Class Defensive Suite Discussion

[covert saffron]

Let's talk about class defenses and compare their designs across classes!

I reduced the slow mode

so I do think this is an interesting discussion because class defenses are really variable and one of the more interesting parts of gemstone design

[steady skiff]

We are the only two people here. 🙂 I mean, I could just DM you my thoughts.

I think that conversation bifurcation results in decreased engagement on core topics. We’ve already lost big name voices in this discord community over the last few months. Too much individualization of discourse just makes it less accessible.

[covert saffron]

I think I have basically the opposite view -- I often hear from people saying that the amount of conversation in a particular thread or channel, and the likelihood that most of it will not be relevant to them, means that they avoid the thread/channel entirely and mark read

[steady skiff]

Fair point.

[covert saffron]

I obviously do not have a problem with information bandwidth overload except in that I desire it unhealthily but a lot of people see it very differently in my experience

[steady skiff]

Both things can be true at once, though. Careful balancing act.

[covert saffron]

true!

okay so my capped character is a cleric, so I will talk a little about the cleric defensive system which is basically 319, DoTs, and 350 and that's kind of it haha

[steady skiff]

Here’s my one last comment on this thread

[covert saffron]

I have heard a couple of people say recently that 319 is a bonkers unreasonable skill but I think it kind of has the "one key ability" thing going on in that clerics have more or less no defensive setup without 319

[steady skiff]

Making it a separate thread takes it out of the realm of disabler review. These changes will not ever happen, except in a profession based review. They aren’t going to do a group defensive suite review until 2050. My hope is to have the disabler review actually help with being disabled.

[covert saffron]

yes

I think you are accurately stating a thesis that was not clearly stated in the other thread

which is "we have to have the discussion in this thread because the GMs will otherwise not read it and the only way to get the changes I want is to post in whatever thread the GMs seem to be reading"

[steady skiff]

I already talk with rangers about the rough edges of being a ranger in #rangers

[covert saffron]

I think a lot of people follow that strategy but I think it is fairly bad for the discord

for example I don't think we should be talking about loot cap in the spell disabler review thread but I'm pretty sure we did have a discussion about it because people would like to follow that strategy

[steady skiff]

I mean, I guess my preferred approach would be to have one thread #gsiv, and make every person read every comment. .5 /s

[covert saffron]

my goal is not to test your ability to make an argument that two unconnected things are connected, I definitely believe many people in this discord are very good at that

[tiny pecan]

So I do actually really like that classes have some wide-ranging defensive tools, I think there are obvious holes for some of the classes whom haven't had reviews yet vs those whom have though.

[steady skiff]

Sorry, I have residual trauma from feeling like threading was used to stifle negative feedback. Which is not happening now, but that was my experience, which has formed my opinion on it. But moving on now.

[covert saffron]

I understand that haha

[woeful hollow]

I think the Spell Disabler and Hive threads are two recent examples where ongoing dialogue with staff went really well and resulted in changes

[tiny pecan]

like sorcerers actually have pretty incredible defensive tools, but their best is their animates, which is locked behind either an extremely limited and expensive item, or some of the most annoying upkeep of anything in the game

[covert saffron]

if I wanted to stifle your negative feedback I would just DM you and say "listen shut up"

[woeful hollow]

It's true Tikba does that to me daily

[covert saffron]

listen

[steady skiff]

You have, and I listen to you. And that’s what friends do, tell you to be better.

[woeful hollow]

I sorta disagree around animates being gated. The animate wands are AWESOME items, and I do have one, but I didn't have one when I began to use an animate on my sorcerer. You don't have to make an artisinal handcrafted level 115 animate that takes 40 minutes before you hunt. I just make sure my first kill on a desired meatpuppet is with 717 or 711 (no wounds, lazy), then animate it, tell to follow, tell to attack. When I'm done hunting, explode it, loot, go home. Repeat. Saves my bacon a LOT and I think 730 is a really underutilized spell.

