[Official] Loot and Experience Changes

[haughty ocean]

I’ve seen a couple people suggest a scaling pool fee where the first X boxes a day are normal, and then the fee goes up and up the more you have.

Something similar could be done for the pickers. After X boxes received from the pool for picking, you start getting a cooldown until you can get another.

In a game where you have such a huge range in play styles, scaling seems like the best approach for most things. In most cases, “X” won’t affect the average player but the scaling will prevent whatever issues they are currently correcting for.

[old cedar]

Easier to break it than to delete it...

That aside, there may be room to look at what the pool thinks for your mind being "too full". With 3x available XP on picking/disarming, it should mabe look at having ~3x the "avialable" room in the xp pool. Or even better (though unlikely) let it saturate us if picking would give more XP than we can hold now.

[valid orbit]

Thank you for these references! The problem was not the pool itself. The pool is a great QoL service. The problem was there was too much silver being generated, and the pool made it easier to redeem. They are fixing the silver generation, no reason to kill the pool. Also, if they don't like afk pool pickers, then just fix that, I don't think it should be that hard to find them. I think the changes being made are all in this general direction. But to help the policy following pool picker, it would be good to slow down the rate at which boxes can be pulled from the pool.

[chilly tulip]

The problem is primarily eloot, tbh. Everyone picks up and sells everything now because it's super easy to do so. People used to leave lockpicks etc lying on the floor. It adds up. Then you add in the pool, which is tied into eloot, and everyone is suddenly making way more money than they were when they'd leave stuff on the floor, pay the townsmith fee, etc. Ease of access to automation blew things up big time. Then you get people going "hey I can just automate 9 accounts" and we're where we are today.

[tribal relic]

with the amount of boxes being decreased would slowing the xp the picker get really help? since there is already less boxes and people are already running into problems getting boxes from an empty pool

[primal creek]

I think the pool change hits the same demographic as the resource changes the hardest. Which is unfortunate. People who already have limited time and were using the resources or offline resources to try and earn something. As it was put "to participate in the economy" they benefited greatly from the pool because if their few hours of time is now also being more limited to trying to find a manual unlock or they are getting a good chunk of loot removed on top.

[old cedar]

maybe eloot's selling algorithm, but loot room does basically the same thing as eloot in the hunting grounds.

@tribal relic He wants to slow the other pickers because he thinks that'll get him more boxes. I'm not actually convinced that's what would happen though, honestly.

[vital badge]

It kinda sounds like a solution looking for a problem to be honest.

Right now you have scarcity for several reasons. There are less people using the pool because the total number of boxes has decreased, they don't want to pay more than half of the box's value in fees, and there are a number of people testing out the new XP modifiers on picking. Some of those won't last, and there will reach an equilibrium.

[valid orbit]

Slowing down how fast a picker can pull from the queue will absolutely help maintain a healthy queue depth which will absolutely help the fair and even distribution of work from the pool. This is queue theory, not opinion. The tweak on exp per box was also a necessary ingredient, but not alone sufficient. It's not a solution looking for a problem. I have an actual problem.

[mellow dock]

It's really not- and there have been some great links to Wyrom comments on this. Plus the fact that this was bundled in as part of a larger move to reduce silver generation. The problem has been stated over and over and over again

[old cedar]

The problem is there are not enough boxes in the queue for the number of pickers.

As it is, you're not going to significanly increase the queue depth because there's nowhere near enough boxes to make a difference. A wait time of 2 minutes doesn't help if there's not a box to pull for 5 minutes.

You seem to think a single person can pull more boxes than any other single person does. There's not really a siginficant difference in how fast a box can be pulled between individuals, especially right now. Boxes entering the queue are instanlty picked because there's not enough of them, not because people don't have to wait long enough to get a box to pick.

[valid orbit]

All good points, and certainly an equilibrium will be reached that isn't fully realized today during the transition. However, the math is still the math. If you decrease rate coming in, but don't decrease max rate going out, the operation of the pool will change significantly. It's not really opinion, it's just the way it will be.

[chilly tulip]

I think a bunch of rogues who don't have any combat skills trained who subsisted entirely off the pool are going to have to start hunting at some point. With 1/3 as many boxes I don't see how the existing pool picking community can remain fully employed going forward

[alpine walrus]

Time for the Bot Pickers to go hunt

[warm agate]

I am only blowing up boxes because I don't want to get fined.🤣

[still sigil]

Yeah, they've worked hard to make the pool fit the definition of "Mostly harmless." If you depend on the pool as your primary experience gainer, well, it is time to find a fixskill

[primal creek]

There was a 3-4 hour period yesterday where my 1 coin boxes were not getting insta opened. With the general frustration people expressed, the fact we have many people now in the new loot cap I think it will be possibly post DR before some of the main pool workers will actually know the impact unfortunately.

[mellow dock]

I imagine we still have lots of people who are in such sticker shock and who are so disgruntled that they're avoiding the pool in a way that many of them likely won't once they've adjusted

[tribal relic]

I have a rogue I raised from 60 to 100 and he capped on the pool alone, and maybe that shouldnt have been the case but it was. I was never an afk rogue picking all day long. I have an old spreadsheet of what he made in one week picking, I could share but im not sure that is appropriate for this channel although it has to do with loot and what he grossed. I get there are a fair number of rogues out there who afk pick all day long but NOT all of us were

[fierce lynx]

Pretty much. I have a locksmith who has only worked the pool past couple of years. Prior to this change I also put all of my hunted boxes into the pool for the convenience. At the current fee it has become worth the time and hassle to swap between characters and pick my own boxes directly. Now my locksmith has work and I don't lose 30% of my loot to the overpriced system. Not a bot but some of the folks sitting there definitely were unresponsive to the world... including dying from a fumbled box or similar.

[valid orbit]

Please don't make this devolve into defining the right way to play the game. Not everyone has to be hunters. Also, I think the nuance of my point is being missed by many who are giving critique. The pool is peaky in it's nature without a change to rate of service due to the low queue depth. I only have certain times I can play, so evening out the box distribution is important to me because I can't sit there all day and play the averages.

[old cedar]

Sure, I can make you wait 5 minutes, 10 minutes, whatever between boxes, that'll increase the queue depth. That doesn't really help anyone though.

[warm agate]

And there is nothing wrong with that, it was allowable and you aren't alone. If it had been such a huge deal, it would have changed long ago.

[rough vault]

Was the gem value to get deed recalibrated too?

[jolly palm]

has anyone made a list of all the things that are too expensive or difficult to upkeep yet based on the gem changes?
If so, can we add animal totems to that. Super expensive paper weight now.

[fierce lynx]

Trying to understand... So you want to sit there to get one box every 10 minutes (which there probably aren't enough boxes to support that rate either at present)? That doesn't sound like much of an improvement over being told to come back later.

[vital badge]

I think the current idea is to have a progressive cooldown for number of boxes picked in x amount of time.

[tribal relic]

if there was enough boxes to support this yes, but there arent anymore in the pool

[valid orbit]

I want the number of boxes picked per X (15 minutes) amount of time to be more predictable.

[warm agate]

The idea of making changes to any system resources/locksmith pool because it was "never the intent" years later is just silly to me, the fact was if it wasn't the intent and was't allowable all these years it should have been change from the get. It's not really a viable argument to me

[jolly palm]

Yeah, the pool is going to be virtually dead. I would be shocked if it can support any locksmiths for true leveling anymore.

Not only are there way less boxes being generated from the changes to those who aren't capped. But folks who never got into soft cap or close to hard cap will be reaching the 1% now.

Combine that with the fees that were added, and many folks who would drop the 10-20 boxes they did find in a day are going to shift and will pick them on their own.

I used to drop about 400+ boxes a day into the pool. With the changes, the couple doze i'm finding.... I'm picking them myself. Now it's 0. The pool is reserved for -1600+ locks that I'm too lazy to switch and put enhancives on for 😆

They increased the exp from boxes by 3x.... but i would be absolutely shocked if the number of boxes put into the pool stayed at 1/3 of what it was before. I bet it's less than 1/10th when it's all said and done. Especially once folks eventually get access to their own locksmiths again

[fierce lynx]

You can't have 100 boxes going out (pick your amount of time) if there are only 20 boxes going in during the same time period.

I've been provided I think a total of 5 boxes to open since the changes rolled out. Progress those however you like... there are not enough people using the system presently to support the number of pickers.

[rough vault]

I think the value of junk treasure like figures and statues that have no spell in them was not affected by the nerf.

[sleek meadow]

Make it so going forward all wizard self cast disks are 2x the old base size. And all wizard and crystal other cast disks are 1.5x the base size. That both gives wizard who tend to be smaller a bonus and makes it so a reasonable couple new boxes can fit in disks for everyone else

[open root]

400 a day?!

[mellow dock]

I think once people remember that you are going to make more silvers- even with the fee- by opening boxes rather than leaving them on the ground, we will see the pool used more. Though it won't be what it was before

[valid orbit]

I don't want more going out than what comes in because that would be ridiculous. I just want the amount going out to be more equally accessible. without being heavily dependent on time of day. and without heavily weighing in favor of bot pickers. Bot pickers are not dependent on time of day, because they are literally there at all times of day.

[jolly palm]

I think the hurdles I presented will be the bigger challenge. It's not the fee. It's the # of boxes produced.

Way more people will get into soft cap and "hard cap" now. (I'm going to call the 1% cap space "hard cap" because at that level, you're producing a super negligible amount of boxes).

With so fewer boxes needing to be picked, some people will start doing it themselves. The only reason I used the pool was because the sheer volume. I didn't want to be picking at a table all day when that time was more valuable hunting. That time is no longer valuable hunting.

[sleek meadow]

There are a number of locksmith pool issues but I think making it silly and obnoxious to just pay even is an added unnecessary element. I suggest the following 3 things. 1). 60 seconds between when a rogue turns in one box and they can yank another out. 2) eliminate tips and the need to confirm…set it and that’s it. 3) have the amount charged deducted from the box when it’s claimed and that amount is split at some % with the picker (technically it’s taken and solit when picked). Done. Simplified, prices still higher. Pacing of boxes in the queue evened out some.

[frosty gate]

I was gonna start picking my own boxes again, but then I realized I'm much too lazy to do that again.

[old cedar]

There probably are bot pickers, but we should not be building systems around botting, we should be addressing botting. If you think there is a bot picker, then policy report that character and let the GMs deal with it.

[split hamlet]

Easy scapegoat. Not the real cause of the problem. There are simply less boxes.

I hope something more interesting is talked about the rest of the day.

[valid orbit]

For the optimizer, or mass producer, this makes sense. You can move to picking your own boxes or finding a friend that can sit at a table for you all day. This would take 400x from the pool every day and that's fine. I have to think there are people out there who are like me a have a single prime character. Maybe they aren't a locksmith and maybe they still would benefit from using the pool in a very healthy way.. and then there are people who are much too lazy to pick their own :). Whatever it is, I do understand that there will be many fewer boxes in the pool and that's fine, but there is still room for a pool because the concept makes sense. If the only viable way to pick the pool is to run for 10 hours + per day so you can reliably pull that average box/minute rate, then it will only benefit bots. I want to be able to more reliably pull at the average rate during any 15 minute timeslot I happen to pop in.

[tribal relic]

heres an idea, create the interesting topic

[split hamlet]

Boxes are too heavy.

There are too many plain silvers in a box.

Everything that uses gems is still broken.

[primal creek]

You don't even really need a friend anymore. you can pick your own while absorbing.

[alpine walrus]

Easy to fix the picking slow down

Eliminate the Bots

Go hunt if not enough boxes to pic

Problem solved

Next topic

[sleek meadow]

How about what single actually implementable thing could be done or implemented by the GM/Devs would actually significantly increase the longevity of GS. Not a list of what can’t be done or why it can’t. What’s the list of things actually likely to keep it going the longest? That would be an interesting topic . I’ll
Come back in 4 minutes and offer mine

[tribal relic]

well i mean the topic of this channel is loot and exp changes regarding the changes just pushed out. this chat is essentially dead in the water anyway bec many have already stated their points of views and what theyd like to see changed. Cant get more interesting then that for this topic tbh keeping with the theme of this thread so repeating talk about something else daily is kind of not warranted

just close the thread then

[valid orbit]

https://tenor.com/view/jim-carrey-ace-ventura-of-course-selfish-sure-gif-18468770

[jolly palm]

Don't get me wrong... i would love for the pool to continue to be viable for leveling. I'm just saying, if 5% of the population was driving 27% of the silver production... i'm guessing that 27% is going to disappear, and the remaining 73% is going to be cut by MORE than 1/3, based on soft cap / hard cap threshold.

[chilly tulip]

I main a cleric, if I wanted to gain exp solely by raising people that's my prerogative, but if I then began complaining there weren't enough dead people, I'd be rightfully laughed at

[fierce lynx]

There is no "probably" about it? It does get addressed but.... botters gonna bot and historically the penalties have been pretty light.

[split hamlet]

Make things that would sell during every simucoin event so the lights stay on.

[vital badge]

this is no longer the case, penalties have been pretty heavily increased with the new policy additions.

[old cedar]

Policy issue, not a systems issue though.

[fierce lynx]

Put me in the crowd of hoping they are enforced and effective... but regardless it won't help the locksmith pool without other changes. (and... moving on from this topic - have a great morning!)

[valid orbit]

For such an uninteresting topic of conversation, a lot of people are talking about it. It's like that phrase "Nobody goes to that restaurant, it's too crowded". If you want to talk about something else, just do it.

[split hamlet]

Eventually auchand or another gm is going to have to suffer through all this off topic chatter.

Maybe everyone could go to the right channel.

[chilly tulip]

This seems to have run its course until they make any changes, all greivances have been aired... my hope is that resource becomes less terrible. For giggles I'm playing my sorc today and he's got 5,191 points of 2x lumnis left and has accumulated an astonishing 10,700 necro. That's absurdly slow and bad, lol.

[rain reef]

Ok so for the Rift and SoS, and any other outlier hunting grounds that are a pain to get to, thus ending hunts constantly for encumbrance being real rough… could we please consider:

1. adding a room to those areas that allows FWI access
2. adding a picking pool (they are sneaky operations anyway, why not)
3. adding access to the nearest town’s lockers
   Just a few ideas for those spots to make them more palatable with the encumbrances

Another thought: drop silver amounts in boxes from those areas back down, increase the value of those area-specific gems, make those the more viable orb/chrism gems

[haughty ocean]

This is probably too convoluted, but to help your average joe picker with nothing to pick in the pool, they could have a no-fee pool with a limit on who can pick. Eg - Lockpickers can only pick 30 or 50 or whatever from the free pool a day. Hunters can only put 10 or 20 boxes in the free pool a day. The pool should stay deep, but because it’s free there is incentive to use it and just wait. If a box sits longer than 2 days it goes to the regular pool.

This would also help casual players who just want a quick hunt between coming home from work and making dinner. They can dump their boxes in the pool like always. And they won’t be as affected by fees because they stay within the daily limit.

[sleek meadow]

FWI from the sands would be amazing. Area locking the rift years ago may have made sense but we are so far beyond that now it just discourages use in silly ways

[wintry shard]

Maybe folks will start stopping to help when we are dead in the field!

[cerulean stirrup]

Wish there was a way to track how close you are to the 10-15m, without having to do the legwork over the course of the month. I was about to do Troubled Waters, but without knowing... seems a waste of RL money. Bummer. I really find it kind of annoying that I don't want to enjoy a paid quest because I'm concerned about the loot nerf interfering.

[dusky kernel]

This is how I felt about the resource changes lol

[dusky kernel]

It's only been 2 days on the trail end of loot cap time, id wait until Feb 15 to see how a fresh loot cap goes

@rain reef imma start picking in the terlet for sanctum folk

[split hamlet]

I never realized Duffy was a resource alt. He always seemed like more of a main.

[valid orbit]

This is a fantastic idea. Helps the little guys. Thanks.

[dusky kernel]

I played a warrior for 30 years, once I capped i started playing other professions. I am the laziest resource person and I use it all for my own people.. @neon stone how long have we been dumping grit into that damn quarterstaff lol.. I keep the economy turning

[neon stone]

I live to serve.

[dusky kernel]

Fair wages for fair work

[frosty gate]

I had a rogue that would pool pick, but not anymore. Not because of these changes, although they certainly didn't help, but ever since these changes he seems to be breaking his vaalin lockpick several times a day, whereas before I had my ;tpick settings to the point where I could avoid that. The pool certainly isn't worth repairing a broken vaalin lockpick several times a day.

No idea if these loot changes are related to my rogue suddenly breaking his picks all the time or if I have just run into a string of bad luck right when the changes dropped.

[sleek meadow]

If you forget your lm mastery that will do it every time.

[old cedar]

I think that may have actually been a string of bad luck, or maybe just different tollerance settings, I haven't had an particular issues with breaking picks except vultites. (using tpick)

[valid orbit]

I haven't had an issue with breaking picks due to this recent change, but when gemstones came out, ascension hunting significantly increased, and tougher boxes were more prevalent, so breakage went way up. I have a strategy that gets around that, but that's too off topic for here. I break a vaalin < once per month and I haven't used up a wedge in 6 months.

[unique oyster]

I've had similar experiences with the pool. You don't make enough silver to break even on the lockpicks breaking. It's random but if you roll that d100 enough times you will get a 1 eventually.

[wintry shard]

I doubt it. One of the gms was just saying when he reads discord all he sees is ignored, ignored, ignored. Which I found a bit insulting. lol

[fierce lynx]

Honestly they could just dump the whole thing into AI and read the summary in under 10 minutes.

[normal drum]

Maybe someone has said this, but I'm wondering how much of all of these changes are designed to counter the "newer" way that folks hunt with the release of gemstones... which, at least in my personal experience, is to kill as many creatures in long bursts of time without stopping as possible, to get a gem to drop. Assuming so, these changes are designed to force me to stop hunting right, or minimize the full financial blow that this type of hunting does? I think it would be my preference, if this is the reason for these changes, to tweak gemstones.

[hoary prawn]

I always do and always have, but since the zombies took over, I’ve made it a rule that if I offer help and get no response within 30 seconds, I shrug and move on. Anyone who can’t stay awake when hunting can eat the sting!

[frosty gate]

This is my philosophy too. I'll stop and ask if they need help, if no response I will assume the answer is no.

[old cedar]

and/or policy report for afk scripting...

[light ferry]

Lot of conversation this morning. I wanted to throw out the formula for determining how many boxes you can pull from the pool: 10 + TRUNC[BOXES IN POOL/100] every 12 minutes
It'll also limit the smallest lock it gives you based on your max lock with a copper lockpick. Boxes also get assigned a "phandom difficulty" which gets incremented at some interval and once this gets higher than whatever threshold it uses the your minimum lock it'll consider it valid and give it to you.
Boxes will also get auto opened after it sits in the pool for 7 days

[frosty gate]

I think changes to loot generation has been on their radar for a couple of years now, probably shortly after the locksmith's pool became popular. The release of gemstones just lit a fire under their feet to push the changes out faster.

[normal drum]

I agree -- but the box drop restructuring -- I don't think so. This feels particularly designed to stop us from hunting.

[valid orbit]

Maybe 10 needs to change to 2 or 3 now? Although I like Zoral's suggestion in addition.

[wary nebula]

One last thing I’d like to say to the GMs who may read this down the line:

Dropping these massive changes on a holiday weekend and then going radio silent is a very bad look for the team.

This kind of thing really should have been tested instead of fire first, clean up later.

I really appreciate how hard the GMs work here (I am a DragonRealms Trailblazer and the dev team here is light years ahead of DR).

At the end of the day we are a customer and this has been difficult for many as you can see. You kinda Cracker Barreled yourself on this one.

I know things will get tweaked and shake out, but people will never forget how this went down. Just food for thought for the future. Thanks again for all you do.

[light ferry]

They haven't gone radio silent, but there's been so much talk it's kind of drowned it out. They've mentioned they're discussing among themselves and figuring out tweaks they want to make based on feedback and what they've seen in the game. Unfortunately we're stuck in a wait and see since a lot of this stuff is dev work on the back end that doesn't need to be debated publically.

They did test, but didn't hit all the corner cases because they didn't have enough data. I know they've mentioned they felt it wasn't appropriate to add these changes to the test instance first. Not sure if they feel different now vs pre-deploy.

Edit: and yeah, I'm baffled they didn't have an idea about how gem prices affects so many other systems

[chilly tulip]

I mean there's some stuff they obviously didn't think about and it's a pretty big list, lol. Deeds, chrisms, bounties, 704, disks, etc. I don't get how nobody was like "hey changing loot and gems might affect other stuff in the game"

[cold zephyr]

Now you know how wizards felt when necro energy could be obtained directly from kills and a properly trained sorcerer could max out their resource energy in a matter of hours whereas wizards had a complex equation of filling their "mana pool's worth" and then slowly absorbing it through pulses. Took us wizards the better part of 18+ hours of keeping your pool filled while logged into the game.

Yep....the GMs have reverted the resource gains back to the slow, nearly 18 hours of required log in time while you have to keep experience in your mind to earn resources. It's the whole complex wizard essence building all over again, but in a simplified form: 10 exp a pulse to earn 50 resource. (before it was based on mana, a few skill ranks, boosted by water lore, acquired by killing creatures you learn from based on the amount of mana used to kill said creatures.....what a convoluted mess that was).

[tribal relic]

Thats what QC is for 🤪

[wary nebula]

Ok true not TOTAL radio silence, but Auchand has been working hard and really should have been Wyrom in here and more high level folks addressing peoples frustration.

But yeah there are 30+ years of systems that touch this stuff so you can see what chaos it created.

[split girder]

Has staff spoken to how the Confluence daily loot cap was impacted with these changes? If not, could staff please clarify?

[light ferry]

Wyrom posted messages in a different thread:

[Reasoning and issues with Stillfront IT Migration](#1459003160105582627 message)
[What they're currently doing](#1459003160105582627 message)
[basic Stillfront IT Migration details](#1461872047062908929 message)

We are looking at this very closely. I see there are more discussions happening, so I'm not going to update them all. Anyone can copy/quote this anywhere else you think it's needed. The purpose behind the release as it stands was that resources weren't meant to be accumulated so quickly with idle/inactive play. It was to promote a player market, but to also make sure there was active play. We don't want to be as punishing as the release ended up being taken, so we are looking at some methods to meet both the original design goal and to keep some of what has existed in place. This might take us a couple tries, but our goal is not to rush to swing the pendulum the other way.

This probably should have been forwarded here, but yeah. discord is very fractured and there's so much conversation this stuff gets lost. I'm guessing it needs to be pinned here. Might also be good to have a read-only place GMs can forward these types of messages to

[hoary prawn]

I know someone who dumps them in front of the NPC cleric. It won’t raise them unless they ask, but it will keep preserving them, so if they’re afk for hours their script can’t depart and carry on! Malicious - but tempting.

[vital badge]

it was, just not by him sadly.

