#[Official] Spell Disabler Review

1 messages · Page 3 of 1

night panther
#

They are an older creature, maybe they aren't set up to respect Stagger RT

vale hull
#

They certainly didn't respect our authoritahhh.

limpid geode
#

I assume it's a stagger thing because I use slow on them and it definitely helps by increasing their RT (and also can dispel their haste buff) and also I clearly notice they don't heal for several seconds when my nerve staff flares the RT lock.

fierce saddle
#

so question, does anyone know if stun follow the new duration rules? and does it get decreased by survival training? Just curious if this affects stun time generated by rounds of stun and such

crude epoch
#

Any timetable when 410/435 will be fixed?

brittle bane
#

912 is still costing 12 mana for me.. is this broken? sorry misread.. you're talking about 512.. tbf i dont know where to find how much mana 912 is supposed to cost now, if I wanted to double check 😛

acoustic hull
#

Have you checked the pins in this thread?

rare mulch
dusky hatch
#

Wizards have backup options at least. I actually never use 410 on my wizard anyway. 909 stomp, and now 912

covert pewter
crude epoch
rare mulch
crude epoch
covert pewter
#

As you should. As you must.

acoustic bough
coral spade
#

Def okay with time being taken on ewave. Its a pretty universal spell. Best to dial it in correctly👍

orchid pier
#

Auchand slays me. 😋 😂

echo aurora
#

Auchand, are you feeling pretty good about where things are at, other than 410?

covert pewter
#

So, let's talk Spell Power! The new disabler spells that use SMR take into account your level and your spell circle ranks to produce to produce Spell Power, which is what determines your success at punishing your foes. Spell Aim ranks can add to your Spell Power, but they offer a much smaller contribution than spell circle ranks. Disablers have a bonus to success; AOE disablers have a smaller bonus to success. 410 (Ewave) and 435 (Major Ewave) have also been updated to be more forgiving for those of you on the 10-ranks-is-all-you-get bandwagon.

#

You all owe Estild whisky for putting up with me during the refinement of the calculations.

hoary beacon
#

is this live?

nova violet
#

spell power is more fun to type than SMR offensive bonus

sleek inlet
lean folio
#

npc spell power levels over 9000

haughty heart
#

Does spell power help when the disabler is being activated via a magic item?

nova violet
#

theoretically if activating a magic item or scroll with MIU/AS there should be a conversion to phantom spell ranks which will then become SPELL POWER

#

not sure about the shrouds and similar no-skill-required items though

fathom wind
alpine rampart
#

personally I would like spells cast from magic items to just be the best they can be, there's no wand of superior fireballs in D&D ;3

nova violet
#

yeah, but this is rolemaster

alpine rampart
#

yeah but literally nobody born in the last 30 years knows what that is

coral spade
faint cargo
covert pewter
nova violet
#

so you're saying the audience is identical to gemstone

haughty heart
alpine rampart
covert pewter
echo aurora
#

@acoustic bough bolting ranger back on the build!

nova violet
#

god I really don't want to go into the hive just to try to web something

#

but I am going to, for you

rough swift
hoary beacon
#

I was just about to go web something, but tripped over a corpse

fringe steppe
#

Once I ever start hunting again, I will have to learn how to play again.

limpid geode
#

woot looking forward to testing this - hopefully it's fixed so we can move on to fixing 611/711 😛

alpine rampart
nova violet
# 
Your spell is ready.
You gesture at a chitinous kiramon myrmidon.
Cloudy wisps swirl about a chitinous kiramon myrmidon.
[SMR result: 109 (Open d100: 35)]
The wisps solidify into thick strands of webbing that tighten about its body!
Cast Roundtime 2 Seconds.
(Forcing stance down to guarded)
>
[mathbrain2: SMR preroll: 74]```

wow way better
calm rock
#

Is the 410 change live? if so .. omg i ewaved something for the first time since new years.

nova violet
#

I would've expected like a 35 preroll before the updates today on a 102 mob, so this is much more usable

nova violet
hoary beacon
#

inc 118
In a pleading whisper to Zelia, you pray for guidance as you prepare Web.
Your spell is ready.
You gesture at a treekin druid.
Cloudy wisps swirl about a treekin druid.
[SMR result: 161 (Open d100: 66)]
The wisps solidify into thick strands of webbing that tighten about its body!

ok, that's MUCH better

also, Zelia rules, Marlu drools

alpine rampart
#

Zelia? Who dat

coral spade
#

alrighty...lets see how non-miu using ewave items are holding up in HW...

faint cargo
#

Pretty happy with the 410 change that's live now. (On my pures)

humble moth
alpine rampart
#

Didn't Arachne get ganked in WL a while back?

rough swift
alpine rampart
#

💥 🕷️ bigfoot 🕷️ SCsquishkitty

covert pewter
#

Development Team: We're your Huckleberry.

humble moth
#

If she didn't pull me and my troops to be by her side to control you all. Nah

rough swift
#

You seen one big ugly spider, you seen 'em all, and they all squish the same. ✊

faint cargo
acoustic bough
# 
You gesture at a spectral triton protector.
Cloudy wisps swirl about a spectral triton protector.
[SMR result: 192 (Open d100: 94)]
The wisps solidify into thick strands of webbing that tighten about her body!
An earthy, sweet aroma wafts from a spectral triton protector in a murky haze.
The vitality of nature bestows you with a burst of strength!
Cast Roundtime 2 Seconds.

67 spell ranks, 202 SA.
Pretty nice indeed. Thanks fellahs.

coral spade
#

...whelp....

A series of ghostly, pulsating waves moves outward from you.
[SMR result: 127 (Open d100: 88)]
A withered shadow-cloaked draugr is buffeted by the russet ethereal waves and is knocked to the ground.
   ... 5 points of damage!
   Blow grazes right arm lightly.
[SMR result: 130 (Open d100: 58)]
A grim gigas skald is buffeted by the russet ethereal waves and is knocked to the ground.
   ... 20 points of damage!
   Good blow to back!
   The gigas skald is stunned!
[SMR result: 161 (Open d100: 79, Bonus: 39)]
A tattooed gigas berserker is buffeted by the russet ethereal waves.
   ... 25 points of damage!
   Strong blow to left arm breaks it!
   The gigas berserker is stunned!
In response to the vibrations, a tattooed gigas berserker's skin seems to discolor and harden, lending the berserker unnatural durability!```

You done good kids. Real good. 👍
faint cargo
#

Will be be getting the full spell power formula?

covert pewter
humble moth
echo aurora
#

Does MLE still exist?

covert pewter
alpine rampart
#

Quick make him sign an Envoy NDA where he can't math out problems and figure out formulas!

fathom wind
#

Don't forget to rub your smooth stone for Spell Power bonuses.

covert pewter
coral spade
#

Okay...lets go spirt shroud a disir and see what happens

limpid geode
#

Web with maxed spells and 2x spell aim (cleric):

[SMR result: 297 (Open d100: 209)]
The wisps solidify into thick strands of webbing that tighten about its body!
Cast Roundtime 2 Seconds.```
```Cloudy wisps swirl about a glistening cerebralite. (level 100)
[SMR result: 172 (Open d100: 76)]
The wisps solidify into thick strands of webbing that tighten about its body!```
```Cloudy wisps swirl about a fallen crusader. (level 97)
[SMR result: 203 (Open d100: 86)]
The wisps solidify into thick strands of webbing that tighten about her body!```

410 with maxed spells and 2x spell aim (wizard):
```[SMR result: 131 (Open d100: 74)]
A fallen crusader is buffeted by the dark ethereal waves and is knocked to the ground.```
covert pewter
#

I do want to remind people that you should make use of openers.

humble moth
#

So, level.. spell research... Spell aiming... Hmmm. (jots down notes)

covert pewter
#

As damaging SMRs come out, they'll benefit from you using a disabler first, obviously.

acoustic bough
#

[SMR result: 113 (Open d100: 40)] Greater Rhimar Major Ewave with 1x MIU and 2x SA

rare mulch
thin pagoda
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I didn't see it on the wiki: Is the reduced duration from survival and KS before, or after the endroll calculation. IE: If they get an SMR Roll of 1 billion, and I've got 300 ranks of Survival and KS, am I still looking at a 30 second duration?

coral spade
#

Shroud vs Disir

[SMR result: 82 (Open d100: 51)]
A shining winged disir is buffeted by the russet ethereal waves, but is unaffected.```
Frankly, this has always been the case, so I consider this fine.
nova violet
#

basically, SMR attacks benefit from your target being prone, stunned, immobilized, rooted, or otherwise already affected by some negative effect

alpine rampart
coral spade
sleek inlet
nova violet
#

get it

faint cargo
#

Guess it's time for survival training.

tough flame
#

Welp. Time to reconsider where Spell Aiming should appear on my characters' Ascension timetables!

Best part is that the only non-wizard of mine who has any at the moment is my paladin. Gimme that 118 power.

coral spade
#

get that Rooted going on things. +30 to smr rolls. That Cold Snap looking better and better.

night panther
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Thank you dev team for getting this change in

alpine rampart
nova violet
#

that level of success on single target web is definitely in the realm where I want to go blind/web on grizzled enemies and things like that

rare mulch
#

Back to using web and Ewave
Wooo hoooooo

fringe steppe
#

Is this stuff going to end up documented anywhere?

thin pagoda
#

So, looks like all them KS rogues and warriors are gonna want to get to 200 survival asap, get that 30 second cap to 15.

hazy viper
#

Just need some custom 118 now. Chains, vines, tentacles…

tough flame
#

Are these things on the test server? I can't figure out if I want to flip my bard back out of ATPs and spend the next 1,515,000 exp on Spell Aiming.

hoary beacon
limpid geode
#

Web with maxed spells and 2x spell aim (cleric):

[SMR result: 114 (Open d100: 33)]
The wisps solidify into thick strands of webbing that tighten about its body!```
```Cloudy wisps swirl about a darkly inked fetish master. (level 104)
[SMR result: 174 (Open d100: 77)]
The wisps solidify into thick strands of webbing that tighten about its body!```
```Cloudy wisps swirl about a frostborne lich.
[SMR result: 103 (Open d100: 33)] (level 110)
The wisps solidify into thick strands of webbing that tighten about her body!```
```Cloudy wisps swirl about a frostborne lich.
[SMR result: 109 (Open d100: 27)]
The wisps solidify into thick strands of webbing that tighten about her body!```

410 with maxed spells and 2x spell aim (wizard):
```[SMR result: 123 (Open d100: 44)]
A murky soul siphon is buffeted by the dark ethereal waves and is knocked to the ground.```
```[SMR result: 117 (Open d100: 27)]
A darkly inked fetish master is buffeted by the dark ethereal waves and is knocked to the ground.```
```[SMR result: 136 (Open d100: 78)]
A frostborne lich is buffeted by the dark ethereal waves and is knocked to the ground.```
```[SMR result: 114 (Open d100: 94)]
A frostborne lich is buffeted by the dark ethereal waves and is knocked to the ground.```
Web looks to be in a much better place than 410 still - at least against the lichies.
humble moth
#

I think bards are a bit too tumultuous to go too heavy into speculative investment right now.

#

But, ATP can be easily enough changed

nova violet
#

410 is AOE, so it doesn't get as much of a disabler benefit as 118 single target

#

try call wind out, you probably have a much bigger spell rank contribution there

humble moth
#

Also, 410 is a minor circle spell, it should never be more powerful than a major circle, and even less so compared to a profession circle

#

I vaguely remember historical guidance being 1, 2, 2.5 in terms of relative strength. But that may be decades old thinking at this point.

limpid geode
#

well then I guess 214 SMR would be OP so that's why we have a CS version still? 😛

tough flame
#

214 SMR is what I call "play a ranger."

valid comet
humble moth
#

Kinda wish there was a separate Semi SMR calculation that leverages CMAN instead of spell aiming or something. CS feels bad on Paladin.. But, that's also beyond scope for now.

alpine rampart
limpid geode
#

912 with maxed spells and 2x spell aim (126 wizard ranks):

The wind knocks a darkly inked fetish master off balance and it falls over!```
```[SMR result: 155 (Open d100: 75)] (level 106)
The wind knocks a murky soul siphon off balance and it falls over!```
```[SMR result: 157 (Open d100: 76)] (level 110)
The wind knocks a frostborne lich off balance and he falls over!```
hoary beacon
#

I'm still dreadfully curious what else is going to be done to 110

coral spade
humble moth
dusky hatch
limpid geode
#

I did note that 912 didn't stun any of those targets - doesn't it usually stun too?

humble moth
#

nah

covert pewter
dusky hatch
#

Nope

covert pewter
#

912 is pretty great, though, it pushes down stance.

coral spade
#

I wouldn't worry about stuns much. Its the yellow light of disablers

covert pewter
#

And applies Disengage.

limpid geode
#

stun is pretty crucial for followup SMR bonus - not saying 912 needs that, but I did remember 912 used to stun the targets and the wiki still says it does

coral spade
#

yeah, but everyting shakes nearly instantly. Being on the ground is probably a good bonus too. But I get your point. Stun is just mega unreliaable

thin pagoda
#

Pfft stun is like a 1 round disable for basically everything after level 70 anyway. Soandso shakes off the stun! I'd rather give pure RT

limpid geode
# 
Your glowbark staff glows intensely with a verdant light!
A gust of wind tugs at your sleeves.  Suddenly, a fierce wind rips through the area, scattering everything in its path and making it difficult to remain standing.
[SMR result: 196 (Open d100: 84, Bonus: 33)]
The wind knocks a darkly inked fetish master off balance and it falls over!
The wind then subsides.
Cast Roundtime 1 Second.
J>
[manatimer: 2024-01-03 20:25:26 -0500 | You absorb 62 experience points. 90%]
Tsalyn raises his voice in a resonant canticle, his hands imbued with a flickering white light.
Tsalyn gestures at a darkly inked fetish master.
[SMR result: 179 (Open d100: 84, Bonus: 20)]
A darkly inked fetish master startles at the sudden, clamorous ring of metal on metal!```
Only 20 bonus for being on the ground I think - stun can be from like 35-50 in my experience.
dusty rivet
#

It’s also putting them in or close to offensive probably from those results. 912 is one of the biggest glow ups in this review.

coral spade
#

yeah, a reliable knockdown + stancer is pretty great

limpid geode
#

if you are a wizard and want to followup with 917...and you only have 1 second RT...knocking them down and stunning them would be an awesome setup

covert pewter
#

I worked hard to get it to match similar debuffing from the old 912, so it's not much different.

#

But Disengage has been a nice add for survivability.

dusky hatch
#

If you want stuns, use 435. If you want stance, use 912

covert pewter
# 
Spell Lists
  Wizard.............................|              97```
coral spade
#

As I think about it...thats a physical combo that doesn't exist. We don't have a knockdown+stancer. Thats super nice. Plus disengage.

covert pewter
#

There's a reason why I like 912. 😛

nova violet
#

I have been call winded several times by darkwoodes and never got stunned

#

also, can you nerf darkwoodes

#

they just got way more annoying

dusky hatch
#

912 doesn’t need to be the one-size-fits-all knock down. Don’t be greedy!

covert pewter
#

912 looks like it's wrong on the wiki.

oblique coral
#

now if 912 could knock down flying it would be the perfect AOE disabler

covert pewter
#

I mean, what are you doing? Fighting flocks of seagulls?

nova violet
#

man 912 said it stuns back in 2006

dusty rivet
#

I would also say I never remember it ever stunning. Like that’s news to me if it ever did but like most wizards it wasn’t exactly an every day thing.

nova violet
#

I wonder when that changed

dusky hatch
#

Seems more likely that it would knock things up into flying

covert pewter
#

It definitely used to stun things.

#

It stopped doing so when it was converted to push down stance instead.

oblique coral
#

OTF flying rats are scary 🐀 🪽

nova violet
#

the spell list on the website doesn't say it stuns so it must have changed sometime in the late 90s

dusty rivet
#

That would explain it. So what, was that ELR it got changed from stun to stance?

acoustic bough
limpid geode
# 
[SMR result: 125 (Open d100: 25)]
A wispy hand of air reaches toward a darkly inked fetish master and grasps it tightly.  The hand squeezes hard, snatching the breath from its lungs.
A darkly inked fetish master is stunned.
Cast Roundtime 1 Second.
J>
A murky soul siphon scrambles in on its crooked legs.
J>17
Your disk arrives, following you dutifully.
J>
Your hands glow with power as you invoke the phrase for Earthen Fury...
Your spell is ready.
You gesture at a darkly inked fetish master.
The ground beneath a darkly inked fetish master begins to boil violently!
Fiery debris explodes from the ground beneath a darkly inked fetish master!
[SMR result: 151 (Open d100: 39, Bonus: 35)]```
Tradeoff between the better bonus from stunning the target vs. having them start on the ground from 912 with a lesser bonus.
tough flame
#

Mmmmmmmmmmm, 912.

oblique coral
#

912 so hot right now

covert pewter
#

You could always do 912 + 435 + whatever you want.

dusky hatch
#

Or double 512 for that beastmode immobilize bonus

dusty rivet
#

Can you uncap the 435 damage again just for like half an hour so we can do it with the new formula? lol

coral spade
#

Ultimately, casters who don't need the setups to power through, will just keep powering through. The setups are at their absolute best when its a target you used to struggle with overpowering.

covert pewter
dusky hatch
#

We need a “biggest hit” stat in our profile

oblique coral
#

With like a maxed out runestaff with all the fixings You probably have a 50%+ chance to flare <something> to stun/disable on every cast plus some of it might be pre-attack

coral spade
#

lol. I'd like some whacky combat stats like that

acoustic bough
#

[SMR result: 147 (Open d100: 87)] disir (114)
[SMR result: 192 (Open d100: 94)] triton protector (98)
web at 67 MnS and 202 SA

coral spade
acoustic bough
#

It broke it immediately, but yeah heh

coral spade
acoustic bough
#

They were waiting in ambush. I surely thought I was dead. Thanks for stopping by

dusty rivet
coral spade
#

no worries. They almost got me too. Thats the KS life. Just channel Guts and move forward.

