#Battle Standard (1620)

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still thicket
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Below is a proposal we're currently considered for a Paladin profession service ability. Many of the details are still a work in progress, but feel free to review it and provide any feedback.

Disclaimer: This is just a design proposal. Any or all changes referenced in this document can and are likely to change as the mechanics are implemented and tested. Do not make any decisions (such as training choices or purchases at events) for your characters based upon what is listed in this proposal. You will not be compensated or refunded for any adjustments made to this design after the fact.

  • Spell slot 1620 becomes Battle Standard.
  • Allows the Paladin to create a battle standard, which is a newly created scripted item.
    • Uses its own inventory slot.
    • Visibility can be toggled
    • Defaults to a banner to match the Paladin's deity, but can be altered.
    • Only 1 battle standard can be worn at a time.
  • Has charges similar to Bard's Lucky items that deplete over time while in combat. A Paladin may expend Devotion to recharge it.
  • Deity messaging and criticals will be set on the standard itself, which first defaults to the deity of the Paladin who performs the tier 1 service. Any character may take the standard to a shrine and pray to it to convert it to a new deity once per month.
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Tier 1: Rally
While dead, allows a corpse to teleport to town (similar to Aid the Fallen (1613)). 1 use per day at T1 and 2 uses per day at T3.

Tier 2: Hallowed Reprisal
Activate to gain Hallowed Reprisal. Similar to Flaming Aura (1706), but uses deity flares. Uses SMR to determine success, flares every 10 seconds, lasts for 3 minutes, and has a 60 minute cooldown with -15 minutes at T3, T4, and T5 (15 minute cooldown at T5).

Tier 3: Reckoning
While the battle standard is worn, the character has a chance to flare deity specific flares with attacks. Based upon standard flare rate, but decreased chance until T5.

Tier 4: Ardent Plea
Activate to cause all attacks to trigger the Reckoning for 30 seconds. 30 minute cooldown with -15 minutes at T5 (15 minute cooldown at T5).

Tier 5: Divine Bulwark
When receiving a critical hit, there is a chance (standard flare rate) to summon an ethereal shield to lessen the blow. Reduces a critical by 1 rank and causes a deity flare against the attacker (SMR to resolve).

Tier 6: Final Stand
Activate to trigger Divine Bulwark and for it to persist for 30 seconds. Can be activated while incapacitated. 1 use per day.

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Resource
Paladins will earn Devotion, which is then used to bless a battle standard.

1 | 50,000
2 | 75,000
3 | 100,000
4 | 125,000
5 | 150,000
6 | 200,000```


**Titles**
* A title is earned after 50 weeks of Devotion spent (e.g. Clerics earn Sanctifier, Bards earn Lucky).
* A title is earned after 15 T6 services have been completed (e.g. Clerics earn Holy Flame, Bards earn Fated Fortune).

**Notes**
* Paladins will have a yet to be determined innate benefit for using battle standards (similar to how Clerics get stronger Holy Fire flares, etc).
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Reserved.

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Reserved.

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Reserved.

clear totem
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This seems neat. -- also now errybody gonna need to find their faiths paladin for RP purposes ;D

thorny ice
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Happy that we got to 15 min cooldowns on these

dusty matrix
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Looks good to me with the new cooldown details finalized.

How many charges will it have? (Just asking for informational purposes. I don't mind either way whether it's 100 like mystic tattoos, 200 like lucky items, or something else entirely.)

knotty nova
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yay for Paladins!

viscid relic
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One question: where is the standard worn? Speaking for my own character, for RP reasons he has a Night Blade standard that he wears over his shoulder, hence why I'm asking. Not sure if can be turned into a "Battle Standard" too or not but if it helps, this is the analyze (assuming we might be able to turn an exististing standard to one)?


The creator has also provided the following information:
This white silk standard responds to the following verbs: WAVE, RAISE, TURN, and TAP.

It can be altered by a talented merchant but it MUST remain some kind of flag or banner.  For small flags that can be worn, "Pennon" or "Standard" are the only acceptable nouns.

THESE CAN NEVER BE LIGHTENED.