Pinned comment
#1461872047062908929 message

[sleek meadow]

Departing and decaying should have massively more penalties involved that cannot be negated by a few simucoins

[bright pasture]

huh that’s funny - i do that automatically to ensure my boxes get picked in time and my pool doesn’t fill.

[jolly palm]

On the contrary... power hunters are going to be hitting loot cap quicker, and I'm able to just slay away now for my gemstones, completely sans encumbrance.

I'm already feeling the benefit of this on that end.

[lofty dragon]

Honestly, I'm not surprised in the least that this happened. QC in GS has been way too lax for at least the last decade.... and there's def been a trend of them fixating on a goal and trying to push out their work too fast to consider the broader implications.

[jolly palm]

Going to go out on a limb and say that I disagree with your perspective here... there has been decent engagement from a handful of GM's over the weekend. If you search a few of their names, there are pages worth of discussion/dialogue from them on this topic. Donating time from their own weekends to listen to feedback, ask questions, and engage with the player base, clearly stating to everyone that the feedback is being received and they'll like assess and tweak things based on it all.

[normal drum]

Makes sense -- then -- mechanic disproportionately impacts "casual" players -- perhaps against intention. Again. (edit: or maybe that is the intended effect, regardless of when impact happens).

[wary nebula]

True. Ok, I respect that and I rescind my comments about the staff going radio silent.

[jolly palm]

I dunno.... i disagree there.

Just using myself as an example --- Me power hunting, but not gaining loot is better for you than me power hunting and gaining loot, which would further separate the gap economically.

Now, i'm collecting the same amount of gems and likely bringing in less than 1/2 of the loot i normally would

[normal drum]

Fair -- but I am now also collecting a fraction of the loot, and also not collecting gemstones. 🙂

[primal creek]

So you want a random debuff to apply 3 minutes of 50% encumbrance....just to Kontii on loot. Cool.

Edit: We can call it Puny Biceps

[calm bay]

Combine the resource issue w/ the silver cap issue and incentivize "play time" and dedicated "character diversity" by giving a treasure bonus per account for each character you hunt so spending 15 hours on an alt results in better treasure while you accumulate your resources?

A pseudo loot cap limit breaker via diversity of characters played? We need incentives to keep multiple character accounts vs multi accounting

[abstract fulcrum]

So as a baby player, whose main is 23 trains, my take home loot after a hunt is hit or miss. If I get a box cool, but if I don’t then I’m not even hitting 1k. I don’t know if my opinions matter much in this regard but I’m not making what I was. And thats kind of frustrating.

[shrewd peak]

I dunno, I agree with your orginal comments. While Konti is correct, there's been a fair amount of GM involvement this weekend, the people that really need to be in front of these changes are silent. The product managers and developers that are in a position to really affect the policy have not posted much at all. It's been one of my gripes the changes as a whole were not discussed with players in any meaningful way up front. A lot of the current anger could have been potentially circumvented with some up front discussion or testing on the test server maybe?

[jolly palm]

Stamina now gets drained with every attack or spell cast. When you hit 0, you crumble into a heap, unable to move on.

[old cedar]

Both Wyrom and Estild have posted here. More with some explanations would be nice, but they have been here with substantive contributions to the discussions.

[calm bay]

I've not been super active in the past 6 months, but last month I has started a goal of migrating my 2nd account over to a single premium account. With these changes my plan seems to be premature as keeping 2 accounts equates to twice the potential loot generation and much easier accumulation of resources vs having a single premium account. This change does hinder MA players, but not nearly as much as the single account highly active players. I like my premium perks but have survived for 15 years without them and am inclined to see the single premium account as a bit of a handicap compared to my former account configuration. It would be nice to see some acknowledgement that single account, multi-character players are at a disadvantage and should have some kind of multi-level silver cap tiering that goes at the character -> account level.

[primal creek]

I think when YOU hit 15m GM lightning bolt is activated on your next loot and every subsequent random loot.

[wary nebula]

Yes, that was my exact intentions. The few GMs who have chimed in have been fantastic, but its the big wigs I think that should have been available for something this big. Alas, what's done is done and we can only wait and see what happens. 🙂

[jolly palm]

Just leaving this feedback, hoping to impact future rollouts and updates....

What blows my mind about the whole situation.... is that there were changes made to like 20 variables all at once. It's probably too late, because the cat is out of the bag, but I would have recommended rolling things out in 3 phases:

1) Loot Updates (Loot Cap and Loot Gen Changes)

• This would allow you to understand if the changes to gems & skins were needed on top of the loot cap impact, and all the different systems impacted by them
• This would help you see if the locksmith pool update needed to happen
• This would help get a sense of how the pending EXP for silver should be priced for proper drainage/balancing

2) EXP Updates (Both the boosts, and the one nerf -- offline exp)

• See the impact of silver to exp opportunity
• See how playing behavior changes for resource generation
• See how player behavior for alts changes

3) Resource Generation

• Could assess if the changes are necessary based on the updates from Rollout phase 2
• Could assess to what degree they should be changed

This would have very much be in line with the spirit of Wyrom's "progress over perfection" on rolling things out, learning, and adjusting --- instead of trying to boil the ocean with a completed project.

[shrewd peak]

I've been thinking about this response for a while now and I feel like something's missing. If the original design goal of the player resource system was to encourage active play, why was there even an off line absorption mechanic built into the system in the first place? That does not jive with the original design nor does it jive with having it tied to Lumnis given the 3x, 2x rates, which would greatly increase the resource generation. We've been used to these rates for years now. What makes more sense is there was a philosophical change (or personnel change) in the way the developers are now looking at this resource. I can't stress enough how wrong this current philosophy is with regards to resource generation. Just flat out wrong.

[calm bay]

I would have started with resource generation as giving the XP 5x lumnis 1st would have resulted in extremely fast resource collection. Then do the XP update 2nd, then the loot last.

[old cedar]

In the other closed thread Wyrom basically said that 1 was supposed to be in December, 2 in January, and I guess 3 in January (that one is unclear) but they got smashed together because the auction got pushed.

That said, I completely agree. I think too many variables got changed at once.

[lofty dragon]

Not dismissing you by any means, just giving a little context: For a LONG time, loot from hunting was on a weird bell-curve where characters from level 30ish to 75ish had the most profitable hunting... and by the time a character capped they were getting around half the loot in that range (possibly less, depending on where they hunted). From hunting with my own characters that range from level 45-cap the last couple days, it looks like one result of the loot changes (intended or not) was to smooth that curve or maybe even make it an upward trajectory as it should have been all along.

[frozen tusk]

What Kontii said, definitely would have staggered some stuff.

I don't think the locksmith pool fee needs to stay with the way gem values were neutered.

[abstract fulcrum]

I appreciate the context. I’m thinking of this from a newbie point of view. Like if I make less than 1k per hunt, how can anyone lower level than me survive off that? I couldn’t.

[half sable]

You might consider trying new hunting grounds. I'm running my L26 characters right now and am making more like 20-60k per hunt. Not earth shattering, but certainly more than 1k.

[dusky kernel]

ok respectfully what are you hunting that you dont even get 1k in a hunt???

[fierce lantern]

Zombies? The most over hunted thing at that level?

[abstract fulcrum]

I’m in Ta’Vaalor and hunt zombies (and everything in that area), branching into tree spirits. If I don’t get a box, which is very hit or miss, the only thing I have is gems, which is worth nothing now

[sleek meadow]

I thought zombies HUNTing was the issue...not hunting Zombies..though if we could hunt those zombies it might be fun

[old cedar]

Can you skin? If so, you could likely do better over in Illistim.

[dusky kernel]

ah alright. not that you came here for unsolicited advice but zombies truly the poorest thing in the lands and always have been 🙁

[abstract fulcrum]

Slow mode 😤😤😂😂
I don’t see anyone else hunting zombies the same time I do, so not sure how that is over hunting. I don’t want to leave Ta’Vaalor yet, I’m relearning the game and the people that exist here are the most helpful, friendliest bunch ever. I’m still learning a lot, so all I can share with you is my experience, which probably a lot of young players have. I appreciate the advice all around!

[wintry shard]

Will hitting loot cap hurt your chances (make it harder) to find gemstones?

[boreal bobcat]

Zombies aren’t just in Ta’Vaalor. All zombies are likely the same with a little reskin maybe. So even if you don’t see anyone the landing zombies getting destroyed.

[void cedar]

the zombies in TV are a different creature than the ones around the landing.. even though they have very similar stats

[boreal bobcat]

I’ve never been to the east, just going by what Wyrom has said about creatures and loot pressure.

[finite trench]

No

[frosty sail]

do we know if Minor or Major Loot boosts are independent of the loot cap? or are they wasted if at loot cap?

[old cedar]

I would be shocked if they weren't affected by loot cap.

[light ferry]

A waste. I was using them when I was trying to hit the old hard cap pre-change and it started becoming where they weren't noticable in the 20-25m range

[dusky kernel]

Yeah.. they get you to the cap faster, as opposed to say like trading which will allow you to go above and beyond

[calm bay]

They're helpful for gemstone hunting. They will accelerate you towards the loot cap since they increase the loot generation. Improving the quality of items to make them sell for more is post-generation allows greater earnings.

[remote crane]

Are you only seeing this in the gem shop or other shops too? Is it only when selling gems while on an AdvGuild bounty or other times too? Which town specific shops are you seeing it in?

[gloomy lark]

gem shop only, on gem bounty, Vaalor gem shop

[ashen carbon]

Do standards not work in ascension areas? I don't think any of my mid-high level characters don't have at least a P1 to get home with. It's only stopped me so far in the Red Forest.

[dire rivet]

i have also seen this when doing gem bounties in the Icemule shop

[frozen tusk]

Downside of more interesting loot is having to track down bards more often.

Can we please just be able to recall every item for its information?

[vital badge]

A very short-term recall on items a-la DR arena/sewer items might be nice.

[minor falcon]

add a bard pool 🤣

[unique oyster]

You remove an uncut diamond from in your climbing pack.
>
[eloot]>sell #274787796
You ask Kahlyr if she would like to buy an uncut diamond.
The jeweler Kahlyr takes the uncut diamond, gives it a careful examination and hands you 1,936 silver for it.

[You need to sell 9 more to complete your task.]
There is no merchant here that can buy that.

Solhaven's gemshop does it too.

[ashen carbon]

If your main is really only 23 trains, I'm interested in helping. Drop me a DM, tell me what you main and I'll see if I have anything laying around that can help. I've got a surprising number of things from characters i've experimented with that aren't top of the line, but can probably still give a boost.

[sleek meadow]

everyone's emojis are so illuminating

[edgy hollow]

yes, i know i'm repeating myself, but this is the exact reason i asked earlier "isn't this what the test server is for"

[royal epoch]

I think we've been engaging pretty vocally all weekend. We've just hit a point where we've got the feedback and are parsing it. I think we are all pretty used to this player reaction cycle when we release anything, especially if there's a nerf component to it.

[devout bobcat]

It may help if you do an announcement, even if it's a copy/paste of Wyrom's remarks. I'm seeing a lot of folks who just aren't aware that some things are being considered and will probably be adjusted.

[brazen salmon]

I mean I, for one, would love to hear an Auchand story about the mythical onslaughts to distract me from the painful slog of gaining resources.

[frozen tusk]

The announcements should be used more frequently.

Even if it's just a, we hear you, settle down now.

[boreal bobcat]

I mean they do that in the threads. Would be really insincere for someone to learn about the changes come to discord and see an announcement to settle down.

[still sigil]

Launch changes on live instead of test, scramble to fix obvious bugs that would've been found on test, find out massive interactions that weren't considered, and then stay mostly silent about when the rest of the obvious fixes will come?

Also: " I think we are all pretty used to this player reaction cycle when we release anything, especially if there's a nerf component to it." And yet the same release design keeps happening over and over. Almost like something needs to change in how the company releases things?

[vital badge]

I don't think that's a fair criticism. They were very active about the gem and weight issues when it dropped. The rest of the issues are more of a we need to see how this all shakes out kind of thing.

By no means do I think it was handled in a stellar fashion as a release candidate, but they weren't completely radio silent for the important bits.

[crimson pond]

"Obvious" is the most dangerous word in self reflection

[finite trench]

What’s the increased weight maximum?

[frozen tusk]

I don't think its insincere to let all players know that aren't discord savvy, that don't check pins, that don't know what threads are, that don't want to hunt for the topic that we hear your feedback, we're parsing it, we're considering options, but if you still want to offer your opinion you can do so here.

Now settle down.

[digital turtle]

I wish we had more frequent tuning/adjustment of systems (weekly, monthly) to avoid big changes like this. Would probably make it easier to understand what's going on and why. Seems like a lot of these changes are directly related to how the locksmith pool is used and it's an attempt to change that. That's not even mentioned in the original announcement.

[fierce lantern]

Entitled Players wanting to know maths and increased maximums! Back in my day, we researched and figured it out through our own blood sweat and tears! And here they've blessed us with a big question mark to figure out!

rabblerabble

[boreal bobcat]

That's for you to find out!
I intend to have this lootcap deconstructed by March!

[royal epoch]

We used to both release design documents and put things on Test in advance. It ground things to a halt because player pre-reaction was incredibly vehement about virtually any change, irrespective of scope or impact.

It's the big challenge of working on a game that everyone (staff and players) are highly emotionally invested in.

[split girder]

A few years back we were given gift box reliquaries that allow us to travel. they require high value gems to work. Will these be updated for the new gem values?

[fierce lantern]

Still do for some releases!

[vital badge]

probably bug the item in-game so it can be tracked imo

[royal epoch]

But that habit of everything going to 11 all the time always put us in the current position.

[normal drum]

Rephrased: customers provided feedback -- that feedback was too strong -- so we stopped asking for feedback.

[brazen salmon]

That's kind of the situation created when your business model gives your customers a path to spending large amounts of money to create and upgrade things in a game, though.

While I would like to see people take a beat before losing their minds, it's not a unreasonable reaction to be upset when changes make your play time less enjoyable and more work.

[boreal bobcat]

I mean if you can't agree the community is super passionate and vehemently against things that alter their playstyle in any way, then do you actually play the game?

[royal epoch]

It's not the feedback, but the incredibly poor tactics that were used to gather leverage, that was the problem.

[tawny sierra]

should I bug this?

>weight my tru
You carefully examine the tanik trunk and determine that the weight is about 24 pounds.

[still sigil]

I get that to some degree. The fact that Simu gave in on the bard changes was a huge black eye in that regard. As long as the main way to get gear is cash, I'm not sure that will really change. And I can't imagine Simu giving up THAT cow, which means it might be time to figure out how to work with the community rather than informing us it is rain. Maybe use that envoy system?

[frosty gate]

I mean, couldn't you just push major changes to the test realm and say hey, these changes are going live in a week, so if you find bugs or have any concerns please report them and we will try to address them before the changes go live, otherwise the changes might have to come after the 1 week notice.

[shrewd peak]

I can understand, and I do know ya'll really care. Plus you in particular have been amazing at putting yourself in front of a lot of very angry customers. I sincerely appreciate your dedication. With that said dumping this onto the live server is a TERRIBLE idea.

[fierce lantern]

It derails subsequent conversations whenever the hands were tipped too much. Every status update became asking for additional updates on changes that may not have been continued to be supported because they were individual GM pet projects rather than overarching Development team efforts. Remember Spell Rings, Pickpocketing Changes, Bard Review to name a few. I mean, folks are joking about it now, but how often are Savants and new player experience asked for? The more the hands are tipped, the more that emotions continue to run high regardless of whether or not the design docs are changed, and all it does is create GM burnout, and doesn't really change the end state.

[vital badge]

My emotions only have a limited number of settings.

[fierce lantern]

This was also more publically communicated about two years ago with the change in approach to help ensure that projects were not dropped off

[royal epoch]

We could, although irrespective of an official stance on that, I actually prefer a live rollout in most situations. Tested Hinterwilds bosses incredibly thoroughly on Test. Guess what happened when they rolled to Live?

[fierce lantern]

We tested the wyrm what? 150 or so different itterations?

[digital turtle]

Good changes are met with positive feedback. When the majority is against a change that is a strong indicator that it's not a good change. I don't generate a lot of loot, I play less and less as it is, and these changes are a huge surprise. I don't like them. I'm not surprised most people don't like them either.

[finite trench]

The way to understand this is that there were organized pressure groups, often spreading misinformation, in an effort to channel development, which is why the bard review isn’t done

[edgy hollow]

we have you, we don't need to do all that anymore 🙂

[normal drum]

Sorry, I've been waiting the 5 minutes to respond. -- Can you define "poor tactics" and differentiate from groups of players didn't like our direction?

[boreal bobcat]

Fixed bugs on test and found new bugs on live so why bother with test? That doesn't seem like good reasoning.

Bosses also don't affect every single player at once.

[brazen salmon]

I still can't seem to understand what good reason there was to push out a major resource change, that was never communicated, on top of massive changes to two systems.

Like, even taking out the fact that it was never even discussed... why? What impetus was there to push this change out now?

[still sigil]

I don't want to come across as attacking the idea of these nerfs. I fully support lowering the cap and changing how quickly approach cap. It is just a bummer how it was rolled out. This whole thing would lively have been a lot more pleasant if it was rolled out on the 31st so the loot cap changes were seen in actual effect than getting it out in the middle of a month.

[finite trench]

I think the way to understand the resource change is that somebody noticed the lumnis change would affect resource gain and “something” needed to be done to fix that and so it was a knock on change rather than a specifically planned nerf, which is why we only started hearing about the necessity of resource nerfs 12 hours after the change was implemented

[hazy osprey]

I agree that rolling it out mid-month was a very strange decision.

[normal drum]

Rolling it out on test is a process issue -- those that are invested in demonstrating and experiencing input have an opportunity to do so. It gives you (staff) a chance to say, HW was on test for like 2 months, this was a clear direction we communicated in advance and solicited input. While it may not have solved bugs, it felt like a positive and inclusive game building experience. (edit: process is often as, if not more important than the result).

[digital turtle]

Here's how bad the resource change is. I MA and would have an incredible advantage now over anyone who doesn't when it comes to resource gathering and I think it's a horrible change. Change it back.

[brazen salmon]

That could have been handled by capping the amount of resources gained on Lumnis by the amount before the change. Not nerfing the entire system into the ground.

[mossy forge]

9 times out of 10 it’s something players want, being built and QCd by 2-4 people who get paid beer and pizza money, in which several hundred players interact with in a way neither designed nor intended.

Also what game exists where this doesn’t happen.

[tawny sierra]

They had to known they're most dedicated players would instantly be capped with 2 weeks left in the month to be the vocal minority. It intentionally delays making adjustments in the other direction.

I would still like to know how an item that appraises at 750k, but the song is for 2.5m and only sells for 25k will affect loot cat. Is it 7.5%, 25%, or .25% of the softcap.

[finite trench]

I mean you don’t have to convince me that the resource changes are bad, believe me. Although I think the loot cap and box changes are great

[frozen tusk]

If I recall,

The paid events are what keep the lights on. This is the customer if I'm running the business.

Subscription fees are nice, but not a lot of money. I can't afford to really lose this income, but it's not my major focus.

Why make changes that both groups don't like? The health of the game is great in all, but if you don't have a customer do you have a game? Unless we're all just being taken for granted because the business believes their product is so niche and unique that it is unassailable and customers may threaten to quit but ultimately will not do so.

[boreal bobcat]

See I think the subs keep the lights on, and paid events are what the shareholders get their quarterly dividends.

[brazen salmon]

Personally, I hate the loot changes, but I understand how they have benefits overall so whatever.... 3 weeks out of the month I'm going to be hunting for my new silver-drain lumnis boost and gemstones. I'm not going to cry about it.

I do not like the box changes... they feel poorly thought out and implemented with little pre-discovery of what systems would be affected by it.

The gem/box change disproportionately affects casual players more than the more hardcore ones. Which was something we voiced before these changes happened and were told "We're keeping that in mind."

All-in-all, the communication continues to be abysmal.

[mystic vale]

Yea..most MUDs don't have a subscription haha. I think GS could keep going without it with a handful of volunteers. The subscriptions are what get us support and new content and the events are icing on top of that

[old cedar]

That is what it ideally woule be, but from the sounds of it based on past official info, it's not.

[digital turtle]

The changes overall won't balance anything. You bring down the top 1% by an amount that won't affect their ability to dominate the economy and the bottom folks (arent these the majority of players?) are kneecapped and pushed out of even participating in the economy. MA'ers are now at an even greater advantage than before. Would love to the before and after silver generation numbers to compare and be proven wrong.

[finite trench]

The game is already run by a handful of volunteers under the current payment model!

[main field]

And supported by a handful of “whales”

I wonder what will happen if the collective hive of whales and smaller dolphins decide that this is no longer worth the investment …. In happiness

Subs are cool.
Paid events are cool.

Most of it goes hand in hand.

Spenders spend.

When it’s no longer fun to play so why pay?

But happiness is the goal… time is the enemy.

[old cedar]

The GMs are the volunteers yes, though not entirely, they make the game what it is, but there's infrastructure requirements to run GS, including things the GMs don't know whow to do and probably generally aren't capable of doing.... That's not particularly small investment. I don't see any way GS is the way it is today w/o it's current subscription model.

[finite trench]

I mean threats like that are exactly why they stopped publishing design docs! I Now the 1% earners can’t brooks brothers riot the proposal threads, they have to post angrily in this thread

[normal drum]

Counterpoint: customers expressing their buying power happens when they don't feel like they otherwise have input, it's the only good thing about capitalism (besides the cheeseburgers).

[main field]

I am not a 1% earner. I barely can find time to fill my resources that I do not sell.

This affects me as much as it affects you, minus the loot cap because I have still haven’t hit SOFT cap EVER

However, I am a staunch supporter of GS. I support with my money.

[fierce lynx]

I think the message is pretty clear that people (a lot of people) are unhappy about the professional services nerf. It's been said they will be looking at adjusting this. Let's all have a cheeseburger and give them a few days to digest and respond.

[finite trench]

I don’t think I would call this a good thing about capitalism, it’s the manifestation of the increasing disconnection of individuals from control of their systems, such that consumption decisions have become the only available lever to express moral ideas. But that’s kind of a side topic lol. I think the specific response I’d make here is customers don’t leverage their buying power by posting,

[frosty gate]

I know some people earlier were asking about how purifying is working now, here is what I have so far. These are all for sure 100% new gems looted since the changes dropped:

Just realized there are some negative increase values. I use the APPRAISE verb which isn't 100% accurate so in those instances the value probably didn't change, and of course all of these stats aren't 100% accurate either, due to, you know, APPRAISE not being 100% accurate.

[unique oyster]

I'm still trying to figure out the best way the handle boxes while hunting. This hunt I found two boxes, both are roughly 60lb each. I can fit one into a disk but there isn't enough room for the other. Just one of these takes me for zero encumbrance to moderate/significant. I might be a forest gnome but I can't image that anyone picking up a 60lb box isn't going to feel it. I can field pick them but that isn't something most people can do. No idea what to do other than that. The cynical part of me is wondering if the intent was to make players leave the boxes behind since they are too much trouble to carry. That WOULD reduce silver generation but would be a very mean thing to do to the playerbase.