#

@covert pewter Hey boss. Angrey bois are still busted
The shadows bubble and seethe as a roiling crimson angargeist rematerializes, swirling together into a vortex of vile energies!
Crackling torrents of spectral energy erupt from the angargeist as it reforms, warping the air as they ripple outward!

[SMR result: 112 (Open d100: 169, Penalty: 23)]
The disruptive wave pulses through you, rending flesh and sending shocks of agony racing down your spine!
... 1 point of damage!
Spasm to your left hand.

just fyi

covert pewter
#

Broken in what way?

coral spade
#

Thats an auto miss for them every time to they do it to me
I'm good. I'm not that good.

covert pewter
#

Haha.

#

It just needs to be updated. It's a random damage factor and your failure rate is low enough that it's pretty trivial randoming.

past cloak
#

Sorry if someone brought it up already, but didn't 410/435 used to take water lore into effect to lower a target's SMR or whatever?

covert pewter
oblique coral
#

Any chance we can switch the water lore to 410 bonus so we can see it? (I assume it is hidden negative to enemy defense)

rough swift
#

I know it's ancient and weird, but for a while in the Red Forest, flying vipers very readily used 615 on me as a disabler. Are there any plans to touch that? It hardly fits the description of an attack spell, but it's not a very direct disabler, either.

grizzled lintel
limpid geode
#

another confluence hunt tonight and again some pretty strong evidence that 711 is not giving the full 7 seconds of RT when it should - continuing to think that with stagger they have some ability to mitigate the RT where they didn't before.

brittle bane
#

I hope pures have a way to be as good at SMR with their spells as warriors are at shield trample and warcry... The same can be said for my 10m rogue with shield throw (and he's only 2x shield 1x cman) Don't need to collect a bunch of data to see that my 10 m guildmaster warrior is waay better at shield trample and warcry (in any order) than my 50+m wizard is at 912 or 410..... Pures SMR needs to be better... I hope it gets tuned appropriately.. Would be nice to see a way for pures and semis to simulate that 6th rank of guild skills, whether its through lores and/or other skills or even.. alchemy!! make alchemy great again.. (it could give a temporary buff similar to fletching does for arrows)

zinc trout
acoustic bough
brittle bane
acoustic bough
pearl creek
#

woah, SMR update. Thank you for the update! Landing a bunch of webs now and it's awesome.

Side note, casting via infused pally bonded weapons are still less effective than straight casting the spells. Not a clue why that would be, but if other pallies are testing it's something to keep in mind.

infused, +80 to d100

Cloudy wisps swirl about a triton brawler.
[SMR result: 113 (Open d100: 33, Bonus: 2)]
The wisps solidify into thick strands of webbing that tighten about her body!```

