#[Official] Champion's Apotheosis

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harsh pine
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Thanks for tanking my GEF runestaff sale...

spiral frost
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I mean, if it makes you feel any better, I'll obviously sell my GEF lightning lance if I do drop it. 😛

harsh pine
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i think the deal of the day was kontii's somnis spear

spiral frost
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Might want to sell off my lightning Animalistic Spirit gloves and boots and pick up OTS grapple-based ones instead too. What a world. Wait, no, that one's not an option until they bring back Fatal Afflares. I can live with losing the somewhat mundane Fatal Afflares on my GEF lance, but the ones on my Animalistic Spirit stuff are too cool.

harsh pine
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Maybe. I am not seeing great results with grapple. Admittedly it was before he changed the flare thing.

spiral frost
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Even low crits of grapple still have the knockdown, though.

harsh pine
# 
** Hackles raised and teeth bared, a massive ethereal direwolf rushes forward with a deafening howl as a pack of wispy shadowy black direwolves roil forth in an angry torrent! **
   ... 8 points of damage!
   Solid wrist lock but the tatterdemalion ghast slips away!
spiral frost
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Ooh, I could drop my Energy Weapon bow for a T4 mechanical crossbow for immobilize flares.

harsh pine
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I am looking at Terror, Ghezyte, somnis again...heh.

spiral frost
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Yeah, starsong value is way down while ghezyte and somnis look better than ever.

harsh pine
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Rusalk is a given of course, but CC just became a lot more interesting in my eyes.

severe rapids
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What's with the flare stuffs

Didn't notice that early on in testing

????

cerulean lotus
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Anyone noticing that creature SMR /special attacks seem to hit more frequently/harder?

spiral frost
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Definitely haven't noticed that.

cerulean lotus
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Maybe it’s a string of bad luck, but I keep getting hit with ghast breath when it was a rarity previously. Warrior, 2x’d survival, dodge, FA, perception etc

spiral frost
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FOF pushdown, maybe? Or did you already usually hunt swarms?

chilly zenith
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Ghast breath (716) is a hidden sorcerer CS check vs your TD

cerulean lotus
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Already hunt swarms, this was with maybe only four creatures

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Seems like everything is hitting stronger, like a 5 point banshee mist causing a R2

spiral frost
# 
Gilded brilliance twinkles along the edges of a shining winged disir's metallic spear as she swings it at you!
  AS: +804 vs DS: +820 with AvD: +53 + d100 roll: +81 = +118
   ... and hits for 5 points of damage!
   Poked in the tummy.
  Hehehe.```
804 AS disir! 🎉
lusty dragon
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So this context is why I think it's important to apply the effect more granularly. Not all damage sources are equal. Fighting a foe with padding using normal attacks is more straightforward - you can improve your margins and increase your endroll. Adding buffs, debuffing and wounding the enemy, FOF, WPS your gear, etc. That part is okay. But the effects that are not directly related to endroll have no recourse.

I evaluated my last hunt in Fjallarhaart. Squad of 9. This still feels terrible. Almost 80% of my flares were rank 2 or worse.
Flare sources include standard ability flares, script flares (twisted, daybringer, valence), 1604, battle standards (both hallowed reprisal and ardent plea), 1618, lore flares, bane flares,

R0 - 3
R1 - 108
R2 - 53
R3 - 8
R4 - 15
R5 - 10 (mostly alch fire, starsong)
R6 - 2
R7 - 1 (lightning)
R8 - 1 (starsong)
R9 - 2 (lightning)

Total - 202
% R1 - 53%
% R2 - 26%

79% of all flares < R3

Because flares are, by and large, only a crit - the majority of their damage output is directly from the crit table. So up front, they're double tapped by the existence of both crit and damage padding. As I've noted before, flares are already heavily limited. They're unaimed (but don't benefit from vulnerable status), are a random chance to occur in the first place, and are crit capped at rank 7 out the gate already (lightning are admittedly a little cheaty, and some scripts can push up the ceiling a tiny bit).

rose atlas
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Have you tried forming a smaller group.

frail cove
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I have a more pressing issue to report.

I was sympathied by the wyrm earlier and was battling a group of 4 adventurers. I received none of the CA benefits.

hallow trail
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Has anyone tested how long the "recently grouped" flag lasts for? If it's just like 3 seconds might be better to enter a room, disband the group, wait 3 seconds, then attack then regroup. But if it's more like 60 seconds then maybe not.

My guys are for sure doing less damage, it's just obvious when you see a bunch of 1 point damage hits. But since I was hunting exclusively in Moonsedge with the awful spawn rate, and the spawn rate seeming to be better now, I'm about where I was before in terms of kills per minute.

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But then again my guys are well past cap with 10 ranks of Transcend Destiny with even my pures having dodge maxed, so I'm not sure if I'm in the minority or majority in that regards.

But also I have exactly zero pieces of good equipment.

lime bison
# 
** Night falls, bearing the basalt grotesque down beneath a crushing wave of fear! **
   ... 2 points of damage!
   Blow raises a welt on the basalt grotesque's right arm.

 ** A deep emerald green mist coils around your forearms as your spell reforms into a hex of Thought Lash! **
A crackling whip of energy lashes out at the basalt grotesque!
   ... 1 point of damage!
   Attempt to grab from behind shrugged off.
The residual psychic energy from the attack surrounds a horned basalt grotesque.

pew pew lol

rose atlas
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Just think, more scroll, go go flarestone.

hallow trail
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So yeah, just enter a room, disband your group, wait 3 seconds, do full damage to everything, regroup, move on.

spiral frost
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Legendary Gemstone property values!

  • ⏫⏫⏫: Arcane Aegis (in a vacuum, but Forbidden Arcanum is better), CS boost aspect of Arcanist's Ascendancy, Arcanist's Blade, Arcanist's Will, Chronomage Collusion, Forbidden Arcanum, defensive aspect of Mirror Image, Mystic Impulse, Pixie's Mischief, Spellblade's Fury, Trueshot, Unearthly Chains (but still wouldn't use it as a legendary when Geomancer's Spite does almost the same thing as a common), AS boost aspect of Witchhunter's Ascendancy
  • ⏬⏬⏬: flare aspect of Arcanist's Ascendancy, Charged Presence, offensive aspect of Mirror Image, Reckless Precision (but this was already one of the weakest), Stolen Power, Thorns of, flare aspect of Witchhunter's Ascendancy
  • Roughly the same: Imaera's Balm, Mana Shield, One Shot One Kill

Just needed to change my mindset and this is pretty cool since now I can accept a wider variety of legendary properties than "Mirror Image or bust" and probably pay less while I'm at it!

opal root
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Mirror image would depend on how you use it, it also has a defensive side which is good for like 1000 AS disir

spiral frost
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I guess, on that same notion, there's a case that Chronomage Collusion improves... okay, sure, you've sold me. Updated! And separated out the Ascendancy ones a bit.

opal root
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I have the full arcanist set and outside of the arena will is one of my favorite gems to equip. But I'm not sure it would make a real dent in what CA offers currently.

hallow trail
spiral frost
hallow trail
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So yeah, as of now, CA is 100% easily avoidable. I'm sure it's a bug, but maybe it's just a clever use of the "disband" verb.

versed ridge
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I have no issues with a group of 3 to 4. Creatures are disabled and die. My current group is pure caster, including a 9 mil xp sorcerer and a mutant cleric. I see the mongen changes as having far more effect to hunting, and in a positive area. I don't get stomped if I step into or near a room that a 12-18 person group left.

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This I agree with 100%.

cerulean lotus
pale linden
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can’t wait for open sea fishing 😁

versed ridge
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I suppose I should have phrased that as... at that moment of tweaking (and now), the CA effect is noticeable but not hindering my hunts for bounties, etc... although I have yet to find a gemstone on these characters (still on #1 for the month!)

cerulean lotus
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Definitely noticing it in ME, so YMMV. Having to stop the hunt every 2-3 minutes now

versed ridge
rose atlas
chilly zenith
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Also because one is 9m exp and one's a mutant sanct machine

spiral frost
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One nice thing about Champion's Apotheosis: it makes me feel slightly less dumb about 40% crush/puncture/slash resistance than before.

📎 message.txt
vernal dust
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Armored casting and a metal breastplate for all.

severe rapids
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Ok so the flare reduction is based on most flares are Crit Based, and the CA boosts the Crit/Damage of the critters

Am I following that now correctly?

versed ridge
versed ridge
frail cove
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I will say - with the mob gen - witch hunters ascendacy is really easy to get some awesome and consistent boosts now. Not directly CA related, but it does create a really nice AS boost

frail cove
chilly zenith
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I think all of those "turn mob buffs into your buffs" properties just became actually good

native sky
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Honestly this is my strategy!

oblique zenith
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Are pets immune from this mechanic? I could see this potentially increasing the value of Animate Dead.

spiral frost
frail cove
spiral frost
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I guess that makes more sense for a Moonsedge hunter!

main herald
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I want to know what happened here too? I'm hearing that even in group of 2 that flare dmg is way down

cerulean lotus
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the era of Solostone is upon us

chilly zenith
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Always has been

pale linden
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welcome new solos partyglasses

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i look forward to every room being filled with one hunter 😁

gusty oxide
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Going to have to start calling dibs on rooms to camp.

cerulean lotus
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'chasing!

pale linden
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the earthdiver strategy is finally going mainstream

main herald
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i camp in that room too when hes not there but not for long

pale linden
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go prone to go home

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don't move, the CA creatures eyesight is based on movement

cerulean lotus
opal girder
pale linden
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everybody better respect the sanctity of dibs

cerulean lotus
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'I'm running to the locksmith pool really quick, SAVE MY SPOT

gusty oxide
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Bloodybux for signs you can PLACE to save a spot!

opal root
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Guess those town bulletin boards will start getting some use for sign up sheets

pale linden
versed ridge
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Tents and the sanctuary unlocks will be the new hot items at... whatever venue those were moved to.

grim wadi
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DR for Pup Tents

pale linden
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multisetting rings and pup tent stocks on the rise!

floral marsh
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SK213 will be T1 soon?

spark canyon
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I find 220 more effective with groups

grim wadi
open spindle
plain basalt
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Spike and fury are weak in groups now. Can we at least make them cost less mana? 😬

plain basalt
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Spell flares are not functioning at a disproportionate penalty because the majority of them depend on crit cycles. Due to crit randomization and the inability to further boost those crits like melee attacks can, the non-randomized padding being applied at 100% just means the smaller groups lose out the most.

grim wadi
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It does seem like this nerfs casters more than melee, and that spell damage should probably get another look.

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A lot of caster things have low damage in repeated cycles, like 309, and even the bigger flares off of 917 or something are getting smushed by this.
Extra HP + crit immunity still seems to be better. Or a damage shield that pops up and needs to be broken first.

rose atlas
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Or no penalty for small groups (5 or less) as was originally stated.

hallow trail
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I think the only way this would work is if the first 5 people are ignored no matter how large the group is. Otherwise you run into the possibility of a 5 person group outperforming a 10 person group, which is probably something the GMs are trying to avoid.

opal girder
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Maybe a redux would be better than padding. Flat % reduction on damage with the percentage being based on group size. Hopefully easier to math out and avoid Dreaven's concern.

Or a sliding scale of redux to be less impactful on mini hit spells and flares. 0-20 damage is 0%, 20-40 is 10%, and so on. Percentages would be based on group size.

sage owl
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If the purpose of CA is to discourage non-script players in groups of 5 or less from enjoying ascension zone together … it’s doing a really great job

native sky
sage owl
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I can not relate how it is in other ascension zones other than SG currently, but as others have mentioned before… Cycled spell casters are pretty obsolete with the current changes. Seeing your damage do 1-4 damage is not fun.

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It is better to just hunt solo or duo than to bother grouping with others anymore.

lusty dragon
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Yeah, I'm trying to stay open minded, but it's still not in the right spot IMO.

sage owl
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It definitely does not promote you wanting to group up with your friends to quest together for exp or loot.

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To be honest, it really makes me be more picky with my hunting partners now (I.E. by myself…. Serious birth of solo stone)

hallow trail
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Just gotta disband/leave your group before you attack.

lusty dragon
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You really should stop suggesting blatent GMA as a solution 😆

hallow trail
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I mean someone is gonna do it until they fix it.

If it's even a bug. Maybe it's supposed to work like that 😮

lime bison
hallow trail
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Nope. I personally don't mind the changes all that much.

That's why I was wondering earlier about the experience levels of the people who are having issues. Do these changes just not affect people who are 10x cap all that much compared to people who are 3x cap?

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My casters are for sure burning through more mana, so I seriously think that should be addressed.

lime bison
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Yeah but I think we're getting the same amount of kills it's just running out of mana quicker

hallow trail
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This is also a great chance to make regional gemstones good: make it so they offset CA in some fashion.

chilly zenith
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Champion's Antithesis: You no longer count toward the number of members in your group in Ascension areas.

native sky
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Interesting - I didn't think most of this stuff was going to impact less than 5

lusty dragon
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I'm not having any issues with killing things FWIW. A couple deaths from souped up bad guys, totally fine with that. Spending more time and resources setting up/debuffing - also no issue.

But the drastically diminished efficacy of the absurdly expensive gear I've been investing into for several years is a major feelsbad. Not to mention my main classes primary attack spells reduced to tickles.

I get that the core of these changes is a major [campaign against MA](#1437571971079606352 message), but admittedly I don't fully understand why it's still necessary within the context of the spawn changes also being deployed (goal #2). If the problem is efficiency/killing things too quickly, then why aren't SK "abusers" also targeted? Note, I don't actually think that they should, but in terms of pure combat gain it's comparable.

In the history of the hot topic that is the eeevil of MA, the major concern that came up consistently was that it caused major problems for solo players who occupied the same zones as the diry MAers. I don't recall anyone complaining about the mechanical advantages that the increased investment offered, mostly because I think it's fairly self evident that more investment should reasonably be rewarded with more benefit.

Even still, with all that said, I generally remain in support of the effort in spite of my lack of alignment with the value of the stated goal. I just wish some of the other ideas offered up as solutions were being considered more carefully. The flaw in the current implementation, in my assessment, is that the changes have been applied with a broad stroke universal change rather than with a more granular understanding of the various combat forms. In terms of implementation effort I certainly understand why, but I don't think dev has fully/sufficiently examined the nuance yet

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Some of that nuance being:

  • Not all combat resolutions are based on endroll, some are boolean systems whose final result is a secondary roll irrespective of the first
  • Not all combat systems have equal access to affect endroll via buffs/debuffs/gear enhancements (WPS being particularly relevant)
  • Not all combat systems scale at the same rate, some hit diminishing returns much earlier
  • Not all combat systems deliver value in the same way (multiple small hits vs one big hit, for example)
    All of these change the relative impact of universal padding
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And because of that, for example, a group of 10 warriors is going to be essentially unaffected by CA. Meanwhile a group of 10 flarestone enjoying pures is sobbing away with no mana as they tickle things to death.

grim wadi
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Damage shields like this mini-boss one maybe:

The lustrous sphere partially absorbs the attack!```
pale linden
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kinda wish we would lean in a little more to MA in some ways. like, why couldn’t we have a hunting ground that encourages MA the way SG encourages solo play? not sure what that would look like, but i’d love to find out lol

elder heart
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how does sg encourage solo play?

grim wadi
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Or just undead style damage reduction (30% redux with 6 characters in a group, scaling by 5% more per added character)

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But yeah, small groups need to be better protected, and the reduction (whatever it is technically, crit/dmg/something else) that's destroying pure spells needs to be removed in particular (at least in a group of 5 or fewer)

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I'm still also fine with groups of 3 being normal, and scaling beginning at 4+ (20% damage redux starting at 4 people, +5% per added character)

lusty dragon
grim wadi
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It is a bit annoying, but everyone could use gold rings to skip the swimming (or more expensive teleporters). You can fog a group back to the Contempt too

elder heart
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with 930 i'm doing fine

hallow trail
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Allow the group leader to choose how the critters will be buffed. Seems to be the only way to make everyone happy.

zealous hollow
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There is never a way to make everyone happy. Someone will always suffer. It's only natural 😈

hallow trail
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True dat.

opal root
sage owl
spiral frost
# hallow trail Nope. I personally don't mind the changes all that much. That's why I was wonde...

I wonder about this too. If pure empaths or non-melee rangers are having trouble, then I completely understand, but anything else has been a really smooth lateral shift for me at worst. Drop 317 for 312, drop 719 for 711, drop 917 for bolts.

Empath base and ranger base don’t really have that level of versatility, though. Definitely entertaining the idea of swapping my ranger out of archery and into TWC katars to do significantly more damage. (I say “archery,” but really it’s more like “hold a bow for DS and spam Spike Thorn,” but that particular tactic got a lot worse.)

Edit: I guess my warrior did also lose a 435 that does anything, which is a little unfortunate since I had literally just trained up to 25 EMC for extra 435 targets like a month before this change and now it's just a very minor QoL benefit for spellups. Still, everything else she does is either virtually unaffected (AS attacks) or completely unaffected (warcries), so I don't really care. I'm quite sure most warriors aren't casting 435 either anyway.

sage owl
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If there is going to be arbitrary number for group size … it should be consistent across the board

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If you have a limited play time shared with others… there no point of ever including more people to your group

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Again, this is mainly for my groups of 4-5 people … when it was 6+ … kpm was slightly worse but practically unnoticeable between all the spammers and just having the pures play pure support roles

gusty oxide
sage owl
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I don’t see any incentive to group with other hunters in an ascension zone with the changes. It is better to be a completely solo player than to be any support. Plus, I get all the gemstone chance loot to myself now.

gusty oxide
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I mean I haven't seen an incentive to group with other hunters in an ascension zone since the release of gemstones, either.

chilly zenith
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Solo life. My mom says I'm very handsome.

spiral frost
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Yeah, IMO Gemstones should work more like fragments where anyone in the group who's eligible has a chance to find one regardless of who's looting.

(Not exactly like fragments, though; fragments seems to operate on percentage contribution to each kill as far as I can tell, which would disfavor debuffing characters and the like in a group.)

gusty oxide
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Gemstones and dust.

sage owl
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That’s my unsolicited 2 silvers. After 2 decades, my group settings will be closed now because obviously, in Gemstone IV… we are not stronger together

chilly zenith
quasi skiff
# lusty dragon I haven't tried myself, but the movement system requirements there seem pretty d...

I wouldn't expect it to matter much, really. Either everyone has to have a way to tp or everyone has to swim, which sucks but it's whatever not really different than going to any other area with potentially room breaking movements you just need to form up again at the rally point. When you're done assuming one person in the group has return/130 you can just pop everyone back.

There's no real reason to move between the distinct sub-zones (the ship graveyard, talon island, seat of storms). They basically have distinct creature spawns without real meaningful overlap so you'd go to whatever you want to grind / your bounty is.

Being able to do the 930 portal dance like muzgal said is yeah, nice. we just need to pay 3 wizards to sit there 24/7 problem solved.

cerulean lotus
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Less SG talk, more “CA makes this game unplayable” talk pls

sage owl
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CA doesn’t make the game unplayable, it just discourage people to play together

versed ridge
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In groups of 4 to 5, I just don't see that. Even in groups of pure casters.

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and larger groups are unlikely to be "people playing together", outside of organized hunts like Drakes Vanguard, etc... which doesn't go into Ascension areas AFAIK

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I agree 100% with the "feelsbad" on flares / rare materials / script flares, and seeing the mechanical effects that damage padding has on multi-hit spells vs big bolts

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IMO, "unplayable" is hyperbole. I'm not sure if you were serious with that.

sage owl
#

XXXs gestures at a hapless charmed corsair.
The ground beneath a hapless charmed corsair begins to boil violently!
Craggy debris explodes from the ground beneath a hapless charmed corsair!
[SMR result: 236 (Open d100: 86, Bonus: 52)]
... 10 points of damage!
Light blow to left leg.

This is in a group of 4 with a 20mil+ wizard

#

Craggy debris explodes from the ground beneath a grey-plumed steelwing harpy!
[SMR result: 250 (Open d100: 93, Bonus: 80)]
The intensity of the attack is blunted by the harpy's stubborn plumage!
... 2 points of damage!
Blow grazes neck lightly.

#

XXX hands glow with power as he summons elemental energy to his command...
XXX gestures at a fulminating stormborn primordial.
Bloodstained light spills down from the heavens in an undulating deluge, bathing a fulminating stormborn primordial's form in a cascade of transcendent power!
The ground beneath a fulminating stormborn primordial begins to boil violently!
Fiery debris explodes from the ground beneath a fulminating stormborn primordial!
[SMR result: 144 (Open d100: 73)]
... 15 points of damage!

Fiery debris explodes from the ground beneath a fulminating stormborn primordial!
[SMR result: 155 (Open d100: 84, Bonus: 1)]
... 1 point of damage!

little breach
sage owl
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There is no incentive or benefits to group with other players

little breach
#

there is still better loot overall though. but players are put in a position on who's loot cap is going to suffer. If those players actually care about that or are hitting their loot caps

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but I also don't think people should be rolling around with 10+ accounts causing some people's game clients to crash when they enter a room or cause a massive swarm. But that's just me. heh... there is a point when something becomes too excessive and disruptive.

I've seen that happen in the scatter for a time. Someone would make the area completely unhuntable.

versed ridge
sage owl
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If the goal is to fill resources for side characters, you can just ewave or do OSA. Its mainly for hunting with other people in groups for more difficult content

versed ridge
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Well, if the wizard is mutant and grouphunting for experience, resource, gemstones, etc, then that's great... but not really a measure of "effectiveness" with and without CA changes.

pale linden
# elder heart how does sg encourage solo play?

maybe encourages is the wrong way to put it, more like it's more annoying for MA. the areas are split and require more to move around (more commands, climbing, etc), every area has multiple aoe, some services are only available on fwi. travel to from is weird. etc, etc. none of it is insurmountable of course, you're doing it 😁, but it takes surprisingly little resistance to turn most people off and i suspect the larger the MA group the less likely they'll adopt SG. but that's just like, my opinion man.

sage owl
versed ridge
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I agree, it's not just wizard 917.. Multicycle spells are hit and affected more (proportionally) than single hit spells because the padding is applied multiple times. The point I was wanted to verify is that 917 is the wizard's only attack spell by choice.

opal root
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I remember kind of going through this when the wyrm was released and we were testing it and the general responses seemed to be some flavor of we're fine with people having to change their tactics and diversify some.

versed ridge
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And I'm not dissing mutants in a group here. I include one with my group of 3 often.

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Generally, though, if spell A is less effective on creature X, then try a different setup: AS vs CS vs SMR vs setup vs creativity.

sage owl
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<shrug> Okay. You're right.

versed ridge
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I also think some mutants have it harder than others, and I expect wizards have it the hardest (due to AS and bolts being across all three spell bases), but I haven't hunted with a mutant wizard in Ascension, so no real experience there. Just expectation that mutant wizards have it hardest.

chilly zenith
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I don't think it's reasonable to expect a mutant spell-split service bonus pure to be able to hunt in Ascension at all.

versed ridge
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I think it's as reasonable (with skill, gear, strategy) as characters in late 80s and 90s completing the wrym and sybil

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I see Keruta typing, and I dont know if 10 bazillion Ascension experience in the 90s applies to that statement 🙂

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Now, I don't think mutant builds should be good examples for tuning CA here, but if the team can carry it... more power to them. (Train the dodge, and ensorcell my weapon please!)

chilly zenith
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I don't have a problem with people being able to do it but expecting mechanical changes to enable it is what I'd consider unreasonable.

pale linden
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personally i think anyone in the 90s can probably get through with just luck if you're willing to die for it a few times

oblique zenith
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I'm guessing (assuming and hoping) this will get adjusted. Just ridiculous to see 1 damage results just because you grouped with other characters.

It has a similar vibe to the "cman killpure" ability the Grimswarm had with the Sunfist release event.

versed ridge
# chilly zenith I don't have a problem with people being **able to do it** but expecting mechani...

