#[POLL] Would you support an added fee to the locksmith pool for the health of the game?

1 messages · Page 2 of 1

halcyon delta
#

What would this accomplish? locksmiths already earn exp at a significantly lower rate than someone running bounties.

patent cosmos
halcyon delta
#

Ssssoooo.... take what's already not the best way to earn exp and make it an even worse way.... gotcha.

covert spoke
#

How is it not the best? You fry, rest, fry constantly with no limit. And you can do it without actually actively doing anything.

patent cosmos
iron blaze
#

Isn't that just script checking the pickers?

patent cosmos
iron blaze
#

I'd wager it's just not done enough. When they do it, the bots vanish for a bit!

halcyon delta
#

Running bounties I can be saturated almost constantly and instantly a absorbing a couple hundred exp every time I turn in a task. As far as the afk ones are concerned.... if they aren't being reported and/or GMs aren't script checking them, none of these ideas are going to put a dent in that.

brave fjord
#

🔥

chrome lichen
#

yeah, I dont have data to support it, but I'm guessing bot pickers pass more script checks than you think. I dont have any rogues that do the pool, but when I did, they were script checked every week or every other week.

Setting that aside.... Chaining bounties is hands down the fastest way to earn exp, and is wildly more lucrative.

dusk wind
#

Here's how easy it is to defeat script checks at the pool.

Just ignore everything related to you working the pool, other players working the pool, you opening boxes, other players opening boxes.

You'll only see a script check.

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iron blaze
#

I also think once a week is not enough. I would say multiple hours of being at the pool -> bank and back should warrant a script check. But then it also gets pretty invasive.

So you're argument to defeating a script check is they are there and see it?
Clearly they're not afk...

#

There's also a script running around that some people use that do the same thing for every line of text in the game.

dusk wind
#

What I mean is, it's really easy to be semi afk if you only have to watch for a script check and have parsed out every single piece of noise because you don't need to pay attention to anything else because the script automates everything else for you.

chrome lichen
brave fjord
#

If they’re passing the script checks, then they’re not AFK. Besides, some aren’t passing, as we semi-regularly see the cycles.

If the cycles truly involve repeat offenders as Arshathian claims, then that’s a problem, though I haven’t exactly been spying on every pool to know if that’s the case or not.

patent cosmos
#

That's why I'm suggesting just limiting the amount that can be gained.

iron blaze
#

I find it very disingenious to be like all these people are afk, but they pass script checks, so I'm gonna push the goal post and change the meaning.

patent cosmos
#

I don't know that the people who I'm talking about are afk. I know that if I drag them out of the room, they don't realize if for like 45 minutes 🙂

dusk wind
#

Are we so stuck on the policy debate that we can't acknowledge that scripts are easier than ever to parse, once again, thanks to automation?

Is anyone seriously working the locksmith pool for even 1 hour straight while staring at the game window with rapt attention instead of having one eye on youtube and glancing over at the game window every minute or so?

Or playing two accounts with 1 hunting and the other working the pool?

iron blaze
#

🥅 ---------> 🥅

halcyon delta
#

I have one account, don't use lich, and when I play my locksmith I'll be at the pool for several hours manually picking.... only tabbing to another screen if I hit the box limit and am waiting til I can get another.

patent cosmos
brave fjord
#

If someone has one eye on YouTube, they must be at the keyboard. What Arshathian is describing is more a case of true AFK bots. Or characters who sit there failing to pick up a scarab for 5 minutes instead of 5 seconds. Or the old classic Cysaegir crew that would just leave dozens of scarabs on the ground for awake players and my F2P alt to take.

#

Or, on the flip side of the locksmith pool, characters I’ve spotted stuck in some script loop of leaving and entering the pool for half an hour for some reason. (I assume they’re trying to drop boxes and their pool’s full or something.)

dusk wind
#

We literally have this. Whole intent is to parse lines that have not been seen at least 5 times to a separate window for easier observation.

Stick a sound effect on it and good to go.

The underlying issue with silver geneation is the level of automation that is achievable. We can automate paying attention to a large degree.

image.png
iron blaze
#

According to Wyrom the underlying issue was creating the locksmith pool.

dusk wind
brave fjord
#

Serious question because I genuinely don’t know: has automation gotten substantially better after the locksmith pool was created?

iron blaze
#

more widely yes
I say that because it has gotten smarter allowing for more people to use it.

dusk wind
#

100%.


2/2020     Locksmith pool
 1/2021     Loot cap

12/2022     95% of players earning less than 2 mil on average per month, 1 mil median.

6/2025     95% of players earning a median of 4 mil per month.


Not even focused on the top 5%.  The top 5 % are capped at 35 mil, maybe 40-45 mil with purifying gems.  Problem solved when you consider some players were earning well over 100 mil, 200 mil, 400 mil per month.