[covert saffron]

I agree with this honestly and I didn't try to immediately shut down the discussion of responses to 1210, but we got a dev response to the question and I genuinely think after we got that the conversation broadened in a way that made it appropriate to bifurcate

[woeful hollow]

I 100% expected the absurd 14 round 1210 stuns to be addressed in the review so I'm with Leff on that one. What we need is a look at stuns holistically if the goal is to limit "being disabled" to 30 seconds max at a clip

[covert saffron]

(I think the real problem is just that 1210 is designed to make players post on discord)

animates as the primary defensive tool is interesting to me actually, it shows the power of ongoing damage that doesn't turn off when you are incapacitated

[tiny pecan]

for non ascension grounds that works alright, but you still lose out on quite a bit in the just animate a thing and go, granted our review would of solved all this, along with giving 740 a daily escape for the "well I've screwed" moments

[woeful hollow]

Re: sorcerers, between 703, 709, and animate, I don't often have defensive concerns BUT when something gets past all of that I am absolutely going to die because they are very squishy beings, lol

[covert saffron]

this is why I listed DoTs as a cleric defensive tool -- a big advantage for clerics is just that our strongest abilities are ongoing so they can provide air support for you even after you've been stunned

[woeful hollow]

Yeah my sorc's at about 14.5m so the only time he's spent in Ascension zones was a punt around Moonsedge (nothing there can be animated, which honestly means my sorc just won't ever hunt there, which is disappointing) and the Boreal Forest (I got murdered by a wendigo while I was in guarded stance and left)

[tiny pecan]

yeah the gigas villages without undead are actually easier for sorcs than the forest, forest is annoying and mean for us.

anyways, just saying I do actually like the design of sorcerers in the "you better kill me or I'm gonna kill you even if I've CC'd" type defenses

[queen stag]

i kinda hate that sorcerers are getting (rofl, in 2028) the 740 escape btw. i think animate / cloak of shadows / pestilence type interactions are way more interesting. or even 740 used slightly differently (teleport all the mobs away, lolololol). it's kinda whatever, it's at least different than other stun breaks. but i think the "i'm not stuck in here with you, you're stuck in here with me" was a far more interesting and thematic way to solve the "gonna die soon" issue

[covert saffron]

I am surprised that neither of you mentioned 712 which I always thought was an important sorc tool, what do you guys put in 712 and why is it not useful?

[tiny pecan]

so if I had it designed, the 740 "escape" would actually be summoning a thing in with it, that "taunts" the enemies for 30 seconds or so

712 doesn't work on SMR attacks, so it's basically useless as a defensive tool, if I'm getting hit by AS/DS attacks I'm dead

[covert saffron]

oh, I see, you have to actually get HIT by AS

[tiny pecan]

yep

[atomic latch]

This is how I kill critters with 712. Doesn't work on SMR and that's all I can hit them with anyway. Cuts (and kills) both ways.

[tiny pecan]

if it was "while stunned" it proced against AS/DS or rather had a chance, that'd work great

[queen stag]

716 though is anything even looks at you funny though which is always nice.

i think a X a day make your demon/animate/cloak/pestilence (some combination there of) go berserk is way cooler. i mean...i agree 712 doesn't work 100% of the time but it definitely saves my life A LOT on my sorc. nothing's perfect. but triggering an enrage on the minions, cloak starts firing on anything even misses with amped cs, trigger an animate explosion with an SMR bonus, pestilence dispels from you but infects evyerthing in the room with a disabling sickness

[tiny pecan]

but yeah you can't update it to include SMR unless you split creature/player versions

I do think we should be able to explode animates while CC'd

[queen stag]

there's just way, way more fun and thematically appropriate avenues. especially for sorcs, sorcs really have a lot of untapped flavor potential.

also, 712 in general not working on SMR feels like a bug to me more than anything. RIP rogues/warriors

[tiny pecan]

that would be another very interesting tool, that we could use proactively in a bad situation

[atomic latch]

If 712 worked on SMR I would have no counterplay beyond equipping veil iron and ignoring it that way. I could do that, but I think it's boring and tedious

[tiny pecan]

I mean there's several things out there that have a creature version vs player version, 917 is one of them, you could do the same

[covert saffron]

I don’t think I would call it a bug so much as a design accident that then became paradigmatic but I agree it would be very difficult to change it now

[queen stag]

i absolutely agree, but from a logical and sorc standpoint it also doesn't really make sense. i'd probably look at something like sthieve/cleave auto targets 712 if its up also

[queen stag]

logic not sytntax 😄 but yeah, that's phrased more betterer.

[woeful hollow]

712 is great, I had 130 in it but got sick of the stuns/occasional deaths so changed to 719. It sends a whole lot of triton brawlers straight to hell since it works on UCS and they like to stun and punch me if I don't 720 them first

[tiny pecan]

yeah, again it was designed in an era of very very little SMR, it's just that has drastically changed since then

ahh yes, spells that kill you while trying to "help" I'm not much of a fan of that either with 712

[atomic latch]

I would love this compromise personally

[queen stag]

712 is a boss spell to sthieve anyways. it's a win win.