Thinking on this some more.... while I think there is some needing tuning to not penalize multi-cycle spells or Simucoin sales for material and script flare sales... the current CA implementation does succeed (IMO) in not penalizing mutants more than they penalize themselves. I don't believe SMR, CS, or TD is adjusted via CA, and those are the things that are most difficult for a player to change.

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The damage from SMR spells is affected by the padding, but ability to hit at all is not... so mutants (and anyone) can continue to hit as often as before, just not as hard. Anyone's ability to survive (mutant or not ) will be harder with the creature's boost to AS, etc, but that's also where group members protect each other with the buffs.

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So yeah: tl;dr current CA implementation does not disfavor mutants in... honestly, any way I can think of.

chilly zenith
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Yeah and if you're a 303 rank wizard your only goal is getting tag credit, which you can still do. Just not much more than that with your 917, heh.

oblique zenith
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This should have been done with resistance instead of padding. Or resistance with a comparatively smaller amount of padding. Then it would have affected most builds proportionately instead of nuking the smaller damage spammy builds.

versed ridge
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912 helps too. Keep 'em down.

sage owl
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You only need to 410 for credit. I don't understand why you even need to do damage... Then you just need to search if you're concerned about mutants/loot

versed ridge
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If they train 2x SA, weaponfire might hit mobs that dont' have the strongest elemental TD

sage owl
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You can easily bypass the majority of this in an easier Ascension hunting zone with less exp... However in harder zones... what purpose do you have to group with other players? It literally just hinders you.

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What is the purpose of grouping or hunting with anyone else? Just wondering... at the end game.

versed ridge
#

Same reasons as now? group buffs, group defenses, multiple targets, layered disables, redundant disablers if someone disabled/RT lock, more kills per mana/stamina of your own due to group, different strategies and strengths of classes vs creatures and creatures vs character classes.
Including your weaker character with your stronger to keep them together, bring along a mutant that you can protect... I mean, seriously: all the same reasons as we did last wek.

cerulean lotus
gusty oxide
#

I want to preface this as I'm asking this question with genuine curiosity, I'm not trying to be a jerk.

But how is the buff making it so difficult in groups smaller than, say 5, to hunt together? I didn't think the buff was increasing that much until you started getting in the 6+ range?

harsh pine
#

You see dramatic reduction at 2 on specific items.

gusty oxide
#

Which ones? I'm trying to get a clearer picture,

harsh pine
#

You would have to scroll back a bit to find the logs of 317 from Tsalinx. But I can say 309, 317, 917.

little breach
#

So this impacts groups less than 5 too?

harsh pine
#

Yes. It starts a 2.

versed ridge
# cerulean lotus *in gigas village

And the edges of Boral, to oozes, mutants, undandsormers... but yes: I stick to the villages, boreal, and maybe mutants, and I have not hunted mutants/disciples/undandsormrs since the CA change (which isn't due to CA changes... just when I am hunting with my paladin)

#

But yes. My life continues as normal in groups of 3-4, recently pure caster groups due to Lumnis and gemstone eligibility, in easy areas.

gusty oxide
#

I'll try running my cleric with my rogue and see (by try I mean I'll actually have to set something up cause I don't run them together ever)

floral marsh
#

I can pull logs off my Cleric hunting there too.

harsh pine
#

I am not saying its unplayable just you were asking for examples. Its primarily the secondary/tertiary flares on 317 by the way.

gusty oxide
#

Oh definitely, I'm really just trying to understand.. and seeing how my poor, barely capped cleric plays with my rogue will hopefully help that.

slim anchor
#

I wish something in this channel was pinned about the actual padding, as/cs affects rather than having to scroll through thousands of messages

lusty dragon
#

You can search for from: Auchand in this channel and it’s not too far down

#

(Pin would be great, but in the meantime)

gusty oxide
#

Ah ok, cause 309 seems to still be doing nicely (at least in group of 2). I'll test 317 🙂

opal root
#

Are the changes to CA that have been made since it went live also ported to test or is the test version out of date now?

harsh pine
#

Just so folks know, I believe Auchand stated somewhere he had some business travel. So not sure if people should expect anything soonish.

# 
The rusalkoren greatshield flashes toward an infernal death knight!
[SMR result: 238 (Open d100: 78, Bonus: 91)]
   ... 87 points of damage!
   ... 20 points of damage!
   Good blow to left leg!
   ... 15 points of damage!

The rusalkoren greatshield flashes toward a smouldering skeletal dreadsteed!
[SMR result: 218 (Open d100: 41, Bonus: 143)]
   ... 76 points of damage!
   ... 4 points of damage!
   Brushing blow to temple.
   ... 9 points of damage!
   Strike to forehead causes the skeletal dreadsteed momentary dizziness.
The rusalkoren greatshield ricochets off the skeletal dreadsteed and flashes toward a smouldering skeletal dreadsteed!

This is a before and after in a group of 3 for shield throw. Similar result and similar initial damage. But you can see the reduction in the secondary and tertiary flare. I mean is this SIGNIFICANT...not really I guess. Its just what I think people are saying.

floral marsh
#

This should be max CA for the critters from my group.

8.8m cleric:

A single dim, golden globe springs to life in your left hand.  With a flick of your left wrist, the globe dances through the air toward a tattooed gigas berserker!
  CS: +488 - TD: +318 + CvA: +10 + d100: +47 == +227
  Warding failed!
The orb squarely impacts a tattooed gigas berserker, discharging the golden energy over his entire being for 114 points of damage!
  The golden energy pulses for an additional 79 points of damage ...
  ... 47 points of damage ...
  ... 23 points of damage ...
  ... 11 points of damage ...
  ... dissipating with a final discharge of 5 points of damage!
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.```

```Bloodstained light spills down from the heavens in an undulating deluge, bathing a niveous giant warg's form in a cascade of transcendent power!
A single dim, golden globe springs to life in your left hand.  With a flick of your left wrist, the globe dances through the air toward a niveous giant warg!
  CS: +488 - TD: +406 + CvA: +25 + d100: +14 == +121
  Warding failed!
The orb squarely impacts a niveous giant warg, discharging the golden energy over its entire being for 29 points of damage!
  The golden energy pulses for an additional 20 points of damage ...
  ... 12 points of damage ...
  ... dissipating with a final discharge of 6 points of damage!
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.```

You channel at a heavily armored battle mastodon.
A single dim, golden globe springs to life in your left hand. With a flick of your left wrist, the globe dances through the air toward a heavily armored battle mastodon!
CS: +488 - TD: +317 + CvA: +25 + d100: +85 == +281
Warding failed!
The orb squarely impacts a heavily armored battle mastodon, discharging the golden energy over its entire being for 152 points of damage!
The golden energy pulses for an additional 106 points of damage ...
... 63 points of damage ...
As a heavily armored battle mastodon collapses, it lets out a shrill trumpet of despair. Its trunk flails futilely before slamming to the ground, still.
A heavily armored battle mastodon appears less intimidated as a haze of grey mist rises from it and dissipates.
... the remaining energy dissipates harmlessly from the mastodon's corpse.```

18m cleric:

A single dim, lapis blue globe springs to life in Ersetling's left hand.  The globe leaps from Ersetling's left hand and dances through the air toward a niveous giant warg!
  CS: +510 - TD: +411 + CvA: +25 + d100: +51 == +175
  Warding failed!
The orb squarely impacts a niveous giant warg, discharging the lapis blue energy over its entire being for 60 points of damage!
  The lapis blue energy pulses for an additional 42 points of damage ...
  ... dissipating with a final discharge of 25 points of damage!

A single dim, lapis blue globe springs to life in Ersetling's left hand.  The globe leaps from Ersetling's left hand and dances through the air toward a brawny gigas shield-maiden!
  CS: +510 - TD: +346 + CvA: -10 + d100: +56 == +210
  Warding failed!
The orb squarely impacts a brawny gigas shield-maiden, discharging the lapis blue energy over her entire being for 90 points of damage!
  The lapis blue energy pulses for an additional 63 points of damage ...
  ... dissipating with a final discharge of 37 points of damage!

A single dim, lapis blue globe springs to life in Ersetling's left hand.  The globe leaps from Ersetling's left hand and dances through the air toward a tattooed gigas berserker!
  CS: +510 - TD: +384 + CvA: +10 + d100: +22 == +158
  Warding failed!
The orb squarely impacts a tattooed gigas berserker, discharging the lapis blue energy over his entire being for 45 points of damage!
  The lapis blue energy pulses for an additional 31 points of damage ...
  ... dissipating with a final discharge of 18 points of damage!```
little breach
#

So I’m confused. Why are we punishing groups that small? This seems like this is wildly off with wanting people to incentivize grouping together in an ascension area? Since it really wasn’t meant to be soloed.

sage owl
harsh pine
#

I understand what you are saying, but it shouldn't be about scripting or not. I think the "feels bad" of some of it is universal.

versed ridge
#

Flares feel bad, especially with those expensive in taxable dollars (or your local currency). (script flares, material transmutes)

#

I admit I am repeating myself here. Time for a break.

harsh pine
craggy raptor
#

I'm hoping this is just a bug that can be ironed out and the penalty for small groups will be quite small as supposedly intended and it won't matter much.

spark canyon
#

I say even the playing field more appropriately, build a system for equipping mobs with temp gear (random gear with random properties that will go poof when removed from the mob) make a chart for random dice rolls when the mob is generated. Poof a level 106 vampire patrician generates… he’s wearing… +46 half plate with grapple flares, wielding a +26 pure black ora bastard sword with Duskbringer script and a +33 adamantine great shield.

#

If we can have it… why can’t mobs? To heck with all the redux and padding across the board…

#

Throw a disir at them with rage armor and a temporal claidhmore

#

Include wps

#

Maybe the gigas berserker has chronomage daggers… or a briar claid…

#

The reason we have such an innate advantage vs mobs… IS our gear. And maybe some dumbed down simple combat routines programmed into the mobs. Maybe we boost the mobs mentality too… make them smarter.

leaden grail
#

I kind of liked Sympathy, but it never worked out for the fun I had in mind. I think there should be a goblin like event or we're all mobs, but it's just a mirage and it's a free for all maze run. Mirror image us as Empyrean's

little breach
versed ridge
#

Ok, hunting again in a group of 4 and looking at flare numbers... and with Auchand's adjustment of a few days, they look okay. The "feel" is I still see the rounds of plasma, double plasma, script flares on my paladin in multiples of 5.

floral marsh
versed ridge
#

Cleric's.. 335, I think has a good crit and death:

  damage!
   ... 50 points of damage!
   Electrical charge toasts the gigas berserker.  You get a sharp whiff of burning
  hair.
A tattooed gigas berserker's fists tense with impotent rage as he surrenders to
  death.
The tenseness in the berserker's body relaxes.
The burden of condemnation lifts from a tattooed gigas berserker.
#

While the damage from Wither looks lower... it kills by stacking crits until death (if in a vulnerable area). SOmeone was discussing this a day or two ago, but I don't think their point was understood:

#

Damage of 1, 5, and 15 but killed with a death crit to the eye

The force of Empath's power warps the air as it surges toward a grim gigas skald!
  Warding failed!
A nebulous haze shimmers into view around a grim gigas skald, plunging inward to
  envelop her right eye!
   ... 1 point of damage!
   Eyebrow and eyelashes of right eye melted off.
   Trendy!

   ... 5 points of damage!
   Eyebrow and eyelashes of right eye melted off.
   Trendy!
   ... 15 points of damage!
   Portions of eye socket turned to fine powder!
   How irritating!
A grim gigas skald raises a hand as if to grasp for support as she collapses, life
  going out of her form.
A white glow rushes away from a grim gigas skald.
A grim gigas skald seems less distracted.

That's my mileage with a group of 4.

floral marsh
#

Here is a clip of my pure ranger who is maxed summoning lore and pure caster:

Dozens of long thorns suddenly grow out from the ground underneath a heavily armored battle mastodon!
[SMR result: 286 (Open d100: 84, Bonus: 79)]
Several of the thorns jab into the mastodon!
   ... hits for 39 points of damage!
   ... 2 points of damage!
   Minor puncture to the left leg.
   ... hits for 26 points of damage!
   ... 2 points of damage!
   Minor puncture to the back.
   ... hits for 40 points of damage!
   ... 2 points of damage!
   Minor puncture to the abdomen.
   ... hits for 19 points of damage!
   ... 2 points of damage!
   Minor puncture to the chest.```

Definetely can tell the difference from before, but still decent overall.  This is with 17 in the group.  Hes only at 8.8m exp too so not that far past cap.
versed ridge
#

How large of a group? That's important info for any comparison. [Edit: Ahh, and there's the edit to include 🙂 ]

frail cove
#

So a couple observations, with a group of 6 from Moonsedge.

  1. If it wasn't for two characters that were 5x cap and melee, nothing would get killed from my group in Moonsedge without insane amounts of mana. Pures have been rendered obsolete. My pures do 10 damage or less on any given hit, against everything.

  2. with the exception of holy fire, whichc seems to be nearly unphased by CA. Go get those S6's!

Bands of spectral mist ripple and surge beneath a smouldering skeletal dreadsteed!
[SMR result: 142 (Open d100: 80, Bonus: 2)]
   ... 9 points of damage!
   Finger jams and swells.
The dreadsteed is knocked to the ground!

 ** Your faewood scepter bursts alight with leaping tongues of holy fire! **
   Consumed by the hallowed flames, a smouldering skeletal dreadsteed is ravaged for 75 points of damage!
   ... 9 points of damage!
   Burst of flames to chest toasts skin nicely.```
floral marsh
frail cove
#

i think that was 110... but i could paste similar results from 917, 115, 309, 302, etc...

#

i just went and reviewed my last hunt... felt bad for the pures

floral marsh
#

Is there something happening in ME? Here is my cleric with 312:

You channel at a heavily armored battle mastodon.
A single dim, golden globe springs to life in your left hand.  With a flick of your left wrist, the globe dances through the air toward a heavily armored battle mastodon!
  CS: +488 - TD: +317 + CvA: +25 + d100: +85 == +281
  Warding failed!
The orb squarely impacts a heavily armored battle mastodon, discharging the golden energy over its entire being for 152 points of damage!
  The golden energy pulses for an additional 106 points of damage ...
  ... 63 points of damage ...
As a heavily armored battle mastodon collapses, it lets out a shrill trumpet of despair.  Its trunk flails futilely before slamming to the ground, still.
A heavily armored battle mastodon appears less intimidated as a haze of grey mist rises from it and dissipates.
  ... the remaining energy dissipates harmlessly from the mastodon's corpse.```
frail cove
#

what group size?

floral marsh
#

My normal group, 17

frail cove
#

lol, if that's with a group of 17, i'd say something is broken with CA in HW 😉

floral marsh
#

It is proccing the Bloodstained light spills down from the heavens in an undulating deluge, bathing a tattooed gigas berserker's form in a cascade of transcendent power!

#

Now my melee's are struggling unless I prep them:

Evlakaan swings a curved black ora falchion at a tattooed gigas berserker!
  AS: +599 vs DS: +662 with AvD: +36 + d100 roll: +22 = -5
   A clean miss.```

Corbanstorm attempts to kick a tattooed gigas berserker!
UAF: 684 vs UDF: 764 = 0.895 * MM: 117 + d100: 5 = 109
... and hit for 1 point of damage!
Poorly-executed kick impacts the back with no real force.```

little breach
# floral marsh ...

How is it possible for you to see everything that is going on for all 17 of your characters at the same time?

Just trying to understand how.

floral marsh
frail cove
little breach
# floral marsh

Is that frontend better vs wraith because I lag out when I go into groups of that size when they are fighting in a room. My clients disconnect me in wraith

Sorry didn’t mean to notify

floral marsh
quasi skiff
#

Anything that does concussion damage will relatively unphased by the padding so all of 711, all of 312, first hit on 317, etc. no crit to reduce so it’s not getting all the damage taken down to a rank 1 crit for 3 damage.

floral marsh
little breach
#

I use to use that one but moves to wraith. I’ll have to try it again

floral marsh
little breach
#

I’m going to swap back to that frontend to see if I lag out.

floral marsh
#

I think Tijay only lagged out once when I was hunting with him on test

formal shoal
#

I'm considering some tweaks to how damage is handled. There's definitely a lack of parity in how magic users are being affected versus physical damage dealers.

floral marsh
formal shoal
#

Should improve magic damage.

#

I don't know that physical damage dealers need additional help--those numbers look pretty solid.

floral marsh
#

Any word on the flare component? I don't really have any flares on my gear but I know thats been a concern brought up above. Or if thats inclusive of the magic damage review

cerulean lotus
#

Let’s bump up the min group size for this as well (at least up from 2)

grim wadi
#

3 seems reasonable. (People actually do need help sometimes if they're new to ascension too. So not allowing small groups just makes ascension even later as a goal for them, which would be discouraging.)

sage owl
#

You snap your arm forward, hurling your skull-shaped buckler at a grey-plumed steelwing harpy with all your might!
Your skull-shaped buckler flashes toward a grey-plumed steelwing harpy!
You hear the soft tinkle of rolling dice, followed by the sound of coins dropping!
[SMR result: 134 (Open d100: 39, Bonus: 40)]
... 7 points of damage!
... 5 points of damage!
Blow to back connects lightly.
... 10 points of damage!
Severe low back pain! The steelwing harpy gasps.
Your skull-shaped buckler ricochets off the steelwing harpy and flashes toward a fulminating stormborn primordial!
You hear the soft tinkle of rolling dice, followed by the sound of coins dropping!
[SMR result: 125 (Open d100: 45, Bonus: 20)]
... 2 points of damage!
... 10 points of damage!
... 5 points of damage!
You deftly catch your skull-shaped buckler on the rebound.
Roundtime: 3 sec.

this is in a group of 4.

floral marsh
sage owl
#

noob - 24m

#

Again, no problems hunting solo. Not really an issue

rose atlas
#

It's kind of crazy now how 24m doesn't really feel like much xp

spiral frost
#

Yeah, I guess we really haven't covered this in detail, but low endrolls are also disproportionately hit even for attacks that would be fine if they were higher. (That's as opposed to the attacks that are bad even when they are high, like 917.) Push those endrolls up by 100 and things would look pretty good just on the back of the initial hit.

floral marsh
#

Yeah I wasn't sure if those were normal rolls for that skill as I haven't used it before

sage owl
#

Just stating facts... If you're not 20m+ with thousands invested in gear... don't expect to be grouping with anyone new in any difficult zone... because your presence in the group makes it less fun

versed ridge
#

Ok, so possible bug or undocumented feature... that contributes to my impression on not seeing a "painful" effect in my groups of 4.
If the "undulating deluge" messaging is accurate for when CA buffs the enemy, then it is only triggered on direct attacks that target the enemy. AoE effects and damage to 2+ enemies in room do not trigger CA. I see this with 217, 335, 1630, volley,

#

1614 also did not trigger CA on additional targets.

spiral frost
#

Hmm. My 335s have seemed pretty good and I just assumed it was because of the flat rate crit rank buff from Religion lore, but my 635s have seemed terrible and those don't target either. Will have to poke around a bit more with AoE.

versed ridge
#

This was on a group of critters in a room I stepped into (looking at my logs). Team focused on first in the room, which lived long enough to kill most of the room with splash damage

#

It's possible CA was triggered by someone else [edit: before I entered the room], but I was doing really good damage with 1630 and 335, and I saw the deluge messaging on later creatures that lived when they were targeted individually.

spiral frost
#

I do good concussion damage with 1630 due to very high CS, but the crits are bad, so seemed to be working there for me. I'll do a bit more rigorous testing, though, since 1630 isn't usually part of my rotation and I was just messing around to see what it did.

versed ridge
#

I use it because I usually have lots of mana, and it lets casters get in their debuffs. Saves time, does some kneeling... regardless, that's what I saw when I scrolled through my logs.

spiral frost
# 
  CS: +515 - TD: +446 + CvA: +19 + d100: +83 == +171
  Warding failed!
  The gigas disciple is stricken for 45 points of damage!
   ... 3 points of damage!
   Minor burns to abdomen.  Looks painful.```
```A cloud of flame-hued petals drifts from the edge of the heart-shaped chakram, striking a withered shadow-cloaked draugr!
  CS: +528 - TD: +382 + CvA: +18 + d100: +24 == +188
  Warding failed!
  The shadow-cloaked draugr is stricken for 85 points of damage!
The shadow-cloaked draugr's fibrillar entanglement blazes up like a beacon, amplifying the force of the incoming strike!
   ... 8 points of damage!
   Burst of flames to left arm burns skin bright red.
   The shadow-cloaked draugr strains as if burdened by some invisible force.```
Seems to be working against 1630 for me.
versed ridge
#

Did anything trigger it before? Has to be a fresh group to repeat what I observed.

#

I'll watch it closer with this group when I do another hunt later.

spiral frost
#

Don't believe anything did. I'm the only one in here.

versed ridge
#

Another possible undocumented feature: there was no CA messaging when shield-maiden was sniped from hiding. CA messaging triggered on next cast, which was 217. There was more than one shield-maiden in the room, but this was first action by my team, and there was no CA deluge messaging for a shield-maiden until later.

floral marsh
#

Solo:

  CS: +454 - TD: +381 + CvA: +19 + d100: +99 == +191
  Warding failed!
  One of the snowy vines wrap around a grim gigas skald, attempting to impale whatever it can with its thorns!
   ... 33 points of damage!
   ... 20 points of damage!
   Well placed strike shatters a rib!
   ... 15 points of damage!
   Well aimed shot, punctures upper arm!
   ... 15 points of damage!
   Strike pierces gall bladder!
  That's gotta hurt!
   ... 15 points of damage!
   Near miss!  Cool blast to the lower back and the gigas skald staggers.
The surroundings advance upon a grim gigas skald with relentless fury!
  CS: +454 - TD: +381 + CvA: +19 + d100: +42 == +134
  Warding failed!
  One of the snowy vines wrap around a grim gigas skald, attempting to impale whatever it can with its thorns!
   ... 21 points of damage!
The murky haze surrounding a grim gigas skald seems to attract the blows of the furious onslaught.
   ... 15 points of damage!
   Slash across right eye!
  Hope the left is working.
The murky haze surrounding a grim gigas skald seems to attract the blows of the furious onslaught.
   ... 10 points of damage!
   Strike through the palm!
The murky haze surrounding a grim gigas skald seems to attract the blows of the furious onslaught.
   ... 10 points of damage!
   Nice puncture to the back, just grazed the spine!
The murky haze surrounding a grim gigas skald seems to attract the blows of the furious onslaught.
   ... 10 points of damage!
   The gigas skald just got the cold shoulder!
The surroundings advance upon a stunted halfling bloodspeaker with relentless fury!
  CS: +454 - TD: +388 + CvA: +25 + d100: +88 == +179
  Warding failed!
  One of the snowy vines wrap around a stunted halfling bloodspeaker, attempting to impale whatever it can with its thorns!
   ... 30 points of damage!
   ... 25 points of damage!
   Damaging strike to chest, several ribs shattered!
   The halfling bloodspeaker is stunned!
   ... 30 points of damage!
   Fine shot pierces jugular vein!  The brain wonders where all its oxygen went, briefly.
A stunted halfling bloodspeaker's eyes bulge as she stares toward the heavens, mouthing a gurgling prayer as she succumbs to death.
A silver light faintly flickers around a stunted halfling bloodspeaker, then fades.
A subtle light fades from a stunted halfling bloodspeaker's eyes.
A series of purple lines suddenly appears on a stunted halfling bloodspeaker's face, quickly racing towards the center of her forehead before detaching and dissipating in the air.```
#

Group:

  CS: +454 - TD: +326 + CvA: -10 + d100: +64 == +182
  Warding failed!
  A cluster of hot debris collides with a brawny gigas shield-maiden!
   ... 31 points of damage!
   ... 2 points of damage!
   Strike glances off the chest.
   ... 7 points of damage!
   Light blow to right leg.
In response to the vibrations, a brawny gigas shield-maiden's skin seems to discolor and harden, lending the shield-maiden unnatural durability!
A brawny gigas shield-maiden is unharmed by the impact!
   ... 2 points of damage!
   Minor burns to abdomen.  Looks painful.
The surroundings advance upon a tattooed gigas berserker with relentless fury!
  CS: +454 - TD: +333 + CvA: +10 + d100: +70 == +201
  Warding failed!
  A cluster of hot debris collides with a tattooed gigas berserker!
   ... 35 points of damage!
   ... 35 points of damage!
   Hard blow to the gigas berserker's back causes him to cry out in pain!
   The gigas berserker is stunned!
In response to the vibrations, a tattooed gigas berserker's skin seems to discolor and harden, lending the berserker unnatural durability!
A tattooed gigas berserker is unharmed by the impact!
A tattooed gigas berserker is unharmed by the impact!
   ... 20 points of damage!
   Nasty burns to left arm.  Gonna need lots of butter.
The surroundings advance upon a heavily armored battle mastodon with relentless fury!
  CS: +454 - TD: +290 + CvA: +25 + d100: +37 == +226
  Warding failed!
  One of the large, pointed slivers of hot debris hits a heavily armored battle mastodon!
   ... 40 points of damage!
   ... 20 points of damage!
   Strike pierces forearm!
   The armored battle mastodon is stunned!
   ... 20 points of damage!
   Strike to temple! Saved by a thick skull!
   ... 30 points of damage!
   Deft strike to abdomen penetrates several useful organs!
   ... 20 points of damage!
   Nasty burns to chest make you wish you never heard of heartburn.
The surroundings advance upon a heavily armored battle mastodon with relentless fury!
  CS: +454 - TD: +302 + CvA: +25 + d100: +57 == +234
  Warding failed!
  A heavily armored battle mastodon is struck by a sharp piece of hot debris!
   ... 41 points of damage!
   ... 25 points of damage!
   Vicious strike punctures intestines!
   The armored battle mastodon is stunned!
   ... 20 points of damage!
   Strike pierces forearm!
   ... 20 points of damage!
   Strike pierces forearm!
   ... 25 points of damage!
   Flames incinerate right leg to the bone.  Not a pleasant sight.
   It is knocked to the ground!
The surroundings advance upon a tattooed gigas berserker with relentless fury!
  CS: +454 - TD: +336 + CvA: +10 + d100: +9 == +137
  Warding failed!
  A tattooed gigas berserker is struck by a sharp piece of hot debris!
   ... 22 points of damage!
   ... 10 points of damage!
   Nice puncture to the abdomen, just missed vital organs!
   ... 5 points of damage!
   Minor puncture to the chest.
   ... 5 points of damage!
   Strike to left hand breaks a fingernail!
   ... 15 points of damage!
   Burst of flames to right eye incinerates eyelid.  Gruesome.
   The gigas berserker is stunned!
#

Thats with 126 ranger and 105 summoning lore ranks

versed ridge
floral marsh
versed ridge
#

But that is not the problem I am trying to describe, unless the setup is guaranteed fresh creature (two creatures minimum, step into a room, hit the first target with an AoE.... and check for deluge messaging and damage on both.

floral marsh
#

Ahh okay!

hallow trail
#

The deluge messaging also happens when the critter attacks and it seems the check for the buff only ever happens once (whether they are attacked or are doing the attacking), so it's possible they attacked an ungrouped person, the game decided they didn't get a buff, then just weren't buffed because they already did their check.