This white silk standard responds to the verbs WEAR and REMOVE.  When worn, it alters your UNIQUE field and appears in your features.```
dusty matrix
viscid relic
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awww missed that... still not seeing that actually said (sorry!) but if true then that's cool and a big sigh of relief 🙂

I see it now. And looks like we actually create it from scratch and not buy a standard if I'm reading that right. I'm looking forward to any potential deity flavor messaging when creating it hehe.

Am still wondering, though, if it's still plausable to just use one a pre-existing standard or not. If not, then that's fine but it would be nice if able to for those of us that might already have a standard of sorts.

dusty matrix
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It's in the OP. 😛

blissful zenith
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So Warhammer

kindred grail
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for the emperor

trail oracle
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This thing looks really good. Ship it.

blissful zenith
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Wtb t1 paladin thing ttm

stable merlin
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Hopefully the Battle Standard shop is located at the top of the Dragonspine Fane and they only sell you 1 every 24 hours

timid cipher
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I'll pick one up when I remember to get a holy symbol for 340, so basically never.

rapid fox
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I wanna turn my fluff Jungle Samoyed pennon into a Jungle Samoyed God Battle Standard

flint wadi
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I like it, well done everyone

viscid relic
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a question on titles: is it possible to get a prename title or will they all be post title? Respectfully requesting is all.

this is exciting 🙂

stable merlin
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The only thing that we never directly addressed is the T2, is it the same as 1706 in terms of strength and hit rate? Says SMRv but I assume its probably the same old formula that doen't really excel in ascenion.

thorn dirge
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I greatly dislike cooldown mechanics in this game. When I can pop a head with 1 swing, unless I'm surrounded by mobs, I may pop it, get assistance on one creature, then walk around for the other 25 seconds looking for the next thing to hit. It makes me feel my cooldown was wasted.

This game doesn't have enough "bosses" to make this sort of extended cooldown usage worth while to me. I cringe every time I see that spells or skills are going to a cooldown. I'd much rather see things operate on flare chance or a level of randomness at this point vs cooldown. The only exception to this would be on demand "saves". Where I need to get out of something, and a cooldown reduces abuse of a rescue mechanic.

Unfortunately, Battle Standard doesn't excite me.

stable merlin
thorn dirge
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Was just reading the empath updates - I think those are pretty nice. Those benefits do excite me.

thorny ice
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That item also has several cooldown abilities!

timid cipher
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It'll help on my path to becoming a Voln apostate as I regret having converted when I blow myself up with the fire flares added to all my attacks at T3.

thorn dirge
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Yes - but they're defensive in nature and are the "save" abilities I was talking about before.

Eliminating wounds for 10 minutes or recovering 25% of mana over 10 seconds. Those are pretty awesome abilities for staying out hunting a bit longer.

dusty matrix
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You can change the flare type.

past osprey
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Does Tier 2 work with 1706? You guys just sold probably hundreds of those 40x/day lol I hope they both work at once

hushed ivy
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This has much more reasonable cooldowns. I consider this a good service. I do still have questions about the Bulwark: Can it reduce a rank 1 minor to no wound

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Also, is the damage that is dealt by the blow when Bulwark triggers with the new crit rank modifier to it, or with the old? (IE, you take a rank 2 bleeder because of a rank 4 crit on the hit.. the raw was 37 for arguments sake, and the body location would increase the damage to 52 (+15). Bulwark fires however, and it only registers a rank 3 crit. Does the raw remain 37, but the body location has it's damage modifier baed on a rank 3?)

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Does this potential crit rank reduction stack with redux, resistance, and other factors?

drowsy tiger
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I’m very excited to see this and to have the opportunity to provide some feedback. Overall the idea of banners seems like a strong foundation.

Questions:

  • Can a paladin of any deity alignment work on improving any banner?
  • Will there be bonuses or penalties for working on a Lornon, Liabo, or neutral banner? (I think there should be.)
  • Is the crit rank the equivalent of 1 CER? I’m a bit uncertain of the mechanics there, maybe that’s why it feels a touch lackluster to me.

