilly tulip
# 
You search the crimson angargeist.
It didn't carry any silver.
It had a spindle of icicle jade on it!
Interesting, it carried some delicate aquamarine socks on it.
It had nothing else of value.
The last traces of a roiling crimson angargeist seep into the ground and vanish.```I'm rich!
sturdy ridge
dusky crest
#

I’ve been following this thread since its inception and hesitated posting until now because I feel like I’m probably a lone voice in the wilderness 😆

I have no idea why my experience would be different to anyone else’s but, since the changes, I have seen a definite uptick in loot on Rohese. I am never likely to reach loot cap as I don’t have time to hunt for long periods of time and I am predominantly a role player not a grinder but I am happy with the current state of affairs when it comes to silvers accruing in the bank. I feel the loot cap is set at a very reasonable level now too and will hopefully ease some of the pressures on wealth generation that Wyrom alluded to.

Yes, I have noticed a marked shift in encumbrance but not enough to hinder my hunts or completion of a bounty in anyway, apart from 1 exceptional box that weighed around 250lbs and wouldn’t fit in any of my containers. I simply returned to town to deal with it and resumed the hunt within minutes. I actually found that to be quite exciting as I couldn’t wait to see what was in it and it didn’t disappoint!

I am wondering if loot pressure is playing a part because, anecdotally, I’m noticing fewer PCs zooming around (thank you for leaving boxes on the ground btw).

I am grateful that resources were revisited, that was a definite pain point, but normal services have been resumed and I have even managed to sell them with no difficulty! I really like the upgrade to experience. I doubt I will ever have enough time to make use of the Lumnis Donations or Fash’lo’nae’s whatnot but I appreciate that they exist.

I do think there are a couple of issues that need to be addressed e.g. disks and OSA storage capacity. But, on the whole, I like where we are at - apart from my usual plea of more RP and storylines please.

sleek meadow
#

Soloed in Sanctum of scale yesterday to get my swatches and I’m about 90 seconds (with a disk out) had to decide to dump the hunt and run back to town or dump the boxes. Dumped probably 7 boxes before I was done and couldn’t take more than 2 out. A bit annoying. Can we please adjust the weight nothing about being constantly encumbered improves my experience of game play.

minor falcon
#

for me, I'm generally pleased with the changes for the most part. I just have a hard time understanding the whole loot cap situation (I don't hit loot cap myself though). I'm not really seeing the value of jumping on board the SK haste club these days. Not that I could even afford it but it was definitely something I've always had as a goal (maybe not so much now).

I do think the pool needs a slight reduction in the fee though so that we can get some more boxes in there. The encumbrance issues are definitely a pain point. But I don't think we should go back to having thousands of small boxes drop again. That was just to burdensome to maintain. I like the less boxes more value, just not the encumbrance it brings. Ultimately I went from using the pool myself to picking my own boxes which is probably a good thing that I'm using my own skills again.

bright pasture
#

it's like everyone is a halfling now!

sleek meadow
bright pasture
#

the view is great up here

tribal relic
#

Give me magic beans to grow into a giant man for 10 minutes while I take on a ship for loot, then a honey I shrunk the kids machine to switch back into my halfling self

That would solve everything

lofty dragon
#

I foresee WR containers becoming WAY more popular than they were before the change....

frank peak
#

I’m still waiting for this more interesting loot. So far it’s coins, an Ingot, some gems, and enruned chalices or ripped pants in every single box. Just change flavor of pants sometimes. So interesting even the pawnshop doesn’t want em. Locksmiths can’t afford to replace broken picks. 28k value from 5 boxes average. Yuck. Do I really have to do this for YEARS till things get interesting?

bright pasture
#

self-repairing pick could be an interesting long-term goal. just don't let an acid trap eat it if it's not the acid-immune kind

sleek meadow
jolly palm
#

Yeah... someone was selling a WR belt worn the other day with a really low MB. Can't remember who it was. I was shocked no one bid on it.

bright pasture
#

those 1000lb containers are even nicer now

alpine walrus
brazen salmon
bright pasture
fast cipher
brazen salmon
fast cipher
#

haha if you can't keep 1 charged how are you going to charge multiples! Guess you gotta wait until loot cap and then charge like dozens of them

tender condor
#

Someone teach the artificer to smush like 5 fully charged periatps together into a permanent one

alpine walrus
sleek meadow
brazen salmon
alpine walrus
#

True

But it's a good idea to get that climbing up.... Especially if you hunt SoS a lot

