#[Official] Spell Disabler Review

1 messages · Page 5 of 1

nova violet
#

because of this

    Minor Spiritual: 402
    Major Spiritual: 408
             Cleric: 488```
#

a spell in ranger base won't have that problem

tough flame
#

I mean, I always liked 217 even before, but you needed to have finished 3x spells before it made any sense whatsoever--and, even then, you needed to be in a swarmy area with semi creatures.

That's as opposed to pure creatures, who would ward it off--which is why 210 and its no pushdown at all don't hit anything you'd want it to hit. The only exception I can think of is invasion creatures that might be casters and yet spawn with no spells, which happens on very rare occasion.

nova violet
#

I am going to use 110 constantly in the sanctum

#

seems great

tough flame
#

Gonna be amazing for empaths!

nova violet
#

I don't have a good sense of how much roundtime it delivers yet because I'm hard to hit with my own smr spells haha

visual dune
limpid geode
#

yeah I'd like to get more info about the 110 RT outcomes...what's the max...what endroll needed, etc.?

And I agree with Leafi - I'm not sure why any spells are left with CS and no TD pushdown if they are intended to be useful in like-level scenarios.

nova violet
#

this is a trick to get me to kill myself while holding 40,000 silver huh

# 
[SMR result: 130 (Open d100: 73, Bonus: 1)]
   ... 15 points of damage!
   Sprained ankle!  You won't be running soon.
   You are stunned for 1 round!
You are knocked off your feet!
Roundtime: 10 sec.
Cast Roundtime 2 Seconds.
(Forcing stance down to guarded)```
acoustic bough
#

If only we could give creatures silvers

nova violet
#

I have 100 survival which may be relevant here

#

that is a very good amount of roundtime though I think

limpid geode
#

seems great unless creatures are casting it at you...then you probably are going to wonder why a 130 endroll gave you 10s RT (or more, considering your survival!)

nova violet
#

I reluctantly support large buffs to creatures

limpid geode
# 
[SMR result: 184 (Open d100: 55, Bonus: 24)]
   ... 30 points of damage!
   Leg jerked violently.  You are stunned.
   You are stunned for 6 rounds!
Roundtime: 10 sec.
Cast Roundtime 2 Seconds.```
I think it's probably capped at 10s
#

anyways this seems really awesome - more like something I would have expected in the major spiritual circle - so I'm very happy to see that.

I just expected to see all the minor/major CS spells either get 1) pushdown 2) SMR 3) auto success system...making them cheaper/faster when they can't reliably hit anyways doesn't really do much if we're looking to make them usable.

tough flame
#

Alternatively, they could make my war cleric dreams come true by moving 215 and/or 211 to a +1 AS per X spell ranks past spell level model and then I'd crank up Major Spiritual CS in the blink of an eye. 👀

(This wouldn't happen, heh. (...would still love to see it as an Ascension path one day.) But yeah, I was expecting some kind of buff to 210 after 217 got super pushed.)

random zealot
#

awesome, love this review

limpid geode
# 
Bands of spectral mist ripple and surge beneath a huge lightning elemental!
[SMR result: 124 (Open d100: 19)]
   ... 5 points of damage!```
Not that I expected it to do much but this result gave 0 or 1s RT (it attacked less than a second after I cast it). Not sure if the RT is tied to the critical or something?
I kind of expected that if it actually did something (other than saying immune) it would apply the RT.
visual dune
#

Soooo... turns out the RT calculations for Unbalance (110) were also a little funky. This has also been fixed. 🐛 splats the bug

#

For clarification purposes: when 110 succeeds, it applies the Staggered effect for a minimum of 3 seconds and a maximum of 10 seconds. This is the same calculation for both Players and Creatures.

echo aurora
#

What I like about 110 so far, is that I can cast it on a creature that is already proned out. So, I can sweep/610, then follow up with 110 for the second creature too...

visual dune
dusty rivet
#

did it just change? cause i was doing some testing and getting 3 on ultra low endrolls.

visual dune
#

Yep.

dusty rivet
#

i just finished healing! 😄 (╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻

visual dune
#

┬─┬ノ( º _ ºノ)

limpid geode
# 
[SMR result: 163 (Open d100: 59)]
   ... 20 points of damage!
   Strike to foot!  You hop around dizzily on other foot and fall.
   You are knocked to the ground!
   You are stunned for 3 rounds!
Roundtime: 17 sec.
Cast Roundtime 2 Seconds.```
dusty rivet
pearl creek
#

110 is now a better setup than 1615 (cast version, for kneel). Applying more RT, cast in 2s vs 3s, chains to a second target, 1/3 the mana, and prone vs kneeling 😆 better crit tables on 1615 I suppose

keen cape
#

I'm snickering to myself as I imagine some strange unbalance party happening, where everyone drinks the kool aid and falls over.

pearl creek
# 
   ... 10 points of damage!
   Pop!  Kneecap wrenched.
   You are knocked to the ground!
Roundtime: 10 sec.
Cast Roundtime 2 Seconds.```
Cheers!
limpid geode
#

this RT seems extremely strong...kinda makes me wonder why 711 RT is so low in comparison...especially after the lore benefit is maximized it still caps at only 7s of stagger

dusty rivet
#

ITT: people freaking out about 2 target ewave

pearl creek
#

for those of us without access to 410, this is much better than we had before 😛

keen cape
nova violet
#

I was just saying to ffng “is this spell too good” and he said “it’s single target ewave” and I was like “oh.”

“…wait a second”

dusty rivet
limpid geode
dusty rivet
#

711 was and continues to be fantastic. in 99.9% of encounters the nerf is it takes like, 1 extra cast now at worst. lol. it's hilarious to me that it was pretty common advice to single necro for it, then a nerf happened that doesn't even affect daily hunting and everyone rage quit 711. (i still think it should be capped at like 333 damage for the record)

dusky hatch
#

711's damage was unchanged for like 98% of targets...which ffng already said

dusty rivet
#

pain not being capped at 333 damage and warrior grit not costing 20k per so you can do a full 10 services if you're at 4 weeks continues to be two of my biggest gemstone pet peeves

limpid geode
#

I still think 711 is solid just saying it was nerfed again by converting it to stagger and now its RT pales in comparison to 110.

low mango
#

Two -- 110 and 118

dusky hatch
dusky hatch
low mango
#

I mean, 615 is still pretty deep in my deck of cards

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There's probably some point on a graph where the equation for creature danger and creature numbers intersect where I would bother casting 615, but I'm never doing that algebra in my head during a hunt

dusty rivet
dusky hatch
#

1615 already has an evoke tho

dusty rivet
#

it didn't get the round time or cost adjustment though i mean. cast is more a pure setup, evoke is the pew pew

dusky hatch
#

yeh.

dusty rivet
#

it still does pretty ok damage even with cast but, so does 519.

keen cape
#

Minor Spiritual circle is a far cry from a Ranger only spell. Most of the time I just see rangers disable stuff by putting an arrow in its eye.

low mango
#

Yes, but the new 110 is better than 615, imo

dusky hatch
#

615 persists and chases, so I wouldn't strictly compare them

low mango
#

I'm sure the GMs have metrics on how often the various spells are cast. Be curious to see how they stack up

echo aurora
#

When I’m in a really bad mood, I like to see how many 603 casts I can stack before a mob dies…

low mango
#

I like to let my cat have a mob, every once in a while

quasi bane
#

paladin infused 110 by 1625/Holy Weapon is still costing its full 10 mana, otherwise it seems to work well! doesn't work on already prone targets though but i think that's by design iirc

fierce saddle
hoary beacon
#

hm.. if things are immune to knockdown (like treekin), do they not get Stagger from 110?

was just testing it and it seems like they didn't

dire glade
#

Do spells that have been converted from CS to SMR still receive bonuses from their corresponding CS stats (Aur/Wis)?

fierce saddle
#

they do not

night panther
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110 seems extremely good now but I’m struggling to think who will begin using 201/210 that wasn’t already. Warding system on non-base circle spells… no thanks

limpid geode
#

Same here Ouendi

Bands of spectral mist ripple and surge beneath a huge lightning elemental!
[SMR result: 188 (Open d100: 53, Bonus: 32)]
   ... 15 points of damage!```
No RT here despite high endroll - it attacked me about 1 second after I cast this.
verbal portal
verbal portal
# night panther 110 seems extremely good now but I’m struggling to think who will begin using 20...

Which is a shame, because Silence is such a cool spell if it worked. I survived Tree Spirits in the 20s with Silence

An easy fix (I have no idea if it would be easy) would be to just let us use our primary CS for secondary circles, or allow training in the respective mana control gradually eliminate the delta between primary and secondary. Which, from an RP standpoint, what’s the point of mana control if not that.

fierce saddle
sleek inlet
#

It's level + spell ranks + spell aim + setup bonus (larger bonus for single target vs. AoE).

night panther
#

I’ll post a log when I can (phone posting now) but my concern about Slowed and haste mechanics is basically this, and I’d be surprised if this is how it’s meant to work, but:

1035/535 active
Hit by 1602, Slowed applied, RT goes up
Slowed effect expires
RT still up
STOP 1035/535 & re-cast
RT goes down

Slowed is nullifying the haste spells until they’re recast not just for the duration of the debuff.

low mango
#

Spell aim for empaths finally starting to pay off!

verbal portal
#

Is Spell Ranks in that formula total spell ranks, or ranks in the circle?

dusty rivet
#

#1191064189981163611 message

verbal portal
dusky hatch
# 
Bands of spectral mist ripple and surge beneath a savage fork-tongued wendigo!
[SMR result: 127 (Open d100: 64)]
   ... 10 points of damage!
   Side strike shoves the fork-tongued wendigo several feet sideways.
   It is knocked to the ground!

The spectral mist suddenly shifts to a savage fork-tongued wendigo!
Bands of spectral mist ripple and surge beneath a savage fork-tongued wendigo!
[SMR result: 144 (Open d100: 81)]
   ... 10 points of damage!
   Jarring blow to the fork-tongued wendigo's shield arm.
The wendigo is knocked to the ground!
Cast Roundtime 2 Seconds.```
This is my paladin with 20 MnS ranks
verbal portal
dusky hatch
#

Yeah but that's with like, the least optimal stats for it against a level 105

pearl creek
#

stats don't impact it 😛
#1191064189981163611 message

vital umbra
#

I think, by stats, Kaetel meant skills (low spell ranks, probably no spell aiming).

pearl creek
#

only poking fun at word choice. If we can't nitpick semantics what do we have left

empty mantle
#

Interference (212) & Mass Interference (217)
Each five ranks adds +1 sec to the duration. Do Major Spiritual ranks still have an effect on this?

sleek inlet
#

No, it uses the standard negative duration formula.

empty mantle
#

thank you

plain wedge
#

Did 1207 get the 410 treatment and become bad for Monks? Not that I ever use 1207, but seems like one of the spells which would need significant external boosting to be useful since monks rarely train past 35/40 in MnM.

dusty rivet
#

since it's single target i bet it's more than fine still. they get a larger bonus vs aoe

dusty rivet
#

to echo what nidal said about this being screwy. There's definitely very weird going on with haste/slow effect in general.

I just had this happen:
cast tonis (-3 RT)
verify it's working
have a capped wizard cast 504 on me, first of all...

  Warding failed!
Your movements slow to a crawl!
Roundtime: 18 sec.
Roundtime changed to 25 seconds.```
applied 18 seconds of roundtime, and also modded it's own roundtime so that went up to 25 at least. That seems wrong on both counts.

then testing it:
```>wait
Time drags on by...
Roundtime: 2 sec.
Roundtime changed to 9 seconds.```
i didn't think 504 was supposed to add 7+ seconds of roundtime to actions unless i missed that but that seems pretty high.

either way, once it was active i waited until slow wore off and...
```You are no longer moving as slowly as you were a moment ago.

>wait
Time drags on by...
Roundtime: 2 sec.
Roundtime changed to 9 seconds.```
not only did it not let tonis work again, *it continued to act as though i was slowed until tonis wore off*. It's like it changed tonis' haste "bonus" to the debuffed state. When tonis wore off, my RT went back to normal. i haven't tested with pious trial yet.
terse breach
#

It would be kind of funny if haste removed the roundtime on Wait. You are literally too hyper and fast to wait for anything.

brittle bane
#

my wizard's ewave is still better than his 912, because he does 101 wizard ranks, and has 50 water lore... would be nice to see air lore do some work for 912 success... (edit)

#

This guy gets it.. +100

keen cape
#

the vortex is pretty nice, iirc

brittle bane
#

yes but it does nothing for chance of success to begin with

#

I think the vortex is kinda meh.. 100 air ranks gives about a 20% chance of vortex, which "randomly" targets creatures for roundtime. It's also not super fast in doing this. I'd prefer increased chance of success on the SMR roll, or in other words, increased spell power 🙂

#

I'd argue that spell lores should work similarly to the way squares pick which cmans to train and increase their effectiveness.. Air lore would increase 912 success, earth would increase success with 909, 410 was made to use water (not sure why), 512 should use water, etc.... Off the top of my head, I can only think of 917 using lore to make it stronger, 914 uses earth for increased crit and air for speed.. (besides bolt DF's).. Not sure if 512 shatter is still a thing, if it got nerfed or what.. but these examples are not exactly increasing SMR rolls the way that increased cman ranks and guild mastery do...Like Dinaden said, we're kinda back at the same problem we had with CS spells.. We're still using spells ranks as the biggest factor for spell power. I was hoping this review would factor lores for all professions in determining their spell power or effectiveness...

covert pewter
#

I'll take a look at Slow.

limpid geode
#

thank you Auchand - I hope it can go back to dispelling haste effects like it used to as well as the bugs getting fixed

fringe orchid
thin pagoda
#

I can't imagine being able to balance that against a square with at most 1x in spell ranks and spell aim and lores vs a pure with 2x in everything except level.

#

And yes, monks are squares, even if they're designed like some sort of semi-semi

fringe orchid
oblique coral
#

As a 3x elemental lores wizard, i also vote for more lore-centric disabler bonuses!

fringe orchid
#

Oh no, with lots of lore training, 410 hits 100%, whatever will we do

Meanwhile in comes Warriorboy berserking with 800-1000 AS.

coral spade
# fringe orchid We shouldn't be trying to balance spells around a square. They should be using ...