Ideas for consideration:

  • Perhaps we could capitalize on the AURA mechanic instead of a cooldown mechanic?
    AURAs that offer a group Damage resistances (2-3% per Tier?) of different sorts would feel more in ‘theme’ with current paladin mechanics.
  • Have these auras work like when there are multiple paladins in the same group. The strongest aura takes precedent, so the group would need to coordinate
  • A group could have banners of different deities and have the group benefit from different types or auras.
  • Ex. A T5 banner of Koar and a T5 banner of Imaera could combine for a group aura of 10% Electric resist and 10% puncture resist. (But 2 banners of the same type probably shouldn’t stack, or should have diminishing returns.) - I could see some potential for unique combinations, for having opposing banner benefits in the same group that could create some interesting RP options.

Things I do like

  • The flare mechanics and the self-save mechanics seem very nice and helpful.
  • Mechanics that help to protect or intervene. The Bulwark seems in line with this.

Initial feedback
T6 feels a bit lackluster if it is only has a 'regular flare chance' of activating when you're in trouble, even when activating the once per day option. Perhaps I'm misunderstanding that part.

thorny ice
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CER is used to calculate a crit rank between 0 and 9 for any received damage, which determines damage, stuns/knockdowns, and wound level. this would reduce that crit rank by 1. it's not easy to compare that to CER but it would almost always be worth more than 1 CER

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you could kind of eyeball it as half your crit divisor in CER on average

meager umbra
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What stats and skills will contribute to your difficult level? Has this been discussed?

hushed ivy
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Yeah. Lowering the crit rank by 1 is the same as Lowering the raw damage by crit divisor

thorny ice
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in my envelope calculation you want to say like, the actual amount of DSW is somewhere between 0 and X points away from going down a crit rank, so taking a crit rank away takes away the average of that, so half

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I really did not explain that in a clear way

hushed ivy
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Well it's critical reduction. So the raw still stays the same. The phantom reduction could always be crit divisor and the result be correct.

mossy snow
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padding is also randomized. a static 1 reduction is inherently stronger than padding because it is a static reduction every time.

dusty matrix
thorny ice
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which makes it worth half as much sooo

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yeah just say it's worth your crit divisor in CER haha

hushed ivy
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Yup

mossy snow
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a blanket 1 reduction every time is very very good.

thorny ice
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one way you know it's really good is that the opposite effect is what 335 has that makes it the best spell

sterile torrent
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I don't even have a ranger thing yet, I'm many services behind! This looks neat though. I want one

hushed ivy
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The important question... what's our devotion called?

sterile torrent
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Pally Puddin'

hushed ivy
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Crusader Creds, pope point, Templar tears.... altar buys. Heh. Get it?

trail oracle
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Battle Standard = BS
🐂 +💩

dusk lantern
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Will the battle standard flares be separate from the flares provided by fervor?

dusty matrix
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Buying a BS6 for 3k BS per week.

hushed ivy
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What... altar buys too offensive?

stable merlin
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oh meant alter b o ys? sus

hushed ivy
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Holy moleys.

thorny ice
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I'm pretty sure you can type the word boys

hushed ivy
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Last Suppers

trail oracle
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If we call it divine inspiration it will never happen.

carmine iris
hoary bison
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Are you going to sell a basic item at the local cleric shop or are we going to generate this out of holy energy, by the way?

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Looking at Tier 5, I like the basic idea, but it seems unreliable, like it’s a half-step to T6, which is the more important thing.

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Seems like it should be a little more reliable at T5.
Can we change it to include “also vs the first hit that would take you under 50% health or deal a T3 wound (and make it one less crit rank)?” Like one guaranteed block a day, plus the rest random flare chance?

dusty matrix
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Heh, I feel exactly the opposite... I'm not interested in T6 at all since it has four weeks of devotion cost, but I need to go to T5 because that's where the scaling of other tiers' perks or cooldowns stops.

I actually think it's a good sign for both these services (paladin and empath) that people's opinions on which perks are good and which aren't vary so wildly.

meager umbra
subtle cloud
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Agree with Leaf, its a good sign the initial reactions are focused on different parts of the proposal.