I tested this myself just now. I let a solo character be attacked, I brought in my group and attacked the critter and no buff messaging.

#

This also could lead to all sorts of problems. What if a large group is running through an area (leaving the area or moves to the next room because someone is already in the room), the critter attacks this large group, gets their massive buff, and a solo/small group comes along to kill the critter and are facing a buffed critter.

Unless the buff messaging is just for flavor and only triggers once and the critter's buff is updated every time it is attacked or it attacks.

opal root
#

Not that it's common but I also suspect some occur message while hidden for example I just did a little mini group run to test something and I killed and searched 10 kiramon stalkers and in that same timeframe I only have 1 cascade of transcendent power from a stalker in my log which seems odd.

It's possible that they were attacking and ignored by other characters but I doubt it for all of them.

opal root
# versed ridge Ok, so possible bug or undocumented feature... that contributes to my impression...

335 definitely sets it off for me, 316 does not though.

Your skin is suffused with a subtle gold glow as you pray to your patron for assistance with Divine Wrath.
Your spell is ready.
You gesture at a disfigured hive thrall.
Bloodstained light spills down from the heavens in an undulating deluge, bathing a disfigured hive thrall's form in a cascade of transcendent power!
As you pour your soul into an appeal to Luukos, you know that you are heard.  Your skin prickles slightly all over your body, and a deep, resonant hiss echoes through your skull.```
formal shoal
#

I'm weighing a couple of different options here for making the crit reduction feel better.

#
  1. Reducing physical (crush/slash/puncture) damage slightly more than resource-requiring (steam, heat, cold, electrical, disintegrate, plasma, disruption, impact, unbalance, grapple, vacuum, acid), or
  2. Reducing the ceiling of crits based on your group size.
#

I think either would probably help things feel more fair between weapon users and casters, but I'd like to get thoughts.

opal root
#

Some deity specific spells use crush/slash/puncture crit tables so you'd create a professional imbalance based on choice across all ascension.

grim wadi
#

Lower crit ceiling seems better across the board if those are the two options, but it depends how that works with melee/ spell damage, pure concussion, flares, and everything else. Hard for me to choose.

#

I think the main thing is just making spell damage cycles not get suppressed as much as they are at the moment, at least until you get into large group sizes

versed ridge
opal root
# versed ridge What about the secondary targets?

Not that I can see. Reading back over your post you seem to be right, open casting does not give the messaging until you cast directly at the creature. So I'm not sure if it's applying anything before the messaging. That being said I'm also just in general not seeing the padding being an issue for my spells in a small group of 2.

versed ridge
#

FWIW, this is the log of what I saw that made me question what happening with CA on secondary targets. Log is from my empath's perspective and I use combatbrief, but it shows when the deluge messaging was triggered. Damage from 335 and 1630 seemed higher than expected with CA, along with Volley. The lack of CA messaging from the rogue's first shot is suspect, too.

spiral frost
# formal shoal 1) Reducing physical (crush/slash/puncture) damage slightly more than resource-r...

Option 1 seems like it might work in theory, though there are outliers like Spike Thorn or various cleric/paladin spells when converted to Cholen/Imaera/Leya/Luukos/Onar being puncture-based and getting hit too hard while still requiring resources. (I'm assuming that "resource-requiring" here means "uses mana or stamina.")

Option 2 depends on exactly what the ceiling of crits would be, but has its own challenges no matter what that ceiling is. If it were capped at...

  • 3 or lower: This would result in roughly the same scenario as now with an enormous hit to spells with multiple damage cycles, since they'd neither be crit killing nor dealing much damage.
  • 4: Nothing can kill with a rank 4 crit except puncture to the eye, so it would be very advantageous for players to lean on anything puncture via Spike Thorn, archery, daggers, Volley, the same cleric/paladin spells as earlier, and Precision to make various melee weapons hit puncture, among other things I might be forgetting.
  • 5: Lightning joins puncture in ruling the roost because of nerve kills.
  • 6 or higher: Most things can kill at rank 6 and up, so groups would basically feel unaffected.
versed ridge
rose atlas
#

At this point, I think I would prefer some of the suggestions like increased HP or damage shield. I'm not sure what the original version was on test, but it felt better (at least in ojand/eldur) than anything tested in prime.

I'd like to find a way to keep the game fun while still adding increased difficulty in groups, but the things tried so far have not been fun for me.

frail cove
#

309 - grouped with 6

Your spell is ready.
J>
You gesture at a horned basalt grotesque.
The evanescent shield shrouding a horned basalt grotesque fades briefly.
You hear the soft tinkle of rolling dice, followed by the sound of coins dropping!
[SMR result: 227 (Open d100: 93, Bonus: 45)]
Shadows deepen all around, enveloping a horned basalt grotesque in night's embrace!
Dancing with dreamlike languor, tongues of black and silver flames sear the basalt grotesque for 35 points of damage!
   ... 4 points of damage!
   Minor burns to chest.  That hurts a bit.
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.
(Forcing stance down to guarded)```
```You gesture at a cadaverous tatterdemalion ghast.
[SMR result: 216 (Open d100: 67, Bonus: 59)]
Shadows deepen all around, enveloping a cadaverous tatterdemalion ghast in night's embrace!
Dancing with dreamlike languor, tongues of black and silver flames sear the tatterdemalion ghast for 35 points of damage!
   ... 4 points of damage!
   Minor burns to chest.  That hurts a bit.
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.
(Forcing stance down to guarded)```
#

110 - grouped with 6

You gesture at an ashen patrician vampire.
Bloodstained light spills down from the heavens in an undulating deluge, bathing an ashen patrician vampire's form in a cascade of transcendent power!
Bands of spectral mist ripple and surge beneath an ashen patrician vampire!
[SMR result: 239 (Open d100: 173)]
   ... 9 points of damage!
   Pop!  Kneecap wrenched.
   It is knocked to the ground!

 ** Your faewood scepter bursts alight with leaping tongues of holy fire! **
   Consumed by the hallowed flames, an ashen patrician vampire is ravaged for 61 points of damage!
   ... 4 points of damage!
   Minor burns to left leg.  That hurts a bit.
Cast Roundtime 2 Seconds.```

```You utter a light chant and raise your hands, beckoning the lesser spirits to aid you with the Unbalance spell...
Your spell is ready.
You gesture at a smouldering skeletal dreadsteed.
Bands of spectral mist ripple and surge beneath a smouldering skeletal dreadsteed!
[SMR result: 203 (Open d100: 13, Bonus: 123)]
   ... 1 point of damage!
   The skeletal dreadsteed's arm twists oddly but snaps right back.
Cast Roundtime 2 Seconds.
(Forcing stance down to guarded)```
#

1115 - grouped with 6

Your spell is ready.
You gesture at a gaudy phantasmic conjurer.
Your mental command surges outward, echoing your need to the stray spirits nearby...
  CS: +475 - TD: +478 + CvA: +25 + d100: +98 == +120
  Warding failed!
A nebulous haze shimmers into view around a gaudy phantasmic conjurer, plunging inward to envelop his right eye!
   ... 1 point of damage!
   Quick strike to the face!
   Just nicked an eyelid!
   ... 1 point of damage!
   Quick strike to the face!
   Just nicked an eyelid!
   ... 9 points of damage!
   Nasty strike to the right eye causes it to dim a moment.
Cloudy tendrils writhe throughout the conjurer's form, ravaging him for 15 points of damage!
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.```
```You focus your thoughts while chanting the mystical phrase for Wither...
Your spell is ready.
You gesture at an infernal death knight.
An infernal death knight is awakened by your attack!
Bloodstained light spills down from the heavens in an undulating deluge, bathing an infernal death knight's form in a cascade of transcendent power!
Your mental command surges outward, echoing your need to the stray spirits nearby...
  CS: +475 - TD: +409 + CvA: -12 + d100: +83 == +137
  Warding failed!
A nebulous haze shimmers into view around an infernal death knight, plunging inward to envelop his chest!
   ... 4 points of damage!
   Flesh painfully vaporized from side!
   ... 4 points of damage!
   Flesh painfully vaporized from side!
   ... 4 points of damage!
   Flesh painfully vaporized from side!
Cloudy tendrils writhe throughout the knight's form, ravaging him for 23 points of damage!
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.```
chilly zenith
#

Wither is a pretty endroll-dependant spell and I don't know that that character has the CS chops to really make much of a statement about CA/Wither

frail cove
#

917 - grouped with 6

Your spell is ready.
You gesture at an ashen patrician vampire.
The ground beneath an ashen patrician vampire begins to boil violently!
Fiery debris explodes from the ground beneath an ashen patrician vampire!
[SMR result: 191 (Open d100: 43, Bonus: 56)]
   ... 4 points of damage!
   Minor burns to left hand.  Ouch.

 ** Rainbow-hued energy arcs outward from your walking stick and spirals midair before wrapping you in a cloud of multihued ribbons that gradually dissipates. **
You feel 17 mana surge into you!
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.
(Forcing stance down to guarded)```
```Your hands glow with power as you invoke the phrase for Earthen Fury...
Your spell is ready.
You gesture at a horned basalt grotesque.
The evanescent shield shrouding a horned basalt grotesque fades briefly.
The ground beneath a horned basalt grotesque begins to boil violently!
Craggy debris explodes from the ground beneath a horned basalt grotesque!
[SMR result: 167 (Open d100: 22, Bonus: 36)]
   ... 6 points of damage!
   Blow grazes right leg.
You feel the unnatural surge of necrotic power wane away.
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.
(Forcing stance down to guarded)```
chilly zenith
#

The 917 results look flat out abysmal for sure

frail cove
#

high end roll 312's seem to work well still.
312 - grouped with 6:

Your spell is ready.
You gesture at a smouldering skeletal dreadsteed.
A single dim, stormy grey globe springs to life in your left hand.  With a flick of your left wrist, the globe dances through the air toward a smouldering skeletal dreadsteed!
  CS: +511 - TD: +387 + CvA: +25 + d100: +48 == +197
  Warding failed!
The orb squarely impacts a smouldering skeletal dreadsteed, discharging the stormy grey energy over its entire being for 83 points of damage!
  The stormy grey energy pulses for an additional 58 points of damage ...
  ... dissipating with a final discharge of 34 points of damage!
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.
(Forcing stance down to guarded)```
```You chant a reverent litany, clasping your hands while focusing upon the Fervent Reproach spell...
Your spell is ready.
You gesture at an infernal death knight.
A single dim, stormy grey globe springs to life in your left hand.  With a flick of your left wrist, the globe dances through the air toward an infernal death knight!
You hear the soft tinkle of rolling dice, followed by the sound of coins dropping!
  CS: +526 - TD: +374 + CvA: -12 + d100: +91 == +231
  Warding failed!
The orb squarely impacts an infernal death knight, discharging the stormy grey energy over his entire being for 108 points of damage!
  The stormy grey energy pulses for an additional 75 points of damage ...
  ... dissipating with a final discharge of 45 points of damage!
He clutches at his armored chest.  His flaming eyes blaze precipitously as white-hot fire erupts from his floating head, consuming it in a burst of blinding light!  The headless corpse sinks to the ground, unmoving.
An infernal death knight appears less intimidated as a haze of grey mist rises from him and dissipates.
You sense Ronan's condemnation of an infernal death knight wane.
The death knight suddenly stops moving light-footedly.
An infernal death knight looks momentarily uneasy, but quickly recovers.
You feel the unnatural surge of necrotic power wane away.
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.```
spiral frost
#

And that's while only getting half the 312 damage cycles since you're not channeling.

craggy raptor
#

whatever fix you choose, I hope it will address that this did not scale as you seem to have intended, with small groups (even just 2) getting hit much harder than anticipated (especially certain spells/types of damage it seems).

#

leaving the current system and just making it feel more "fair" between different types of users would completely miss that my group of two is feeling FAR more than "an extra layer of tissue paper".

For a group of 2, you're just going to see a bit more AS from creatures and touch of padding, like an extra layer of tissue paper.

native sky
lusty dragon
#

I mean as long as it scales reasonably, the size shouldn't matter terribly

opal root
gusty oxide
#

I'm having the same experience as Tijay in HW villages on my 8m cleric in a group of 2.

frail cove
#

I’ll take one of my clerics out with a group of 2 in HW and see how it looks later tonight and post some snippets

little breach
#

for a group of 4, some of the swings are rough:

With effortless ease born of martial training, an infernal death knight swings a massive black ora sword adorned with a trio of blue-black diamonds at you!
  AS: +705 vs DS: +480 with AvD: +42 + d100 roll: +82 = +349
   ... and hits for 170 points of damage!
   Powerful slash leaves you without a right leg!
Your sense of faith and conviction wanes.
floral marsh
#

I think death Knights have a natural AS buff as well?

craggy raptor
formal shoal
#

There haven't been.

#

I'm prepping for travel, but should have some time for GS later today for a bit.

formal shoal
#

With the stipulation that this isn't a democratic process (sorry!) I would like to get people's thoughts on using scaling resistance vs. a crit ceiling to accomplish making creatures slightly more challenging for grouped players.

floral marsh
#

Would this replace the current system or be in addition to?

formal shoal
#

It would replace the crit padding.

#

I am leaning toward the resistance piece, as I think it will still allow for more crit kills, which always feel fun.

floral marsh
#

Any way to put up one option on the test server for a few days and then do the other one for a few days so we can test and give feedback using data?

formal shoal
#

Yeah, this would be tested while the current system remains in place. It probably doesn't need to be a few days, but yes.

floral marsh
#

I just mentioned a few days for each would allow more people to play around with it in case people weren't available soon. But I think we've got people that are able to hop on and do impromptu testing.

cerulean lotus
#

i like the scaling resistance I think, but echoing concerns about it negatively impacting deity/spell choices if resistance to mechanical crits is higher than the others

spiral frost
#

I actually find the game easier now than a month ago because I almost never see a room of more than like three creatures in the higher level parts of the Hinterwilds. Yeah, sure, they take more hits and they swing harder and I get a free 1000 exp boost if I somehow forget to stance dance, but it's still three creatures. It's never scary, not when I'm used to creature numbers that were--this is the crucial part--greater than the number of targets for AoE abilities not named Carn's Cry. That meant attacks might actually slip through.

versed ridge
#

Which was essentially... lowering the crit ceiling doesn't matter at the top levels (say, level 9 to level 6). It's still death for most areas.

formal shoal
#

Resistance feels like my preference.

lusty dragon
#

Can any of the solutions be implemented as a chance to apply, rather than a consistent effect? Something like "a (5 * group size)% chance to apply x% resistance / Y crit cap / Z crit padding)?"

#

Whereby the net effect is still overall reduced efficacy, scaling with group size, but still leaves opportunities for "normal"/"big" hits

versed ridge
#

To be honest, I chose battle standards on most of my characters based on Gyres messaging alone. Damage type was about 5% of the consideration.

lusty dragon
#

I think having it not be every attack would go a long way towards helping with the elusive feels aspect

spiral frost
#

That would come into play with the resistance route or the crit cap route.

versed ridge
#

IMO, as long as spell effects aren't affected more or less than the others, I think it's fine / moot.

#

But I think there are creatures that already have higher resistances to slash/crush/puncture, which already is noticeable with some deity selections. That matters less today with the removal of most immunites (cold vs undead, puncture vs noncorporeal, etc), but there's still a mechanics component to deity selection that I hope to minimize or remove.

formal shoal
#

A crit cap might be more fair, but I do worry about it making the game feel more like fighting against HP pools.

versed ridge
#

Can a scaling crit cap be done based on number in group, or is that effectively scaling resistance?

spiral frost
#

I think I need to understand more about the rationale why crush/slash/puncture would be hit harder than other damage types in the first place. Puncture I actually kind of understand because it has the game's lowest threshold for crit kills, but crush and slash are on par with most damage types.

If it's because many players have said that melee seems largely unaffected, well, that's just a quirk of the entirety of GS mechanics; melee attacks typically reach much higher endrolls than other forms of attack, so they can pump out sheer numbers of raw damage ("raw damage" being the actual wiki phrase and part of the melee damage formula) regardless of the crit. Raw damage in AS vs. DS calculations would be the thing to hit, not specific damage types.

formal shoal
#

That's exactly what it would be.

cerulean lotus
#

will that scaling cap start at groupcount=2 or closer to the previously communicated groupcount=5?

versed ridge
#

If the scale starts so low that it's near to zero at groupcount=2... does that matter?

formal shoal
#

I actually like the scaling starting at group, rather than group-of-5, but YMMV.

cerulean lotus
#

guess it all depends on the scaling

versed ridge
#

I mean, if the direction is to scale, then... I think that scale starts as close to 'zero' as possible. A 'zero group' is group of 1 [i.e, solo], so... a tiny amount at group of 2?

cerulean lotus
#

2 - 5 adds x per, 5 - 10 add y per, 10+ add z per?

lusty dragon
#

What if the damage resistance effect of whatever form was a separate buff that degraded over time?

Champion's Durability
MIN((5 * group size), 50)% chance to apply MIN((5 * group size), 50)% resistance to a given attack (*not* per instance of damage)

Reduced by 10% every 2 seconds, falls off entirely after 10 seconds```
Pros:
- Because it doesn't apply to every attack, some normal big hits can sneak through. We are champions ourselves, after all. Good feels
- Fades over time, reflecting an improving understanding / ability to overcome their increased resistance
- Still effects an overall "slow down" of combat proportional to group size
elder heart
cerulean lotus
#

it's not 2-3 regardless of group size though is it?

opal root
spiral frost
# cerulean lotus it's not 2-3 regardless of group size though is it?

I truly don't understand it, but like... if I'm on my own at 4 AM or whatever, I almost never get more than 3 creatures at a time in the Spirit Walk/Greatchamber area. But if I'm on my own at 9 PM, they can at least sometimes go to 4 or 5. I suppose maybe they're leaking in from other people spawning them in the Pits, but not really sure.

It also "feels" like there's a tipping point where seeing just one or two extra characters who aren't in my group wandering the area kicks spawn rates way up. Auchand said that's not the case, but it really makes me wonder.

formal shoal
#

Just from observing mongen messaging, it doesn't seem to be the case, no.

#

The tweaks are live on Test. Collecting data right now.

spiral frost
#

So far this feels like the opposite of live, where melee seems really bad while magic is almost full strength and flares are... good enough, I suppose.

# 
You swing a perfect starsong warblade at a shining winged disir!
A shining winged disir's aura absorbs some of the damage!
  AS: +723 vs DS: +513 with AvD: +36 + d100 roll: +62 = +308
   ... and hit for 11 points of damage!
   Close shave!
   The winged disir takes a quick step back.

 ** Necrotic energy from your starsong warblade overflows into you! **
   You feel energized!

Your starsong warblade suddenly lights up with hundreds of tiny blue sparks!
Bloodstained light spills down from the heavens in an undulating deluge, bathing a shining winged disir's form in a cascade of transcendent power!
Particles of dust and soot rise from the floor at your feet as you release a pulsating, platinum ripple of energy toward a shining winged disir!
  CS: +573 - TD: +434 + CvA: +25 + d100: +95 == +259
  Warding failed!
  The winged disir is cloaked in a blinding platinum light and assailed for 131 points of damage!
A shining winged disir's aura absorbs some of the damage!
   ... 20 points of damage!
   Skin blasted away leaving exposed and bloody muscle!
A shining winged disir's aura absorbs some of the damage!
   ... 3 points of damage!
   Strike to the winged disir's right arm sprains biceps.
You feel the unnatural surge of necrotic power wane away.```
Both melee and magic on the same creature and same swing courtesy of blink flares so you can see what I mean. Of course, that's a huge group. Picking off a few characters to see what happens...
# 
You swing a perfect starsong warblade at a withered shadow-cloaked draugr!
A withered shadow-cloaked draugr's aura absorbs some of the damage!
  AS: +723 vs DS: +528 with AvD: +38 + d100 roll: +53 = +286
   ... and hit for 56 points of damage!
   Blow to chest causes the shadow-cloaked draugr's heart to skip a beat.

 ** Sparks of crackling energy race along your fingertips, shocking a withered shadow-cloaked draugr with a brilliant flash!  A surge of spiritual power rushes through your veins! **
A withered shadow-cloaked draugr's aura absorbs some of the damage!
   ... 5 points of damage!
   Mild electric jolt sends the shadow-cloaked draugr into spasms.

Your starsong warblade suddenly lights up with hundreds of tiny blue sparks!
Bloodstained light spills down from the heavens in an undulating deluge, bathing a withered shadow-cloaked draugr's form in a cascade of transcendent power!
Particles of dust and soot rise from the floor at your feet as you release a pulsating, platinum ripple of energy toward a withered shadow-cloaked draugr!
  CS: +570 - TD: +459 + CvA: +18 + d100: +76 == +205
  Warding failed!
  The shadow-cloaked draugr is cloaked in a blinding platinum light and assailed for 100 points of damage!
A withered shadow-cloaked draugr's aura absorbs some of the damage!
   ... 25 points of damage!
   A raw, red hole is drilled in the shadow-cloaked draugr's chest by a powerful bolt!
A withered shadow-cloaked draugr's aura absorbs some of the damage!
   ... 5 points of damage!
   Chest spasm makes it hard for the shadow-cloaked draugr to breathe.```
Down to 6 characters.
# 
An eyeless black valravn's aura absorbs some of the damage!
  AS: +713 vs DS: +418 with AvD: +39 + d100 roll: +11 = +345
   ... and hit for 87 points of damage!
   Right arm ripped from socket at the elbow!
   The black valravn is stunned!

 ** A faint hum courses through you as arcs of electricity coil around your arms, jolting an eyeless black valravn in a vivid burst!  The current resonates with your spirit, boosting your energy! **
An eyeless black valravn's aura absorbs some of the damage!
   ... 20 points of damage!

Your starsong warblade suddenly lights up with hundreds of tiny blue sparks!
Bloodstained light spills down from the heavens in an undulating deluge, bathing an eyeless black valravn's form in a cascade of transcendent power!
Particles of dust and soot rise from the floor at your feet as you release a pulsating, platinum ripple of energy toward an eyeless black valravn!
  CS: +570 - TD: +490 + CvA: +25 + d100: +13 == +118
  Warding failed!
  The black valravn is cloaked in a blinding platinum light and assailed for 67 points of damage!
As the radiance dims around black valravn's body, its shadow stretches long and strange as unsettling silence fills the air.  Heralded by a sound like the stirring of great wings, the noise of your surroundings crashes back down upon you, more noticeable for its brief absence.```
Kind of a bad example because it died before the latter 317 cycles, but that's 5. Still a lot of sheer damage reduction, but, on the other hand, at 5, AS attacks *can* just directly crit kill:
```You swing a perfect starsong warblade at a withered shadow-cloaked draugr!
A withered shadow-cloaked draugr's aura absorbs some of the damage!
  AS: +703 vs DS: +491 with AvD: +38 + d100 roll: +61 = +311
   ... and hit for 73 points of damage!
   You hear several snaps as the shadow-cloaked draugr's neck is broken in several places.```
#

I guess that assumes the thing can be crit killed. Hard hit to take against angargeists or primordials.