I actually agree with this, and have suggested the balance fix for square spell use is a Spellblade or similar feat to enable whatever needs to be enabled. Square spell use is long established, but its more round peg in square hole these days then maybe it has ever been. It needs a bridge of some sort

As for the warrior AS....very few folks are clocking 800AS. Let alone 1000AS. No one should balance around that metric anymore than they should balance around what Mevlin can do CS wise

dusky hatch
#

Yeah, 800 isn't representative - especially in spell sever zones.

coral spade
#

With full enhancives on, s6 weapon, symbol of supremacy and the xp totals below and swinging at undead. +40 weapon AND a KS absorb buff going
Ascension Exp: 4,450,683 Total Exp: 18,445,070

  AS: +715 vs DS: +381 with AvD: +45 + d100 roll: +21 = +400```
Thats my absolute top end AS
zealous dew
night panther
# 
Your spell is ready.
You gesture at a cadaverous tatterdemalion ghast.
[SMR result: 158 (Open d100: 50)]
A translucent force moves outward from you and toward a cadaverous tatterdemalion ghast.
A cadaverous tatterdemalion ghast is buffeted by the force and is knocked to the ground.
Cast Roundtime 2 Seconds.```I have 20 ranks MnM, level 100 vs level 101 ghast. 1207's working fine, for whoever was asking.
dusky hatch
random zealot
coral spade
# zealous dew Rogues don't really have access to an AoE knockdown outside of 410/435. A Rogue...

Yeah, I've suggested that Kroderine Soul would be a great model for Elite Asc Feats. You get X amount of asc xp and you can select an Elite Feat.

Make 3-4 each for Squares/Semis/Pure. Total of 9-12 feats. You can only choose one feat. Its very defining in playstyle (like KS is). It comes with passive benefits and two active abilities. Should have drawbacks or at least the opportunity cost of not having the other feats

I think a spellblade/mageblade/magesquare type feat would actually solve a lot of these issues.

#

Make a similar pure magewarrior feat for warpaths/warmages and we solve that too

zealous dew
#

it definitely would be neat if KS was more viable for a Rogue at the high end. Right now it's just a filler build until you can get a good amount of spell training as a Rogue

coral spade
#

Yeah I won't pretend to understand classes beyond warrior very well. But I do think most complaints I see about various builds/profession combat issues can be solved with a Feat designed for them

pearl creek
# coral spade With full enhancives on, s6 weapon, symbol of supremacy and the xp totals below ...

800 and 1000 too low for warriors these days? I haven't been watching too closely 😛

It's worth noting that your AS is also on a KS warrior, while the AS cited for 800+ is folks wearing spells. Specifically outside spells. Self spelled with zealot, you're still higher than my paladin's AS with 2x the xp and potentially more toys. Not sure how bards or other squares stack up, but warriors are still top dog in AS. That's also paired with KS being an order of magnitude more durable at the same time. Anyway, agreed we shouldn't balance around Melivns or Roblars.

dusky hatch
coral spade
past cloak
#

Cheaty McCheatface reporting for duty.```You spring from hiding and aim a blow at a shining winged disir's head!
[SMR result: 149 (Open d100: 55, Penalty: 2)]
The winged disir is paralyzed!

** Necrotic energy from your xazkruvrixis tanto overflows into you! **

You feel energized!
** The coraesine relic on your xazkruvrixis tanto flares up with a blazing white-grey aura! Vicious winds curl around you in a spiraling vortex, increasing your momentum as you let loose a lightning-quick strike! **
Dark tendrils lash out from your tenorite black sweater and invigorate your resolve!
You take aim and swing a reverse-edge xazkruvrixis tanto at a shining winged disir!
AS: +976 vs DS: +546 with AvD: -3 + d100 roll: +35 = +462
... and hit for 69 points of damage!
Strike to the eye penetrates skull, ocular fluid sprays widely!```

#

And all I take away from that is, "It's not 1000."

night panther
#

Tonis up, hit by 1602, slowed applied but only increased my RT by one second. Dispelled 1602, Slowed falls off, my RT is suddenly 4 seconds, even with Tonis up. STOP 1035 and re-sing fixed it. I know Auchand is looking at this just pasting in case this is at all helpful.

📎 message.txt
low mango
coral spade
#

I think a feat should do more than that. But ive never been for gating weapon techs

verbal portal
#

I'd like to see a Runestaff Brawler cman, similar to Shield Brawler, to give Pures another melee option

low mango
echo aurora
#

I don't think the 30s cap on mind jolt is working in Atoll (unless it stacked on me, and it can stack).

dusky hatch
#

Have submitted a BUG regarding 611/609 interaction, it does not appear to be functioning currently (not empowering the 609 cast for a plasma crit + consume moonbeam). Last successful interaction I have logged was 1/12

fringe orchid
# 
A lithe veiled sentinel spins into a deadly martial form, thrusting out a hand at you!
A crackling whip of energy lashes out at you!
  CS: +438 - TD: +398 + CvA: +15 + d100: +92 == +147
   ... 35 points of damage!
   Vertebrae snap in succession!
   You are knocked to the ground!
   You are stunned for 12 rounds!

When is this getting a capped duration

keen cape
#

that's a stun from the critical. they are capped based on the length of the stun, just like any other stun.

echo aurora
#

Stun from a critical from a disabling spell (I assume thats 1210) is not capped?

#

I guess it just begs the question for me, why aren’t all stuns for players capped at 30 seconds?

keen cape
#

because a "round" is a specific amount of time. you are stunned for X rounds.

#

based on what I've seen, those durations have not changed.

echo aurora
#

I don’t know what to pull from that. Does that mean the 12 round stun is now less than 30 seconds? Or do you mean the system isn’t designed to cap it at 30s?

fierce saddle
#

i think the ask is to hopefully one day cap "rounds" of stun at 30 seconds of stun, I don't believe it currently has a cap, just whatever is in the crit tables

keen cape
#

No. You're mixing up the "negative effects" from a spell, and what a stun is.

#

Stagger would be a negative effect.

echo aurora
#

Sorry, when I am typing at my computer and cannot do anything because I have been “stunned” is that more or less than 30s there?

fierce saddle
#

I believe each round is 5 or 6 seconds, so that 12 round stun is 60 or 72 seconds of stun

keen cape
#

the spell deals damage, and causes a crit - you've now moved beyond what the negative effects being inflicted are by the spell. You're now being damaged like it would be from a flare that could stun you for the same amount of time.

echo aurora
#

So that’s my question… why do we have any stuns that last longer than 30 seconds for players? Maybe that’s outside the scope of this thread.

Got it. Thank you for the explanation.

keen cape
#

the stun duration is not tied to being from a spell

fierce saddle
#

yeah it's not part of spell disablers, as for "why" because that's how it's always been, I think it should be changed, but it's not spell specific, it's "rounds of stun" specific which is generally tied to crit tables

echo aurora
#

Ok, so, it’s time for me to write up a different forum post asking why stun duration isn’t capped at 30s for players and 60s for mobs?

keen cape
#

a request to reduce the "per round" duration is above my head.

#

just explaining how it works

nova violet
#

The thing that I think is funny about this is that I vaguely remember that thought lash stuns were part of the original discussion in which we found out about the negative effects cap

keen cape
#

a good comparison would be something like the "roundtime" inflicted by footstomp vs the stun duration of a flare that deals a rank 4 crit

nova violet
#

Because they’re one of the few things players interact with that regularly last a super long time!

echo aurora
#

I know. I really appreciate the explanation. I’m not even a D+ mechanics student.

nova violet
#

And I remember thinking at the time that I wasn’t sure how capping the stun delivered by thought lash was going to work because that stun just comes from the grapple crit table

keen cape
#

but something like moonbeam could previously go up to 60sec, and you'd get locked by the evil shan ranger

echo aurora
#

I guess that, maybe, explains why Nisugi also thought the disabler duration was bugged in atolls

keen cape
#

so those effects should be capped at 30sec I believe

#

some effects are capped at much less than 30, inherently.

#

Grapple is nasty when it comes to stuns.

nova violet
#

Honestly I think reducing the length of crit table stuns that are longer than 6 rounds would maybe be a good idea but it would weaken them for players and mobs alike

keen cape
#

yeah, that's super above my head. not sure if this is the right place to discuss stuns in general.

dusty rivet
echo aurora
#

Sorry, I genuinely thought that most of the stuns I received from 1210, which is pretty frequently in Atoll, would be capped at 30s. So, this is just news to me: #krakenʼs-fall message and #krakenʼs-fall message — this realization is genuinely disappointing for me (rangers have virtually no rip cord for stunbreakers or access to stunmans). But that’s what I get for being a D+ mechanics student.

Maybe the disabler review’s application of survival to mitigating disabling effects should be applied more broadly to mitigating stun duration (e.g. survivability) too.

night panther
#

Stun is an extremely useless thing for players to do to creatures once you're past pretty early levels. It gets shaken so much, lol.

fringe orchid
#

I'm going to say it applies here, because it's a spell initating the status, even if it's the critical that's causing the stun.

Either way, idc, it's too long.

Everything related to monks is just OP and broken

fierce saddle
#

yeah I went in detail that rounds of stun probably should be looked at, in the same way that RT has been slowly replaced by stagger, a "stunned" condition slowly replacing rounds of stun and updating crit tables and effects to replace would be nice, but it's a very large project, and I think probably falls in behind get everyone a service IMO

keen cape
fringe orchid
#

I didn't realize bolt spells were disablers.

1210 is basically the mental version of 110.

keen cape
#

But this isn't the place to discuss stuns in general.

#

I'm not saying you're right or wrong, but stuns from injuries being inflicted are on an entirely different bandwith than spells.

fringe orchid
#

1210 is a disabler. I'm talking about that spell in the disabler thread.

keen cape
#

Yes but is the spell causing a stun, like Mind Jolt?

#

or is that a stun inflicted by a critical?

fringe orchid
#

Doesn't matter

keen cape
#

well that's the difference.

echo aurora
#

Is there some other status effect of 1210?

night panther
#

Status effect? Not necessarily, but it does amplify critical ranks against you until the spell runs out

fringe orchid
#

I made a comment about a disabler spell, in the disabler thread.

While I'm not trying to be overly rude, I would appreciate if you would let Dev chime in with a response, since you've stated this is super above your head.

keen cape
#

I'm just explaining the difference between how a spell effect works vs the stun duration from a critical.

#

and by saying "above my head" I was saying that the Decision how stun durations work is not my call.

#

I know how it works

#

You don't spend thousands of hours testing stuff and not know how it works. But thanks for letting me know you aren't trying to be rude.

fringe orchid
#

I didn't see anyone ask how it works, but thanks for explaining?

keen cape
#

you asked why it wasn't capped at 30s

#

it's fine. You don't like the answer.

#

Have a nice day

fringe orchid
#

#1191064189981163611 message
Alastir: When is this getting a capped duration

#

The tl;dr for me, is that all disablers, which includes every possible status effect (+ stuns). Should be capped in the new duration, with the survival reduction.

I don't care how the status affect is applied, Spell, PSM, critical, insert any other word you want, whatever. It should be capped in duration, and survival should reduce the duration.

keen cape
#

And I think that's a totally fair thing to discuss, but once we start including things that are Not spells then we need to move it to mechanics.

#

thanks.

fringe orchid
#

1210 is a disabler spell?

dusky hatch
#

1210 doesn't apply a status.

nova violet
#

it does apply a debuff but it doesn't apply a PSM-style status effect

keen cape
#

Stuns are not a specific spell effect. It's just how the damage is handled.

fringe orchid
keen cape
#

110 applies an effect.

#

outside of the damage.

nova violet
#

I think the point about 1210 and stuns caused by spells is clearly made at this point in any case so there is nothing else really to discuss about it

keen cape
#

the stun incurred along with the Stagger effect can be longer than the Stagger effect.

nova violet
#

so there is no reason to argue over whether you should be able to discuss it either haha

dusky hatch
#

The unbalance crit from 110 is presumabily uncapped in the same way as 1210. Except unbalance instead of grapple

echo aurora
#

Ok, then as part of the disabler review thread, may I request that 1210 remove the critical effect and apply a disabling effect instead?

nova violet
#

110's unbalance crit calculation is odd, it does not seem that tightly linked to endroll

#

it might actually be a st_nd_rd fl_re

keen cape
#

That was the longest explanation of A doesn't cause C, B causes C.

echo aurora
#

I thought A caused B which caused C, so it's also fair to think that A caused C.

fringe orchid
echo aurora
#

I'm not trying to argue semantics, <edited, because I am clearly arguing semantics>; and I have complicated feelings about making the same points as Alastir, but I squarely thought this was falling under this review.

nova violet
#

without getting too extensively into the weeds here, 1210 was updated in the spell disabler review, this aspect just wasn't

keen cape
#

heh, yeah 1210 is a disabler only in the sense that it has the negative padding effect. the damage is just like Grapple damage from anything else that deals that damage type. the stun duration is the same as anything else that deals Grapple damage of the same intensity.

#

which is why I was stunned for 6 rounds after taking 1 damage from a triton brawler (damage padding).

#

hehe

#

those guys are mean!

dusty rivet
#

Different grapple table.

acoustic hull
#

Disable duration review coming RSN!

nova violet
#

it's not semantics, it is factual that it was updated in the spell disabler review but it is also factual that stun durations from crits clearly weren't

dusky hatch
# fringe orchid I didn't realize that a creature casting a SPELL which caused me to be DISABLEd ...

You're just unwilling to acknowledge that they're separate topics. It seems pretty clear that grapple criticals (nor similar critical related stuns) weren't ever in scope of the Spell Disabler Review. After the explanation, it seems evident that the options are to request that 1210 not apply scaling grapple criticals differently anymore - or move to another venue and request that grapple criticals get reviewed.

nova violet
#

so it's actually history

#

albeit

#

fairly modern history

#

I think I would actually say maybe 1210's crit rank calculation might benefit from some consideration rather than either of those options

#

since it delivers much larger crits than 110 does

dusky hatch
#

Can't keep up with Tikba's slowmode bypass hax 😆

echo aurora
#

That's the real disabler.

nova violet
#

you literally can't, that is true

dusty rivet
#

But if you reduce the crits i might not get a random rank 9 neck kill when I’m bored in non-ascenion areas with it

keen cape
#

Just for some reference if anyone would like to read more about Stunned. The first sentence in "Causes" is what I'm referring to.

https://gswiki.play.net/Stunned

fringe orchid
#

I thought we weren't allowed to talk about that here.

limpid geode
#

it's such a privilege to have game devs communicating with us freely here - let's treat them with respect so they keep doing it ❤️

echo aurora
#

Could we change 110 to the grapple critical table? <Realizes the name of the spell makes that a super dumb idea, but isn't going to delete this post... is just going to let it marinate>

dusky hatch
#

I'm not sure that'd make it meaningfully more desirable for players to use, but it would make it less desirable to be on the receiving end as a player

dusty rivet
#

Fun fact. That would actually be worse probably.

nova violet
#

I will take the third possible option here and say that would basically have no impact and they're more or less the same table

#

the difference between 110 and 1210 is not the table, it's the endroll to crit rank calculation

echo aurora
#

I just talked with Kaetel about it. He explained to me why it's a bad idea. Suggestion retracted.

dusty rivet
#

And that it’s a mental spell and most players have trash MTD.

keen cape
#

in a similar manner that twohanded swords do slashing and crushing damage, and a handaxe does slashing and crushing damage, but the endroll required to hit different ranks of damage/criticals is not the same. This is not a direct comparison between the two spells either.

dusky hatch
dusty rivet
#

I think. Maybe I’m off a rank eyeballing it. Either way it’s like 6+ for both every time on most shots cause of how 1210 works. If you want to fix 1210 you’d need to cap the rank lower but give it a gurnateed knockdown maybe similar to how tackle, etc just knockdown outside the crit.

dusky hatch
# dusty rivet So does unbalance. Higher on mid ranks actually.