I feel like the stacking flares are getting a bit overloaded. I won't gimp myself if its going to get thrown in, but I would be happy to pursue this service with Tiers 1, 2,5,6.

viscid relic
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am curious, when we create the battle standard, are we able to sell them in our player shops?

and: is there some sort of bond / affinity thing going for it such as the luck charms with Bards where once it's used you can't sell it / give it away to somebody else?

sick rivet
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Those cool down numbers are much better.

viscid relic
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any chance Tier 6 can be more than once a day or is that going to be one of the perks for paladins only?

hoary bison
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The idea is great, but the numbers are less so.

I do like the idea of a divine shield popping up sometimes.

autumn bison
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Where are you getting 1 in 7?

dusty matrix
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It's 1 in 5 for armor (or the equivalent), isn't it?

kindred grail
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yeah 1 in 5 is weapons and armor

dusty matrix
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But to more directly address the underlying point, I mean, the T5 ability by itself might not be exciting to me, sure, but it can't be evaluated by itself. The scaling all sort of works together.

If the T2, T3, and T4 excite me and I need the T5 to maximize them, then the T5 would be good enough even if it did absolutely nothing but buff the others. At least to me.

autumn bison
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Well, and by all recent conversations standard flare rate approaches ~23%, so nearly 1 in 4!
#duskruin message

And presumably this would be closer to dispel flare rates because it can't not-flare unless you die

leaden raptor
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I heard Falvicar call the service Flare Flair.

chrome nexus
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Da Pally Lobby aint rich...so Imma lil hesitant to express da same logix here dat I did when makin alla dem Empaffs mad at me.... but still... maybe jus TAHOO things, cause Pallies deserb a lil lub? Here's soooo many things fer turnin finnerwagglers into fiters? 🧦 ...bah, no.

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(also assa Shieldmaiden... we find Bulwark'd sorcererers offensiff.)

hushed ivy
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Dwi... I think this might be the first time I've had NO idea what you said. Congrats on the unadulterated frontier gibberish

deft geyser
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My input, which I won’t belabor, for the paladin service, is to please consider not requiring it be recharged (yes, I am aware of the rationale for it, and no they do not change my mind). I am not interested in having to recharge and maintain another player service.

bronze flume
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Perhaps instead of it's charge being worn down with time in combat, instead worn down from activation. Each activation or flare triggering taking a (differing) amount of charge. Able to toggle the reactive tiers on/off to save charge if you don't want that feature. So you can pick which aspect(s) you want to use, and not have it counting down all the time, burning charge.

deft geyser
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Just as a consumer, I'm not the target market for this if there are charges I have to manage.

bronze flume
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Personally I'd just get the standard for the T1, and it would be annoying to have to regularly recharge despite not using it, just in case I do need to use it.

trail oracle
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Need pins please

still thicket
kindred grail
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probably wanna pin the one that actually describes the tiers too 🙂

still thicket
tacit beacon
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Would Divine Bulwark reduce a rank 1 critical to rank 0 (ie no wound)?

median ferry
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Is this still open to discussion? There’s definitely some aspects here that are not appealing

hushed ivy
stable merlin
hushed ivy
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I'm with Leff. If you want to force repeat business, character attune them. Don't force a charge system

blissful zenith
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If you want to force repeat business make it a weapon/armor add on....but we hate that as well

heavy crow
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feel like this one could go on armor pretty nicely thematically, and maybe armor isn't as difficulty-burdened as weapons?

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or you could do something a little quirky, like allow/require a paladin to attach the standard to armor, and have that take 100k resource, but let it be charge-free while it's attached (but then can be removed and re-attached if you repay the 100k cost)

hushed ivy
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I'm also done with convoluted systems. That causes things to release like molasses, and then not get fixed. If you make it a gear service, how do you link offensive flares to armor or defensive flares to a weapon? I think a separate item is right. I just don't like the thought of charging it - and Estild only has it charge based because he was looking out for repeat business.