And yes Voln isn't for everyone

tender condor
#

or, actually, a good opportunity to use the new quest system! Put some dude in the Oasis or the Hammer outside sanctum, bring them some periapts to research or something. I dunno go milk a sidewinder for some venom, dip their prototype permiapt in the vat. boom 10k exp and perm periapt

bright pasture
#

you can keep multiple periapts charged on those occasional long cull bounties. it's some micro management but you can really make it statistically likely that you'll never have to deal with running out

sleek meadow
alpine walrus
brazen salmon
bright pasture
sleek meadow
# brazen salmon Just get 102 ranks of climbing.

yeah I'll get right on that...um...the new global need for level...whatsit hunting in SOS? which most people only go to when they have to. 😛 and not only halflings and gnomes are having enc issues...though clearly they are the waaaaay wayyy hosed by this. only Krol and Giants really seem to not give a darn (or most of them)

brazen salmon
main field
bright pasture
#

it all depends on how frequently the container weights spike. my giant may not fair all that much better, if not for the alternatives like field picking or the expensive horse unlock

alpine walrus
#

And my Halfling Rogue does great

Add the Simu 100# encumbrance potion, get em half off at DR at 375, yer monthly free99 Simu coins pays for it

Super Duper Dialed

brazen salmon
alpine walrus
bright pasture
#

do other people make task-specific enhancive sets? it would be pretty easy to make a just-climbing enhancive set

sleek meadow
chilly tulip
#

Or we could go back to not having to go unload boxes multiple times during a hunt

brazen salmon
#

Edged Weapons Bonus: 64/50
I'm good.

main field
alpine walrus
brazen salmon
#

Or... we could always just stop with the "this isn't a problem for me therefore it's not a problem" arguments.

alpine walrus
#

NEVER!!!!!!

but I was adding suggestions and possibly solutions

crimson pond
main field
brazen salmon
chilly berry
bright pasture
jolly palm
main field
brazen salmon
chilly berry
crimson pond
jolly palm
# chilly berry Can you voln in and out of SOS?

You can voln to the safe area, where you can ride the caravan down.

But just add it to the list of bad player experiences, especially with the loot/encumbrance update.

Entry/Exit mechanics for hunting areas are 👎

Especially with how many QoL improvements have been done over the years. These feel antiquated

warm agate
#

Just leave them I’ll pick them up

brazen salmon
chilly berry
# jolly palm You can voln to the safe area, where you can ride the caravan down. But just ad...

I don’t mind entering mechanics to get to a place as long as the place is pretty self-sufficient once you do get there.

But when you can’t offload loot, that’s regularly found in a place. It just doesn’t make any sense to me to go there.

(Or have FWI access… that being limiting in new hunting areas leaves a bad taste in my mouth. Like we pay extra for a system, literally based around convenience. I don’t know if they updated sailors grief to allow FWI access but it was pretty poor form I think to not include it off the bat)

crimson pond
#

You don't have to justify it! I'm always in favor of Flares > everything else

brazen salmon
#

LOL. Once I unlock TD I'll probably go back and do pick/disarm... besides, if Riend starts picking people will realize she's a rogue and not a ranger.

bright pasture
#

does everyone not agree that the game should have easy and hard things? hmm

warm agate
jolly palm
chilly berry
# bright pasture does everyone not agree that the game should have easy and hard things? hmm

I take your point. But if we take a moment to compare this to any other modern gaming experience, even in Skyrim after you spend 20 minutes, and an extra two hours on side quests, slogging it across the map you can fast travel there.

Sort of the modern standard for gaming is that yes make us go through the arduous nature of walking from one place to another one time and then let us get there quickly.

If I wanted to spend hours watching my character just walk around or sail around, I would just watch Lord of the rings

warm agate
#

I feel like with any skill check or monster a character should be able to train up skills necessary to kill or overcome eventually. Enchancives to me should be primarily to assist folks who maybe are training another skill instead of in this case climbing and the extra + x will bridge the gap. That’s just me though

bright pasture
boreal trench
slate bluff
#

No way thats real.... stop the AI GS items!

bright pasture
# chilly berry I take your point. But if we take a moment to compare this to any other modern g...

so much of the game is so easy to get to. i think people lose track some times of the fact that some of the most famous items in the history of the game were about teleportation, and much of that was lost with the realm-restriction changes.