vs straight cast, +89 to d100
```Cloudy wisps swirl about a triton brawler.
[SMR result: 172 (Open d100: 83, Bonus: 2)]```

2x spell aim helping
brittle bane
dusky hatch
#

Why are you making unnecessary comparisons? Judge them on their own merit. Do they do what they need to do? Forcing arbitrary equality for the sake of its fruitless

limpid geode
# zinc trout What evidence do you have?

So I hunt MA with a sorc/cleric combo. The sorc leads with 711, and the cleric follows up with 312. Most of the time one cast of each kills the target. However, sometimes it takes 312+302 to finish them off.

Sometimes I fumble one of those and it takes 3 casts (fairly rare but happens once or twice a hunt). Even in that case, I would basically never see the target attack me unless the 711 had a low endroll and didn't give the full 7 seconds (also rare). 3 casts takes about 6-7 seconds, so it's within the "window of safety" from 711.

Since the update to stagger, I am frequently getting attacked 1-2 seconds before I can cast the 3rd spell. So roughly 4-6 seconds after 711, I am getting attacked...and while there can be some latency between casts, the more I see it, the more I know it's not due to latency, but seemingly due to 711 not lasting a full 7 seconds (sorc has 100 ranks of necro lore and in these cases the spell is doing max damage/rt).

This pattern is pretty noticeable to me since I have hunted the confluence with this exact strategy for years now and have a very good feel of when I'm safe or not...and it's pretty clear that something has changed.

brittle bane
# dusky hatch Why are you making unnecessary comparisons? Judge them on their own merit. Do th...

that's the whole point.. the answer (to, do they do what you need them to do) was no in Hinterwilds.. not that the new stuff is out, you can get a feel vs bandits.. if they fail against bandits, they're gonna fail way more against hinterwilds and we're right back where we started.. the whole reason the spell disabler review came about was to address skill efficacy in ascension...Comparisons about skill efficacy are spot on for game balance...

acoustic bough
#

You clearly haven't tried them if you are saying they fail against bandits. Go try them.

coral spade
#

Warcry is a legacy system that was half updated for PSM3. I really wouldn't compare it to anything, effective or not

brittle bane
acoustic bough
#

Sounds like the stagger from 711 is getting reduced by the creatures survival training!

limpid geode
#

yeah that was one of my guesses - not sure if creatures can train survival - imagine a huge lava elemental going to someone to train them in how to survive and reduce RT hehe

nova violet
#

They have to have a lot of survival, they live in the confluence!

coral spade
#

I do know that the confluence critters have sort of always been wonky in one way or another. Might want to test it elsewhere

pearl creek
# coral spade Warcry is a legacy system that was half updated for PSM3. I really wouldn't comp...

warrior warding (what I call warcries) is effective through ascension grounds with no actual tp requirement. No issue with warriors having it, I'm glad they do, but it seems like a fair comparison for setups 🤷‍♂️ .
Specifically, if I played more pures with the correct training for the used setup and it was noticeably less effective than warcries I'd be frustrated. I don't think that's what we're seeing at the moment, but I can see that sentiment happening earlier in the week.

limpid geode
#

I mean my main point is that 711 is worse in the confluence than before the change and afaik the change to stagger RT was not intended to nerf 711

coral spade
nova violet
#

I think the question should be focused more on "do pures have setups" rather than "do pures have a lot of SMR bonus"

pearl creek
#

which is why I said less effective, and in typing this I suppose it would have been clearer to say less effective in successfully connecting. Which system is used shouldn't matter, the broader idea is that if you train correctly for the spell/cman/etc how successful are you landing it.

nova violet
#

like, web working for me is really nice but my primary disablers are not in minor spiritual and they're not SMR

coral spade
nova violet
#

the numbers people are posting for capped wizards look plenty effective to me, but I won't be satisfied until I see some immolate evokes

#

in memory of a real one

pearl creek
#

Yeah, litmus test with the new SMR formula is pretty good. I also have 2x SA and more than "standard" spell ranks for a pally, I'd hope it felt decent. I'll go back to infusing web/110 in my weapon to get some numbers tonight during hunts

brittle bane
#

my ewave with 77 ranks of MNE is better than my 912 with 101 wizard ranks now... I'll post some numbers soon to compare with warrior warcry and shield trample... Wizard can still miss.. on bandits.. doesn't feel very strong... ewave NEVER missed before

coral spade
#

Stuff like paladin weapon infusions should probably more effective than the spell itself, since its a unique feature of the class

tough flame
#

This approach of looking at success rates is sort of glossing over what happens if it does succeed. Even if Shield Trample had a 100% success rate and Call Wind had a 75% success rate, just hypothetically, I'd vastly prefer the latter because the effect is more what I'm after.

Of course, the occasional thing in this game has it all. Looking at you, Moonbeam. But for the most part, no!

dusky hatch
nova violet
#

moonbeam doesn't have everything! it can't also kill the target checks notes oh, I see

coral spade
brittle bane
dusky hatch
tough flame
#

Shield Trample vs. Elemental Wave is a more reasonable comparison. Even then, though, you can cast from guarded with no penalty, so it's hard to directly compare.

keen cape
#

now we just need to add the Ash effect from Teras on characters that get immolated, and disable their ability to bounce and flail properly.

brittle bane
coral spade
#

Are we sure they DON'T work against asc creatures?

brittle bane
#

id say 912 vs warcry cry are pretty comparable Leafiara.. they both stance and add stagger don't they (one immobilizes while the other stances).. make stance play a role... that's fair..

brittle bane
# coral spade Are we sure they DON'T work against asc creatures?

if they can miss vs bandits... here's a clip of 912 vs 410 vs warcry cry vs the same bandits after they stand back up and reset all their status effects.. ```A sphere of dark ethereal ripples expands outward from you.
[SMR result: 169 (Open d100: 73)]
A halfling mugger is buffeted by the dark ethereal sphere and is knocked to the ground.
[SMR result: 128 (Open d100: 33)]
A halfling mugger is buffeted by the dark ethereal sphere and is knocked to the ground.
Cast Roundtime 1 Second.

You gesture.
A gust of wind tugs at your sleeves. Suddenly, a fierce wind rips through the area, scattering everything in its path and making it difficult to remain standing.
[SMR result: 154 (Open d100: 59)]
The wind knocks a halfling mugger off balance and he falls over!
[SMR result: 173 (Open d100: 79)]
The wind knocks a halfling mugger off balance and he falls over!
The wind then subsides.
Cast Roundtime 1 Second.

You let loose an eerie, modulating cry!
[SSR result: 158 (Open d100: 33)]
A halfling mugger looks at you in utter terror!
[SSR result: 220 (Open d100: 95)]
A halfling mugger looks at you in utter terror!
A halfling mugger freezes in place, shaking with terror!
Roundtime: 3 sec.```

pearl creek
# dusky hatch It is still important to consider them wholistically. Simple metrics like outcom...

the SMR formula changed tonight, so that's sort of where I'm directing my focus/feedback. What happens when they land is certainly part of the picture, and will vary a bunch across all the updates. I'm not sure I'm familiar enough with all of them to offer a ton of feedback on how different spells should be weighted or more/less difficult.
Thinking about it, I also see them as distinct topics to discuss, 1) How consistently can you land setup spells if trained within reason and 2) Is the spell more or less effective than other setups and does that warrant a difficulty to land modifier. Currently it's single target is easier than aoe, similar to CMAN. That seems reasonable to me?

coral spade
#

Warcry cry doesn't add stagger. Its just the fear effect, which can last seconds.

pearl creek
#

terrified is the name of the effect. I only say it because I think the wiki page for it is hilariously brief

brittle bane
coral spade
#

Not really. Thats not how it works in HW or other ASC grounds at all. Casters critters cast right through the effect. Things attack right through it. It takes a very high roll to make them miss their next action.

brittle bane
#

in those clips ewave is slightly better than 912 and warcry is way better than both.. (even though the wizard has 77 mne ranks and 101 wizard ranks) i dont remember if influence is a factor for warcry but that's a dwarf with only 15 int bonus.. I still think spells could use a bump from lores and/or other training and even throw in stats to differentiate a bit between races... call me crazy <shrug>

alpine rampart
#

warcry is also a guild skill you so once mastered there's a effectivness bump

coral spade
#

I don't know what to say. Bandits aren't undansormrs.

keen cape
covert pewter
#

I'm not of the opinion that just because one ability isn't currently well-balanced, we should release others that aren't.

#

The new Spell Power equation is effective but it's not overpowered.

acoustic bough
#

You heard it here folks. War cries need to be balanced!

alpine rampart
#

Carns cry is pretty well balanced, every ascension mob shakes it off almost instantly lol. It's only my main choice vs same level enemies

coral spade
#

Cry is extremely good in some places and not very good in others. ymmv

brittle bane
#

anyone have some clips in HW? of 410 912 cry etc

dusky hatch
#

Aoe cry is also potentially like 15% of a warriors stamina

alpine rampart
#

Make 912 take 15% mana, ez clap (even though mana is way easier to regen than stamina)

tough flame
#

I was getting good results with 912 in the Hinterwilds yesterday, but haven't gone back in since today's updates yet.

pearl creek
#

I regret defending the warcry comparison as acceptable 😦
I am still enjoying the change in SMR formula.

coral spade
alpine rampart
# 
Obvious paths: east, southwest, west, northwest
>warcry cry all
You let loose an eerie, modulating cry! 
[SSR result: 172 (Open d100: 57)]
A bloody halfling cannibal is forced from hiding!
A bloody halfling cannibal looks at you in utter terror! 
[SSR result: 181 (Open d100: 72)]
A savage fork-tongued wendigo looks at you in utter terror! 
[SSR result: 184 (Open d100: 69)]
A stunted halfling bloodspeaker looks at you in utter terror! 
[SSR result: 154 (Open d100: 24)]
A stunted halfling bloodspeaker looks at you in utter terror! 
[SSR result: 163 (Open d100: 48)]
A stunted halfling bloodspeaker looks at you in utter terror! 
Roundtime: 3 sec.
R>
A savage fork-tongued wendigo throws its head back and lets out a bone-shaking roar, ripping free of the magics restraining it in a wash of bloody light.
The air grows even colder as an intensely localized cyclone forms overhead, assailing the area with an onslaught of snow and icy wind.
A savage fork-tongued wendigo's jaw unhinges as it tries to ravage you with its shark-like teeth!
  AS: +505 vs DS: +587 with AvD: +7 + d100 roll: +52 = -23
   A clean miss.
R>
A heavily armored battle mastodon stomps in, trunk swinging between its huge forelegs.
>
You dip your shoulder and rush towards a bloody halfling cannibal!
[SMR result: 172 (Open d100: 38, Bonus: 100)]
Your size contributes significantly to the attack!
You slam into the halfling cannibal, who is sent careening headlong into a nearby group of combatants as he falls to the ground!
   ... 15 points of damage!
   Nice blow to right leg!
   The halfling cannibal is stunned!
Your attack exposes a vulnerability in a bloody halfling cannibal's defenses!
A heavily armored battle mastodon is struck!
[SMR result: 142 (Open d100: 62, Penalty: 1)]
The armored battle mastodon is knocked to the ground!
   ... 3 points of damage!
   Strike to back throws the armored battle mastodon off balance momentarily.
Your attack exposes a vulnerability in a heavily armored battle mastodon's defenses!
A behemothic gorefrost golem is struck!
[SMR result: 25 (Open d100: -47, Penalty: 1)]
The gorefrost golem maintains its balance!
A savage fork-tongued wendigo is struck!
[SMR result: 164 (Open d100: 84, Penalty: 1)]
The fork-tongued wendigo is knocked to the ground!
   ... 10 points of damage!
   Jarring blow to the fork-tongued wendigo's weapon arm.
Your attack exposes a vulnerability in a savage fork-tongued wendigo's defenses!
A stunted halfling bloodspeaker is struck!
[SMR result: 258 (Open d100: 72, Bonus: 100)]
The halfling bloodspeaker is knocked to the ground!
   ... 35 points of damage!
   Strike to solar plexus stuns the halfling bloodspeaker.
   It is knocked to the ground!
   The halfling bloodspeaker is stunned!
Your attack exposes a vulnerability in a stunted halfling bloodspeaker's defenses!
A stunted halfling bloodspeaker is struck!
[SMR result: 212 (Open d100: 8, Bonus: 100)]
The halfling bloodspeaker is knocked to the ground!
   ... 30 points of damage!
   Leg jerked violently.  The halfling bloodspeaker is stunned.
   It is knocked to the ground!
   The halfling bloodspeaker is stunned!
Your attack exposes a vulnerability in a stunted halfling bloodspeaker's defenses!
A stunted halfling bloodspeaker is struck!
[SMR result: 257 (Open d100: 71, Bonus: 100)]
The halfling bloodspeaker is knocked to the ground!
   ... 30 points of damage!
   The halfling bloodspeaker stunned by strike to hand.
   It is knocked to the ground!
   The halfling bloodspeaker is stunned!
Your attack exposes a vulnerability in a stunted halfling bloodspeaker's defenses!
Roundtime: 3 sec.
R>weapon voll``` here's a carns cry/bullrush in HW, you'll notice 2 things almost shook it before my RT was even over

If I cry with a Wendigo in the room I'm 100% getting sympathied/multistriked by it

Oh there's literally a wendigo there
nova violet
alpine rampart
brittle bane
#

look at that sweet 100 bonus from warcry.... looks better than 410 and 912 😛 Tayler.. i havent been there in a while but.. dont they shake everything you do?

coral spade
#

I don't want to try and make the case warcries aren't good. They are. Its just not a one size fits all thing

acoustic bough
# 
19:50:16: You gesture at a shining winged disir.
19:50:16: Tapping the moons above, you draw down a shaft of swirling moonlight and bathe a shining winged disir in its muted glow.
19:50:16: [SMR result: 119 (Open d100: 24)]
19:50:20: A shining winged disir's wings unfurl in a rainbow of color that brightens toward blinding white.  The forces restraining her fall away in shreds of crackling mana.

I got 4s out of moonbeam!

coral spade
#

Yeah, those girls shake everything.

pearl creek
haughty heart
dusky hatch
acoustic bough
# 
19:36:28: You gesture at a shining winged disir.
19:36:28: Cloudy wisps swirl about a shining winged disir.
19:36:28: [SMR result: 147 (Open d100: 87)]
19:36:28: The wisps solidify into thick strands of webbing that tighten about her body!
19:36:28: A shining winged disir gives a flex of her great wings and the webbing ensnaring she gives way, leaving her free.

0s out of web

coral spade
past cloak
dusky hatch
# 
A gust of wind tugs at your sleeves.  Suddenly, a fierce wind rips through the area, scattering everything in its path and making it difficult to remain standing.
[SMR result: 320 (Open d100: 179, Bonus: 60)]
The wind buffets a withered shadow-cloaked draugr violently!
[SMR result: 241 (Open d100: 183)]
The wind knocks an eyeless black valravn off balance and it falls over!
The wind then subsides.
Cast Roundtime 1 Second.``` ez 😆
echo aurora
#

Bolting ranger show off (I'm assuming you have a 912 tattoo).

dusky hatch
# 
[SMR result: 100 (Open d100: -61, Bonus: 60)]
A brawny gigas shield-maiden is unaffected.
[SMR result: 144 (Open d100: 19, Bonus: 20)]
The wind buffets a grim gigas skald violently!
[SMR result: 63 (Open d100: 12)]
An eyeless black valravn is unaffected.
[SMR result: 118 (Open d100: 33, Bonus: 20)]
The wind buffets a withered shadow-cloaked draugr violently!
[SMR result: 147 (Open d100: 40, Bonus: 20)]
The wind buffets a tattooed gigas berserker violently!
[SMR result: 138 (Open d100: 30, Bonus: 20)]
The wind buffets a tattooed gigas berserker violently!
[SMR result: 128 (Open d100: 70)]
The wind knocks an eyeless black valravn off balance and it falls over!
The wind then subsides.
Cast Roundtime 1 Second.

You gesture at a roiling crimson angargeist.
A sphere of snapping and crackling ethereal ripples expands outward from you.
[SMR result: 64 (Open d100: 11, Penalty: 20)]
A roiling crimson angargeist is buffeted by the snapping and crackling ethereal sphere, but is unaffected.
[SMR result: 94 (Open d100: 33, Bonus: 10)]
A shining winged disir is buffeted by the snapping and crackling ethereal sphere, but is unaffected.
[SMR result: 98 (Open d100: 36, Bonus: 13)]
A shining winged disir is buffeted by the snapping and crackling ethereal sphere, but is unaffected.
Cast Roundtime 1 Second.```
sleek inlet
# limpid geode So I hunt MA with a sorc/cleric combo. The sorc leads with 711, and the cleric f...

It's working correctly. Likely, what you experienced before was a situation where the elemental performs an action and was already in roundtime, then when you cast Pain (711), it added 7 more seconds to the creature's existing roundtime (so if it still had a few seconds left, it was longer than 7 second since it (existing roundtime + 7). Now, the roundtime does not stack, so if the creature was already in roundtime and you cast Pain , it's only going to add enough time to reach the 7 second mark instead of simply adding 7 seconds to existing roundtime.

limpid geode
brittle bane
dusky hatch
#

That was 153 wiz/75 MnE, for context

brittle bane
#

what did you get 60 bonus from? multiple casts?

dusky hatch
#

Not 100% sure. I stomped as well, so that probably accounts for the 20s. Looks like the maiden might've been stunned too

brittle bane
#

100 air lore ranks should mean something for 912 success chance.. still havent heard if the water elemental lore benefit for 410 is still around or not... It used to be a thing.. why not anymore?

coral spade
#

I believe it was said above it was still around

dusky hatch
brittle bane
#

well, ewave is worse for me now than it was before.. enough said.. and its still better than 912.. please allow lores or mana controls or harness power or alchemy or SOMETHING to bump other spells too.. personally, my character is worse off than he was before... 912 is better than it was but it can still miss! 410 is still better than 912.. they can both miss vs bandits without a negative roll (410 NEVER missed) AND you can now get negative rolls.. (101 wizard 77 mne 105 air lore 50 water lore) 54m exp? weak

dusty frigate
#

912 seems slightly better against the high-level valravns with my 101/101/101 spell build

humble moth
#

I was expecting the adjustment to 501 to apply unconscious at a lower endroll margin now.
Also, POKE messaging someone unconscious seemed... weird... it said it woke her up, she was able to stand, but still got a regains consciousness line a few moments later.

dusty frigate
#

they have touched the old magic

covert pewter
fierce saddle
fringe orchid
# 
A sphere of formless black ripples expands outward from you.
[SMR result: 137 (Open d100: 36)]
A pale scaled shaper is buffeted by the formless black sphere and is knocked to the ground.

A sphere of formless black ripples expands outward from you.
[SMR result: 187 (Open d100: 68, Bonus: 13)]
A lithe veiled sentinel is buffeted by the formless black sphere and is knocked to the ground.

A sphere of formless black ripples expands outward from you.
[SMR result: 183 (Open d100: 77)]
A deathsworn fanatic is buffeted by the formless black sphere and is knocked to the ground.

Bard: 101/101 split + 2x Spell Aiming.

I expected a larger bonus.

I wish these changes were on Test so I didn't have to burn another fixskills to see the difference of the standard spell split and 0/1x Spell Aiming.

There must be some scenario where less training is equally powerful, if 10 MnE ranks is still hitting.

fierce saddle
#

so, testing the new SMR stuff that I have access to in hinterwilds, 118 and 410, first for 118 it could have 100% success still "probably" useless on everything I've cast it at so far, nothing here looks like it doesn't have an instant shake web + act, same with stuns.

410/435 - not reliable enough currently to open with it on ascension creatures, and I have no access to a physical manuever to make it actually hit, we'd need the magic equivalent of pin down or volley, which guess what pures can't use.

So I think I'll echo what drigler said, at least on those that perhaps lores can play a roll here in the spell power calculation as well, because if the need is to use an "opener" before you ewave, I would really like to understand what that is supposed to be.

There are basically a couple times when disables I feel want to be used, first of all to make hard enemies easier to take down like grizzled critters. 413/212/217 are all pretty darn good at that for warding, I would say they are successful. For bolting, ehhh 912 maybe? I don't know as I don't have an ascension level wizard to test with.

The other is multiple creatures, and this is where things like 410 have been fairly key with staying alive by applying RT to creatures. Right now, it is just not safe to use 410 against lots of creatures, because out of 10 3-4 are almost for sure gonna fail, and then they'll use a physical manuever on the caster, which will then put them into RT and death spiral can happen soon after.

Now if the answer is not e-wave for those situations, that's fine, as a sorcerer I do have access to 709, which as of today still functions quite well for that, but my bard? Basically no good options anymore to try and CC a room.

fierce saddle
#

Whether the answer is lores, or a guild skill, (if you wanna tie a disabler thing to alchemy I'll hate you all, but I'd probably grind alchemy to get that bonus) or even a feat or something, not sure. But yeah as is, there feels a fairly big disaparity in options available to those whom don't have access to physical techniques.

nova violet
#

reading through that it sounds like a big issue is that staggered is the only thing you find reliable in HW

fierce saddle
#

I will say, still doing some more testing, and it really feels like this breaks when creatures hit the 9-10 level above you range, like the numbers are not bad (maybe a very slight uptweak but very close) in the 100-105 creature range with the new formula.

But when I fight the real high level stuff is where things seem to break down

nova violet
#

because everything just shakes-and-acts through your other disablers

fierce saddle
#

basically, like 706 would be amazing after the spell setup/disabler review changes, except it litterally does nothing to what I fight

nova violet
#

right

#

and so the comparison to physical is primarily just about how combat maneuvers generally apply staggered and spells generally don't

fierce saddle
#

they apply either staggered or stagger plus a condition that doesn't get shaken, like rooted

nova violet
#

do they really all shake immobilize but not root haha

#

or maybe that's just that sorcerers don't hand out immobilize or root well

#

I think that's good feedback though

fierce saddle
#

like what if, after being shaken off, stun applied a debuff to the target that lowered their AS/DS/SMR as well

#

I do root from my sigil set procs, so I know basically nothing shakes it

I don't think I have access to anything that applies immobilize

#

I do still have access to the best "disabler" in 720, but that eats loot haha

#

and again, for sorcerers for now, 709 still works really well, I worry a bit about it going to spell power, but it'll probably still be ok cause I have like 220 sorcerer spell ranks

#

my biggest problem really is my bard currently, but that's somewhat self inflicted in his training style, not really sure what to do there for him

nova violet
#

1030 disabler!

tough flame
# nova violet reading through that it sounds like a big issue is that staggered is the only th...

Staggered is the only thing I find reliable in a pretty decent number of places, heh.

...though the Hinterwilds isn't among them, so that's been interesting to see people's different reactions. But yeah, four years ago when we were being asked for Ascension suggestions, I was asking for a way to upgrade 316 to add RT since it was clear to me how much more helpful that was even back then. (Helped along by the Sanctum being go-to capped hunting at the time.)

nova violet
#

ask for them to reduce the mana cost

fierce saddle
#

I'd need a lot more spells to be able to use 1030 as a disabler

#

my bards like 40 bard ranks and 40 mne

But yeah I went back and did more testing on like the lower leveled hinterwilds stuff, and 410/435 seemed fairly good with 77 ranks of mne, it was really when you get to mutants/disables/angry ghosts/disir/valvs, that it runs into major problems

So like I said, maybe actually specifically something that helps address those higher level things in the SMR formula

nova violet
#

I will say walking into a room with 10 guys and expecting to disable all of them does seem like a tall order. even if you had a 100+ SMR bonus you'd have a 40% chance of getting at least one negative open roll on that room (95%^10 = 60%)

#

that's just a lot of bad guys!

tough flame
#

To be fair, 410 was pretty ludicrously incredible as it was before.

fierce saddle
#

yeah, it's not really to say "I" am going to have problems. My sorcerer has top end gear, and 709/720 work pretty well if needed.

It's really that I see holes in kits, and that bothers me. maybe it shouldn't?

#

like I guess part of it, is I see things that are kinda obviously OP such as warcries, but I don't wanna call for nerfs cause noone likes nerfs, but like SSR resolution is broken, compared to every other way to apply a debuff or such.

nova violet
#

in fairness as we discovered in this discussion warcries also do not apply roundtime (or at least carn's cry doesn't) edit to add: okay I guess the one that does nothing but applies roundtime does

fierce saddle
#

carn's cry is terrify, bellow is RT

tough flame
fierce saddle
#

I think a good part of what I'm seeing here is also just a lot of disparity between classes that have had reviews, and thus have some cool decent disablers in their kit, vs the people who've been stuck for 20 years with their kits

nova violet
#

I would certainly agree that bards need a review!

tough flame
#

Did the previous bard review proposal have any new AoE disablers in it? I can't remember.

fierce saddle
#

yeah, it had an aoe root one, that would of been pretty good I suspect

alpine rampart
tough flame
alpine rampart
#

like ewave might be harder to hit, but it's prone and stuck in RT, we get lots of single status effect tools but very, very few compound ones

nova violet
#

It also had the effect where if you cast depression it made your next voice slam AOE

#

So like shield bashing three dudes you just debuffed

#

Actually it was full of crazy things, why did you make me read the bard review we’ll never get again

tough flame
#

I'm on team "setup-into-setup is no bueno," so that one wouldn't appeal to me. 😄

nova violet
fierce saddle
nova violet
#

EVERY proning cman applies RT

tough flame
#

The funny thing is your list doesn't even mention Bullrush and Shield Trample inflicting Vulnerable.

fierce saddle
#

I can't even think of a single combat manuever that does only one thing... oh and they also can all proc various flares so they benefit much more from gear, most spell disablers/setups cannot.

nova violet
#

well

#

no all my spells can proc flares

#

this is why I don't think these attempted comparisons are super meaningful

rough swift
nova violet
#

for one thing it leads people to just make stuff up lmao

tough flame
#

Disablers can proc flares. The only thing they're really missing in that regard compared to physical maneuvers is spikes.

alpine rampart
#

Bull rush is also literal garbage unless you use a disabler first, same for shield trample, I was more talking about warcries and aoe's since they keep getting referenced a lot

nova violet
#

bull rush is...not garbage?

tough flame
#

Whoa, Bullrush garbage? Some hot takes tonight. 😄
Edit: And I actually think Bullrush is quite overrated (mostly because people seem to prefer it as an opener over mstrike punch/kick on monks and I have no clue why), but it's not garbage.

nova violet
#

listen

#

I understand everybody misses 2023 mechanics chat but this thread is not the place for it

rough swift
#

Also, just speaking for myself, I think the people who can't stomach the idea of double disablers have been drunk on power for far too long 😆

nova violet
#

man that joke would have been so much better if I had remembered that the year just changed

#

I meant 2022!

tough flame
#

I'm not counting Hamstring as a disabler. Or 435 on the magical side of things, for that matter!

Something like Carn's Cry -> Hamstring or 435 makes perfect sense to me because the second shot has a very real chance of killing. Basically, unless a "disabler" has a ~20% or higher chance to kill, it's my first move, not my second.

nova violet
#

I would agree that 435 uses the bard definition of disabler

fierce saddle
#

only really when combined with something like pin down, god pin down into current 435 is such a good room clear though

nova violet
#

I think if the response is “usually it won’t actually kill everything in the room in one cast unless they’re already disabled” that kind of is my point

fierce saddle
#

open 720 is the best disabler, it just eats some loot in the process usually

nova violet
#

It also disables the boxes

fierce saddle
#

it doesn't nuke stuff on the ground with value anymore I don't think? but yeah outa 7-8 things it'll usually instagib 2-3, but those other 5, it'll keep them locked down in perpetual RT/Stun/Prone

#

I would like to say for sure, I think spell power is a great new system, and probably will be a good foundation for tweaking stuff to make things good.

I am curious if 309 and 917 will end up changing to spell power or if it what really change much for them?

nova violet
#

309 is already "spell ranks, plus spell aim gives an important bonus but is clearly not averaged in" so I am guessing it already basically worked like spell power

tough flame
#

917 is already really powerful. 309... sort of also is, but more on sheer health damage than killing power. It's crit capped.

fierce saddle
#

oh I know both are already quite good, but if this is the new standard that like new spell SMR stuff will be, then standardize! haha

tough flame
#

Think I might have figured it out since I just saw this message too. Spirit recovery? (I was down 1 because of my urglaes thumb-ring.) It's either that or something Sanctum-specific since I think you hunt there too and I haven't seen it before now.

nova violet
#

yeah I think it must be sanctum specific because it doesn't happen in the hive

#

it might be heat exhaustion

#

auchand loves bad weather

#

actually I would be interested to see 917 SMR bonus vs 912 SMR bonus from someone

fierce saddle
#

hmmm sure, let me go test on my wizard

nova violet
#

auchand basically said a big part of disabler SMR bonus is just that they get a flat bonus for being disablers (larger for single target)

fierce saddle
#

yeah, that comment is basically what made me think this was going to apply to more than just disablers

nova violet
#

I wonder if "magical SMR offensive bonus" has always just been called spell power internally and we never knew haha

#

auchand did imply the possibility of more offensive SMR spells to come, I would agree that presumably the existing offensive SMR spells should follow the same formula that they do

fierce saddle
#

some examples

A gust of wind tugs at your sleeves.  Suddenly, a fierce wind rips through the area, scattering everything in its path and making it difficult to remain standing.
[SMR result: 178 (Open d100: 108)]
The wind knocks a frost giant off balance and she falls over!
The wind then subsides.
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.
(Forcing stance down to guarded)```
```You trace a simple rune while intoning the mystical phrase for Elemental Wave...
Your spell is ready.
You gesture at a frost giant.
A wave of dark ethereal ripples moves outward from you.
[SMR result: 118 (Open d100: 46)]
A frost giant is buffeted by the dark ethereal waves and is knocked to the ground.
A frost giant maneuvers closer to you.
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.```
```You gesture at a frost giant.
The ground beneath a frost giant begins to boil violently!
Fiery debris explodes from the ground beneath a frost giant!
[SMR result: 151 (Open d100: 95)]
   ... 30 points of damage!
   Extreme heat causes a frost giant's right leg to expand and snap.  That must hurt!
   It is knocked to the ground!
   The frost giant is stunned!
The frost giant screams in agony as the flames barbecue her flesh!
   ... 45 points of damage!
   Left arm incinerated.  Unfortunate.
   The giant's reinforced shield falls to the ground.```
nova violet
#

70, 72, 56, looks reasonable

#

you can see that "give ewave an extra bump for the squares" effect there haha

fierce saddle
#

that's with nearly even mne and wizard spell circle ranks

nova violet
#

oh that makes more sense

#

hahaha

#

wizard spell splits are so weird

fierce saddle
#

I'm surprised that 912 is not higher than ewave though, as I do have a couple more wizard than mne
I also have 2x spell aim obviously

nova violet
#

there's like wiggle in the SMR formula so your preroll bonus is not consistent

fierce saddle
#

917 does of course have the major advantage that it keeps ticking even if it misses the first show for wizards

#

didn't know there was a second randomization besides the roll involved

#

but yeah, I feel like with the new formula, just going super heavy wizard ranks and 912->917 might be better than trying to max bolt AS and even worrying about that, you can sit in guarded too that way

tough flame
#

Hmm. I guess something like a 173 Wizard Base, 100 Major Elemental, 30 Minor Elemental split could be interesting. (Major Elemental below 100 is too hard a sell for me because of 535. Would rather sacrifice the DS and even AS and TD from Minor Elemental.)

fierce saddle
#

yeah, something alone that lines was my thoughts too

#

my wizard is far from capped, but given how 917 is already the best spell fun hunting ascension stuffs, so doubling down on it and getting the boon of good 912 (with it applying disengage now is very nice) I think could be a very effective way of hunting

#

maybe when the disable stuff hits test server I might play around with builds

fringe orchid
#

Spell Aiming should be separated from the base formula and added directly to the endroll as Bonus: X. Spell Aiming Ranks/2 = Bonus

covert pewter
fierce saddle
#

this is with 2x spell aim, no current spell aim enhancives, 77 mne ranks, 3x total spells.

You gesture at a flayed gigas disciple.
A wave of dark ethereal ripples moves outward from you.
[SMR result: 82 (Open d100: 19)]
A flayed gigas disciple is buffeted by the dark ethereal waves, but is unaffected.
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.

A wave of dark ethereal ripples moves outward from you.
[SMR result: 112 (Open d100: 42)]
A squamous reptilian mutant is buffeted by the dark ethereal waves and is knocked to the ground.
Earthen elemental energy energizes you.
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.

You gesture at a squamous reptilian mutant.
A wave of dark ethereal ripples moves outward from you.
[SMR result: 94 (Open d100: 27)]
A squamous reptilian mutant is buffeted by the dark ethereal waves, but is unaffected.
[SMR result: 14 (Open d100: -49)]
A squamous reptilian mutant is buffeted by the dark ethereal waves, but is unaffected.
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.

A wave of dark ethereal ripples moves outward from you.
[SMR result: 177 (Open d100: 82, Bonus: 18)]
A heavily armored battle mastodon is buffeted by the dark ethereal waves and is knocked to the ground.
[SMR result: 139 (Open d100: 37, Bonus: 18)]
A brawny gigas shield-maiden is buffeted by the dark ethereal waves and is knocked to the ground.
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.

You gesture at a tattooed gigas berserker.
A wave of dark ethereal ripples moves outward from you.
[SMR result: 85 (Open d100: 14)]
A tattooed gigas berserker is buffeted by the dark ethereal waves, but is unaffected.
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.```

Basically on things like disciples, failing something for 3 seconds can mean death, so even though it's +63 in that example, that's just too risky to use a disabler, over using a CS spell that has 100% to land outside of a fumble.
#

and if that's the intent, that's fine, I didn't "need" disablers to hunt these things, so nothing really changes, I'm more stating that as current numbers go, these spells are ineffective against high level things.

Heck maybe the answer is an ascension skill that gives phantom spell power but only against things 6 levels + above you, that'd be something that'd be neat to invest exp in to make these more effective

coral spade
#

All i can say is i think there is a massive overestimation of how often warrior cman setups land against level 114+ stuff like undansormrs, valravns and disciples.

And Renaden is right. Bullrush against those targets, in a room full of them with no prior set up is actually garbage and gonna get you killed.

I can post numbers in a couple of hours, but i think there is a good amount of hyperbole here about how often these things land.

Im not saying spell X or Y is fine. Im not a spell expert. If casters say its not enough, I believe them. But the idea that warriors are just 100% proning a room in 1 roll is silly.

#

Carns cry is the literal example of a set up before setups, something alot of folks here have said they dont want to do.

To make Cry work in HW you have to 1)master the skill, 2) cman train a stance to 3/3 ranks. 3) give up the benefits of the other warrior stance options. 4) land cry on foes (hardly trivial against highest level stuff) 4a) cry again if some targets were missed. 5) probably do another warcry like bellow to buy you time 6)lose access to your forcert options while in 3-6-9 seconds of HARD RT and finally 7)do an actual disabler.

Thats what the setup game is like for warriors, layers on layers of setups.

fierce saddle
#

So I guess I'm not saying it's not enough, as I will be fine, I can nuke the room no disablers required on my sorcerer. But that's to say, all this hard work, I don't think hit the mark for me because these still are liabilities to use in hunting rather than beneficial.

And at least in the case of 410, it's still an overall nerf to its previous effectiveness.

I do think part of the issue is still so few options that apply effects that I would want to apply. Like give some options to apply things like cripple, vulnerable, rooted. Now 413 is still a huge winner for me, dropping td by an extra amount that I can stack with 715, heck with 212, 413, 715 I think we could even hit the wyrm now with spells, so that's really nice to see.

#

And maybe my feelings on it really are as simple as I had high expectations but i ended up with some things nerfed that were unexpected compared to their previous iterations. 410, 711, 118 (for my cs at least). And I expect if 709 goes to smr (which is expected sooner or later) that will also be a nerf over its current strength. And so yeah even if there are a couple neat things like 413, getting nerfed just doesn't feel very good.

#

Anyways I'm gonna probably check out of this for now, I'm not happy with myself feeling negative about a huge mechanics release like this, and I feel terrible if any of my comments have upset any gms, as that has never been my intention. I really do appreciate all the hard work that went into everything for this.

latent falcon
#

Is 912 supposed to be 8 mana now? It still seems to cost 12.

coral spade
#

It sounds like the real issue with the sorc kit atm is that it needs its profession review.

elder mist
#

Not sure if this has been mentioned yet (so much to read in here). Still getting a Sing RT of 3 sec with Lullabye.

The war griffin slips into a deep slumber.
Sing Roundtime 3 Seconds.```
coral spade
# 
[SMR result: 55 (Open d100: 9, Bonus: 11)]
The shadow-cloaked draugr harmlessly deflects your charge!```
Bullrush is NOT a reliable thing for warriors in HW. I promise for those who think its a one button freight train out there, its not.
violet ferry
limpid geode
#

still 3s on 611 too!

echo aurora
#

I’m still concerned that the modifications have materially negatively impacted existing items.

Greater Rhimar Blizzard, for example, which costs 60k BS to take to T3 (approx $140 or more depending on how many charges are purchased) (major ewave), was giving not great/disappointing numbers in Atoll against fanatics and psionists — and they aren’t even ascension creatures.

acoustic hull
#

Do these changes provide more incentive for diverse spell splits, less incentive, or no real effect?

coral spade
grizzled lintel
#

I think trying to balance around every item in existence is a good way to get longer lead times than we already have on development.

violet ferry
#

Just in case, they did push out the last rounds of ewave buffs at around 8pm last night wasn't it? in case your testing was older.

echo aurora
coral spade
grizzled lintel
#

I guess - but in this case a better analogy is perhaps they changed the speed limit to something that's higher for everyone else - but your tesla can't quite go those speeds.

echo aurora
coral spade
#

I would understand frustration on an expensive cash purchase that worked to X level working less than that. But it certainly felt to me like they had fixed the items I saw last night

grizzled lintel
#

I'm just not sure complaining to your local authorities during a meeting about the speed changes about the specific tesla you bought is necessarily the right forum is all 😉

echo aurora
#

69, 56, 68, 56 against the fanatics (no spell aim).

coral spade
grizzled lintel
#

Also just to be clear I am not saying "We should not voice our feelings about purchased items" - I am just saying - perhaps not here.

echo aurora
grizzled lintel
# echo aurora Knock it off. They specifically asked for feedback on how the changes have impac...

Oh - fair enough! I must have missed that - there are very many comments. If they specifically want to know about items - ignore everything I said and keep on keeping on 🙂 I just wanted to make sure your comments ended up in the place they should be. If they didn't want to see item stuff I could see them being overlooked here (especially if an item managed by a specific GM) and maybe not in their own thread.

coral spade
echo aurora
# 
[SMR result: 94 (Open d100: 26)]
An ethereal triton psionicist is buffeted by the icy blue ethereal waves, but is unaffected.
[SMR result: 106 (Open d100: 37)]
A triton fanatic is buffeted by the icy blue ethereal waves and is knocked to the ground.
   ... 10 points of damage!
   Chilly blast to the right eye leaves the triton fanatic in tears.
The calmed look leaves a triton fanatic.
[SMR result: 111 (Open d100: 30, Bonus: 25)]
A triton fanatic is buffeted by the icy blue ethereal waves and is knocked to the ground.
   ... 5 points of damage!
   Icy chill to the triton fanatic's midriff.  Looks like a bowl of nice hot stew is in order.
The calmed look leaves a triton fanatic.
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.```