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Simple enough really. Character attune it so they can't pass it back and forth among alts. Plenty of business cause everyone who's not cleric or pally wants 1613

viscid relic
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suggestion: maybe one of the benefits of a paladin using a battle standard is we get Tier 1 more often than rest of classes? maybe 2 uses per day at T2 and 4 uses per day at T4? just a thought

mossy snow
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I would agree with the other suggestion to just roll old 1613 into a class ability. Or make it unlimited for pallies with the standard either way. But like with all spell consolidation / replacement ideas like that it’s a moot point until there’s something else to take its place.

hushed ivy
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You die four times a day, Fal?

viscid relic
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Not usually. but I have my bad days at Moonsedge heh

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just thought it would be a little compromise for those still wanting 1613 as is to make them see the battle standard "lost value" shrug

image.png
median ferry
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I’m with Falv, maybe make the flare happen more often or a phantom reduction on the aura cooldown

shy heart
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Fight for this to go on gear at your own peril. They're being very generous to create a new spot for this service.

trail oracle
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It makes ZERO sense to go from unique inventory slot to wanting it on gear.

dusty matrix
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This going on gear would either A) kill 735, B) kill 330, or C) kill 1620 for most individuals, because there's sure not room enough in gear difficulty for all three of them and not budget enough to get a slew of super potions to make it all happen.

Let's maybe not play Russian roulette. 😛

past osprey
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No more gear score stuff ever 👎🏻

median ferry
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Yeah I love the idea it’s a new slot, anyone who ruins that for us is getting sliced.

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… in game

deft geyser
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I’d like to see it go on ranger resist trinkets, same with bard luck and empath blood, but know that’s a lot to put on one little item.

median ferry
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Way too quiet in here…

viscid relic
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shhhhhh. silence is golden, which means maybe it's getting coded 🙂

wooden quest
sick rivet
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I think it would take an extraordinary act to make me think this was both going to happen and be a good service. 2 decades of cynicism has me on the toxic side

viscid relic
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If you don't want to believe the service is going to happen, then that's your choice. Fact is, here we are.. doing an actual channel dedicated and active in the design of the paladin service (and don't forget the empaths). If you think the service isn't good enough, then feel free to make constructive feedback. If this isn't an "extraordinary act" to show the service is the works, then I don't know what is.

bronze flume
# sick rivet I think it would take an extraordinary act to make me think this was both going ...

Given the history of all the other classes getting a service, it seems certain the two remaining ones will get one eventually, my question to you would be what would make the services count as "good". Or even "bad" for that matter?

Personly id consider it bad if the service was so lacking in impact that there's little to no demand for the services, such that a high skilled service isn't even worth 1m/week.

deft geyser
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I’d caution folks from discerning the strength of a service based on market forces…

bronze flume
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It says to me that there's a strong indicator that people want it. Doesn't nessararily mean it's balanced, but at least it's not ignored.
Unless it's so bad that no one touches it, and the one person you do find charges a high price becuase no one else touches it

deft geyser
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Or, when everyone has services available, there’s significant competition for buyers, and prices go down, not up.

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I’m just saying, market forces are weird and fickle, and silver drains are in effect, and who knows what the market will do in relationship to services right now…

stable merlin
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Bard service been out for only like 2 months and it seems like they can hardly sell at 4m per.... certainly no sanct pricing

mossy snow
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nothing was ever going to be sanc pricing. 30 years of OMG PERMABLESS was deep inside people's brain

rapid fox
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I joined voln for freeeeee! 😛

thorny ice
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4m per is a lot!

rapid fox
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well, I had to do a comedy routine I guess

mossy snow
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plus since it went on all pieces of gear you need like, 2+ per person for people who care vs the one for luck and stuff. I don't think anyone was getting the insane sanc pricing right away other than super high skill people either. i feel like it was "only" more like 5 for normal people who weren't trying to sanc someones 10x claidh. a traadeoff for no gear difficulty i guess.

rapid fox
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I mean, no matter how hard we try to balance stuff, there are gonna be some services that people want more than other services and the value of those will be higher

potent grotto
blissful zenith
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It makes dice roll......shield cloak owners know

potent grotto
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Now compare that to Sanctify. You get higher AS vs undead and a big nasty flare. Stunningly, its popular.

rapid fox
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I'm way more in on the Bard one 😛

dusty matrix
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The bard service is the strongest in the game, but yeah, people's eyes might glaze over if you explain why in detail. The messaging that would connect with people is probably more along the lines of "think of it like enchanting every piece of gear you own and ensorcelling every defensive piece of gear you own all at once, plus some other perks."

potent grotto
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I think its pretty clear pattern with services at this point. The more obtuse ones are not as popular. if its not easy to see the impact, its hard to measure the value

stable merlin
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So basically buy up all the bard services before ppl realize how powerful it is?