How much higher is 2025?
Absolute increase:
5.55 B − 2.70 B ≈ 2.85 B silvers more per month.

Relative increase:
5.55 B ÷ 2.70 B ≈ 2.06× (about a 105 % jump).

So, with the bottom-95 % median climbing from 1 M to 4 M while the top cohort stays capped, the game is now minting nearly 2.9 billion extra silvers every month compared with late 2022 assuming 1,000 players total.
Image```

Sloot was the prevalent script.  Who made sloot? Who made the locksmith pool...

Elanthia Online really wasn't a thing until after Loot Cap too...

Look at what I can churn out thanks to Chat GPT
brave fjord
#

Hmm. This is interesting to me because, while I acknowledge that (just for example) eloot is better than sloot, I don’t regard it as gamechangingly better. But I have absolutely no idea what’s happened with bigshot or wander or whatever else people might use. I guess it could easily get much easier or better when I’m not looking.

dusk wind
latent void
#

I feel like this has become a quest to see how far from the poll we can get...

iron blaze
#

Get out of here with your on-topic bs!

brave fjord
#

Heh, I edited while you were saying that, but I don’t automate anything except the locksmith pool and looting creatures. (Arguably not even looting creatures since I do have to manually start ;eloot for each round of dead creatures.)

True automation masters would be horrified to know what I do. “What, you need 3-8 aliased foreach commands to unload?! You manually cast Major Sanct for a breather to field heal?!”

dusk wind
#

Is there a single player in this forum post that is actually making this average or this median?

image.png
iron blaze
#

The way I see it the locksmith pool caused people to pick up their boxes, then they got a taste of the silvers and wanted more, so they slowly adopted bigshot. Bigshot's been updated and updated to incorporate about anything you can think of causing more adoption. You have Ecleanse that is literally saving lives in the field.

So the automation has increased yes. But I still feel the pool was the cataclyst, and without the pool I would expect people to be leaving boxes again how they were. But at the same time, that would affect the lower end way more than the upper end whom likely never left boxes anyways.

brave fjord
#

Probably not on the average and median thing. Discord is always a wildly skewed demographic.

crystal latch
barren cloak
dusk wind
#

Sloot first date:
11-19-2015

Eloot first date:
9-4-2024

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crystal latch
#

Roughly 6 hour average per day with a focus on bounties for exp. If I get a string of herb/search heirloom tasks my loot goes down some, but 5m is around the average

chrome lichen
iron blaze
#

eloot didn't increase anything over sloot as far as generation. Let's be real

barren cloak
dusk wind
#

If you don't think we have an automation issue that is the root cause of the silver problem, just look at how quickly eloot has been adopted compared to sloot.

iron blaze
#

Eloot is the next version of sloot. It's not some new script. Adoption?

dusk wind
#

Eloot has 3900 DLs compared to Sloots 1400 but sloot had a nearly 9 year head start.

twin zealot
iron blaze
#

Ok, next look at the change logs and how many updates each went through. It's easy to compare numbers in a vacuum when you ignore all the details.

barren cloak
dusk wind
#

Education of the community, trust of the community in Elanthia Online, equals more adoption by the playerbase at large equals more issues.

brave fjord
#

Oh, I kind of lost track of my point earlier, but I concede that if automation has broadly improved after the locksmith pool was created, it seems somewhat implausible to pin it down on just the locksmith pool. But Wyrom does have better tools for visibility and, even ignoring that, he might just have meant that the pool is far and away the biggest single contributor in recent times.

dusk wind
#

Can we really not acknowledge that the extremely helpful and wonderful folks contributing to Elanthia Online have inadvertently caused more wide spread automation?

barren cloak
#

does EO have a lockpicking script? it sounds like that might be the real productivity improvement

dusk wind
#

And I mean every word of that. I think all the players that have contributed their time are fantastic individuals. But... automation has become a more widespread issue.

prime barn
#

dreaven's tpick is what people use

iron blaze
prime barn
#

The rock mechanic in the Hive indicates they recognize that gems in and of themselves as a sole form of loot in an area present farming risk

brave fjord
#

I'm learning from this thread that I'm basically in the Stone Age just getting by on volume of characters, doing dumb nonsense like having two aliases that attempt to "put right" in different disks consectively until they find an empty one, while the world is passing me by. 🤣

dusk wind
iron blaze
# dusk wind Wyrom literally said its automation

Again, no one has said automation doesn't play a part.