Maybe I'll test a bit more later, but breaking for lunch. Bolts seemed really comparatively powerful on test.

formal shoal
#

Good feedback.

little breach
#

so hopefully all this testing isn't just being done by people with high end gear

spiral frost
#

Yeah, we definitely need more varied groups. (Although, in my case, the outlier is more high end exp and/or group synergy than high end gear. The gear's pretty mid at best on my non-Leafi characters. One of my wizards doesn't even use a runestaff and so gets literally nothing out of her weapon for testing purposes, but does have 28 extra bolt AS from Ascension, 27 from grouping with Kai's, and 15 from grouping with Benediction. ...of course, in the live game I still see other wizards roaming with like 220 more bolt AS than mine due to max enhancives and wild SKs, but, ya know. 👀)

formal shoal
#

I think maybe the differentiation between physical and magical damage may be unnecessary.

versed ridge
#

I'd test with a group of 4 (or 5, with a friend), but unavailable until tomorrow. Day job and evening work. Only my paladin has quasi high end gear (although no material transmute, so maybe not high end by some definitions)

floral marsh
#

I can hop on tonight after work if it still needs to be limit tested with the max group with ordinary gear.

formal shoal
#

That would be good.

craggy raptor
#

is the plan still that small groups should see only a minor difference or should we adjust our expectations? I'm still a little confused as to whether the goal here is to limit the power of large groups vs. discourage even small groups

formal shoal
#

Minor diff, yes.

lusty dragon
spark canyon
#

I still think that mobs need a new gear system

versed ridge
#

My warrior and paladin who know disarm support this. So does my rogue... cuz mugging their gear will be a thing, right?

formal shoal
#

The ceiling gets lower as your group gets bigger.

versed ridge
floral marsh
#

It seems like empath damage has slightly increased over live

Live:

Veilogaer channels at a tattooed gigas berserker.
The force of Veilogaer's power warps the air as it surges toward a tattooed gigas berserker!
  CS: +491 - TD: +342 + CvA: +10 + d100: +46 == +205
  Warding failed!
A nebulous haze shimmers into view around a tattooed gigas berserker, plunging inward to envelop his abdomen!
   ... 9 points of damage!
   Flesh removed, forming a long gash across abdomen!
   ... 2 points of damage!
   Blast creates interesting designs on torso, but little damage.
   ... 2 points of damage!
   Blast creates interesting designs on torso, but little damage.

The force of Veilogaer's power warps the air as it surges toward a tattooed gigas berserker!
  CS: +491 - TD: +421 + CvA: +10 + d100: +88 == +168
  Warding failed!
A nebulous haze shimmers into view around a tattooed gigas berserker, plunging inward to envelop his back!
   ... 9 points of damage!
   Large patches of skin removed from back, giving glimpses of musculature beneath!
   ... 2 points of damage!
   Strips of flesh disappear from the gigas berserker's back.
   ... 2 points of damage!
   Strips of flesh disappear from the gigas berserker's back.```

Test:

The force of Veilogaer's power warps the air as it surges toward a tattooed gigas berserker!
CS: +489 - TD: +358 + CvA: +10 + d100: +62 == +203
Warding failed!
A nebulous haze shimmers into view around a tattooed gigas berserker, plunging inward to envelop her back!
A tattooed gigas berserker's aura absorbs some of the damage!
... 12 points of damage!
Large patches of skin removed from back, giving glimpses of musculature beneath!
A tattooed gigas berserker's aura absorbs some of the damage!
... 12 points of damage!
Large patches of skin removed from back, giving glimpses of musculature beneath!
A tattooed gigas berserker's aura absorbs some of the damage!
... 35 points of damage!
Deep hole created in back, narrowly missing spinal cord!
The gigas berserker is stunned!
Cloudy tendrils writhe throughout the berserker's form, ravaging her for 72 points of damage!

The force of Veilogaer's power warps the air as it surges toward a niveous giant warg!
CS: +489 - TD: +396 + CvA: +25 + d100: +69 == +187
Warding failed!
A nebulous haze shimmers into view around a niveous giant warg, plunging inward to envelop its right hand!
A niveous giant warg's aura absorbs some of the damage!
... 10 points of damage!
Finger on right hand vaporized, leaving the giant warg unable to count quite as high.
A niveous giant warg's aura absorbs some of the damage!
... 10 points of damage!
Finger on right hand vaporized, leaving the giant warg unable to count quite as high.
A niveous giant warg's aura absorbs some of the damage!
... 20 points of damage!
Light blast to right hand drills a hole straight through palm, just large enough to hold that spare wand.
Cloudy tendrils writhe throughout the warg's form, ravaging it for 80 points of damage!```

#

Bolt doesn't seem changed?

Wizard

Live:

Severac hurls a roaring ball of fire at a tattooed gigas berserker!
  AS: +510 vs DS: +391 with AvD: +48 + d100 roll: +89 = +256
   ... and hits for 75 points of damage!
   Extreme heat causes a tattooed gigas berserker's right arm to expand and snap.  That must hurt!
The roaring ball of fire strikes a tattooed gigas berserker, blossoming into a much larger sphere of flame upon impact.
   ... 1 point of damage!
   Minor burns to right arm.  That hurts a bit.

A burst of flame from Severac's roaring ball of fire flies off and hits a tattooed gigas berserker.
   ... 15 points of damage!
   Burst of flames to left arm toasts skin to elbows.
   The gigas berserker is stunned!```