[fierce lantern]

Excuse me, the go-to food in the GS multiverse for anything is Tacos.

[fierce lynx]

I like tacos! Someone else mentioned cheeseburgers so I ran with it. Correction noted!

[crimson pond]

That's it, I'm cancelling all of my accounts because you said cheeseburgers.

[fast cipher]

I get the idea that encumberance should end hunts and we're okay with people going back in early but if that's the direction can we look at some gear cooldowns? It's less fun to pop your mana armor for example and go out for a hunt and then 1 creature in your hunt is over because of encumbance. The 15 minute ones aren't terrible but like stuff like Savage Power or Energy weapons being an hour before you can use them again after losing them to a box is pretty oof.

[fierce lantern]

It's a good callout that container max weights were mostly benchmarked and under the anticipation of previous box sizes though

[finite trench]

Yes it didn’t quite land for me that it is easily possible to drop a box that won’t fit in an OTS backpack now

[boreal bobcat]

We've heard you're feed back and we're increasing the max capacity of all containers by 50 lbs! 🎉

[fierce lantern]

however, a shimmering silken nightgown with layers of light transparent gossamer or something that holds 250 pounds may break my realism.

[fierce lantern]

inb4 Maylan Riend tells me that all those words are forbidden

[lunar beacon]

Well you got to put 250 lbs worth of stuff in it to keep from freezing to death

[devout bobcat]

I keep seeing adjustments to ancillary systems that touch gem valuation, but I am still confused why gem valuation needed to be adjusted in the first place. Why do we need this in addition to the loot cap?

[still sigil]

What you do in the privacy of your own basement is up to you 🙂

[mystic vale]

shocked-pikachu.gif
"Then....wha...how......where is our money going???"

[brazen salmon]

Half the people in the game are being trailed by motes of some random rainbow animal, people have talking spirits running around... let's be real, a 250lb-holding nightgown isn't the most realism-breaking thing in the game.

[crimson pond]

Also discovered that there is a second limiting factor that small races face when looting things. Nyxus removed the first barrier that was "you can't pick up more than your body weight" - but he informed me that there is a separate maximum total capacity by race. Unclear what the formula is except that my forest gnomes still can't pick up boxes around ~275lbs while naked and having 606/509 active.

Generally shouldn't be a problem - I don't expect monster boxes like that to be the norm, but it just stands as yet another gulf in the encumbrance disparity. I have maximum STR enhancives, 20/40 STR ascension, 30 day encumbrance potion, etc etc, and still can't carry what a giantkin can baseline. Not to mention all of the positive modifiers that improve encumbrance disproportionately benefit the already stronger races. I don't expect exact parity, but the gap still feels too big.

[fierce lynx]

I am assuming it is part of the overall wealth generation reduction. It will take you more hunts to earn the same or... if you are a loot capper, it will take you a little bit longer to hit loot cap. Also, while I find diamonds and emeralds a head-scratcher, as was stated by someone previously... there was a lot of inconsistency in gems that were supposedly in the same "bracket".

[finite trench]

Lmao I can’t believe there was a secret second limitation on gnomes picking up stuff

[old cedar]

Remember that diamonds aren't rare, there's just a massive corporation creating an artificial rarity and good marketing.

[normal drum]

I think they are literally signaling they aren't going to roll anything back, and it's full steam ahead.

[vital badge]

isn't there a table of that on the wiki?

https://gswiki.play.net/Race_modifiers

[cerulean stirrup]

Has anyone found a gem worth 6k? Do they exist anymore?

[devout bobcat]

This is my point of frustration and confusion. Wyrom repeatedly stated that these changes were about lowering the ceiling, the top percentage of players, and that the rest of the playerbase should not feel much impact. But this is not how things have shaken out. The floor was lowered in conjunction with the ceiling.

My loot gains are much lower than they were previously, and I can't be the only one.

[arctic aspen]

I have one on me, it's a dragonmist crystal.

[boreal bobcat]

Gem data so far

[fierce lynx]

I just mean they have been in the game since day one (pretty sure) so I am surprised that those were identified as outliers that needed to be adjusted down.

[crimson pond]

Unless I'm overlooking something, that only shows values before a given race becomes encumbered. This seems to be a separate ceiling calculated after modifiers (weight reduction, stats, etc). In this case the single item exceeded my ceiling so I couldn't pick it up, but potentially could've still held that total weight in smaller portions inside of my various WR containers.

[arctic aspen]

The gemcutter Zirconia takes the dragonmist crystal and inspects it carefully before saying, "I'll give you 6,960 silvers for it if you want to sell." Hopefully this helps with any data being collected. It's not bard improved or anything, it was picked up before the changes, so I don't know if gems before the changes were left untouched 🤷

[vital badge]

hmm, maybe I'm confusing it for the weight calculations then. For some reason I thought it was showing the encumberance and total capacity formulas as well.

[tropic creek]

Now how about chrism gems? After changing around the values it would really help to know which one(s) I should be looking for

[old cedar]

gems before the changes didn't see any backwards modifications

[fading flare]

Yes, but you need to look at the tier 7 and tier 8. Tier 7, the very rare, is usually around 4 to 5k avg when you find it. Tier 8 (extraordinarily rare) is the same as it used to be, like 8 to 10k.
If you have enough trading ranks to appraise the gem, it will tell you the rarity and quality.
I still need to make a new list for myself of the things to keep now, but until I can remember all of them, I’m just appraising to check.

[frosty gate]

I found an ebon winternight sapphire worth 6300 according to the APPRAISE verb. No idea how accurate that is compared to what the gemshop pays though.

[dusky kernel]

if your hunt is make or break by an activated gear thing, I dont know what to tell you

[unique oyster]

Hardcore players will find a way to keep making money even with these inconveniences. I don't the casual players will since it is easier to just ignore the boxes. This will widen the wealth gap which isn't good for the game. That aside, I am not sure it is worth playing a short race any more. Encumbrance has ALWAYS been a big problem when playing my forest gnome but with these changes, I honestly can't think of why I should play a race that puts me in more danger than a taller one. Even with max stats, I still can't reach the carry capacity of the tall folk. Do the short race have enough benefits to make up for carry inconvenience? I don't think so any more.

[fading flare]

I’ve always been annoyed by ambushing height restrictions personally, but eh.

[tropic creek]

Can someone share where the blasted gem tier list is?!? There is one somewhere right? These tiers keep getting referenced by GMs and players now

[fast cipher]

Never said that

[boreal bobcat]

You get the rarity from an appraise with 25 ranks of trading.
These are the ones I've recorded so far #1461872047062908929 message

[fierce lynx]

Those are very rare so sounds about right.

[old cedar]

I think you can get rarity before 25... At least I'm pretty sure I've gotten it from some with zero trading. Value definitely took 25.

[frosty gate]

Yup yup. Looks like I managed to purify a couple other gems past the 6k mark. I honestly don't know what the value of these gems were pre-nerf

[devout bobcat]

This will widen the wealth gap which isn't good for the game.

I agree with this take. If the changes stay as they are, the casual player will make less and the power hunters will just work around the inconvenience. This does not align with the stated reason for these updates.

[finite trench]

The grinder nerf is the loot cap being lowered. the changes to gem values aren’t really connected to that, I would agree they won’t affect grinders much because they were already hitting the old loot cap

[tropic creek]

There's gotta be a table on the GM side for gem rarity, how about porting that over to be player facing? Not like something like that should be a big secret, especially after such a messed up value change as this

[minor falcon]

totally glad I keep finding 107 pound boxes that don't fit into any container that gets me killed. 🤣

Why does every box weigh 100+ pounds

[vital badge]

first-world problems

I have yet to find a > 100lb box, let alone multiple

[digital turtle]

These box changes are ridiculous.. It's like they didn't know there were different races and an encumbrance system...To release new boxes and not change encumbrance at all is just... incredibly frustrating.

[rotund siren]

...are the animal spirit totems that get fuelled by skins going to be re-balanced wrt the loot changes?

[fierce lynx]

Not immediately helpful... but might I suggest Ascension Porter?

[frosty gate]

The simple solution is to hunt Moonsedge and leave your boxes on the ground so I have more boxes to pick up.

Win/win for everyone!

[unique oyster]

The reason there are so few small races even before this was the encumbrance issue. Maneuvers kill, people don't like dying because they picked up one too many boxes. Now it is literally 1 box, for any race.

[edgy hollow]

[eloot]>_drag #280450695 #275256086
You pick up a gold-trimmed mithril strongbox.
Your strongbox won't fit in the Tovaris disk.
>
 The strongbox won't fit in the disk. Trying a different container.
[eloot]>_drag #280450695 #280418247
You put a gold-trimmed mithril strongbox in your web-woven haversack.
>l in disk
There is nothing in the disk.
>

weigh my str
You carefully examine the mithril strongbox and determine that the weight is about 55 pounds.
Roundtime: 5 sec.
R>
The Dwarven deputy ambles south.
R>weigh my str
You carefully examine the mithril strongbox and determine that the weight is about 51 pounds.
Roundtime: 5 sec.
not as big but first box of a hunt and it can't even go in an empty disk

[normal drum]

I keep hoping they just roll them back entirely and don’t need to update.

[boreal bobcat]

Not to take away from your point but it's not 1 box for any race! My stable of half elves do just fine.

[tawny sierra]

Or how lowering treasure output by 33% across the board wont change player habits and address the the wealth disparity.

Or how resource generation is one of the few ways casual players can interact with the economy on a somewhat level playing feild.

Or how the bounty system works

Or how Chrisms work

[minor falcon]

The main issue is fitting them into containers that go up to a max of 200 pounds and not really the encumberance part. Our containers barely fit 2 boxes in them with these changes..

What new player that isn't capped has a 200 pound container? or even a 100 pound container. I feel like a new player is going to be running back to town constantly with a box in their hand. If they have to climb anything and put it away then they are done for. I've found multiple 100 pound boxes on my bard just today.

[vital badge]

all of my characters are well below capped, and have 200lb containers. Some of them have multiple. They aren't difficult to acquire.

[fierce lynx]

I'm not finding the new box sizes overly challenging either and I don't have any giants. But I do have a couple of smaller race characters that I haven't played since the changes that will likely find this a challenge.

Glances in Neovik's direction and lowers his voice. I think he just needs to work out a bit more.

[finite trench]

Gem rarity is gem tier and so it is actually on the wiki, although it’s a little scattered among different pages

[digital turtle]

What Nisugi and Faulkil said... Small races hit the hardest.. on top of the nerf.. Feels like all that money spent on 60% WR has lost a lot of value as well...(when you cant even fit boxes in it anymore)

[mortal nexus]

Yeah! So that I can follow you and pick up the ones you drop at tables. 😄

[fading flare]

The winterbite pearl and winternight sapphire are both in tier 8 too, I believe. But at least seven. I’ll check later when I’m in.

[jolly palm]

Even when they open things up to players on the test server... it's like 5-10 players that actually take the time to help test.... they're in a lose lose situation on that front

[minor falcon]

so we only design systems around existing players who have access to all this? I'm just saying new players aren't going to have containers that big. The boxes are just wonky and need to have more gems instead of being really weighed down in general.

There isn't anything special or interesting in these big boxes usually. Other than more silvers or an over weight ingot

[unique oyster]

I have a coin bag that can hold 25k silver weightlessly. Ironically, I can't put the gold ingots in it which ends with me have more carry weight than if I had found the silver instead. I CAN put the ingots in my disk but then I run the risk of losing them if I die. This is complicated puzzle for sure.

[devout bobcat]

Am I off base or are there a lot more clothing treasure items in the mix now?

[vital badge]

I was replying to the erroneous assumption that only capped characters have access to containers larger than what's available OTS. And the ingots are half the weight of the coins, roughly.

[tender scarab]

This and anything in this vein is definitely the best argument I’ve seen for a LOOTCAP verb so far. Loot cap affecting pay events means that people could be spending money, unable to get full value, and unaware that they can’t.

(And before anyone says “but they’ll know if they’re not finding loot,” that assumes they’re already at loot cap before buying. They might be 100 Duskruin entries away from loot cap, but if they buy a 250-entry book with intent to get loot rewards, they won’t know until 40% of the way in.)

[fierce lynx]

That generally reflects a lower tier of loot (at least it used to). I am seeing this generally as well.

[remote egret]

How does one reach this level of petty? I must know!

[digital turtle]

So many systems are affected. Seems like quite the oversight. If I had a magic genie with 3 wishes I might spend one on reverting these changes. I know, pretty dramatic right?

[mortal nexus]

I just find it interesting that the QC for Sadie items can take up to two weeks for items to get delivered, but changes that affect EVERYONE gets dropped like a banana peel.

[chilly tulip]

PSM3 made the small races a lot less worthwhile and I’d never roll one again, this box change is the icing on the cake

[finite trench]

I am pretty interested in where people are experiencing loot generation nerfs. Is it all downstream of gem value changes?

[tawny sierra]

How do Duskruin entries calculate into lootcap. Is it song value, appraise value, or sell value?

[gusty crow]

You'll find the song value nearly the same as appraise value.

[devout bobcat]

I dislike that clothing treasure is more common now. It's less valuable and not useful unless they update these items to be compatible with crafting.

[fierce lantern]

Wouldn't you just convert Duskruin to Bloodscrip rather than items if you were near lootcap?

[uncut juniper]

1. Very Common
2. Common
3. Uncommon
4. Infrequent
5. Unusual
6. Rare
7. Very Rare
8. Extraordinarily Rare```

Of course it starts at 0 and not 1

[amber osprey]

there is a separate maximum total capacity by race.
Thank you for doing science!

The "maximum carrying capacity" is informed by a number of variables. One is race, and there are a bunch of others. I probably shouldn't reveal them, but they're things that one would expect.

[boreal bobcat]

It reads Magnificent on our side for 8 I believ?

[terse island]

I mean, for me, if I'm not able to get the weapon/armor/shields I was during arena runs anymore it's a detriment to me both silverwise in the ones I was pawning, but more-so in the ones I would melt down to actually forge nifty weaponry with.

If I can't get the secondary gear, I'm far less likely to run the arena as other options.

[fading flare]

That’s for quality, not tier, or at least that’s what bard songs were giving me

[uncut juniper]

Do you know how many times I counted those and couldn't figure out why 8 wasn't what I thought.

because IT STARTS WITH ZERO

[tender scarab]

It hit me that last night that now that purifying almost any gem is a terrible use of time, I need to start doing every type of gem bounty to extract max value from gems in a way that does still work.

But you did give a great tip the other day that I should first sell off my entire existing supply of old tier <8 gems with value above and beyond the new cap. Tikba, unexpected ally of gem bounty enjoyers!

(“Enjoyers” might be a bit strong. Optimizers?)

Edit: I agree I don’t enjoy them. That’s why I haven’t done them for a couple years on anything other than my newest monk when she was pre-cap (to speed her along) and my sanct machine alt cleric I try not to play (to get resources under the old resource system). Once that bounty boost change came out to let us select the bounty type, I would only go for herb bounties on the latter.

[solid phoenix]

You have cultivated all you can of nature's grace for the time being.🎉

[dusky kernel]

this is a case for the system check your lootcap in the background if it its within x and y, making you confirm doing TW, not for a lootcap verb

[finite trench]

Nobody actually enjoys them yeah that was broadly my entire point in that discussion (and if you angrily post in response to this you’re giving up your five minute slot to do so!)

[tawny sierra]

riddle me this. appraise value from pawnshop NPC is different than both.

#1461872047062908929 message

[dry sedge]

I used the pool last night and compared the town fee to the pool fee. The pool fee is 50% of what the town locksmith charges.

[vital badge]

arrays make me do the same thing

[mortal nexus]

Song values are WAY off. I don't know anyone that goes by that figure.

[fading flare]

Until they make it possible to actually find the gems you need for the gem bounties now, I’m keeping my stash. I’ve already started digging into it. That part is broken. Usually you would find at least half of the gems (like 4 to 5) on a 10-minute or 15-minute hunt, but now none show up.

[gusty crow]

Did staff post a list of the new tiers for the gems?

[frosty gate]

😱

[mossy forge]

They’ve stated that repeatedly. Plus they can’t can’t account for how items interact sometimes.

I don’t have any love for coding but I know they’ve taken great strides to bring us new stuff and that code would make the matrix burn.

Looking at you specifically, mounts.

[remote crane]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oewMbg8wFQU

[normal drum]

You should get a title.

[finite trench]

That’s the effect of loot cap on gem bounties (you drop lower tier gems), so it probably just means the loot cap change is affecting you where you weren’t affected before

[tender scarab]

Yes, but if their plans had previously been to get the loot for silver (or Perigourd’s case of smelting material that I hadn’t considered), then they’re shifting to a consolation prize that they might not have realized they would need to based on their unknown proximity to loot cap.

And my example was someone only buying 250 entries since that’s the max individual book size, but this is GS and people sometimes buy thousands at once.

[tawny sierra]

I enjoy the arena? But not if a week of play is going to nuke my lootcap for the rest of the month. Im not going to fork over money just to hand in a book for script and miss out on actually enjoying the play experience.

[mossy forge]

@gusty crow see here.

[gusty crow]

That does not make either of the calculations correct!

I'd still like to know BEFORE I HAND OVER MY SILVERS, what the box is worth to me at the bank/gemshops/pawnshop.

Charging me 30% of the appraised value of that temp padded plate in the box, is not going to make this a positive outcome for this player.

[fierce lynx]

You can switch to bs rewards instead of loot?

[vital badge]

just to keep the gem info in a central spot:

#sorcerers message
Animate dead (730):

The new gem ratio is 1/200. I will update the wiki when I can.

and phasing (704):

#sorcerers message

For completeness of the other update, the max weight for phasing a treasure chest is now double what it was.

[fading flare]

I’m not at lootcap. I got ~100k off of the last hunt and five boxes that cost me 3K each to put in the pool.
Gem bounties are probably just broken somehow

[finite trench]

I do think it would be helpful to be able to distinguish between people seeing loot reduction due to the loot cap (intentional nerf, you are a high earner), gem values (unclear how much of a nerf this was actually intended to be), box costs (intentional, the locksmith pool was basically an Industrial Revolution for lock picking), or some other weird thing

[tawny sierra]

I may misunderstand the mechanic then. This would be my first DR since 2021. Whats the BS reward versus the loot reward? I thought BS was already part of the reward

[brazen salmon]

You can opt out of the additional loot for more BS.

[gusty crow]

But we don't know which gems fit in which tier. 5 days ago, I'd have said Diamonds were great to find.

[fierce lynx]

What Riend said. You don't have to actually earn loot so it would not have any impact on your loot cap. You can get bonus bs instead. 🙂

[edgy hollow]

https://www.reddit.com/r/pettyrevenge/

[fading flare]

When you appraise them with enough trading ranks, you will see both the tier (spelled out as common, rare, extraordinarily rare, etc) and the quality now, like…an extraordinarily rare gemstone of average quality.

[normal drum]

Are loot boosts valuable now?

[digital turtle]

can bandits start dropping boxes now? that would be nice...

[old cedar]

For those who rarely or never hit cap, absolutely.

[tender scarab]

They've been valuable since Gemstones came out, but it does presume you can't hit loot cap without them.

[finite trench]

Technically as long as you haven’t found three gemstones they are valuable

[gusty crow]

And also loot reduction because of loot pressure - which may be a hilarious term in the new Elanthia. (Someone has to look out for those OTF hunters, I remember those very painful years!)

[digital turtle]

@tender scarab can you explain a comment you made earlier on how you think removing Loot Pressure would make so many places worse than they are now? Every time I go into ME, the loot is bad and its crowded... wouldn't removing Loot Pressure make the loot go up? Is it ever empty enough to make loot go way above what the norm would be? Also, how do you feel about Loot being tied to critter difficulty? ME would always generate more loot than any non ASC hunting ground.. I'm not sure what's the stance against this idea..

[fading flare]

...
 You estimate that the winternight sapphire is an extraordinarily rare gemstone of fine quality and worth approximately 11,200 silvers.  It would need to be supplied to be used in an alteration.``` @boreal bobcat
Scarlet despanals are apparently only Tier 7, very rare, though. Hmm. Checking a blazestar...  Blazestars are also 'very rare'.

[normal drum]

Nice. Thanks.

[finite trench]

Every ascension area is being buffed by loot pressure. This is a key part of why these discussions about loot pressure are so annoying — people assume the areas they hunt in, the hardest areas in the game that only a small percentage of players can survive in, must be unfairly getting loot nerfed due to overpopulation. they are not. Moonsedge loot does suck but it’s not because of any aspect of loot pressure that we understand.

[tender scarab]

This sounds like something I said years ago (I'm thinking like 2022-2023) in reply to players like Ptolemy asking for loot pressure to go away because they thought it would improve their loot, even though Ptolemy was already hunting in the Hinterwilds and the loot pressure back then pre-Gemstones was almost non-existent. Valravn plumes were worth four times what they are now and undansormr scales more like eight times. If he came back today (well... five days ago before the loot changes), he'd be astonished how much worse the loot is.

For you as a Moonsedge hunter, removing loot pressure might indeed make the loot better. I assume it would. But that wasn't where the people who were asking to kill loot pressure were hunting at the time, not realizing they were asking for self-nerfing. They were tunnel-visioned on the fact that loot got significantly better during Duskruin (because, at the time, it's also true that the arena was worth fighting in, so many characters stopped regular hunting for three weeks) because of eased-up loot pressure that they thought they were getting hit harder by loot pressure than they actually were when it wasn't Duskruin season.

Basically, they'd see 2500 silver valravn plumes go to 3500 during Duskruin and think loot pressure was extreme. But now those plumes are 700. They didn't know how good they had it.

[gusty crow]

Are you checking old or new gems, Mister Fulmen?

Or did old gems become nerfed?

[fading flare]

New ones, although that winternight sapphire might be old (should be the same?). Tier 8 supposedly wasn't touched in terms of value, according to Auchand. Only the lower tiers.

In my opinion, only Tier 7/8 are worth keeping for orb gems now, very rare and up. Regular chrism requirements are at least Tier 7 atm, but a chance of Tier 6 (diamonds/emeralds), if they are purified and orbed via it. Hopefully that changes so instead of 3k, it's like 1k to make one, minimum. Same for 517 requirements and other things, deeds, etc.

Gem value for deeds should be doubled again on top of what it was, or quadrupled. Or the deed formula should be changed.

Finding a despanal or a HW gem just to make a chrism atm...not that easy

[tawny sierra]

What about WPS invites? am I giving those up with the BS reward?

[tropic creek]

Where you at, I can get you a couple despanals

[remote egret]

I do have a lot of old uncut diamonds/emeralds that probably has the required value for chrisms and are orbs. That I guess is kinda nice...Although I suppose I won't be able to 1004 them INTO orbs... I like how @finite trench 's suggestion just makes VOLN even MORE powerful with symbol of dreams.