[The majority of people, prior to the locksmith pool, did not open their boxes. Not the best game design, but it was quickly realized we were depending on that.](#game-chatter message)

barren cloak
#

just because wyrom says it's automation does not mean that is correct. getting rid of eloot today would not really reduce the amount of looting, because just using LOOT does 95% of what eloot does when it comes to picking stuff up. getting rid of tpick would drastically reduce looting at the top end, but the boxes would still get opened in a week anyway.

abstract lantern
#

Automation is the major contributing factor. It's also one that we can't really do anything about.

barren cloak
#

fix the problem by adding a lootcap-style cap to monthly boxes added to the locksmith pool

iron blaze
#

Getting rid of eloot would slow down dealing with loot. It would have zero impact on generating loot. Don't forget the amazing loot and loot room verbs they gave us.

dusk wind
#

Everyone in this forum post for the most part is probably able to write scripts and figure stuff out pretty quickly.

Take away eloot and silver recovered after generation would tank.

iron blaze
#

Have you not met ChatGPT? Anyone can write a script.

brave fjord
#

Any time I get a character deep enough into loot cap that skins are basically worthless, I actually drop using eloot on that characters and do just LOOT and LOOT ROOM. It's faster for me. The upsides of eloot for me are A) skins and B) not picking up things like heavy quartz orbs, but I've mostly worked around the latter with aliases.

barren cloak
#

fput loot room

I replaced eloot

dusk wind
barren cloak
#

the real hot take is that they shouldn't have coded LOOT ROOM and they should now restrict the use of the LOOT command to platinum subscriptions.

brave fjord
#

I'm perfectly content with my aliased foreach loops for unloading, but I acknowledge that maybe other players would not be.

iron blaze
#

no foreach, that's automation. You gotta type every character. Don't even think about making a macro for each box type!

dusk wind
#

Tikba for product manager.

barren cloak
#

I manually type my foreach loops lol

dusk wind
#

Gems and skins aren't a huge problem.

Remove container, sell container.

brave fjord
#

In the no-scripts-at-all world, I think we'd basically only pick up gems since the game has a way to handle bulk selling those. (I know it can handle bulk selling skins too, but without scripts, we wouldn't spend the time skinning.)

abstract lantern
#

Yeah, that's what this whole thread has become about (shifting from the poll topic back to the converation that prompted the poll). Folks sharing ideas of how to resolve the issue that automation is causing. I only started using scripts to loot few years back, the decades before then I did it all by hand. The convenience of hitting a macro to loot the room is something I'd not want to give up. It doesn't cause me to gain any more than I was before, but it makes my life easier.

barren cloak
#

I mean I wouldn't play the game in the no scripts at all world, even in the 90s we had sbc

iron blaze
#

So it sounds like automation isn't THE problem eh? It plays a part sure. But as Wyrom pointed out, people keeping more of their loot is the problem.

brave fjord
#

I think we should just take automation as a given and go from there when brainstorming solutions.

barren cloak
#

loot automation is not the problem, but hunting automation is an issue imo, just not one wyrom wanted to talk about

abstract lantern
dusk wind
#

Automation allowed more players than ever to keep their loot. Loot was a huge pain to deal with but more widespread adoption beyond the 50 players or so in this forum post caused a bigger problem than the handful of players still hitting loot cap.

prime barn
#

Yeah but it's not going away, so we need solutions that acknowledge automation is here to stay

barren cloak
#

you can't say that without more information than just the mean and median, but even with what we have, the mean being twice the median is indicative that your suggestion is wrong. most of the problem is actually the 50 players in this forum post, plus the 6 players who are too smart to post in this forum post but are playing even more characters than any of us.

iron blaze
#

Speculation is all there is though!

abstract lantern
#

It's just like Lootcap itself would be more effective without automation because you can't effectively MA without automation. You're not going to effectively loot farm without MAing. You're not going to bring in the levels of silver that unblance the game if you're not farming. Automation/MA are both obstacles that have to be worked around to find a solution to the problem, and they're just going to be a part of any set of solutions that anyone comes up with.

chrome lichen
#

that's where it becomes tricky...
what's the biggest risk, more automation and silvers in the economy.
Or reduced revenue to keep the lights on from less MA'ing?

abstract lantern
chrome lichen
#

Right. Not an easy needle to thread.

barren cloak
#

It could definitely be policed but I agree they have decided not to try

dusk wind
#

The conversation has made me rethink the platinum migration somewhat. Its not an insignificant number of subscriptions that migrated. Let's call it 100. Could the game have survived the loss of 100 platinum subscriptions?

barren cloak
#

The only person who can answer that is the person who manages the P/L

iron blaze
#

Platinum had a 100 people? That's crazy
I swore prime only had 100 people

dusk wind
#

Lol, that's why I said subscriptions.

I'm not claiming there were 100 individual players, but Im pretty confident 100 subscribers migrated from plat to prime.

abstract lantern
# dusk wind The conversation has made me rethink the platinum migration somewhat. Its not a...

I know the Plat migration has both fans and haters. I think it was an eloquent solution that will most likely benefit game longevity, and was the right call. Also, as they introduce incentives for the Prime-based "Platinum" subscription, it's likely to convert a lot of sales that wouldn't have happened otherwise. I know I'm one of them that's likely one more perk away from pulling the trigger.