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I got my own bard slowly working through ALL my characters' Luck items but it will take years.....

past osprey
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I mean, tattoos are insanely straight forward and simplistic and are not especially popular. Grit, though, lol. Hard sell to convince someone that you just improved their gear by adding 2 services to it

dusty matrix
rapid fox
past osprey
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People want number to go up. Tattoo at least achieves that. Grit doesn't. You pay someone to enchant, ensorcell, sanct your gear, you get a tangible result out of it

dusty matrix
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Tattoos definitely aren't the top, but they're not the bottom either. It's crazy to me that they command exactly the same price as ranger resistance (2m per week at the top end) even though they've been out for several years longer and require like 15m less exp for 100% success on the highest tier.

That might come down to offense vs. defense, though, which would also go a long way to explain why Ensorcell is still holding up. I struggle to understand why since the gear difficulty is super prohibitive past T1, but hey, as long as people keep paying me 3m per week for it, I'll keep offering.

rapid fox
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Reminds me, I need to T1 some of my stuff 😛

dusty matrix
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But yeah, circling back on topic, 1620 has two offense-improving aspects in T2 and T3+T4, so I expect that it'll automatically be good in the eyes of the masses.

Edit: And 1135 also has two offense-improving aspects in T5 and, although it's a bit more roundabout, T1+T2+T3 (the latter grouping basically acting as the same general concept).

rapid fox
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these two new ones are both FUN and will likely be priced as so 😛

stable merlin
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I have a decent paladin but I fear might need to level up an empath or pay crazy prices for the empath service (but I got burned by hastily leveling a new rogue so....)

rapid fox
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well, only one service left to really focus on after these

dusty matrix
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This character was created on Fri Oct 15 01:59:41 ET 2021.
Heh, this is when I made my toddler paladin since A) I wanted something else to do while my other characters were digging up the beach on Caligos' final year and B) Viduus was talking so much about the paladin service around that time that I assumed it would surely be coming in the near future.

Whoopsie! ...but it worked out since now she'll be able to handle T4s or T5s whenever the service does happen. 🎉

stable merlin
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Paladin service before next DR? 🙏

deft geyser
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I’d love the bard service, but meh on requiring recharging, so I’m good.

viscid relic
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I've had my lucky trousers forever and they are still 189 / 200 charges. Granted it's Tier 5 (atm, soon to be Tier 6) so if I were to guess, maybe it was used 30 times over the few months? Remember, when you upgrade to the next tier, it recharges automatically and, from what I understand, I think any bard can recharge. it's not that high of a maintenance, honestly.

tacit beacon
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Funny enough, I found that I burned far fewer luck charges running arena (when I’m literally constantly killing stuff) than I have doing regular HW hunting. This tells me that the luck charges are probably in some way tied to defensive actions in addition to offensive actions - nothing attacks me in the arena before it dies

Recharging is sort of a pain, but it’s also going to help support the service values for monks, bards, pally’s and empaths. So I’m not entirely against it as long as the service is strong

rapid fox
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Rangers be like PandaCryAlice

dusty matrix
merry pine
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Anyone else disappointed that the flares are SMR or just me?

dusty matrix
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I don't read the T2 as being SMR, but just SMR to determine if they hit at all or not. So like dispel flares against things with no spells.

(And the T3 definitely isn't SMR as it reads now!)

merry pine
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T5 flares as well

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I've got SMR flares on my animal armor and they do nothing against over-leveled critters.

dusty matrix
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Oh! Right, the defensive flares. Yeah, I could see that being more of an issue since the creature's much less likely to be injured if you're in the middle of getting attacked, as I was just saying yesterday with Animalistic Spirit Armor revenge flares being vastly worse than Animalistic Spirit weapon revenge flares.