Now I'm confused, because I was comparing graple to unbalance - and am looking at the tables. Starting at abdomen/chest rank 3, head/neck/eye rank 2, grapple stuns for equal or longer. The only time where unbalance seems better is rank 10 eyes which are fatal

keen cape
#

tackle does concussion damage, there is no crit.

echo aurora
#

(loves watching the mechanics inclined folks mechanic)

dusty rivet
#

Tackle maybes a bad example but bullrush does it too pretty sure.

keen cape
#

Yeah, bullrush does unbalance

#

and vulnerable, and staggered. We should just make stuff bullrush instead of use spells! oh wait, minotaurs do that.

#

variety is good.

dusty rivet
#

But either way looking at the default high crit rank it seems like the idea was “ensure this knocks down but doesn’t get tooo crazy”. Which works against creatures but now players get slammed by high rank crits routinely when combined with the high minimum rank plus the relative lack of MTD.

#

And I say all this as someone who has no problem with it as a player target of it, and probably used it more against creatures than anyone else in the game. That’s just a guess there’s maybe some other monk that was wilding out with it but I doubt it.

nova violet
#

Also because PC monks generally don’t have 440 mnm CS haha

#

Except for you SPECIFICALLY

keen cape
#

😄 there might be a good argument to limit the potency of the spell against players. that's the stuff I can't really chime in about.

dusty rivet
acoustic hull
#

Which creature abilities were being referenced here, I wonder. Creature spells not present on any PC spell lists?

IMG_3182.png
dusty rivet
#

god i hope it's bailisk gaze

#

"you're just stuck for like 2 minutes, bro. sorry." on endless waves that aren't far enough in where they can kill you yet and you're just like.... is the shame of giving up on wave 40 worth it or do i wait this out and let rngsus take the wheel?

acoustic hull
#

Sorry we don’t balance for arena. Better luck next time

dusty rivet
verbal portal
acoustic bough
#

Man I missed a good one last night. I'd really be sad if they nerfed my briar flares I spent a lot of money for by changing the grapple critical table.

night panther
#

While stuns as their own mechanic were outside the scope for this review, if we've agreed 30s is an appropriate duration cap to place on being disabled, I think adjusting stuns to not be longer than 6 rounds would be a good next step

humble moth
#

Stuns are also tied into legacy code everyone. Tons of spells, critical tables, etc. it's not a part of the new PSM status ailment effect set.

coral spade
#

I wouldnt be surprised if it would be easier to give every class a reliable stun escape than to actually change stuns themselves

humble moth
#

I think we're halfway there

coral spade
#

The problem is too long stuns. The solution is shorter stuns. Several ways to accomplish that without changing stuns themselves. Juice:squeeze wise

dusty rivet
#

The most boring possible answer. Yay!

royal kite
coral spade
#

Ive got 44% redux and 10 cer plate. Even i can get 7 round stuns. Heh. Honestly, stun escapes seem like the most interesting answer. It promotes counterplay

humble moth
#

Berserk?

coral spade
#

Oh yeah. ‘I’ dont have this problem. Im just saying for classes that dont.

royal kite
#

I don't disagree that a 20 round stun (the highest I think I've seen) is sort of pointless given the general pace of the game, but that said, I have been able to walk away from 10 round stuns in the past so... better than an insta-death in that at least there is some chance of survival, even if small.

It definitely does make for an exciting x rounds where you are hoping you get out before imminent death arrives; though maybe not everyone's cup of tea.

#

And my note about padding - it certainly won't eliminate higher duration stuns completely but it definitely does reduce the frequency with which they occur.

fierce saddle
#

a stun break cman that just everyone could train, could be balanced with cooldowns and such, seems like a reasonable options, those whom have existing breaks wouldn't nessecarily need it if they didn't want it, but it'd be there for any whom wanted to pick it up

echo aurora
#

30s stun (6 round max) (for players) with stun round reduction for survival training + give rangers and anyone else that doesn’t have a reliable escape route access to stunmans.

fierce saddle
#

I've talked about it a couple times, but while I totally agree that maxing stun duration would be awesome (it's on my wishlist for sure), updating all the places with "rounds of stun" is a HUGE task.

echo aurora
#

It’s probably just moving the location of a decimal or two.

fierce saddle
#

just so much legacy code, so many crit tables

acoustic hull
#

stagger-style stuns! Duration capped but they can overlap and refresh now

royal kite
acoustic hull
echo aurora
acoustic bough
#

Yeah I initially thought it would encompass all stuns. Just a lack of game mechanics understanding.

acoustic hull
#

yeah it's tricky. Gemstone in particular, through no fault of any individual per se, is notoriously bad at the specificity or generality of the naming conventions

night panther
#

I also went into this with the expectation that stun durations would get capped. Enough people had that impression that I think communication could have been better. It is what it is. I hope stun durations are looked at.

coral spade
#

The older a piece of the GS combat system is, the less likely it is wise to screw with it. Stun was there day 1

humble moth
#

I agree with Ptolemy and Vaemyr. The intent was standardizing disables to use the new PSM disablers, which stun was never a part of. Those PSM disables have been normalized in duration. Stun is super super all over the place. It'd be a nice to have, but, I think there's still some edge cases to clean up from the initial disabler review, like paladin bonded weapon benefits, that I would have on a higher priority than scope creep. Other problems? I dunno, the paladin one is the only one I know about offhand, but I'm sure there's a few out there on their radar

plain wedge
#

Any chance we could consider adding a stagger effect to Song of Depression since 410 is very unreliable for Bards?

echo aurora
# humble moth I agree with Ptolemy and Vaemyr. The intent was standardizing disables to use t...

Wish you (or really anyone) had said that when it was requested and discussed for the months in advance of the release.

The number of times stun duration was specifically raised by different people in different settings provided ample time to correct the misperception.

It’s not hard to go back through and find them: #mechanics message and #mechanics message and #mechanics message

Let’s be honest, no one was complaining that vulnerable or disengaged effects were lasting too long on players.

echo aurora
nova violet
#

I don't think there is any argument from anyone that stunned is not an effect

#

and in fact several spells that deliver stunned as an effect were changed

echo aurora
#

That’s why I asked for and asterisk.

nova violet
#

what would the asterisk indicate

#

don't say a footnote sorry

#

what would the content of the footnote be

echo aurora
#

Sorry, I’m on a minute long delay.

It would say that A doesn’t cause C, B causes C.

dusky hatch
#

706/505 do directly cause it

acoustic bough
#

Stuns caused by critical damage are not disables.

nova violet
#

I don't understand that argument at all tbh

#

of course they are disables

dusky hatch
#

They are different from ability sourced disablers

echo aurora
#

I am aware of this fact now. I am suggesting that I don’t like it being suggested that it was obvious 6 months ago that 1210 wasn’t going to cap stun duration.

acoustic bough
nova violet
#

let me be clear that my position here is not grounded on a misunderstanding of how stuns and criticals work

#

I agree with leff, I thought that this would be covered in the disabler review based on the conversations we had

#

I don't think it is productive to debate the question of whether that understanding was reasonable haha

echo aurora
acoustic bough
#

I don't think anyone has debated whether that was the understanding. But it clearly was not a fact. So clarification is warranted.

echo aurora
#

It may have been the result of the disabler review, but the intent was not made clear, nor misperceptions corrected, resulting in me getting the sads.

nova violet
#

when I asked about this I asked whether "stuns would be limited to 30 seconds" and the answer was yes, possibly that answer changed between then and release

echo aurora
#

I don’t know if I agree with everyone or disagree.

dusky hatch
#

Yeah it seems evident that most players were treating all stuns as equal. But in true GS fashion, there are actually umpteen variations of effects and sources that share the name but execute in their own unique way

verbal portal
#

I'm not sure if this fits into the conversation happening regarding stuns, but I'd be curious whether the RT lock issue has been resolved through the Disabler review, or if RT Lock is still an issue.

keen cape
#

I don't think it's appropriate to count stuns outside of those strictly caused by the spell effect in the Spell Disabler Review, because stuns are inflicted by **almost **every source of damage in the game.

#

also, I may or may not have stock in oaken wands.

dusty rivet
#

i've said this before but one of my favorite things in the game is feeding oaken wands to the bazz gloves that are reward from troubled waters. they come pre-installed with water walking and have a custom activation message of basically throwing a life preserver. but you change it to unstun and you're basically doing a sexy magic mike dance to snap people out of their daze

fierce saddle
#

I don't think anyone is saying that updating stun would be a bad thing. But like let's be realistic here, it's a very large dev project mist likely to do. Like what's more important, update every crit table to change rounds of stun, or deliver services to remaining classes that don't have them.

Then ok, we'll how about class reviews? Charms/gemstones/capstones? More ascension one day hopefully. The spells that directly cause stun were updated like 706, but crit tables are a whole nother ballgame. Yes I wish we had infinite dev resources so that things like this could happen without delaying anything else, but that's not reality.

coral spade
#

I literally think you can sort out the stun issue by reviewing every class and their acess to stun-escapes/breaks. Some classes are already g2g. others are due reviews anyway

echo aurora
echo aurora
keen cape
echo aurora
#

This is so frustrating. I appreciate you Marsteforn, but I don’t like being blamed for having expectations about this. It is not unrealistic to expect stuns from 1210, to have been capped at 30s.

rugged raft
#

A significant portion of the initial impetus for asking things be looked into was “hey, these stun durations are kinda insane”

#

If that wasn’t the scope of this project, fine, but it just places that impetus back onto the grumbling pile, and it would have been cool to have addressed it during what seemed like the time it was going to be addressed

keen cape
#

I think a better solution would be to have tools to reduce it, or consider how the spell specifically affects players, than to overhaul the critical tables. That is all I was implying.

nova violet
#

I definitely believed based on conversations we had that this was within the intended scope of the spell disabler review.

keen cape
#

I am not saying your suggestion is wrong. I'm saying that maybe the solution you are presenting isn't the most likely option.

#

but valid? yes

#

At some point we have to look at something like Hurl Boulder as a baseline "does damage" and that's it kind of spell. And that can cause some pretty long stuns on a high endroll.

#

1210 isn't really different. It uses a result to produce a critical, and Grapple is known to stun for a long time.

#

so if the complaint is that 1210 causes stuns far too easily, it might be a bit overpowered vs players. What solutions are there to that?

#

but is it overpowered vs players?

nova violet
#

1210 did actually get updated in the spell disabler review, just to be clear, I think everybody understands it to be a disabling spell and not a kill spell

#

it disables by delivering a large grapple crit, in the same way that many PSM disablers disable by delivering a large unbalance crit

#

I do kind of think it is too strong IN GENERAL to be honest

#

it's just that it's a CS spell in minor mental and so it is, I have always assumed, extra powerful because only monks can cast it and it would be useless for them otherwise

visual dune
#

At this point my take-away is (paraphrased): "Oh the normalization of debuff effects to 30 seconds on players (60 seconds on creatures) is nice. I like this change. Would dev consider applying this change to all sources of stuns as well because being stunned for over 30 seconds isn't fun gameplay."

Did I miss any key points or tremendously egregious sources that would be beneficial to call attention to?

keen cape
#

that is what the takeaway is from what I've seen, yeah.

nova violet
#

That seems like the whole idea yeah haha

#

1210 is really the only spell that I see produce this kind of reaction, honestly

keen cape
#

Grapple is pretty good!

#

or bad, depending which side of it you are on

nova violet
#

when DI was still planned I was going to infuse thoughtlash in my paladin's weapon

#

I dreamed a dream 😭

pearl creek
#

Im still sad that infusing 110 is now more effective, for a fraction of the resources, than 1615

I mean, great change for 110 and 118. They’re great now

nova violet
#

that's true actually I can just infuse 110

#

but I think 1210 is actually better!

pearl creek
#

You have native access to 110! It’s about sustainability at some point for which spell to infuse

dusty rivet
nova violet
rugged raft
#

For classes without a stun breaker, stun over 30 seconds rounds up to dead, which, as mentioned, isn't exceptionally fun

#

I can jam the emergency macro button as hard as anyone, but futility isn't typically compelling gameplay

nova violet
#

I feel like they might decide they actually prefer some third option

night panther
#

I honestly think any stun much past 6 rounds was originally intended to basically mean you die anyway, and it’s a testament to gear and kit improvements that we often are able to survive

nova violet
#

unless somebody hauls you out of there, yeah

acoustic hull
#

served to promote grouping!

keen cape
#

I'm just glad we've moved beyond trying to fix one spell and are looking at the whole picture now. 😛

#

anyway. have fun everyone.

coral spade
analog nexus
#

Hrm. Of those that I play, I think sorc and monk are the two that get stuck in stuns every now and then.

echo aurora
#

So paladins, rogues, warriors, monks, empaths, and bards all have stun breakers... which leaves... wizards, sorcerers, clerics, and rangers? I can really only speak to rangers and wizards on that list... rangers already got our review. And 605 commune is not a breaker (or very useful in my opinion) ... so I don't see any hope on the horizon.

image.png
analog nexus
#

Timestop?

echo aurora
#

550 should probably get added to that list?

nova violet
#

Clerics have a defensive ability that can be used in a stun but no ability to break out of a stun

#

This is probably not appropriate for the disabler thread though

limpid geode
#

we have nervestaves! which btw I think a GM was considering investing some time/effort into improving 🙂

brittle bane
#

I too thought that anything that made your player unable to move or do anything in combat was going to be capped at 30 seconds.. no matter the source, whether its a stun from a spell, a PSM move, a critical or whatever.. this just based on the impressions from conversations with GM's months ago here. 30 seconds is still a loooong time... 😛

acoustic hull
#

adding a generic status clear ability through ascension would be cool. Cooldown improvement per rank; expand the affected statuses per tier

low mango
#

I would say that Empath's stunbreaker is nice to have but not exceptionally reliable. I don't just hit a button and get out of being stunned. It's more of "Welp, I'm stunned. Let's see if my stunbreaker procs... nope... okay, how about now? Nope. Okay, how about-- oh, I'm dead."

coral spade
#

Does it scale with lore training or something?

brittle bane
#

Furthermore, if the empath happens to be non-magically stunned when the effect occurs, there is a chance to break the stun. The base chance to break a stun is 50% - 1% per second of the stun remaining, with a minimum chance of 10%. Empaths also gain a self-cast bonus of +1% chance per 5 spell ranks known, uncapped.