[tiny pecan]

that would certainly be a change I'd like to see removed, like have it fry your nerves or something, but killing you randomly sucks

[trim bronze]

Monks losing the evade benefits from ye olde Light Armor Proficiency has put their top end DS significantly behind warriors and rogues in robes, which is bizarre and unfortunate.

Other than that, perfectly content with every profession's defensive suite. (I will, however, note that I count the "how good is a profession at nuking an entire room?" question within the defensive suite. This is what gets bards and paladins off the hook; their actual defensive stats are terrible, but eh. 1040/beseech and 1030/ultra high AS make up for a lot of problems.)

[atomic latch]

This message funded and sponsored by the Grimswarm Camp Sorcerers' Union

[woeful hollow]

I really don't like that monk DS is now third amongst robe-wearing squares, lol. That said, my DS isn't a problem too often, even as KS with like 465 offensive DS.

[neat plume]

Same, except mine are "917 lightning doesn't make sense dumbo".

On topic, I still think it's valuable to reiterate my point in the other thread - "defensive suite" isn't relegated to managing stuns and I agree with many others that I don't want to paint all classes the same with different flavors of stunbreak

[queen stag]

it's only third if they're also spell tanked / lol exp and have max spells as well though isn't it? otherwise the (incredibly more attainable 1200s) keep monks at least very close doesn't it? i forget the exact numbers now

and i have a very easy fix to the problems that arise from rogues/warriors getting too much exp and training 75/20+ spells

[neat plume]

I also agree with Tikba that 640 + 630 + 605 does a lot of work for rangers.

[trim bronze]

Even with no spells on a warrior or rogue, Evade Mastery and 3x Dodging in robes is 90 DS in offensive IIRC, which is 15 more than the total gain of 48 Minor Mental + 40 Minor Spiritual.

[covert saffron]

I didn't get to finish my thought about 319, I would pretty much summarize its effect as "you always go first*" which is obviously a super powerful ability in gemstone and combined with clerics having great disablers and 335 as the best** room destroying spell means that I think clerics can get away with a lot. the first asterisk there is for "against enemies you can consistently ward" which does matter because 319's design means if you DON'T win with your first move, or your enemy is grizzled or something and hard to ward, or you're being attacked by a trap haha, clerics are actually very fragile

luckily clerics also have 350 which I would unironically class as part of the cleric defensive suite because it removes the vast majority of the cost of just dying haha

[queen stag]

incant 1216
<watches leafiara tilt off the earth>

[covert saffron]

the second footnote is that 335 is the best room destroying spell people actually cast

[trim bronze]

Why would I want 15 DS (over warriors/rogues) more than 20%+ stamina reduction?

[neat plume]

In fact, I would say that my companion OHKOing a baddie when I'm stunned is one of my favorite ways to resolve a dangerous situation. High fives to companion and feel good moments, in addition to not dying.

[queen stag]

you wouldn't, i wouldn't. i was kidding 😄

[trim bronze]

😛

[queen stag]

you could 102 though and deal with the mm uaf penalty. but 15 less is still "way more ds than i ever need" so you don't do that either!

[atomic latch]

Just like in real life, the power of friendship is meta

[trim bronze]

Actually, in all seriousness, I do occasionally use 102 on a monk since UAF really isn't that relevant. 🤔

[queen stag]

i used to on bandits but i solved that by just not doing bandits

[covert saffron]

monks really have the most boring but effective defensive suite to match their most boring but effective offensive suite

[queen stag]

i do think it's relevant though too on tp costs. i don't disagree, it does feel like monks should be the dodgiest of bois (or at least them /rogues, certainly not warriors) but it's considerably cheaper for the monk to do it. even for the other squares 3x dodge is no joke.

and if i recall they did add that 10% evade chance into martial arts mastery for that reason when it wasn't in there intiially whent hey lost light armor mastery

[tiny pecan]

monk is so weird to me, they get so much for so many less TPs than warriors/rogues, but then they also just kinda stop having anythign to progress in so much sooner too

[queen stag]

ascension

[trim bronze]

Yeah, it's basically what Vaemyr said. Monks are higher floor, lower ceiling (on normal exp skills, at least).