(I swear I was typing this even before you brought up the armor, heh. But yeah, since the creature can't be that disabled if it's hitting you, you'd generally be getting SMR bonus from the creature's injuries at most. Maybe occasional exceptions like having a creature rooted, where it can't use maneuvers, but could still be normal swinging at you.)

merry pine
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Ya, I was excited about animalistic spirit weapon revenge flares until I learned they are specifically excluded for shielded brawlers.

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The SMR component on the animal armor flares makes it pretty useless for my purposes. How do SMR flares stack up against the mobs in the harder ascension areas?

mossy snow
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~70 margin for me in moonsedge on average. which yeah would be less in the pits

merry pine
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T3 and T4 look good and are enough to justify the item as a fun toy. The crit reduction is nice, but the SMR component on the flares means those flares are of no value to me. I'd rather a more useful cooldown on the T6 without impotent god flares, 15 minutes or half an hour for a panic button is more useful to me than 1xDay I won't use because it's overly limited.

median ferry
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Can we circle back to improving 1613 before we make it obsolete with the introduction of T1 ability for battle standards?

merry pine
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Being able to convert the item to a different deity doesn't make any sense to me. I get the desire for justifying this for a player who will throw a tantrum because their flares don't match what they want for some new hunting ground, but for an in game item that is turned into a holy relic, being able to change the essence of the item is ridiculous.

autumn bison
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Counterpoint, expecting that in our very small playerbase with relatively few paladins - and likely even fewer for some of the more obscure deities (lots of players choose deities based on mechanics) it is similarly ridiculous to restrict players form being able to gain access to the service because of those paladin player choices. I’d be very surprised if there wasn’t a preponderance of paladins converted to a lightning flaring deity just because it’s a tiny bit better of a crit

stable merlin
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Hey man, some flares are better than others.... just like some GODs are better than others, almighty luukos PUNCTUREs your soul. It's just the nature of things. Pick the winning side!

autumn bison
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It seems somewhat reasonable to perhaps restrict it by pantheon, such that there’s some meaningful reason to seek out a particular paladin - but even then that just “forces” paladins to convert for the market rather than for RP. I prefer just granting agency to the customer.

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Or, go the 330 route and just pick a fixed crit type for everyone - but I prefer the deity specific option myself

merry pine
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Ya, having to take some time and invest in finding a paladin to craft a holy relic (with its own slot). Gods forbid.

autumn bison
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What if there isn’t a single paladin converted to the deity you want? Or, the one that is has a 10 year backlog because everyone wants it?

merry pine
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Such is life (or buy it from HESS). I would require the character's deity to match in order to use the relic as well. I just think that if you're going to have this special holy item maybe it should be more meaningful than punching in a code in a vending machine.

autumn bison
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Yeah I don’t think GS is big enough to throw practicality out the window for the sake of that. Especially in the context of this being pushed as a mechanism to close the gap in player services. I would expect anyone who is worried about the ramifications of the option could opt not to participate in flare changing, if it’s that important to them

mossy snow
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I'm just sad it isn't bound to the convert of the user because i just wanted to be here for that discord drama.

merry pine
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I think these restrictions are practical enough for GS. Maybe not Plat, but I'm sure they can huddle up and figure something out.

viscid relic
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I don't see the issue with you just needing to go to a shrine to change the flare to match your deity. What's another 5 mins to get to your deity shrine of choice and do change it?

Just to play advocate, not being able to change it means certain deities can (and probably will) charge more for the banner. Or what if the deity flare you are after is so rare that you need to talk to a person that you don't get along with? Then they say No. Wouldn't it be nice to just be able to go to another paladin to get the service?