#

I also think it's relevant to to the conversation as a really good example of how the sudden appearance of hundreds of attuned items into the game world had zero negative impact on the secondary market or overall game economy. I really do think attuned buy-ins (in some fashion) would go a long way towards consuming a ton of the silvers being generated (as well as silver hoards). It wouldn't even have to step on the toes of pay events.

tidal estuary
# dusk wind Are we so stuck on the policy debate that we can't acknowledge that scripts are ...

I hop in once or twice a day and pick boxes until my brain is full on two different characters. That is what I'm doing during that time. Not running a lockpicking script, not watching youtube, not hunting a character on a different account.

If other people are doing those things and still passing script checks then more power to them I guess.

There are certain individuals that I see at the pool nearly every day, almost every time of day. I have to assume they are passing the script checks or they wouldn't still be there. I also note that it is not uncommon when someone dies or is injured or similar that, with very few exceptions, there are very extended delays before there is a reaction... if any at all. I have to assume these folks are still passing the script checks but I would argue that they really aren't very engaged with the game while they are locksmithing.

I'm not going to tell other people how to play the game but I don't think the current policy really discourages inattentive play (limited attention scripting) and I do think it is detrimental to the game... but still within policy.

chrome lichen
tidal estuary
#

I'm not. It takes GMs away from other activities. It's not like they are standing arouind looking for something to script check all day long.

barren cloak
dusk wind
#

There are definitely times when there are no GMs actively monitoring anything. The game does not have 24/7 staff

chrome lichen
#

hmmm, i guess that's a good point

barren cloak
#

I think it’s funny that people (who are scripting) have created this idea that the policy is “pass script checks.” That’s not the policy, the policy is don’t afk script. Script checks are just the way they test this. The criminals in a Colombo episode aren’t innocent before Colombo catches them, they’re just criminals who didn’t get caught yet!

chrome lichen
#

The concept that "passing a script check" is the litmus test for whether someone is AFK scripting or not. That's why it's phrased that way.

That being said, I feel like we're quickly spiraling away from the intent of the thread now.

prime barn
#

This thread stopped being useful like 6 hours after it was started

dusk wind
#

Woaw woaw woaw, its been very useful for burning time.

mortal bear
chrome lichen
dusk wind
#

I think its the longest discussion in recent memory to not get shut down by a GM within a day or two

chrome lichen
tidal estuary
#

It's been civil so no reason to shut it down.

abstract lantern
#

I enjoy any conversation that prompts me to think about different perspectives and check my own. Ultimately, I think everyone wants to maintain the health and longevity of GS, and I feel like its been constructive in brainstorming various ways that could be accomplished. Hopefully, buried somewhere in there, it's useful to staff... even if just getting a better feel of what the playerbase thinks.

dusk wind
#

Whirlin is parsing the information.

barren cloak
prime barn
halcyon delta
iron blaze
#

You're not worried about being out numbered?

patent cosmos
# chrome lichen The concept that "passing a script check" is the litmus test for whether someone...

I don't care about attacking afk scripting per se. I only care if it negatively affects someone else's experience. People should be able to do what they like as long as it is not at someone else's expense. How it relates to the locksmith pool is that some of the suggested changes could make it so bots would be more likely to negatively affect someone else's experience. That led me to some of my suggestions about how to handle it, or limit the impact. In that regard, it is very much in the discussion... but only as it relates to crafting pool mechanics.

halcyon delta
chrome lichen
twin zealot
river otter
#

Apologize if someone already made the comment, but a lot of the silver generation increase we see is probably due to gear and experience inflation. I mean, my guy hunts at least twice as fast as he did several years ago solely due to better gear, a massive mana pool, some ASC skills and a better enhancive set

dusk wind
#

Nope, good point though.

river otter
#

All of these fancy new scripts that get released at the festivals continue to expand our killing power and speed. That can be offset by the different loot mitigation or silver drain strategies you guys have mentioned above. Also by introducing much harder critters that give standard loot but other non-standard (exp?) rewards to incentivize people to chase after them

iron blaze
#

I hunt for the exp, not the loot! Well and for gemstones now.

dusk wind
#

That's what ascension was supposed to do

Much harder critters,
Non standard rewards -> gemstones, lte

river otter
#

They could release harder critters that are much more likely to drop gemstones. This would make people spam kill less and reduce the silver generation (and more gemstones released also means more silver drain through the gemstone system)

abstract lantern
# river otter All of these fancy new scripts that get released at the festivals continue to ex...