[queen stag]

it's quite a high floor at least

[fresh steppe]

712 is only useful if a sorcerer is both stunned and hit by an AS attack. I can't speak to ascension level hunting, but from level 35ish to 9m exp my sorcerer has met these conditions maybe a couple dozen times. His DS is high enough self-spelled that most things simply cannot hit him with AS attacks unless he's stunned. While useful when it triggers, it's simply not needed unless I'm already in trouble... and if I'm in a swarm (when I'm most likely to be stunned) it won't matter if it disables/kills the first two critters to swing at me while stunned, the third one will kill me anyway. Add that it doesn't trigger at all when webbed, staggered, or rooted and it's really more of an after-thought for me than anything else.... I'm far more worried about the SMR attacks that will inflict a range of status effects on me that 712 is no help with at all.

[ornate marten]

They should change 914 sandstorm to be a SMRv defensive spell for wizards, the catch is you need to constantly feed it mana to keep up the sandstorm but the wiz would get some SMRv defense from it. I want to be a sand devil...

[lyric sable]

They nerfed our SMR defense from 430/507 pretty recently. More SMR defense is always nice but seems unlikely!

[mossy pond]

Not having a cleric, I'm not sure I understand 319... basically, if something attacks you with an SMR attack, you get a hidden warding check to completely obviate the attack?

[covert saffron]

the first time each individual enemy attacks you in any way (AS, SMR, warding, whatever), you get a hidden warding roll against them. if your roll succeeds, their attack is neutralized

[mossy pond]

So, like, Rift Crawler burrows, bandit ambushes...

[covert saffron]

obviously this is very powerful and makes certain specific problems (rogue/stalker ambushes, ravager/roa'ter/crawler burrows) much less of a problem

yeah

in general you are likely to always be able to basically act first

[mossy pond]

Uh yeah that sounds pretty nice

19 mana per event blocked?

[covert saffron]

no

it is a buff you put on yourself

[fresh steppe]

For me, 319 is hugely useful for ensuring things don't get in an attack between entering a room and hitting enter on my attack

[covert saffron]

doesn't cost anything per individual attack prevented

if it did clerics would always be out of mana haha

this also makes cleric CS a huge defensive tool which is nice in terms of aligning your priorities

319 also lets you INFUSE SPIRIT to refresh the 319 against every enemy in the room, which you can do while disabled but costs 2 spirit

[queen stag]

it lets you essentially get the first shot on everything. which in gemstone combat is incredibly strong. it's dependent on your CS since it's a hidden CS check so it can be bad times if you're overhutning/pushing the boundaries you kill slower + are less safe.

the lore benefit lets it possibly work on more than 1 attack, and the infuse spirit ability people bring up costs 1 spirit and resets all your 319 countiers so it can work again on any target

[covert saffron]

technically the base cost is 1 spirit but I don't think I have ever actually used infuse spirit when it would cost 1 spirit haha

if I am not stunned I would rather cast a spell

[mossy pond]

Now I see how Tikba can hunt the Hive

[queen stag]

i forget. but it's funny when you slam infuse spirit multiple times. get down to like 2 spirit and you're like "welp...here we go, i'm gonna make it out of this or i'm sitting here with like -500 SMR defense now"

[covert saffron]

yes, 319 is the only way I can survive the stalkers, although even then my warding chance is not amazing against them

[queen stag]

bonus points if you are not in voln or gos and have to nervously glance at your buff window

[covert saffron]

so sometimes I just get immediately murdered anyway

or they decide to use their tail and ambush me for 9 damage

insects are dumb

319 is super super strong but of course the disadvantage is that once it is gone I just have nothing I can do except infuse spirit or beseech 350

[queen stag]

also it doesn't matter if the attack would hit you btw. so if you ever fight a creature that has 319 (shapers in sos) you can do anything to them, it doesn't have to have a chance to hit them. you can do like quickstrike 1 jab while in defensive... it'll pop 319. this is say contrasted to wizard 540 which is basically "enough defense nothing should ever hit you" when it activates but it's not guaranteed to ever do so (even if the chance is REALLY high at max emc)

[covert saffron]

so if I eat a 4 round stun for example I'm basically infusing down to 1 spirit and even then I'm probably going to die

[covert saffron]

this is an important contrast to barkskin which only prevents attacks that would actually have hit you

319 doesn't care whether the attack was actually dangerous to you, barkskin does

[humble dock]

This thread feels like a trap, I don't trust it, flee

[ornate marten]

Who needs guaranteed defense when you can play 540 wizard-roulette. 30% of the time it works every time.