Test:
```Severac gestures at a tattooed gigas berserker.
Bloodstained light spills down from the heavens in an undulating deluge, bathing a tattooed gigas berserker's form in a cascade of transcendent power!
Severac hurls a roaring ball of fire at a tattooed gigas berserker!
A tattooed gigas berserker's aura absorbs some of the damage!
  AS: +475 vs DS: +345 with AvD: +59 + d100 roll: +85 = +274
   ... and hits for 85 points of damage!
   The lower half of a tattooed gigas berserker's right leg is almost completely burned away.
The roaring ball of fire strikes a tattooed gigas berserker, blossoming into a much larger sphere of flame upon impact.
A tattooed gigas berserker's aura absorbs some of the damage!
   ... 15 points of damage!
   Burst of flames char chest a crispy black.
In response to the searing heat, a tattooed gigas berserker's skin seems to discolor and harden, lending the berserker unnatural durability!```
#

Melee looks really nerfed?

Live:

Evlakaan swings a curved black ora falchion at a tattooed gigas berserker!
  AS: +614 vs DS: +469 with AvD: +36 + d100 roll: +79 = +260
   ... and hits for 58 points of damage!
   Quick slash to the gigas berserker's upper right arm!
   Just a nick.

 ** Necrotic energy from Evlakaan's black ora falchion flares up momentarily! **
   Evlakaan appears to gain succour from the unnatural energy!

 ** The shadows surrounding Evlakaan's black ora falchion lash out with a crack of greenish-black essence! **
   ... 12 points of damage!
   Strips of flesh flayed from the gigas berserker's back.```

Test:

Evlakaan swings a curved black ora falchion at a tattooed gigas berserker!
A tattooed gigas berserker's aura absorbs some of the damage!
AS: +558 vs DS: +385 with AvD: +36 + d100 roll: +31 = +240
... and hits for 24 points of damage!
Blow leaves an imprint on the gigas berserker's chest!

** As Evlakaan's black ora falchion connects with the berserker, a low hiss is heard and the shadows strike with greenish-black essence fangs! **
A tattooed gigas berserker's aura absorbs some of the damage!
... 1 point of damage!
The gigas berserker's left eye swells suddenly, causing great pain.

** Evlakaan's black ora falchion pulses with a burst of plasma energy! **
A tattooed gigas berserker's aura absorbs some of the damage!
... 20 points of damage!
Intense arc of energy flays the gigas berserker's arm to the bone!

Bloodstained light spills down from the heavens in an undulating deluge, bathing a tattooed gigas berserker's form in a cascade of transcendent power!```

Live:

Mugged boldly accosts a tattooed gigas berserker!
Pearly light flares up suddenly from within Mugged!
Mugged swings a stout eonake falchion at a tattooed gigas berserker!
  AS: +611 vs DS: +385 with AvD: +36 + d100 roll: +30 = +292
   ... and hits for 100 points of damage!
   Amazing slash to the gigas berserker's belly!
   Nothing quite like that empty feeling inside.
Mugged swings a jade-hilted golvern dagger at a tattooed gigas berserker!
  AS: +606 vs DS: +385 with AvD: +13 + d100 roll: +71 = +305
   ... and hits for 25 points of damage!
   Minor puncture to the chest.

Test:

Mugged boldly accosts a tattooed gigas berserker!
Mugged swings a stout eonake falchion at a tattooed gigas berserker!
A tattooed gigas berserker's aura absorbs some of the damage!
  AS: +568 vs DS: +408 with AvD: +36 + d100 roll: +92 = +288
   ... and hits for 40 points of damage!
   Slash along the gigas berserker's lower back.
Mugged swings a jade-hilted golvern dagger at a tattooed gigas berserker!
A tattooed gigas berserker's aura absorbs some of the damage!
  AS: +578 vs DS: +408 with AvD: +22 + d100 roll: +30 = +222
   ... and hits for 25 points of damage!
   Hard slash to belly severs a few nerve endings.```
#

Live:

Aeliruit swings a small black ghezyte maul at a niveous giant warg!
  AS: +626 vs DS: +505 with AvD: +40 + d100 roll: +84 = +245
   ... and hits for 64 points of damage!
   Torn muscle in the giant warg's right leg!

Surprisingly, Aeliruit manages to effortlessly reverse his momentum and strike again!

Aeliruit swings a small black ghezyte maul at a niveous giant warg!
  AS: +626 vs DS: +505 with AvD: +40 + d100 roll: +81 = +242
   ... and hits for 71 points of damage!
   Crushing blow crumples the giant warg's nose!

Test:

Bloodstained light spills down from the heavens in an undulating deluge, bathing a niveous giant warg's form in a cascade of transcendent power!
Aeliruit swings a small black ghezyte maul at a niveous giant warg!
A niveous giant warg's aura absorbs some of the damage!
  AS: +600 vs DS: +457 with AvD: +38 + d100 roll: +31 = +212
   ... and hits for 24 points of damage!
   Smash to the kneecap.

 ** As Aeliruit's black ghezyte maul lands home, its edge seems to fold inward upon itself drawing everything it touches along with it! **
A niveous giant warg's aura absorbs some of the damage!
   ... 20 points of damage!
   Fingernails burst and blood sprays out!```
formal shoal
#

Thanks for doing those.

lusty dragon
#

Spent a bit of time on test, definitely feels better

#

Not exactly clear on how the crit cap is supposed to work, because I still landed a handful of R8s and R9s

floral marsh
#

Melee doesn't feel great on test at the moment.

versed ridge
#

Is this with your usual group size of 17 (ish?)?

floral marsh
#

Correct

formal shoal
#

Howso?

floral marsh
#

Live feels better in terms of damage compared to the end roll on a 2H. Just generally feeling. With the other changes already on live I am running out of mana a lot quicker then before and with these changes it would shorten it more. But maybe that's the intent.

native sky
#

I hope Tservin gets a chance to see how his 2 character duo does on TEST. It sounds as though the current live implementation is punishing him more than it was supposed to be

sage owl
# native sky I hope Tservin gets a chance to see how his 2 character duo does on TEST. It sou...

I will not. Honestly, my play time is so limited that I feel very fortunate to be able to get my weekly resources… it’s only because of SG release that I have really been more dedicated to hunting … zone is so challenging, but extremely rewarding. (Even if you randomly get one shotted every other hunt)

I usually try to avoid input, however, the current changes with CA has really adversely affected my group hunting (with others) when it’s between 3-5. After 6-7 (competent) hunters in my group, it’s pretty much the same, just slightly drawn out with more resources required. (Which is the intended purpose)

However, in groups of 3-5, the damage is so pitiful for other classes… I don’t see a reason to add them into my group. I rather just use my own efficient team than include another adventurer.

Unless they can “carry” , but if that’s the case… wouldn’t they also just hunt solo or in a smaller party for more benefit/rewards? (I.E. loot, experience, less risk since the mobs are weaker)

#

Which I find really unfortunate, because even less people will be able to enjoy higher content.

I love SG, just like how I loved HW before… the hunting grounds and all that really brings joy and happiness for me. The challenges and the rewards.

It saddens me a little that there is no incentive to share it. It’s quite the opposite. I feel punished to include others in my group because … I just can’t handle all the mob spawns by myself and watch someone else.

vernal dust
#

Are people not able to fry in a group?

sage owl
#

So I won’t.

Period.

floral marsh
#

Trying to put the feelings in to words the best way I would describe it is it feels like a grind now instead of being fun but difficult.

gusty oxide
#

For something that is going to change the future of your hunting patterns and styles, it might be worth taking the premium point hit on a character to get half your resources done so you could take an hour or so out to test the changes.

floral marsh
gusty oxide
#

Obviously it's a "you do you" but if I had concerns I'd definitely make trying them out on test a priority so I could voice concerns before the changes are released and that option goes away.

floral marsh
#

From what I've heard it seems like most people would be asking for slower ramping for groups 2-5 and then faster ramping through the cap from what's currently live. Along with making flares and ancillary attacks feel more impactful for the amount of currency that was spent on them.

formal shoal
#

That said, the goal of CA is not to kill MA groups (as a concept), either.

#

I've made some tweaks based on last night's testing.

#

Brought up magical damage resistance slightly, brought down physical damage resistance slightly.

frail cove
#

There's an added nuance that makes this very complex that everyone is "kind of" ignoring right now too.

It's almost impossible to balance this appropriately when the power scale in ascension grounds is nowhere near balanced across the characters.

There are characters that have 7.6m exp, freshly capped, with 500 AS/DS and 400 CS/TD ---> ANY scaling from baseline ascension makes it almost impossible for these characters. Even with no scaling, solo, the content is pretty darn difficult.

There are characters with 100m exp, rocking 900 AS/DS and 500-600 CS/TD---> These characters can carry a group of 5. Everyone else is just getting a hit in.

Without some way to scale the content for EXP.... the grouping/MA scale gets thrown off kilter too

(The other really really hard variable to scale against is gear, of course)

chilly zenith
#

People may need to adjust their expectations of low exp characters hunting ascension areas

formal shoal
#

I... sort of agree? I think the Boreal Forest is a great intro zone.

chilly zenith
#

Lulling people into a false sense of security so a cannibal can ambush them, I see your game.

native sky
formal shoal
#

I have often mulled converting the Sanctum to Ascension and having it be the official introductory Ascension zone.

#

The original goal of the Sanctum was to provide more challenging hunting.

native sky
frail cove
#

I've always been surprised Sanctum wasn't considered ascension... although i think it is kind of easy mode for fresh cap... might need to crank the dial a TINY bit .... please dont pitchfork and torch me, sanctum people

umbral wolf
#

Lets also take another approach/look from a different way.

HYPOTHETICALLY, for simplicity... A creature has 1000 HP, and I can deal 100 damage per second. That creature is dead in 10 seconds.
If I added 4 more characters to a group of 5 total, each of whom can deal 100 damage per second. That creature is dead in 2 seconds.

The goal is to move the needle slightly from the 2 seconds insta-clear aspect, and move the needle /closer/ to 10 seconds.

#

By the math, moving it completely to the aforementioned anticipated duration of creature longevity (anti-TTK), would be an 80% reduction in damage output!

frail cove
#

Everyone is over complicating this.... i think the only solution is to raise cap to 200 and add 10 more hunting grounds. ((ducks))

native sky
umbral wolf
#

OR, add in an area specific to group hunting, with much more resilient creatures

#

but, that may incentivize it too much

#

Worms, Wyrms, and Wyroms everywhere.

chilly zenith
#

What about instead of the scaling, have Ascension grounds spawn a tremendously difficult mob (or mobs) that hunt the big group (any group over 5). They won't attack non-members of the group unless attacked first. They won't stop following and attacking the group. Not every hunt, just a chance they can show up and make the big group's day difficult

umbral wolf
#

I think this is near the finish line, and not mutually exclusive to that as well.

frail cove
#

Yeah... i will say, Kudos to Auchand... Genuinely appreciate how you've been tweaking things and have been open to feedback coming from every direction while watching it all closely!

No debate, this was a near impossible task

formal shoal
#

Hey, we're all in this together.

chilly zenith
#

Let players inhabit the body of a boss mob and hunt Kontii's group, specifically

formal shoal
#

Except for me, because I'm a solo warmage and I make with the pew pews.

#

Despite only being at 16.4M experience, thank you very much. 😛

frail cove
chilly zenith
#

Hey 2x cap's no slouch.

native sky
#

As long as that boss mob doesn't stop Kontii from helping carry people through the Wyrm/Sybil!

formal shoal
#

I really want to get my paladin capped so that I can experience fresh cap again.

#

Since I finished Dodge, it doesn't feel like I die much unless my connection does.

#

(I have almost died once on this plane.)

#

But somehow, I survived three banshees wailing on me. (Yes, banshee pun.)

quasi skiff
#

i thought you meant like, you were still hunting the rift at 16+m exp but then i realized you meant like, ✈️

chilly zenith
#

Yeah my brain went "the rift what" to "oh god"

formal shoal
#

I was surrounded by banshees and then the plane wifi shut off for a second.

frail cove
#

I might be unique in that I dont care if I get wiped every now and then!

The most fun i've had in the game the last few years is whent he wyrm hunts or sybils go sideways... it's like "woah! we're actually playing the game right now!" That was awesome

With salves and mana spellup and how quick recovery is.... the downside of dying is so small these days

chilly zenith
#

Oh on that note. The Scatter is also a wonderful upskill to ASC area!

formal shoal
#

I think the Scatter is a cool bridge.

umbral wolf
formal shoal
#

Honestly, the Rift's entry mechanics made me never want to hunt there.

native sky
#

Well...when you could just go north/east/west 3 times and be on your way was a lot less annoying than the current implementation.

formal shoal
#

Gift of the God-King was one of the first Gemstones I seized on and went, "Yes. Make this less hateful."

chilly zenith
#

The entry mechanics have gotten better but unless you're Voln still not tremendous.

quasi skiff
#

my general suggestion would be, even relatively unhunted now areas (like sanctum really is now) and stuff is i would hate to lose existing hunting areas so even if you're basically just taking existing things and hulking them out to make them asc i'd like to see jus new additions to existing places. like scatter can go to the expanse or something and it's the same creatures that would be in a converted scatter but in a new area. easier with rift acuse you can always add more koar-brain. sanctum i dunno, open the eye room and it goes to the EVEN MORE INNER sanctum with "the most pallidest shaper" and "unveiled sentinels"

#

realizing that involves more painting and qc, doing Eminent domain claims on the sea of fire to build a second tower, etc.

grim wadi
#

Besides the entry, it’s the Rift’s room movement mechanics that keep me away

frail cove
formal shoal
grim wadi
#

Confluence too, but that’s annoying just because of all the elementals and hot weapons, lightning, etc

formal shoal
#

Honestly, it comes down to human resources.

#

In the literal sense.

#

Sanctum, I got some help on room design from Kenstrom and one other person.

#

Hinterwilds, I wrote every room, gem, and creature.

quasi skiff
#

cool, cause yeah wnen this comes up a lot people are like just make scatter asc and i'm like noooo. the work is already done there we need net more areas anyways don't do eet

formal shoal
#

Same thing with Sailor's Grief and Moonsedge.

frail cove
#

Can't help but wonder how much of the groundwork could be done with AI....
(not the finished product, but maybe some of the heavy lifting and base)

formal shoal
#

These things can be farmed out, but I typically have a very clear vision when I am writing an area.

#

I gave AI the college try with regard to Sailor's Grief room descriptions. The truth is that writing is too important to me to cheat like that.

frail cove
formal shoal
#

I am okay with using the occasional query to help with mass projects.

#

Like assigning fish weights.

frail cove
pale linden
chilly zenith
#

What if we reimagine Ascension creatures to mean creatures over level 100. So then you can get a chance at a gemstone or dust drop if you pick off sentries or GWEs in Nelemar, shapers in SoS, like... well everything in the scatter lol

pale linden
#

well since the scatter will be common, only single props and regionals there 😅

frail cove
pale linden
floral marsh
formal shoal
#

I think AI can now churn out some very good writing, but even when it's trained on my stuff, it doesn't really feel like me.

native sky
sage owl
native sky
sage owl
native sky
lime bison
#

I find it plenty of fun, my characters are all low level of experience (7m-21m), and I am dying a lot but then what the heck is the point of video games where you can never die?

formal shoal
chilly zenith
#

Agreed I was just trying to share the love. I do overall prefer the idea of buidling a Scarier Sanctum ASC extension rather than converting it. SoS is so much fun as it is, we don't want to lose that.

native sky
#

Seemed like it was more of a difference between ascension hunting grounds and non-ascension hunting grounds than the critters.

pale linden
native sky
#

Dessert. yummmm

formal shoal
lime bison
#

I also think scatter would be a good ascension area.

opal root
#

The rift is all good fun until someone waves hello in the sands

native sky
# formal shoal Fight bandits and tell me that. 😛

I've fought in the Scatter, the Hive, ME, First two areas of HW, Atoll - idk, mate. The only differences that stood out to me was the environmental issues to deal with and of course the ascended critters higher level and all things that go along with that.

pale linden
#

no SG?! 😱

native sky
#

I'm only 10.5mil and KS! I can't swim! Afraid of boats! And Graveyards.

pale linden
#

swimming is irrelevant!

formal shoal
#

I think Scatter creatures are easier than Ascension ones, no?

pale linden
#

maybe in a vacuum

#

dealing with them all at once depending on profession / if you have a way to deal with vvrael / phylactories … it’s pretty reminiscent of an asc area

lime bison
#

scatter has some nasty tricks

lusty dragon
#

South scatter is pretty comparable to fjallarhart I'd say

native sky
lime bison
#

level 104-110 creatures, spikethorn from the darkly inked fetish masters

native sky
#

And her crazy high DS - had to make use of bearhug to take one down! (which I loved)

pale linden
#

decent environmental effects as well

native sky
pale linden
#

isn’t there hot / cold damage or am i misremembering?

native sky
#

That just pulses out randomly in the scatter? Not that I ever saw. If you stand close to rift you push through on plane 4 I THINK you could take some damage...but otherwise pretty sure no.

pale linden
#

hrm well, if it’s going to be an ascension area we’re going to need environmental damage 😅

opal root
#

At this point I'd consider rift crawlers an environmental effect they just pop up everywhere

cerulean lotus
quasi skiff
#

i mean, i am "even most asc stuff is chill most of the time" levels of exp and gear but i still expect to die in nearly any asc area if i go afk

I legit was just like "oh, gotta go talk to someone" in south scatter doing the quest last week and didn't bother leaving

#

there's obviously always some overlap with real asc but still, it would take an incredibly unfortunate series of events for me to die there i think, like.... even gemstone rngsus would be like "damn, i can't believe that just happened". Vvrael immunity and phyalcrities don't make anything harder they're just annoying lol. periodic plug to just make vvrael magic resistant at least it's so dumb i don't care if it's old lore. it's still dumb.

chilly zenith
#

Big time agree on changing their immunity to a fat resist.

native sky
midnight flint
gusty oxide
#

I absolutely loved hunting SoS when it first came out (I mean still do, but gemstones).

I would prefer to see an additional "level" or area that was ascension and not just jack up the whole area because it's also a great Landing-side capped/close to cap hunting ground.

elder heart
#

maybe make the outside desert the ascension zone. the climate can be similar to what goes on in hw

chilly zenith
#

Nah because then non-ASC have to walk through that to get to regular SoS lol

pale linden
#

desert expansion! desert power! mua... nvm

elder heart
#

it can add to the risk of heading into the spire. plus theres also the privy

quasi skiff
#

the privy floor finally collapses under the weight of a decade of loot-laden players jumping onto it and it leads to the sanctum catacombs

native sky
spiral frost
# cerulean lotus This was the point though right, to make ascension harder/require more experienc...

I’ve been thinking about this and I actually have no idea what the point was by now.

If it was to make things harder, then that’s very odd since that was already preemptively offset by eliminating the large swarms.

If it was to encourage small groups and discourage large groups, then that’s even more odd because it seems to have been mostly small groups raising concerns and complaints.

If it was to create more parity between physical and magical attacks, then that was a big whiff on the current live incarnation and was a slight whiff in the other direction on the last test incarnation.

If it was to require better gear, then that’s sort of the case, but only when the gear improvements are based on things like sheer AS/CS/DS/TD boosting, not conventional flares, spikes, flourishes, various Gemstone properties, weighting and sighting, etc. that all get nailed by a crit cap.

If it was to make getting Gemstones take more time, that was already preemptively handled by getting rid of large swarms.

#

Whatever we end up with is fine with me personally and I’ll adjust because I can. (Not everyone can; people with attuned gear, already-upgraded Gemstones, etc. would either just kind of live with build/gear choices that could have been better in hindsight or eat sunk costs to get out of those choices. And then there are players who get into multiplayer groups but who, themselves, are in professions that don't have the versatility to pivot to entirely new approaches without great investment.)

But I feel like my feedback through these various iterations of CA is maybe unhelpful because I'm just making detached observations of ripple effects--ones that seem to largely affect others more than me, judging by the tone or even outright words of their posts--and I don't and can't comment on an end goal since what one even is is unknown to me.

chilly zenith
#

Yeah I don’t work here I just post a lot but the MA complaint was all related to spawn rates making the area unhuntable for normies. That’s solved now. I don’t see how you make the game harder for MA without penalizing genuine group hunting and I’m also not sure it’s necessary to even try but, again, looks like dev feels otherwise.

cerulean lotus
spiral frost
#

I don't see anything wrong with people seeking benefits for themselves, though. Honestly, if anything, I think I'd hope that changes get made based around the people who care most and are most invested in the outcome.

craggy raptor
craggy raptor
frail cove
craggy raptor
#

also it was like I spent these months getting gemstones that improved my mana efficiency and then suddenly it's all wiped out because in a group of 2 I'm spending like 25-50% more mana to kill things all of a sudden which was a bummer from a progression standpoint

lime bison
#

At least for me I saw increased difficulty with just the monster generation changes, then the CA stuff was even more difficulty.

spiral frost
# frail cove From what I understand, the intent of CA was very focused --- To balance the sca...

If that was the goal, then I think that might be impossible without hitting small groups too hard. Increasing from one character to two is already the greatest difference a person can see. Even if it were a linear power increase, that would be a 100% jump, but two characters to three would only be a 50% jump, three characters to four would be a 33% jump, etc.

But it's not a linear increase. One character to two is so much more than +100% efficiency because of synergy, diversification (unless both are the same build of the same profession), splitting enemy fire, and covering for each other.

craggy raptor
#

that's a very fair point but I think it has to be balanced with: "do we want to punish/discourage small groups in a game like gemstone?"

frail cove
#

I dont think the intent is to discourage ANY form of playing.

It's to balance.

So that a group of 3, whether an MA'er or 3 solo characters together - feel a similar difficulty as a solo player.

Edit: Which to lean into Leafiara's point - is realllllllllllllly &^#@$( hard to do.*

spiral frost
#

I don't even think it's possible. Or at least I'm not convinced it is. But even if it were possible, then why would anybody group?

craggy raptor
#

I feel like these two changes are in response to many complaints in the community about MA groups...but I don't really see anyone complaining about small MA groups, right?

frail cove
#

Especially when you add the nuance of EXP gaps.
A group of 3 with an 80m character mopping up the room for two other 10m exp characters is NOT the same difficulty as a group of 3 that are all sub 15m exp

spiral frost
#

Okay, that actually is a good answer to why people would group. Hmm... 🤔

frail cove
hallow trail
#

I think the main problem with this change is that it was just a straight up difficulty increase for everyone (except people hunting solo of course) with no reward introduced at all. So now people are questioning if they want to bother grouping up if it's just going to increase the difficulty for no reward.

Could introduce a reward for grouping (beyond the what, 1 experience absorbed per pulse?)

craggy raptor
#

I mean there's already an inherent reward in grouping as discussed above. I don't think big MA groups requesting a reward for this change will go over very well as it would seem to run counter to the intended goal.

gusty oxide
#

Maybe a chance for anyone in a group to collect dust and gemstones would incentivize grouping. Since that was a deterrent long before CA was even a concept.

craggy raptor
frail cove
wide stone
#

I apologize if this has already been asked. Does this change take into account the relative exp of the group's individuals? In other words, does it "punish" equally freshly capped player groups as it would higher exp groups? Or is it strictly number of players that matters?

frail cove
wide stone
#

I thought so.

#

I must admit it has the feel of a distinct... "let's protect the high folk" and make it tougher to get there for the younger ones. Just throwing that out there as wrong as I'm sure I am.

hallow trail
# craggy raptor I mean there's already an inherent reward in grouping as discussed above. I don'...

This seems to be a major factor in any discussion about change: but MA groups would benefit. I think people focus too much on "What about the MA groups."

Personally I don't care if they make any changes to CA, or if they reward people for grouping up. I was just throwing out a possible solution to what seems to ultimately be the main issue here: this was a (almost) universal difficulty increase for no reward at all.

frail cove
frail cove
hallow trail
spiral frost
#

It seems clear that there's no perfect solution that somehow balances everything possible with everything else. What I'm not clear on is whether they're trying for one. If they are, I don't think they should since the game is way too multifaceted, so they'll inevitably catch too many things in the crossfire of unintended consequences.

native sky
#

I am just glad that the changes made to creature gen from large groups, MA or not. I don't see a reason to try and challenge large groups - I mean I imagine they like being in a large group because it is NOT hard.

frail cove
frail cove
#

I do think it's important to keep in mind.... that if some groups want to play post cap with less difficulty in larger groups unaffected by CA changes.... it's still available in all non-ascension areas.
The Rift, Sanctum, Atoll, OTF, and Bandits are all still viable post cap hunting grounds.

it's only the hardest content, with the best rewards that have been updated.

hallow trail
#

Have the GMs ever stated how much experience they expect people to have in ascension zones? Like they expect people to have at least 15m experience and if someone has less they should expect a harder time.

spiral frost
#

This being only applicable to Ascension areas is one of the reasons why I wonder if the changes are partially motivated by a thought that Gemstones are too easy to acquire. It could also just be a thing about preserving the mystique of Ascension hunting via difficulty (whatever “difficulty” entails), but I still get mixed messages from the fact that unlocking all Gemstone slot only requires 7.5m Ascension exp, implying that that’s considered to be a lot.

Edit: keeping in mind that Gemstones are supposed to be a carrot that keeps people playing for many years. Even if 7.5m sounds like a lot to more casual players, it’s not so much in the context of them either if they’re playing for a decade looking for Gemstones.

frail cove
# spiral frost This being only applicable to Ascension areas is one of the reasons why I wonder...

I dont know.... When you consider that most professions aren't "peaked" until like 30m normal exp (+/- 5m depending on their builds/professions)....

Setting a bar at 7.5m asc exp is still pretty high. Unless people are splitting away from normal exp much quicker and foregoing normal TP's completely.

I also think the carrot is already planning on being extended with the codex teasers. I would be surprised if gemstones is the only "end game, long term carrot" that'll be cooked up.

spiral frost
#

Still Elite and Legendary Ascension on the way!

But yes, what you're saying is why I have a qualifier like "whatever 'difficulty' entails." Maybe part of what it entails is higher exp requirements, like Dreaven or Ishtae were getting at. If so (and it is an if), then people can't/shouldn't just shift to Ascension exp sooner since they're expected to finish maxing Dodging or whatever else. And that would be okay. But that's never been articulated (at least that I know of), so I can't say whether that would be an intended or unintended outcome.

lime bison
#

more difficult content than ascension should be the goal right? More exp, and more z_PepeWhale = easier time in harder areas rather than no perceivable bonus for those things?

spiral frost
#

I mean, there's definitely some demographic of players who have voiced desires for superascension areas that are balanced around them having six SKs, +75 everything, and 100m exp.

pale linden
#

and they want to be able to teleport there from anywhere all the time for free 😇

formal shoal
#

CA is definitely my effort to slightly even the field between solo and groups, and solo and large groups especially. But you're right in that it's not a closable gap.

#

I will eventually get around to another challenge tier.

pale linden
#

bossrush first!

formal shoal
#

Personally, I wish we could do the WoW thing and have different gear required for different areas.

#

One of my original ideas for Ascension was that your old non-Hinterwilds weapons and armor just worked as if it was 0x and basic.

#

And you had to get HW-specific services.

#

I think I would have been torn limb from limb.

pale linden
#

no no, vivisection. save the brain for study

spiral frost
#

Heh, that would expose profession and build imbalance real fast.

pale linden
#

out of fairness the next asc area should be east coast 😁

formal shoal
#

There will be one for sure.

#

Probably smallish.

pale linden
#

ithzir expansion!

formal shoal
#

Like Moonsedge Castle size.

spiral frost
# formal shoal CA is definitely my effort to slightly even the field between solo and groups, a...

Okay, that's helpful and does close a lot of windows of consideration, but it raises many questions too since group composition varies wildly--and so do exp amounts, which I hadn't even thought about until others pointed it out today (because almost all of my characters are 50m+). A 10x cap high CS bard has basically unchanged offensive power whether solo, in a group of five, or a group of ten. Other professions or builds, or especially lower exp, need the help of synergy and carries more, etc.

little breach
#

Please add one to River Rest.

formal shoal
spiral frost
#

Yep. But even if you solve for that, the next thing fills in. A warrior with 900 AS. A Brute-style cleric with +50 spellbook enhancives.

formal shoal
#

Yeah.

lime bison
opal root
#

It depends on your spell alocation.

spiral frost
#

That, but also I'm probably underselling Brute in the first place. I have no idea how he got to like 615 CS since the spellbooks alone wouldn't have done it. I have only marginally more idea how I see some wizards getting to 800+ bolt AS while I'm poking around with my 550ish.

Edit: Kinda interesting, actually... you can get +95 melee AS out of Ascension, +82 ranged AS, +70 bolt AS, or +50 CS. That's not counting some more minor swings from lores, anyway, but just weapon/Ambush/Spell Aiming/stat/Transcend Destiny boosts. Meanwhile, max enhancives yield the same +95 melee AS, +82 ranged AS, or +70 bolt AS, but only +20 CS. Stackable with Ascension in all cases.

So a person could already create gigantic power differences just on exp and enhancives alone. (Regular enhancives, not even the spellbook ones or SKs or the like.)

lime bison
#

1 CS per 20 spells so you get 2.5 CS for 50?

opal root
#

It's closer to 10. .25 for 60-100 and .125 for 100+

lime bison
#

6.25

spark canyon
rose atlas
#

Failed to link properly: #1437571971079606352 message
RE: FFNG suggestion

I think this is a great suggestion. Sanctum is one of my favorite hunting spots. Even with a ton of XP you will still encounter dangerous situations because of the combination of creatures and their attacks.

A more "inner sanctum" that is ascension, segmented from and not changing the current Sanctum would be a great add.

rose atlas
rose atlas
grim wadi
#

You could consider reducing the damage redux, etc, and just focusing on the AS/DS/CS/TD buffs to mobs as groups increase.
+20 AS/DS and +5 CS/TD per character in the group after 3.
Or more.
Maybe it starts at 50 AS/DS and 20 CS/TD at 4 people.
Also, start hasting them after 5 people in the group.
-1 sec attacks for each person over 5.
Add HP maybe too.
Kind of like Endless in the DR Arena.
It avoids most of the problem but makes it scale a lot with group size.
Eventually, +200-300 AS and 50-75 CS/TD at 10 in a group will just kill people.

#

But it’s not impossible or too annoying on crits. It’s just way harder.

#

And it has the value added of a group of high-level characters who say “let’s see if we can do this with so many of us together.” For fun.

rose atlas
#

The +20 CS/TD would completely shut down casters and lead to a lot more one-shot deaths, especially from disciples.

One scenario I'd like to avoid is requiring thousands of dollars in simucoin gear. If the difficulty increases to where it might require ascension training, that's one thing, because it kind of already does, for pures ... but if you need to have +30TD from simucoin adds, I'll just stop grouping and get rid of those characters.

wide stone
#

For this player... I enjoy MA'ing because it is very hard to find active groups. Further, and more importantly, part of expanding the game for me has been learning the complex synergy between classes and how they hunt together. Truly fun stuff. My issue with all this is pretty basic. I have spent literally thousands of dollars this year gearing characters for ascension hunting. Thousands of real dollars... paid to Simutronics... for a certain thing. Now... post-sale that thing is being nerfed... changed.... devalued... and for what? To make my group synergy less effective and make the solo one account player feel better about themselves. So let me get this straight... you are going to punish me for spending more, subscribing more, and playing more so you can make that solo player feel better and more relevant?

Don't get me wrong. Solo players are great. But this is feeling pretty backhanded and dishonest from a simple business sense. If Elon Musk nerfs my Tesla six months after I buy it to make Ford drivers feel better about themselves, I don't really care about his motives. I spent real money on that.

I've not done enough testing to make a final decision on whether I'm staying or going. But this is honestly the first time I've found myself thinking about it. And that... fundamentally saddens me.

formal shoal
#

And he was never seen nor heard from again.

native sky
#

I don't quite get your Tesla analogy there...And I don't believe Auchand is trying to devalue anything. Nothing has been finalized. Your feedback is important but it sounds like arguments of, "I spend $$ so I deserve xyz or I quit" is just not an effective use of your time or energy.

#

Also - the people who are in large groups - you are the folks taht I would imagine need LESS gear! It is the solo/small grouped players that are actually at any sort of risk. (not that this point really has anything to do with CA - more of like an aside)

wide stone
# native sky I don't quite get your Tesla analogy there...And I don't believe Auchand is tryi...

Well to put the cookies on the low shelf... it is where you sell a product and then fundamentally change the product right after selling it. That is problematic. If you don't understand that, well I'm sorry you don't. Your quote is wrong. I said very simply that this is the first time that I've found myself so disappointed by a move as to consider departing. Your imagination may be true about people in large groups (not even sure what that means), but I gear everyone in my family. I want them all to have a roll. I want them interactive and relevant.

As for my time and energy, I excel at wasting both. It is wasting that and money all at once that upsets me. Perhaps I'm overequipping my characters. But then again I'm not trying to play this game as a business to make money. I enjoy it for what it is.. have spent more on it than any form of entertainment (other than scuba diving) and simply feel a bit cheated when the items I buy are essentially rendered useless. Sorry if you don't comprehend that.

#

Finally.. the only reason I say any of this is to point out the view from where I sit for @formal shoal's consideration. I do not accuse anyone of anything. This is just the practical real impact this entire line has had on me. Knowing nothing is final is encouraging.. but the only way to prevent issues from becoming final is to voice concerns.

Cheers. Hope to see you all around.

rose atlas
# native sky Also - the people who are in large groups - you are the folks taht I would imagi...

Part of MAing for me is using all the different professions and all the different types of gear for those professions. So I don't spend as much on alts as I do my main character, but they do get upgrades.

And to be clear, I'm not leaving, I would just make adjustments to what I run based upon how fun or not fun the increased challenge is. I'm not against increased difficulty, I'm against impossible difficulty and situations like one-shots against pures unless the creature is completely locked down 100% of the time. Because it's not always possible.

little breach
#

I'm a bit confused on the goal of all this. I thought the original goal was to go after massive groups in the excessive levels messing up hunting areas and not actually the smaller sized groups of 5 or less.

formal shoal
#

Mongen changes are targeted at 5+.

vernal dust
#

Addressing the spawn mechanics that could potentially be detrimental to casual players

while also addressing the single person with multiple accounts (regardless of the number of accounts) disparity in content difficulty compared to truly solo players are two separate issues.

formal shoal
#

Champion's Apotheosis is for groups of all sizes, but its impacts on small groups are small.

#

At least, that is the intent.

zealous hollow
#

Doing the mobgen (all level/gamewide zones) and CA (ascension only zones) at the same time seems to have compounded the confusion it feels like instead of being done at different times.

formal shoal
#

Your feedback on what's on Test will help shape CA.

#

Yeah, I don't really understand the confusion around it, but I accept that it exists. Hopefully stating that the two are only tangentially connected solves that once and for all.

wide stone
# formal shoal Your feedback on what's on Test will help shape CA.

so there is a different tweak on test currently? I need to get on there if so and provide feedback from a lower-exp capped character group. I imagine you have to approach changes like steering a battleship in order to prevent open revolt... a little bit at a time. I guess this has felt pretty sudden and significant to a few of us. I say us based on the messages I'm receiving after my earlier post.

formal shoal
#

There is.

#

Let's still stick with just your feedback and encourage other people to post here with theirs.

wide stone
#

I am

formal shoal
#

I really can't take into account the "silent majority" logic because it's not trackable--I hope that makes sense.

#

We do get a lot of that around changes.

wide stone
#

oh absolutely... I've encouraged posting openly. I mean how can you know what isn't articulated.

formal shoal
#

I don't see a lot of upset around these particular changes, but I also don't expect players to love having their power decremented.

#

I think the resistance-based system feels better than pure crit or damage, which was creating some feels bad numbers.

rose atlas
#

I worked last night, so I'm pretty tired and may just not be remembering, but where did CA originate? It feels like it just came out of nowhere.

wide stone
#

I'm curious if placing a hunting party cap has ever been considered? Maybe that wouldn't help, but maybe it would? This way the equipment impact wouldn't feel reduced and could still help with massive MA issues. Maybe I'm crazy.

formal shoal
#

I have been paying special attention to folks like Seminthi because he represents such a neat edge case.

formal shoal
#

This mechanic already existed in different forms across Ascension.

#

No one complained about it then, FWIW.

rose atlas
#

Like, I know there were complaints about big groups creating massive swarms that made certain spots unhuntable, I complained about it myself.

So I understand why the mongen changes happened.

I guess I don't understand why the CA changes are happening.

formal shoal
#

I think that the Ascension buffs that it replaced were too scattershot.

#

This replaces all of them, streamlines the creation process in the future, adds a surmountable additional challenge for grouped players, etc.

#

I feel like it is an overall win-win, but YMMV.

formal shoal
#

It would pretty much end organized group hunts and such, though.

rose atlas
#

Some people would just walk their characters around individually and I think it would be more annoying to see Person A just arrived, Person B just arrived, Person C just arrived, Perzon Z just arrived.

formal shoal
#

I would like to see some further changes to groups, some beneficial.

wide stone
# formal shoal I have considered that.

from an RP standpoint... I find it difficult to imagine creatures running to get better gear or spellups when a group walks in... on the other hand I can certainly see an oversized group getting in each other's way and being less effective as a hunting party

formal shoal
#

You don't think V'tull would reward savagery and bravery in the face of a superior foe? 😄

lime bison
#

Are we really trying to square hunting like a full time job with RP, because that's probably a losing battle.

rose atlas
native sky
#

Maybe just introduce old divergence for groups 6+

wide stone
#

gotta scoot and actually earn some money with this darn job... can't wait to catch up later on this excellent discussion

formal shoal
#

2+ players.

formal shoal
#

I do not want to nerf your gear. I appreciate you spending on it because I like GS existing.

lime bison
#

I'm dying. a lot lately from the changes like a lot a lot, I went through 50-100 deeds this weekI think. I also have low expeience characters in an ascension zone so I kind of expect it. The biggest thing I see is more manuever attacks coming through not getting disabled quick enough is my main issue.

rose atlas
#

Define low experience characters

lime bison
#

7m-12m squishy pures

#

My characters over 2x cap seem to have not nearly as many deaths, and Grhim who has almost 3x cap and gear is dying hardly ever.

rose atlas
#

My lowest experience pure has 20m and it feels that way for me too. I just don't have the option of making it more defensive.

gusty oxide
formal shoal
#

FWIW, my mage has also been killed a couple times by creatures spawning on him while he was CC'd.

#

Being torn apart by my own creation is very Tseleth.

gusty oxide
#

I think a lot of my ME deaths on my cleric come from walking into a room and getting the instant smackdown 🙂

formal shoal
#

(Spoiler: I return as a lich.)

rose atlas
#

My least favorite thing is an instant smackdown

lime bison
#

Mages seem to be getting destroyed a LOT with the changes versus my other professions.

rose atlas
#

Glass cannons, but the cannon had all the oomph taken out

chilly zenith
#

I think my internet would need to drop for my 31m mage to die in ME. But my sorc (the actual glass cannon class) gets wrecked if anything at all goes wrong in the Forest/Gigas villages