```[SMR result: 116 (Open d100: 45)]
An ethereal triton psionicist is buffeted by the icy blue ethereal waves and is knocked to the ground.
   ... 15 points of damage!
   Hit passes right through the midsection.
   Nothing hurts like an empty stomach.
[SMR result: 112 (Open d100: 43, Bonus: 1)]
A triton fanatic is buffeted by the icy blue ethereal waves and is knocked to the ground.
   ... 5 points of damage!
   Icy chill to the triton fanatic's midriff.  Looks like a bowl of nice hot stew is in order.
[SMR result: 88 (Open d100: 7, Bonus: 25)]
A triton fanatic is buffeted by the icy blue ethereal waves, but is unaffected.
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.```
coral spade
#

I mean those don't look bad? I don't know what they were prior. but a +60 vs the psionicst or so?

# 
A withered shadow-cloaked draugr is buffeted by the russet ethereal waves, but is unaffected.
[SMR result: 150 (Open d100: 75)]
A grim gigas skald is buffeted by the russet ethereal waves and is knocked to the ground.
   ... 25 points of damage!
   Strong blow to left leg breaks it!
   The gigas skald is stunned!```
Spirit shroud
echo aurora
#

Yeah — maybe. I don’t have a dog in this fight, it’s not my bow. But these are pretty close to like level, non-ascension creatures.

I’ll try and do testing on my animal headdress, because I can compare before and after there… but that has a long cooldown so it makes testing a bit harder. I can say that item virtually never failed, even against ascension.

I will venture to the edge of off-topic here by suggesting that I don’t think a 60-70% chance to have a pay item’s ability succeed is enough value for the money, and it concerns me, but that is something I will take to a different thread.

coral spade
#

That surprises me. The spirit shroud would DEFINITELY miss, particularly against the highest level stuff. When you got to level 114+ it was never reliable.

grizzled lintel
#

I think maybe if we're distilling the sentiment there though - it applies to spells as well as items. What I think I'm hearing (and I think agree with) is that in general players want their disables to connect, and if they have a low (or even) chance of connecting we view them as not really being worth the squeeze. I feel like I heard that voiced a different way earlier as well.

dusky hatch
# 
[SMR result: 94 (Open d100: 72)]
A niveous giant warg is buffeted by the icy blue ethereal sphere, but is unaffected.
[SMR result: 107 (Open d100: 74)]
A grim gigas skald is buffeted by the icy blue ethereal sphere and is knocked to the ground.
   ... 10 points of damage!
   The gigas skald just got the cold shoulder!
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.

The squall of icy air expands outward from you.
[SMR result: 242 (Open d100: 135, Bonus: 80)]
A stunted halfling bloodspeaker is buffeted by the icy blue ethereal sphere.
   ... 60 points of damage!
   Frigid blast renders the halfling bloodspeaker's right hand useless - missing even!
   The bloodspeaker's dark wooden crook falls to the ground.
[SMR result: 124 (Open d100: 59, Bonus: 38)]
An immense gold-bristled hinterboar is buffeted by the icy blue ethereal sphere and is knocked to the ground.
   ... 5 points of damage!
   Chilly blast to the head.  Bet the gold-bristled hinterboar's ears are tingling!
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.```
I only have blizzard unlocked 1x/day, but those are my most recent executions. Definitely not great margins without the bonuses. Just to keep the context clear, this is a greater rhimar CLENCH blizzard, not standard major ewave
echo aurora
#

I just want dev staff to consider, since they are making changes that impact scripts and the functioning of pay weapons and armor, to ask whether those changes are working as they intend them, within the framework of those items.

As this was hopefully the DR for me to script my longbow, it does give me some pause in considering adding a script where one of the benefits is supposed to be a disabler (e.g. daybringer), and opting for something with a no failure rate instead (e.g. something like briar).

(Edit: looking at dawnbringer: Has a chance (25%) to root an undead enemy for 2-5 seconds once every 20 seconds following a maneuver check using level.)

echo aurora
dusky hatch
violet ferry
#

I'm wondering if the new spell power approach is hurting semis, where squares get a pushup since they're in the "ten ranks is all I take" class, and pures are getting their full 3x spell training bonuses

coral spade
#

kenstrom's stuff traditionally does, but some other stuff is just some baseline level of effectiveness

echo aurora
#

Fair question, I can’t recall on Qs.

dusky hatch
# 
A brawny gigas shield-maiden is buffeted by the gusts of white snow.
   ... 30 points of damage!
   The gigas shield-maiden pales as your chillingly accurate shot penetrates to the bone.
In response to the icy chill, a brawny gigas shield-maiden's skin seems to discolor and harden, lending the shield-maiden unnatural durability!
A brawny gigas shield-maiden is buffeted by the gusts of white snow and is knocked to the ground.
   ... 25 points of damage!
   Solid blast of ice square to the chest rocks the gigas shield-maiden back on her heels!
An eyeless black valravn is buffeted by the gusts of white snow and is knocked to the ground.
   ... 30 points of damage!
   The black valravn gets a glassy look in its eyes as blast connects solidly... or is that an icy stare?
As the radiance dims around black valravn's body, its shadow stretches long and strange as unsettling silence fills the air.  Heralded by a sound like the stirring of great wings, the noise of your surroundings crashes back down upon you, more noticeable for its brief absence.
An eyeless black valravn tumbles to the ground, landing in an awful tangle of talons and feathers.
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.

The squall of icy air expands outward from you.
A squamous reptilian mutant is buffeted by the gusts of white snow and is knocked to the ground.
   ... 25 points of damage!
   The reptilian mutant staggers as your icy attack shatters his right leg.
A quivering sanguine oozeling is buffeted by the gusts of white snow.
   ... 30 points of damage!
A quivering sanguine oozeling is buffeted by the gusts of white snow.
   ... 25 points of damage!
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.```
# 

The squall of icy air expands outward from you.
A withered shadow-cloaked draugr is buffeted by the gusts of white snow.
   ... 30 points of damage!
   Icy blast to neck freezes the shadow-cloaked draugr's words in mid-speech and leaves him speechless...permanently!
You hear a sound like a child weeping as a white glow separates itself from the shadow-cloaked draugr's body and rises into the heavens.
Electric blue light pours from the draugr's eye sockets and erupts from his tattoos, leaving only a shadowy cadaver behind as animation departs a withered shadow-cloaked draugr.
A withered shadow-cloaked draugr shakes off the effects of the flames.
A withered shadow-cloaked draugr is buffeted by the gusts of white snow.
   ... 60 points of damage!
   The shadow-cloaked draugr fails to avoid the icy blast and that, as the story goes, is it!
You hear a sound like a child weeping as a white glow separates itself from the shadow-cloaked draugr's body and rises into the heavens.
Electric blue light pours from the draugr's eye sockets and erupts from his tattoos, leaving only a shadowy cadaver behind as animation departs a withered shadow-cloaked draugr.
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.```
A few more examples of greater rhimar blizzard from before the new year. Tried to find examples on higher level mobs
coral spade
echo aurora
night panther
#

Only took the bard out for a couple hunts this morning but with 75 MnE ranks and no spell aiming, 410 felt a lot better in the Atoll for him. Not near auto-success like it used to be, but that was probably too good for too long. In the future I might consider a 101/101 setup for him (75/75 presently)

echo aurora
pearl creek
coral spade
coral spade
steep mirage
#

Cry is good. It's just not really there for your safety - it doesnt last that long. It's there so you can blast them in the chops and you've got like 5 seconds to do it

coral spade
#

I personally find cry utterly useless in Moonsedge for example. I never use it. It's also 30 stamina without the stance. Which is very expensive stamina wise

pearl creek
#

My comments are about warcries as a whole. Ignore me if this is specifically about Caryn’s cry (sp? On phone)

peak shoal
#

Ugh, I wish they'd either turn on slowmode here or be WAY more prompt about updating the wiki with announcements made here.... trying to keep up with the changes and issues related to them is a royal PITA for those of us that can only check this thread a couple times a day

limpid geode
# sleek inlet It's working correctly. Likely, what you experienced before was a situation whe...