[mossy pond]

I would trade barkskin for 319 in a hot second, just sayin'

[covert saffron]

sure haha

[mossy pond]

"Oh boy, time to go hunt the Hive because I've got Barkskin."

[covert saffron]

I think, as kaetel noted, if you are a ranger you have a wide variety of tools, barkskin is just one part

clerics don't get 608!

[mossy pond]

640 is pretty great. 630 is... better than it used to be.

It's the greatest RP spell in the game

[neat plume]

650 Serpent/mantis/burgee are all pretty underrated too

[covert saffron]

630 is either the best or second best pet in the game, really, although its specific defensive capacity is maybe not the best part of it

[mossy pond]

Eh, I just roll Porcupine

650 never quite lived up to its design, IMO

[neat plume]

You are hard to please, it would seem 😬

[mossy pond]

Well, I'm the one who designed it

[humble dock]

I thought that was WoW devs

[covert saffron]

I genuinely find it confusing that rangers don't value barkskin commune more, I think people seem to vastly underrate the value of "the next thing that would hurt you doesn't"

[mossy pond]

You can't use it in RT, sadly. Too often when I get hit with something bad it induces RT

[neat plume]

I don’t think you can use any of the emergency tools in RT can you?

[mossy pond]

Also, I believe Commune Barkskin and regular Barkskin use the same cooldown, so you're basically disincentivized from using the regular version

[covert saffron]

you can infuse spirit in RT

[mossy pond]

Sigil of Escape can be used in RT

[humble dock]

Shadowdeath bracers can teleport you out while in RT, super handy in HW

[neat plume]

I stand corrected

[tiny pecan]

730 is definitely the best pets in the game, or the worst depending on what is animated haha. Oh the days before the aoe changes and you animated a triton who then imploded you.

[humble dock]

Sigil of escape is also the most trash escape tool in the game though to be fair, the number of times I've needed to escape and survived after using it is... well, it's not good odds

[mossy pond]

Yeah it's a roll of the dice

Fun fact -- If you use Sigil of Escape and then immediately use Regeneration, you die instantly and your corpse is fully healed (you are still dead).

[humble dock]

chrism censer fixes death real quick!

[tiny pecan]

Sigil of escape is better if you have stun maneuvers

[mossy pond]

For all those squares still in GoS

[tiny pecan]

Kiyna is!

[humble dock]

True, but the last time I used it, it "escaped" me into the room with the Wyrm and my face got ate

[covert saffron]

I have survived a fair number of times with sigil escape but I feel like other people get emergency buttons that aren't just "haha maybe you die anyway, who knows"

it's great in the rift though!

[mossy pond]

I feel like in the Hive it's maybe worse than just riding out the stun

[covert saffron]

the secret is that the top level with roa'ters and defenders is still the hive

[mossy pond]

Like, your chances of survival measurably decrease if you use Sigil of Escape there

[covert saffron]

so you have about a 25% chance of landing there in which case you live

I would say otherwise your chance of survival remains at basically 0%, so it doesn't really matter

[tiny pecan]

I mean we can't all just be op volners with transcendence

[covert saffron]

I have never taken a stun longer than 2 rounds in the hive and lived haha

[humble dock]

technically we all could be OP volners with transcendence

The only reason all my characters aren't is 1: too lazy to re-do all the steps, with the singular exception being my big KS warrior who's an archer and needs sigil of determination to function

[tiny pecan]

That's like saying we all could technically just be warriors

[humble dock]

Think of how well balanced warriors would be if the GM's didn't have to work on any other class though

[tiny pecan]

True that

We'd definitely have more ascension haha

[humble dock]

There's almost more classes than there are development GM's these days

[covert saffron]

Acidic ooze erupts from a corpulent kresh ravager's flesh like pus out of a rupturing boil, dousing you with corrosive goop!
   ... 25 points of damage!
   Strike dissolves the tendons in the ankle, effectively severing foot!
   You are knocked to the ground!
   You are stunned for 5 rounds!```

okay I have to take it back because I did actually live through this just now

because 335 was already running haha

[covert saffron]

also I just want to say

hurtful of you to be like "there's no way tikba could just be good at this"

[mossy pond]

That was hurtful I'm sorry : (

Especially after all the times Tikba has rescued Alosaka from somewhere

[humble dock]

if clerics are bad they just type BESEECH and it's fine again anyways

[covert saffron]