[digital turtle]

Are you saying with the examples of HW skin values saying that Loot Pressure has made HW loot much worse? I don't really understand what you're saying with the Ptolemy example. It sounds like yes, Loot Pressure has made skin values and loot overall in HW go down significantly.. In other words, that Loot Pressure wasnt as bad as people thought back then but now it is Indeed horrible.. Is that what you're saying?

As for skin values, if I understand Wyrom correctly that's just a mechanic at the furrier that drops skin value when a certain amount of skins have been sold which means you'd have to hoard skins and log in in the middle of the night to maximize profit.. If that's how it works.. Man is that DUMB... how does that help a casual player? It helps that guy that's on 18 hours a day that they claim they are trying to bring down...

[finite trench]

It’s finally time to just change the orb gem requirement for chrisms or remove the whole ability. It’s going to turn out to be a blessing in disguise! Have fun waiting for your stats to recharge, nerds!

[vital badge]

RP while you wait for the stats to normallize again

@fierce lynx Bold of you to assume I can't do both?

[fierce lynx]

Why RP when you can sit AFK and post on Discord?

[fierce lantern]

maybe this is where I RP

[ashen carbon]

It comes from doing IT work for small businesses and small city governments. The kind of people who will tell you on Friday that they've been dealing with a problem for almost a month but never told you, but now it has to be fixed before the meeting on Tuesday. Oh, and they're closed on Monday.

[tender scarab]

Tikba asking for Voln buffs since Symbol of Dreams will fix those stats up!

And since we're on a 5-minute timer, replying to Zhagen too...
Sorry, I think I was unclear, but yeah, loot pressure has wrecked the Hinterwilds of today. That said, removing loot pressure would still result in the Hive and Sailor's Grief having worse loot than they do now. It's a double-edged sword.

I do think loot pressure is really not necessary after all these other changes, but don't feel strongly enough about it to make any serious arguments.

[finite trench]

Since societies should be abolished and their abilities parceled out to the players, a voln buff is really just a buff for all of us

[chilly tulip]

I hate chrisms because they’re just a tax on clerics at this point, both financially and inventory management. I’m probably going to let my chrismarium run empty and tell anyone who wants me to raise them I don’t do chrisms and they can take it or leave it

[fierce lantern]

All I'm hearing is that there's an opening in the chrism market

[brazen salmon]

I JUST filled mine up. ><

[finite trench]

For me the first sign of my passion drying up was when I just started throwing rezzes without asking if they wanted a chrism. They have twenty seconds to unlink

[digital turtle]

Getting rid of Loot Pressure would boost the bottom earners while not boosting the top that are already throttled by Loot Caps.. If they really want to balance top and bottom it's the only change that will actually bring the bottom up.. Everything done so far has brought everyone down.. and that effect is heaviest and most impactful on the bottom earners..

[mental compass]

What they did didn't address the problem at all. They just nerfed the loot. If your getting 40% of the treasure (which is what it is) and you dropped the caps. The harder core looters will cap quicker

[finite trench]

well, the cap reduction addresses the problem, because once the grinders cap, they won't generate any more loot. that was the one part of the plan they told us about in advance and the part that makes the most sense

[tawny sierra]

The problem was stated as

To address the impact of automation and balance the economy - where the top 5% of earners currently account for 27% of all treasure generated - we are making the following changes:

A flat reduction across the board doesn't change that the top earners behavior is what accounts for that disparity

[tropic creek]

The hard core are going to get some of the same benefits even from that. Sure they'll hit cap faster, that just means they can move to character 2, 3, 4, etc... sooner to loot cap on. The disparity will remain near enough the same

[remote egret]

I've never understood this. I always make it clear people gotta pay for the chrism. They always do...usually 3x the value too.

[finite trench]

but there wasn't a flat reduction across the board alone, there was a flat reduction coupled with a large reduction in cap, which most players never get close to. that (the cap reduction) reduces actual income for grinders and doesn't affect regular players.

@tropic creek I agree that ultimately without addressing the scourge of multi-accounting the problem will not really be solved.

[fading flare]

So, to be fair, there were 'two' parts to silver generation changes. One was a general reduction to everything and the other was lowering lootcap. Just to be clear on which we're talking about. Both were mentioned. However, I do think the impact on lower levels, etc, is too much.

[calm bay]

We need Astral Vault to be updated akin to how Phase was updated so you boxes count for half their weight in case you need to emergency vault a box in the field.

[digital turtle]

33% less loot at the top.. And with boxes being so heavy that hunts have to end earlier and are not easily stowed, etcc.. gem values getting nerfed.. how much less are the bottom earners making? Probably close to 33% 😛 Gotta have a way to bring the bottom earners up...(if you're really trying to balance as was the stated goal) Getting rid of Loot Pressure is the only simple way I can think of...

[lunar beacon]

They could do something crazy like, say, putting a monthly cap on moving silvers from one account to another or something like that.

[slate bluff]

To be honest that stat isnt really that bad..... compared to the real world. GS truly is a utopia of equity!

[dusky kernel]

tikba smells and can't control what I do with my five minutes

[wintry shard]

This is going to get them worked up just watch... (I'd be all for this too with no other changes or even just the lowered lootcap)

[tawny sierra]

I'm not going to decide what is a good or bad target for them to achieve. Only that their problem/fix as stated isn't designed to achieve it.

[finite trench]

I'm not sure how they could actually do this but it would be really funny

[mental compass]

think I guess I better Shutup in game before I get warning. Ugh. This was rushed and poorly executed. If one of my programmers did this I would have had a lot to say.

[frosty gate]

More purifying stats:

[hard folio]

I opened this thread to see Itzel is typing, and I was all “oh bou, ya’ll gonna get it now!”. But then it stopped. Discord lyin’ to me. Bleh.

[remote egret]

Would the gem re-evaluation have effected what rarity of gems dropped in certain places? I only ask because I used to find honey beryls not-so-infrequently in RR. I don't know what type of rarity they are supposed to be...and I'm assuming rarity goes with value...so are they just unlikely to drop in the same places they were? mainly level 50-60 RR? (EDIT: This was answered via DISCORD by Auchand. Answer is: "no")

[fierce lantern]

Sometimes we reread and reflect before hitting send!

[fierce lynx]

💎 The Kezmonian Honey Beryls must flow! 💎

[tawny sierra]

I think more softcaps would probably produce better results. A cleaner curve at 2.5, 5, 7.5, 10 million silvers etc. A flat reduction will probably add more disparity since theres no difference in time invested between 0 hours and 40* hours a month of treasure farming.

[finite trench]

they lowered the soft cap and the hard cap! they did even more than you're asking for!

[timber kraken]

Glad to see skinning bounty rewards get fixed. I’d also like to see some sort of solution for receiving gem bounty tasks after getting fully loot capped. Because it is effectively impossible to do them if you can’t get gems.

[tender scarab]

Just gotta hoard in advance!

Edit: I don't think I'd necessarily propose buying from playershops as a solution except maybe pre-cap since post-cap gems add literally dozens more options into the equation. But I guess if enough people start selling gem jars...

[remote egret]

Or buy from all the available player stores!

[mystic vale]

I have to say as someone that was above 10m for the month at the start of this, after giving it a little time to feel out, 1% feels REALLY bad haha.

It's punitive in so many ways beyond silver gain. There's lots of quality of life factors that are impacted by this like magic item drops, bounties, supplies for chrisms and animate level boosting, etc etc.

I'm out of small statues and unlikely to get more until February, black crystals too. I have not completed a gem bounty since the change.

I support Tikba's Modest Proposal haha

[finite trench]

I actually have a pretty straightforward proposal for fixing the gem bounty problem.

[cold zephyr]

I'm way behind on posts, trying to catch up....but...

Based on my limited testing, I feel that all gems I have found are either low end of their value or they're are unable to be purified any further while still being at the low end of their value. I've been able to easily sing to each gem I've found 8 times before really risking the chance for my level 44 bard to blow them up.

For example I came across two emeralds on my bard while out hunting.

1 was valued at 1910 silver. I was unable to purify it at all, leaving me to guess that it was an orb gem with a value of 1910.```

From what I gathered as well, a *rare* gem - which is what emeralds are - every successful cast of 1004 brings their value up by 200 silver. This means that for 4 mana I can gain 50 silver per mana used. If I can purify an emerald 8 times, I know the value on it has increased by 1600 silver. Same goes for an uncut diamond since it is also a *rare* gem, every cast of 1004 nets you +200 silver.

On an *uncommon* gem such as a red coral, every cast of 1004 increases the gem's value by 25. This means I can earn an extra 6.25 silver for every mana point used to purify that gem. If a red coral appraises at 200 silver at the gem shop and I cast 1004 8 times at it, I know the value will now be 200 silver higher and the gem will now sell for 400 silver, instead of 200.

[lusty jetty]

I know animal spirit totems have already been mentioned, but also compartmentalized quivers have taken a hard hit with these loot changes. Please look at these. an uncut diamond used to get me 50-60 charges, now it's like a flat 20

[tender scarab]

I suppose they could just not give out gem bounties to people at like 14m+ for the month. (Some number under 15m to allow a buffer in case they hit 15m while looking for the gems.) I'd personally still want them because I'll have a stash, but eh. Greater good?

[fierce lantern]

Can you please bug item the item in game to make sure it's captured for the queue?

Or I'm making a ton of extra work for them for things on their radar.... Either way

[main field]

Why not make loot cap at 1 mil, and return everything back to normal.

Then everyone can hit loot cap, and make the same amount of silvers

[tawny sierra]

Just get rid of loot altogether and implement UBI straight into our bank account

[dusky kernel]

manna bread lines

[main field]

Btw …

I’m not sure if it has been mentioned by anyone else…

But I’m in full support of all the changes to loot, loot cap, boxes, and lumnis as is.

I sincerely hope that they double down and do NOT revert these changes.

You should be actively playing to acquire resources.

[finite trench]

This is resource points, they cut this

[boreal bobcat]

Man that version of ubi was highly skewed.

[tender scarab]

Had to look up the acronym, but yeah, it's not quite so universal or basic. You could make below average (rogues/warriors), need to pay more to get the average (rangers), or make above average while paying nothing or close to nothing to do so (clerics/sorcerers/wizards).

[royal epoch]

I know we're still hitting some quirks from the changes, but I'll say again that I'm overall pretty happy with how they feel in terms of silver gain. (Leaving aside resource stuff.)

[tawny sierra]

offline resource gain should go away, thats fair. But it should still be on a curve. No reason 0-15 hours should be at same rate.

[royal epoch]

I am probably in the minority here, but I love finding a giga-pile of silver.

Or at least a big ingot.

[normal drum]

The gemcutter Zirconia takes the gold ingot, gives it a careful examination and hands you 735 silver for it.```

[royal epoch]

I saw one north of 15k, which was neat.

[old cedar]

You heard it here first, peeps....

Auchand loves big ingots, and he can not lie....

[brazen salmon]

I meaaan, it's hard to feel good about logging off making silver and logging in the next day to getting absolutely nothing.

Maybe I'll feel differently at the beginning of the month, but right now... it's not a great feeling.

[royal epoch]

I hear you there.

I haven't hit treasure cap this month, so I'm not having the same issue.

[tawny sierra]

Im hoping your individual feels aren't a metric, but I'm happy for you. A flat percentage drop in loot does not change player behavior and will not address the disparity of 27% of treasure going to the top 5%

[royal epoch]

You are correct; they are not a metric.

[finite trench]

I pretty much agree that the only fundamental error with the changes is offline experience absorption needing to be fixed so that people can play the game in a normal way

[brazen salmon]

I will say, despite my frustrations with how the lumnis silver drain was framed as an "exp buff", my exp going BRRRRRRRRR this afternoon is nice.

[south trail]

Just doesn’t feel good hunting and not finding anything in the last week of the month. Don’t really care the loot cap was lowered; I’m good with draining silvers. It’s the lack of fun/reward for playing that feels bad.

[normal drum]

I would be fine with the treasure changes, if we were starting to see and hear of interesting items. Hard for me to get excited to get a new type of a gem (ingot) that is worth less than other gems used to be... I will be very excited when I see my first 7x, s6, t5 xav longbow with animal script that crumbles after 100 shots.

[frosty gate]

There really should be some sort of system for people who hit loot cap. Maybe something like ascension where you can earn points for every 1k of silvers you earn past the loot cap in a month. 1000 points to bump up your strength by 1!

[royal epoch]

I've spent my whole MLK day on that problem. 😛

[shell phoenix]

Convert all feras weapons to 10x

[royal epoch]

It'll be harder to hit loot cap next month, which should help with some of that feeling.

You're kind of getting the worst of both worlds this month.

[fierce lantern]

Why did you instantly get one and drop it in kobolds?

[boreal bobcat]

Well that sounds good, that belays some of my fears for how the system works.

[tender scarab]

I'd actually rather have 10k silver than a temporary super weapon, but I don't know whether that's typical or atypical. 🤣

[fierce lantern]

Leafiara hates fun if it reduces gains.

[brazen salmon]

I want things I can use or sell/use to buy things I can use. 🙂

[finite trench]

I think probably many people would rather have 10k silver than a temp script but the big takeaway is actually people don’t want either of those, they want promissory notes on the bank of eorgina

[dry sedge]

I contemplated just using the locksmith instead of the pool because it's faster and if you add a decent tip you're paying the same thing you would the locksmith. On the cheaper side, tipping one silver plus paying the fee is a kick in the pants for the picker.

I had hoped the fee would have been closer to like 200 to 500 silver flat rate.

[normal drum]

Auchand, that is the best news I've heard all day. Leafiara, I bet the pawnshop will give you at least 25k for it. Also, do we need to update the 25k emoji? (edit: daaaang someone is on it).

[tender scarab]

To be fair, it's entirely possible that a temporary super weapon would generate more than 10k silver for somebody via significantly accelerated TTK for as many hits or shots as it lasts. This would only apply to people who otherwise wouldn't be able to hit loot cap and whose ordinary gear is far behind the temp weapon, but presumably that's still most people.

[fierce lantern]

See, I always used the locksmith pool with a very low tip because I wanted to give some rogue working on lockpick mastery a box to work with. From my perspective as a halfling, my go-to was historically just, ignoring boxes entirely. I started bringing them back just so the rogues not looking for tips could gain some 'riskless' XP

[boreal bobcat]

I'll be excitedly awaiting my temp lore ring with twist to cycle lore.

[finite trench]

Hot take here is they should drop temp script items that work in slots other than main weapon and main armor. Throw some six shot arcane sidearms in there or 100 cast held focuses. Lore ring too! Basically anything that would be a legendary drop except also make it explode

[normal drum]

Bringing in breakage via treasure system's new items that outpace existing items and are necessary for end-game content seems like a good way to backdoor in breakage and save the game. Just saying.

[devout bobcat]

So were the other loot nerfs introduced to prevent folks from hitting cap too early in the month?

[sinful coyote]

A true Day of Service

[wispy forum]

i also don't have any care for or interest in temp gear, so you have at least one in your corner

but, hell if we are the outliers here, we'll make a fortune selling them to the normies

[tender condor]

me, at the item limit basically filled with 5 use gemstone shotguns. I MIGHT REALLY NEED THEM SOMEDAY

[tawny sierra]

From some of the player feedback and Auchand's comment, it sounds like the answer is a probably/maybe. Based on what they stated in the dev announcement it would be hard to speculate.

[devout bobcat]

I really dislike that if true. It's punishing everyone else for the behavior of a minority of play styles.

[boreal bobcat]

You know I've always found the gemstone classic comment odd. There wasn't a loot cap in gemstone classic. Was there just no loot?

So not hunting 16 hours a day then?

[shell phoenix]

We were paying by the minute back then

[finite trench]

Did I ever tell you about how Christine Love made an end boss in get in the car loser that detonates the elixirs you were saving for boss fights

[tame copper]

Should we start treating ingots like fishing trophies?

>weigh my ingot
You carefully examine the gold ingot and determine that the weight is about 114 pounds.
Roundtime: 5 sec.

[chilly berry]

I’ve only ever hit soft cap in the old system and I did it the month gemstones were released and this month trying to intentionally cash hunt prior to reduction. I appeared to be at 15m cap when the change happened. (Not complaining. A data point)

I’m curious if I can hit cap next month in the new system releasing this behavior. I’m going to try to see if I can hit it by the 17th hinting the same way. (Basically 5 hours of continuous hunting a day, 5 days a week).

I don’t enjoy playing this way. Just gathering intel. I can only do this on Luc anyway. Everyone else is too squishy

[lunar beacon]

As I understand it (it was before I played), basically people just constantly hunted the glacier and the silvers glut started to warp the in game economy so they implemented loot pressure

[wispy forum]

all i remember was sitting in line is east tower waiting for Drizzdt to pick my box that i found after finally getting a claim in dark orcs

[chilly berry]

I remember when Methais was selling lint for 10k. I sure bought it. My How times change.

[fierce lantern]

I'm kinda at awe at old pickers. Having the wherewithall to know their limits, folks giving you boxes that they may have just picked up from who knows where... And needing to choose a lockpick based on what info you had to get XP.. let alone just remember all critter levels!

[neon stone]

Lots of nostalgia for getting in line in the East Tower.

[tribal relic]

It was stated encumbrance was meant to end hunts, but looting one box in the beginning was doing that. That part among others was poorly thought out and executed

[foggy carbon]

Every now and again I’m tempted to throw out an ‘open picking for glacier on down’

[ashen carbon]

I'm so out of touch with the pricing and generally only die to a very few specific things and luckily my last 3 raises have all been from the same 2 people, 1 who never does chrisms anyway, that I jut handed my primary rezzer a jar of dragon's tear diamonds. She'll let me know if I need to catch up.

[tawny sierra]

Not necessarily, if it’s actually multiple softcaps then the first 1-5 mil could come significantly faster than the remaining loot caps. MA’s would still have factors of scale but it would allow for less time played to reach a more normal baseline average of treasure distribution.

Edit: this is totally speculation

[devout bobcat]

If there is some interim level of soft cap I'd really like to know that. Otherwise that's just speculation.

[twilit rock]

We are supposed to be getting “ jackpot” silver finds? Two days in HW and I found it to be mostly consistent. I don’t think I’m near loot cap either.

[amber osprey]

There is not

Assuming I understand the question correctly 🙂

Which is a radical assumption at this point in time!

[tawny sierra]

Ill see how it plays out but I don’t know how they can reach the stated goal to correct “27% of loot going to 5% of players” only by reducing the existing ceiling and treasure output across the board.

[mental compass]

that is Too obtuse. What levels? Is that all levels? Is that just 100's? What about players that just want to RP/ Does that come into play/ Does it factor in tipping? Does it account for rogues Making 2-4mill a day in the pool? It needs more variables answered before its meaningful. As we all have learned from the news, the delivery of information can always be slanted, clarity and released datapoints are helpful. IE 12800 players made 12b this month. 25% of that went to the top 5%.

• Could we get this per hour of play?
• are F2p Included?
• are tips etc included.

Its just too hazy with the generalization given.

[alpine walrus]

Ahh the good old days....

[tawny sierra]

I wouldn’t expect any details, and honestly that would probably just fuel the peanut gallery. At this point I’ll see how it affects my progression next month and decide if I’m still having fun.

[devout bobcat]

I had the day off and have been power hunting for about 7 hours, so here's my gains for the day:
-19k resources
-22k exp
-830k silvers (125k per hour)

This is from the Sanctum. Hunting until out of mana and resting only until recouped, minus a few gaps for some chorers, and I did take a workout break.

[tender scarab]

That sounds wildly low to me compared to the Sanctum three days ago, though I guess it depends what percentage of each hour you were out looting vs. resting!

Edit: Yeah, if Nisugi’s getting at the gem value reduction, it’s probably basically all attributable to that. I assume even white-point star diamonds are junk now. That 7-hour figure (or let’s estimate maybe a 5-hour looting period) looks more like a 1-hour figure in the old Sanctum given the described hunting pattern.

[boreal bobcat]

60% less wildly low?

[finite trench]

They probably can’t without also addressing multi accounting but it’s an attempt

[sleek meadow]

I have a random suggestion...to create some interdependence....change Chrism Gems from random gems to Scarabs...then Clerics will have a reason to do business with rogues...and we could eliminate the issue with new gem orbs...

[lucid latch]

Workout break? Well there's your problem.

[fading flare]

I just made about 163k in a 30-45min hunt in HW, after selling everything off. (I was also using a major loot boost though)

[devout bobcat]

I cannot survive HW. I am smol.

[alpine walrus]

Get gud!!

[sturdy ridge]

7 hours, honestly you describe it as a full day at work, so resource gathering is about 2 and 1/2 days

[mental compass]

Income is hovering around 40%ish per day for me. Same general hunting, same hunting grounds. The gems being less and the boxes less frequent is a bit of a double whammy. I sometimes would get a diamond and an emerald in a chest, now its a DQuartz and an White opal.

[cerulean stirrup]

This is a game and not a job. I respectfully disagree that a part time work commitment should be required to get the most out of a game.

[devout bobcat]

Pretty much yeah. I balanced my chores around my mana timer, trying to finish little micro tasks before my mana refilled. And for the most part I was successful both in getting my house clean and returning in time. I was curious to see what a full day of grinding would yield. And the results are abysmal.

And I didn't mean to re-open the resource conversation since that's already slated for revision. I was speaking more towards the loot gains.

[main field]

That’s why you can pay cash for things at events like DR.

You use your RL cash to catch up to all the people who spend their time ingame

You shouldn’t expect the same rewards vs time that others invest

[sturdy ridge]

Part of the interesting loot is the 400 coin chests that probably count towards your max

[tawny sierra]

I care more about my players progression and my time playing than whatever MA swarms are vacuuming up loot.

[wispy forum]

you use your cash to buy fun cool things that you enjoy - the concept that a player is behind or needs to catch up is crazy - this game doesn't have an "END" - it's the journey, the chase, the advancement and whatever else you take joy out of it from - don't add tedious systems and arbitrary friction to make "casuals" or "hardcore" players feel more important than one another

you can both hit resource cap and it doesn't mean either of you is better than the other and it can be fun for both of you - i 100% believe this

[fading flare]

Yeah, once you buy all the things, the motivation disappears a bit too

[main field]

So why introduce a loot cap to begin with ?

Why even have a resource system .., why not grant everyone a free 50k resources a week?

That’s tedious to have to earn it

[wintry shard]

You guys keep saying this but there are a bunch of people that have already hit cap and aren't earning loot while those that have not still are. I haven't hunted seriously since the changes. I'm making pretty much nothing. So it's kind of working!? Not picking on you Asoma. Just ended up replying to your post.