I've heard the suggestion for "death zones" mentioned in several various threads in relation to wildly different topics. When I hear someone mention it, I think about the mechanics behind DR endless arena, and how those might apply to creating such a place that shifts the focus from loot to other rewards. Something along the lines of the longer you're hunting there, the more powerful the spawns become.

river otter
#

I wouldn’t mind having to choose between hunting for great exp rewards OR good loot. We don’t need to get both at the same time

short pilot
#

What if the problem is that the players lower end just aren't playing enough? Make them play more, they're holding us back! /s

dusk wind
#

I would 100 percent change to a no loot hunting ground if the exp rewards were commiserate

median hollow
dusk wind
#

Just for ascension grounds a toggle for no loot but you can still find gemstones and legendaries.

No skins, gems, or boxes but atps go from 1 per 50k to 1 per 25k.

iron blaze
short pilot
#

Dang slackers

median hollow
brave fjord
#

Not referring to that specific idea, but there have been a decent number of ideas in here that people will claim is targeted at demographic X when, in reality, it would actually hit everybody else and demographic X would either easily work around or even benefit from it.

#

Which isn't to say they're worth discarding. Maybe they're still worth implementing, just not always for the reason people propose them.

dusk wind
#

All my proposals would benefit me and me alone to be clear.

barren cloak
round geyser
iron blaze
#

I thought this thread was about the unsustainable amounts of silver being generated.
Also, would it be so bad if claim went away? If we're being honest the majority of claim books end up in the top 5% hands anyways.

round geyser
#

Forcing more people to grind 24/7 isn't helping generate less silver

patent cosmos
#

Maybe this is just hitting me later than others, but it seems like many people would just as soon not get a ton of silver from serial hunting, but its just a side effect of hunting... and why throw it away. Seems like a simple flag that trades off silvers-based loot vs. gemstone drop chance would be a great improvement.

Flag on... less loot, more gemstones.
Flag off... same loot, less gemstones.

iron blaze
barren cloak
dusk wind
#

The ambiguousness of the activities that contribute towards finding a gemstone or not is part of the crux. If I knew what I would have to do to move the needle I might make a decision to be content with 1.

chrome lichen
round geyser
#

I included some hyperbole, but yes, that is what I was saying.

barren cloak
#

People aren’t finding their first monthly gem?

dusk wind
#

Aint no one in this forum going to be content with 1 gemstone when you can find 3.

chrome lichen
#

He's saying to find the maximum allowed. When given a goalpost, everyone aims for the goalpost.

Don't intentionally try to be difficult 😏

barren cloak
round geyser
#

I think confusion between gemstone cap and silver cap was had.

crude leaf
#

I feel like there are enough silver drains. Just cap silvers per month at 10m per toon and be done with it

chrome lichen
#

That very well could be the case. I thought Tikba was referencing silver, as I've never heard someone mention "hard cap" and gemstones together.

brave fjord
#

Must find all Gemstones or I'm devaluing my subscription.
-The average GS player typical GS player participating in the gemstones channel, probably

barren cloak
#

Yeah, I think this kind of was the point I was making. People say “the system expects you to always do this thing” but they’re pointing at the place where the system says “you’ve been playing way too much and we’re turning off rewards for you, after already turning them way down to encourage you to do something else.” And all the responses said “well obviously, why would that not be the case?”

iron blaze
#

There is someone who claimed to not find the first gem over 5 weeks, yes

abstract lantern
#

So, maybe a touchy subject, but I'm genuinely curious what the old silvers games at fests used to drain each year before we switched to alt currency and removed them. That felt like a direct assault on excess silver, but maybe it was really minimal at the price point? I just remember dozens and dozens of people standing there for days popping silvers one go after the next.

dusk wind
abstract lantern
# dusk wind https://discordapp.com/channels/226045346399256576/387270949499830273/1382769094...

This excludes digging and multi-game. Digging had a bigger ROI, but a higher time commitment to get there. Multi-game was a drain, but would eventually run GMs ragged on item creation. That doesn't really answer the question beyond saying that it actually worked. The way it was done was GM labor intensive because the jackpots were mostly unique items. I remain curious how well it worked, and if using a selection of more OTS/vanilla, though still high demand items, would be worthwile.

dusk wind
#

As far as item creation goes, its not really whether the item is plain or special or OTS. The method of creating items and loading them in the feeder or mechanism for the games is time consuming. It's not a copy and paste thing once you make an item once from my understanding.

brave fjord
#

Multi-games drained, I'm sure, but digging was actually profit for those of us patient enough to sing to the gems.