i get that it's nice when things become easier, but i just want to point out that we also risk erasing some of the satisfaction we get when/if we solve those problems

some people want to throw silvers to get their perfect gemstone set, for instance. i want aspects of the perfect gemstone set to basically be statistically unobtainable - or i have no perspective on how amazing it was to even get close. but i understand that this is a contentious balance

boreal trench
slate bluff
#

Imagine someday Sylinar lets you exchange climbing ranks for like MoC/CMAN....

sleek meadow
chilly berry
bright pasture
#

when Dragonrealms expanded to include a lot of islands, it took a literal day to travel. i think it made finally reaching those places very satisfying.

what was not satisfying was being stranded on one of the islands in the middle of the night due to a bug in one of the boats and no staff was on duty

chilly berry
brazen salmon
#

My desire to spend hours traversing the world to get to a place died in EQ.

bright pasture
#

it was satisfying enough that i still remember it 30 years later 😄

#

back when GS actually had the population for it, the micro communities that emerged from the distance were extremely valuable. now, i don't know what we're doing, but it's somewhere in between

dusky kernel
slate bluff
#

Manually traversing the road from Wehnimer to Icemule back in the day with simply some hand written directions as a kid and having to backtrack, hide from "high level" critters was actually super fun and memorable.... now its a 1 minute Goto but back then it was an accomplishment...

brazen salmon
dusky kernel
bright pasture
#

oh why don't you use it anymore?

dusky kernel
dusky kernel
# bright pasture oh why don't you use it anymore?

anymore? I never used it once! haha. couldn't be bothered! I am so hooked to the 1440 second enhancive chargers, I gave up my armoire long ago. I didn't even recharge with silvers this go around (though mostly I forgot).

I am pretty sure I sold it. For a tidy profit. It might still be in my FWI locker. Any time I think about cleaning out a locker, I get dizzy. I don't even look at things beyond my family trunk, which is also full of mid enhancives I should have pawned when it was still 35k.

Halp

bright pasture
#

hmm i think my trading + inf set is an extra >5% wealth

warm agate
brazen salmon
#

I remember bugging Ardwen for the script to get to/from Landing and IMT because I could not.

safe epoch
warm agate
sacred brook
dusky kernel
sacred brook
#

also if lower level characters produce less loot, once i'm in soft cap (or even if i know i'm running hot that month) that's not a bad incentive to switch on one of my alts after i've run through lumnis.

Would you be able to manage expectations with a general "no lootcap /softcap /1%" ? Maybe there is an inbetween version that the powers that be would be okay with

Yeah, that's fine. I don't need to know EXACTLY how much my loot is impacted. It could be another thing that people theorize about. Just have "no, light, medium, heavy, overwhelming" or something.

dusky kernel
#

I'm smart enough to know that there are probably ways to exploit a very detailed lootcap report, but just dumb enough to not to know details (besides idk sell red hammers of kai)

sacred brook
#

also i guess what i'm saying is not to tell me how much lootcap is applied to me. Tell me how much my account has contributed toward the loot cap. "I'm at 9m this month" "I'm at 13m this month" etc. then i can easily be the one who knows whether i'm in soft or 1% without knowing how much the cap applied to me is (i don't really think that's abusable either really but if it's a concern for GMs i'd rather a tool that we get than a tool they keep away from us)

brazen salmon
bright pasture
#

as Leafiara mentioned somewhere, just skinning a random high-value skin in an out-of-the-way area and comparing with that price is a pretty good quantitative way to measure your lootcap

(in the advent of no lootcap verb being implemented)

boreal bobcat
#

All we have to do is show we can provide the number to them then they'll give us a verb. The Whirlin Method.

dusky kernel
#

"There is a theory which states that if ever anyone discovers exactly what the lootcap formula is for and why it is here, it will instantly disappear and be replaced by something even more bizarre and inexplicable. There is another theory which states that this has already happened."

slate edge
#

Can I have a bard loresing my corpse so I can RECALL TYSONG to get the details of how much total weight I am, lootcap, etc 😄

bright pasture
dusky kernel
safe epoch
# dusky kernel devil's advocate, what are people going to do with a LOOTCAP verb? You look at i...

I am a strong advocate for a LOOTCAP verb. I can, if given time, provided dozens of examples of usage for such knowledge.

First, it would allow players to pace their character's hunting so as not to race to a cap that would make hunting frustrating. I see this as a potential benefit to the overall RP of the game. You sitting on 7m on the 10th of the month? Slow down! Do some crafting... engage in RP more... be charitable and don't feel the need to power hunt all the time.