#

is that self-cast bonus just total empath spell ranks/5? if so, most empaths would be 166/5 for +33%, bringing up the chance to break a stun to 83%... but then a 12 round stun brings that down 60%, to a 23% chance.. and that happens EVERY OTHER 20 second interval which you can bring down to 12 seconds with lore... so I'm a mechanics noob.. but I THINK, it has a chance to remove a stun every 24 seconds at that point? (two 12 intervals?)

#

also, wizards can use 550 once a day baseline....

verbal portal
brittle bane
chrome light
#

back when I played Stunseed, I always thought Assume Aspect should have had ASSUME PRIMAL, which breaks a stun and all uses of 650 left, could have assigned it with a lore training to do x/day like most capstone spells

limpid geode
#

I'm not really a fan of just giving every class a stun breaker - but I like having an alternative option for every class...like clerics can INFUSE SPIRIT while stunned and empaths can REGENERATE as a way to try to survive the stun.

coral spade
#

Thing is, only some classes can survive a stun once stunned. My warrior can sit in a 7 round stun and probably survive a draugr mstrike. A stunned pure is probably going to be splat.

I don't think every class needs a stun 'breaker' but everyone should have an escape. The escape could be something like an immobilize of enemies usable while stunned, or maybe let Empaths have a way to command a sympathied target to bear hug a foe and detain them. I dunno. EVERYTHING should have counterplay, even if if the counterplay isn't the same for each class

#

Nothing is more frustrating in any game than simply saying 'oh well, this is beyond my power and there is/was nothing I could have done to prevent it'

acoustic hull
#

550 is great and all, but once I've used my charges for the day I'm either done playing for the day or I just have to resign myself to death next time I'm stunned

coral spade
#

An ability like that should work as is when you have charges and have a lesser effect when out of charges or something like that. So you are rewarded for avoiding having to use it, but you are not totally screwed when the charges are up. Or maybe it has a large scaling mana cost on a per day basis or something. If you use it once or twice a day, normal mana cost. After that. 2x/3x/4x etc. Reward the good gameplay but provide counterplay

limpid geode
#

I consider INFUSE SPIRIT and REGENERATE to be counterplay for sure. And if you want more than that, there's gear: nerve staves, mana infused armor, voln armor, etc. that can add to your survivability...and these wouldn't be as interesting/helpful if we had plenty of stun, etc. breaks at our disposal. The price point for the armors is pretty insane to get those abilities though, that's for sure.

acoustic hull
#

had to burn my 550 charges on my first few hunts this morning so I guess I'm done for the day 👋

rotund nest
#

Just stick to easier quarry for the rest of the day

low mango
#

Ah, how quickly we reach the "These items were expensive so we can't allow normal class abilities to replace them," phase.

nova violet
#

I kind of agree with tsalin that class defensive suites can’t really be reduced to “stun breaker” as they are more complex and differentiated between classes

#

Like clerics and sorcerers both have abilities that are designed to let them survive stuns (sometimes) but they are not stun breakers

dusty rivet
#

I don't want them to be. Giving everyone "beseech, but ya know...with elemental energy" is boooooooooring. Classes are different, they should have different ways of dealing with things.

low mango
#

True, but in almost all cases "not being stunned" is objectively better than anything those other class abilities offer. Especially when the stun breakers aren't on a 24 hour cool down

nova violet
#

I think that’s too simplistic! “Be in hiding” is probably better than “don’t be stunned”, for example

#

“Teleport out of the combat area and then get bitten by a demon” arguably better too

dusty rivet
#

that is kind of how the differences m anifest though. i don't think it's a coincidence for instant that rangers (that by all acounts have amazing base defenses) have the worst way to handle when that defense is cracked vs bards and paladins which have like the best status breaks and less good base defenses (not to open that can of worms on that topic)

i think everyone should have some option or options for when they are in a bad spot. i just don't think they should all be "clear all statuses"

nova violet
#

This is not to say these abilities are inarguably better, it’s to say the design is more complex than you suggest

tough flame
#

All of this falls squarely under the “don’t care enough to want a single moment spent on this before profession reviews, new services, and gemstones so we can get to Elite/Legendary Ascension” territory for me.

If long stuns are death, so be it. Pures and rangers can already do a ton of work in guarded at reduced risk in the first place.

low mango
#

I will argue that's its hard to balance any system around the stun mechanics

nova violet
#

The classes with the inarguable best stun breakers are bards and paladins. You will note it is not making paladins the dominant class. (Sorry Dinaden!)

night panther
#

1125 once you get your Empath base ranks is pretty good now also. I enjoyed that during the time period between it being updated and fixing my empath into a cleric.

plain wedge
#

409 and 415 still feel underwhelming. 409 got no changes, and kinda has no value in any build though as designed right now its not really a disabler. 415 got the stagger feature added, but is still a warding spell, and still costs 15 mana.

night panther
dusky hatch
#

"Ability to deal with stuns" isn't the whole picture. Many classes have mechanisms to mitigate the number of outcomes for which "stunned" is a possible result. For example, rangers have 640 to just lolnope out of some percentage of combat resolutions - which is obviously superior to "I got stunned, what now?". So in the grand scheme, we have to account for how many times a given class is subject to being stunned as a proportion of their total resolutions - and then at what mechanisms they have to address that subset.

plain wedge
night panther
#

335 disables things if they don't die, can we please reduce its mana cost and cast RT. Please and thank you.

dusky hatch
#

While I agree that 605 commune is an inferior mechanism to beseech - I would wager that rangers get stunned far less on average than paladins of similar exp/gear

dusty rivet
#

it's hilarious how long of a stun i can survive on a ranger just sitting there. i absolutely think we can and should cap stuns from any source at 30 seconds and just be like fine, you survived long enough you win (this consequently does close the gap overall between people with great status breaks those with "just" amazing defense. )

plain wedge
#

110 could also be considered an "attack" spell, but it got a review and still deals unbalance damage, now has significantly lower mana, and is a much more useful spell than 415 (or 409).

echo aurora
#

I’d be fine with capping at 30s and survival reduces that time more — it would help stun mitigation for rangers without needing to give them access to stun breakers, or some other escape mechanism.

keen cape
#

while not a stun breaker, animal companion GUARD is kind of neat. I don't know how it works in practice though.

#

can it be used while stunned, or just in RT?

echo aurora
#

It helps raise DS (+5 to +25) and they will attack if you get stunned. It’s an awesome help and ability, but it won’t save you, unless the companion is able to incapacitate a mob. Edit: Sorry, I should clarify, guard doesn’t auto attack when stunned, that function is related telling it to behave defensively (as opposed to neutral or offensive). Guard is the “status effect” (not sure if that’s correct term) for companion.

keen cape
#

Ah, good to know. Can they wake you up if you are unconscious? That would be funny.

#

a little bite, just to start the day...err.. hunt

dusty rivet
#

that would actually be a kinda hilarious thing specifically for that exact status condition lol. "wake up treat machine, i require you to live at least until lunch"

echo aurora
nova violet
#

I believe cats and dogs can only drag corpses

#

I would agree that "a pet that hangs out with you and tries to kill enemies when you are incapacitated" is a defensive option that works fairly sensibly alongside barkskin commune and wall of thorns

echo aurora
#

Sorry, I can take this to the ranger thread but, strong disagreement.

nova violet
#

I'm wondering whether we should actually specifically make a thread for class defenses since it's something people want to discuss at length

echo aurora
#

I get that, but why bifurcate the discussion, it feels like all of this falls under the topic of “being disabled”?

nova violet
#

unironically I don't feel like a general discussion of how class defenses are designed is relevant to the disabler review at all

#

except in the like holistic sense that all the mechanical systems are connected

keen cape
#

specific class stuff may be served better in their own class channels, this is true.

echo aurora
#

If the answer is, you have enough tools to survive being disabled, here are the tools… it seems relevant to say these tools don’t really help with being disabled.

keen cape
#

for the sake of being able to track it down and read it

keen cape
nova violet
#

I don't think that was "the answer"

keen cape
#

maybe not for this channel, but I don't think anyone gave an answer.

echo aurora
#

That’s fair. I will say that Mestys and team crushed the ranger review. It’s amazing. I want everyone to have that awesome experience.

But I don’t have much for hopes to seeing core ranger issues addressed outside of a class-agnostic review like this one. We got ours, it’s great, but there are a couple rough edges.

nova violet
#

the answer from meraki was "we have heard that your feedback is that stuns are too long"

echo aurora
#

Yeah, but like, I guess my alternative is to go back to work and get off discord. 😦

nova violet
#

literally your alternative is to POST IN THE ALTERNATIVE THREAD

vital umbra
#

I mean, or get back to work, but that sounds terrible

nova violet
#

I didn't include that yeah

low mango
#

Also you can't command them to return to guarding you while you're stunned, because you can't issue commands while stunned

dusky hatch
#

You need to work on your companion’s training

elder mist
#

Has there been any info on the rolled-back Bard disablers? I've tried searching but I'm inept. I can't find the original mention of the roll back or any updated info. Curious if we've heard anything.

vital umbra
#

No updates yet.

humble moth
#

I dunno, we all remember last time a bard spell got changed...

pearl creek
#

therebedragons.gif

I feel like bard songs are an ancient part of the code with warning signs all over it, with comments like "This bit isn't used or referenced anywhere, but if you remove it it'll break"

low mango
#

We can relive the Bard Service rollout. That was fun

onyx hound
#

I absolutely cannot go through the whole thread to see if it's already been addressed, but i've noticed that spells that have changed to 2s are still 3s with spell failure. I'm unsure if this is intended or not, but I know that with the swift casting ranger buff it's only 1s for failure, so I'm uncertain.

wheat moat
lavish saffron
# wheat moat *cough cough fatal nerve dmg from lightning flares on a 1 dmg weapon hit cough c...

Happened to me just yesterday! An Ithzir scout swings a spiral-hafted crystal-edged handaxe at you! AS: +414 vs DS: +418 with AvD: +32 + d100 roll: +74 = +102 ... and hits for 1 point of damage! Close shave! You take a quick step back. The scintillating silver light surrounding the handaxe fades some. ... 30 points of damage! Electric blast goes right to the heart! You'll miss that steady beat.I admit I wasn't frustrated though... made me laugh

faint cargo
#

It makes you laugh when it’s infrequent. When it happens semi regularly I assure it it’s not as amusing

lavish saffron
#

oh yes, I don't doubt it at all

empty mantle
#

If the spell disabler review hasn't been shut down, I would LOVE LOVE LOVE to see 512 cold snap have an option to cast the old ice patch variation with some variant of the cast. Having an ice patch on the ground, while not used by most, was an awesome defensive move for wizards, and would be a lot of fun in reim/ OSA and many other situations 🙂

#

Also all the recent updates have been really appreciated. I have been having a fricking BLAST with all the disabler updatesa across all ym characters, thank you!

covert pewter
#

It has not been shut down. Why would it be? 😛

hoary beacon
#

also, I'm late and don't wanna derail the discussion again, but regarding stuns.. for clerics and empaths.. an option to cast 213 while stunned would be swell

vital umbra
#

I would love to see ice patch back.

clever plank
#

I may have missed it. but is 1207 getting a review? I would love an area effect option!

solid cosmos
#

I would like the ice patch for Arena if nothing else.

pine charm
#

609 (sunburst-the open cast version) should probably cost less mana as part of the review. Kaetel says the targeted version is fine, and who am I to argue with someone smart enough to play a forest gnome....though I wouldn't mind if it added the blind effect to undead...it seems like it was designed to be more powerful against undead than living but the blind effect seems to have gotten better to the point that isn't the case anymore? Hugs and 😘

echo girder
#

It blinds ice golems, which the 611/609 combo seem the most effective way for me to damage. If it can blind a golem, I don't see why it shouldn't blind undead. Or do MASSIVE extra damage instead.

pine charm
echo girder
#

Are you undead?

pine charm
#

I have died a lot and still walk around......

dusky hatch
#

sym trans = undead lite?

echo aurora
#

Dendum, why don’t you just use sigil of escaaaape?

pine charm
# echo aurora Dendum, why don’t you just use sigil of escaaaape?

I don't really get mad hunting...I die, I die...no big deal.....sigil of escape use to make me actually mad when I would use it get massive nerve damage and a huge RT and land on a room with even more mobs...then die and THEN not be able to use the normal version for 24 hours because for god only knows why reasons they share the same cool down....