[cerulean stirrup]

I already don’t get anywhere near what the big time investors get. And, let’s face it, the big time investors are ALSO using that time to provide the RL money to take advantage of those event benefits as well. I don’t really care about that. I’m upset that prior to this weekend, I had fun logging in for my, maybe 2 hours a day… finding a bunch of boxes and fun gems and knowing that I’ll likely cap my resources on my ONE played character for the week. Now, I am not sure I’m going to cap her resources, even WITH investing significantly more time than I can for an average weekend. And again, I’m talking about a single character, not alts. Not multiple accounts. It feels like this has gone way too far in a harsh direction for an admittedly casual player. And why? I STILL have not had someone explain this to me in a way that makes sense, other than… too much money circulating in game (not that it’s in MY accounts) so let’s go ahead and zap what tiny bit of mechanical joy comes from the hunting grind, and let’s do it on MULTIPLE fronts in the form of encumbrance, less boxes, cheap gems, and you’ll never sell your services again! (Which, for the record, I have never even done)

[tawny sierra]

If I understand your point I don’t think you can look at this month data at whether or the changes were successful. (I’m ok being picked on, just words on a screen)

[wispy forum]

great questions!

personally, i wouldn't do a loot cap, but i believe that exists solely to stop game system abuse, not for any purpose of fun or motivation

as to the resources, I'm a believer that having to commit SOME amount of work to acquire things makes the result feel more rewarding and earned - i could see a middle ground though - every character gets 25k resources a week just for logging in - yup, that's it, you logged in 25k/50k

and then you can earn an additional 25k through playing - obviously we'd need something to handle multi characters on single accounts for this, but i could see a pretty reasonable compromise here that probably accommodates both play styles

[cold zephyr]

Yep, 4 hunts with my warrior that needs 2 more emeralds and I haven't found any from any looted creature or the 6 boxes I received. All hunts were ran with major loot boost. I end up going through roughly 50 kills each hunt and at least once every hunt I need to run back and unload coins.....I certainly could just set the flag to not pick up the coins, but then I'm leaving my loot for someone else to pick up or the janitor and I'm not okay with paying his wages.

I took the bounty originally 2 or 3 days before the loot changes and in that first hunt I found 6 out of the 8 I needed from loot drops or out of the half dozen boxes I pulled. I refuse to dig into my stash of gems just to finish this bounty, I'm stubborn like that.

[fading flare]

I've had a habit of keeping a jar of nearly every gem in my locker that is good for bounties, and I probably have ~200 jars between various spots, most of them 50-100ct. I never liked dipping into them either

[finite trench]

“You get 25k for logging in” is pretty close to how the old system worked tbh, because that’s pretty close to how lumnis works. Even then you have to grind for a while to complete lumnis but it at least made an effort to equalize gains between normal players and unhealthy grinding

[wispy forum]

i dont get the impression people playing 7 hours a week are expecting the same rewards as people who play 7 hours a day (maybe I'm wrong here?), but i also don't think that means they should feel punished or not get anything at all!

anyone investing time in this game should be able to pull enjoyment from it - i'd wager a lot of folks only able to invest 7 hours a week into the game WISH they could do more, and that's what you WANT them to feel; but i bet they value their time as much as someone investing 7 hours a day

it just seems like there are certain aspects of systems meant to inhibit heavily invested players that player's with less playtime are feeling hinder them when they aren't the target for the change in the first place

[digital turtle]

This is the comment that Dev needs to look at and reply to. They keep ignoring this point. The changes are not balancing anything. They are going to push the common player even farther away from being able to participate in the economy.. I bet this player here can't afford the lumnis boost either.. If the intent is not to balance top and bottom earners (it surely doesnt seem like it), then clearly state what it is. Is it the locksmith pool? is it a silver drain?

On a side note, could we get boat prices to come down about... say.... 33%? seems fair no?

[cerulean stirrup]

Oh, I can afford it. I paid for it, and bought some chrisms now while I can afford them too… and I’m actually in the hole for my silver gain for the weekend. And that’s after playing A LOT more than I normally can.

Will I do that every week? Absolutely not.

[boreal bobcat]

Yeah I need to buy a bigger boat since the chronomage just got 3x more expensive.

[finite trench]

Shouldn’t you be finding three times as many gold rings and riding three times as often for free

[fading flare]

Chronomage Collusion gem just got better

[shadow rivet]

33% isn't enough of a drop. My understanding is those inflated boat priced are what they are BECAUSE of the top earners after OSA was inteoduced. I believe that man-o-wars were under 10 mil back then

[devout bobcat]

The Man O' War ship has always cost 400m silvers.

[wispy forum]

yea i didnt see a problem with the old system - my understanding is the new change wasn't even meant to address a problem with how things used to work - it was just something they were worried about MIGHT happen with the introduction of the new xp options

[digital turtle]

They said loot cap would allow prices to come down on things like raffles specifically that most people couldn't afford. Now people wanna say it was a risk/reward decision people made not to participate. Bologna sandwich! They said and presented data that showed most people could not afford 250k raffles. Now they say the lumnis change is to make 100 more accessible for players and it costs 250k a week. They know most people can't afford that already. I guess I have to concede that raffle prices did end up going down... Boat prices should go down too..

None of the stated goals make any sense to me..

[half sable]

Devotion: 50,000/50,000 (Weekly) Well, that was certainly painful. Started playing at 0530 local time yesterday and went from 58 to 60. The leveling part was pretty cool

[vital badge]

I'm at 33k so far, and almost 2 levels worth of XP.

[unique oyster]

I've had a few hours to think about it and the weight of the new boxes is really bothering me. Boxes are now so big that they disrupt my hunts and force me to run off and pick them just to not have any more weight than normal. The encumbrance issues of being a forest gnome has always been a problem and I adapted best I could but now it far too much of an issue. I am not enjoying my hunts anymore. I've thought about spending $130 to race change to half-elf or human (which almost doubles my encumbrance threshold) but aside from the price being insane, exactly how much will this solve the problem? I could carry maybe one or two more boxes at best? That isn't worth the cost and hunting will still be unfun.

I think the worst part is this isn't going to affect hardcore farmers as much as me. I am sure they will find a way around this issue and still make the most money possible. Me making less isn't going to help the silvers problem. This whole thing is leaving me really frustrated.

[full flare]

I also feel the changes at the bottom end are overly harsh. I hadn't played for a few days prior to the changes, and logged in yesterday to the changes. I hunt as a nearly freshly capped character in a heavily loot pressured area (OTF). Prior to the changes, the loot was bad, so bad. That being said, it was enough for me stay here because the experience gains for me outweighed the loot loss and I was earning at least a minimal amount. After what I experienced yesterday in hunting and what felt like a serious nerf to my personal treasure gain, I felt I needed to actively start tracking it. After my expenses (10000 silver spend spell up from the Invoker and locksmith surcharge for my one or two boxes), my silver gain after approx 2.5 hours of hunting (bounties and regular outings, coming back when mind is full, and never hitting an encumbrance limit), my silver gain is 17,020 silver earned. I don't know, but something feels off here.

[fading flare]

I think I would recommend...allowing something like 15k resource to be absorbed offline and boosting in-game resource gathering by 2x (to 100/pulse). Also, add a loot boost multiplier for the first 3-10hrs of game play each week, one that doesn't kick in until three hours in game are logged. But lootcap still exists at 10m as it is now.

Also, add more expensive gems/jewelry to boxes and reduce silvers. The weight is still a problem. Or put in platinum shards.

Something like that might work, with some tweaks to the exact numbers.

It benefits casual players, has no real effect on hardcore players, and does not allow much offline experience, so 50k will not stack week after week for brief logins, but it is something for those who need it.

[finite trench]

Cut in game resource absorption to 5 a pulse unless you’re actively roleplaying. GMs can go around and check every pulse to make sure.

[unkempt ravine]

I am still advocating for a return to the way resource was! All of these changes seemed geared towards (at first I thought it was 27% of players and now i know) the 5% of players who have the luxury to spend all day in the game! That is unbalancing to the rest of us. They spend the time let them reap the rewards but don't take all these drastic measures and kneecap 95% of the game's players! I tried this new way to gain resource.. it was like watching molasses try to cross a room. It was utterly excruciating to get the final 15kish (I forgot exactly but it was not even a half of the 50k resource bc I was already close to 200k) I needed.

[finite trench]

Man some people think it’s trolling to suggest we reward people for roleplaying in a roleplaying game instead of rewarding them for sitting around AFK! Guess that demonstrates what some people like to do in gemstone

[strong lake]

Rewards for roleplaying? Sounds like favoritism.

[vital badge]

you have to be part of the in-crowd to get rewarded for RP, you know that Tikba. It's all a conspiracy. Also, 95% of statistics are made up.

[full flare]

Is there an official post with regards to the why for the change to profession resource gain? or is someone able to ELI5 me the rationale for this change?

[mossy forge]

90% of roleplay goes without said intended reward.

[fading flare]

Also, 'your' roleplaying may not be anyone else's. Fulmen hunts, rescues, heals/raises if needed. That's the Hammer of Eonak doing Paladin things. I do not care about sitting in a library for a GM lecture.

Occasionally, I forge things.

[vital badge]

what if there were hammers in the library? What if you were to bring your own? Who swings the hammer for the blacksmith of the lore? I may be overtired

[safe epoch]

I'm not the stat tracker that all you folks are... but I honestly feel like I'm finding about the same number of boxes. It's odd really. Weight is still an issue although not nearly as it was at the outset. I agree that the fee is annoying but only because none of it goes to those doing the work. I do see how that encourages player interaction and again that's probably good.

I personally don't care for the selling of exp but I get folks gotta eat. All in all (leaving the resource stuff aside) I agree and like the changes for the most part. Chrisms... ugh that has to be fixed but I know it will.

[finite trench]

Reminds me of the whole discussion we had about “I’m roleplaying as a character who loves finding three gemstones a month more than sleeping or talking to other people”

[mossy forge]

Your not wrong. My place is on the battlefront, not the political machinations of meddling wanderers. I'm here for the people, not the nobles.

[fading flare]

Merchanting, character ambition, wealth...all are roleplaying goals as well. Personally, I rarely bother with more than one, and almost never on an alt even though I flagged them. Too much trouble.

[lofty dragon]

I've been tracking a few stats on my boxes to see if I can figure out how the fee is determined, but so far it doesn't look like anything I've thought to track is even a contributor to that number https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1rdTYoF4D8F67FknoI41hQeI12vTYtsTOAE5D9pDYios/edit?usp=sharing

[safe epoch]

Oh one more thing... and excuse my ignorance. Perhaps this isn't a command that GMs want to create or perhaps there's already a reliable script or command that I'm unaware of.... but since there IS a loot cap that, despite what Wyrom articulated, feels like it might impact a lot of people. So would it be possible for a player to see where they stand in loot gathering? In other words, if my character is near or at loot cap (which will probably never happen), can she learn it other than just stop getting things? I know when I sell a skin and get 12 coins for it I am already going.. there's that darn loot cap!... but that's probably not it at all. It's probably just a poorly skinned skin.

Anyway, a little knowledge there might go a long way in helping players see reality... if possible and appropriate.

[finite trench]

I would try to also track the NPC locksmith fee because the one piece of information we were given is that the pool fee is always lower than the NPC locksmith fee (which implies they use the same factors)

[mossy forge]

I think its pretty close to 25%; maybe 20.

[fading flare]

Someone said they tested and it was 50% of the locksmith fee. I'm not sure if premium or other such affects it, but I believe a GM mentioned trading reduces the pool fee somewhat.

[lofty dragon]

I've checked on several boxes, the pool fee looks like it's always half the NPC locksmith fee

[alpine walrus]

Everyone is forgetting that DEVs said the offline Resources gain was never intended

Soooooooo

There's that

[fierce lantern]

Look, Arachne favors the strong...

[safe epoch]

yeah and CA was implemented because it was always intended to be harder and locksmith pool fees were always intended to exist... yeah that seems to be the common response

I'm not forgetting.

[vital badge]

she also likes spiders a little

[finite trench]

so one thing I would note then is that it's long known that NPC locksmith costs aren't related to the value of the box contents: https://gswiki.play.net/Larton

[wispy forum]

was it creating a problem though? no one from dev ever mentioned it was an issue that they were looking into

regardless, the feedback is that the new resource generation feels way too slow and is a feelsbad and players with less weekly playtime in particular really enjoyed the pacing of the older system, intended or otherwise

[mossy forge]

I beleive thats because scarabs and trap components are considered part of the value, and you don't get those from larton.

[fading flare]

he definitely charges more for traps

[lofty dragon]

hhhmmm maybe I need to be having my locksmith character check the fee rather than whichever character found the box.... that trading tidbit might be throwing off my research

value of the boxes def doesn't contribute, the two numbers clearly have no relation to each other... and I'm 90% certain lock/trap difficulty isn't a factor like I've seen some saying

[wispy forum]

im just a bit passionate about this whole thing from a dev standpoint is all - as a player, almost none of this affects me negatively or otherwise - i don't like heavy boxes and they are as boring as always, but I'm excited to get more xp

as a dev, this approach to design; touching multiple intertwined systems with a wide variety of updates, adjustments and variables all at once, some of which don't even tie into any stated player facing goals has me all hot and bothered

[merry meteor]

sounds to me like they need a technical program manager to pull this all together

[lofty dragon]

actually, no. I have at least one pair of boxes with almost the same lock difficulty but only one has a trap.... and the one with the trap has a much LOWER fee

[fading flare]

Hmm. In a related note, I just tossed two Reim boxes at the pool and they were 900 and 1000 silvers, compared to the 2.5-3k most Hinterwild boxes are

[lofty dragon]

I also have a pair of boxes with the same lock difficulty, no trap on either, 10% pool tip difference is 14 silvers... but the one with the (slightly) lower valuation has a fee that's 640 silvers higher than the other. The trading skill difference between my two characters might account for that difference though 🙁

[split hamlet]

Should I read everything after 10am today or is it mostly the same. Boxes too heavy. Silvers too many. Where is the loot?

[mossy forge]

I stopped at 250+ new messages.

[alpine walrus]

All the same

[fading flare]

Same with a few suggestions and things tossed in

[neon stone]

Someone should make a word cloud from this thread

[normal drum]

I really wanted to get through this thread, but folks keep jamming it up with comments about how many times other people comment. I just can’t even wade through it. I am so just so busy.

[bright pasture]

i think without loot pressure, GMs would have to tailor-decide the loot for every creature individually - and adjust it as needed - which, at least if you were concerned about balance, would also need to track profession, race, gear, and training changes. instead of that, they just automated it with loot pressure to make it self-correcting.

i can't imagine anyone on the development side would want to remove it and give themselves that job. i'm not saying they won't, or that it's impossible for it to change - it's just why i think there never seems to be any talk on the development side of ever changing it - not that i have seen, at least.

one major effect of implementing loot pressure was preventing strip mining - but this was only really relevant at the lower levels. the post-cap area treasure base was so high that even the 15-25 or whatever MA groups couldn't affect the loot in SoS despite pulling out 500 mil/month, for instance. whereas a lower-level area would be affected at just 10 mil flat. note that this kind of dynamic influence from one person is, in my observation, entirely impossible now with the advent of loot cap

if ME loot is too low, it's because the area is too easy (or convenient, or pretty, or people's love for vampires) for some statistical majority for whatever reason. i know i'm basically killing kobolds if i go there, but i don't count

SG, on the other hand, is both hard (i guess?) and hard to get to, so i'm sure its treasure is great - guaranteeing some point in going there. although with loot cap, this "point" is obviously laughably irrelevant at this point in the loot game. you'd only go to SG if you particularly enjoy it for other reasons - not loot, imo

[tribal relic]

Which is nuts for a system that never gets updated and for request to be ignored when plenty of folks ig sail. But hey let's roll out changes that upset most of the players without discussion

[devout bobcat]

Wow that explanation actually makes a lot of sense, and was very informative.

[digital turtle]

Thank for that thoughtful response. I wouldn't imagine that changing loot would be that complicated. I can't really get away from thinking that higher level creatures should give better loot. I think as it is, loot pressure is something that an elite few have down to a T and are able to maximize because of their expertise on the system and how it works. Kudos to them for figuring it out, but it's not like anyone's making a guide to maximizing profit or how best to farm loot. People keep that stuff close to their chest.

[finite trench]

Higher level creatures do give better loot

[bright pasture]

i agree completely that higher level areas should have better treasure. i think gigas gemstones have addressed this in some sense, but seem to represent more of an increasing power tier OR increasing silver cap, since they cost about as much to upgrade as you might earn in the re-sale. high-end enhancives also play (or did and still might??) a big role. outside of that, loot cap is loot cap and i lost interest.

i used to track my silver/hour rate pretty closely, as this was the only important metric for me. now the only important metric is efficiency. i was surprised to learn that not every Wizard has been duplicating their wands since the dawn of time. i even sell my boxes.

i think the important gap is that post-cap experience results in basically nothing. there is no meaningful increase in silver/hour beyond basic post-cap goals. while it's hard for me to imagine the player base would be in favor of this, i think it's important to have goals - and knowing that your silver cap journey is basically over by cap - often considered the "start" of the real game - and barring those aforementioned boosts in power - leaves little to dream about.

[fast cipher]

There isn't a lot to figure out here the less accessible or more difficult the hunting ground is the richer it will be. In ascension there isn't a ton of choices. It's just time and risk tolerance.

[finite trench]

the main advancement in the state of knowledge is our discovery that "you can 130 from here to icemule" turns out to be much more significant than any level of hunting difficulty in terms of which areas will be heavily populated

[flat tusk]

Though to Earthdiver's point, isn't it the issue that difficulty is not an objective measure? I assume that at cap, there are still differences between what the different professions can handle. What's tough for a warrior might not be tough for a wizard, but if there are more capped warriors than wizards then of course the hunting ground that's easier for warriors is going to be more crowded.

That's what I'm taking away from his point that if loot cap were to be taken away things would need to be adjusted on a case-by-case basis which would be time and resource intensive.

[bright pasture]

being able to ring to the locksmithpool (or bank!) was a remarkable divergence from previous hunting design, to say the least. picture hunting as a halfling in the Rift, Old Ta'Faendryl, Sanctum, etc. for a perceived eternity. and then one day you can just ring there. but now you are a giant and you're like, what

[chilly berry]

Wait, can you ring in/out of sanctum now?

[digital turtle]

I think you're going a step further than needed TBH and I wouldn't think that much detail is necessary.. At the very least, capped and asc creature skins should be worth more than any lower level skin... and they should drop better boxes, better gems, etc.. IMO.. (ASC should always be > non ASC) Isn't it Loot Pressure that breaks this model?

[finite trench]

while I think that's a good point you also need to note that the professions of hardcore ascension hunters are themselves responsive to perceived advantages. if being a capped wizard were better than being a capped warrior, you'd find there are a lot more capped wizards. and then if they hired a GM who played a lot of square professions and wanted to redesign the maneuver system you'd suddenly find a bunch more capped warriors running around again.

[bright pasture]

ME and HW - to the locksmith pool and bank

[sturdy ridge]

I think you can ring to the under ||potty||, pretty sure I used familiar gate there

[primal creek]

You can gate from oasis to a few places in sanctum. But the only free ride out is 150k rhaiken.

[mellow gyro]

Me is harder than HW until you get to Sanguine Grove/Pits/Berserkers then SG is ASC 1.1 beyond both of them.

[south trail]

Hive is harder than ME and somewhere between HW zones

[sturdy ridge]

You mean you don't consider the periapt a free ride out?

I stopped hunting there when up hunting in HW and other ascension became an option. Before that though i never worried about a dead periapt. I am a prepper though so I always had more than one fully charged one

I also made sure I could use lighting (125) indoors from lore so I could blow boxes in sos

[primal creek]

Time and effort is a cost. I am lazy and pre bloodstones one poorly landed lurk ended my hunts quite easily. But I will likely move to HW. No pawn is annoying almost like hunts stopping from the new boxes in SoS. But its easier to get in or out.

[boreal bobcat]

Man I thought you said the new bosses in SoS

[primal creek]

Those sneaky box bosses.

[boreal bobcat]

I've never really paid much attention to imbeds but I feel like these are spells that were not common before?

[devout island]

its a shame to see the game we have adored for 30+ years be destroyed so quickly

[chilly berry]

‘splain?

Redacted

[sturdy ridge]

Here we go again

[gloomy lark]

nah don’t explain, we good

[mossy forge]

Everyday its the end of the world with someone.

[cloud dew]

I don't know about Barkskin, but the rest don't seem unusual... except for Censure in a worn item, lol. That seems a leftover from when the spell was Neutralize Curse

[slate bluff]

Its time to rise up and make our voices heard!
500 more messages before tomorrow should do it

[split hamlet]

Just to make sure I'm staying caught up:

• 704 - Fixed

• 730 - Fixed

• Gem Bounties - Fixed

• Skinning Bounties - Fixed

• 325/Chrisms - Not fixed

• Deeds - Not fixed

• 511 - Not fixed

• 517 - Not fixed

• Scripted Items (Quiver, Totem) - Not fixed

• Cobbling Tools - I don't know what that means

[sturdy ridge]

Add fix resources and I'll erase my message

[split hamlet]

I'm not really looking to discuss it, but I wouldn't mind a thumbs up or thumbs down to poll support for:

Allowing up to 5k resource to be earned offline, per day, which is 35k/week.

• Daily logins look good to the boss, or something.
  The remaining 15k resources would remain as resources currently are, 50 per pulse, or an additional 5 hours per character.

[rotund siren]

Cobbling tools

[wintry shard]

But the loot contents are not always higher than the pool fee. lol I had a box that didn't even cover the pool fee after I sold everything. More proof the loot cap works. At least I think I'm in loot cap.

[brazen salmon]

This is a good time to remind folks that ;bank and ;ledger can help you track your lootcap if you're curious!

[split hamlet]

There is also a pending update to track the locksmith pool fees. (in ledger)

[slate bluff]

Dam, that's a great idea..... (Looks at the bill on Feb 28th: 2,739,040)

[ashen carbon]

;ledger has almost no documentation to it, how does anyone know what to do? Only thing I know to do is type in bank account because someone told me to. I tried to use the --report-character and it just didn't do anything at all. Thanks for the responses. So, I ended up doing this for long term to see how that works out.. Does that make sense?

;autostart add --global ledger --report-character

I don't only have one character.

[flat tusk]

You have to initiate the script with --report-character. Meaning kill it first, then run it again like Riend says. Then when you type bank account it'll have the current character's contribution to the totals.

[brazen salmon]

;ledger --report-character

It is a little weird that there's no documentation on it, but I believe it's in the script itself.

[gusty crow]

If you only have one character, do you need to do that?

[boreal bobcat]

Yes, it's what triggers the lootcap estimation report.

[ashen carbon]

Thanks. I'll keep an eye on it now that I have it running, see just how far away I'm getting from lootcap each month.

[gusty crow]

Well, hmmm, how do I put THAT in my Autostart?!

[ashen carbon]

;autostart add ledger --report-character if you're only doing one

[gusty crow]

I never ever knew you could add params into an autostart script. Thank you!