#

I cannot even imagine bringing my sorc to ME for any reason lol. Just seems like the worst possible match up.

rose atlas
#

I agree. Defense on both is terrible. The typical way to improve is via spells MIU/AS but spell sever prevents it.

gusty oxide
#

Forest is so punishing for pures, those cannibals are crazy.

chilly zenith
#

Cannibals are my sorc's #1 opps

lime bison
#

They should give pures a spell sever slot per 150 ranks or something.

rose atlas
#

I thought it was supposed to be 2 for pures, 1 for semis.

or +1 per 100 ranks of MIU/AS training

chilly zenith
#

It would definitely be nice to see that come to fruition

wide stone
lime bison
#

I'm not sure what other implications that would have in the world of gemstones and SK items though.

vernal dust
#

I haven't noticed any issues as a duo but my empath basically runs ecure on my hunting partner every 5 seconds.

rose atlas
#

Your empath isn't like, an empath. It's a warrior/empath/wizard.

chilly zenith
#

Throwing some stones from that glass house mr bard/sorc

vernal dust
#

Well yeah, the empath can't really die but my sorc gets hit a bunch. Constant healing keeps em alive

rose atlas
#

I would almost say warrior/bard/sorc for me. I was happy when I finally saw that 1k AS

chilly zenith
#

I will get off my Sorcs Are Bad soapbox in this thread after this but: in ascension, sorcs are pretty bad!

quasi skiff
lusty dragon
#

Yeah, it wasn't the same mechanic at all.

sage owl
#

Come to SG currently on live solo and start grouping until you get to 5 … you’ll see how strong CA is

#

Hunt there for a few hours and tell me how yall feel

#

Yall keep on chatting about easy ascension mode in ME HW ….but how about where you really do need to group with others ?

#

It’s a given if you don’t have 20m xp and 10k at least in gear, you’re not viable in ascension zone

chilly zenith
#

Before Ascension zones people were hunting Nelemar with 70m exp. I don't see why the idea of needing 20m exp to hunt the literal hardest ASC zone is objectionable.

gusty oxide
quasi skiff
#

I don't think anyone really thinks CA isn't overtuned right now on live.

frail cove
#

I know we've kind of beat the dead horse here.... This is coming from someone who runs 6 currently (usually 5 to 6).
But from my view - CA isn't about "making anyone feel better" - Solo hunting experience shouldn't have changed at all really.

It's to balance how exponentially easier the end game content, with the** BEST rewards** becomes when players are grouped.
In most games, when you have multiple players instead of playing solo, the game increases the difficulty level. This is pretty standard. Not foreign at all.

The current changes just hit a really tender spot because the appearance is that it comes as a massive nerf to things people have invested in. It wouldn't feel NEARLY as bad, if the mobs just spawned with 2x, 3x the health pool, and crit padding to offset.
People don't want to see their $1000 stick of doom do 5 damage.

I also disagree with the 20m xp and 10k in gear comment above

sage owl
#

So 7.5m in exp and 30k in gear ?

#

70m exp and 0k in gear ?

gusty oxide
#

My cleric is 8m exp wearing ots 4x armor/runestaff. She hunts ME and HW fairly well, or at least I don't die an unreasonable amount, all things considered.

chilly zenith
#

What about the time-honored open world RPG tradition of going to a different hunting zone if you're not ready for the one you're in and it's giving you a hard time? Did you try to kill the Tree Sentinel for 10 hours when you started Elden Ring?

sage owl
chilly zenith
#

The standard has deliberately not been stated by staff, so it's reasonable to extrapolate the standard is "When you can handle it"

sage owl
chilly zenith
sage owl
#

I’m just adding fuel to the fire, either way, I support the CA changes … even if it becomes even more harder

gusty oxide
#

I don't know if it's adding fuel to the fire or obfuscating the point you're trying to make.

frail cove
#

I dont think there is a "standard" for ascension. It varies by profession, skill, and playing type. Those that are just typing ;bigshot with 4 command lines are probably not going to be okay at 8m exp and 4x gear.
Could someone still hunt solo there at that stage? Absolutely.

gusty oxide
frail cove
#

Just took my 7.8m paladin with no god tier gear and no enhancives through Moonsedge Village and he hunted just fine.
No chance he could have done it on auto-pilot, but using all the skills in his toolbelt, he had something for every situation just fine.
Even took the time to hunt down the grotesques.

quasi skiff
#

sure but we all know paladins were overbuffed with the last changes (if you're using a shield) to that's cheating 😄 <elmofire.gif>

gusty oxide
#

I do it with my cleric a lot, and it's only the hunts where I bigshot it that I ever die. And she's using some rando 4x vanilla leathers and a runestaff i found in the DR Sewers.

quasi skiff
#

i think basically any non-cs pure can move in really reasonably early (i assume you're doing a lot of 309), cs is more difficult and on a squishier class typically so. not a great combo on low exp. my vibes feeling is basically 15m though for pretty much everyone for it to not feel super duper scary, and adjust down based on $$$

gusty oxide
elder heart
elder heart
quasi skiff
# gusty oxide So, just to be clear, this isn’t a case of “I can do it on X profession with X g...

Sure. I think the key is people have not just varying levels of gear and expertise but also tolerances for risk which may vary on the character or their mood or whatever. i hunted my cleric in the high 80s in HW for a hot minute. But i was only ever playing him to fry twice a day for offline exp gain for 330 juice so all i had to do was log on and if i couldn't find someone to rez for exp do some drive by 309's on stuff and run away and it's a cleric so if he died (which he did. a LOT) i could just 350 lol

pale linden
quasi skiff
#

for like 20 years people complained about the gemstone loot system and how you didn't actually get better loot for higher level mobs and then we added the best rewards to the hardest encounters and people are like "wait no, not like that"

gusty oxide
gusty oxide
frail cove
pale linden
gusty oxide
#

Oh 10000000%. I came back last year at 15m experience and was like "I NEED TO HUNT ASCENSION"

pale linden
#

and you found one of those stones!

gusty oxide
#

Sure, but I wasted 80+ deeds trying to learn how to hunt there.
I spent literaly weeks dying nearly every hunt while playing a substandard spec in the hardest content in the game.

I couldn't step food in Sanguine Grove, the Greatchamber was a pipe dream.

pale linden
#

soooooooo... worth?

#

could have been 80 rpa's if you started today!

#

we even incentivized the deaths to get the stones!

quasi skiff
#

I demand retroactive RPA backpay

#

I mean you should already have been dying once a day to maximize exp gains. just leaving 250 LTE on the table

gusty oxide
#

Yeaaaaaaaaaaaah... I'm just saying, there is a challenge and there are ways around it that don't require massive amounts of exp or P2W spending.

floral marsh
quasi skiff
#

hunt to fry, go die in a warcamp, let them eat enough of you that it's 250 lte in healing lte, drag out rez heal. this is what peak performance looks like.

gusty oxide
#

I absolutely did not understand the horror of cannibals until I started hunting my cleric in HW.

quasi skiff
#

they didn't used to be that bad until the last stealth change naijin did on his drive by return. that made them (and assassins and wardens) WAY worse.

floral marsh
gusty oxide
#

The villages just became safer for my cleric than ME so I'm learning how to handle it

quasi skiff
#

i usually just skip forest bounties too cause of them if i do keep them on a caster i'll do it in spurts during 140/919/etc. uptime... well i mean, my wizard has enough lol exp he does not care about them, but theorhetically if i had a baby wizard

#

but yeah the random cannibal that makes it into a village is like DAMN IT COME ON. An undansormr randomly made it all the way to ojajajahaart yesterday that was fun.

lime bison
#

I think the benefit to MA'ing in regards to gemstone can't be both easier content and more gemstones, it should only be one or the other, and Auchand is making the content scale up which to me is fair.

wide stone
#

There seems another element that I haven't seen addressed very much.

I remember as a kid my sister, when playing board games, would like to get ahead then implement new family rules to the game. This would basically end the game. When you're on top of the world, whether irl or fantasy, it is easy to look down at the masses who are trying to ascend as you already did and say their climb should be harder than mine was.... it's only fair? It's like the wealth gap we see around us... the rich get richer and make it harder for anyone else to get ahead. That sentiment that inhabits many people's hearts irl cannot be ignored.

Anyway, I voice that as an observation of yet another element of distaste that I have for this entire change. I will be getting on test this weekend to see what new adjustments are being considered.

floral marsh
fluid grotto
#

I'm trying to catch up a bit here and feel like I missed a beat... where are there nerfs to gear happening? Or is it just a byproduct of the creature difficulty changes? Sorry, I might need it explained to me like I'm 5

floral marsh
#

You can't just delete your posts Riend!

fluid grotto
#

I JUST WATCHED YOU. DO IT MORE.

leaden grail
#

I can see areas like HW village where spawn rates have increased. I know that was a daily concern listed, even though it seemed like a 8-10am and 5pm kind of traffic thing or late odd hours.

wide stone
fluid grotto
#

if it was an unintentional nerf that is still just on test...

lusty dragon
#

It's not just on test

#

#1437571971079606352 message

#

@umbral wolf 📌 ^ plz?

#

That's what's live right now. What's on test is some tweaks to the last item, since the current padding feels very bad on certain attack types (including flares)

frail cove
#

I do feel like the AS/CS/DS changes + crit padding were probably enough. The damage reduction is probably what has triggered everyone
Edit: and just plain makes us feel weak and kind of stinks

lusty dragon
#

Crit padding is damage reduction though.

#

People I think are over focusing on the damage, but raw damage isn't super relevant in most combat. I would care less if my 5 damge flares were still doing rank 3-5 hits

frail cove
#

it's not the lack of crits people are responding too though.... it's that they're now doing 5 damage instead of 25

lusty dragon
#

They were doing 25 because they were doing a rank 5 crit (for example). 100% of the damage for flares comes from the critical table for that damage type.

floral marsh
#

With crit padding its now more about attrition rather then critting something to death, so with the damage going down as well it feels worse seeing the smaller numbers. Didn't Diablo go through this? People get used to seeing big numbers and then they wanted to scrunch everything because everyone was doing 1b damage and everyone complained when they standardized everything?

lusty dragon
frail cove
# lusty dragon I don't think your interpretation of the response is incorrect, btw - what I'm s...

oh, 100%... and that's good knowledge to drop.

Putting two and two together... the question is, how do we decouple the damage from the crit for flares (kind of like making flares use the same mechanics as waylay vs. ambush).

I feel that would really lean into Flarestone, and help folks get the damage output that feels better - while still making the time to kill creep up a little

EDIT: (I'm not saying this is THE SOLVE, since i'm guessing that's not a simple "tweak" in the system. Just brainstorming out loud here)

floral marsh
#

For me personal and my group. I am fine with what is on live with the mobgen changes as well. It definetly feels riskier for my just past cap guys and I am willing to accept that risk to have a bit of a challenge to hunt there. I think maybe a minor tweak with reducing the damage/crit padding that is assigned to flares and ancillary attacks to make those feel better?

lusty dragon
#

By example:


   ... 4 points of damage!
   Unpleasant wound to left arm!
 [R1 disintegrate - 5]```

So this is a rank 1 disintegration flare to the arm. Normally that critical does 5 damage, which was reduced to 4 damage by CA's damage padding function here. What's not obvious from this is what the original crit rank might've been. If it rolled a rank 4 crit baseline (because flare crit ranks are just a normal distribution between R1-7) and was reduced to a R1 by CA's **crit** padding function, then the flare as a whole lost 15 damage from the critical rank *and* a stun.
#

Much more impactful than basic damage padding. It's the same reason we as players also don't value damage padding for the most part

floral marsh
# frail cove oh, 100%... and that's good knowledge to drop. Putting two and two together... ...

I think flares need to still have a pretty substantial effect in the game and it doesn't seem like that is happening at the moment. If people aren't incentivized to add flares/material at events that would effectively cut Simu's revenue by half (guessing?)? Right now there doesn't seem to be that much incentive to pay millions in BS to get a top tier weapon/flares if its all neutered while in a group?

lusty dragon
#

FWIW flares did feel better on test for the couple hunts I did, with the resistance + crit ceiling implementation. It wasn't 80%+ R1/R2, the distribution felt much more normal. But I'm not really clear how resistance works as a whole

fluid grotto
frail cove
# floral marsh I think flares need to still have a pretty substantial effect in the game and it...

Yeah....Flourish style flares took a really really big hit with the updates, as it sits in the current state that's live in prime. I need to get on test today and check out the changes though - I'll try to do that this afternoon.

Hard to think anyone is going to pay 400k event currency (about $1k) for flares that do 1-10 damage. But will report back after I actually get on test and see the potential updates!

gusty oxide
pale linden
gusty oxide
#

"Ascension isn't hard enough, I'm gonna make my own random crit deaths."

chilly zenith
#

I kept getting smoked out there when Stolen Power used Dark Catalyst on stuff, rofl. "Wait why am I stunned... oh, right"

quasi skiff
#

i forgot to check if the wet rooms are static
if they are you could just add them as boundaries / just otherwise know it's badjuju to stop there

opal root
#

At least your staff is made out of wood

spiral frost
#

Running my first post-CA group hunt in about five hours, so we’ll see what happens there. I’m not going to give people an extensive debrief of how to basically avoid it entirely. Just want to see what happens if people try to do their normal things.

quasi skiff
#

cause it was "just" these when i ran around to check SG at one point

image.png
opal root
chilly zenith
#

Graveyard is where the party's at. My favorite part of SG for sure

elder heart
#

trenchlings are what the oozes should have been.

pale linden
#

it's not too late to make every ooze hamstring and bullrush/tackle [whatever it is] happy 😁

quasi skiff
#

kick
You can’t move your legs to do that right now.

TRENCHLIIIIIIINGS!
(╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻

opal root
serene peak
frail cove
spiral frost
#

Speaking of Flare Affinity...

I'm waiting to see where things land in the end before formally reworking my ideal Gemstone list, but just at a glance, Flare Resonance would definitely be getting canned in the current implementation. (Live or test.) Storm of Rage and Taste of Brutality also drop off a cliff.

However, a sort of C+ level property like Geomancer's Spite moves up the hierarchy, relatively speaking, just by virtue of things above it moving down. Some B- to B (depending on build) properties like Journeyman Tactician or Arcane Intensity move up for the same reason. Then various B+ to A level properties like Channeler's Edge, Focused Storm, or Bold Brawler slightly improve.

Stamina Prism continues its S-tier reign not only unchecked, but somehow even better than before because more stamina gets consumed to kill creatures. Ephemera's Extension is another top end one that somehow gets even better, this time on multiple levels since it saves mana and can also add DS/TD with 140/919/1619.

prisma flame
spiral frost
#

Whoops, yes, fixed! Meant Focused Storm gets better since that one's an endroll boost instead of a percentage DF boost. The DF effectively gets washed out by crit caps, resistance, and even to an extent just extra DS, but endroll boosts continue to improve the concussion damage portion of spells, ignoring any of that as long as they can hit at all.

last rampart
#

why is bold brawler moving up? when the tier was capped already

spiral frost
#

Higher tiers still equal higher damage, not just higher crits.

hallow trail
#

New gear stat idea: Champion's Apotheosis Apotheosis: Reduce the effect of Champion's Apotheosis.

pale linden
#

code busta busta

last rampart
pale linden
#

maybe TD should raise your crit cap against CA creatures. make TD betterer

elder heart
#

uac damage is different from regular weapon damage

elder heart
spiral frost
last rampart
#

yea but it is percentage boost to the df of your weapon which usually would be better than +3 or +5 to as or end roll for like journey tactician and what not?

spiral frost
#

That’s even assuming a generous order of operations. It’s worse for DF boosters if the resistance applies before the multiplier, but not sure if that’s the case.

spiral frost
# last rampart yea but it is percentage boost to the df of your weapon which usually would be b...

I’m not sure that’s the case, but it does depend where the final formulas end up. Endroll boosts result in extra concussion damage too, so the DF percentage boost would have to exceed that.

Edit: It’s also relative to a character’s AS, of course. I’m just talking about my own characters, but Storm of Rage would still win on others who have 100-175 more AS than my top end because then the DF percentage boost is operating on a higher baseline. The paradigm there would have other effects like shifting down Stamina Prism because then they don’t need stamina to the same degree.

serene peak
formal shoal
gusty oxide
#

I am literally like 120k from a Storm of Rage/OSOK gemstone and you're killing me.

spiral frost
#

I'm about to check the math on that because I might be wrong!

gusty oxide
#

I have never hoped you're wrong more. 🤣

spiral frost
#

Raw damage = (Endroll - 100) * Weapon Damage Factor
Let's say the endroll is 200 and we're hitting brig with a falchion, just to pick an example. Damage factor there is 0.250. The baseline raw damage is, therefore, 25.

  • A 15% increase from Storm of Rage takes DF to 0.2875, so the raw damage becomes 28.75.
  • A +5 endroll from Journeyman Tactician leaves DF unchanged, but bumps the endroll up by 5, so 105 * 0.250 = 26.25 raw damage.

Okay, so Hanson is correct on Storm of Rage still beating out Journeyman Tactician.

chilly zenith
#

Get both and beat gemstone today

spiral frost
#

Heh, if anything, it's more like I've talked/mathed myself out of using either. Journeyman Tactician does make number go up to impress other people, though... 👀

Edit: That's for melee weapons. The AS boost is comparatively more helpful to ranged or bolting than melee, though Storm of Rage would still win there too.

#

But yeah, this was my original list. Not making changes until CA settles into its final form, but for the sake of the argument, if its final form were now, then... Infusion, Flare Resonance, and Storm of Rage out. Channeler's Edge and Blood Boil in. Focused Storm into priority 5ish (Channeler's Edge would go to 7). Might not need to go to four Gemstone slots since Journeyman Tactician and Storm of Rage probably wouldn't be worth the unlock and there aren't enough other good commons either.

Edit: Oh, Ephemera's. Eh... yeah, I guess I could tack that on somewhere.

image.png
cerulean lotus
#

does mob CS also increase as part of the CA changes? I'm getting hit by ghast breath a lot more often and harder these days

spiral frost
#

Yes.

chilly zenith
#

I wasn't sure (this came up over in the Moonsedge forum thread), so that makes sense then.

spiral frost
#

#1437571971079606352 message

[...] For every player grouped or recently grouped with the creature's target, an Ascension creature will gain:

+15 AS
+3 CS
+12 Physical DS
+6 Bolt Spell DS
+ some measure of stacking durability through crit/damage padding```
chilly zenith
#

So 12 more CS on 716 for a group of five. That doesn't seem like it ought to be materially increasing how often you get hit but hey, maybe

gusty oxide
#

Can we PLEASE pin that comment.

#

I can't tag him but I really want to tag him so he pins it.

spiral frost
#

We should just tag Whirlin. And by "we" I mean "someone else!"

cerulean lotus
open spindle
#

It's a bit like playing detective using discord search from: auchand and putting the pieces together

gusty oxide
#

@umbral wolf Tag the above comment please I beg you.

#

Preeeeeeeeeeeeeetty sure I turned the actual tagging of Auchand off there but if not... pre-emptive sorries.

opal root
# frail cove ugh - going to be testing in a little bit. This makes me feel like $1000 for Fl...

So I just went on test with a group of 5 generating blessing lore flares until a group member died and that's where I stopped because it would have changed the numbers.

Anyway this is the breakdown


Statistical Breakdown
=====================

Flares by Location:
  nerves: 168 (27.6%)
  chest: 79 (13.0%)
  neck: 40 (6.6%)
  head: 36 (5.9%)
  right hand: 34 (5.6%)
  right eye: 34 (5.6%)
  abdomen: 34 (5.6%)
  right arm: 30 (4.9%)
  back: 28 (4.6%)
  left hand: 28 (4.6%)
  left leg: 26 (4.3%)
  left eye: 26 (4.3%)
  right leg: 24 (3.9%)
  left arm: 22 (3.6%)

Crit Rank Distribution:
  Rank 1: 187 (30.7%)
  Rank 2: 173 (28.4%)
  Rank 3: 114 (18.7%)
  Rank 4: 86 (14.1%)
  Rank 5: 39 (6.4%)
  Rank 6: 10 (1.6%)

Average Damage: 12.28

Average Rank by Location:
  abdomen: 2.44
  back: 2.14
  chest: 2.33
  head: 1.94
  left arm: 2.36
  left eye: 2.35
  left hand: 2.29
  left leg: 2.85
  neck: 2.15
  nerves: 2.73
  right arm: 2.07
  right eye: 2.09
  right hand: 2.65
  right leg: 2.46```
spiral frost
#

So basically flares dead in group of five.

Edit: Except maybe puncture since 22.1% of it could still be lethal if hitting an eye. Any other damage type or body part is down to 8% at most.

Edit 2: But flares do still have screen scroll when nonlethal. I also don't want to be negligent in mentioning that one of the things I have liked about CA is taking more lines of text to kill things! I'd rather have swarms for more lines of text, but if there are going to be fewer creatures, then just pumping out more scroll on a per-creature basis is fine enough. It's why my preferred solution would lean toward the HP buffs or damage shields.

wide stone
#

flares for screen scroll sounds like fluff to me... that doesn't match pricing paid for said flares imo

chilly zenith
#

People pay big money for fluff

frail cove
#

doing testing now in groups of 5, 3, 2.....

This feels MUCH better for flares/spells

will try to post some results in a bit

opal root
#

Since I can't generate 100% dispel flares these are a smaller sample size these were the numbers from that same log (no FA) for both T5 dispel and sigil, I suppose I could break them out:


Statistical Breakdown
=====================

Flares by Location:
  chest: 39 (22.5%)
  abdomen: 19 (11.0%)
  left arm: 18 (10.4%)
  back: 16 (9.2%)
  right arm: 12 (6.9%)
  left leg: 11 (6.4%)
  neck: 11 (6.4%)
  head: 9 (5.2%)
  leg: 9 (5.2%)
  left hand: 8 (4.6%)
  right leg: 7 (4.0%)
  left eye: 5 (2.9%)
  right hand: 4 (2.3%)
  nerves: 3 (1.7%)
  right eye: 2 (1.2%)

Crit Rank Distribution:
  Rank 1: 35 (20.2%)
  Rank 2: 41 (23.7%)
  Rank 3: 39 (22.5%)
  Rank 4: 32 (18.5%)
  Rank 5: 18 (10.4%)
  Rank 6: 8 (4.6%)

Average Damage: 14.61

Average Rank by Location:
  abdomen: 2.74
  back: 3.0
  chest: 2.95
  head: 3.11
  left arm: 3.17
  left eye: 3.6
  left hand: 2.5
  left leg: 2.91
  leg: 2.0
  neck: 1.82
  nerves: 2.0
  right arm: 3.25
  right eye: 2.0
  right hand: 3.0
  right leg: 4.43```
spiral frost
#

I mostly agree with Ishtae on this one. I was actually meaning more that I like the effect of resistance and such on normal attacks, where we have to throw out more of them. The effect on flares is... rough.

grim wadi
#

Wouldn't removing the crit suppression but raising the DS (maybe TD) too cover most use cases here?

serene peak
#

I'm still trying to figure out what problem this is supposed to be solving

spiral frost
opal root
grim wadi
#

I'm getting there as well, Methais, honestly. The mob gen issue was solved mostly, it seems, but this is getting overly complicated.
I think just focusing on buffing mobs with more AS/DS/CS and maybe TD, and/or a bit of redux that focuses on primary damage only (the first one, not subsequent cycles) might be the best method. Flares would still kill things then, but single hits would do less.
Overall, I'm more for just focusing on AS/DS/CS, maybe a TD buff (or just the damage absorption shield that some mini-bosses have--have to beat it down to kill everything, and it gets tougher the more characters are in your group).

gusty oxide
#

I think the problem it's trying to solve is that prior to the changes the challenge ascension content was meant to have was completely negated by grouping up.

cerulean lotus
#

I think there were two separate issues, mob gen fixing a game-wide mob gen issue + some people thinking ascension combat has been trivialized for larger groups (and needs to be fixed in advance of the next rollouts)

spiral frost
#

#1437571971079606352 message

CA is definitely my effort to slightly even the field between solo and groups, and solo and large groups especially. But you're right in that it's not a closable gap.```
chilly zenith
#

MA'ers got accustomed to easy, plentiful Gemstone drops with a group of 8m exp characters and now they're not happy about it. Let's not pretend Gemstones aren't a factor here, lol.

serene peak
#

Cap group size in ascension then. Problem solved.

gusty oxide
#

It doesn't really solve it though, because the content becomes trivial even with smaller groups.

spiral frost
wide stone
serene peak
#

Haven't they spent decades encouraging people to group up?

grim wadi
#

I get this, and I dislike seeing large groups near me, purely because I find them annoying, but I think buffing AS/DS/CS and a damage shield would make it hard enough as the group scales. If people can still handle +200 AS/DS, so be it.
And a damage shield
And mob haste.
Just make the mobs harder the regular way.

chilly zenith
#

Sure. I don't think any change that nerfs flares seems necessary. I hope it's worked out that that's not the case at all.

serene peak
#

This is going to have 0 effect on me either way but still....wut

icy garden
#

I think all of this would be better handled by capping group size at 5 and call it a day.

serene peak
gusty oxide
#

Sure, if your issue is just groups in general... but groups as small as 3 trivializes the content.

serene peak
#

Pretty sure nerfing things people sunk real money into isn't the answer.

gusty oxide
#

I never said it was, I don't think it's a smart business model nor the intention.

frail cove
#

it's not about discouraging groups, it's about scaling content so the same difficulty remains for the most difficult content in the game.

This is only for ascension - and they're trying to balance the scale of groups making content trivial (as small as groups of 2) vs. solo hunting

serene peak
#

I know I'm just saying, that seems to be their outlook so far

frail cove
#

also --- i think the current state on the test server will be REALLY WELL RECEIVED by everyone.

gusty oxide
#

I think it was unintentional, which is why we're seeing an alternative approach on test.

wide stone
gusty oxide
chilly zenith
#

I'm everyone. I'm very agreeable

opal root
frail cove
#

435, group of 6:

You gesture at a flickering mist-wreathed banshee.
A sphere of formless black ripples expands outward from you.
[SMR result: 179 (Open d100: 75, Bonus: 16)]
A flickering mist-wreathed banshee is buffeted by the formless black sphere.
A flickering mist-wreathed banshee's aura absorbs some of the damage!
   ... 20 points of damage!
   Hard blow to the right hand sends fingers flying.
   Alas, they reform soundlessly from thin air.
[SMR result: 154 (Open d100: 81)]
An ashen patrician vampire is buffeted by the formless black sphere and is knocked to the ground.
   ... 25 points of damage!
   Ribs shatter and blood fills lungs!
   The patrician vampire is stunned!
[SMR result: 198 (Open d100: 63, Bonus: 40)]
An infernal death knight is buffeted by the formless black sphere and is knocked to the ground.
   ... 40 points of damage!
   Weapon arm explodes at the shoulder!
   The knight's black ora sword falls to the ground.
The evanescent shield shrouding a horned basalt grotesque fades briefly.
[SMR result: 122 (Open d100: 29)]
A horned basalt grotesque is buffeted by the formless black sphere and is knocked to the ground.
   ... 15 points of damage!
   Back strains under sudden decompression!
[SMR result: 147 (Open d100: 65)]
An ashen patrician vampire is buffeted by the formless black sphere and is knocked to the ground.
An ashen patrician vampire's aura absorbs some of the damage!
   ... 20 points of damage!
   Spine cracks!
   The patrician vampire is stunned!
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.```
#

312, channeled, group of 5:

Bloodstained light spills down from the heavens in an undulating deluge, bathing a horned basalt grotesque's form in a cascade of transcendent power!
The evanescent shield shrouding a horned basalt grotesque fades briefly.
A single dim, stormy grey globe springs to life in your left hand.  With a flick of your left wrist, the globe dances through the air toward a horned basalt grotesque!
You hear the soft tinkle of rolling dice, followed by the sound of coins dropping!
  CS: +504 - TD: +446 + CvA: +25 + d100: +54 == +137
  Warding failed!
The orb squarely impacts a horned basalt grotesque, discharging the stormy grey energy over its entire being for 38 points of damage!
  The stormy grey energy pulses for an additional 26 points of damage ...
  ... dissipating with a final discharge of 15 points of damage!
You feel drained.
Your witchwood scepter pulses with a white-blue light!
You feel 12 mana surge into you!
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.```
#

917 group of 6:

You gesture at an ashen patrician vampire.
Bloodstained light spills down from the heavens in an undulating deluge, bathing an ashen patrician vampire's form in a cascade of transcendent power!
The ground beneath an ashen patrician vampire begins to boil violently!
Craggy debris explodes from the ground beneath an ashen patrician vampire!
[SMR result: 188 (Open d100: 47, Bonus: 41)]
An ashen patrician vampire's aura absorbs some of the damage!
   ... 35 points of damage!
   Massive blow removes the patrician vampire's right forearm at the elbow!
   The vampire's veil iron rapier falls to the ground.
   The patrician vampire is stunned!
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.


Fiery debris explodes from the ground beneath an ashen patrician vampire!
[SMR result: 241 (Open d100: 61, Bonus: 80)]
An ashen patrician vampire's aura absorbs some of the damage!
   ... 30 points of damage!
   Extreme heat causes an ashen patrician vampire's left arm to expand and snap.  That must hurt!
Aghast at the affront of her injury, an ashen patrician vampire's eyes narrow into black slits.  Her body erupts into silvery mist that violently churns northeast!
   The patrician vampire is stunned!

lots more cycles like that
PJ>```
spiral frost
# opal root Uh as a lore flare owner I'm not sure I agree that it will be well received. But...

Heh... thanks, but no need since I already have Blessings flares on my warblade and 171 lore. 😉

And they're very bad for me, but I just assumed that was because of a bigger group and didn't have a major issue with it. (But I also got my Blessings flares primarily via silver, so, ya know. (Bought rock flares at a silver auction during their debut, then converted to Blessings once that became available in the HESS.) Different when people are paying.) Surprised to see they were so rough on a group of five.

frail cove
#

1115, wither, group of 6 --- this felt a little weak: but still 60 damage

You focus your thoughts while chanting the mystical phrase for Wither...
Your spell is ready.
You gesture at an infernal death knight.
Your mental command surges outward, echoing your need to the stray spirits nearby...
  CS: +460 - TD: +390 + CvA: -12 + d100: +86 == +144
  Warding failed!
A nebulous haze shimmers into view around an infernal death knight, plunging inward to envelop her right leg!
   ... 4 points of damage!
   Surface of right leg etched to little effect.
   ... 5 points of damage!
   Surface of right leg etched to little effect.
   ... 10 points of damage!
   Attack removes flesh from surface of right leg, causing trickles of blood to leak out.
Cloudy tendrils writhe throughout the knight's form, ravaging her for 41 points of damage!
She clutches at her armored chest.  Her flaming eyes blaze precipitously as white-hot fire erupts from her floating head, consuming it in a burst of blinding light!  The headless corpse sinks to the ground, unmoving.
An infernal death knight seems less distracted.
The guiding force leaves an infernal death knight.
An infernal death knight seems a bit less imposing.
The death knight suddenly stops moving light-footedly.
An infernal death knight looks momentarily uneasy, but quickly recovers.
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.```
#

309 - group of 6

You chant a reverent litany, clasping your hands while focusing upon the Condemn spell...
Your spell is ready.
You gesture at a horned basalt grotesque.
The evanescent shield shrouding a horned basalt grotesque fades briefly.
[SMR result: 198 (Open d100: 68, Bonus: 45)]
Shadows deepen all around, enveloping a horned basalt grotesque in night's embrace!
Dancing with dreamlike languor, tongues of black and silver flames sear the basalt grotesque for 35 points of damage!
A horned basalt grotesque's aura absorbs some of the damage!
   ... 15 points of damage!
   Burst of flames to left arm toasts skin to elbows.
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.
>
Dancing with dreamlike languor, tongues of black and silver flames sear the basalt grotesque for 35 points of damage!
A horned basalt grotesque's aura absorbs some of the damage!
   ... 10 points of damage!
   Burst of flames to chest toasts skin nicely.
>
Dancing with dreamlike languor, tongues of black and silver flames sear the basalt grotesque for 35 points of damage!
A horned basalt grotesque's aura absorbs some of the damage!
   ... 10 points of damage!
   Burst of flames to chest toasts skin nicely.
>
A horned basalt grotesque spreads its wings, propelling itself up from the ground with a powerful flap.
>
Dancing with dreamlike languor, tongues of black and silver flames sear the basalt grotesque for 35 points of damage!
A horned basalt grotesque's aura absorbs some of the damage!
   ... 10 points of damage!
   Burst of flames to neck chars skin.  Yuck!
>
A horned basalt grotesque struggles to rise but fails in the attempt.
>
Dancing with dreamlike languor, tongues of black and silver flames sear the basalt grotesque for 35 points of damage!
A horned basalt grotesque's aura absorbs some of the damage!
   ... 15 points of damage!
   Burst of flames char chest a crispy black.
The deep shadows surrounding a horned basalt grotesque fade away.```
#

all my pures are just using 7x runestaves.... one of them is a T2 sigil, nothing special....

grim wadi
#

That looks fairly decent. How are regular melee hits doing?

frail cove
#

oh - quick update - all of the above is 6 people - not 5, LOL

grim wadi
#

Seems tolerable for pures?

frail cove
#

yeah, Fahlo (cleric) is with me, and we're having him clear rooms by himself

pale linden
#

at what group size do the demons start spawning? 😈

grim wadi
#

What about flares and melee hits? That change on Test was mostly to benefit pure damage cycles but to reduce melee damage, wasn't it?

frail cove
#

melee definitely felt powerful.... hard to gauge using Kontii, but my bard was doing plenty of damage - just not crit killing
example - this should've probably been a lillshot normally

You take aim and swing a black temporal warblade at an infernal death knight!
An infernal death knight's aura absorbs some of the damage!
  AS: +716 vs DS: +583 with AvD: +27 + d100 roll: +48 = +208
   ... and hit for 20 points of damage!
   Quick slash catches the death knight's cheek!
   Dimples are always nice.

 ** Necrotic energy from your temporal warblade overflows into you! **
   You feel energized!
Roundtime: 5 sec.
Roundtime changed to 1 second```
# 
Your temporal warblade creates a path for you to slip through time, allowing you to cross some distance before reappearing in front of an infernal death knight.
You take aim and swing a black temporal warblade at an infernal death knight!
An infernal death knight's aura absorbs some of the damage!
  AS: +716 vs DS: +581 with AvD: +27 + d100 roll: +89 = +251
   ... and hit for 33 points of damage!
   You broke the death knight's nose!
Roundtime: 5 sec.```
#

definitely not as strong, but very much in line with the pures

grim wadi
#

Yeah, those are pretty lame hits for melee. What about +300-400 endrolls?

spiral frost
#

Seems like pures are way favored, actually. Your 309 did... 50 + 45 + 45 + 45 + 50 damage.

frail cove
#

crits feel a bit more randomized

You take aim and swing a black temporal warblade at an ashen patrician vampire!
An ashen patrician vampire's aura absorbs some of the damage!
  AS: +716 vs DS: +485 with AvD: +34 + d100 roll: +71 = +336
   ... and hit for 102 points of damage!
   Gruesome, slashing blow to the side of the patrician vampire's head!
   Skull split open!  Brain (and life) vanishes in a fine mist.
An ashen patrician vampire's lightless eyes go wide.  A shriek of rage and horror builds in her throat but never escapes.  She collapses, lifeless as a puppet with its strings cut, as the vestiges of otherworldly beauty retreat to reveal a corpse rapidly succumbing to decay.
A series of purple lines suddenly appears on an ashen patrician vampire's face, quickly racing towards the center of her forehead before detaching and dissipating in the air.
Darkness punctuated by a constellation of starry pinpoints wells up around an ashen patrician vampire and splinters away with a sound like shattering crystal.
Roundtime: 5 sec.
Roundtime changed to 2 seconds.```
# 
You take aim and swing a black temporal warblade at an ashen patrician vampire!
  AS: +716 vs DS: +451 with AvD: +34 + d100 roll: +17 = +316
   ... and hit for 117 points of damage!
   Horrible slash to the patrician vampire's head!  Brain matter goes flying!
   Looks like he never felt a thing.
Aghast at the affront of his injury, an ashen patrician vampire's eyes narrow into black slits.  His body erupts into silvery mist that violently churns eastward!
Roundtime: 5 sec.
Roundtime changed to 2 seconds.```
grim wadi
frail cove
#

a lot of those above, the critter is not disabled though
my bard just always aims for the head 😆

grim wadi
#

I'm still thinking a simple AS/DS/CS buff + hp + temp damage shield would work better than this crit leveling and damage suppression across the board.

frail cove
#

still getting decent crit shots...

You take aim and swing a black temporal warblade at a cadaverous tatterdemalion ghast!
You hear the soft tinkle of rolling dice, followed by the sound of coins dropping!
A cadaverous tatterdemalion ghast's aura absorbs some of the damage!
  AS: +716 vs DS: +570 with AvD: +37 + d100 roll: +54 = +237
   ... and hit for 65 points of damage!
   Tremendous blow crushes skull like a ripe melon.
A cadaverous tatterdemalion ghast lets out a hoarse cry that devolves into dry, rasping coughs.  Spasms race through his form, dead muscles seizing and clenching before at last going still.
A cadaverous tatterdemalion ghast exhales the last of a virulent green mist.
Roundtime: 5 sec.
Roundtime changed to 1 second.```
grim wadi
#

People will still mow things down, just more slowly, as long as any system works.

wide stone
#

test it with a drake falchion @frail cove

frail cove
#

Dispel Flare + FA - group of 6


 ** Pouring from your rusalkoren tomahawk, a sinister veil of mist shrouds a flickering mist-wreathed banshee in suffocating tendrils of obscurity! **
A shadow seems to detach itself from a flickering mist-wreathed banshee, swiftly dissipating into the air.
A hazy film coats a flickering mist-wreathed banshee.
Darkness punctuated by a constellation of starry pinpoints wells up around a flickering mist-wreathed banshee and splinters away with a sound like shattering crystal.
The murky veil around a flickering mist-wreathed banshee fluxes chaotically!
   ... 30 points of damage!
   The mist-wreathed banshee wails eerily as your blow passes through its vocal cords.

  AS: +855 vs DS: +383 with AvD: +33 + d100 roll: +26 = +531
   ... and hit for 250 points of damage!
   Attack whistles right through the chest!
   It's like fighting fog!
You hear a sound like a child weeping as a white glow separates itself from the mist-wreathed banshee's body and rises into the heavens.
A flickering mist-wreathed banshee's features twist, caught in grief and agony as she sinks to the ground.  Slowly, her form and garments leak into gauzy mist as her shape begins to lose cohesion.
Roundtime: 4 sec.
Roundtime changed to 1 second.```
umbral wolf
spiral frost
#

Or on that most recent one with the banshee either... does it only appear for the first hit on a creature?

opal root
#

It's on every hit in my log

#

Amusingly enough its also on every part of a hit:

Bloodstained light spills down from the heavens in an undulating deluge, bathing a disfigured hive thrall's form in a cascade of transcendent power!
Cloudy wisps swirl about a disfigured hive thrall.
[SMR result: 234 (Open d100: 21, Bonus: 112)]
The wisps solidify into thick strands of webbing that tighten about her body!
A disfigured hive thrall becomes ensnared in thick strands of webbing!
  ** A crackling wave arcs across your body, striking a disfigured hive thrall with lightning speed!  A spiritual resonance warms your core, lending you renewed strength! **
A disfigured hive thrall's aura absorbs some of the damage!
    ... 20 points of damage!
    Nasty jolt to back fuses a few vertebrae.  Definitely uncomfortable.
  ** As a resonating song emanates from your walking stick, it entwines you in night blue wisps of ephemera.  Suddenly, a star-sparked rush of percussive pressure from the stick whips out at a disfigured hive thrall! **
A disfigured hive thrall's aura absorbs some of the damage!
    ... 15 points of damage!
    Minor muscle tearing on the hive thrall's right leg.
  ** As a resonating song emanates from your walking stick, it entwines you in night blue wisps of ephemera.  Suddenly, a star-sparked rush of percussive pressure from the stick whips out at a disfigured hive thrall! **
A disfigured hive thrall's aura absorbs some of the damage!
    ... 10 points of damage!
    You snap the tendons in the hive thrall's foot.  Looks painful.
  ** As a resonating song emanates from your walking stick, it entwines you in night blue wisps of ephemera.  Suddenly, a star-sparked rush of percussive pressure from the stick whips out at a disfigured hive thrall! **
A disfigured hive thrall's aura absorbs some of the damage!
    ... 20 points of damage!
    Major bones in the hive thrall's left arm crack loudly!
Cast Roundtime 1 Second.```
frail cove
#

basic plasma flaring weapon - it seems to be absorbing the damage:

A cadaverous tatterdemalion ghast's aura absorbs some of the damage!
  AS: +805 vs DS: +515 with AvD: +23 + d100 roll: +41 = +354
   ... and hit for 77 points of damage!
   Strike to left arm cleanly severs it at the shoulder!
   The tatterdemalion ghast is knocked to the ground!
   The tatterdemalion ghast is stunned!
A virulent green mist seeps out of a cadaverous tatterdemalion ghast's lips toward you, but you are unaffected.

 ** Your rolaren dagger pulses with a burst of plasma energy! **
A cadaverous tatterdemalion ghast's aura absorbs some of the damage!
   ... 15 points of damage!
   Dazzling arc of energy traces blackened path across the tatterdemalion ghast's chest!
Roundtime: 2 sec.
Roundtime changed to 1 second.```
#

getting as high as 30

A smouldering skeletal dreadsteed's aura absorbs some of the damage!
  AS: +815 vs DS: +425 with AvD: +2 + d100 roll: +82 = +474
   ... and hit for 71 points of damage!
   Slashing blow to chest knocks the skeletal dreadsteed back a few paces!

 ** Your rolaren dagger pulses with a burst of plasma energy! **
A smouldering skeletal dreadsteed's aura absorbs some of the damage!
   ... 30 points of damage!
   Muscle blasted away from the skeletal dreadsteed's arm exposing scorched bone!
Roundtime: 2 sec.
Roundtime changed to 1 second.```

but as low as 5:
```R>at
You swing a rolaren dagger at a horned basalt grotesque!
A horned basalt grotesque's aura absorbs some of the damage!
  AS: +805 vs DS: +387 with AvD: -18 + d100 roll: +75 = +475
   ... and hit for 41 points of damage!
   Minor puncture to the abdomen.