#

It should be called "sigil of die somewhere else and make the rest of your day worse"

#

Sigil of you should have joined another society

echo aurora
#

Sigil of escape is the best disabler the enemy has. Oh look, Dendum just used sigil escape, let’s move two rooms over and finish him!

low mango
#

Did they fix the 611/609 combo? It wasn't working after the review. Haven't tested it in a few days

torpid latch
rare mulch
#

Curious , as a fairly fresh capped rogue, how 410 would work, in Nelamar, after the new changes

acoustic bough
#

Everyone with ice skates wants 512 to make ice patches again too!

coral spade
#

Real and true

rotund nest
#

Anyone else notice that 950 still burns 50 mana if you attempt to cast it during cooldown? Something with the spell disabler changes borked it I think

humble ore
echo aurora
#

I feel like that was the ending of Westworld?

limpid geode
# brittle bane yes but it does nothing for chance of success to begin with 
[SMR result: 368 (Open d100: 286, Bonus: 59)]
The wind knocks an infernal lich off balance and he falls over!
[SMR result: 236 (Open d100: 78, Bonus: 56)]
The wind buffets a glistening cerebralite!
[SMR result: 292 (Open d100: 126, Bonus: 56)]
The wind buffets a glistening cerebralite!
Whipping winds swirl into a careening vortex.
Cast Roundtime 1 Second.
J>
A windy vortex darts toward an infernal lich in a gusty assault!```
I remembered this comment after I saw this happen - the vortex messed with the lich almost instantly after I cast 912. I was surprised how fast it helped.
brittle bane
humble moth
#

It's always helped super fast, from what I remember, at its slowest it may have been akin to 917 rounds

limpid geode
#

hard to say how much it helps though...is it stagger too? if both the initial and the vortex are stagger wouldn't it just refresh for almost net 0 improvement? maybe it's a longer stagger from the vortex or it's not stagger and adds to the previous stagger RT but I have no idea.

pearl creek
#

Has there been any comment on the pending issues list? #1191064189981163611 message

night panther
# 
A gust of wind tugs at your sleeves.  Suddenly, a fierce wind rips through the area, scattering everything in its path and making it difficult to remain standing.
[SMR result: 143 (Open d100: 133, Bonus: 1)]
The wind knocks you off balance and you fall over!
Roundtime: 20 sec.
The wind then subsides.```Is 20 seconds of RT in line with expectations for a 143 end roll?
limpid geode
#

seems like a lot...I'd expect like 5-8 seconds

night panther
#

Yeah I have my doubts that I'm applying 20 seconds of RT to creatures on a 143 from Call Wind but I'll have to test I guess

acoustic hull
#

Where’s your survival reduction

night panther
#

Oh good question lol. I have 206 survival ranks

acoustic bough
#

Would be cool if the change from that reduction was visible. Though someone would probably complain about the spam!

pulsar forge
#

annnnnd I'm sure it's been addressed already but, is there some kinda free Fix Skill in the works for us? Seems like there have been significant enough changes to warrant one.

vital umbra
#

No fixskill. The pins in this channel are probably the best summary you'll find.

acoustic hull
#

no fixskill, nothing on GST. General sentiment seems to be "||{redacted}||"

pearl creek
#

Players consolidated to a wiki page at one point, but info from Dev is in the pins here. Unclear where it goes from here, if anywhere more at all as a lot was touched, or the expectations around the pending list of issues. Well, players call them issues, I haven't seen them confirmed as issues yet either. Only the bard stuff rolling back

tough flame
#

RIP Diverse Caster Elite Ascension skill. ("Increases Casting Strength for secondary and tertiary spell circles only.")

pulsar forge
#

it is important whenever there is a fundamental change within the realm of "they would've trained different had they known better" to offer an opportunity to make those changes accordingly with amnesty. The only way I see that being done is with a free fixskill.

thin pagoda
#

110 days until the annual free fixskill!

vital umbra
faint cargo
#

I agree, I haven't had any desire to change any of my training for the review and my mains are an empath, sor, wizard.

acoustic hull
#

I have definitely wanted to change mine wrt spell splits and lore

tidal stream
#

I did change my macros to swap in web as one of my big disablers. It's competitive now with my other options, in the right circumstances. Also upped my MnS ranks for it

upper shell
#

My apologies if someone has already mentioned this, but could someone please look at the 912 mana cost when using it on the boat in the Black Swan Castle quest? I know it's a minor issue, but my capped wizard routinely runs out of mana on it now, it's something like 40 mana per cast?

vital umbra
#

I mentioned it a little while ago but haven't checked it since then.

upper shell
#

Thank you! I ran it this past weekend and it's still wonky expensive, mana-wise.

valid comet
#

Question for yall - How has the disabler review changed the way you go about your day to day hunting? A few basic questions, what level, profession, and where you hunt would also be helpful to put changes into context.

royal kite
#

As a capped pure wizard it really hasn't had any impact how I hunt (Confluence, Sanctum, Bandits, HW).

Similarly as a level 65 warmage though I need to experiement more with some of the spells I don't normally use... supposedly they will be somewhat useful now even with poor trainig in those circles (hunts Teras)

No impact for my level 56 warcleric either (also Teras).

valid comet
#

For me, I have all caster classes except for Empath. All are extremely post cap (50M minimum). Hunt everywhere from SOS, OTF, Scatter, HW, Atoll, ME. I haven't found a use case in current game where disablers make sense.

royal kite
fierce saddle
#

on my capped sorc, mainly hunt hinterwilds, I use 715 and 413 quite a bit to be able to double TD drop and then one shot things I couldn't one shot before

On my bard 80's, biggest difference is I almost never use 410 anymore when I used to use a lot before, it's just too risky to not CC things, and better to just sweep multiple targets if I need to knock them down

#

on my cleric, on things that don't immediately break web, web into condemn is heinous, otherwise 212/217 with just 317/335 is good as he doesn't have the same enhancives that my sorc does for CS

fiery wing
#

Capped Empath (15m-ish), probably not optimized for hunting, pretty much exclusively OSA (and DR Arena) - I use 212/217 and Sympathy WAAAAY more now than I did before. I'm also loving 110 now, which lets me use Empathic Assault a lot more than I used to, even on stuff I could Bone Shatter

dusky hatch
#

I stoped using 410, wizard is 912 full time now. Also making heavy use of 217 on my cleric, and 118 on the ranger

coral spade
#

As a warrior, it basically means enemy ewaves cannot hit me

dusky hatch
#

110 also enables my not yet capped empath to contribute to golems in HW 😆

past cloak
#

Way capped rogue, 80 ranks MnE, 1x Spell Aim, 25 Water Lore. 435 is a tactical nuke (especially if I Eviscerate something prior) and I use it constantly now, whereas I never used it before.

night panther
#

Wizard: My wizard was already full time 912 except 410 for drawing out hidden targets but now 912 does that so with sincerity he’ll never cast 410 again. I use 413 to mana leech higher TD targets which is nice.

Bard: 410 sucks now but he still uses it because he doesn’t have any other AOE CC. Review plz. Also it’s been a month since staff said bard songs would be updated as part of the disabler review within a couple of days. I’d like 2 second 1005 though. ¯_(ツ)_/¯

Sorc: 2 second 703 is nice. He already used 715 hex on grizzled/ancient stuff. Haven’t had a need to add 413 in there.

Cleric: 212/217 are great and even though I’m not hurting for CS I use 217 into 335 for maximum carnage. 212 on ancient higher end ascension mobs is helpful for sure. If I bolted I can see 110/118 being pretty handy.

faint cargo
acoustic hull
#

912 and 413 are practically useful now. 909 into 912 is fantastic. 413 into 516 is great. 410 got nixed from the lineup altogether

Mostly around the Hive recently

night panther
#

410 is a two-pack of butt now, how the mighty have fallen

faint cargo
#

I'll be honest, 410 still works perfectly fine in OTF.

acoustic hull
#

It’s just straight up a worse version of 912 for overlevel content

faint cargo
#

Well, someday there will be a carrot to make me care about ASC areas and then I'll have to change I guess

amber fern
#

Capped ranger, mooar 611, no need for alternate debuffs like 607 to save mana, can hunt longer without running low on mana

echo girder
#

Pretty similar at 57 too. More 611, less need to turn on the mana enhancives.

hoary beacon
#

well, primarily on Ouendi (cleric), my hunting style has changed dramatically
way more dynamic

tough flame
#

212/217 and 912 are now on the table and see constant use.

301 and 410 are now off the table and don't see use.

316, 612, 1219, and 1614 cost less, but I still use them exactly as much as before (which is respectively pretty often, pretty often, very rarely, and against almost literally every creature).

413 and 715 cost reduction has little impact on my post-cap sorc who could already sustain mana a long while because of maxed mana controls for 719, but a level 30 sorc I'm helping basically plays like a post-cap sorc because 413+715+719 annihilates things even without lore.

1225 is strongly making me consider maxing Ascension Logic and going to a full 61/40 spells on my monk because that effect is extremely powerful for only 10 mana.

Off-circle spells that theoretically have useful effects but remain CS-based, like 135, 210, 214, and 216, continue to pine for the Diverse Caster Elite Ascension skill one day.

nova violet
#

316 went from never use to use almost every fight, but that's partially because I upgraded to harder content. 312 also comes into play against single hard targets.

110 and 118 went from never use to use very frequently. 110 is useful for any enemy who will shake webs and/or stuns or for enemies I don't want to have fall on me. stagger is a very powerful disabler. 118 is useful for any enemy that I don't immobilize with 316.

217 went from never use to use fairly often, whenever I am dealing with a swarm. also use all the time in KST invasions to tag everything haha. 212 is equally good against single hard targets.

301 is not getting used at all right now but I would still use it against undead enemies who don't shake it if I were fighting them.

limpid geode
#

In my use I have not seen 301 get any worse b/c I feel like anything that may shake it is practically dead already by that time.

dusty rivet
#

Anything you can hit with it reliably you don’t need to. Would work more than fine in non asc areas if you care about that.

nova violet
#

I used 301 often against monstrosities in Sanctum. I don't do that any more because they will just shake it off and they definitely won't be dead yet. 110 has replaced it for that purpose. I suspect I would also use 110 in Reim instead of 301, for the same reason, but I haven't done Reim since the change

limpid geode
#

totally makes sense to use 110 over 301 in cases where the stagger is simply better

but it may still make sense in some cases to 110 -> 301 -> 309 for the +100 bonus while keeping them staggered

#

this is actually what I started doing with fallen crusaders - 301 -> 309 -> 110 ... the 110 basically prevents them from healing...but wouldn't do much on its own since it doesn't frequently knock them down and they aren't stunnable so it doesn't benefit 309 directly

low mango
#

Warpath, obviously not an optimal pure build but I've made it work through level 76 so far. 118 went from a useful but expensive/unreliable spell to a standard, consistent part of my rotation. 212/217 went from "what do these spells do, again?" to something I actually use several times a hunt. Ditto for 110, which has new use for creatures immune to web.

royal kite
#

My wife runs her level 71 Cleric with my warrior. She was having mana issues prior to the disabler review. Now post-review (and possibly some suggestions she saw on thoughtnet) she doesn't appear to have mana issues any longer. We go all the way through REIM without needing to stop where before we'd make 1 or 2 rest stops just for mana.

pseudo fractal
#

My kill spells are all the same on my cleric but I use more spells now in a QOL way previously I never used 118 or 110 now I will on somethings just to make my life easier, same with 212/217 not that I need it but just for the small boost.

coral spade
#

The mana savings seems the actual best improvement. I know several clerics who say that. Im assuming thats true across the board

thin pagoda
low mango
fiery wing
#

even capped, the mana savings is huge (though I have a feeling I have a fair bit less mana than other Empaths at my exp level). And having 110 using SMR is a huge upgrade, to be honest - it feels like a lot less failure, and if it does fail, it's not a big deal.

steep mirage
#

We still have Paladin issues across the board with the updated spells?

pearl creek
#

the points on Tikba's list have not changed at all, still using old mana costs and SMR spells are still less likely to land when cast via paladin bonded weapon.

night panther
#

How's this looking?

echo aurora
#

I do not think mind jolt is capping stuns at 30s.

humble ore
#

Hunting mostly the same as ranger, mana a pinch better, which is helpful bc I could run out pretty easily before and just be stuck with sword. I think this all makes a legit druid ranger more of a real possibility, which is aces (though not my build or direction). Want to mix in unbalance more now that it's more effective, but haven't fully worked it in there yet beyond playing around.

echo girder
#

Where would you use unbalance rather than moonbeam or weed? I guess there might be some critters out there with moonbeam immunity, but I haven't met them yet. I've thought about it, but I don't see an advantage to unbalance unless a critter is immune to those ranger circle disablers.

echo aurora
#

2 targets

humble ore
#

But I dunno, when I meet like the Reim emperor it's like "oh, that's not working, let's try unbalance or webs or whatever solves the normal go-tos not working," so happy to work unbalance in there as like a "sixth man that can put some points on the board"

dusky hatch
humble ore
#

Yeah, I mean, it always has helped, I just haven't stopped to see if I still need to

echo girder
nova violet
#

Reim is an example of where I’d use 110 also because it staggers and Reim enemies shake immobilize

#

They are the ones with moonbeam immunity haha

echo girder
#

Is that all Reim, or only when you get close enough to cap?

dusky hatch
echo girder
#

10% chance for me, but I can see it would have attraction for that with a lot more lore

humble ore
#

Yeah, I'd like to work it in a bit more, the ranger toolkit of spells I actually use fairly often is like "all of em," so would hate to leave it there all alone and unused

dusky hatch
#

Rangers are for sure overloaded with CC options, they can't all be the best choice all the time 😆

#

I'm not opposed to throwing in a suboptimal choice periodically just for fun though. Is 611+609 the best use of mana? Hardly ever, but it's fun!

echo girder
#

It seemed like a pretty good combo for squishy flyers. Best option for winged vipers I've come up with so far.

echo aurora
elder mist
#

Have we heard anything about Stone Fist getting looked at for the review? I'd love it if the initial cast could drop to 5 mana since that's all disabler, no damage. And I'd be fine with keeping the additional mana costs for the damaging actions.

acoustic hull
#

Nah it got passed over

limpid geode
# 
[SMR result: 125 (Open d100: 85)]
The wind knocks you off balance and you fall over!
Roundtime: 20 sec.
The wind then subsides.```
Sure seems like a ridiculous amount of RT for a 125.
night panther
#

Yeah I experienced that too. Seems off

coral spade
#

100% can confirm thats basically each time

pearl creek
#

Has there been any update or comment on bard songs or infusing in a paladin bonded weapon?

unreal matrix
# limpid geode ```A gust of wind tugs at your sleeves. Suddenly, a fierce wind rips through th...

No. That seems right considering I've had creature maneuvers kill me with a 101 endroll before. Nothing more fun when out hunting and a creature drops you with a 101 endroll. You could get the same skill and same endroll on a creature and they laugh it off. Players get hit with it and they drop dead. It's the one thing I greatly dislike about the SMR system. I've complained about these results before and even bugged them in game because they seem broken, but nothing was ever done about them so I guess it's "working as intended".

dusky hatch
# 
[SMR result: 123 (Open d100: 93, Bonus: 1)]
The wind knocks you off balance and you fall over!
Roundtime: 7 sec.