[ashen carbon]

I always forget, it wasn't until Magp13 mentioned starting it that way that I even considered trying to autostart it

[mystic vale]

Wow what are the odds haha, great game, too short. Never finished it because I didn't want it to end

[finite trench]

absolutely a great game

[dusky kernel]

ingyat

Every single person who has said they have no care or interest in temp gear has bought something at a super auction, so take it with a grain of salt 😉

I've long been a proponent of "give us fun stuff that isn't permanent/game breaking" rather than nickel and dime us on things we already have

[rigid sparrow]

maybe offline resources could be earned somehow through active play?

[finite trench]

they literally have always been?

do you guys think when people talked about offline resources they meant like you just don't play the game for two weeks and auchand manually increments your account? that would explain the bizarre responses, I'd hate that design too

[long coral]

those expensive necro rings become near useless when you take advantage of the xp upgrades if you can't absorb LTE

[rigid sparrow]

you still get lte. just not resources currently.-

nevermind i realize you're talking about on lumnis.

[long coral]

yeah 5x lumnis and then there is the 100k per week bonus after lumnis that I don't know what happens for that. I haven't done the math but it sounds like the ring won't do anything unless you earn over 200k per week using both those. something like that and that's insane for something that was very expensive.

[rigid sparrow]

i mean there's still the 250 a day at midnght, there's at least that. but yeah that's a big waste i spent well over 100m for my ring.

[long coral]

Mine is 100% lich curse and still has 45k+ charges on it. 358k LTE in the pool

[wispy forum]

Because i hate temp gear thats why! Ive also bought tons of dr gear too. Dont deny me my baby 🐳 status!

[south trail]

Trying to figure this out: 1. Here's a gemstone quest - you can hunt forever and might never find a 2nd gem. Hold on... you're hunting too much, here's a loot cap to discourage you from chasing that 2nd gemstone. 2. MA armies are a problem, so we'll fix it with CA. WAIT... we want MA for revenue, so we're going to make sure you don't get resources unless you MA your alts. 3. Lets bridge the gap between the rich and poor by putting a loot cap on the rich..... but we'll also reduce the amount everything is worth and charge people without lockpicking alts a big fee to make sure the poor stay poor. Tongue in cheek approach here. The changes were annoying because they were abrupt not because of the changes themselves. Only thing I wish they'd figure out is how to incentivize hunting past the 10m loot cap. And no, endless gemstone grinding is not the solution. heh

[long coral]

The fun is the silvers you didn't make along the way

[mystic vale]

I've been thinking much the same thing. So many systems are designed at odds to each other here haha

[dusky kernel]

Honestly the biggest most frustrating change?

I used to use the uberbar resource bar to see how deep into lumnis I was, and now I have to type lumnis info every time. Can the uberbar folks please give us a lumnis uberbar 😅

[mental dock]

I have removed some posts. No warnings have been issued. Please remember to critique the system, not other players. Thanks y'all!

[alpine walrus]

Good morning ELANTHIA!!!!!

I'm ready for an amazing day of fun and frolicking.......

[vital badge]

I just aliased ;eq multifput("exp","lumnis info") to exp

[warm agate]

Not sure if this is the still the place for it, but the problem with gem valuation continues IMHO, just sold this You ask Kahlyr if she would like to buy a blackish blue idocrase. The jeweler Kahlyr takes the blue idocrase, gives it a careful examination and hands you 9 silver for it.

[sleek meadow]

One other thing that I just thought of…correct me if I’m wrong…I know you will. But many buffs don’t tick off when you are offline so if you bought a pill to hunt…then if you are saturated it made sense to log off and go do some other things for a while (play an alt, sleep, work) but now the pressure is to even more stay logged on and sit around which means more of your pill buffs time is wasted…less benefit, so a decreased value to the pills as well.

[vital badge]

you are wrong! I hate this take... I can't prove it but I'll be emotional and grumpy all day because of it! Hmmph!

[sturdy ridge]

My 2x per day 1912 is more meager than before

[split hamlet]

Um, for todays topic. I'd like to understand the purpose behind changing the amount of boxes that are generated, specifically why we now receive "3 boxes in 1" versus the way it worked previously.

I'm struggling to understand how that is beneficial.

Treasure Boxes: Box drop rates are reduced by 2/3, but the output per box is increased 3x.  Finding a box will be more rewarding, and disarming/lockpicking experience will increase 3x to offset the lower frequency. Locksmith Mastery reps have also been reduced by 2/3.

What is the "why" behind this change?

[devout bobcat]

That's the one change that does work in our favor with the new locksmith pool fee.

[sturdy ridge]

Because boxes are worth 20-500 silvers and that factors into your loot cap

Pool fee is based on box value (presumably?)
Lockpick exp is now 3x

[split girder]

I figure it was to reduce the volume of activity in the pool in general because rogues/pickers were getting too much exp or something silly

[split hamlet]

If the fee is based on the value of the box, one would assume that the fee is exactly the same, it's neither a savings nor a greater expenditure.

The negatives of this change have been stated several times over: extremely heavy boxes, instant hunt-ending encumbrance.

If the goal were to make boxes more rewarding, I would think they would have more gems, magicals, etc, not silvers.

I wouldn't be opposed to more "loose" silvers when a creature is searched, vs filling the box with silvers. Because then encumbrance would be a steady increase as kills were made.

If the goal were to reduce volume of boxes, because of too much experience, I think they would not have also increased experience for picking by 3x.

I think I understand a lot of the other changes, gems, etc. I do not understand this one, and I hope a GM can provide more clarity on what the goal of this change is supposed to accomplish.

[primal creek]

It nerfs the pool by 2/3 less scarabs, trap components. Which might be why they reduced the reps. Which I am guessing scarabs were not counting towards ANY loot cap previously.

[flat tusk]

Loose coins would also support the value of weightless coin purses.

[split hamlet]

I think that's a fair callout. But wouldn't an alternative be to simply change the percentage of boxes that have scarabs to 2/3 less?

That would alleviate all the side effects of the new 3-in-1 boxes.

[crimson pond]

I much prefer the new box paradigm myself. I still don't feel like my net encumbrance is any worse than before, and the jackpot monster boxes are more frequent (which I think is still at least moderately exciting.) Granted, i do have a 25k weightless coin gambling kit, so that offsets, the extra loose change a bit. Pending some hopeful tweaks to 511 and such, I'd much rather not spend those 16lbs of encumbrance on two more boxes with the same treasure result. All in all I think it's an improvement. And I say this with an army of almost exclusively gnomes, so in general I'm more succeptable to encumbrance issues (only my main uses the encumbrance potions or has any WR gear)

Nyxus(?) also said that there are still things in the works with regard to "interesting" loot, if I can find the quote.

[devout bobcat]

My encumbrance is worse because it spikes a lot faster and has already lead to a death.

[primal creek]

You are trying to apply differerent logic to the problem in hindsight. It probably started more benign around something else and the idea that people were making mad money from scarabs came up, so the idea of box reduction also meant that box count solved the problem. Maybe it was less work to change box count frequency(one value) vs manipulating box trap distributions.

Edit: Meaning people sort of went down the rabbit hole of ideas and certain ideas won out because it started to make sense. We already are saying we don't understand specific mechanics changes and as far as I am aware we don't have any logical context behind several changes. Meaning we don't know the context in which it was brought up. The flat reduction of soft cap, is one example, where we don't need that. But the rest of the nuances we don't have details.

2nd Edit: So for those of us who work in software have heard the term "agile" a lot and we all know that when places go from "not agile" to "agile" there are many different iterpretations of this and so when this happens it can also create significant echo chambers if people structure their software development in certain ways. I am not saying that happened here. I am saying that the expressed opinions on these changes could be echoed across several projects I have worked on in software dev where we frequenty hear things like "we don't let customers dictate why we make changes, we have to be able to just do those." They often then will hold up their iphone and say this is something that changes almost daily as an example of why their model is good.

[split hamlet]

I think you have an advantage when it comes to the new heavy boxes by being able to spread out the boxes amongst several characters. If that were not the case, and you were finding the amount of heavy boxes that you found on a single character, do you still think you would prefer the new monster boxes?

Jinsem: I hope it wasn't a case of "less work" but if that truly is the answer, I'd like to hear it so it helps me understand the why.

I'm going to throw up my assumptions for the "why" on a few of the other changes.

Gems: The scale was somewhat standardized, so that higher level, and riskier combat, leads to higher value gems. Uncut diamonds are now worth a lower amount, because they can be found in a lower level range. I saw mention from lower level players that they weren't finding the "nice gems" they used to find, leading me to believe that gem quality now scales with creature level.

[dusky kernel]

How many people are you? You can easily afford to have one or two encumbered members of your posse swinging at 8-10 seconds because there are so many others to protect them. This is not the average user experience

[wintry shard]

I doubt that's what the gms were expecting folks to do when they made the change.

[primal creek]

We likely got the "MVP" of the changes. I am mostly kidding, but the reactions of the players reminds me heavily of what happens to us in the industry after we release MVP. Tons of questions around our logic, dumb decisions that were never thought of because the right people weren't asked or included in the project, "obvious" things end users needed more. button placement movement, more clicks etc. So it just reminds me of that type of deployment.

[crimson pond]

Yes, point noted - although I don't redistribute loot during a hunt and will bow out if any individual is at 30% or more because it's the single greatest risk in an SMR world. But even in an individual character sense I haven't felt on average a major shift. Yes, definitely more spikey encumbrance, but net encumbrance roughly feels the same. Where I would previously have looted 3 boxes anyway, I just get the one. Again, just talking bigger picture across many hunts. I certainly recognize that a singular monster of a box will still be a hunt ender for many, and that has become a little more frequent. But unless most people were previously ending hunts before getting 3 boxes, it seems to me that it should roughly work out pretty close to before.

Edit: Also this 5 minute timer makes conversations so weird lol, so many edits after the fact changing what is being responded to

[devout bobcat]

I'm spiking to heavy / significant fairly often where that was rarely happening in the past. I bail out at moderate encumbrance and try to get to safety as quickly as possible. That's been my experience since these changes were implemented.

[split hamlet]

I value the 5 minute timer, it should be 15 so people can't just prattle on all day long, but...

What measures do you have for dealing with encumbrance? 100lb potions?

[sturdy ridge]

I spread weight reducing services across many containers. Most of them are medium amounts and fit 1-2 old boxes. So all of them are now useless

@primal creek you can set a ring or familiar in the bottom of the ||privy|| at SOS

[primal creek]

I use it all as a halfling, Sk606, 509, 40-60% weight reducers in 200/200/250 capacity, potions and feather charms. But that is because, and I get it I am "choosing this", I like SoS and I like Rift/Scatter. Big boxes there make me encounter the difficult entry mechanics and it now can be a little more annoying to get in or out. IE: Nords reported 200 pound box yesterday or the other day likely would have been something that either ended it or been left because I couldn't have taken it.

[sleek meadow]

Time for FWI access from the birthing sands. Seriously. Also free town portals for all the plat subs come on already!

[crimson pond]

The ranger gets the full gamut - 100lbs potion, WR containers, significant investment in ASC STR and enhancive STR. Beyond that, everyone else always wears 509 and most have at least some investment in ASC STR.

@primal creek You could've picked up a 200lb now!

[primal creek]

@crimson pond I received clarification, that it was 400 pounds. I guess. 🤷

[split hamlet]

I have to sleep now. I will hopefully be able to check back in around ... 8pm when I finally get a break tonight.

[potent orchid]

Can’t you just drag boxes back to town?

[rotund siren]

not always

[sleek meadow]

Hire a giant porter. New pet!

[tropic creek]

New spell - Greater Floating Disk

[warm agate]

That happened to me the first day of the change I didn’t realize I’d picked up 200 lbs of boxes, because in my duster I saw only 3. I was used to holding 6-8 or more. Alas , death is death. Now I’m constantly checking encumbr

[fierce lantern]

I guess you could say... The changes absolutely added to the Weight of the boxes

https://tenor.com/view/barbie-ryan-gosling-glasses-margot-robbie-handsome-gif-13665100648649288173

[fleet jay]

i have a small suggestion--the addition of ingots has resulted in kind of a stealth nerf to disks, since there's one more item per box. My suggestion is to perhaps add two items to the base disk capacity?

[fierce lantern]

on the radar

Counterpoint though... I think disks can likely hold 1 box... I haven't heard about that many items in a box? and that 1 box should be the weight of 2 + boxes previously... the disks' weight reduction is likely more than it was?

[jolly palm]

The hurdle I have with the way boxes have played out... a big part of their goal was aimed at*"Finding a box will be more rewarding"*.

I feel like pretty consistently the feedback is that this missed the mark.

Massive amounts of silver causing encumbrance issues, combined with a serious devaluation of gems, and boxes not only feel less rewarding, but they actually are causing issues.

It could also be that i'm soft cap or 1% capped on my characters, but enhancives appear to be virtually non-existent again too.

[devout bobcat]

I had a single box too heavy to fit in my disk.

[broken vector]

kinda wish I could turn the sanct off in my tent so it wouldn't lessen my resource gain /cringe

[pastel anvil]

Yeah, I thought we were all on the same page that a more rewarding box meant items, but it turns out the only change is increased silvers.

[rotund siren]

the ingots need to be not so heavy. I would have done different levels of ingot at the same weight(s), like, an ingot worth 5-10k is a poorly smelted gold ingot, one worth 10-20k is a [somewhat better] gold ingot, 20-30k, 30-40k, 40-50k, and have them all be like, 2-5 pounds within those ranges.

[jolly palm]

Wooof, I'm sure they stated this somewhere, based on resource gain changes, but did they zero out all the Fast Exp. Absorption Boosts?

I loved those when I needed them. That just made me cringe seeing all my guys at 0.

[unique oyster]

I have 0 of those. I'm not sure where you get them anyway. They are not a login reward as far as I know.

[crimson pond]

You certain it was weight and not item quantity? I don't even know if a giant could lift a 500lb+ box

[fierce lantern]

there's a 2x absorb, but then there's a simucoin xp absorb that counteracts the F2P XP absorb slowdown

[rotund siren]

Yeah, that looks like the f2p version

[crimson pond]

RW sold them at some point, but paid accounts don't ever get them (nor can they buy from simu store)

[remote egret]

holy moly...how heavy did it end up being?

[fierce lantern]

I assume it was meant from an item contents perspective

[fast cipher]

You don't redistribute but you do have X amount of disks to distribute too (non broken too big boxes aside) also. You also hunt an area often that's not known for having boxes at all.

[dusky kernel]

Yes.. just because both auchand and estild have said they get super excited about finding a big box, the reality is that with loot cap smaller, and being forced to be online playing for resource, it is more and more inevitble that people will hit loot cap. So if that 10m is coming one way or another, having to stop and start along the way is not exciting, not rewarding, it's a flat tire along the journey.

[brazen salmon]

A single box prematurely ending your hunt used to be a rare thing, but with these changes it's happening more often. That's just inconvenient, imo. Especially when it's just silver that's weighing it down.

[rotund siren]

Given how the impacts of this change have hit, racially speaking, I would challenge either or both of them to try playing small races for a while.

[primal creek]

Neither supporting nor defending, but I thought Auchand had said it was still his goal and he is aware and he spent a lot of time already working on this. Apologies if I am mis remembering. But it also was stated they wanted to get out what they had and then tweak. So again not defening or supporting the position just I believe it has been spoken to.

[ashen carbon]

i would just like to say that as someone who primarily travels on a motorcycle, a flat tyre definitely adds excitement to my journey.

[jolly palm]

New boost - Urchin Box Runner.... instantly send boxes back to town with an urchin runner.... dodge, dip, duck, dive and....dodge your way back to town little runner!

[devout bobcat]

I do not recall. I was confused and focusing on getting back to town safely, because encumbrance is a big killer.

[dusky kernel]

great minds, @jolly palm (and then of course an EG shop to customize your sherpa/porter)

[ashen carbon]

automatic deposit at the pool, 25% chance urchin and box don't make it. New Bounty, find a kid that got lost helping an adventurer, half value on bounty, but you get the lost box in return.

[jolly palm]

2 birds in one stone - finally gives us the background on the lost kids everywhere!

[boreal bobcat]

Someone posted the other day showing unable to put their box in their empty disk.

[dusk ridge]

If we want to maximize rest time for resource gain, does it make sense to sit at tables instead of nodes now? Then it’ll effectively give more resources?

[mossy forge]

its flat rate, so long as you can 'learn' on the pulse.

[fiery cove]

Yes - off-node (so you'll get more ticks from a given amount of exp). But I'm just going to point out that the fact this question is being asked at all shows that something is off. If you constantly keep exp in your head, you still want to go with on-node to maximize exp.

[fierce lantern]

All of this instead of adding tables to Hinterwilds 🧌

[dusk ridge]

And I agree, it’s off. I spent about 14 hours yesterday keeping my mind full with an exception of maybe 1.5-2 hours. And ended with only 30k resources. Now I’m back to work today, so hoping to maximize what I can get. I’ll find a random corner to sit in 🙂 Also, on one character, I made it through 5x,4x,3x and partially through 2x. It definitely felt defeating.

[shrewd peak]

New idea for boxes: Option to leave boxes in the field, they become "lost" same as gear that's dropped, can go to the Adventure guild and pay a nominal fee to have them recovered.

[mossy forge]

Your box will cost 3,436,234 silver to recover.

[cold zephyr]

Just found an amazing box!
1839 coins, blue wand (1020), box (22)
Total silver value = 2881

NPC locksmith wanted 2317 silver to open it.

So glad that was the first box I pulled out of 60+ kills. It's like I'm back in the pre-loot change days, but I'm finding less loot now! Thankfully I can open the box myself.

[fiery cove]

What was the pool charge?

[mossy forge]

I just detect and vaporize boxes now.

[boreal trench]

Thanks for keeping track of these. Is the listing for the Scripted Items (Animalistic Totem in particular) tied to the silver value of skins after loot cap? I'd be very interested if they can apply the same solution like they did for the skinning bounties to charges for the Animalistic totems.

[knotty copper]

Resources.. Anyway we can fix it so we can at least get our resources for the week? before I I was almost always able to get my 50k for the week at this rate I've barely pulled 5k and it's Tuesday. at this rate I'll have HALF what I normally get for the week? and I've not changed my hunting if anything I've hunted more. Silvers is pulling a little lower but I don't care about that I've never met cap. And I don't usually charge for my resources. Is that being looked at and possibly being adjusted Or what should I do to ensure I am able to pull at least that each week It makes me feel like I've at least accomplished my goal for the week.....

[fiery cove]

You need to be actively logged in with experience in your head for about 10% of the week. (15-16 hours)

[cold zephyr]

always seems to be half of what the NPC locksmiths charge, so would have been 1158

[blazing violet]

You are not alone. I think everyone is in this boat and waiting to see what adjustments get made.

[unique oyster]

There is a very good chance all of this will widen the gap between casual and hardcore players. Even if the loot amount is lower, I have no doubt some hardcore players will easily hit the lootcap. This might end up having the opposite effect than the GMs intended.

[ashen carbon]

I've gone through almost the entirety of the new Lumnis bonuses, have just over 1k left on my 2x, and only makde 35k resources on my main. @fiery cove maybe 2 hunts worth total. I spent most of Saturday and Sunday on this character

[knotty copper]

I like the quality of the boxes. They seem beefier. But it's like getting all the loot I was picking up all in one little package, instead of spread out over the hunt. I'll use pickers as they are available or the cue if im in a rush to get them out of my hands. It's upsetting me more that friends are upset over the majority of the changes than the changes themselves.

[fiery cove]

How much of that was offline absorbed? That's the issue right now.

[boreal bobcat]

New Lumnis is only 29,200 exp
So if you got over 30k seems right.
Highly dependent on absorb rate though of course. If you're absorbing 30 exp per pulse, should be at 48k resources.
Would be like a 40 exp per pulse to get 36,500 over that 29,200 exp.

[remote egret]

lol. It has been a fun journey re-learning what traps you can and can't 125 boxes with and keep the treasure/not get blasted by the cloud

[normal drum]

I had the same experience. I played more on Monday than I have in a long time. I won’t max resources this week.

[devout bobcat]

Is it actually worthwhile to 125 boxes? It cuts your silver valuation in half and incinerates any paper loot like scrolls, doesn't it? So which is cheaper? Half the silver value or 1/3 of the entire value?

[blazing violet]

There's also the fact that making things go boom is often fun and/or satisfying.

[boreal bobcat]

Well do we know if it halves ingot value?
I guess half of 5500 is still the lockpick fee 😁

[fierce lantern]

If you boom a chest with silvers and gold... it should make an electrum ingot!

That's... not necessarily how it currently works... just saying

[remote egret]

The ingot appears to be unaffected (doesn't change from ingot to anything else) Just the silvers to slab of silver is reduction in value. Which of course you can just get changed into GOLD thanks to clerics

[devout bobcat]

Wait what is this about turning silver slabs into gold?

[blazing violet]

https://gswiki.play.net/Silver_to_Gold

[finite trench]

the third most useless 325 ability

[remote egret]

Holy hand grenade being my favorite! Followed by nexus, followed by silver to gold followed by spell imbedding followed by chrism

[boreal bobcat]

doesn't it costs a gem, so is the cost worth the return? Especially with gems spawning lower base value!?

Hmm, it actually seems more based on quality than value... have to do some testing, can I purify that 50 silver gem to magnificent and use it for minimal cost!? Orb gems aren't low value eh,

[remote egret]

I assume pearls are all still orbs...and they ARE low value

[blazing violet]

looks like the value of the orb gem impacts the number of silver-to-gold charges; tiny pearls might actually be useful for that. They're not very useful for holding spells because they hold very little mana, that's one reason why it's better for clerics to imbed ranger rods instead of gems.

[cold zephyr]

Here's my total of the last 8 boxes I've found and opened across the last half a dozen hunts. It also shows the total amount of silver I would have lost if I had used the NPC locksmith or the pool (not including a tip).

edit Just to clarify, the total silver is for selling everything in the box, including the box itself.

[warm agate]

It's ironic it's the silver weighting adventurers down, not some glaes armor. I also submit it's not respectful of player's time especially casual players time.

[remote egret]

It has always been silver weighing adventurers down though...I don't understand the argument.

[simple forge]

Everyone complaining about encumbrance but I can't even find enough boxes to get encumbered

[boreal bobcat]

Yeah as much as I hate the increase of silvers which do not meet the stated goal of making things in boxes more interesting, it is a necessary evil for encumbrance, as it's static weight to value.

[warm agate]

Unsure, I'm still finding them but I didn't play much earlier this month.

[frozen tusk]

Gotta make a bigger problem to justify coin hands coming to HESS upcoming DR to sell for 1,000,000 BS.

Relieve Burden (314) is Tier 5 already. 500k BS for a SM item or SK Tattoo.

[strong lake]

Ingot Hands RSN

[rough vault]

The weight of a silver slab should be the same as the source coins, even if the value is less. I don't believe that is true.

[remote egret]

You have to add the weight of electricity to the slab though

[frozen tusk]

Everyone just needs to hunt Moonsedge which is the poorest ASC hunting ground. Stretch them gains.