I appreciate you looking into this. After some more testing this morning, I wasn't able to generate any log files showing anything less than 6 seconds, which admittedly could be due to latency making it appear like slightly less than 7s. After thinking about what you said, I agree that what probably "feels" different is that no matter what, after 7 seconds I am going to get attacked, since all other sources of RT prior to 711 are null and "refreshed" to 7 seconds. Before this change, the 7s would almost always be in addition to some amount of RT so it would almost always give me more than 7s.

Technically this is still a nerf to 711 which I don't think is warranted at this point but I understand the desire to move things to stagger and appreciate that you helped at least elucidate what's going on with regards to how it "feels" post-changes.

dusky hatch
limpid geode
worldly sphinx
#

It now costs 8 mana to unphase a phased item by casting 704 at it, which is the safest way to do it. Previously, it cost 5 mana to unphase and 4 mana to phase.

limpid geode
#

That's an odd change - I wonder why that happened. I just use DROP though - it works fine with SET NOMARKEDDROP ON fyi - so if your item is marked and you have that flag on, you can't actually DROP the item. If you know it's phased, DROP once isn't really dangerous anyways.

The knapsack becomes somewhat insubstantial and appears lighter.
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.
(Forcing stance down to guarded)
>drop kna
Your knapsack flickers in and out of existence for a moment but then stabilizes.  It seems heavier.

You think that you can safely drop a knapsack now that it is in a solid state again.  Maybe you should try again.
>drop kna
You notice that the knapsack is marked as unsellable and stop yourself.
[You can disable this feature by using the SET NOMARKEDDROP OFF command at any time.]```
worldly sphinx
crude epoch
limpid geode
verbal portal
night panther
#

I think Spell Power is looking at total spell ranks for its baseline, not in-circle ranks. Maybe in circle ranks count higher though. Would be a good parallel to how physical SMR works; your SMR bonus is your SMR bonus, but ranks in a specific CMan add to it

fierce saddle
#

pretty sure spell power is only calculating circle ranks, as my 410 bonus is higher than 118 eventhough 118 has a higher single target bonus to it, but I have 14ish more ranks of MnE

night panther
#

My 14m exp cleric with 303 total spell ranks (but mutant heavily weighted to 300s circle) and zero spell aim can SMR web a siren with 100% success. He has 20 MnS ranks

violet ferry
fierce saddle
#

12 ranks of it, and I don't think it has any particular benefit?

night panther
# 
Your spell is ready.
You gesture.
A gust of wind tugs at your sleeves.  Suddenly, a fierce wind rips through the area, scattering everything in its path and making it difficult to remain standing.
[SMR result: 41 (Open d100: -68)]
A triton fanatic is unaffected.
[SMR result: 186 (Open d100: 73)]
The wind knocks a triton fanatic off balance and she falls over!
[SMR result: 173 (Open d100: 75)]
The wind knocks an ethereal triton psionicist off balance and she falls over!
The wind then subsides.
Cast Roundtime 1 Second.```Things are looking good for the wizard with Call Wind. 127 Wiz ranks, 303 total spell ranks, 258 spell aim ranks (shout out to enhancives)
violet ferry
#

Water lore is supposed to help 410/435

fierce saddle
#

with the conversion to smr, I'm unsure if the lore has any benefit to the smr calculations as it was not mentioned

violet ferry
#

#1191064189981163611 message

fierce saddle
#

well unfortunately not really able to test whether that's the difference or not

oblique coral
#

I was trying out disciples/mutants in north HW and my ewave (50 water lore ranks) seemed to be about as good as my call wind (wiz 127), around 60-77 margin depending on their level

hazy viper
#

Any plans for updating 1108 and 1120 beyond mana costs? Telepathy lore requirements are steep to affect undead and the issue with 1108 and having mobs flee the room to another is frustrating.

Empaths could really use something in their primary circle that is SMR based as well. I could see 1108 and 1120 being SMR based if we picture them as waves of emotion or psychic energy.

coral spade
#

I'm free for a second, I'll go grab that warcry data from that area

oblique coral
night panther
# 
[SMR result: 141 (Open d100: 88, Bonus: 8)]
Your size considerably hinders your attack!
You slam into the black valravn, who is sent careening headlong into a nearby group of combatants as it falls to the ground!
   ... 7 points of damage!
   Blow grazes right leg.
Your attack exposes a vulnerability in an eyeless black valravn's defenses!
A brawny gigas shield-maiden is struck!
[SMR result: 87 (Open d100: 8)]
The gigas shield-maiden maintains her balance!
A brawny gigas shield-maiden is struck!
[SMR result: 148 (Open d100: 68)]
The gigas shield-maiden is knocked to the ground!
   ... 10 points of damage!
   Finger jams and swells.
Your attack exposes a vulnerability in a brawny gigas shield-maiden's defenses!
Roundtime: 3 sec.```Bullrush is great but it's not a guaranteed win button AOE disable or anything, at least not hunting ascension zones. That's with 3 ranks in the skill, so I could improve that, but not enough to make it like old Ewave good. Also I am facing size discrimination because of my halfling heritage.
hazy viper
coral spade
night panther
#

Yeah I could do three twin hammers but lazy.

verbal portal
hazy viper
#

Ya, i think clerics are doing solid because they had their review and have profession circle disables and SMR. Im feeling the lack as an empath from this spell disabler review.

Web looks great post yesterdays spell power update but not for hinterwilds hunting where most things break it immediately.

Unbalance could be good but still waiting.

Bind is still not good as it is CS.

#

Are any empaths switching things up? I can see using 212/217 for sure but nothing beyond that.

night panther
#

I think an SMR spell or two in the 1100s is a hole in the Empath kit which would hopefully be addressed in a profession review at some point. Probably won't find many people arguing that wouldn't be helpful

acoustic bough
#

I’m also in the boat of I’m not sure SA is applying to spell power based on someone saying they only need to roll a 1 to hit a level 98 target with 67 MnS and 0x SA. And myself needing to roll a 3 with 67 MnS and 2x SA. Yeah level ranges but if SA is working there then the benefit is so small it’s not worth training.

acoustic hull
#

1108 is ripe for SMR bolt status

sleek inlet
acoustic bough
#

How would one test to verify a creatures actual level?

dusky hatch
#

Is it possible to expose more bits of the SMR calculation on the output? Similar to AS/DS CS/TD resolutions? I expect some part of the end user challenge is that the SMR feedback is very abbreviated and obfuscated. Having it all aggregated into simply bonus, roll and endroll leaves a lot of guesswork

calm rock
#

Would that information, or ability to control variables, be available if we were testing on a test server rather than production?

acoustic bough
oblique coral
#

Just test them vs a lvl 100 alt. (or an unsuspecting giant rat hunter)

humble moth
#

The way I understand it, SMR is a giant calculation engine. Where you can establish a set of skills, factors, weightings on the offensive side, and a series of skills, conditions, nuances/etc, on the target side.
Displaying more information out of there, given it's super variable nature, would likely be a substantial amount of work, and widely inconsistant. It's like displaying an array with 100 0s and maybe 10-15 factors, and then a different 10-15 factors on the next SMR roll... and then the same on the defensive side.

calm rock
#

The onus shouldn't be on customers to determine if the code is functioning as designed.

sleek inlet
#

It's not. We verified it's working correctly.

oblique coral
#

incant 410, 10011010100110011000110101010010101010011, SUCCESS!

humble moth
#

Code always functions as it is meant to. inputs, factors, and results differences are where theres gaps.

humble moth
acoustic bough
#

Yep, the bugs are intentional until they're fixed.

sleek inlet
#

The original response was simply pointing out a flaw in the methodology, if you do choose to test it yourself.

oblique coral
#

We need a test dummy in test

night panther
#

Estild, iirc (and I may be mistaken) when PSM3 happened and Ascension creatures became a thing, wasn't there some sort of additional bonus applied to CM enhancives/ascension ranks to help SMR? Is that right and if so can that be considered for Spell Aiming maybe here?

night panther
fierce saddle
sleek inlet
#

Only in circle spell ranks count.

fierce saddle
#

ok, that's what I thought based on the wording, appreciate the clarity

nova violet
#

Actually it might have been a little more than 2x spell aim, I don’t know if my enhancives were on

vital umbra
#

This whole process makes it abundantly clear why the original plan was to finish profession reviews before the spell disabler review. I'm glad this is happening even though the sorc/bard review were postponed. I agree that it seems a bit unrealistic to expect to walk into a room of 110+ level mobs and disable them all in one go, especially with a minor circle spell. Vive la bard review.

night panther
# 
>incant 912
You grunt a short phrase of dwarven incantations as you prepare the Call Wind spell...
Your spell is ready.
You gesture.
A gust of wind tugs at your sleeves.  Suddenly, a fierce wind rips through the area, scattering everything in its path and making it difficult to remain standing.
Your magic fails to find a target.
The wind then subsides.
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.
>mana
  
  Remaining Mana Points:    387
```Mana cost on 912 is back up to 12 mana
acoustic hull
#

Any consideration toward a quick migration window in lieu of updating GST? 🙏

dusky hatch
#

Quick, everyone get your mutant services dones! 😉

acoustic hull
#

I wouldn’t mind a service point drain (to 0) in exchange!

limpid geode
tough flame
# coral spade Carns cry is the literal example of a set up before setups, something alot of fo...

I don't think there's monolithic agreement on some of these ideas. One area where I'd break from Vaemyr and, apparently, you is that you two seem to have a built-in presumption that everything needs to be disabled. If my AoE hits 50-65% the room, I'm perfectly content with that and move on to the killing part. (I'd better be content with it, in fact, because valravns are outright immune to 316.)

Now, in fairness to Vaemyr, he's right that leaving things like gigas disciples not disabled for 3 seconds equals death. But, of course, that's why I wouldn't hunt gigas disciples on anything other than a ranger, which is also a thing I'm okay with. Others want to be able to hunt anything with anything, but I don't think that's a necessity and I'm not even 100% convinced it's desirable.

oblique coral
#

Its unfair everyone getting 1 second better on their disablers but wizards still stuck at 1 second, it should be 0 seconds with rapid fire!

violet ferry
#

that's why for me these updates have been nothing but good, I was already counting on my disables only hitting half the targets in the room. AoE versus single target is a crazy different game

nova violet
#

my own unpopular opinion about this is that if I fail a spell cast on a critical target I walk out of the room, running away is caster forcert

night panther
nova violet
#

I am planning to make a list of creatures that are immune to 316 by virtue of their religious nature, please send me clips lol

limpid geode
#

I believe this is how vvrael work as well - AOE magic doesn't fail on them - it acts as if they aren't even there.

analog nexus
dusty rivet
violet ferry
#

This sounds like zaphod beeblebrox in the Total Persepective Vortex

fierce saddle
# tough flame I don't think there's monolithic agreement on some of these ideas. One area wher...

yeah after a lot more thought on things, and good info provided by folks, I dun know if the aoe stuff matters that much, certainly not for vaemyr, 709 is still great, not a lot of RT, but enough to get a moment of breather, and even if an SMR conversion is another nerf to it, vaemyr has 200+ sorc ranks so it should still basically work on everything.

Really I think a lot of my negative thoughts aren't directly spell setup/disabler review related, it's more just looking at the disparity of some kits of empaths, sorcs, bards, wizards to a lesser extent (nothing here that I've seen makes bolting viable in HW or ME). Just in the fact they all haven't had prof reviews their abilities are just a lot more stale, so even when mana cost reductions happen, it doesn't save the fact that they have pretty few options especially when it comes to setups/disablers compared to some other classes. Certainly they have less meaningful options, like sorcerer still has one of the best in 709, but that's it. Empaths have 1108 and 1120, but they don't work against undead unless ya go telepathy. Bards have... 410 with usually under trained spell ranks and 1030 if they are pure spec or high exp. So very very few options there.

I think I was just kinda hoping that more class stuff would be touched overall here, to kinda give a bump in some playstyles to those classes whom might still be waiting 2-3-4-5 years before they ever see a review.

#

I still can't undersay though how big the 212/217 and 413 changes were for giving more options for CS casters outside of just having max CS enhancives and ascension and/or expensive DR spellbooks.

#

I bet 212/217 and 413 have been cast more in the past few days than like the past several years combined, also just so big even to lower leveling characters too where CS margins kinda suck, you don't have as good of stats and such, and you can use these to actually land a lot more spells.

night panther
#

Bolting is entirely viable in Moons Edge and was before this review. I should take my mage back there now and enjoy new 912

nova violet
#

I was just stuck in a room with three stalkers, a thrall, and a kresh and spammed every disabler I know and survived, A+ hahaha

#

actually I didn't open web which I should have but I did 217 and censure twice

night panther
#

Hopefully you had a 335 for cover fire too

nova violet
#

yes the marlu attack helicopter was doing the actual damage while I just threw out disablers

#

I am also finding that single target web is VERY useful with the current success formula, often after a censure (which I need to use anyway for stalkers)

limpid geode
#

why use web after censure? to extend the immobilized time? I'd rather just kill the targets. Maybe low endroll censure stun into web immobilize I guess?

violet ferry
#

I really am wondering how much Aoe 413/715 + SMR affect on 413/212/217/715 would close some of the gaps. Since these are your "auto hit" setups, they basically mean that you splash the room with one of these pushdowns, then can web/410/etc. with higher effectiveness. Splashing that over a room would mean you can move on to your more concerting killing with a room full of helpless loot goo sources

nova violet
night panther
#

I would like if 413/212/217/715/1015 imparted an SMR penalty in addition to their combination of AS/DS/TD penalties but that could make em too good idk

nova violet
#

and I don't always land the immobilize on some targets, yeah

#

it's a belt and suspenders situation

#

I really can't let them do things haha

pseudo fractal
nova violet
#

yes, auchand's change to the SMR formula for disablers improved web a lot

atomic patrol
#

Hey all. I'm evoking 519, but not seeing the 2 second rt or the 5 mana rt. I've got it properly set as evoke under incant, is this bugged or do I need an extra step?

night panther
#

Let me go give it a go and see if I have the same experience

dusky hatch
# 
Cloudy wisps swirl about a savage fork-tongued wendigo.
[SMR result: 256 (Open d100: 93, Bonus: 136)]
The wisps solidify into thick strands of webbing that tighten about its body!

Cloudy wisps swirl about an eyeless black valravn.
[SMR result: 283 (Open d100: 70, Bonus: 150)]
The wisps solidify into thick strands of webbing that tighten about its body!```
ez claps
night panther
# 
>pr 519
You grunt a short phrase of dwarven incantations as you prepare the Immolation spell...
Your spell is ready.
>evoke warl
You gesture at a triton warlock.
  CS: +531 - TD: +443 + CvA: +25 + d100: +64 == +177
  Warding failed!
Wisps of black smoke swirl around a triton warlock and she bursts into flame causing 20 points of damage!
   ... 30 points of damage!
   Left eye propelled out of socket by fiery explosion!
   The triton warlock is stunned!
   ... 25 points of damage!
   Flames burn hole in chest exposing ribs!
   ... 10 points of damage!
   Burst of flames to head catches ears on fire!  Yeeoww!
The flames around a triton warlock continue to burn!
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.
>mana
                         Normal  Enhanced
    Maximum Mana Points:    507       507
  Remaining Mana Points:    457
```Yea evoke 519 is not looking updated as described. No mana cost or cast RT reduction.
nova violet
#

you disabled the crap out of that guy's face

atomic patrol
#

Awesome, thanks for the headsup. I swear I just had it work once, and now it's not.