That's my wizard casting at my ranger, Survival...........................| 305 205

#

Also it really did not want me to test lol. What are the odds of this many negative rolls in my first 6 tests:

[SMR result: -34 (Open d100: -58, Bonus: 1)]
[SMR result: 98 (Open d100: 75, Bonus: 1)]
[SMR result: 109 (Open d100: 85, Bonus: 1)]
[SMR result: -21 (Open d100: -50, Bonus: 1)]
[SMR result: -37 (Open d100: -66, Bonus: 1)]```
covert pewter
plain wedge
#

Was 214 being changed, or staying the same?

dusky hatch
#

The mana cost dropped

limpid geode
#

I am being hopeful and assuming it's not complete yet, since it's not really usable at any mana when hunting like-level.

plain wedge
#

Yeah, I was able to bind something my level, but it required super high roll and felt pretty worthless.

oblique coral
#

Did sheer fear get affected by disabler review? I am seeing a big uptick in getting horrified in HW but it might just be bad luck

coral spade
#

Shouldnt be luck at all. Its a pure level check. You can get some level 114+ valravns and 115+ disirs

fringe orchid
#

@nova violet Can we get a status update on the Bard changes that were rolled back due to bugs?

night panther
echo aurora
# 
A crackling whip of energy lashes out at you!
  CS: +448 - TD: +365 + CvA: +5 + d86: +74 == +162
  Warding failed!
   ... 23 points of damage!
   Blow to the chest takes your breath away.
   You are stunned for 9 rounds!
The residual psychic energy from the attack surrounds you.``` ... ```It seems you have died, my friend.  Although you cannot do anything, you are keenly aware of what is going on around you...```
#

And... the one benefit of the disabler review I polyanishly thought was being addressed continues to just wreck me.

covert pewter
#

That isn't a disabler.

echo aurora
#

While I understand that 1210 is a disabler that was reviewed and updated per the disabler review, I do also understand now that staff never intended to cap stuns resulting from the physical portion of 1210 at 30s.

#

But, it still continues to wreck me.

pine charm
#

I concur...it is wrecking Leff in that posted example

echo aurora
#

Rumor has it he is still stunned to this day.

fringe orchid
# covert pewter That isn't a disabler.

A spell is cast, the result of the spell cast disables a player for up to greater than 30 seconds.

Even though it's not a disabler, somehow, could it be evaluated for review and limited to 30s like every other spell that disables a player, with a limit of 30 seconds.

fierce forge
#

is there a place where I can see the disabler review notes?

fringe orchid
fierce forge
#

thank you

limpid geode
# 
With an indolent gesture, you languidly trace the rune for Elemental Saturation in the air.
Your spell is ready.
You gesture at an ancient huge lightning elemental.
Your glowbark staff glows intensely with a verdant light!
A dark shadow passes over an ancient huge lightning elemental.
Cast Roundtime 2 Seconds.```
Is acuity actually able to help - with the +10 level auto success or something? Or is it being wasted?
humble moth
#

I'd throw a bug on the item in game too to help track that one

fierce saddle
#

Acuity flares can happen on any spell cast, so not a bug, happens with dispel, happened with 715 before there were other auto success spells. So for that cast you have increased cs and as and smr bonus, but if your spell doesn't use those then yeah it's just kinda wasted.

glacial fern
#

Any updates on bard songs or paladin spells infused in weapons?

upper shell
#

Hey, just a note, I know this is probably small fry, but Call Wind on the boat in Black Swan Castle is still mucho mana. 32 per cast for my lvl 35 wizard.

acoustic hull
#

I wonder what’s going on there

upper shell
#

I figure it's just so niche no one really looks at it.

keen cape
#

The mana cost in a specific quest area isn't likely going to be seen by the person who would fix it here in the Spell Disabler Review. It likely will need a bug report in the room(s) that is occurs so it goes to the right person.

#

If it isn't intended.

calm rock
#

Any updates on bard and paladin issues reported in December?

clever plank
#

any chance of giving 1207 an area effect for more mana?

fringe orchid
clever plank
#

1219 is, was there any mention on it? Not that it does anything where I hunt. CS not being good enough

echo aurora
#

I am still getting mind jolts well in excess of 30s.

calm rock
#

Any chance we could get an update on the issues that have been outstanding since December?

night panther
#

Probably not during DR but I would also love an update on that stuff.

pearl creek
#

At this point I think we assume it was a surprise technical issue not discovered during all the qa testing. A touch point on it would be appreciated to set some expectations though.

steep mirage
#

I think it's ridiculous that we haven't even seen an acknowledgement that it's been heard or confirmation the paladin issues are on purpose

fringe orchid
pearl creek
#

Tikba had it in the pinned post, but the two off the top of my head are: Infusing in bonded weapons uses the old mana cost. SMR spells infused are less likely to land vs open casting them.

echo aurora
#

Could we please also have someone confirm whether the disabler review made alterations (intended or otherwise) on 610, to make it less effective. We rangers are a cordial bit, but…

#rangers message

steep mirage
#

I'll write the statement to fix this. Just copy paste:

We are looking into it. We know it's an issue.

Or

it's intended. We won't be reviewing it

echo aurora
wanton canyon
#

used to be that when you cast elemental dispel (417) at an open void it would be 0 sec RT. please consider re-implenting that 🙂

limpid geode
# 
Your spell is ready.
You gesture at a fallen crusader.
Your glowbark staff glows intensely with a verdant light!
Bands of spectral mist ripple and surge beneath a fallen crusader!
[SMR result: 173 (Open d100: -65, Bonus: 120)]
   ... 15 points of damage!
   The fallen crusader fades for a second as the blow passes through the chest.
   It is knocked to the ground!

The spectral mist suddenly shifts to a fallen crusader!
Bands of spectral mist ripple and surge beneath a fallen crusader!
[SMR result: 230 (Open d100: 92, Bonus: 18)]
   ... 15 points of damage!
   The fallen crusader fades for a second as the blow passes through the chest.
   It is knocked to the ground!

 ** Numerous sigils along your glowbark staff abruptly flare to brilliance!  Coruscating crimson energy surges from each, twining into an echo of your last spell... **

Bands of spectral mist ripple and surge beneath a fallen crusader!
[SMR result: 306 (Open d100: 66, Bonus: 121)]
   ... 25 points of damage!
   Quick strike to the right leg!
   The fallen crusader makes no bones about it.

The spectral mist suddenly shifts to a fallen crusader!
Bands of spectral mist ripple and surge beneath a fallen crusader!
[SMR result: 349 (Open d100: 190, Bonus: 39)]
   ... 20 points of damage!
   A fine strike pins the right leg for an instant.
   The fallen crusader looks miffed.

 ** Necrotic energy from your glowbark staff overflows into you! **

   You feel energized!

 ** Your glowbark staff bursts alight with leaping tongues of holy fire! **
   Consumed by the hallowed flames, a fallen crusader is ravaged for 98 points of damage!
   ... 1 point of damage!
   Quick strike to the face!
   Just nicked an eyelid!
You feel the unnatural surge of necrotic power wane away.
Cast Roundtime 2 Seconds.```
The new Unbalance.
nova violet
#

for me SMR unbalance with stagger is one of the biggest wins from the review

#

spirit bash

thin pagoda
#

Made me get a rank of crowd press just to lock up shield bashers in Reim. Can't hammerfist, but I can still cast unbalance!

coral spade
#

So, while I know its easier not to provide answers...and sometimes the answer is that there ARE no answers....would it be possible to have a brief staff statement on the situation regarding this review, the pause bards were put on and the many paladin issues that were mentioned?

If the answer is, we don't have a plan or a timeline, that would at least let people know they are being heard.

oblique coral
acoustic hull
#

if you were the one doing the review, what's the most likely reason you would decide to release no statement or comment?

coral spade
#

I prefer to think like a customer and note that in the context of a pay event with expensive cash offerings, something like this should be commented upon out of good faith.

fringe orchid
thin pagoda
fickle maple
echo aurora
#

How infuriating.

#

Any other secret nerfs we should know about now?

#

In case anyone is wondering, here’s the after the fact announcement that dev just shared (but, you know, not in the thread about disablers). #gamemaster-endnotes message

coral spade
#

Thats. Pretty something

echo aurora
#

You know, after #rangers figured it out. And then they couldn’t even be bothered to respond to the comments, questions, and testing. Just an after the fact, announcement, enjoy your nerf.

coral spade
#

I think its well due for a formal update on this project.

tough flame
#

Is that supposed to be referring to Tangleweed (the real 610) or Spike Thorn (which is 616)?

echo aurora
#

610

#

Here’s Ralkean’s great testing data: #rangers message where he sussed it out and figured it out

glacial fern
#

oh so now not only does this player base expect updates to be timely, they also expect them to be comprehensible too? so entitled /s

coral spade
#

It might be suggested that going straight to live has created challenges that could have perhaps been avoided

tough flame
#

I only cast 610 for AS, but the 611 nerf will hurt severely. Might make me move to a more CS-optimized split, but that aside, it was nice for there to be one reliable magic-based disabler in the game.

Edit: At a post-cap level, specifically. Tons of disablers are reliable pre-cap.

glacial fern
echo aurora
#

This review was hasty, poorly thought out, lacked creativity, and has not generally improved game play. Add this in, and I’m just upset and disappointed.

coral spade
tough flame
#

In all fairness, I'll acknowledge that I might have a high standard for what constitutes reliability. Let me hop on the test server real quick to illustrate...

coral spade
#

We don't really know what the standard is meant to be though. Its one of the suggestions that have been made many times. What AS is suggested, what Bolt/Ranged AS. What CS. What sort of % of SMR success whould we expect at 5+ levels above 100. Or 10+ levels, etc

acoustic hull
#

you should just know

fierce saddle
echo aurora
#

Now I’m just waiting to be sold some smr improving items next DR to cap it all off:

tough flame
fierce saddle
#

I mean, yeah I use it all the time on my ranger

dusky hatch
#

611 is the 1030 of single target disables 😬

fierce saddle
#

ehhh, 717 and 1030 are the 1030 of single target disables, cause dead = best disable 🙂

nova violet
#

If 611 is also giving you the same lore bonus as 610 then it probably will lose effectiveness haha

humble moth
#

Also, 607 is still there for a guaranteed SMR debuff

echo aurora
#

No. They nerfed 607 too.

fierce saddle
coral spade
#

Whether or not something should or shouldn't be nerfed, having it nerfed should probably have been something that was very transparent. I'm not sure any players expected the Spell Disabler review to be a rebalancing of existing spells that perform well and putting them into some unknown framework

echo aurora
nova violet
#

If you are not 1x ranger spells or over and don’t have lore you will probably get more effective yes

fierce saddle
#

so yeah, for my baby ranger this'll be a buff, got it so 611 will be even better than what it is for me now, awesome

echo aurora
#

What in the name of this green earth did these changes have to do with the articulated stated goals.

humble moth
#

I'm looking at you, 709

tough flame
# 
[SSR result: 138 (Open d100: 53)]
A flayed gigas disciple looks at you in utter terror! 
Roundtime: 3 sec.```
I need to roll a 16 to hit: reliable.
```Ethereal white ribbons shimmer into being and swiftly twist and twirl in the air, dancing almost playfully around you.
Your spell is ready.
You gesture.
  CS: +515 - TD: +496 + CvA: +19 + d100: +61 == +99
  Warded off!
A flayed gigas disciple does not react.
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.```
I need a 63 to hit (and would still need a 50 to hit even if I had max Ascension Wisdom--and would still need a 30 to hit even if I had max Ascension Wisdom **and** max enhancive Wisdom): not reliable.
```With a flick of your wrist, opalescent leaves begin swirling around you in a shimmering breeze as you recite the words for Moonbeam...
Your spell is ready.
You gesture at a flayed gigas disciple.
Tapping the moons above, you draw down a shaft of coruscating moonlight and bathe a flayed gigas disciple in its lucent glow.
[SMR result: 272 (Open d100: 161)]
A flayed gigas disciple is caught fast, the light of the moon arresting his movements.```
I could hit on a -10: **super** reliable.

Now, admittedly Moonbeam is pretty busted in its current form, as Kaetel's suggesting, but I'd at least like magic to be on the level of Carn's Cry. And this is the only spell I can think of that has been, at least so far. Next closest would maybe be Call Wind.
echo aurora
#

And then dev apparently can’t even be bothered to come in and explain why they did what they did.

oblique coral
#

Weed mages dont need any gear or enhancives, that doesn't align with pay event planning! Tactical nuke time

echo aurora
#

Can one of the envoys please give me a preemptive time out.

fierce saddle
#

I mean it sounded like they buffed beyond what was intended, so they are trying to make it's effectiveness like it was before the spell review?

Estild's post seems fairly clear on that?

tough flame
#

Moonbeam was that strong since it was created.

pearl creek
#

I remember fetish masters getting it, that was fun

amber fern
humble moth
fierce saddle
oblique coral
#

Wait is this something that already happened or is going to happen for 611? I want to test on my ranger

fierce saddle
#

has happened to 610, going to happen to 611 from the dev post

dusky hatch
echo aurora
pearl creek
#

Trying to scale into ascension areas and use setups seems like it got more difficult with this review. The effects might be more standardized to sometimes stick, but it’s still a difficult feeling to reconcile with the goals.

tough flame
coral spade
nova violet
#

Yeah I think estild is saying moonbeam was not updated and will now be updated, so if 610 got significantly worse for you I would expect 611 to also get worse, but not as much

humble moth
#

Now we all need to train points into the +1 level auto success ascension skill...

coral spade
#

The immediate reaction I have to something like this is...what else was tweeked without discussion? What else is now weaker?

hazy viper
#

You just need to multi account with a CS monk and have them mindwipe everything for you.

fierce saddle
#

I use 413 a lot in hinterwilds, it rarely fails

tough flame
#

I guess this'll be easy enough to measure. I'll just go grab a sample of 100 or so 611 casts against fresh bandits now, before it's been updated, and then wait for the update and get another sample of 100.

humble moth
coral spade
# humble moth Everything except warriors?

True. Spell Disabler review made me stronger. Go figure? I guess I was playing galaxy brain chess for pushing for this so hard for the last year+. Level 114 angargeists need an open roll to hit me with an ewave. I bugged it. Was told working as intended

pearl creek
fierce saddle
#

I use it against disir and gigas disciples only

echo aurora
pearl creek
coral spade
#

The results of a spell shared by so many professions probably are going to have very different outcomes

fierce saddle
#

oh and oozes and underswarmers, because 715 +413 and I can 100% 717 oozes which is way better than any other way of killing, same with 715 +413 and 719 on underswarmers

rotund nest
#

413 is great on angry ghosts

fierce saddle
#

I swear it gets affected by acuity in weird ways, like acuity will proc on it and it like always succeeds, although that could be a bug too or complete confirmation bias

echo aurora
# echo aurora

610/611/607 changes? Did they meet goal one. Nope. Goal two: absolutely not. Goal three nope. Goal four: nope.