That is also true

[humble dock]

When I came back to the game (Miracle didn't exist when I quit last) I sat there on my level 68 cleric, dead in a hunting ground, asking for a rescue

Ended up getting rescued and then the cleric that ressed me earlier saw me raising a corpse a couple hours later, asked me why I didn't just miracle

[mossy pond]

Rezzing people got so complicated at some point. When I was a kid clerics just cast (one of three) rez spells and poof, the corpse was alive again

[covert saffron]

rezzing still works exactly the same as that except you need to give the dead body mountain dew first

[mossy pond]

And they got rid of the other two rez spells! Were they not good enough?

[humble dock]

I will say a big downside to having a chrism censer is that when I use it on corpses they ask me to chrism them, and I'm like... I did, and they're like... no you didn't

[covert saffron]

Listen I understand you are sad that empath base only has four spells in it but that is not good game design

Someday your time will come too don’t worry

[humble dock]

Clerics still have 2/3 different versions of raise dead, it just gets better as they level up now

[warm frigate]

Both standard Barkskin and the COMMUNE variant have their own independent cooldowns thankfully!

[trim bronze]

Hmm, never knew about this.

looks it up

Additionally, at 15 Blessings lore ranks, the Ranger may COMMUNE with nature to cast the spell while incapacitated (but not while in roundtime) once per hour.
...oh, I see. It's probably not that I never knew about it, but that I immediately dismissed it from my knowledge with a cooldown like that.

Now to immediately dismiss it from my knowledge again!

[covert saffron]

Stop getting stunned more than once an hour!

[trim bronze]

Stun is for professions without 611, 640, 619, 612, 610, 615, and 608!

[neat plume]

Slackers

[covert saffron]

That’s true I didn’t include 610 as part of the ranger suite of defensive tools

Rangers have so much stuff they can just dump out and have lying around

Including a dog, if necessary

[steady skiff]

605 commune is fine. I use it whenever the cooldown isn’t in effect. But, I would say, I still die most of the time I have a 8 round stun, even when I use it.

I don’t care for 605. It’s probably my vote for most overrated ranger spell.

[steady skiff]

I don’t think this is true? If you’ve used barkskin and are on cooldown, I don’t think you can use commune.

[steady skiff]

I have this ability on my essence belt too… and also never use it, because in practice, it’s not great. It is, however, somewhat better when SLS ranks let it persist beyond one hit. It also has some wonky interactions where it triggers when it probably shouldn’t, and doesn’t when it probably should.

[trim bronze]

I don't care for it either, which is why it didn't even make my list. 😄

[covert saffron]

Man, as somebody whose entire defensive strategy hinges on a worse version of that ability I think I really disagree!

[steady skiff]

There are many rangers who share your opinion and also disagree.

[neat plume]

605 shines in some situations, especially so when you can take advantage of the group aspect of it. Having my whole crew negate some aoe SMR is glorious.

[humble dock]

if only it could have saved you from Glaves axe

[neat plume]

See that’s the thing. Kaetel was on FWI when that incident went down! Also I was in town so like..probably wouldn’t have had it up. But maybe! 🤣

I’ll have to donate to the EO team. Saved by ;eloot sell

[humble dock]

As a warrior, another warrior, and a third warrior - none of whom are in trenchcoats, I'll just say "the best defense is a really good offense" and "if that isn't working try a shield"

[mossy pond]

Barkskin has saved me from taking hits. I'm not sure Barkskin Commune has ever saved my life

It's usually some combination of "lol you can't cast that" or I do get the cast but it just stops one hit before the next one kills me...

In fact, someone check me if I'm wrong... I'm not sure you can commune Barkskin if you have wounds that prevent you from casting?