 ** Your rolaren dagger pulses with a burst of plasma energy! **
   ... 5 points of damage!
   Minor burns to the basalt grotesque's weapon arm.
Roundtime: 2 sec.
Roundtime changed to 1 second.```
opal root
frail cove
#

steam:

Your temporal warblade creates a path for you to slip through time, allowing you to cross some distance before reappearing in front of an ashen patrician vampire.
Pearly light flares up suddenly from within you, lending strength and focus to your attack!
You take aim and swing a black temporal warblade at an ashen patrician vampire!
An ashen patrician vampire's aura absorbs some of the damage!
  AS: +768 vs DS: +736 with AvD: +34 + d100 roll: +56 = +122
   ... and hit for 11 points of damage!
   Blow to the head causes the patrician vampire's ears to ring!
You feel the unnatural surge of necrotic power wane away.

 ** Your temporal warblade erupts with a plume of steam! **
An ashen patrician vampire's aura absorbs some of the damage!
   ... 10 points of damage!
   Excoriating vapors cause chafing of left arm.

 ** Your temporal warblade bursts alight with leaping tongues of holy fire! **
   Consumed by the hallowed flames, an ashen patrician vampire is ravaged for 52 points of damage!
An ashen patrician vampire's aura absorbs some of the damage!
   ... 10 points of damage!
   Burst of flames to left hand burns fingers bright red.
Roundtime: 5 sec.
Roundtime changed to 2 seconds.```
#

consistently getting 10 spots with this:

You take aim and swing a black temporal warblade at a horned basalt grotesque!
A horned basalt grotesque's aura absorbs some of the damage!
  AS: +723 vs DS: +373 with AvD: +21 + d100 roll: +90 = +461
   ... and hit for 62 points of damage!
   Slash to the basalt grotesque's chest!
   Breathe deep, it'll feel better in a minute.

 ** Necrotic energy from your temporal warblade overflows into you! **
   You feel energized!

 ** Your temporal warblade erupts with a plume of steam! **
A horned basalt grotesque's aura absorbs some of the damage!
   ... 10 points of damage!
   Excoriating vapors cause chafing of right arm.
Roundtime: 5 sec.
Roundtime changed to 2 seconds.```
#

okay... so my scientific assessment. It wont be really well received by EVERYONE.

But it's MUCH better and will be really well received by most. 😆

open spindle
#

not sure it's any consolation, but what is live on the test server right now allowed my character with 14mil exp to solo a room for a minute or so while in a group of six.

frail cove
#

My biggest concern right now.... is the flare affinity crit table. This was sold as Rank 4-9 crits on flares... so kind of want to post a bunch of snippets and see thoughts

You swing a honed rusalkoren tomahawk at a cadaverous tatterdemalion ghast!

 ** Pouring from your rusalkoren tomahawk, a sinister veil of mist shrouds a cadaverous tatterdemalion ghast in suffocating tendrils of obscurity! **
 [SMR result: 195 (Open d100: 85, Bonus: 25)]
A cadaverous tatterdemalion ghast's aura absorbs some of the damage!
   ... 20 points of damage!
   The tatterdemalion ghast's neck bones snap.
   Head looks precariously balanced now.
   The tatterdemalion ghast is stunned!

A cadaverous tatterdemalion ghast's aura absorbs some of the damage!
  AS: +882 vs DS: +681 with AvD: +35 + d100 roll: +50 = +286
   ... and hit for 116 points of damage!
   Massive blow smashes through ribs and drives the tatterdemalion ghast's heart out the back.
You hear a sound like a child weeping as a white glow separates itself from the tatterdemalion ghast's body and rises into the heavens.
A cadaverous tatterdemalion ghast lets out a hoarse cry that devolves into dry, rasping coughs.  Spasms race through his form, dead muscles seizing and clenching before at last going still.
A cadaverous tatterdemalion ghast exhales the last of a virulent green mist.

 ** Necrotic energy from your rusalkoren tomahawk overflows into you! **
   You feel energized!
Roundtime: 4 sec.
Roundtime changed to 1 second...```

```Bloodstained light spills down from the heavens in an undulating deluge, bathing a cadaverous tatterdemalion ghast's form in a cascade of transcendent power!
You swing a honed rusalkoren tomahawk at a cadaverous tatterdemalion ghast!

 ** Pouring from your rusalkoren tomahawk, a sinister veil of mist shrouds a cadaverous tatterdemalion ghast in suffocating tendrils of obscurity! **
 [SMR result: 255 (Open d100: 54, Bonus: 119)]
A cadaverous tatterdemalion ghast's aura absorbs some of the damage!
   ... 30 points of damage!
   The tatterdemalion ghast's eye swells and cracks head open!  Instant death.
You hear a sound like a child weeping as a white glow separates itself from the tatterdemalion ghast's body and rises into the heavens.
A cadaverous tatterdemalion ghast lets out a hoarse cry that devolves into dry, rasping coughs.  Spasms race through her form, dead muscles seizing and clenching before at last going still.
A cadaverous tatterdemalion ghast exhales the last of a virulent green mist.

Roundtime: 4 sec.
Roundtime changed to 1 second.```
```You swing a honed rusalkoren tomahawk at a cadaverous tatterdemalion ghast!

 ** Pouring from your rusalkoren tomahawk, a sinister veil of mist shrouds a cadaverous tatterdemalion ghast in suffocating tendrils of obscurity! **
 [SMR result: 94 (Open d100: 10, Bonus: 26)]
   A cadaverous tatterdemalion ghast is unaffected.

The tatterdemalion ghast moves at the last moment to evade the attack!
Your temporal warblade creates a path for you to slip through time, allowing you to cross some distance before reappearing in front of a cadaverous tatterdemalion ghast.
Pearly light flares up suddenly from within you, lending strength and focus to your attack!
You swing a black temporal warblade at a cadaverous tatterdemalion ghast!
The tatterdemalion ghast evades the attack with ease!
Roundtime: 4 sec.
Roundtime changed to 1 second.```
spiral frost
#

The trouble is I don't know if they can start carving out exceptions for one thing (like Flare Affinity) without carving out exceptions for a slew of other things (like, say, scripts with multiple tiers that make their flares more powerful) and creating a death spiral of scope creep.

frail cove
# 
You swing a honed rusalkoren tomahawk at a smouldering skeletal dreadsteed!

 ** Pouring from your rusalkoren tomahawk, a sinister veil of mist shrouds a smouldering skeletal dreadsteed in suffocating tendrils of obscurity! **
 [SMR result: 144 (Open d100: 43, Bonus: 25)]
A smouldering skeletal dreadsteed's aura absorbs some of the damage!
   ... 30 points of damage!
   The skeletal dreadsteed's stomach muscles explode violently.
   The skeletal dreadsteed is stunned!