I’m disappointed the disabler review was heralded as a dev priority, as it took dev resources and time from other projects.

humble moth
#

I'm still wondering why they preach spell aiming. Bolts suck, and are likely THE worst attack form. I hope there's some increased benefit planned for training in spell aiming and not just a way to siphon other pures/semis TP to be viable with spells

tough flame
#

I still like the disabler review overall, with the prime example being that low level sorcs were the most boring thing ever to me and now they feel like powerhouses. I assume that other lower end professions now get much more use out of their toolkits too.

That said, other than switching from 410 to 912 and from 301 to 217, the capped experience is basically the same as ever but just costs less mana.

coral spade
#

The major win of the review was mana costs

heady bramble
#

As someone who hasn't played or paid attention to his sorcerer in.. probably a decade, what's notably different about the low-level experience?

fierce saddle
#

I would take a bit of time and breath, and yes the spell disabler review has been very disapointed and many nerfs to many classes, I'm sure if the sorcerer code didn't try to eat GMs that touched it, that 709 woulda been updated to be about the same as 912 as well.

The review definitely made leveling pures more interesting, but nerfed a lot of stuff and didn't really address much for hinterwilds/ascension hunting.

humble moth
#

Yeah, I'm expecting the next comment to be 709 moved to be in line with 912 and leveraging spell aiming

night panther
#

Bard stuff was (paraphrasing) “a couple of days” away when it got rolled back and we have had zero info or acknowledgment since

fierce saddle
tough flame
#

Yeah, 717 and 719 are astonishingly usable even at low levels when you can toss a 413+715 combo out.
But even when not using those, channeled 705 is brutal on creatures that end up with like no TD.

pearl creek
fierce saddle
echo aurora
#

There are two options: (1) this was announced because players found it; and we’re discussing it, and it was known and purposely kept a secret by dev; or (2) it was not known, or unintentionally not shared.

Neither option seems ok to me, given it impacts a classes core functionality. And a class that has been generally perceived as being the model class (with hopes other class reviews would improve to come into line with). Either way, not cool.

humble moth
fierce saddle
#

it could be 353 though!

coral spade
#

On the other hand, when I talk to people who are struggling in post cap and asc content, or simply point out failings in their class designs, the general response i get is something like 'I geared around it'. Which means....I spent real world $$ to get around the game design problems. I think thats a real problem

humble moth
#

I already have one of the service books. I'm not whale enough for 353

fringe orchid
# tough flame I still like the disabler review overall, with the prime example being that low ...

I agree with the second part. I also switched from 410 to 912, and utilize 212/217 consistently now that it's fast and cheap.

I'm not sure how much of this Spell Disabler review was actually thought out and and carefully planned. It doesn't appear to be much of it.

Ptolemy: I spent real world $$ to get around the game design problems. I think thats a real problem

Maybe that's the goal, lol

coral spade
#

Going totally silent on an unfinished review of the spell system in the middle of a pay event just looks awful. It doesn't mean there is a casual effect, but it really doesn't help remove the specter of it

echo aurora
#

I don’t know about you all, but I spend money when I’m having fun. When I’m irritated, the game play is worse, I don’t want to spend money.

humble moth
#

I'm just over here playing flarestone...

coral spade
#

You geared around it!

humble moth
#

My goal is 14!

coral spade
#

I'm close to that. But I've got two weapons

#

I don't know. I cannot fathom the same group of folks putting unlimited death ore on a shelf in a shop for $$ saying there is a balance issue with an overperforming spell. I'll never quite get it

echo aurora
#

Someone please put Ptolemy on staff.

coral spade
#

LOL - Please. Someone dont

solid cosmos
#

Cash fixes a lot of problems, amazingly enough.

humble moth
tough flame
#

I mean... agree with it or not, I think they've pretty thoroughly explained why they don't regard pay event items as problematic to balance.

(As opposed to, say, something like naginatas where we have absolutely no idea why they get extra surcharges on so many things.)

coral spade
faint cargo
#

I do think there's a lot of self inflicted pain in GS, in that communication would alleviate so many actual/percieved problems

oblique coral
#

I wouldnt be surprised if a rule of thumb is player spells should be 60-70% effective in ascension areas with the "privilege" of the other ~30% being bridged by event gear....

fierce saddle
analog nexus
humble moth
#

Based on the last SoE, you've basically conditioned them to no longer share anything, otherwise you'll all harp on DI, Rogue services, or other things that got depriorized, or fell off due to resourcing, etc. I mean, it's best not to communicate anymore

coral spade
tough flame
faint cargo
coral spade
echo aurora
humble moth
pearl creek
fringe orchid
#

No. A lack of follow through led to disappointment.

The problem wasn't communication. The problem was unfinished product.

fierce saddle
tough flame
#

I'm mostly with Whirlin. Said yesterday that this community is its own worst enemy at times.

I wouldn't tell players anything about anything if it were up to me. We literally even have some players hoping that one day the bard review is just secretly completed and released with no advance notice because they believe that's the only way it could get completed.

coral spade
humble moth
fringe orchid
faint cargo
night panther
#

This isn’t a project or two being delayed. We went very nearly the entirety of 2023 with zero releases. And now the one that came in as a buzzer beater is unfinished, not being discussed, and in fact having nerf announcements dropped quietly in an announcement folder. By any metric you can imagine, this is being poorly handled

fierce saddle
#

but yeah we have Envoys to pass along stuff to know that it gets heard, we can't expect answers on stuff anymore just due to actions in the past

faint cargo
echo aurora
coral spade
#

To be fair to the staff's various lanes....I think the World team has done a very good job with communication, moving stories forward, gathering feedback and bringing the world to life. Communication there has not been a negative at all.

night panther
oblique coral
#

Leff setting himself up for a redemption arc in late 2024

fierce saddle
humble moth
#

2023 also lost half of simutronics back office staff and production support in alignment with still front acquisition streamlining.

coral spade
echo aurora
#

This is the end of act 2, my fall from grace, for sure.

fringe orchid
humble moth
#

Yeah, it sucks

#

Alastir probably has a .68 batting average over there. Not quite enough to be nice, but is typically on point with some stuff

echo aurora
#

So, rangers, legitimately in the best place, great community, super happy… look at rangers all the other classes said.

So, what’s the strategy, make their core spell functionality worse, but hide it, don’t communicate about it until after the fact.

coral spade
#

Alastir is just Paul O'Neill. Throws his bat after hitting a homerun. Everyone doesn't know if to jeer or cheer

faint cargo
pine charm
fierce saddle
# coral spade Its hard to show a changelog and ask people to be happy when their entire class ...

my class has been in limbo for nearly as long as paladins, no I understand quite perfectly, it just is what it is, it takes a year+ to train devs on this system, there isn't a way to "fix" that issue it's like teaching someone fortran or something. We have pretty unreasonable expectations given one year of high development, granted that was the year many of us came back to the game, but it was obviously a fluke in the matrix.

coral spade
#

In sincere honestly, I don't know what relationship staff wants the players to express. If we are sort of all close friends and its a team effort to keep the old girl afloat, then you can't be upset when players look at $500 transmutes with disgust. If we are supposed to be customers, then you can't expect players to treat their $500 a year sub fee like its a tip at a restaurant.

pearl creek
night panther
#

When it’s $500 transmute time we are customers when we are upset at lack of communication or progress we have to think about feelings

pine charm
coral spade
fierce saddle
#

So, ummm, what other game do you play that you get even as much feedback as we currently get from game staff?

pine charm
coral spade
#

Other games don't ask me to expect delays with no updates. They don't ask me for a $500 a year sub and then ask fore much much more. They release regular and massive updates on youtube, through partnered creators, regular patches, etc.

heady bramble
#

So you guys want patch notes, right.. and not, like, devs clearing all changes with you on a personal "close friends" level, right?

oblique coral
#

It's stuff like some new player was having trouble with his spore staff and we had to tell him to train survival which there is nothing listed anywhere about that in the wiki or in the shop

coral spade
humble moth
#

Who can update the wiki?

pine charm
#

The person making money?

fierce saddle
#

uhhh generally things like that are done by players in other games

coral spade
#

Every other game has the basics of their gameplay documented. Lets not play that game. Dispel flares were sold for years with literally NO documentation available anywhere.

fringe orchid
#

If I were spending thousands and thousands of dollars, I would expect more feedback from the games development team. Even Free LoL prompts me for feedback surveys on decisions ...

Pretty much everything else I play, is free. So my expectations are little to non-existent there.

faint cargo
pine charm
#

Vaemyr I have never gone to another p2w game where I had to hunt for the elements needed for my pay to win gear to work....that's just.....not how it works anywhere

humble moth
#

Alariel probably won't yell at you anymore if you edit it poorly (was that her name... Memory is fuzzy)

oblique coral
coral spade
fierce saddle
oblique coral
echo aurora
#

How about this — I don’t play other games. I don’t have anything else to compare it to. But, I do know I spend more on a text based game from the 90s than my wife would like.

coral spade
fierce saddle
#

anyway this all is WAY off topic

oblique coral
#

Also, if genshin makes a bad dev move that could cost the company millions if players get hyper mad

fringe orchid
keen cape
#

regarding the wiki stuff. it is up to the GM who made the item to make the wiki page for it, which is likely why you don't see it up right away. some of us aren't as well versed in wiki stuff. players are able to edit the pages, and most wiki related stuff was added by players at some point.

#

some players are nice enough to fill in some blanks.

pine charm
fierce saddle
#

there is 1 simutronics employee and then a couple dozen contractors that do this game for us, you guys all just need to seriously chill out on a lot of this stuff

coral spade
#

If I make a purchase on a player's wiki information and that information is wrong, who is responsible? That really isn't a great solution.

oblique coral
keen cape
#

use the in-game information if you don't want to rely on the wiki.

#

if the in-game information isn't enough to go on, I would probably ask in Discord

echo aurora
#

Guys, if you have questions, ask on LNeT it’s friendlier than discord most days now.

analog nexus
#

I don't think you can compare what we have with GS with any other live service, especially not something like Genshin. However, there are some standards that should be met. The response of "how dare you expect something" in exchange for what people are spending money on, is frankly, ridiculous.

oblique coral
nova violet
fierce saddle
#

whatever I'm done, yall can just continue to bash people into the void, if you actually think that's going to help and get responses to things it is hilarious, GL

oblique coral
#

Someone send Leff a nice upbeat mail in game, maybe a postcard

pine charm
#

I think LNET is generally helpful....it has and can be toxic of course.....but God knows Discord can be as well.

humble moth
analog nexus
#

I think it's very unrealistic to expect devs or anyone to keep up with a discord server to address all questions too so 🤷‍♂️

random zealot
#

Or to want to given the temp

humble moth
#

Also, if folks are being Lnet worthy, use the report function. I don't want to ban folks unilaterally if I perceive feelings are hurt.

heady bramble
#

Discord was a mistake. - Hayao Miyazaki

night panther
analog nexus
#

Everyone take a breather. GMs are doing their best given what I consider impossible circumstances. Players just want clarity. Also understandable.

oblique coral
#

We just doing what is was intended:
Discord (definition) - disagreement between people.

humble moth
#

I thought this was just a MyLittlePony fan app

coral spade
#

Thats RW

fringe orchid
#

I thought we had Envoys so that GMs don't have to read the discord anymore.

@humble moth get to work mister!

humble moth
#

I'm reporting every word worth repeating

fringe orchid
#

Whirlins report:

Nothing worth mentioning.

humble moth
#

No, rangers are upset

echo aurora
#

Also, maybe not rangers. Maybe just Leff.

humble moth
#

Leff has a big mad

fringe orchid
#

Report update:
The treehuggers are not hugging the trees currently.

Send tiny, furry creatures.

coral spade
#

New idea for DR. Community spending goals. Spend X Bloodscript, get a dev update

echo aurora
#

Ralkean is the reasonable, even keeled spokesperson for the issue. Leff is flying off the handle and his two thumbs on mobile discord are getting sore.

humble moth
humble moth
coral spade
#

My class is Sicilian. Does not compute. When do we get cannolis in game?

faint cargo
heady bramble
echo aurora
#

I said this in #rangers, but as for method of communication, maybe gently suggest not sending out a nerf update hidden in a GM endnotes thread.

Mestys is beloved and well regarded by rangers. Have Mestys bring us the news, and tell us why it needed to be done, and why it’s important for the game.

coral spade
#

We have raviolli....

humble moth
#

There's a LOT of channels and stuff though. Even we envoys try to divide and conquer and miss stuff. Especially that whole RP stuff. Tikba does that. I hope... I don't touch that unless folks report.

oblique coral
#

I recently got to work with some client experience data from my company and literally these people curse and compare our service to "straight butt" right in the text feedback slot.....

heady bramble
#

Straight butt, as opposed to butt on the rocks, or butt and tonic

faint cargo
#

Look....it's still better then Comcast, so.

nova violet
#

I mean how good is your service

fringe orchid
#

Apparently not good at all

oblique coral
#

It doesnt matter how good your service is, someone will always complain (simu had that quote on their wall probably)

humble moth
#

Depending on your preferences, either amazing, or terrible

nova violet
#

it sucks that there was a nerf that wasn’t clear in the notes, I think we can all agree on that

echo aurora
nova violet
#

I suggested this in the ranger channel but I would mostly like to know how this is affecting ranger hunting

#

If it is making it so you can’t hunt in the hinterwilds when you could before, or whatever, that is the feedback we can push up more productively

dusky hatch
#

Seemingly not, since nobody really noticed until recently

nova violet
#

I can say “people are super mad” but I’ll be real with you, they already know

faint cargo
#

I just shoot stuff with my ranger, so I don't know

echo aurora
#

That’s hard to say. That’s like saying, how does 6% spell hinderance versus 3% affect you. This is a game of numbers over time.

fringe orchid
#

The 38 level difference in effect is pretty big, especially in HW.

coral spade
#

I'd expect anything that creates an effective level difference is likely to have an impact in ASC areas. But i'm talking straight from the backside on that

nova violet
#

I agree that losing 30 bonus sounds like it would make a big difference but I also agree that in practice it took a dedicated number cruncher to identify that the bonus had changed

pine charm
#

It's going to effect leveling rangers and normal build rangers more.than MA rangers like Kaetel or odd builds like me

echo aurora
dusky hatch
#

The announcement isn’t a new change, which is really the crux of the issue. If the impact was significant it would’ve been very obvious, very early on. The circumstances by which the information is coming out is the bigger issue, in my estimation

pine charm
#

Saying it wasn't noticeable isn't accurate.....we NOTICED and tested....in this game we chalk a lot up to RNG

echo aurora
#

I quit using 607 because of the nerf.

nova violet
#

Which is to say, 1x or more ranger base and a lot of lore

pine charm
#

Ok

dusky hatch
#

Noticed it after a fairly significant time frame, with lots of data. I’m not suggesting it has no impact of course - it’s a nerf no doubt. But it isn’t as dramatic as the 410 changes, which basically went to “unusable” status in most people’s books

echo aurora
#

Tikba; let me counter. Which points/goals of the disabler review do the changes help promote? How does this improve game play?