If you want to RP it out for yourself to find a paladin of SoSo only and get the banner where it was Luukos/Ronan/Whoever from the very start, then that's your choice. But don't be suggesting to force it on others when it's illogical to put such a restraint on an already low played class. In the end, it's a banner service / business transaction and you're not doing a commune etc where it actually matters. Be happy for the ability to change the banner cooldown to change to another deity flare type.

merry pine
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I'll suggest as I like, but thanks for your input xD

thorny ice
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The +20 circumstance should be for matching deities between paladin and purchaser

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(Not serious)

dusty matrix
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Personally, I'm perfectly content with putting "why can we change the flares of a holy item?" in the Questions That Don't Need Answers box right next to "why does Luukos help clerics sanctify wepons to destroy the undead?"

thorny ice
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CANONICALLY POLYTHEISTIC

mossy snow
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for the SMR flares i don't really have a problem with it, like harder stuff is harder and that's fine to me. We also don't really know what the devs are planning with it i.e. will it even be comparable to the other armor / shield type stuff we've seen at dr in terms of success rate.

But if they were looking for a way to boost it you could tie it to tier like maybe a bonus to SMR per tier of unlock, similar to dispel flares at levels 4/5. Maybe tiers 4/5/6 give +10 to the SMR each or something like that. Just more incentive to unlock all the way.

potent grotto
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Oh im just catching up. Smr flares are a hard no go for me. I have dispel 3 flares on armor and i regret it daily as a hinterwilds hunter

viscid relic
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guessing dispel flares dont work well in HW, but they seem to be working great in Moonsedge for what it's worth Ptolemy.

autumn bison
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I'm not sure what the benchmark is, but I find dispel flares perfectly cromulent in HW

kindred grail
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dispel flares work well in HW, besides the apparent bug that gives certain creatures more ds for a single swing, but that seems fairly much like a bug and not related to dispel flares being effective

rapid fox
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my fav is reim for dis flares, really just sucks the spells right off those ghostly bois

potent grotto
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I find them pretty lackluster vs disir, angars and disciples. Im only at dispel 3 though. I feel like they dont fire that often

stable merlin
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I find they work reasonably well, because usually they get a juicy SMRv bonus from other status affects but yes in a vacuum 1v1 disir on the first hit being normal dispel, the results might be 50/50.... but thats a small portion of occurances for me atleast.

sick rivet
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I feel like dispel 3, the one billed as the max they will ever release, should have been enough for top end content. But sadly, it was not the top end ever to be released

autumn bison
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I don’t have any higher than dispel 3, but I almost always have a huge smr boost from some source or a other by the time flares roll out. Carns cry, prone, 611 etc. also stripping 1706 off disir is top notch

potent grotto
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Yeah, I didn't want to turn this thread into a dispel debate...but if I'm paying more than other flares, alot more than other flares (90k bs vs 15k bs for something like lightning), I'd expect much better results. Especialy when spell cleave costs $0 and works on every critter with a swing from defensive. Its just not worth anywhere near close to 90m silver, or 90 months of median earnings to me.

stable merlin
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Like Kaetel said, dispel is doable in ascension mainly because it benefits from other smrv bonuses but yeah the lvl vs lvl thing is a pain. That being said I bought mine before all the newer ascension zones and they absolutely crush OTF and other lvl 100 places.

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No one even knew about dispel being lvl mechanic until HW can out.... it was nasty surprise.

rapid fox
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Kicks butt vs the regular Reim mobs

sick rivet
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Dispel is amazing everywhere else. No argument there

median ferry
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Could it be related to armor use because it’s an smr attack originating from armor?

viscid relic
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maybe if it's SMR based then one of the other benefits of the paladin using their banner can be they get boost to that specific smr attack?

sand wigeon
viscid relic
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shhhhhhh

median ferry
mystic hull
viscid relic
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am kind of curious what skills / bonuses etc are needed for when it comes out (part of the reason i dropped OHE and TWC atm to 2x in spells and 1x in lore), and looking forward to testing it on the test realm when it's ready ❤️

flat hedge
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Doesn't test realm have instant migration?

hushed ivy
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Its on test.

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It seems what you need are level, MIU, SMC, Paladin spell ranks, Blessings Lore, Wisdom bonus, and Inf bonus. There's also a +20 for using a shrine of your pantheon.