#

Awesome changes, thanks to everyone who worked on these. It's given so much utility for my archer wizard.

pearl creek
#

were the details on 110 pending changes ever provided? I realize it's not live, but I don't remember any mention of how it might be changing

Reduced castRT to 2.
Reduced mana cost to 5.
Additional updates are pending.```
nova violet
#

no, no other info yet on what the plan for unbalance is

dusty rivet
#

"is now self-cast only. enjoy!"

keen cape
#

Unbalance just making you instantly drunk when self-cast would be funny, and disabling.

fringe orchid
coral spade
#

If i dont use set ups, I cannot hit things in HW. Its not a case of easier

fringe orchid
#

That wasn't my experience with my warrior, but I had probably triple your experience.

brittle bane
#

weren't two of the main reasons we had a spell review: 1) spells in general (disable/setups or whatever you want to call them) were terribly unreliable in ascension hunting grounds, and 2) minor circle spells that used CS were terrible vs most critters, especially ascension critters because of the way CS formulas work?

The conversion to SMR leaves us right where started or worse IMO. My wizard is worse off now (I showed that with clips where 410 is still better than 912, and 410 can now miss when it NEVER missed=nerf vs bandits btw... nm ascension critters) SMR formulas weighting spell ranks so heavily create the same problem CS spells did.. I feel forced to go heavy into wizard if I want my 900 SMR spells to work well.. nevermind that I have 54m exp and maxxed every single other magical skill (lores, mana controls, harness power, etc) and nevermind that I have invested thousands of dollars of gearing as a warmage.. I'm expected to just drop that style of play to fit the formulas? (this was never a problem before ascension critters.. you could build your wizard how you wanted and be effective everywhere.. these new formulas force you to build a certain way.. I'm looking at those 917 builds for HW, which are now just fortified with the new SMR spells)

night panther
#

410 was nerfed I don’t think that’s a controversial take. It has also been by far the best magical disabler, in a circle shared by four classes, basically since it was created, I’m not shocked it got got

#

As far as being forced into 900s if you want your SMR spells to work well… yes? That’s how it works. You don’t have to go that path, the heavy MjE path works well too.

My mage is a 127/100/76 guy and can cruise through Moonsedge. Hinterwilds a bit tougher because of the difficulty in using mana leech but I’m going to try again now that 413 is good.

fringe orchid
#

I'm at 101/101 as a Bard, with 2x Spell Aiming. I'm not impressed with the "Spell Power" of my 400s disablers. I'll have to test in HW this weekend, but I expected way better results for having 100% training in relevant spells/skills.

Has anyone with only 10 ranks posted clips in action at cap? I'd like to see your success margins.

night panther
#

101/101 and spell aim is a commitment to the spell working so I agree it ought to have pretty strong results

brittle bane
#

here's something no one has brought up yet and Im surprised... What about post cap experience counting in your level comparison formula vs critters... would that be crazy.? millions of exp over cap should count for something... (it should also count for sheer fear but..<shrug>)

brittle bane
night panther
#

What do you mean drop your AS as a warmage? Who has suggested going below 75 MnE? Where else is your physical AS coming from? 509 scales on lore

brittle bane
#

id be dropping bolting AS which is important to me

night panther
#

Why do you have to do that? I’m honestly lost. This edible is hitting though so that might be it 😂

brittle bane
#

because I dont think 125-127 wizard ranks is enough to make it worthwhile..the reason 709 works so well is because sorcerers mostly train 160+ sorcerer spell ranks.. (without much sacrifice) so you'd have to go in that level of wizard ranks which means dropping to 75 MNE AND dropping below 101 500's

night panther
#

Have you tried it?

brittle bane
#

just keep trying to convince me to play the game your way

night panther
#

I’ll bring my wizard to Moonsedge tomorrow, but he nearly can’t miss 912 in Atoll, with 127 base ranks.

I’m not trying to convince you of anything! Good luck!! 🫡

brittle bane
oak finch
#

Pious Trial (1602) has been updated as part of the Spell Disabler Review.
Converted to use Slowed.

limpid geode
#

I think an important next step might be the availability of an ascension training skill for SMR spell power.

nova violet
#

wait how was it updated?

nova violet
dusky hatch
#

Auto success?

tough flame
limpid geode
# tough flame Spell Aiming already exists!

but is a secondary skill that probably doesn't have a huge impact, especially at ascension amounts - one of those "next tier" ascension skills could be SMR spell power that directly adds primary bonus imo

nova violet
#

I would honestly be interested to see somebody with a comical amount of spell aiming use these abilities

#

like not 2x but 2x + 40 enhancive + 20 ascension

#

see how that goes

whole pumice
#

Combat Maneuvers. But, like, the other kind.

nova violet
#

I know they're out there because it is the logical way to increase bolting power!

whole pumice
#

Guaranteed.

haughty heart
#

Ask Altheren

limpid geode
#

the 410/912 wizard stuff I was posting last night was with 126 wizard ranks and 257 spell aim ranks - it was decent but not impressive imo

dusky hatch
#

It’s all a ploy for us to buy spell books at DR

night panther
nova violet
#

ah, that's very good context

whole pumice
tough flame
#

This probably merits its own separate thread, but a portion of this community keeps coming back to things like phantom levels post-cap, phantom spell ranks (or the equivalent thereof), and other things that basically bypass hard caps that are in place by design.

It's fascinating to me--which isn't me saying it's right or wrong, but just that I'm intrigued why it keeps happening. It's even more curious to me what people would expect if such things did happen. There seems to be an implicit assumption that these sorts of gains would be achievable for either an average player or a moderately-above-average player, but, in actuality, the Ascension system as it already exists right now has extremely heavy exp requirements by the standards of the large majority of players.

limpid geode
whole pumice
nova violet
#

there is this design problem where mobs busted the level cap and thus achieved advantage in a bunch of level-based tests and so naturally players want to do the same thing

#

arguably the point of busting the level cap for mobs was to give them advantage in level-based tests

whole pumice
nova violet
#

and so if we did build 15 phantom level ascension

tough flame
#

Creatures have been way overleveled since the Scatter, though.

dusky hatch
nova violet
#

we'd just end up with level 130 creatures

whole pumice
#

I think ascension phantom levels are interesting. I also think they should be so punishing to get that like four people would have them.

nova violet
#

they already are because we said "ascension" haha

limpid geode
#

ascension seems to be the correct answer to bridging the gap when it comes to ascension hunting...rather than bumping up the spell's effectiveness. If it's already 100% effective against level 100-105 targets, I think it's doing its job...and then ascension training should be the solution to ramping that effectiveness up higher. It's hard to improve the spell to be good in ascension areas without making it too strong below that, right?

whole pumice
#

A disabler is more binary. Making it effective at things +10 doesn't have to matter for things at like-level

#

(Referencing only your last sentence)

coral spade
nova violet
#

I think I basically agree with leafiara that there is already a built in way to buy more spell power with ascension, by getting spell aim

#

and also that if you are in the hardest areas in the game fighting multiple enemies solo such that you must land a disabler on 100% of the enemy targets to survive then it sounds like you have accepted a certain risk of death

coral spade
#

The gains are probably trivial, but trivial can add up. I keep pumping cman asc because trivial gains add up

nova violet
#

and also, as I mentioned last night, even 100+ SMR bonus isn't going to keep you alive consistently in those situations because of the open roll

limpid geode
# whole pumice A disabler is more binary. Making it effective at things +10 doesn't *have* to m...

can you explain that further?

I imagine progression kind of like this:
You cap and your disablers are only 80% effective against level 100 targets.
You train to like 2x cap and learn the important skills and now your disablers are 100% effective against level ~105 targets.
You go hunt in an ascension area and your disablers are again only 80% effective against level 110-120 targets.
You train a bunch of ascesion skills and now your disablers are again 100% effective against level 110-115 targets but 120 remain 90% success.

Something like that with the numbers, give or take, makes sense to me. There's a reason ascension (system) and ascension (hunting) share the word ascension imo!

dusky hatch
#

I'd be surprised if any normally trained spellcaster has issues knocking down creatures in OTF/Nelemar/etc, where I think 100% success (or very close to) is a fair expectation. But I expect to have to try a few times on a gigas disciple or similar. That's why I open up on them with dispels instead of knockdowns to try and counteract the spell threat - then proceed with debuffs/lockdowns.

analog nexus
whole pumice
coral spade
#

Id also say…we dont know what the charmstones system is bringing. And possibly asc tier 2 after that. There may be many areas to achieve this kind of growth there

limpid geode
#

I have to admit that if spell aim is as effective as it is for 320 (which was designed by Estild, with 1 cleric rank = 2 spell aim ranks), you can probably get +20 bonus to your spell SMR by getting +40 spell aim ascension. That probably bridges the gap in most cases...but for most of us that's damn expensive lol. At 3x cap, getting things to even +20 Ascension is a huge ask.

tough flame
#

Just to be clear, I'm not opposed to some kind of Ascension Spell Power skill. On the contrary, A) I'd take almost anything new in Ascension at this point and B) I assume it would benefit me more, and by a very large margin, than the people actually asking for it.

I just have trouble imagining it happening, at least for now, considering the consistent messaging we hear about why nothing's been done with Elite/Legendary Ascension yet. (Namely the desire to finish all profession reviews first.)

coral spade
#

Also class reviews yet to be done. There is alot of not yet in place pieces.

But i could see a charm that boosts all SMR aoe rolls by +5. That sounds neat to me

analog nexus
#

I don't have clarity around the new intended combat experience for several classes to provide usable feedback vs level 100 or lvl 130 mobs.

I also wouldn't discount the feedback from those playing more edge case builds.

whole pumice
oblique coral
#

I mean there should always be some risk involved in ascension hunting, going in at 4x cap and ewaving 100% seems counter to ascension's purpose of being a challenge. The debate is whether that is 99% or 60%.

coral spade
#

I most definitely died 3 times yesterday

nova violet
#

99% isn't on the table, to be clear, 95% is (which is literally five times worse)

night panther
pearl creek
tough flame
limpid geode
#

I do think it would make a lot of sense for spells like 212 and 413 to proide a SMR debuff. If CS spells are being converted to SMR, I don't see why TD debuff spells can't debuff both TD and SMR. You still wouldn't get to 100% but it would be an option to bridge the gap at the cost of time and mana.

oblique coral
#

They should definitely give us spell rank ascension....

analog nexus
whole pumice
nova violet
#

man I forgot that we were told charms is next haha

whole pumice
#

(Receipts!)

nova violet
#

I'm a terrible envoy!

coral spade
tough flame
oblique coral
analog nexus
#

They keep the lights on though 😄

limpid geode
#

as long as they stack who cares 😛

whole pumice
oblique coral
#

(Is a hypocrite for being addicted to Hoy's smelly holy socks)

tough flame
#

I would never dare speak the words "who cares" in GS after seeing things like the archery updates, bard review proposals, etc. Some niche thing is gonna getcha! 😄

analog nexus
#

Side note: by now Hoy's socks should be a legendary item on the wiki

oblique coral
#

I would love to see an entry on how many unique clerics used em

rotund nest
#

Maybe this was intended, but 417 no longer removes flaming aura 1706 from critters. Before the recent changes it used to

humble moth
nova violet
#

GEMCHARMS

fierce saddle
rotund nest
#

Bugged it

reef condor
wary pond
#

did something just change with lullibye, it has misfired 3 times in a row in the last couple minutes

brittle bane
#

I never said I expected 100% success in HW..... I'll repeat what I said: These changes nerfed my character... what used to be 100% success hunting BANDITS, is now WORSE... so obviously, its ALSO worse in HW... the whole point of the review was to make disablers better in HW....(and keep them just as good or if not, better in level 100 content? lol)

hazy viper
# 
[SMR result: 169 (Open d100: 73)]
A halfling mugger is buffeted by the dark ethereal sphere and is knocked to the ground.
[SMR result: 128 (Open d100: 33)]
A halfling mugger is buffeted by the dark ethereal sphere and is knocked to the ground.
Cast Roundtime 1 Second.```
Nerf seems a little strong from this clip
acoustic bough
#

Starting today, we'll be releasing a number of updates for spells that disable or debuff targets.

Goals:

  • Improve spell disablers so that magic has options available to set up and disable creatures.
  • Improve support builds for grouping by allowing experience for contributions in a standardized way.
  • Standardize effects and effect durations so combat flows more naturally and players aren’t forced to "take a timeout" for several minutes.
  • Improve Survival training by adding more utility.
brittle bane
acoustic bough
#

Where was it said the changes were to make them better in ascension zones?

brittle bane
acoustic bough
#

Right. But where was it stated the review was for ascension zones?

brittle bane
#

in the many conversations leading up to the decision to have them in the first place 😛 (since the complaint was that, like I said, disablers were weak in ascension grounds...) but you wouldn't know because you're a ranger and they have some of, if not, the best disablers in HW... 😛 (thanks to newly designed spells).. I thought the spell "review" would have newly designed spells that would be equally "disabling" as those..

alpine rampart
#

this is going to contribute nothing, but in the spirit of all of the great mechanics arguers who are no longer in the server... have you considered getting good?

acoustic bough
#

Yeah I'm sure my 135 ranks + single target disabler should be comparable to your 67? MnE and aoe disabler!! I don't think 611 has even been touched yet, doesn't have the mana or cast time reduction, and I don't think its on the new spell power.

covert pewter
#

I don't really find the argument that someone should be able to 100% hit all foes with an AOE despite a 5 to 10 level gap and suboptimal skill or spell training to be persuasive.

#

If that is not a fair read of the argument, it is how it's coming off.

brittle bane
acoustic bough
#

I like how you keep bringing up HW yet all you've tested on is bandits.

brittle bane
brittle bane
acoustic bough
#

It's also now SMR which has more factors than just your spell power vs their td.

night panther
#

I think 410 being near 100% success rate for ten spell ranks worth of investment was a good ride while it lasted

brittle bane
covert pewter
brittle bane
covert pewter
#

Elemental Wave was always due for a revisit. I think the changes have largely preserved the feel of the old spell while not making it strictly better than virtually every other disabler with far less investment.

dusky hatch
#

912 got lightyears better

olive hatch
#

The changes to 212 make it awesome. The flip side being that critters with it seem to really like it now, too.

covert pewter
#

With the way disablers work now, I definitely feel more of a yen to go back to Ascension creatures and reduce the number that simply don't affect them. I do think that they'll probably have some max duration cap that separates them from other creatures though.

#

Nothing is in the works on that front, but I do have the desire to review them.

brittle bane
# covert pewter Elemental Wave was always due for a revisit. I think the changes have largely pr...

one of the reasons.. I don't bother hunting HW is because there's no challenge or skill involved when everything is RNG.. i can try to anticipate and use all my tools as best as I can but if my spells don't work, what's the point? I shouldn't have to train heavy into only 1 spell circle and make the other 2 circles worthless... I thought the spell review was gonna be a redesign of all the minor circles to be up to par with new spells like the rangers got, and psm3 like squares and semis got... 912 got better.. yes... but its still worse than my 410.. which makes it moot... I can see the results on bandits.. not gonna bother going to HW where it's still all RNG...

glacial fern
#

It's wild to me that every time the GMs change the way something has worked for 30 years they are still shocked that this playerbase responds reactively

covert pewter
#

I'm not surprised.

night panther
#

Are they shocked, though?

night panther
rough swift
brittle bane
covert pewter
#

There is a lot that I don't even try to revisit because I know the outcry would be unpleasant, even when it would significantly improve things in the long run.

night panther
#

Make encumbrance affect archery RT. Get rid of soft RT. Let chaos reign

acoustic bough
#

Do it! Shouldn't be arching when encumbered anyways. Just asking to be killed.

covert pewter
#

It'd be inaccurate to say that we aren't aware of player concerns.

brittle bane
night panther
#

Yes, 410 was nerfed

hazy viper
#

Is it really skill if you're just running a script to react?

acoustic bough
#

Sounds more like bandits were buffed. They deserve it with the atrocities being commited against them.

glacial fern
#

That's fair. I guess I assumed you folks didn't anticipate this reaction because there was no messaging ahead of time to prep folks for nerfs

rough swift
covert pewter
#

I don't feel like announcing all of the details in advance would have been smart.

olive hatch
#

I'm still working through the 410 changes, and tailoring how to work through that in some places, but mostly, I like what's been done

alpine rampart
#

glances back at bard review

brittle bane
night panther
#

You're alt-tabbing all eight characters? Impressive

hazy viper
#

Where's that anchorman I don't believe you giphy

acoustic bough
alpine rampart
#

30 year old mechanics are like 30 year old "bottle aged" whiskey, you can pretend it's better but the reality is it's just 30 year old southern comfort

glacial fern
#

I didnt say you had to release all the details in advance. It doesnt seem like you folks had all the details figured out in advance so that wouldnt have been possible anyway. I do think it would have been helpful to let people know that hey as part of this review we are going to review ewave. You said it has clearly been in need of a review for a while so that would have been helpful to communicate ahead of time

humble moth
#

Can you even share bounties with 8? I thought the limit was sharing with 5, making it a group of 6 max

covert pewter
#

Now, let's move on to breakage.

violet ferry
night panther
#

Monks win again!

acoustic bough
covert pewter
drifting marsh
alpine rampart
#

ah breakage, a category where my super rare pure coraesine can finally compete on stats vs new materials SCfloppaSAD

drifting marsh
#

So breakage is going to be the new warrior service update right? only warriors get to fix weapons?

