#[Official] Spell Disabler Review

1 messages · Page 2 of 1

covert pewter
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🙂

fierce saddle
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while I'm at it though, do you guys have it on your list that 413 looks like it nolonger has a lore benefit and is -20 now and such? If that's intended that's fine, it'll still find a whole lot more use now than it ever did before, but should potentially include that in the changes since the wiki will need to be updated

dusky hatch
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Cool stuff here devs. Excited to play with more routines. I will echo the confusion as to why this didn’t all happen on test though. Seems like the discord squad (providing the majority of the feedback) would likely have been willing to go through the drudges there without breaking things for those less connected folks

#

I know that it was stated to skip test, so I wasn’t surprised - but i still don’t understand 😁

tough flame
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I'm apparently one of the few on the non-GM side who much preferred it this way. 🤣

dusky hatch
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I personally don’t mind, because I’m in here and have the feedback loop. Plus my particular playstyle is pretty forgiving so I don’t mind working through the bumps. I know everyone else could be plugged in, but many choose not to engage in discord, much less know how to navigate it and find the right place. It’s just strange not to use the tools for their purpose I guess

amber fern
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I also dig the rapid change, super fun to see this roll out for so many spells

rotund nest
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This is admittedly my first time testing 530 in years… but, is it intended that 530 does not interrupt critters with a prepped spell, in the same way that 417 does? That’s one of the key benefits of 417 - stopping critters from casting something nasty. I kind of assumed 530 would do the same

tough flame
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230 and 530 have never interrupted prepped spells, no.

crude swallow
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I got 216'd by a triton radical, 106 endroll, and I've been stuck in offensive for hours

#

No debuff showing, have relogged, no change. Good thing we got those invoker pills😂😂🤣🤣🤣🤣😂😂🤣🤣😆😆

fierce saddle
#

have you had someone try and dispel you?
417/119 ?

crude swallow
# 
You momentarily drop your defenses as you focus your dispel to purge any negative effects.
Nothing happens.
Cast Roundtime 2 Seconds.
Roundtime: 5 sec.
R>stance def
You are unable to change your stance.```
fierce saddle
#

dang

covert pewter
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You're fixed.

crude swallow
covert pewter
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I got him fixed. It was just a quirk in how the Immobile/Frenzy stuff was being applied to you.

brittle bane
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lol, already seeing ewave miss on bandits on Drigler. This NEVER happened before....

crude epoch
# 
>hide
[script done]
You trace a simple rune while intoning the mystical phrase for Major Elemental Wave...
Your spell is ready.
You come out of hiding.
You gesture at a brawny gigas shield-maiden.
A wave of snapping and crackling ethereal ripples moves outward from you.
[SMR result: 84 (Open d100: 48)]
A brawny gigas shield-maiden is buffeted by the snapping and crackling ethereal waves, but is unaffected.
[SMR result: 89 (Open d100: 73)]
A withered shadow-cloaked draugr is buffeted by the snapping and crackling ethereal waves, but is unaffected.
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.
>
You attempt to blend with the surroundings, and feel confident that no one has noticed your doing so.
Roundtime: 1 sec.```
brittle bane
#

this is broken: A sphere of dark ethereal ripples expands outward from you. [SMR result: 98 (Open d100: 22)] A half-krolvin thief is buffeted by the dark ethereal sphere, but is unaffected.
this NEVER happened before with a wizard with 101 spell ranks and 2x spell aim 3x emc 50 water lore 3x harness power, etc..

#

did water lore benefit get removed?

acoustic bough
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#1191064189981163611 message

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They are aware that the smr formula isn't where they want it quite yet.

brittle bane
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:sigh :bitemytongue

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🤞

nova violet
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Your vitality returns, rekindling your reflexes.
I've been getting this message since the update and I'm not sure what it reflects

rough swift
fierce saddle
tough flame
#

My take so far...