...in a sense, anyway. Could have made far more just not singing to the gems and hunting instead, but obviously that assumes gaining less exp via resting (singing) less. But I would build up stockpiles of thousands of gems to sing to for the next six months, recouping everything spent on digging while still having the jackpots on top of it.

abstract lantern
#

Yeah, digging literally generated loot. 😄 That's why I didn't mention it. The multi-games though seemed like straight up silver consumption at slot-machine rates of use. If it was highly-effective, and folks seemed to enjoy it, might be worth considering modifying it to be less labor intensive and let folks throw silvers for days on end.

dusk wind
#

Well the most recent equivalent is the piles.

brave fjord
#

That's a good point. They should use those piles more.

abstract lantern
#

That's true, that's a pretty close equivalent.

dusk wind
#

From what I understand of those, they're self-sustaining to an extent having a fixed inventory that randomly generates.

abstract lantern
#

I mean, the code for Darkboxes functions very close to the old multi-games. Back when darkboxes were GM-events, most I think figured it worked essentially the same way.

dusk wind
# 
[GS4]

OP
 — 9/3/2023 5:04 PM
The prize pile is out that lets you SEARCH it for 1,000,000 silver.  It's where the grass is, and if you haven't used the grass you still have time.```
```Wyrom
[GS4]

OP
 — 9/4/2023 1:36 AM
Shops at Duskruin including HESS, excluding wheelbarrow: 129,201,557
Wheelbarrow: 61,500,000
August Smithy Weighting:  18,106,410 
August Smithy Padding: 18,279,399
September Smithy Weighting: 9,083,774 
September Smithy Padding: 9,798,994
Number of people who touched grass: 583
Prize pile searches: 321

Way more was spent vs what was generated this run.```

321 mil silvers from this pile.
# 
[GS4]

OP
 — 8/30/2023 8:37 PM
Log in once since I started tracking, though I slowed down on tracking because I can follow some other metrics better now.  We can see the majority of silver out there, unless you have it under a mattress somewhere.  Anytime you use a shop in town, it's tracked.  For example, today the locksmith NPC has made 618,552 silver, random shops around the game have made 3,659,980 silver plus 2,000 silver from some older one that likely needs to be updated, and misc shopping has done 72,975,000 silver (last one is in a week).  So we can go through a lot of data these days to see how things are going.  Most months see it climb about 2bil or 3bil until a pay event hits with EVENT BOX, Premium Fest, random town festivals, or a larger scale event.  The prize pile that I'll put out drained several billion last time, not sure how it will do this time. ```

Just interesting data.
# 
[GS4]

OP
 — 2/28/2023 5:04 PM
Prize pile is out in Prime.  It will only be out from now until after Mania ends.  In no particular order, it has the following items:
a strand of veniom thread
a shimmering violet orb
an Adventurer's Guild task waiver
a swirling yellow-green potion
a mangled steel spoon
an Adventurer's Guild voucher pack
an Elanthian Guilds voucher pack
a handful of sparkling dust
a silver stamped voucher booklet
a shimmering blue orb
a small locker expansion contract
a swirling nexus orb
a slender wooden rod
a material swatch
a potent yellow-green potion
an oblong gold capsule
an elongated silver capsule

Cost is 1mil silver.  You can search once an hour.```

Which I'm assuming was this one?
# 
[GS4]
 — 9/4/2022 11:00 PM
Prize pile is going to be settling at 1,167,000,000 silver.
Wyrom
[GS4]
 — 9/4/2022 12:04 AM
Prize pile is approaching 1 bil.
Wyrom
[GS4]
 — 9/2/2022 11:53 PM
I'm trying to snatch up more silvers with the piles right now.
Wyrom
[GS4]
 — 9/2/2022 9:04 PM
The MANIA prize pile is out where you SEARCH for one million silver.  Exactly like previous times.  You can search once an hour.  It's located outside the HESS area.```

```Wyrom
[GS4]
 — 4/24/2022 11:42 PM
More than 6bil, but we're draining more than is being generated.  For 2022, we've drained a little north of 20bil in just these extras.  With the opt-in for more bloodscrip/exp in February, silver generation was roughly 4.7bil, but we drained double that in February in just the two EVENT BOXes and prize pile alone.  The game does an okay job at taking out the everyday silver generation at the low end.   I use February as an example just because it's typically one of the higher months of the year.```
abstract lantern
#

I wonder how much more piles would generate if they also had a chance at jackpot. Seems like a great home for some of the auction-quality gowns, discontinued pets, etc. to make a limited reappearance.

dusk wind
#

He mentions the piles being a lot of work a lot in those old messages.

rustic axle
#

Seems like the way going forward has been to reward the interaction way - LTE, more exp for cleric raises vs town cleric. More LTE for healing vs herbs.

The pool does the opposite. No drain, and even grants LTE for using it. There's more net reward for the pool vs hiring a locksmith directly when all ends are considered.

I don't want to see NPC prices either, but a small LTE reward for opening a box that was unlocked directly by another player (or yourself) should be a thing, and there should be a base fee for using the system. Even if it's only 300 silver it'd still be a drain.