humble moth
#

I can't wait to start selling 5x fusion longbows for 5m again.

dusky hatch
# 
>912
[spellcaster]>incant 912 
Your vision is clouded by the haze of raw elemental energies as you prepare Call Wind with a crisp gesture and the utterance of a practiced phrase...
Your spell is ready.
You gesture at a niveous giant warg.
A gust of wind tugs at your sleeves.  Suddenly, a fierce wind rips through the area, scattering everything in its path and making it difficult to remain standing.
[SMR result: 160 (Open d100: 57, Bonus: 20)]
The wind buffets a niveous giant warg violently!
[SMR result: 116 (Open d100: 45)]
A bloody halfling cannibal is knocked out of hiding by the gust!  The wind knocks a bloody halfling cannibal off balance and he falls over!
[SMR result: 189 (Open d100: 89, Bonus: 20)]
The wind buffets a tattooed gigas berserker violently!
[SMR result: 121 (Open d100: 16, Bonus: 20)]
The wind buffets a heavily armored battle mastodon violently!
[SMR result: 134 (Open d100: 41)]
The wind knocks a niveous giant warg off balance and it falls over!
[SMR result: 159 (Open d100: 61)]
The wind knocks a grim gigas skald off balance and she falls over!
[SMR result: 121 (Open d100: 20, Bonus: 20)]
The wind buffets a tattooed gigas berserker violently!
[SMR result: 167 (Open d100: 54, Bonus: 20)]
The wind buffets a grim gigas skald violently!
[SMR result: 170 (Open d100: 73, Bonus: 20)]
The wind buffets a brawny gigas shield-maiden violently!
The wind then subsides.
Cast Roundtime 1 Second.```
glacial fern
#

From a player perspective, the rapid iteration on Spell Power / SMR strength post-release is an example of a detail that seems like it was not figured out well in advance. Great that you folks can respond quickly but doesn't give the impression that everything was figured out well in advance

alpine rampart
#

The development team is reactive towards whinging, hence changes

dusky hatch
#

Seems fine on my 153/75/75 warmage build. 🤷

night panther
humble moth
#

I'd rather they react, even if it means something net new, and potentially more changes, in an attempt to make folks more satisfied with the changes, rather than pushing them out and closing themselves off to feedback.

brittle bane
#

so we should've expected nerfs? now we're moving the goal posts.. I expected all spells to become more reliable.. especially in HW.. if my spells are less reliable hunting bandits.. what will I expect in HW? obviously worse... was anyone expecting nerfs?

dusky hatch
#

Have you considered actually..just trying it? Playing with all the new options? That clip above is my archer warmage with 0 spellaim enhancives running solo.

brittle bane
covert pewter
humble moth
#

I'd love to see MAX(Spell Aiming , CMAN) to make it a little more forgiving for semis... Just throwing that out there...

dusky hatch
#

Buffed 912, 412/413

brittle bane
#

912 went from being worthless to still being worse than 410...

acoustic bough
#

But the only difference between creatures is their level, so you know why go test....

dusky hatch
#

idk how you can look at my clip above and still say 912 is worthless. 100% succes at things up to 9 levels above me.

brittle bane
echo aurora
#

I think the <release> model is designed to get to a good middle. Release something, overshoot it and maybe overtune it a bit, pull it back, and folks feel better about the result... even if staff hit the nail on the head with the release, we'd all probably still be asking for modifications.

humble moth
alpine rampart
nova violet
#

I would say I was generally not expecting nerfs but I didn’t have 410 to anchor my expectations lol

night panther
#

There were people complaining when the mana calculation was changed which... resulted in characters getting more mana.

echo aurora
#

I'm feeling pretty decent about where things are on my 84 mage having messed around a bit. That being said, I also have trepidations about how the changes have impacted/will impact pay items, where I do think we pay for higher chances of success. But I'll stop beating that drum now.

nova violet
#

genuinely I didn’t know that everybody else had a disabler that proned and staggered everything 100% of the time for 10 mana, this is why minor spiritual is the worst circle

brittle bane
#

give the 500's an SMR spell.. change 512 to SMR.. or 504...

humble moth
#

No, we need 413 to 512 to 912 for hard stuff...

#

413 to reduce TD, 512 to reduce SMR, 912 to actually make things hittable with anything we have.. With 3 required setups for harder critters, that's why I was asking for a further mana reduction on 512

glacial fern
#

I think the 410 changes are less of an issue for classes like wizards that have a ton of options and more of a problem for bards and rogues who don't have other AoE spell disablers available

humble moth
#

Bards had a good AoE SMR spellsong lined up during their review...

brittle bane
#

we say we want diversity in builds.. but if you wizard.. you should go heavy wizard ranks for HW or not complain..

acoustic bough
#

They have spell books 😂

night panther
#

Bards probably feel the 410 nerf more than any other class I'd imagine. Rogues have uhhhh rogue stuff I'm not really familiar with. Eviscerate? But for bards, open 1030 vs crittable stuff can stand in for ewave kinda. Against non-corp? Yeah you want your ewave working

nova violet
#

Rogues have eviscerate, yes

brittle bane
rough swift
#

Rogues who hide have eviscerate. If you're a rogue who doesn't hide, like me, then yeah, you make do.

night panther
humble moth
#

With MnE hindrance with Aug chain, I never really considered 410, I'd rather 1005 multiple targets.

night panther
pearl creek
#

single target web got worlds better for folks with MnS. It's actually usable for me now that it's not warding.

Armor casting that aug chain Whirlin!

echo aurora
#

I know that most of the folks here are capped -- but my wizard is 84, uphunting in Atoll (warlocks are 94), so 10 levels below. I'd say I have a non-descript build. And, now with 912, I can make knockdowns [SMR result: 128 (Open d100: 64)] -- being able to uphunt like that is nice -- which is suprising to me given the level difference.

humble moth
brittle bane
dusky hatch
#

501 also got a pretty significant buff, in the form of a mana cap.

humble moth
#

501 wasn't working the other day, since it still required a ~145 endroll to actually apply unconscious

#

And, even then, unconscious was adding some additional commands even if I woke up the target prematurely

nova violet
#

Let’s get stone fist SMR

#

Everybody loves that

covert pewter
valid comet
#

This sounds absolutely awful for warding (assuming you mean CS based attacks). 70% chance for success on like level for almost all sorcerer spells sounds like a crazy rewrite and adjustment to gear. So before I go Chicken Little, any chance you could provide some more insight on what you're thinking?

nova violet
#

That got a little deprecated but also, estild’s statement said it would take the better of the two

dusky hatch
#

Raising the floor for off circles

valid comet
#

The sky is not falling (today). Thanks y'all.

violet ferry
#

Both my wizards are built for 500's CS and I like them. 504 and 512 together are pretty effective at making a room less dangerous. But that's part of why I'm asking for 413 to be given an AoE option

brittle bane
nova violet
#

I might unpin that since I am not sure if it is still operative

nova violet
tough flame
#

I'm pretty sure I unironically don't have a 70% CS success rate on any profession against valravns.

night panther
#

Evoke 413 for an AOE version (just bump mana cost up to match 217) or something. Also let's get 212/217, 413, 715, and 1015 to impart SMR penalties. Setups for your setups

violet ferry
#

yeah, that's largely what I was thinking

valid comet
dusky hatch
violet ferry
#

I don't recall if 1015 was on the "auto-hit" train, if it wasn't , it probably should be.

nova violet
tough flame
night panther
#

Do I have to log in and go cast 317 at a deathbird

coral spade
nova violet
night panther
# 
Your spell is ready.
You gesture at an eyeless black valravn.
Particles of dust and soot rise from the ground at your feet as you release a pulsating, platinum ripple of energy toward an eyeless black valravn!
  CS: +565 - TD: +490 + CvA: +25 + d100: +50 == +150
  Warding failed!
  The black valravn is cloaked in a blinding platinum light and assailed for 58 points of damage!
   ... 35 points of damage!
   Awesome lash of plasma severs the black valravn's arm completely!
   The black valravn is stunned!
   ... 10 points of damage!
   Tendons in the black valravn's weapon arm snap.

** A swirl of alchemical fire, scintillating blue and orange in hue, erupts from your fireleaf staff! **

   ... 15 points of damage!
   Burst of flames to right arm toasts skin to elbows.
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.```We did it *results not typical
valid comet
# 
  Warding failed!
 ... and hits for 24 points of damage!
An eyeless black valravn is suddenly engulfed in flames of pure essence!
   ... 30 points of damage!
As the radiance dims around black valravn's body, its shadow stretches long and strange as unsettling silence fills the air.  Heralded by a sound like the stirring of great wings, the noise of your surroundings crashes back down upon you, more noticeable for its brief absence.
An eyeless black valravn tumbles to the ground, landing in an awful tangle of talons and feathers.
You feel 8 mana surge into you!```
dusky hatch
#

Yeah I've heard some grumbles about "setups for setups" but tbh I think the debuff 'em to heck game is fun. Granted, that's sort of at the core of rangers anyway - but I think it's hilarious to see my squad drop 909 stomp/912/1614/612/217/carns cry all at once

nova violet
#

Gee whiz billy how come duskruin lets you have 565 CS

tough flame
night panther
pearl creek
#

the enhancives were free? Nice! 😛

glacial fern
#

oh right supremacy. was trying to figure out how you got it that high

night panther
tough flame
#

Yeah, I'm 35 cleric CS, 40 ranger CS, and 78 sorcerer CS under the marks other people are sharing. 🤣

night panther
dusky hatch
#

My ranger isn't even CS optimized! Although he is the best race, and I do have enhancives. No ASC wisdom yet though.

covert pewter
#

For me, hunting is way more fun since the review.

#

I'm feinting a lot less thanks to 912.

alpine rampart
#

wizards can feint?

TIL everyone can feint, missed opportunity for warrior guild service

glad lotus
#

For ~30 cman points?

tough flame
#

Wizards can Feint in 1 second without even needing qstrike!

alpine rampart
#

styubbid wizards 😮‍💨

broken knoll
#

Any bonus to these disablers casting in offensive?

violet ferry
#

who cares about how fun it is, I like that it's now like 20% more efficient. Those kinds of gains mean something.

humble ore
# covert pewter For me, hunting is way more fun since the review.

Agreed, I generally like the progression of classes becoming more like Rangers post update and Squares post PSM3. I find my one trick pony stick holders to be a massive yawn by and large, so appreciate the spice immensely. The more pieces I have to put together to take things down and the more I can combine and switch those pieces, the more fun I'm having.

coral spade
#

I like having a tool belt of options, and picking the right one for the job

dusky hatch
# 
[SMR result: 178 (Open d100: 70)]
The wisps solidify into thick strands of webbing that tighten about her body!

 ** Numerous sigils along your sigil-carved staff abruptly flare to brilliance!  Pale energy surges from each, twining into an echo of your last spell... **

Cloudy wisps swirl about a grim gigas skald.
[SMR result: 130 (Open d100: -77, Bonus: 100)]
The wisps solidify into thick strands of webbing that tighten about her body!```
Lol. Not the most effective sigil proc, but funny that the first web saved the negative roll of the second
humble ore
#

I think the only ranger spell I don't use often now is 614, I want my purse and near pures to be that interesting

dusky hatch
fringe orchid
covert pewter
peak shoal
# tough flame This probably merits its own separate thread, but a portion of this community ke...

I'd say the whole conversation here has pretty much been monopolized by those that have made it to a point in the game that a pretty big majority of players are unlikely to ever get to. These types of people have spent a lot of time and energy dominating the rest of the game, it's only natural they'd be looking for ways to do the same in these last areas... even if it means lobbying for mechanics changes (nevermind that these areas were designed to be difficult for exactly this segment of the population).

I'm just glad that, so far, GMs doing reviews haven't been ignoring the leveling and early capped experiences, even if that sometimes means the most vocal on Discord don't get what they want. That certainly can't be said for some other games I've played over the years.

fringe orchid
#

I need to go back, because there were a few things I'd like to comment on. But I'm looking at equality/balance for professions. That includes comparing how effective Squares are at disabling, vs Pures vs Semis.

Pure disablers just flat out didn't work while Squares were employing PSM tactics with great success. While in full plate.

It's not so much, give them their way, it's more that things should be relatively equal/balanced.

fringe orchid
broken knoll
#

Squares are slow, have to open all of our disablers in offensive and really seems to be a I want it both ways kind of comment

fierce saddle
#

I don't know if it was ever answered, is stun rounds, that you get from various stuff, part of the new durations system, aka does survival reduce the amount you are stunned for?

fringe orchid
#

What I'd like to see is data.

A warrior with maximum training has X chance of success disabling creatures A, B, C.

A pure with maximum training has X chance of success disabling creatures A, B, C.

Are they comparable? Should they be comparable? The square has full plate to rely on if there is a failure. What does the pure/semi have as backup?

Do the comparable success rates take equal amounts of experience to achieve the same results? If Pures require 2-3x more experience, shouldn't they have a higher success rate?

I appreciate that disablers were addressed. I'm not sure that they're more effective though.

analog nexus
broken knoll
#

Warrior disablers also are 4 seconds hard RT for Bull Rush and Shield trample, in offensive or 2 seconds hard RT for tackle on a single target.

#

DS we're at 265 for KS and 400 on a capped non-shield user. Disir and conjurors in HW or MS swing well past that, not to mention we can't ward with 120 reliably anything a pure can block.

humble moth
#

yeah, but a warrior with KS at 265 takes like, 4 damage off of an 8000 endroll versus a pure taking 8000 damage for a 104 endroll.

analog nexus
low mango
#

It was apparently the correct choice, from what I've observed

#

Loving the changes to Web and Bind, btw

broken knoll
#

Web seemed really significant with the dual mana decrease

covert pewter
broken knoll
#

Mind explaining the changes and how it works specific to 410?

nova violet
#

410’s success rate is based primarily on minor elemental spells known and level, with a smaller bonus for having spell aim

#

And then it gets a flat bonus compared to other SMR spells for being a disabling AOE spell, and then some kind of specific bonus for people with fewer spell ranks so that people who just had enough ranks for it can still have some success

covert pewter
#

410 also definitely has a minimum effectiveness that is pretty generous, to try and preserve the viability of some pre-review builds.

analog nexus
broken knoll
#

So the change is reliance on light spell ranks for a powerful effect vs. the average pure?

fringe orchid
broken knoll
#

Estild likes to answer that kind of question, but fair

steep mirage
#

I'm less interested in like level and more interested in efficacy vs 115+

covert pewter
#

Here's a rogue with 10 ranks against like-level:

[SMR result: 152 (Open d100: 84)]
A triton fanatic is buffeted by the dark ethereal waves and is knocked to the ground.

#

I think that is a pretty good chance for 10 MnE ranks only.

fringe orchid
#

So 68% (16+52=68). How does that compare to 75 MnE, 101 MnE, 101 MnE + 1x Spell Aim, 101 MnE + 2x Spell Aim.

covert pewter
#

By comparison, 75 MnE:

[SMR result: 145 (Open d100: 57)]
A triton fanatic is buffeted by the dark ethereal sphere and is knocked to the ground.

keen cape
#

that's kind of smexy.

broken knoll
#

You gesture.
[Spell Hindrance for some smoothly articulated zelnorn field plate reinforced with rolaren is 50% with current Armor Use skill, d100= 41]
Your armor prevents the spell from working correctly.

covert pewter
#

And 100 MnE:

[SMR result: 114 (Open d100: 21)]
A triton fanatic is buffeted by the dark ethereal sphere and is knocked to the ground.

broken knoll
#

Rogues stop at 10 ranks of MnE?

covert pewter
#

The short of it is that you can build into the spell, but its baseline efficacy isn't terrible either.

fierce saddle
#

I think it used to be more popular to stop there for a while until they could then train further up, in a world with martial mastery it's probably less likely to train any spells untill you can fixskill into like 425

broken knoll
#

The rogue comments are from capped rogues. Level 100. My rogue is 44 and hes at 25

fringe orchid
# 
10 MnE:  68
75 MnE:  88
100 MnE: 93
fierce saddle
#

really I think it's bards overall that get the shortest end of the stick, because they don't have any other aoe options other than just killing it all with 1030

broken knoll
#

I like your math Alastir. Why can't I cast with max armor at 475 ranks? Those all look like good percentages. Can you explain that to me?

nova violet
#

Wearing plate does seem like generally a strong commitment to not casting spells

broken knoll
#

Naijin said so.

#

88 and 93% chance on a ability seems really good per Alastir. What is the formula

fierce saddle
#

also really should test out how effective water lore is on the SMR 410, that is apparently still there as a bonus too for improving it

broken knoll
#

The lore seems unchanged, but could use clarity

fierce saddle
#

wish I could play around with these a bit on test, I imagine eventually all of this will get synced there?