[lunar beacon]

You should be able to put one of those ingots in a sock and use it as a OHB

[rough vault]

Reim is probably two hours of fried hunting for 60k loot in most instances now.

[brazen salmon]

SO, based on like 3 months of my cleric hunting.... The villages in HW are poorer than ME.

[frosty sail]

dang. should i just stay at the sanctum

[boreal bobcat]

Indeed.

[light ginkgo]

This entire change seems ill-considered. Why does it matter if there is a lot of silver in the game. Some of us don't really have any and now it will be even harder for us to get it, and this makes it especially difficult for the caual players.

In addition, are there even any PLAYERS on the dev team? Why would you break so many mechanics with such an ill-considered update if you actually know how the game works in regards to chrism, orb recharging, etc.

This change needs to be rolled back and abandoned. There are better ways to penalize players with a lot of silver then just to blanket us with a bunch of changes that don't actually help the situation.

I've already canceled my accounts and am taking the thousands of dollars a year I have put into this game and doing something else with it. Player happiness should be the main goal of the dev team, if they want to keep their cashflow coming in.

[finite trench]

Gemstone hunting was fairly explosive for the outer HW population

[cold zephyr]

Always the "grass is greener on the other side" mentality.

As for GMs telling us that there is "too much" silver in the lands and not enough to spend it on, they have no one but their selves to blame for that. Look at the events in the past, based on silvers to buy stuff in game and required a ticket (real money) to attend. You pay a fee to enter, spend silvers you earned in game for in game items. Now it's alt currencies that are based on real money and silvers aren't used to buy things.

So, yeah, less place to spend silvers.

[lunar beacon]

Consider an alternative would be pricing the silver cost for the festival stuff to drain silvers from that 5% but that would end up making even plain vanilla 4x gear out of reach of casual players.

[vital badge]

I think we will have to see how the changes work out to know the impact to the bottom line for silver generation. It's an ongoing issue that plagues all MMO models at some point in their lifespan. I know there were conversations about it 20 years ago at least as it pertained to GS. WoW isn't really a great example of handling inflation well.

[fierce lantern]

The WOW model would have made every box drop 5m silver... and then we'd start to see prices in the trillions.
In the TERA Model, they'd put failure rates of all services up to 90%, and you'd have a 1% chance of success, with 1m silvers per attempt to upgrade your gear.

[remote egret]

All I know now is...I have a dedicated million silvers on a few characters I can get real value from each month!

[lunar beacon]

Yeah, the in-game GS economy got warped Beyond Thunderdome due to silver glut decades ago

[brazen salmon]

Silver glut or alternative currency bombardment?

[tropic creek]

Now let's do the Black Desert model.
Tier 1 is 90% success rate, exponentially getting harder until Tier 5 is a 0.1% success rate unless you drop real money on Crons.
Oh, and failure causes it to revert to the previous tier.

[shrewd peak]

I'd still like some responses from upper management as to some kind of firm timeline to correct these issues, particularly the resource gain nerf.

[fierce lantern]

we'll can add a FFXIV model on top of it, and you'll need to get a new weapon with a base enchant of 11x, and upgrade it to 20x, making everything before it comparatively worthless.

[wispy forum]

+1 for a rollback - too many changes all at once into such a complex and sensitive system compound and confound any meaningful data and progress - isolate the changes

could have probably literally just started with lowering the loot cap and gathered data from there

[vital badge]

I know there was discussion prior to alternate currency existing, as it predated the store.

[lunar beacon]

Silver glut, it was happening before GSIV was a twinkle in a dev's eye and alt currency was ever even in the picture

[normal drum]

I don’t think they should rollback at this point — but I do think changes in the future should follow a very different model.

I’m fine with waiting to see how they propose “fixes” in this case.

But I’m very hopeful that they swing the pendulum back hard in the other direction for design processes by discussing and including opportunity for player feedback and tests long before implementation.

[finite trench]

the important point to remember in terms of soft currency inflation is as long as players are still transacting between themselves in the currency it is retaining value

[rough vault]

The better draconian fix would have been to immediately prohibit any multiaccounting hunting script. A loot cap slows and reduces variance in silver gain temporarily, but a single account player can not compete with someone playing 10+ in a coordinated machine of decimation. In fishing, trawlers are regulated differently because they invariably turn the ocean into a desert. I know no one has the courage to actually do this, but multiaccounting has always been the root cause of problems in this game, and it is simply too unbalancing and efficient to accommodate and balance with those playing single accounts 10 hours a week. Money talks and multiaccounters always win.

[shrewd peak]

I don't think they need to do a full rollback, just adjusting the resource gain back to where it was by taking an average rate over a 3x,2x,1x lumnis period would work, then spend the next two years discussing why it needs to be lower. What I can't deal with is having that extended discussion now with the rates as low as they are, there's going to be way more cancellations if this is not fixed soon.

[finite trench]

This is the correct answer and the only thing that will straighten things out but sadly they’ve made really clear that they will never do this

[fierce lantern]

We just need to develop an authority 0 anti-cheat along with the simutronics game entry to determine multi-boxing hunting scripts!

[rotund siren]

Yep. The only things I can honestly see working are things that Simu has already taken off the table. Item sinks (breakage). IG silver sinks that have been systematically removed (locker fees, bank note fees, locksmith pool, etc.). Policy changes and/or enforcing policies that are already there wrt MA group hunting. Proliferation of $$ alternate currencies being the major purchasing power for the majority of mechanically useful stuff.

[wispy forum]

but who are you competing with and to what end? - why does everyone need to be making 50m silvers a month versus 10m, what does 50m silvers allow you to do that 10m does not and how does it help you achieve your goals in the game

the things like being able to compete at auctions and any system priced at top earner silver drain prices are really the only reasons i can think of; raffle competitiveness is dominated by ticket volume, not cost; and gear is all sold for event currency from simu

the secondary market accepting silvers is stood up by what silvers allow players to do and custom - we could easily just be selling our items and services to one another for bloodscrip - the only thing that keeps silvers valueable and the exclusive offerings tied only to that currency, hence why silver values drop outside of auction windows

[boreal bobcat]

Would be interesting to see what would happen to the game in that event. 50 players? Gonna get shut down like Platinum?

[vital badge]

they removed the incidental charges because they weren't a significant impact on the sheer mass of silvers generated and created a barrier to entry/hassle that wasn't worth keeping them around. We literally just got a silver sink in the form of the locksmithing pool, so it wasn't taken off the table. Policy just got overhauled and teeth added with more updated language. Giving people the ability to choose to sink 250k silvers a week into Lumnis per character will be a sizeable silver sink.

[wispy forum]

to be clear - i'm pro rollback strictly because i'm pro scientific method and incremental adjustments, not because i think this can't be fixed

[chilly berry]

I haven't noticed a difference in on-node exp absorption with full hands or empty hands. Has that been gone a long time? Or was that a part of this change?

[normal drum]

They need to backdoor in breakage.

[vital badge]

I don't think that's been a thing for a while, if it ever was.

[finite trench]

that got changed a few years ago because, and this is true, it slightly advantaged UAC

[boreal bobcat]

Those guys are the worst.

[finite trench]

in fairness UACPKS was already incredibly strong without also getting 3% more experience absorption

[rough vault]

When players first started selling items and services and characters in game for dollars on third party platforms, staff spent a lot of effort trying to quell that behavior. Ultimately it was decided to wait on the resolution of lawsuits from bigger games to see if the I.R.S. would force the game to somehow track the transfer of constructive value and report the sale. This hesitation allowed the black market to flourish and as computers became more powerful and the ability to make huge amounts of profit trading items, the perfect incentive for multiaccounting farms became viable. I agree the horse is out of the barn and never going back in, but if we can't undo the past and eliminate multiaccounting, the next best draconian solution is to let each character hunt for treasure 15 hours a week. You can still hunt for fun and for experience thereafter but after 15 hours of loot, you are not making a silver.

[wispy forum]

isn't that basically the loot cap?

[fierce lantern]

I heard that they're the reason that there's so much boxing going on nowadays.

[boreal bobcat]

It's loot cap with one huge difference. It incentivizes those who can purify, skin, hunt nonstop, ect.

I guess your intent with it was more to prevent MA groups though? Since only one of their how ever many can loot a creature at a time losing out on their 15 hours of treasure. Just groups in general really as they always gets caught up in the MA is bad crowd.

[fierce lantern]

Another way 'around' the loot cap was just parking yourself (or an alt) and working on the locksmith pool, because those tips are player to player transfers, not net new generation

[edgy hollow]

primary reason i stopped blaying BDO

[vital badge]

we could go the path of exiles route, CURRENCY EVERYWHERE!

@tawny sierra and?

@fierce lantern they already know, I've told them my crazy ideas for years. It won't come as a shock to anyone.

[fierce lantern]

Every town gets their own currency, make exchange booths meaningful again!

Thanks for the idea Vorlash. I'll make sure to put your name everywhere I can

[tawny sierra]

they reset the economy every 6 months tho.

@vital badge lol. you want to grind a new character very 6 months?

[boreal bobcat]

Yes, Gemstone should have seasons! Who can make it to 100 in the 3 month window first!?

[fierce lantern]

Now that they've distilled plat folks into papers to absorb into prime vessels. It's likely doable!

[slate bluff]

Just have GS4 be the core game and GS5:Seasons introduce a new mechanic every 3 months plus unique loot that can be brought back to core after the season ends.... exactly like POE
Two separate instances that get merged at the end of every season

[vital badge]

Was plat Season 1 then?

[wintry shard]

This is interesting. It always felt to me like I was competing against bots or AI back in the day when I'd try selling stuff for profit in eve online and wow. I guess there were groups of computer nerds raking in money somehow.

[boreal bobcat]

Because you were! They had their auction house bots! At least wow, I never got into that space spreadsheet game.

[mental compass]

I don't think we realize how big a Hit the gem value reduction is. I'm at about 30% of income per day in gems.

[fierce lantern]

it's being evaluated

many new hooks, much more data, more levers are able to be pulled, etc

[potent orchid]

200lb gems inbound

[remote egret]

You know what they SHOULD do...roll all the changes people DON'T like into just the unsupported platinum servers...let people who pay the increased $$ move their characters there and live happily ever after. The rest of us will enjoy the modern era.

Also...yeah. Did Auchand (or anyone) ever say they needed to get rid of the fact that lower level characters could make quite a bit of money compared to capped players hunting in loot pressured areas or was that just an unintended consequence of the much needed gem reworking that will make it easier to do stuff with behind the scenes in the uncertain future?

[chilly berry]

Isn’t that just shattered?

Legit though I would support seasons.

Edit:

or like the legendary thing like in Skyrim.

But you keep all your experience and stuff and get to level up again against mobs that are scaled up.

[boreal bobcat]

There's no resets!
I don't think I honestly would. I don't need more things to be degenerate about I'm trying to spend less time.

[mental compass]

Overall Its a large decrease in income. Wish they had done this incrementially to monitor and adjust rather then hacking and slashing.

Its a real struggle not to be critical after running 20-25 man teams dealing with things somewhat similar to this and understanding the effects. This is why we always did two rounds of Beta, and then 1 round of user testing.

[chilly berry]

FirstTime.gif

[slate bluff]

They now make interesting analytical inferences over the last week..... since we established the new lootcap, silver generation is down 91.2%..... MISSION SUCCESS

[normal drum]

Curious if active play time across all characters is up or down.

[boreal bobcat]

There's always more buzz around changes I think. Need to see how it averages out over the week or two.

[mental compass]

I would have never discussed Lootcap. I would have rathered done something like this

Loot generation first million (150% bonus)
Loot generation 2nd thru 5th million (125% bonus)
Loot generation 6-10 (100% standard loot)
Loot generation 11-15 (75%)
Loot Generation 16-25 (50%)
Loot generation 26+ 25%

That way the hard core players can continue to play and get some sort of enjoyment.

Event loot (duskruin) Excluded from the Loot tables. I Would want as much income generated from this as possible. IF someone makes 100million silvers, and then sells that currency, then turns around and buys another 500 entries its more money to the coffers to pay for future development and the players get to enjoy the process.

Rogue pool

• % reduced to 20% taken 1/3 goes tothe rogue, tips would be eliminated.

• I can always increase it later.

Clerics

• remove Chrism, make spirit use an option to help the person recover ((reduces game item tracking and overhead))

Wizards

• remove Gems use spirit loss per charge or something.

Scrolls

• everyone gets a book they can store them in. (reduces game item tracking and overhead)

[finite trench]

honestly, solutions that don't have a hard lootcap at some point aren't really grappling with the way the hardcore play this game

[lunar beacon]

I'd say it's going to take at least a few months to get usable info from the changes

[slate bluff]

New MA game plan is week 1 farm 7.5mil, week 2 farm 7.5mil, week 3 & 4 pickpocket 500-750k per day

[devout island]

if you really want to stop MA then ban LICH

[vital badge]

if you think that would put a dent in MA, you are in for a deeply disappointing time.

There was automation in the game long before lich was a thing.

[mental compass]

If there wasn't MA the game would be probably 1/2 as big income wise, what do you think that would do to the game?

[finite trench]

I think probably the "this ability doesn't work now due to gem/box changes" stuff will get addressed pretty quickly. it's a little unfortunate to patch that stuff after breaking it but, you know, at least there's responsiveness

[rough vault]

Could also rethink the cost of the new lumnis donation to 25% of loot for the week with a minimum 250k if capped.

[brazen salmon]

LOL banning lich would absolutely decimate the game.

People aren't going back to printing out maps in 2026.

[devout island]

but it would fix many of the issues

lich was the best thing to come to GS and also the worst

[vital badge]

something else would take it's place, but it would be inconvenient for a while.

[boreal bobcat]

I don't think banning lich would do anything. Especially in a day of LLM's.

[lunar beacon]

People were successfully running MA operations far before lich was around

[tawny sierra]

going bankrupt would be inconvenient

[unique oyster]

Lich itself is a band-aid to A LOT of other problems the other clients do not address. I have no idea how I would play on just Wryath.

[mental compass]

Lich Honestly extended the life of the game.

When was the last time anyone walked to icemule from the landing, Or walked to the rift?

Back in the day I could run to IMT with my eyes closed, I can still run it upto the glaicer though!

[cold zephyr]

Usually when I start a new character and get them to level 20, depending on their skills (able to skin and any trading) I could usually build up 3-4mil in silvers over those 20 levels. Usually it takes me 3-4 weeks (utilizing the advantage of lumnis) to hit level 20, I'm curious as to how little much in silvers I would get now with the new changes......I'm curious, but not really interested in starting a new character now.

[brazen salmon]

A solution that would have more than half your population quitting isn't a feasible solution.

It's also just as heavy-handed as these changes, you're trying to target MA but also hurting the solo folks who use LICH for the basic stuff it provides.

[crimson pond]

To nitpick a bit on terminology, because there's a fair bit of conflation going on - Lich isn't the same as Automation, nor does MA always equate to farming/botting behavior.

[vital badge]

the same way we played the game for 15 years before lich became a thing.

[boreal bobcat]

But with all our new health problems.

[fierce lantern]

I'm an MA'er using triggers on macro keys to submit input across multiple characters at once, outside of lich and stuff, and I bind the windows of characters to specific function keys so I can swap them without needing to Alt tab a variable number of times. I also wrote my own fletching WFE script forever ago, I could always write a few more of those, because I'm clearly a WFE scripting guru

[devout island]

youre not alone

[brazen salmon]

Your solution makes a whole lot more sense now. 👍

[fierce lantern]

I went through so many G15 keyboards... I miss that... moved onto G510s

[boreal bobcat]

Ah yes the wow strategy. Man wasn't it glorious having 5 guys in running around slaying stuff in sync.

[vital badge]

5 shadow bolts was a thing of beauty

[devout island]

only 5? i've seen a lot more than 5.

[tender scarab]

So I know the gem bounty bounty points issue was fixed, but are the silver payouts of those bounties supposed to be much lower than they were before all the recent changes? Because they are.

Edit: To be clear, I'm talking about when you turn in the bounty. For example, snowblind diamonds were definitely at four digits of silver per diamond requested before (probably 1250 silver each like uncut diamonds) and now they're definitely at three digits. I'll get a more concrete example next time I finish a gem bounty.

[granite tartan]

One thing banning Lich would also fix is Simu’s need to keep the lights on because GS would die quickly without Lich. It’s kept the game alive for the past 20 or so years more than anything else has

[unique oyster]

Sounds about right. Selling gems now makes me feel sad. 2k for an uncut emerald? 🙁

[remote egret]

Also - people can MA but not run their characters together or simultaneously. I like to keep a character running while one is resting.

[potent orchid]

I hate the "i'd quit" posts, but without Lich I would not be here.

[dusky kernel]

Cashlonae got to level 5 in like 3 hours lol.. 5x lumnis at low levels is hilariously potent

[south trail]

THIS. "That way the hard core players can continue to play and get some sort of enjoyment." I never thought of myself as a hardcore player. Think I'll put that on my CV.

[strong lake]

I would absolutely continue on and thrive without Lich. I would enjoy my empty game, my carpaltunnel, and... wait... it'd be just like Platinum was. Time truly is a flat circle.

[fast cipher]

And look where that got you

[fierce lantern]

It's more of a Jeremy Bearimy timeline.

[split timber]

"Loot goes to 1%"

Instructions unclear, killing 100x as many monsters now. Since there's no loot to process, might as well.

[old crystal]

If I were to pick just one thing to revert, it'd be the acquiring resources change. the rest, while annoying, aren't as bad at least.

[fiery cove]

This is kind of the problem in that it feels like a very orthogonal change which muddies the waters and gives people too many different things to have to consider.

[vital badge]

needs more ore doubling mechanics imo

[dusky kernel]

I predict people will just do without player services, rather than pay more for them; and really hurt anything that isnt enchanting or sanct

[potent orchid]

on the plus side here, my boxes are getting opened almost instantaneously at the pool.

[vital badge]

that's what I've been doing all along, was that not what I was supposed to be doing?

[old crystal]

or barter but really, I'd think most folks have most of their services done minus recharge

you can always buy the enchant. Ranger Trinkets are their own thing as is Rogue Training, Blood Stone and Paladin banner. But I'll agree on Holy Fire and Ensorcel not transferring. Unlocking the loresong on the equipment isn't that difficult either. WPS gets added by the WPS merchant / warrior on occation too so there's that too (and Sadie)

[wintry shard]

I never had a problem with getting boxes opened and I'm not even a great tipper. And I pushed through a lot of boxes.

[blazing violet]

Services are never done when you're buying new equipment that gets released.

[south trail]

That's gonna be a relief for rogues.

[dusky kernel]

well apparently too many players were getting player services, so much so that resources had to be curbed, there's no data shared or discussion had to back this up so just trust me, so it seems like yes in fact you are doing it wrong (but now you've come back into fashion)

[finite trench]

I have deep skepticism that the player service market is efficient tbh, especially after bard luck

[potent orchid]

I was having issues pre-change until I bumped up to 500+. Getting eaten up at 1 silver now, going to see if I can offer negative.

[chilly tulip]

I think the charge based services are kind of cooked. People already didn’t like charges

[finite trench]

the charge based services are clearly the best though ||except covert arts|| so I believe eventually they will come back

[tawny sierra]

I didn’t mind the charges too much before the changes when I could feasibly afford them

[bright pasture]

i should be able to take my monk tattoo off and put it back on

[cinder storm]

You can always REMOVE your tattoo, but that comes with additional risks.

[potent orchid]

INVENTORY ENHANCIVE OFF

[simple forge]

If I ever see your character I'm going to teach you covert arts against your will. It's not like I was going to sell it for anything

[normal drum]

The way it should work, is that resources (grit, ensorcell, enchant, and sanct) on crumbly/breakable items should not require potions or cost any silvers, and should cost a tiny fraction of what it would cost for a non-breakable weapon/armor (and there should be reduced item difficulty modifiers on temporary items).

This dovetails perfectly with introducing interesting breakable/crumbly box found items to fix the current loot woes, that outpace existing materials and scripts, making them better than existing end game items, and ushering in a backdoor period of breakage for end game content, thereby saving the game.

[shrewd peak]

Putting player services on my own gear/alts was the primary thing keeping my attention in the game. It'd easily take me a year to add a full +35/T6/S6 plus some padding to a piece of armor. How taking a year is somehow unbalancing is beyond me. I don't have the RL years left in me to complete anything at present time given the current accrual rates.

[bright pasture]

doesn't really work when you want to take the tattoo off after every hunt. just burns through the uses too fast, imo.

[blazing violet]

I'm a bit confused as to why you think breakage would save the game. I certainly wouldn't devote any kind of resource towards something I wouldn't be able to keep forever.

[old crystal]

that would kill the game if anything. the amount of $$$ spent in simustore just for item to break forever would be off the charts. edit: guess we misunderstood each other then since you're saying temp items to have breakage

if breakage was to be a thing on everything though, a million questions come to mind but the first would be that would mean Master Forging Smiths could fix them. But there's potential flaws in there and it depends on the code if you were tie their skill of what they are able to forge into what they can fix and even then there's Armor that we can't create to this date. A lot would have to do with mechanics. Some things, like katanas, are also not in a glyph and the concern would be if a Master Smith of both OHE and THW could still fix it or not.

Personally, I'm hoping if they do revamp forging some that they'd still give a way to make existing items into "perfect" without spending a ton of a money at DR for since if I recall correctly it's just an extra 10 damage. but that's me

[normal drum]

No one is suggesting breakage of paid items - I was specifically suggesting breakage for items from boxes, that are better than existing items.

[unique oyster]

If breakage was added, I would start my new life as a unarmed, armorless, gearless hobo beating up monsters. Anything I break would be fixable by an empath. Jokes aside, I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of people followed that route to avoid item loss.

[tropic creek]

I think it was regarding introducing temp items that can rival some of the paid items and will only be around for a short time due to their breakage rates.
You get to play with a cool toy and maybe prompts someone to buy the similar permanent item.

[blazing violet]

That would be better, but I still wouldn't spend any resource at all on anything like that.

[old cedar]

Breakage doesn't necessarily have to mean permanent destruction of an item. Pretty sure the last iteration of discussion on it was more of a maintenence/upkeep fee. (I'm not expressing support for the idea, just saying)

[bright pasture]

i think breakage is fine as long as it's just upkeep and not catastrophic. or, alternatively, just have it give a temporary boost in effectiveness like an extra CER of weighting/padding.

i think the former is just a tedious tax - but that is what this was all about, after all

does anyone have the old messaging where it would say "Your vultite shield would have broken" blahblah during the breakage testing?

[dry sedge]

Ooh we have the scroll book. It's on sale at tomeward bound at RW. One of my favorite additions last year

[tawny sierra]

since were just wishcasting now, someone mentioned a while ago an item slots mechanic that can add temporary buffs to existing gear would also be cool.