It never really made sense to get a net bonus for using the pool vs a direct locksmith.

short pilot
#

The EG pile with the socks/pants/belts was the best chefkiss

median hollow
twin zealot
random sand
#

I will reiterate the idea of just making gemstones easier to find.. there is already a hard cap on them, either increase the drop rate for 2 and 3 or implement a shards-per-kill progress for a gemstone (again, keeping the hard cap), and let people go back to their lives. Lower the buying dust costs a bit, a lot.. since the world is flooded with duststones as it is. This is really just for gemstones obviously.. for silvers at large I still think the move is to give people more impermanent, non-game breaking things to spend them on. 30 day lore flare potion, anyone?

brave fjord
#

Seeing how things have played out, I think I’d just drop weekly Dust for silver to 500k->1m->no more scaling from there. Something still more expensive than what people are charging for duststones, but cheap enough that impatient people who hate dealing with merchanting might actually do it.

I could probably even be talked into just flat 750k all the time.

barren cloak
#

no direct dust sale, only gemstones

warped basalt
pine sparrow
round geyser
#

Exploiting compounding interest with that 1500 year lifespan!

night onyx
#

Has Wyrom's idea to drastically reduce box drops and dramatically increase the loot inside taken any root? That seems like an amazing idea on so many levels. I mean everyone is chasing all these other ideas, but he said from the gate that the pool was the issue he was considering. Making it more exciting to find a box would be pretty cool. The vast majority of them now are just another pile of coin and throwaway gear.

median hollow
#

The pool isn't the issue, it's a symptom.

night onyx
iron blaze
#

The under lying cause was people were leaving their boxes behind due to the hassle. The pool removed most of that hassle without adding an actual silver sink.

night onyx
#

that was my understanding too

barren cloak
#

Make boxes contain twice as much loot, quintuple the base weight of a box

iron blaze
#

Poor little people

prime barn
#

Delete halflings and gnomes while you’re at it

brave fjord
#

Inadvertent sorc buffs!

abstract lantern
# night onyx I guess this confused me then... Silver generation about doubled from 4bil a m...

The issue is automation (scripting), which isn't going anywhere. The pool amplifies that effect because it makes for an easier scripting solution that's more broadly embraced. Reducing box drop rate would be effective by way of providing a lower volume of silver generation to counter the increase in number of boxes being converted to silvers. Bumping the perceived value of each box after that change is sort of the candy coating on the bitter pill of less loot. It helps keep treasure exciting.

night onyx
abstract lantern
# night onyx I agree. I'd rather find 1 box a day with something exciting than 50 blah boxe...

Yeah, I'm on board with that change if it were to be made as presented as well. I think a lot of the additional suggestions in this thread (including mine) weren't so much as a counter to the proposed lower drop rate of boxes, but more expanding on the overall issue of automation and adjacent issue of silver consumption. All those issues are interconnected, and the ideas of how those can be somewhat mitigated are wildly varied; from taxing characters (i.e. the poll that initiated this thread) to providing a wider array of ways to spend silvers.

#

I tend to think of threads like these as a sort of voluntary thinktank. Rather than being a thread where everyone is trying to provide the solution, folks are presenting their ideas toward potential fixes for consideration, discussion, and evaluation. Hopefully, the net result is constructive in providing some concepts for decision makers to build upon. Even "bad" ideas have merit and can provide perspective.

warped basalt
# warped basalt
poll_question_text

Tax elfs at 600 percent. Cause... "health"... or sum udder nebulous idear?

victor_answer_votes

3

total_votes

5

victor_answer_id

3

victor_answer_text

Oooo...anna how!

median hollow
barren cloak
#

put box drops on the gemstone system

brave fjord
#

Finally, Tikba's getting on board with cleric nerfs!

median hollow
solemn dome
#

Make the house cut on the pool equal to the loot cap %.

iron blaze
barren cloak
round geyser
#

No boxes drop anymore, the pool just occasionally has one for you to pick up, the pool will generate boxes to unlock on request. All quietly tweakable in the background so people don't break the economy actually picking up the loot hunting gives

arctic parrot
#

I view it differently. Rogues can take advantage of the locksmith pool the same as any other profession. Locksmithing proficiency comes at the expense of combat effectiveness. Were I to suggest a change, I’d propose adjusting the pool to address the cost of lockpicks and lockpick blanks, which currently makes participation prohibitively expensive. Alternatively, roll back the archery nerf that unfairly targeted rogues—restoring their ability to hunt and pick with equal proficiency.

spare shale
#

What archery nerf?

arctic parrot
# spare shale What archery nerf?

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Z6rt_HxSgSrmAoOwhVKmlgjG5vvSkHRn8c6CConnS7U/edit?tab=t.0#heading=h.lg7cfqnmq107 ```Archery Tuning
Archery is currently too strong and needs to be brought down slightly in terms of power. The following are reasons why archery is currently strong:
3 second minimal RT makes it extremely fast.
The low rank 4 fatal crit threshold of eyes coupled with 100% piercing damage on weapons with solid AvD and DF values.
It’s the only weapon system where acquiring a 10x weapon is trivial.
It completely bypasses the parry portion of DS and, for most critters, this means their ranged DS is especially low.
Encumbrance does not affect firing RT which is unique to every other system.