A smouldering skeletal dreadsteed's aura absorbs some of the damage!
  AS: +882 vs DS: +597 with AvD: +36 + d100 roll: +49 = +370
   ... and hit for 113 points of damage!
   Quick, powerful slash!
   The skeletal dreadsteed's chest is ripped open!
Your temporal warblade creates a path for you to slip through time, allowing you to cross some distance before reappearing in front of a smouldering skeletal dreadsteed.
You swing a black temporal warblade at a smouldering skeletal dreadsteed!
A smouldering skeletal dreadsteed's aura absorbs some of the damage!
  AS: +881 vs DS: +574 with AvD: +31 + d100 roll: +47 = +385
   ... and hit for 71 points of damage!
   Right leg mangled horribly.
   The skeletal dreadsteed is knocked to the ground!

 ** Necrotic energy from your temporal warblade overflows into you! **
   You feel energized!

 ** Your temporal warblade bursts alight with leaping tongues of holy fire! **
   Consumed by the hallowed flames, a smouldering skeletal dreadsteed is ravaged for 77 points of damage!
A smouldering skeletal dreadsteed's aura absorbs some of the damage!
   ... 15 points of damage!
   Burst of flames to right arm toasts skin to elbows.
Roundtime: 4 sec.
Roundtime changed to 1 second.```
lusty dragon
frail cove
spiral frost
#

I actually have no idea on the group size thing, now that I think of it.

grim wadi
frail cove
#

and that's a LOT of $ spent on something for it to be completely negated.... and not just nerfed - but one of it's actual selling points, neutralized

spiral frost
frail cove
#

All grouped with 6 - Flare affinity on 5x dispel flares

You swing a honed rusalkoren tomahawk at a horned basalt grotesque!

 ** Pouring from your rusalkoren tomahawk, a sinister veil of mist shrouds a horned basalt grotesque in suffocating tendrils of obscurity! **
The air about a horned basalt grotesque shimmers momentarily before the evanescent shield surrounding it collapses.
The elemental aura around a horned basalt grotesque wavers.
The murky veil around a horned basalt grotesque fluxes chaotically!
A horned basalt grotesque's aura absorbs some of the damage!
   ... 10 points of damage!
   Tendons in the basalt grotesque's weapon arm snap.

A horned basalt grotesque's aura absorbs some of the damage!
  AS: +869 vs DS: +345 with AvD: +26 + d100 roll: +20 = +570
   ... and hit for 98 points of damage!
   Hard hit shatters weapon arm.
Roundtime: 4 sec.
Roundtime changed to 1 second.```
```You swing a honed rusalkoren tomahawk at a horned basalt grotesque!

>at
 ** Pouring from your rusalkoren tomahawk, a sinister veil of mist shrouds a horned basalt grotesque in suffocating tendrils of obscurity! **
 [SMR result: 216 (Open d100: 68, Bonus: 70)]
A horned basalt grotesque's aura absorbs some of the damage!
   ... 25 points of damage!
   Blood in the basalt grotesque's shield arm boils, sending up a red mist.

A horned basalt grotesque's aura absorbs some of the damage!
  AS: +833 vs DS: +468 with AvD: +26 + d100 roll: +54 = +445
   ... and hit for 73 points of damage!
   Deep slash to the basalt grotesque's right forearm!

The soulstone embedded in the grotesque's chest shatters, sending crystalline fragments flying!  You hear a sound like a child weeping as a white glow separates itself from the shards and rises into the heavens.
Light goes out of a horned basalt grotesque's eyes and animation departs its form in a swift jerk that travels through its stony limbs.  With a thud, it collapses to the ground, looking for all the world like a lifeless statue.
Roundtime: 4 sec.
Roundtime changed to 1 second.```
```You swing a honed rusalkoren tomahawk at a horned basalt grotesque!

 ** Pouring from your rusalkoren tomahawk, a sinister veil of mist shrouds a horned basalt grotesque in suffocating tendrils of obscurity! **
 [SMR result: 172 (Open d100: 24, Bonus: 70)]
A horned basalt grotesque's aura absorbs some of the damage!
   ... 15 points of damage!
   Minor muscle tearing on the basalt grotesque's right leg.

A horned basalt grotesque's aura absorbs some of the damage!
  AS: +843 vs DS: +478 with AvD: +26 + d100 roll: +7 = +398
   ... and hit for 76 points of damage!
   Whoosh!  Several ribs driven into lungs.

 ** Necrotic energy from your rusalkoren tomahawk overflows into you! **
   You feel energized!

 ** Exploding in a tumbling current of frothy foam, a wave of sea water suddenly materializes at the call of your rusalkoren tomahawk and courses through the room. **

Strong currents tug at a horned basalt grotesque, pulling it about in an attempt to roll over it.
>at
[SMR result: 182 (Open d100: 44, Bonus: 60)]
A horned basalt grotesque is buffeted by the force of the tidal wave and is pinned to the ground.

Strong currents tug at an ashen patrician vampire, pulling him about in an attempt to roll over him.
[SMR result: 111 (Open d100: 26, Bonus: 15)]
Succumbing to the force of the tidal wave, an ashen patrician vampire is thrown to the ground.
Roundtime: 4 sec.
Roundtime changed to 1 second.```
zealous hollow
#

A non-corp barrier that has a dmg amount of the creatures health percentage before falling?

frail cove
grim wadi
#

Could work

chilly zenith
#

Give them the carapace the stuff in the Hive has. Wait nevermind you can crit kill stuff with 1 damage there sometimes lol

craggy raptor
#

The more I read the more I'm going to the side of "Mongen changes were enough".

Does it really matter that groups do better? That seems like how it should be. And if people want to MA big groups and it doesn't ruin the experience for others why not let them have their fun?

At the end of the day, the concerns afaik were:

  1. Big groups made hunting areas unbearable swarmy, sometimes ruining the experience for others
  2. Big groups, because of the above, were able to farm FAR more efficiently because they could mow down the swarms with ease

Mongen fixed both of those issues so why is this necessary? It's just unfun and encourages people to 1) not group up 2) not MA...the former being anti what gemstone is all about and the latter being lucrative for Simu. SMH

frail cove
#

It's about balancing content. It's not an MA vs. Solo hunters thing Tsalinx

grim wadi
#

I think the idea to balance content is fundamentally flawed. We don't gear characters to 'balance our fights' or use groups to do it. We do it to crush everything for fun.
Making it 'harder' is one thing. Looking for 'everything is equal' is something else.

craggy raptor
frail cove
#

group hunting has made the end game content too trivial - it's not how it was intended to be.

Every game has balancing mechanics for group play

chilly zenith
#

We have now arrived at the "Balance doesn't matter" talking point of Divergence-era discord. Time is a flat circle

craggy raptor
#

Yeah but why does that matter? The goal of the game is to have fun.

Things like silvers generation and gemstones farming do matter and mongen fixed them.

ASC being difficult matters because difficult means more fun for a lot of people...but what if what's fun for people is to make it easy by being in a big group?

Is making the content "more balanced" worth also making the game less fun?

grim wadi
#

AS/DS/CS...HP...immunity to death crits.... If a group can handle +200 AS/DS and that, just call it a day.

frail cove
chilly zenith
#

Btw I am actually in agreement with you on this Tsalinx, I don't think anything but fixing spawns was needed here. But we are not in charge, lol. And I don't MA (well, I run 2 accounts but I never hunt my characters together), so this doesn't affect me at all.

spiral frost
#

I'm not sure I could go as far as saying that balance doesn't matter, but I do agree that pursuing it might be a chasing a white whale situation since we're operating from a base of an already imbalanced game via exp, gear, build, and sometimes entire profession.

grim wadi
# frail cove I think this is inaccurate - because the intent of the changes isn't to discoura...

Doesn't work though. Look at Fulmen in game... I can solo entire rooms more easily than a normal group, and this version of CA just makes the group worse. Granted the Test changes look more tolerable, but still not ideal.
All this is doing so far is making high-gear solo better than high-gear group. Low-gear needs the group, so let them have it. If we want to make it harder at 5+ characters, just do it the normal way with AS/DS/CS

frail cove
craggy raptor
#

I'm not exactly saying balance doesn't matter - I'm saying this type of balance doesn't matter and is just making the game less fun for no important reason.

#

Mongen fixed the balance issues that mattered imo

opal root
#

I'm going to assume that Auchand can see the data behind the scenes that we can't and its showing that ascension creatures are being crushed and when you add in groups its even worse. If the design intent (balance aside) was to create a difficult hunting grounds at the top end of the game I figure this is just an approach to nudge it in that direction.

grim wadi
spiral frost
grim wadi
#

I agree, large groups of low-gear characters can do well. If we need to cap that at 5 people, and scale it to be harder for them as the number grows, fine, but interfering with the max gear life isn't a good idea. That's why across the board crit/damage suppression is just annoying.
= AS/DS/CS, HP, crit kill immunity, take a nap

frail cove
craggy raptor
#

Even if I agreed with this type of balance, it didn't actually make the game harder for me really. It just made it a little slower, made me feel less powerful, and made me have to stop hunting sooner (MA group of 2).

Again I think the problem was huge swarms being plowed down for massive farming efficiency and mongen fixed that.

lime bison
frail cove
#

Well, i'm just glad we can all have healthy dialogue on it and no one is being rage baited into absurd outliers and twisting each others words.

Anxious to see what everyone thinks when the iteration currently on test gets rolled. Things feel a bit healthier on it.

Still torn on Flare Affinity and have the feels for aynone who purchased it (including myself) for those juicy rank 5-9 crits.

opal root
frail cove
#

Well said.

craggy raptor
#

seems like there are a lot of unintended consequences and I hope he can step back and look at whether this type of balance is worth all the harm it will do...and I say this as someone who remains hopeful that it will have very little effect on my group of 2 once he's done tweaking...but who cares about the overall health of the game...maybe let mongen play out for a few months before deciding whether to add this change on top.

opal root
#

The more people who go on test and give data back the more he can sort through it before it goes live, especially edge cases.

open spindle
#

I'm down to jump on Test and be a +1 to group size to test things out. Just give me an @

wide stone
# frail cove Well, i'm just glad we can all have healthy dialogue on it and no one is being r...

is it "torn" or are you downright saying that is wrong to sell something and then effectively take it away? Honesty is the best policy imo. I have no reason to believe that was the original intent to these changes but it seem quite clear it is the practical impact.

I'm really new to all this commentary and feedback stuff, and it seems to be a bit taboo around here to mention the spending of money on things and having expectations of them. I'm baffled about that sentiment and perhaps I'm wrong. GSIV will not survive without cashflow... it is a business. @formal shoalobviously gets that and appreciates our "business" and ultimately wants to provide a quality product (at least my belief). I think these points are great for us playing and great for GMs and PMs and whoever else. Keep it up friends!

gusty oxide
#

I think there is a difference between “I spend a lot of money on this game, cater to me” and “I spent a lot of money in my gear and Simu should be cognizant of how bad it looks for them and feels for us to have our investments suddenly be devalued” and we are almost all in the second camp, I think.

frail cove
# wide stone is it "torn" or are you downright saying that is wrong to sell something and the...

I'm "torn" on it.

I'm torn because balance changes are needed, but I also don't have the data to understand the impact to flare affinity yet. If Flare affinity flares still have an increased crit rank compared to normal flares at an appropriate rate while grouped, then my worries are kind of unfounded.

That balance is hard to strike, because flat out excluding ONE mechanic from the impact is also not appropriate, but finding a way to scale all these variables is like a 10 sided rubik's cube, which makes me sweat just thinking about it 😅

#

But i also walked full circle into one of Alastirs points the other night… have a few mechanics excluded isn’t good.

Waylay and 1030 are prime suspects

elder heart
#

i hopped on test for a bit and even though its better than how CA is currently implemented, I'm going to think twice about spending extra cash to gear up my guys. if the point is to make harder content, I would much rather see fights like the wyrm and sybil.

opal root
#

Maybe I'm missing something because I'm just an on occasion group hunter and its not my norm but anytime I group I'm generally trying to avoid crits because I want everyone to get their hits in. I'm curious from the leafiara and kaetel types if having the crit ceiling actually helps them in the long run.

harsh pine
#

This was the point I was attempting to make days ago when I suggested the larger health pool. If you paid for 5-9 FA or you paid for 20 cer or you paid for some other insane crit mechanic you are getting pretty boned. Even if you just paid and stacked tons of DF boost you are getting boned.

If I swing and hit a hand with my ridiculous paid upgrades it doesn't kill the mob it just does a lot of damage. So add 50% more HP for all the weak shots, the missed shots, the low performing non FAed flare shots. Then give ASC creatures a flat X resistance or padding if you want for a group. But the fact you at a group of 3 or 4 or 5 you simply can't get a rank 9 flare or effect you paid for is wild.

To clarify the resistance or padding effect: It should still be able to happen, just maybe less frequently. But if I paid for 5 FA for my group of 5 and I can't see rank 9s ever...that is wild. This brings me to like the "monstrosity" mechanic where it takes the hit/crit but struggles and doesn't die.

frail cove
wide stone
# frail cove I'm "torn" on it. I'm torn because balance changes are needed, but I also don'...

I guess I still don't understand this "balance changes are needed" piece of the puzzle. Your comment earlier about creating new zones that adapt to this need for balance is a good idea. At least then people won't feel like the rules are changing unfairly. I get any change to something as incredibly complex as GSIV has to be a daunting undertaking. This is why, like steering a battleship, you make small adjustments over time.

The thing that concerns me is more irl. As a business owner I get how goodwill and product confidence are very real and very important. I, like everyone on here, want GSIV to continue. Anything that shakes people's confidence in purchasing those $1000 flares you mention, does not seem a good plan for the game or the company's health.

I mean can you honestly say that during DR Feb 2026 you won't read a described item and this entire situation come to mind? Even if it gets solved now with an "oops perhaps we should have tested this longer" confidence gets shaken pretty easily. It isn't just about feeling miffed about what you've purchased already... there's a next year too.

#

Sorry I know I get preachy... but I honestly started feeling like an investor in this game and in this company when I was paying so much for what is essentially a few lines of entertainment code. I want this all to go on for a long time.

leaden grail
#

Larger health pool has been tried on invasion creatures like Huge water elementals and Krolvin Warlords with 2 or 10K health. It really didn't matter on difficulty

harsh pine
rose atlas
lusty dragon
# 
 ** Chunks of earth violently orbit a tri-blade vethinye slasher, pelting a withered shadow-cloaked draugr with heavy debris and stone! **
The psychic energy surrounding a withered shadow-cloaked draugr intensifies the attack!
   ... 6 points of damage!
   Blow grazes right leg.

 ** Loose debris tears itself upward around a tri-blade vethinye slasher, spinning wildly before rocketing towards a withered shadow-cloaked draugr! **
The psychic energy surrounding a withered shadow-cloaked draugr intensifies the attack!
   ... 4 points of damage!
   Stubs left hand finger.

** A swirl of alchemical fire, scintillating blue and orange in hue, erupts from your vethinye slasher! **

The psychic energy surrounding a withered shadow-cloaked draugr intensifies the attack!
   ... 4 points of damage!
   Minor burns to abdomen.  Looks painful.```
😬
#

Not even thought lash can save the Lore Flares

spiral frost
frail cove
rose atlas
#

Sure, everyone has their own reasons, but grouping up makes things easier than going solo. It should be more difficult solo.

Think of a tug-of-rope scenario, one person vs two people. The one person should lose.

chilly zenith
#

What if the one person is the mountain from game of thrones

harsh pine
#

Which version alive or dead version?

wide stone
#

I mean are we really debating whether teamwork should make a task or a hunt easier than going it alone?

frail cove
leaden grail
#

That is kind of the genesis that got us into the problem. When solo play got too easy people started playing 3, 5, 8 and 10 characters trivalizing the content further. If folks want discussion, it should be in good faith with cards on the table.

rose atlas
leaden grail
#

We all know you never get any of that money back. It's like baseball card investment. While it's "worth" $1000, you likely won't see more than 20% of that at point of sale so it's not really a valid point either.

opal root
#

In a void that's probably true where exp difference and gear don't exist. But I'm willing to bet Kontii slows and down to kill stuff with his group and it would be easier if he just went all out and did it himself. The ease is just not having to do it 5 different times but the game doesn't really care about that.

rose atlas
vernal dust
#

Do people group to lower difficulty of content or to farm various resources and funnel them to a main?

lusty dragon
#

I think people group for all kinds of reasons, which is part of the problem

harsh pine
frail cove
rose atlas
#

But then the scrub pures in the leftover group would have to not die.

umbral wolf
frail cove
lusty dragon
#

Some do it to farm out dozens of weekly service resource cash cows, some do it for the challenge of orchestrating, some do it to make the game easier, etc. My personal reasons include orchestration and diversification. I don't sell resources, I don't grind silvers. I just play and enjoy the variety that each class offers, and test out various routines - I intentionally throw in suboptimal skills/abilities/etc to them to leverage as much of their respective kits as possible.

#

Also I really enjoy GS itemization, so in order to enjoy fancy new weapon scripts released at events I build them into alts

umbral wolf
#

I also get to select the best bounties of four attempts per attempt. That's nice

#

That wording was awful, but you know what I mean, and Im still mid cold and don't feel like correcting

lusty dragon
#

True, bounty sharing is a great perk. And obviously group buffs are extremely powerful, and less expensive than SKs so I can spend my money on flares instead 😆

harsh pine
#

Cycling bounties to ones I enjoy is a major reason. I feel that. Screw them kids man.

frail cove
umbral wolf
#

It's probably cheaper to find a level 100 character, fix prof them into a cleric, bard, or paladin, and have them follow you, compared to the pricetag of a SK 215/1605.

#

I also enjoy the mayhem of playing mine manually, although with triggers. 430/1030/720/335 is all one key!

lusty dragon
#

I limit my 1030 usage, too hax

umbral wolf
#

Maybe there's something that could be done there... Group bounties?

lusty dragon
#

They already nerf rewards for non-primary bounty completions

rose atlas
#

I'd be a lot less grumpy if the CA boosts just didn't apply as strongly to certain creatures, specifically in like, the pits. It feels nice to have stronger creatures in ojand/eldur. In the pits it just becomes a death trap instead of an increased challenge.

floral marsh
lusty dragon
#

SK 506 is > 10 years worth of standard subscription fees 😛

floral marsh
lusty dragon
#

Making them all premium is wild tbh haha. My main is plat, one additional at premium, the rest are basic

floral marsh
#

I just do it so I can rest at the FWI tables and not be obnoxious to those resting in the cabin in HW.

lusty dragon
#

That's why I bought a tent 😄

rose atlas
lime bison
#

I came back right when gemstones were released like a week after I think, and they were extremely hard for me to get solo at 10m exp. That's why I tried MA'ing so it was easier to get gemstones and I could get more of them. It's pretty darn incentivized toward MA'ing tbh.

harsh pine
#

I am sure people won't like it. Thats fine. But I prefer this mechanic over what we have. It lets me see how amazing my character can be and/or their gear can be. But the end result is the mob didn't die. So while its not the "non-corp" shield or the "damage shield" or "more health" etc. Giving them a god to resurrect them and put them back in the fight is fine by me.

Maybe the chance to do it goes up based on group size. I think I ended up killing this thing 4 times before it "died".

Corrupted flesh snaps and tears over the surface of a patchwork flesh monstrosity's body, reconfiguring itself so that the flesh monstrosity can continue fighting!  The monstrosity's eyes burn green with rage over its near-demise!
Riotous viridian energy races along the surface of the yumi, slender tendrils rising up to coalesce into the ethereal form of a scab-covered rat.
** Baring its curved front teeth, a scab-covered ethereal rat scurries forward with a piercing squeak as a mischief of distorted viridian rats lurch around it on a wave of disruption! **
   ... 60 points of damage!
   The flesh monstrosity's stomach rips through flesh and explodes.
Corrupted flesh snaps and tears over the surface of a patchwork flesh monstrosity's body, reconfiguring itself so that the flesh monstrosity can continue fighting!  The monstrosity's eyes burn green with rage over its near-demise!
A turbulent cloud of viridian light lashes out from a salt-stained ghezyte yumi enveloped in tightly-wound elesine cords with an echoing squeak!
spiral frost
#

Okay, just finished a roughly 45-minute group hunt in the town area of Moonsedge with 7 players. I hadn't tried CA in any form outside the Hinterwilds. The impact in Moonsedge was interesting--the things there are normally very squishy and I liked that they could take a hit. It's a different feel from the Hinterwilds because they don't have enormous health amounts, so we still more or less rolled through them.

The increase to challenge in that particular part of Moonsedge being nonexistent is kind of... curious. I guess part of that just might be the fact of having Nairdin, me, and a 610ish bolt AS empath there. On the other hand, we also had a level 79 warrior there and I don't think he ever got touched despite getting blasted by sheer fear all the time. Edit: Think Nairdin was running 1608, so I guess it makes sense nobody got hit.

Edit 2: I think, also, Moonsedge is kind of a unique case because enemy stats start off lower than other Ascension areas since they're designed around the players' own stats dropping from Creeping Dread. So the enemy stat buffs weren't really "felt" due to a lower baseline--and by the time the organ got played, instead it felt like we were just annihilating everything. Kinda the same thing in the lower level parts of the Hinterwilds too, I suppose, but there you don't get enormous Sword Hymn buffs.

little breach
#

your still doing that with a party with everyone above 50m xp. a party with people at 20m xp probably never insta killed everything

spiral frost
#

I don't think anyone but Nairdin or I was 50m+ in that case. The empath only capped earlier this year and there was the level 79 warrior like I said.

formal shoal
lusty dragon
#

It devalues my entire identity

craggy raptor
#

probably depends whether you consider absolute value or relative value - in an absolute sense, it devalues everything you did to be more powerful just to see your power level go down for grouping - beyond gear, I spend months just to get one rank of transcend destiny to get a power boost that isn't even really noticeable and perhaps you get the "feel" that years of progression to become more powerful feeling just vanishes because you're in a group and a new mechanic just appeared?

leaden grail
#

ASC devalued gear more than CA ever is gonna.

formal shoal
craggy raptor
formal shoal
#

Are those actual costs, though?

#

I feel like that is overplaying the argument.

lusty dragon
formal shoal
lusty dragon
#

Live, certainly. Test does feel a bit improved in that regard. But it's still diminished overall.

spiral frost
formal shoal
#

  1. I don't think it's "balance for the sake of balance." I think that steamrolling all content is boring and actually leads to more player attrition because nothing can challenge you, which is what Ascension should be doing.

  2. I don't know that it's less fun. Tell me honestly if it is.

  3. Does it devalue gear? It doesn't actually affect anyone else any less than you, so your gear is still better than theirs by the same margin.

lusty dragon
#

It doesn't actually affect anyone else any less than you
This is definitely not true. Most people don't have lore flares, much less multiple. Most people don't have bane flares.

formal shoal
#

I'm trying to engage with this pretty dispassionately, so bear with me.

gusty oxide
formal shoal
#

I will say that:

  1. I am unlikely to be convinced to entirely roll back the idea of Champion's Apotheosis. I do think it's an important long-term added challenge for groups.

  2. I am likely to be convinced of a better way to implement it.

#

The crit ceiling was presented as an argument to me in internal discussions and I was willing to give it a try, but a hard ceiling seems like it's not quite what we need.

craggy raptor
# formal shoal 1) I don't think it's "balance for the sake of balance." I think that steamrolli...

It definitely feels less fun to feel less powerful. At least that's how I felt last weekend first experiencing CA.

But I think you should consider that people have different definitions of fun. Some people like challenging content. Some people want to use cheat codes and they find that fun. As long as their version of fun doesn't affect others negatively, what's the harm? At the end of the day, letting players play how they want, within those confines, seems good for the game to me.

And yes the more you spend on gear, the more you stand to be devalued by nerfs, especially broad nerfs like this.

gusty oxide
#

Sorry about the tag!! Ugh in the car😭

formal shoal
#

I will say it's pretty universal that players who don't find any challenge start to lose interest.