[humble dock]

to be fair the only really good escape is paladin beseech anyways

the rest of the good ones are all pay to win, voln armor, shadowdeath vambraces, ithzir armor, etc

[neat plume]

Writhing, milky tentacles burst forth from the tortured spatial anomaly, grasping blindly through the areas they glisten with vile humors.
The evanescent shield shrouding CLERIC fades briefly.
The layer of bark on CLERIC hardens and absorbs the attack!  The bark crackles as it crumbles to dust.
  SMR SvD: -167 + o100 roll: +167 == 0
  SMR SvD: +53 + o100 roll: +22 == +75
The layer of bark on SORCERER hardens and absorbs the attack!  The bark crackles, but maintains its form.
A small piece of bark breaks off and falls to the ice.
  SMR SvD: -33 + Bonus: +1 + o100 roll: +32 == 0
The layer of bark on WARRIOR hardens and absorbs the attack!  The bark crackles as it crumbles to dust.
  SMR SvD: -78 + o100 roll: +78 == 0
The layer of bark on PALADIN hardens and absorbs the attack!  The bark crackles, but maintains its form.
  SMR SvD: -56 + Bonus: +1 + o100 roll: +55 == 0
  SMR SvD: +50 + Bonus: +1 + o100 roll: +42 == +93```
605 > anomaly

[covert saffron]

I thought you were sunfist

You can’t be too hurt to cast!

Oh wait I think I misunderstood you

[steady skiff]

I’d be in dereliction of duty if I also didn’t mention here how terrible sigil of escape is.

[mossy pond]

My ranger is not Sunfist

[lyric sable]

Determination has limits

[humble dock]

rank 2, determination, rank 3... well, sunfist is not equal in power to the black knight

[mossy pond]

Honestly what saves my ranger's life 9 times out of 10 is redux and wearing good armor

[robust gorge]

Empath 1125 update awhile back helps a lot with breaking stuns. 1150 regen can save your butt a lot of times too.

But ill second what Alosaka said about good armor.

[mossy pond]

Empaths and clerics can wear good armor! Spread the good news about chain mail!

[fresh steppe]

Absorb Magic can be used in RT

[neat plume]

That one I actually knew, but I hadn't considered that an emergency tool. Certainly could be!

[warm frigate]

Now I'm second guessing myself. Forgive me @mossy pond!! I'll go test it out.
You mentioned something counter to what you are saying here Leff based on a quick search: #rangers message

[mossy pond]

I thought they had the same cooldown, but I may be incorrect. I don't use it all that often

[steady skiff]

Maybe I corrected myself on discord, but then did not correct my brain. Sorry.

[warm frigate]

There's both cooldowns rolling. Special thanks to @paper willow for inflicting pain on Drazaa.

[austere island]

I use it....it's
....it exist....I have an oh crap macro that is symbol of trans and barkskin commune and then I just wait and see what happens....my sprite picks me up as well....of all that only the barkskin commune is a natural part of my class kit

The second part of that scenario is spamming symbol of return....the better society escape ability.

....it's all a very passive way to sit in stun though- my recommendation would be a universal cman that has a low chance of breaking incapacitated states, think 10% with a 3 second rt...but it stacks so your second attempt is 20% ect ect.....it wouldn't be amazing but it would give you something to do when in 30-60 second RT besides watch a red bar tick down.

15 seconds in you would at least have a 50/50 chance of breaking stun with such a system....and you are doing SOMETHING....which is better game design

[limber cypress]

I had completely not realised commune 605 existed THANK YOU

[covert saffron]

I used sigil escape today and ended up dying and in retrospect would have been in a much better situation just not hitting that button, just another data point about finding that ability design aggravating

[ornate marten]

I never understood why sigil of escape doesn't come with like an autohide and/or temporary invisibilitiy when you get moved 1-2 rooms away. I feel like that would be more than fair to escape into a brief hiding hole.... still an easy spot if a critter happens to wander in but atleast the hidden part doesn't draw every dam critter to the room like a stunned prone player in the open would.

[sacred forge]

It really is terrible. That said, I use it as an absolute last resort, and more often than not, I do survive

[humble dock]

Waiting for grimswarm armor to pop up in DR that makes sigil of escape functional

[queen stag]

i don't even mind sigil of escape being mostly crap and annoying when you use the emergency.

my main problem with it is it locks you out of the non-emergency version when the emergency is on CD.

"like no, i'll just die in this room. that way i can still escape back at the end of next hunt"

[covert saffron]

I doubt this will happen because sunfist isn't popular enough!

[humble dock]

https://tenor.com/view/arrested-development-dozens-of-us-david-cross-speech-gif-3545958

[atomic latch]

Not with that attitude!

sigil of recognition
gaze survey
sigh heavily

[austere island]

Yess....I accidentally hit it right as something stunned me and I was so mad...

[tiny pecan]

i mean even if it did, a 1000+ dollar item is not the best way to unlock a viable escape like it does for cursed armor and col

[humble dock]

I was definitely joking when I said that, but there's also a trend so...