We’re making the following changes:
✔️Basic arrows will be changed from 100% puncture to 66% puncture, 33% slash.
✔️Enchant will be removed from arrows (exception: any old scripted items that generate ammo will continue to retain the enchant bonus).```

iron blaze
#

Still waiting for them to fix encumbrance. Then archery will feel pretty good again.

spare shale
halcyon delta
#

I dunno why that doc says arrows were changed from 100% puncture, they were puncture/slash since 2005 at least.....

iron blaze
#

The enchant change also allows us to hit demons now instead of a fake 10x.

kind fox
#

What if we put less coin in the boxes and added more loot in general to find.

When’s the last time a Bergman original was found?

quasi spoke
#

Having only recently come back after being gone for years I find the pool just wrong, a lot of the fun of GS3 and at least Early GS4 was the socialazation that went on while waiting for your turn with the pickers and watching the really skilled pickers work. Somebody commented on Rouges having to choose between picking and combat skills. Has the class been Nerfed over the years? Rogues used to be excellent at both using one hand edged or ranged weapons from the shadows. I find the whole lockpicking pool just wrong, what's next a healers pool?

covert spoke
iron blaze
#

Wait til he finds out about survivalist kits

round geyser
#

I for one am happy I'm not forced to sit around the equivalent of the bomb squad to maybe make an extra few thousand silvers from my hunt.

#

The lockpickers aren't penalized for being telepathic anymore, feel free to chat with them from anywhere in the world!

tidal estuary
# quasi spoke Having only recently come back after being gone for years I find the pool just w...

The socialization (generally speaking) at the picker died out long before the locksmith pool was introduced. People either used the town locksmith (even at their exorbitant pricing) or many folks just left their boxes on the ground. It was difficult to find boxes to work as a locksmith rogue outside of mostly hunting up your own.

The locksmith pool was a great solution to continue to connect people with boxes to rogues with lockpicks as more the norm vs. the exception.

To your question about rogues. Yes, they can still be excellent hunters and locksmiths. I have a rogue that picks their own boxes and works the pool with 2x training in disarm and picking (presently at level 90 so it's not a challenge from 1-90 at least). It is also now much more possible to be a locksmith only rogue. I also have a locksmith rogue with 3x disarm and 2x picking training. They almost exclusively open boxes for people (primariy via the pool).

Also - welcome back! It's still a great game but players (generally speaking) don't want to spend a large portion of their play time waiting on their boxes to be opened.

covert spoke
#

FWIW, I created a script called ;squelch_pool you can now enable to remove about 60% of that unnecessary messaging from other players. Helps to have conversations again!

quasi spoke
#

What does it filter

warped basalt
#

60% of that unnecessary messaging from other players

gilded sinew
dusky aurora
delicate crypt
# tidal estuary The socialization (generally speaking) at the picker died out long before the lo...

After returning from 20 years this was my suspicion. Did people just stop waiting for rogues? Picking only worked when it was reliable. Otherwise, why wait?

I am glad folks can still pick and build character that way.

I don't know the solution to having synchronous picking and having those RP opportunities. LTE? Enforced fee from the pool? Should the pool just hold your boxes and send a runner to you when a locksmith available?

iron blaze
#

Well apparently most people left their boxes behind. Then the locksmith pool was introduced and no one leaves their boxes behind. So we're dealing with economy issues!

autumn python
#

It's wild, outside of PCs with broken loot scripts, I don't remember piles of boxes being left behind.

iron blaze
#

I mean the man who sees everything is the one who said it.

autumn python
#

I understand the issue today, I'm just saying in the past I don't remember seeing that happen. Misperception is a thing though, and I don't hang out on the western half of the game continent (where the vast majority of gameplay occurs)

gilded sinew
#

There are days people abandon boxes in HW, I always assume broken bot scripts

prime barn
#

It’s more likely people gemstone farming who don’t want to slow down for loot.

gilded sinew
#

Maybe. But it's almost always the same bot group that does it

#

Plus side I got a very nice enhancive from one of their boxes

short pilot
prime barn
#

I’ve gone out on my gnome sorc, killed two mobs in the forest and been crushingly encumbered and been like “what the”. Even for a gnome it happens fast at the start of the month when the “no loot for me thanks” group is around

lofty forge
#

I bet those don't count against your loot cap either as the system didn't generate them to you.

quasi spoke
#

Want to fix the game economy? introduce breakage/degradation system for weapons and armor so they don't stay in the game forever. make crafting and enchanting easer and cheaper to learn, let us use antlers horns and bones to craft handles for weapons and buttons and buckles for shoes, let us make wraps for weapon hafts and handles from skins

round geyser