#

In a vacuum, I know I got worse. And nothing got “more fun.”

#

In a world of meh, where we are constantly told of competing interests for dev work and skill, what was the point of this?

humble moth
#

Helps establish some more consistent mechanics that can be leveraged universally depending on need, observations, growth, etc. by aligning 607, 413, etc to all function the same with the guaranteed to hit level range and common approach level versus level difference, it's a single lever that can be pulled, adjusted, and refined or offered growth opportunities consistently.

dusky hatch
#

This is why the bard review got killed

nova violet
#

I’m not sure what you are countering here

#

Countering implies I have propounded a thesis

night panther
#

We can’t even get a handful of bard spells updated for this review in over two months since the rollback, I don’t think they could undertake a bard review if they wanted to

humble ore
#

Can I get my old spells in the wheelbarrow if I pay 😝

echo aurora
echo aurora
humble ore
#

I don't even understand how hard I'll probably be hit yet, I'm sure I'll just be gimped and just silently deal with it as always with gimping the number one powerhouse class in the game that all serious loot lords and murder hobos pick

nova violet
fringe orchid
humble moth
coral spade
#

is the issue really if it is having a big or small effect? Or is the issue that it was not communicated, when the entire point of the SoE was to acknowledge that the playerbase values communication?

And that there are many other non communicated outstanding issues of the review?

pine charm
#

This should have been announced not discovered by the player base
.....but moving on, lessons learned ect ect ect....

heady bramble
fringe orchid
humble moth
tough flame
#

For the record, despite saying that I expect the 611 change to feel like a nerf and despite saying that I expect it to hurt, I don't have a strong enough opinion about it to want any extra time spent on getting it "right" vs. the myriad other things they could be working on instead.

humble ore
#

The number crunchers already saw 610 underperforming, I was just talking with someone about it the other day. C'est la vie I guess, we'll see how 611 goes, not excited!

oblique coral
#

Atleast we got our voice out there BEFORE the 611 changes. Hats off the math guys who sniffed this out

coral spade
dusky hatch
pine charm
#

Yes the idea was we would balance up....we spend 6 seconds disabling a single target it damn well should work most of the time.

heady bramble
#

Same. I wanted to let him cook

echo aurora
coral spade
#

LIke....it took a mad scramble to break, fix, rebreak and refix ewave. And now where it sits means my 2x dodging warrior in full plate can't get hit by it by a creature that is 114th level and other classes have abandoned it.....why even adjust this spell at all beyond mana cost?

fringe orchid
#

I miss the way SMR used to work

dusky hatch
echo aurora
heady bramble
#

I can only speak from a mid-level alt perspective. But I ~~abused ~~used 611 as a go-to because it was effectively guaranteed to land

humble moth
#

Must be nice. I would need to 413 to reduce TD, ward CS 512 to reduce SMR, land SMR 912, then it'll be stanced down and ready to be attacked....

dusky hatch
#

Like I get being mad about nerfs, they always sting. But if it still works at least a majority of the time then I’ll save my rage points for something better.

echo aurora
humble moth
#

That's post review

pine charm
humble ore
echo aurora
coral spade
#

is the review done?

humble moth
#

Now, one thing that I'm hearing as valid feedback is that if 610 margins are reduced, that could materially negatively impact AS gains from 610, which we don't believe was intended.

#

However, I know I always stack a 607 before my 610 for AS to maximize the gains

humble ore
#

What ranger needs AS? 😜

echo aurora
#

You’re saying the intent was/is to make 610 less effective as a disabler?

dusky hatch
#

I don’t think rangers were really at the forefront of the goals for the review TBH. The main targets, from my understanding, was the unusable secondary circle spells that literally couldn’t succeed with traditional training, as well as warding setups because of their challenges in ascension zones

humble ore
#

I jest, my cap AS has been passed by many alts far from cap

pine charm
echo aurora
#

I just want to make sure that what is being said behind the curtain is said in front of the curtain. And it’s very possible this is not what was/is being said. So trying to overtly clarify.

humble moth
#

I dunno, they don't know how to pronounce words over there. You don't want to hear that.

#

Have you heard how that guy pronounced his own name? Wyrom?

nova violet
#

You should assume that there is nothing being said behind the curtain to us that we aren’t telling you in front of the curtain

humble ore
#

So which stats/skills do I need to jack up to get back what I'm getting hit with? Just point me in the right dir

echo aurora
#

Ok. Here are my three points. 1. Communication here was not good. 2. If there needs to be a system wide nerf to a class’ core spell, communicate the rationale and reasons for it. 3. In my opinion, the disabler review has not met its stated and overtly intended goals.

echo aurora
pine charm
nova violet
#

Probably spell aiming would help yes lol

#

But I’m not sure

tough flame
# dusky hatch I don’t think rangers were really at the forefront of the goals for the review T...

Speaking as someone who seems much more positive overall on the spell disabler review than most of the people talking in here over the past few hours...

...if secondary circle spells were the main targets, there were a lot of whiffs. (I don't think they were the main targets, which probably is a reason I'm not as negative as others!) 212/217, 110, and 118 got the CS-to-SMR conversion while 413 got the auto-success treatment. However, 135, 201, 210, 214, 216, 512, and possibly others I'm forgetting remain CS-based and unlikely to be useful in Ascension areas. 410 also got worse. [Edit 2: Oh, I forgot every CS-based spell in Minor Mental if we want to count that as secondary.]

Edit 1: I'd like to reiterate that I don't care about any of that strongly enough to want more time spent on it, however.

night panther
#

We should probably just not have CS spells in non-profession base circles

coral spade
#

^

echo aurora
#

There have been so many actual, really interesting ideas in this thread. I do want to say that (not in my comments over the last hour or two, but other folks’ before today).

pine charm
#

Any direction that made spell aiming a factor in ranger base is idiotic

coral spade
#

I think it is important to be grounded in the fact that beyond its name, the spell disabler review had very little official information from staff in its development. What we have are the goals at the top of the thread and the actual things that were changed. There isn't a guiding principle that is easy to see as a thread throughout the changes.

nova violet
#

Hmm

#

I don’t think that is true

night panther
#

Was the reduction in stagger RT for survival training actually implemented? Has anyone noticed it in action?

echo aurora
#

I don’t know. 1210 still wrecks me. That was the one that mattered to me. 🙂

dusky hatch
coral spade
#

We didn't even know what spells were being looked at until they were changed. We still don't know if all the spells in the review are changed or if some are yet to come

nova violet
#

I think Leafiara and I are broadly in agreement, and I agree off circle cs spells should probably not exist (or if they do exist it should be as a designed part of some mutant build)

dusky hatch
#

It’s also possible that there are just too many spells in GS, and trying to make all of them usable is an effort in futility 😬

heady bramble
#

Minor Mental is in a particularly weird case, being a circle currently exclusive to a square profession

nova violet
#

Broadly I think the spell disabler review was very helpful for me and the spells that were updated for me are really useful tools that I use all the time

#

But I didn’t have 611 or 410 haha

#

if I had had those before the review I probably would have been like oh this is not that big an improvement

#

Oh they did nerf 301, that did happen haha

tough flame
#

RIP 301.

echo aurora
#

What I had hoped for was 1. 1210 stuns capped at 30s. And 2. A system that made magic spells as varied and interesting as psm3 made disabling for squares.

nova violet
#

In the cold light of day though 301 was cheating

#

I can admit this now that the mourning period is over

dusky hatch
#

I actually think the 217 change was the biggest buff for my ranger 😆

tough flame
#

While I agree that I would have liked this to be PSM3 for magic and it definitely isn't, I won't let myself get too caught up in the could-have-beens I had envisioned (where, for example, far more new-to-the-spell status effects would now be rolling around than just 110 getting Staggered) or I'll never be satisfied.

heady bramble
#

Call my baby wizard a stan for evoked 519

nova violet
#

I think 1210 should be nerfed lol

echo aurora
nova violet
#

In terms of more PSM energy I will say they did that for 110 and now it’s one of my go to spells

tough flame
#

I genuinely hope that GMs don't have the level of perfectionism that some players do or we will absolutely never, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever get done with profession reviews, never mind move on to Elite/Legendary Ascension. 😂

echo aurora
#

Magic techniques for pures (and semis) like weapon techniques….

fringe orchid
pine charm
#

😵

tough flame
#

It's still real to me!

dusky hatch
#

I have to keep hope, because the ranger teasers were that awesome

oblique coral
echo aurora
tough flame
#

I did, however, say one time to a certain some-Don complaining about falling orb prices to just hoard them for Elite/Legendary Ascension. That might be what you're thinking of.

humble ore
#

I am a little sad that I feel like I have a really viable toolkit where I use nearly all ranger spells often and may slowly be moving back to a "no, only these," but meh, what am I gonna do? I guess the data says I'm doing it wrong and being too successful, which I wouldn't agree with but c'est la vie I guess

pine charm
#

Ascension has to get past the bard review....it's time to embrace charms and the hope they sell multiple companions in the wheel barrow

echo aurora
#

For example, I wouldn’t hate them pushing us into spell aiming, if they actually made bolting viable for rangers. Give and take away with balance in mind to improve gameplay.

pine charm
echo aurora
#

That’s because it’s not viable. Yet.

Agree it’s nonsensical the way it is now.

nova violet
#

Are you sure

humble ore
#

I like CS spells bc they seem more of what a ranger with a weapon would do

heady bramble
#

Spike Thorn bolts. Lolololol ||I laugh but I kind of like the idea, on paper||

nova violet
#

We won’t know for sure until somebody rolls a bolting ranger to check

tough flame
faint cargo
fringe orchid
#

Just give us the good parts, combined, from the previous bard proposals and I'll support it.

Long Live MnM Bard

echo aurora
# nova violet Are you sure

Yes. I did roll a bolting ranger. It was not viable. I did write about it on some lost forgotten forum post.

tough flame
nova violet
#

I was joking, sorry, I remember your bolting ranger haha

faint cargo
#

To be fair, I'd love to see the next tier of ASC.

pine charm
#

Putting spell aim as a factor in ranger base success is not far away from making pick locks a factor in warrior cmans

hazy viper
heady bramble
#

The historical use of Spell Aiming, outside of bolting spells, is on success rates of "focused" versions of otherwise AoE spells i.e. 710, 720. So I don't understand the logic behind SA being a factor in 610 either, if that's the case

nova violet
heady bramble
#

...611 I can almost sort of see, supposing you're directing the angle of the beam to get it just right [Emperor's New Groove Pacha dot gif]

echo aurora
#

They could change the name from spell aim, to spell maneuvers, and have it improve all areas of spellcasting and unlock status effects for spells based on rank.

heady bramble
#

Mm I would need to see some TP cost adjustments for some classes, but yeah

#

Sorcerers in particular are pushed towards spell aiming to some degree but it largely goes ignored because of lore requirements (705), spell cost (713), and just.. a general lack of the AS-boosts that wizards get for bolting porpoises. I'm keeping that typo, lol

fringe orchid
#

They used to use Spell Aiming as justification for why Wizards couldn't have reliable CS options. I assume they use CS power as justification for why Sorcerers are worst at bolting.

I'd love to see them walk that back and allow all Pures to utiliize all forms of combat methods.

humble moth
heady bramble
humble moth
#

I'm always constantly surprised at how close they are when I actually evaluate it

fringe orchid
#

Spell Aiming should be actual aimed bolt spells.

heady bramble
#

As someone who values customization in all things, I agree in general with the idea of different flavors of wizards and sorcs. Warding or bolting for all.

faint cargo
#

I'll just leave this nugget from my earlier Arena problem with the original clockwork golems as an empath.

Estild
 — 
02/20/2024 8:17 PM
Spell Aiming is an expected training skill for all Pures. ```
tough flame
#

Sorcerers are relatively fine on sheer bolt AS, but all else being equal, the power of 713 doesn't approach staples like 1707, 910, 510, or 518. (Relative to mana cost in the case of 1707, but even if ignoring mana cost, 713's still only close or better against chain and plate, respectively.)

Spell Aiming's very, very not good on them.

fringe orchid
#

Spell Aiming's very, very not good on them

ftfy

tough flame
#

You know what, that's fair. I don't like it even on wizards. 917 and warmages all day!

heady bramble
#

I can only really comment from a fairly low-level perspective, but the only thing I liked about bolting on sorcs is it at least allows them to capitalize on 709

fringe orchid
#

Bolting is like using a short sword with 100 AS and only typing attack at something wearing full plate with 100 DS.

rough swift
pearl creek
#

Missed a lot it seems, but my feedback is largely around the compression of chance to land and the lack of paths to scale into ascension areas. The floor came up on a lot, the ceiling also came down elsewhere. That actually helped several spells and did make them viable. There doesn’t seem to be a way to gain stats or skills that moves that ceiling much for scaling past cap. Physical combat had to go back and rescale combat skills past 2x to make them viable vs higher level mobs. My feelings so far are that we have that same gap for spells and are learning the same thing all over again.

dusky hatch
#

910/518 are still awesome. Lightning and big numbers, win win. Of course 917 and warmage too, because they’re awesome. But I still weave in the zappers.

Now if Tikba would stop blocking my 917 lightning dreams…then I might stop using them 😆

pearl creek
#

110 and 118 were both wins for example. 912 also. I can agree with standardization too, for creating a common and understood system to balance with. But forced mediocrity is a tough message without offering gains or a path of progression.

humble moth
#

And there, stun duration cap

limpid geode
#

this must be a nerf in some way, right? can we find a way to complain?!

humble moth
#

All stuns from damage now have a new cap of 6 rounds (30 seconds) against characters and 12 rounds (60 seconds) against creatures. Survival training can reduce the duration by -1% per 5 ranks up until 100 ranks, then -1% per 20 ranks after that. Similar to critical weighting, to make training that results in less than full round reduction worthwhile, there's chance to round up/down. e.g. a 4 round stun is 20 seconds, but Survival training reduces it to 18 seconds. There is then a 60% chance for it to be a 4 round stun and a 40% chance for it to be a 3 round stun.

dusky hatch
#

Next time, lead with the good news! 😁

tough flame
echo aurora