Auchand confirmed that the water lore benefit is still there, so it has to of changed to the new formula, because before it was a benefit to smrv1

dusty rivet
#

410 wasn't SMRv1 i don't believe. it was it's own artisan hand crafted seemingly "just work all the time no matter your training or level on basically everything less than 12 levels over you" formula

broken knoll
#

410 seemed to have an auto glitch that people relied on

fierce saddle
#

410 was definitely smrv1

nova violet
#

It was originally its own magical maneuver check right

#

And then it was changed to smrv1

#

But smrv1 also just hits really well which is why everybody kept getting murdered by krynches

fierce saddle
nova violet
#

And so they had to make SMRv2

broken knoll
fierce saddle
#

Geijon, calling things "cheats" is not helping, there's an argument that SSR abilities are "cheats" and they should all move to SMR as well

broken knoll
#

I agree. It's all for the betterment of everyone. The mana cost, disablers and setups are intended to be beneficial. All of it is "better than before" so I've largely avoided commenting

dusty rivet
#

Upon further inspection, it seems that 410 does use the standard maneuver roll. The mechanics were updated a while back but the old calculations were left behind, and I didn't read the code carefully enough to realize that they were no longer used. --Finros, 2012
Looks like you're right. i thought it never got touched cause of well <gestures at this thread>

acoustic hull
#

Any consideration to making 410 auto prone and allow the SMR portion to determine the RT add

fierce saddle
#

I mean, 711 was nerfed, again, it needed to move to stagger to be consistent with everything else, but it probably should have additional RT added to the max end on the spell as well to compensate for player use

fringe orchid
acoustic hull
#

Kinda weird that stagger doesn’t stack on self-inflicted RT but I’m sure players would love that 👀

broken knoll
#

I do really like the math Alastir. What is the SMR result calculation you are using?

pine charm
#

I can say 410 seems to be a lot easier to hit with than 110

fierce saddle
acoustic hull
#

That’s not really how traditional stacking works, though

pine charm
#

which hey can 110 be brought to parity with 410 wherever that parity ends up being.

fierce saddle
#

so this is 77 mne, 2x spell aim no current spell aim enhancives, and 12 water lore:

[SMR result: 110 (Open d100: 14, Bonus: 18)]
A heavily armored battle mastodon is buffeted by the dark ethereal waves and is knocked to the ground.
[SMR result: 117 (Open d100: 22, Bonus: 18)]
A tattooed gigas berserker is buffeted by the dark ethereal waves and is knocked to the ground.
[SMR result: 137 (Open d100: 39, Bonus: 18)]
A tattooed gigas berserker is buffeted by the dark ethereal waves and is knocked to the ground.
[SMR result: 252 (Open d100: 147, Bonus: 18)]
A grim gigas skald is buffeted by the dark ethereal waves and is knocked to the ground.

You gesture at a flayed gigas disciple.
A wave of dark ethereal ripples moves outward from you.
[SMR result: 111 (Open d100: 43)]
A flayed gigas disciple is buffeted by the dark ethereal waves and is knocked to the ground.
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.```
acoustic hull
#

It’s like running off concurrent “stacks” of RT instead of sequential

nova violet
fierce saddle
# nova violet that seems very solid

it's certainly usable, but I wouldn't risk it on disciples over just hitting with something that doesn't have a 30% failure chance, just cause discpiles are that dangerous

nova violet
#

reasonable

#

disciples are 113

fierce saddle
#

what I actually think would be neat, is to have a single target version, with the same single target bonuses web has or something

fringe orchid
#

I wonder if the 18 bonus is from the water lore.

fierce saddle
low mango
#

So, initial thoughts as an uncapped empath: The Web change is incredible. The 1108 and 1120 changes are less than inspiring, especially 1108. That spell needs a more thorough rework than a reduction in cost from 8 to 5.

dusty rivet
#

I have no bonus casting 410 with 75+ water lore

nova violet
#

I think I would agree that 410 is not the right tool for a disciple and you really want some kind of single target disabler

#

and mne doesn't provide that

#

although sorcerer base obviously does

#

and bards have their own single target disablers

fringe orchid
#

A bard would have 1008, but it's a stun, which would immediately be shaken.

1005 would probably not work d/t level difference.

fierce saddle
#

well 709 is not really single target haha

acoustic bough
#

make 706 great again!

fierce saddle
#

but yes 709 will work on disciples, they are basically immune to both stun and webs so those aren't options, 703 can stop dark catalyst but not their pseudo SMR implosion spell

fringe orchid
#

Make stuns great again.

nova violet
#

bards also just have a weapon to trip the guy with or whatever (don't actually use trip trip is a prank)

low mango
#

Trip is awesome what are you talking about

nova violet
#

but 410 seemed to be basically awesome for the problem of "there's a bunch of guys here in this room that I would like to have fall down" if it has a 100% success rate

alpine rampart
#

I think people are forgetting that warriors mostly get good rolls on things only once we go through the additional effort of fully mastering a guild skill for that 6th rank

With 4-5 ranks it's like 80-90's average + the roll on most things same level

dusty rivet
#

it's 10 endroll.

fringe orchid
#

I acknowledge that 6th rank effort, but it's no different then getting millions of XP to maximize spells

And you do have the option to skip the guild and get 5 ranks via CMan

nova violet
#

I'm not sure anybody is forgetting that so much as they literally refused to ever let us do that and threatened to quit the game if they were required to make our guild be useful

acoustic bough
#

I don't think anyone would complain about getting to put in extra effort for a "6th rank".

low mango
#

Not sure how it's different from grinding alchemy for essentially no mechanical benefit

fierce saddle
#

I mean single target, combat bards can sweep, my bard generally sweep, feint (if he needs to stance it), stab, but that works cause all of that is 3 seconds haha

nova violet
#

right

#

bards are semis so I am okay at some level saying "you have 410 for the aoe and you've got shield bash or whatever if you have to handle that disciple"

#

right

fringe orchid
#

If you train shields.

nova violet
#

that's why I put OR WHATEVER

alpine rampart
#

5 ranks for cmans is way worse than 6 ranks for free, I'm just saying if we're comparing baseline rolls for spell disablers vs physical it's not really realistic to count guild skills unless you're subtracting that bonus success rate

fringe orchid
#

I think it is realistic, and the experience difference should make it equal. 3x spells is not cheap. Nor are lores. I'm 2x spells with 2x spell aiming as a bard. Do the math on that experience.

brittle bane
nova violet
#

I don't know if it makes sense to say "you can't include the guild benefit when balancing warriors and other classes but also other classes are not allowed to have a guild benefit"

#

I'm just a caveman but I'm not sure that math works out correctly

low mango
#

But Tikba, Alchemy!

dusty rivet
#

potion of major SMRing
ingredients: eye of koar (not the emerald, his actual eye), a honey beryl, a piece of each moon, dust from the kiramon homeworld

alpine rampart
#

so lemme get this straight people are complaining about only having a 68% chance for 410 to work with literally just the spell learned?

acoustic bough
#

Are they? You referring to the pity party for the people who stop at 10 ranks?

low mango
#

Optional ingredients: Pebbles graced by the wail of a banshee at midnight on the fifth year of the dreadlord's reign; driftwood found amidst the stars; pearl formed when a diamond gets stuck inside an oyster

alpine rampart
#

honestly Nisugi I can't keep straight all of the things that people are complaining about in here

nova violet
#

I can help!

nova violet
alpine rampart
#

In everywhere except ascension areas most pures get to walk around and just spam attack spells instakilling everything, squares are slightly better in ascension areas because they require the same level of attentive hunting squares have to do for their entire lifetime, so pures want the same level of walking around instakilling everything they had for level 20-100, is what it sounds like, lol

nova violet
#

I don't think this is adding much to the discussion

#

and I think we've talked about that before lol

low mango
#

I feel like that's an interesting statement

nova violet
low mango
#

I mean, let's break it down. "Squares do better in hard areas because they're just better players."

nova violet
#

you broke it down and it became less interesting

dusty rivet
#

my feeling on that depends on which screen i'm alt tabbed to currently

alpine rampart
nova violet
#

so

low mango
#

No, I want to hear the rest of this

nova violet
#

that is why they decided to do an improvement to disablers for pures, right

#

the spells you are saying they never use

#

the entire purpose of this thread

#

the spell disabler review

low mango
#

Obviously the spell disablers are for squares, Tikba. It's right in the name: spell

covert pewter
#

Which squares infamously can't do.

low mango
#

I keep telling Jaysehn he's going to get kicked out of the guild if they find out he can read

broken knoll
#

All. This is like...6 days of this. The GMs are doing their best, they are doing the math, a few things didn't translate. Pures, semis. It's getting amended, but also gaps are getting cleared. Let's change the direction. What has been beneficial? I've heard 912, I've heard 118, I've heard all the high ranks, mana cost and AOE.

low mango
#

I'm very happy with the Web change! It was my most-used disabler. In fact if they would like to add 1117 to this review my life would be pretty much complete.

acoustic bough
#

The majority has definitely been beneficial.

fierce saddle
#

I wish web worked in hinterwilds, but everything is too big and is either immune or instant breaks + acts

nova violet
#

genuinely I am feeling like a major undiscussed aspect of this is that certain areas are just really resistant to all forms of disables (HW, sanctum)

fierce saddle
#

still say that 413 and 212/217 biggest winners, (and eventually when 715 mana cost gets reduced to match those which i know is in the works but they need to do the ritual sacrifices to allow touching a sorcerer spell)

nova violet
#

and certain areas (the hive) are much less likely to insta shake everything

dusty rivet
#

912 says hi

alpine rampart
#

You know, I had a giant wall of text ready to post, but really, I just don't care, squares don't have it easy as you all think to seem they do at cap, they just have a lot more practice using their toolkit, I talked about having a variety of spells in here the other day and the response was pretty much "yeah but nobody uses more than like 5"

nova violet
#

and so if you are in the pits or whatever the disabler changes just don't affect as much because the angargeist doesn't care what you do

#

I genuinely don't think it is accurate to say that people generally think squares have it real easy in ascension hunting areas

#

I guess there was a suggestion in mechanics earlier that the hive was easy for squares haha

#

I can't really speak to that

low mango
#

Squares who can cast 319, sure

broken knoll
#

Every disabler a caster knows had it's soft RT reduced. Each spell has had added impact. Leafiara pointed it out and Straichlin responded that. It's being watched and tweaked. I ignored this topic because reactionary responses are toxic

pearl creek
#

not all spells had added impact, but mana cost savings are great and changes are still rolling out as it's evaluated.

low mango
#

Web going to SMR is pretty tight, in addition to the ~67% cost reduction. It is, I believe, the first and only SMR spell that Empaths get. Unless you want to call 125 an SMR spell.

fierce saddle
#

umm... this is exactly the time to test and comment, and argue, discuss, and so on the changes. As long as we're civil about it, there is absolutely no issue raising concerns that a person feels. Now perhaps they aren't addressed, that's ok too, but there is no issue with players bringing up their concerns.

alpine rampart
#

I'm just gonna unfollow this post and go back to pretending it doesn't exist while the mega whales poke dev until they get their way lol

broken knoll
#

The wild ones get banned Vaemyr. As always

covert pewter
#

I generally appreciate you guys remaining civil in this thread.

dusty rivet
#

Hold my beer

covert pewter
pearl creek
#

I mentioned it before, but it seems topical. There are two big parts people are discussing and with the discord format it's fairly easy to lose a conversation about it. Mixing them up and crossing points makes it difficult.

  1. Are people able to succeed in landing a setup/disable. How effective is it vs how people feel.
  2. Does a successful cast of the disable actually accomplish something meaningful. Some ascension areas really shift the nature of this topic because so few inflicted statuses remain meaningful.
nova violet
#

I think dinaden is really on it yeah

covert pewter
#

From what I'm seeing, the review's been met with generally positive response, and there have been a few very focused concerns that we've addressed pretty quickly.

broken knoll
#

and some of our perspectives are as unicorns

fierce saddle
nova violet
#

earlier there was an attempt to distinguish "setup" from "disabler" but I feel like a more meaningful distinction is "this move will make them waste a turn" versus "this move will keep them occupied until I kill them"

#

and a big part of your view of your disabler toolkit is how the area you're in classifies your disablers

#

because it's very creature specific at cap

covert pewter
#

Like I said upthread, my initial numbers were less favorable to players.

brittle bane
#

complaining that skills aren't balanced across the board is not being ungrateful.. its important feedback... if psm 3 setups and ranger spells are more effective than everyone elses.. then.. there's a problem that needs to be addressed

broken knoll
#

Vaemyr is super reasonable

covert pewter
#

I tested 410 and 912 super rigorously and, if I had to do it all over again, I'd probably still come up with the initial success rates and pushed for more room to grow through post-cap training.

broken knoll
#

This warrior jealousy is super strange. Show your math if you want to get into it.

low mango
#

I would like to propose something: Web currently breaks if the target suffers any fire damage. This also burns the target (for a pitiful amount of damage). While I appreciate the 'realism,' it does tend to penalize characters or classes that have fire damage in their kit, and I'm not sure Web was balanced around that.

covert pewter
#

But I'm also happy with the new equation and I'm really liking hunting on my warmage with everything as it is now.

brittle bane
rough swift
#

I'm just a silly square too uneducated for all these "magics" y'all got going on, but I'm just very happy I have a chance to avoid ewave now. It was one of the most irritating spells critters could have, and major ewave was practically speaking instant death for me.

covert pewter
tough flame
fierce saddle
nova violet
brittle bane
rough swift
pearl creek
# covert pewter I tested 410 and 912 super rigorously and, if I had to do it all over again, I'd...

I think the later point here is where I struggled at initial release of the smr conversions. I was missing where the room to grow was beyond more MnS ranks, which was a stated concern with having them be CS initially. Thank you for revisiting and revising it. It's hard to tell if it was actually missing, or simply that I was missing the areas for growth because the change happened quickly.

Currently, web has become used an order of magnitude more for me because it's useful vs a joke against something already not a threat.

fierce saddle
nova violet
#

knowing the spell still gives you a bunch of defense against it tbh

#

that's part of the SMR formula

broken knoll
#

I wish I could avoid implosion 720, but nope, hidden roll random, you die no matter what I care.

brittle bane
#

dexterity should give smr bonus for a lot of spells... (says the halfling)

tough flame
#

I guess we could do thorough testing to find out exactly how much it helps. I wouldn't imagine it helps more than 2x+ PF and 3x Dodging, but maybe it does--never know.

covert pewter
#

If I didn't think that people would find me in my coffin and drive a stake through my heart, I'd love it if AS/DS and CS/TD could be rebalanced in a way similar to SMR. It'd leave a lot of room for Ascension growth against higher level creatures.

I do not see that happening because I like my unholy rest.

fierce saddle
tough flame
#

You could nuke CS and I wouldn't care (in fact, I'd kinda love the entire system to replaced with something else entirely one day), but come for AS over my cold, dead body. 🤣

pearl creek
#

have at the CS/TD changes, but personally I enjoy the AS/DS and SMR systems being different while also impacting each other

nova violet
#

unless they decided to yank that out at some point knowledge of the maneuver provides defense against it for both spells and PSM manevers

dusty rivet
#

oddly i don't i ever remember hearing the spell knowledge was part of SMR1 but it is yeah in v2 it slots in similarly to knowing CMans does for those

nova violet
#

get people used to the concept

covert pewter
#

It keeps GS interesting.

fierce saddle
#

yeah no chance cs/td as/ds changes too much $$ involved haha

covert pewter
#

Dolla dolla bills, y'all.

nova violet
#

you could double the crit divisor for all AGs also so that positive open rolls have room to scale on the crit table

#

this idea just writes itself

rough swift
#

Would they be murder charges if Auchand was already dead? 🤔

acoustic bough
#

Gotta make it interesting. Make crit failures disable the caster.

low mango
#

Make stuns stack

nova violet
#

why has nobody else come up with this plan

broken knoll
#

Where is the TTK script unless this is Final Fantasy XIV and metrics are banned

fierce saddle
tough flame
#

CS kinda has the chance to crit fail since rolling 1 is a fumble.

covert pewter
#

I remember trying to balance AS/DS and CS/TD for Ascension creatures, and it was not fun.

brittle bane
#

the beauty of the cman system is you can pick and choose which abilities you want to have and how effective you want them to be... spell casters have to pick one group of spells over two groups... not the best design because of how strongly spell ranks factor in... if we tied in different lores and different types of skills then you can mimic that pick and choose what spells to strengthen without revamping the entire spell system (as much as I'd love to ditch current CS formula calculations...)

low mango
#

Reintroduce breakage. Sell unbreakable certificates at HESS

pearl creek
covert pewter
#

There's just too much variance in AS/CS at endgame.

fierce saddle
#

it's super hard, because there's like 400 AS difference between a 600as 2x capped fine gear person and like the 1000as of someone with super gear/sk stuff, every enhancive known to existence