Second, it would help the playerbase report back to "the team" on how the lootcap is impacting them more accurately. I personally think most people would be pleasantly surprised that they don't come close to capping and any perceived impact of the changes is just that... a perception that isn't based in reality.

Third, it could encourage more meaningful alt play. Maybe instead of mindless resource alts, folks might be enouraged (when approaching their main's loot cap) to actually PLAY their alts.. give them a life.. give them a history... actually BE the character. This could really bring more diversity to the game.

brazen salmon
#

Fourth, it will show me how angry I should be regarding the fact that I'm at lootcap and still haven't found my 3rd gemstone and how absurd the drop rate is.

boreal bobcat
#

See!!!! That's exactly why they won't give us one.

slate edge
#

It would also allow people to find things that generate silver that doesn't effect LOOTCAP depending on how the verb's output is handled. Which could be used for personal gain (GMA?) or REPORTed to ensure that it's included properly into lootcap formula.

safe epoch
brazen salmon
fast cipher
#

You get a RPA for that now

safe epoch
# brazen salmon I commit seppuku ICly every month I don't.

Maybe when @royal epoch fulfills the promise to do group looting for gemstone drops, something can be done to tweak gemstones (either more of them or easier reshaping or actually make them more useful out of the gate)... I think the gemstone hunt is not worth the effort myself. Power hunting for thousands of kills to end up with a 1.5m duststone is just not my idea of fun.

brazen salmon
safe epoch
boreal bobcat
#

Enjoy your triple regional gemstones!

OIP.png
brazen salmon
#

I don't want all gems 3-property, I do want lower prices for unlocking/amplifying/reshaping.

But I'm also kind of just resigned to having to take that one and deal.

safe epoch
#

I may be wrong but I think they already ruled out cheaper reshapes (which I would also prefer)... I doubt they'll make them easier to find either, so I'm just trying to find some way to make single prop regionals go away

brazen salmon
boreal bobcat
#

Wyrom said the prices were not based on the old loot cap. There is no reason to lower them now, but that can be revisited.

Wyrom
·
#1461872047062908929
1/24/2026, 10:24:51 PM
Pricing adjustments will be a case-by-case once we see the impact of silvers. If we get to the end of March and our efforts didn't move the needle much, we'll probably not see much in terms of downward adjustments.
#1461872047062908929 message
#1461872047062908929 message

dusky kernel
dusky kernel
brazen salmon
crimson pond
rigid sparrow
brazen salmon
rigid sparrow
brazen salmon
#

TBF
<insert gif>
Common / Common gems are some of my fav drops for rerolling. 🙂
Favorite reroll so far:

    * Taste of Brutality (Rank 2 of 5)```
fading flare
brazen salmon
sinful coyote
brazen salmon
remote egret
brazen salmon
remote egret
remote crane
remote crane
alpine walrus
#

RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE

fading flare
#

Time to test things then. Not clear yet how much that will help box weight. But good updates.

dusky kernel
#

Don't worry we will find more things to complain about JUST YOU WAIT

image.png
tender scarab
#

Significantly more items?! I won't be able to see the effects now, but come Sunday, that should look wild...

crimson pond
#

Interesting approach on the disk fix. I would've though something like a max item count attributed to boxes (3?) would've been more sensible. Or divide the count by 3 in accordance with the change. But better than nothing! Maybe count the distinct types of items in the boxes? I.e. all gems count as one thing, all magic items one thing, etc.

tender scarab
#

So... since part of OSA was updated, but the cargo bin sizes weren't, are we to assume that they won't be and that was just supposed to be handled by more coins (on average) becoming ingots?

tribal relic
chilly tulip
#

Hopefully the ingot change helps the smallies, I’ll find out Sunday

tawny sierra
boreal bobcat
#

I failed to weigh it but here you go

In the wooden strongbox:
Magic Items [1]: a heavy quartz orb
Gems [7]: some purple mithril-bloom, a vinous gigasblood ruby, a piece of dusky blue sapphire, a 
shard of raven's wing obsidian, a piece of polished ivory, a copper-chased azurite chunk, a 
rainbowed ammolite shard
Special [2]: some silver coins, a bright gold ingot
Total items: 10