[mental compass]

It should be larger, and much easier to get. It saves space, resources and helps congestion. I just put another bag of 100 scrolls with must haves (1750, 215, 211, 1209, 1119, 1109, 310, 219 etc)

[finite trench]

they literally implemented a whole new verb to prevent you from doing this (ps I CAN SEE YOUR POSTS)

[normal drum]

I think you might, depending on the cost to value ratio.

You’re telling me at 500 grit per service you wouldn’t be willing to take a weapon to 20 CER?

Or give something sanct, if it only took 10k to S6 it? Even if it let you take on (new cooler) end game content? (E.g. a wyrm bane short sword).

It’s just a matter of getting the levers right.

People that love their existing game: nothing changes. But, if you want to try cool new stuff… here’s the way.

[blazing violet]

I'm only one person. I have no idea what other people would do, there's probably plenty of people who would use stuff like that. But that's correct, I wouldn't be interested. I already don't like the current end game content, so items customized to target new hard zones have no appeal.

[potent orchid]

breakage and droppage seem like perfectly acceptable game mechanics to roll out on Platinum

[bright pasture]

i think the primary thing that you could release with catastrophic breakage is players

i mean, even when they released the breakage test, it was already comically late - so everyone's gear had terrible breakage numbers and it completely upended the economy

[old crystal]

when it happened many years ago, it was done incorrectly and many ppl complained and it rolled back but it's not like you can't do it correctly. The main thing is to ensure we can keep our items that we spent $$$ on via Simustore. Can it break? Sure. But let us be able to fix it / reforge it and it doesn't break forever.

You could have an npc at the local forge and treat it like the locksmith pool

[finite trench]

platinum already got broken and dropped!

[zenith meadow]

instead of breakage just make characters pay health insurance

[devout island]

droppage was around when I first started back in the 90s. It was fun trying to get weapons/shields back.

if forging was working, you could fix weapons when they broke

[old cedar]

I doubt the three people left there would bother saying anything....

[potent orchid]

https://tenor.com/view/weekend-friends-haha-lol-lol-no-gif-15720646346140744591

[wary nebula]

Breakage exists in DragonRealms and it's not bad. Actually I always found it a nuscence and didn't really "add" anything to the game. Nothing permanently breaks. If it gets to the point of destroyed then it doesn't provide any benefits until it's fixed.

[slate bluff]

Maybe they can make returner script a 400k BS flourish... or a self repairing material.

[old crystal]

interesting. how does it get it fixed? Is there a Forging system there and their Forge Masters fix it or it strictly an NPC?

You have to define pay items. Some people buy stuff to add to their Forge Made item (for example). Does that make it a pay item?

[normal drum]

I wouldn’t touch people’s pay items. They exist exactly as is.

I would introduce new items via the treasure system and make them better than existing pay weapons.

[brazen salmon]

I'm not entirely sure what benefit to discussing the changes breakage and droppage are. They're kinda moot points here and not something Simu is going to actively implement.

That's even less reasonable than banning lich.

[full flare]

you basically take it to a repair shop, or if you are a smith of some description you can fix it yourself.. they also have mtx items that fix it for you as well. I will add that it is largely just a pain in the butt process with no real value, as it is just a system that people have had to mitigate through scripts.

[tawny sierra]

Wouldnt that eat into the bottom line of their biggest revenue generator?

[bright pasture]

i think the fanciest weapon i had in DR was a player-made weapon from the heavily-monopolized forging system. it was not a big deal to lose.

no idea what it's like now 25 years later

[blazing violet]

Not if all of those shiny new breakable toys are available or improved via microtransactions.

[finite trench]

it's still this although they did add paid materials that make your weapon stats even better, also you can buy player-made flares

[simple forge]

The new pickpocketing is the unwilling application of covert arts, forcing you to find recharges

[wary nebula]

Brulgamin hit it, but in more detail there are NPC forges in towns you take your armor/weapon to and pay a fee and he gives you a ticket to come back and pick-up your item after the time listed to fix it. Then many years back they released their version of artisan skills of which weaponsmithing/armorsmithing is a discipline and those two artisans can fix as well

[lunar beacon]

If the forging system was heavily monopolized it sounds like there were more serious issues than breakage

[normal drum]

Good question… maybe… but also, I think it could be done thoughtfully and balanced…

and, either way, DR item power creep has been a significant issue over time as well…

at some point, people stop buying those items too… we may be nearing that point.

I’m not going to buy a new end game longbow, I’ve got mine.

[timber kraken]

Given the current implementation of silver gen, the overall pool of silvers is going to be shrinking for the foreseeable future.

Not sure we need another silver drain like breakage.

But as long as it’s just loss of item functionality vs permanent destruction, I wouldn’t care.

[dusk ridge]

I did a little testing for resources across 5 characters (all capped in HW). Frying and resting in a Node gives 1380 on average. A non-node gives 1720. Then saturated in a non-node gave 2400. Saturated in node is 2080. If you’re going after resources, definitely stay clear of nodes.

I’ll add this is basically for when I have to work. I can fry quickly then just let it rest a while.

[full flare]

The forging system is DragonRealms still in there, but has been largely left to rot in favour of MTX. Can't have players forging nice things that are better than what you can get for mtx bucks.

[old crystal]

that doesn't sound as bad. And it gives something to do between hunts. I guess the question is how often do things "break" to where you NEED to fix it?

one thing i dont like is that durability doesn't mean anything and sadly adamantine metal is the most effected by that (dont get me wrong i still think it's a cool metal though i dont have any).

I still ike the theory of if this became a thing then to have a Forging NPC and let forge folks work the pool to fix items or rush it/pay NPC to get it fixed if they don't want to wait as a silver drain/maintence assuming that you don't need to do it too often. I guess the question is how many hunts = You must repair this?

[bright pasture]

the Dragonrealms forging system was a lot like the old Ranger resists system - no one cared about buying anything except from the highest skill-tiered players - and there were no fixskills. so a few players just raked in every order.

[blazing violet]

It would be annoying, but it wouldn't be a killer unless the system was designed to make your item inoperable randomly, potentially giving out on you in the middle of combat. I could see some people calling that a challenge, but I would hate it.

[normal drum]

I think people buying into the concept of their existing pay weapons breaking or needing repair is just too big of a hill to climb… already have people in here getting riled up at just the concept. Too many historical roots there.

Which is why I’d only add it to new treasure found super items. And they would probably be crumbly, and not repairable.

Anyway, that’s my proposal.

[full flare]

It largely depends on the item. Durability is largely determined by the material for which it is made and how often it gets hits/used. Some things break faster than others.

The system in and of itself is fine. It's really just there to drain in game currency. For the population who has been around forever, it's a nothing burger. For a new player, it just feels bad.

[wispy forum]

i also wouldnt be interested - temporary items dont interest me in this game - that's why i pay so much irl money at DRs, i like the awesome cool stuff i get to keep forever

[old crystal]

yeah... that would be doing it incorrectly. I rather be at some sort of early warning system so you can plan in advance. Something like how the monk tattoo works or even rogue service though I wish there some sort of bold yellow messaging to say "hey, you might want to get this recharged soon!"

[normal drum]

And I wouldn’t take that away from you… all your gear and things would continue to work exactly as usual.

but also, I suspect you might be drawn to the new awesome creative hunting ground, town, and quest system that Auchand and Nyxus are going to design and implement that needs the new stuff… because it is that awesome.

But if not, that’s okay too, because the game continues to exist exactly as is if not interested.

[tawny sierra]

it would feel bad to have invested time and money into gear that is essentially a backup if your between broken gear. I would want something closer to temporary item buffs. Can find them from loot and also add a gambling mechanic to it so that the whales can drain their silver chasing the dragon.

[pastel pewter]

I know it's been said, but the anemic resource gains are really slow going. 50 resources per pulse, one pulse per minute on average... is it really that bad? If so, that's seems really out of line with what most people's expecatations would be for a game. I understand the goal, but your fishing trawler is killing dolphins along with the tuna.

[bright pasture]

temporary breakage in a Quest instance could be interesting/fun. unless you end up essentially required to do it on a regular basis

[blazing violet]

I could get behind an item buff that would be temporary, kind of like the oils that used to get sold in DR. It's easier to win hearts and minds with positives than it is with negatives.

[wispy forum]

what about adding aspiration rewards/value at the end of insane silver prices - not entirely sure what i would offer yet exactly....

a personal property
custom title
ideally noy combat power, but if we needed to try something, a very very very small bonus of some kind(+1 CS/AS or something)

for some insane price - i'm talking like 1 trillion silvers

[mental compass]

Ugh. This the reason I never hunted over in the area with creatures that could steal your pins. Nothing like DB items walking off while your sitting there dead.

[timber kraken]

One thing I know for certain - there is no way in HECK the GMs are going to have any interest implementing something as controversial as breakage for the foreseeable future. I suspect they are exhausted enough as it is from these changes!

[normal drum]

Nice idea!

But, to solve the existing problems, I would make those only applicable to crumbly box found items. 🙂

Also, Idias, I wasn’t suggesting implementing breakage… but that shows how important messaging is… I was suggesting making interesting crumbly box found treasure.

[old crystal]

hmm. maybe then give a small chance for it to become a better quality (if needed repairs) to go up a tier? Non forged pieces then have a small chance to become "normal" forged at first all the way up and it would largely depend on the Smith's skill? Maybe that could fit the bill if the concern is the pieces bought off the shelf at DR? Of course, I'd prioritize my katana and armor before I work on somebody else's heh. Hmm. Maybe put a limit on how many times a day a Master Forger can fix an item. Of course I state Master, but what if the lower skilled ones can do it and they have a chance to to get an extra rank in their artisan skill but only the Master Smith of that weapon type have that rare chance to improve the quality and maybe even get that item a once every so often chance for it to improve? I dunno where the balance is or if it'd even be considered but it's an idea

[slate bluff]

GMs definitely acknowledged that they know big changes like this come with days or weeks worth of rabble rousing so I dont think that is nearly as bad as say bard changes

[sleek meadow]

if they really really want money silver or otherwise out of me they need to add Voln Script certs to HESS. Just saying that would break my resolve to not spend another dime on events this year. Yep thats what it would take (obviously I have a low bar)

[wintry shard]

I had always hoped for a voln weapon script to eventually come out and synergize with voln armor.

[blazing violet]

This would make me replace an end game weapon for sure. Or maybe dabble off an expensive script. I'd have to think pretty hard about which I'd rather do if resources stay this hard to generate.

[old crystal]

society sets that give set bonuses sounds interesting. They added some stuff at one point but it wasn't really anything special (with all due respect) since it was just an enhancement

so does class sets.

I was hoping Valence would get expanded on although I love the set bonuses with it

[fierce lynx]

Take the whole thing. Toss it into your favorite AI tool and ask it to summarize the comments. This works very well.

[fierce lynx]

Just catching up after a day in the office. Any updates from staff since over the holiday weekend? Specifically relating to profession resources?

[mystic vale]

https://blue-tracker.elanthia.online/
Forgot about slow mode haha! I don't see any substantive posts in here since yesterday.

[dusky kernel]

haha

[sinful coyote]

The chrism wars have begun in earnest. Those who have them, hide them in hopes of not being discovered. Chrismariums have become targets for bandits and the innocent alike. Untold amounts of experience have been lost to the ether.

[fierce lynx]

Breakage is dead. If only players would stop bringing it back up. Heh.
(Also thanks Swapwort - I didn't register what blue-tracker was immediately but that is pretty cool! Looks like no news... hopefully something substancive in the next day or so.)

[rotund siren]

The only reason I brought it up was because it was a method by which to help control the in game economy that had left the barn decades ago and wasn't viable in today's iteration of Gem$tone.

[tender scarab]

[You have earned 1375 bounty points, 1100 experience points, and 3465 silver.]
Here's an example turn-in from 6 vinous gigasblood rubies. This is Ascension, so 110% boosted, which means they give 525 silver each from the bounty turn-in as a base rate. It would have been over a thousand before.

[main field]

It would be even more viable in today’s iteration of gem$tone… just buy a simucoin to prevent one item from breakage for a day… then add a million+ bloodscrip item for immunity to it.

Done.

[ashen carbon]

I guess i have to give it 1 month to see if they're going to salvage anything out of the resource changes. There's not enough business days between the announcement and the weekend for me to get a cancellation, through. Here's to hoping.

[mental compass]

Kinda on the fence myself. The wife said she doens't have much interest in playing and thats a killer for me.

[swift pawn]

Gems: Certain gem rarities and values have been adjusted. did this get further clarified somewhere?

[tender scarab]

#1461872047062908929 message

So, previously, gems had kind of a wonky valuation where they were organized into tiers by value, but some had special snowflake status.
The tiers now determine the gem's value.```
#1461872047062908929 message
```Auchand OP — 1/17/2026 5:55 PM
It hit different gem tiers differently.
Tier 8 gems have had no overall valuation change.```
"Tier 8," we later found out, is "extraordinarily rare" in the APPRAISE, AKA the most rare/high value gems. Everything else seems to have gone down in value.

Edit: Well, maybe not tier 0 or 1. Those are hard enough to find and were already so worthless that I can't really discern the impact there yet. Talking like green zircon type gems.

[dusky kernel]

the cap is directed to those top 5%, all this other nickel and dime nonsense hurts everyone. follow it up with an anemic DR and you won't be able to joke about people leaving anymore

[chilly tulip]

Clerics we need to ween the playerbase off chrisms and get that mechanic out of our lives. Now is the time.

[calm bay]

What really confounds me is just how much my return experience seems to push more multi-account behavior.
Gemstones: way easier to find the max per month over multiple accounts vs trying to alt hunt on a single account.
Lootcap: each account adds to your effective loot cap.
Resource changes: hunting across multiple accounts is now more effective than trying to get alts on a single account resource capped each week.

[swift pawn]

ok to summarize:

before value = tier
now tier = value
there are 9 tiers (0-8)
8 has not been devalued
2-7 have been devalued
maybe 0-1 have been devalued

is there a tier ---> value breakdown somewhere?

[finite trench]

For the gem changes I think it’s also useful to think about to what degree we are concerned about overall gem based income (which can be fixed by adjusting tier values) and to what degree we feel like eg uncut diamonds should always be really valuable (in which case they should become more rare)

[ashen carbon]

That's the thing, I'm seriously considering if I do stay to just empty my FWI lockers, dump my premium and transfer my 1 alt I really care about to another account. Then I get to become part of the MA army, too. And, I'll save money.

[full flare]

Perhaps remove Chrisms - raising someone costs them their deed but they get the full value of the chrism raise with the deed. Raising without a deed possible but its a raise without the chrism effect, unless a cleric uses one of their deeds to do it.

Chrism censors - allow for raising of people without using a deed, and chrismarium - do the same thing but are powered through clerical sacrifice (gems, mana, personal deeds, etc.)

[tender scarab]

Nisugi's been recording what he finds here:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1oOAvX2Vj1r0OksOdoIayvV4U5PhbYMqynI6zhFfFNwU/edit?gid=413308038#gid=413308038

Edit: These are just found as-is. I've personally been exploring max values via gem purification. Rare (tier 6) seems to hover around 4000 and very rare (tier 7) around 8000. Extraordinarily rare remains capable of getting to 20000, but might also depend on the individual gem. Kind of hard to tell because, well, they are extraordinarily rare and not easy to get a large sample size of.

[swift pawn]

sweet- thanks 🙂

[sleek meadow]

Permify Chrisariums!!!

[swift pawn]

I guess chrism % (low to full) should be more a matter of tier rather than lore? I dunno how to fix that one, or maybe it was intentional.

[sleek meadow]

Maybe just take more spirit or manna to make the Rez better. Or Add a higher Rez spell. Or permify chrisariums like they did rogue kits. Lots of easy fixes. It’s not a silver sink issue at this point it’s a QOL gameplay enjoyment issue I believe. Plus you break chrisms we will think of new things to do new ways that’s just how it goes.

And honestly we are so far into this old text game whenever we are dealing with a messy or complex process or activity the first question after “does it blow up the game?” Should be “Does this complexity make people enjoy it more or would 90% be happier if it was just more simple?”

[tender scarab]

#1461872047062908929 message

That's something we can probably address, along with chrism values.```
("That" refers to the effect of loot cap on skins harming the value of Animalistic Totems that generate charges based on being fed skins.)

[tranquil maple]

I too am a depression era Elanthian

[sleek meadow]

I remember finding plate or half plate in hobgoblins in the graveyard and thinking I’d won the lottery. Enough trips and I could buy a mithril sword!

[lofty dragon]

I actually sell more of my boxes now than before the loot changes.... before the changes I only sold the silver/gold/mithril ones, but now I sell them all cause I'm using the family vault to have my locksmith character open every box I find (done with the box pool, not paying those prices) and there's no trash container in the lockers.

[tranquil maple]

I used to spend hours collecting leather greaves, spending USD per hour lol.

[main field]

Collecting leather breastplates from the gnolls in mystic caverns and before people finding out about nodes was a great memory

[lofty dragon]

In the 90's, I'd run around the Landing collecting empty boxes folk left lying around town and popping through the boot to RR to sell them.... cause the Landing pawn didn't buy them yet but the RR one did. Made enough silver to buy my first vultite gear that way.

[gusty crow]

Poof! Please make all adjustments and de-tweaks before Lumnis starts for me.

[warm agate]

The OTF weapons, the crystal ones I used to pick those up and pawn them until they nerfed it, and that wasn't even that long ago. I've always been a bit of a scavenger though. I still sell trail trash, which the last three days I've been finding crazy amounts of packs, cloaks, clothing, etc.

[edgy hollow]

were jail fines also considered in the silver drain from locksmiths detonating traps more often from live picking vs pool picking?

[neon stone]

Jail fines could be a great silver drain. Elanthia needs to be tougher on crime. And when they launch savants, why not create NPC precogs?

[normal drum]

Funny you should mention this...

[mental compass]

The Loot cap is incorrect, I'm hitting it at 6.5m of sold stuff. How odd.

[south trail]

wonder if they snuck in something devious like "max possible value" for gems, skins, etc. Also, I noticed a lot of garbage clothing I set to exlcude in eloot now sells in the pawnshop. there's probably another 2k per hunt in slippers and kirtles.

[pseudo fox]

I would like to put forward my disappointment regarding the accumulation of resources affected by the recent change. I don't have the ability to spend hours a day playing my characters, and now I find that I cannot gain the full amount within the week. Furthermore, I don't have the coin to spend for any of the recent boosts implemented. I feel like I've been punished by this particular change.

[finite trench]

if you're live picking you should probably be getting fewer fines because you can leave town

[devout island]

it seems like they are trying to punish the 1%ers by making global rules that hurt the middle/lower level players.

If they lose the middle of the road players, they might as well be done

[edgy hollow]

i haven't been, just seen some explosions and scarabs killing people

[chilly berry]

This is just how “flat rate taxes” work. Always hit the lower income brackets much harder.

So yeah. That’s what they did. And in their defense I would bet the GMs don’t hold economics degrees so I understand why it’s wasn’t really considered.

I suspect when taken as a whole basically what happened was the entire game economy just got multiplied by 0.35. So there may not be a functional difference in relative silver income, but the numbers look smaller.

[rotund siren]

and it hits the lowest brackets much much harder than the upper brackets

[neon stone]

I look forward to filing taxes in Solhaven next year.

[devout island]

the top players dont need the pool. they have alts to pick for them

[eager kestrel]

So I took a break for a few months after EG and am just getting back in the game. Not really wanting to weigh in on all the changes, but has there been any discussion from the GMs about making the fee at the locksmith pool more manageable? I don't mind paying it, but going back and forth to the bank for each box is kind of... tiresome

[chilly berry]

Check the pins. It’s been essentially “there’s a list. We’re reviewing it one at a time. We’re not going to make any big changes any time soon.”

It’s an oversimplification. But that’s the jist as I understand it.

[shell phoenix]

Depending on what town you're in, just ask a real live rogue to pick the boxes

[eager kestrel]

And talk to strangers?! What is this...?

[devout island]

i'm not sure if they can handcuff the F2P players any more than they already have, huge restrictions on any caster, rogues can only pick boxes the find while searching kills, NO help channel, and no locksmith pool

its almost as if the new group is removing stuff the old group implemented.

[chilly berry]

Group?

[devout island]

management group

[south trail]

Imma ask again... everything at DR is 50% off right?

[slate edge]

probably better to ask in #events I would assume rather than here? But normally it's only certain things are put up 50% off during events, not everything. You're not getting locker contracts, event booklets, etc for 50%. Usually it's encumbrance potions, spell up pills, recharge potions, etc.

[waxen comet]

to be know'd frem now on assa Taxhaben.

[frozen tusk]

Couldn't anyone that chooses not to opt into the 4x and 5x lumnis continue to gain resources like before and anyone that does absorbs at the new rate?

Seems like it would be easy to do since there's basically an on and off switch with lumnis donate.

[chilly berry]

Man you really do come up with some awesome ideas.

That’s not sarcasm.

[frozen tusk]

Seems like a good compromise. I think most folks can wrap their head around 5x and 4x lumnis requires an adjustment.

But if you choose not to participate leave things how they were.

[split hamlet]

Disappointing conversations today. Blame being thrown around. Terrible suggestions on how to "fix" everything. I think the timer should be moved up to 30 minutes between posts, but only during the daytime.

[tawny sierra]

I think we've reached the bargaining stage

[blazing violet]

If they did that, they'd have to start fielding requests for "undonation"

[ashen carbon]

I haven't, i've gone to the cancelling my premium and moving to MA stage. If that's what they want, that's what they get. I can do the same thing I was doing on 2 regular accounts. When I'm ready and I have multiple accounts at cap, I'll learn to MA hunt like everyone else is doing.

[waxen comet]

Imma stickin at denial!

[finite trench]

Unfortunately once you try multi accounting it’s likely you will find the design so amenable to multi accounting that it will just seem like the better choice, except for the limited locker space

[tawny sierra]

I wouldn't be surprised if they ran the math on that. Its gotta be way easier to gain more accounts than new players and then (just speculating here) add more premium perks to entice you back into premium. Or simply expect the conversion is an average of 3 basics to one premium for people that go this route.

[mental compass]

How many more locker slots do you get as a regular taxpayer?

[flat tusk]

50 regular, 50 family, only one set of lockers (versus a locker for each city in premium).

[south trail]

https://tenor.com/view/everything-must-go-sale-big-sale-everything-for-sale-cheap-gif-15234055

I was actually thinking more along the lines of BV shops - 50% of sigil sets, scripts, HESS.

[royal epoch]

👀

🚪

[split hamlet]

Talk to us Auchand, daddy makes everything better

[finite trench]

Why is the door looking at us

[marble haven]

ew.

[wispy forum]

Argh

[chilly berry]

You sure it’s not “I’ll show myself the door”?

[marble haven]

best rebus answer so far.

[split hamlet]

Don't edit the jungle room message! It reframes the ew!

[royal epoch]

I think people are maybe making too many kneejerk decisions while we actively assess the situation. Also, I'm still working off my Lumnis and I love that.

I might actually cap my empath now!