[eloot]>look in #471789012
In the gold coffer:
Containers [2]: a luxurious vermilion sack, an oak brown serge bodice
Wands [1]: an iron wand
Gems [5]: a blood red garnet, a chunk of ruddy bauxite, a sparkling ice blue dreamstone, a piece of 
green jade, a spruce green emerald
Special [2]: a bright gold ingot, some silver coins
Misc [1]: an ornate Lorminstra statuette
Total items: 11

In the mithril box:
Wands [1]: an aquamarine wand
Gems [6]: a blue-violet chunk of kornerupine, a brilliant snowblind diamond, a copper-chased azurite 
chunk, a piece of clear oligoclase, a jagged nephrite shard, a blue-green glacial core
Clothing [1]: a fire pearl inset ora crown
Special [2]: a bright gold ingot, some silver coins
Total items: 10

In the hickory box:
Wands [1]: an aquamarine wand
Magic Items [1]: a crystal amulet
Gems [5]: a smooth white-veined turquoise, a spindle of icicle jade, a rutilated twilight tourmaline,
a rutilated frostbite amethyst, a piece of coppery titanite
Clothing [1]: a beryl-inset pewter earcuff
Special [2]: a bright gold ingot, some silver coins
Misc [1]: a small gold nugget
Total items: 11

last one there was 27 lbs.

fading flare
#

Hmm…more like a lockbox without the gear

tender condor
#

inb4 someone tries to unlock a box, stuff it with other boxes, then relock it

remote crane
knotty aspen
jolly palm
# remote crane

Awesome to see the team continuing to observe feedback and tweak the new system. Thank you to the crew involved and keep up the good work.
Definitely helps build confidence within the community.

tender condor
#

inb4 we find out boxes truncate to 0 if they have 2 items or less, and everyone keeps unlocking boxes, taking it down to 2 items, relocking them and putting them back in the disks as 0 items worth
icandothisallday.gif

rain reef
#

thank you, looking forward to trying out these changes

remote crane
bright pasture
#

45 item disks for me tyvm

tender condor
remote crane
#

Already did!

frosty gate
#

Awesome changes. I like them.

chilly tulip
slate bluff
#

I expect to be finding boxes with 3 jewelries in them on Feb 1st!

devout bobcat
#

Is this the anticipated "interesting loot" update or are there more changes coming in that regard?

broken vector
#

are the epic/rare feeders a thing yet? I remember there was a test a few months ago but don't remember it going live for real

timber kraken
devout bobcat
#

Right. Auchand said he was working on interesting loot, but it could be he was fixing the issue with boxes being mostly silvers / ingots. Looking forward to box hunting tomorrow either way 🙂

remote crane
#

This is unrelated to any "interesting loot" updates, which I would also caution as more of a long term goal than one specific update.

tender condor
slate edge
# remote crane I agree. This is now the case. Locked chests now count as 1/3 of items for disk ...

Something may be off...

In the REMOVED disk:
Containers [11]: a lacquered steel trunk, a fluted cedar chest, a charred white oak box, a painted gold strongbox, a gold-trimmed steel coffer, a lacquered gold strongbox, a lacquered hickory strongbox, a waterlogged cedar chest, a copper-edged maple trunk, a blackened cherrywood box, a rune-incised hickory chest
Total items: 11

Default disk, no air lore. Unless you mean 3 locked boxes now equal 1 item. Default disk should hold 8 items total.

tender scarab
#

I personally find the boxes more exciting already (Wyrom's original word) since I like seeing a flurry of items.

Magic Items [1]: a white flask
Lockpicks [1]: a copper lockpick
Gems [6]: a vinous gigasblood ruby, a niveous snowdrop, a smooth white-veined turquoise, some dark ivory aranthium-bloom, a mottled green jasper, a large yellow diamond
Special [2]: some silver coins, a bright gold ingot
Misc [2]: a disk of petrified spruce, a petrified tiger tooth
Total items: 12```
remote crane
sacred brook
#

appreciate the changes

remote crane
#

A lot of my sample chests had ~15 items. It's quite a few gems, magic trinkets, etc. Items of value that also are not going to significantly raise the weight of the chest.

tender condor
tender scarab
#

I don't think I've understood what the term "magic trinket" or "arcane trinket" means when you or Auchand have used it. I haven't seen anything that jumps out as new and was a magic item. Is it referring to imbeddables or something?

There is a wider array of arcane trinkets and such that can drop now, and I would expect some further things coming soon.```
Or maybe they're rare. I wouldn't expect to have seen anything on the rarity level of the 1750 lenses by now.
remote crane
remote crane