216, 413, 504, 909, 912, 1016, 1207
I didn't use any of these, but now consider them very strong options.```
```Also winners:
217, 316, 611, 703, 1614
I did use these, but now they're even better.```
```Losers:
301, 512
Despite getting cheaper, 301 is good against fewer targets than it used to be, namely anything that can free itself from immobilization. 512 likewise got cheaper, but 912 got so much better simultaneously that I can't see myself casting 512 anymore. (Yes, I did cast it on occasion. Also, this is just me, as I could see someone who puts 128 into Major Elemental instead of Wizard Base having the opposite feeling.)```
```To be determined:
311, 1219, 1225, SMR spells
The SMR spells are still being tweaked. 311, 1219, and 1225 need more testing on my part to figure out when or if there are scenarios I want to use them and/or would even be capable of successfully using them with monk CS.```
dusty rivet
#

you never used 909? X_x

also not sure if it's been mentioned but 912 looks like 2% stance forced per success margin

mellow dirge
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316 doesn't knock things out of hiding right

tough flame
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I much preferred 410 over 909 because I needed to inflict RT and I needed it immediately. 😄

316 knocks out of hiding. You just have to set it to open cast.

nova violet
#

if it wards, it will knock

brittle bane
#

if you have the mana you can 909 and then 410.. 😛

tough flame
#

That's twice the RT, I ain't doing that!

mellow dirge
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what if disablers had 0 RT?

brittle bane
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stomp makes 909 incur no RT! 😛 not sure if that's gone now though.. I didnt test it

nova violet
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playing around with 217 and open web, it felt fairly good but didn't actually stop a sentinel from snaking me. open web now sends you a bunch of SMR resolutions for enemies that are walking around when you aren't in the room, which is funny to see.

#

I'm not sure that open web in a swarm is better than it was I think maybe I just should have been using it more all along haha

mellow dirge
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only time I ever wanted to use web was in endless and it didn't work at all, I assume it still won't work now given the level difference there?

nova violet
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Endless web is not going to be better than it was

pseudo fractal
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Are 212 and 217 still considered CS spells for the sake of slippery mind? I know brawlers still seem to slip it

The triton brawler's face goes blank for a moment before returning to normal, as he successfully avoids the effects of the magical attack!
Cast Roundtime 2 Seconds.```
acoustic bough
#

Yeah slippery mind doesn't seem to know they've changed to smr. Web is the same

dusty rivet
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how are you casting 217? if you aren't already make sure you're doing it with incant 217 open and not actually targeting the brawler.

pseudo fractal
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I'll switch it up to that

nova violet
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You can also incant set open 217 to always do that

#

I should too!

tough flame
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Got a request to check if lore benefits still apply to 212. The answer is yes.

Now to figure out what else I should test for lore...

Edit: 216's lore benefits also still apply. 413's lore benefits do not apply.

nova violet
#

217 also still has the mysterious chance to cause spell failure based on major spiritual ranks

fierce saddle
#

so my suggestion I think on the SMR formula, is primary factor is spell ranks or level, whatever is higher, with the secondary factor being the mana control of the spell list, so spirit for 100's/200's, EMC for 400's/500's, this gives bonuses to class lists where you might be over trained, but should allow the spells to be usable for people by knowing them.

It should then allow with pushing mana controls up to be the equivalent of a combat manuever reaching 2x CM ranks.

acoustic bough
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semi's can only 1x mana controls, where pures/semis can 2x spell aiming.

fierce saddle
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that should be fine, they can 2x CM and have more physical options to go with spell options, while I don't intend this to make anyone mad or anything, but a pure using spell circle disables should be a little bit better than semis/squares IMO

#

like I think both should be usable, but I do think pures should be a tad higher bonus, because they do not have any physical options available to them, just my thoughts on the manner at least

nova violet
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I used 301 a little also and it just didn’t really provide value in the sanctum (it barely did before, in fairness) so I assume the spell will just not be usable against undead enemies that shake

#

It’ll be good for the 90 levels before that haha

fierce saddle
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think of it as like 75% of the bonus is the level component up to 1x, 10% for going above spell ranks, 10% from 1x mana control 5% from 2x mana control

Something like that as far as formula percentages. Then you just balance so that the 75% works to where you want, and then with trainings and such people can be a bit better

tough flame
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Wait a minute, 504 is AoE?! (I didn't even know this until I was poking around for more things that might have lore benefits.)

Okay, yeah, 512 now looks even worse by comparison since it comes from the same spell circle. Long live 504 and 912!

acoustic bough
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512 blocks maneuvers

tough flame
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Being in RT also blocks maneuvers!
Now I just need the wizard review to hurry up and nerf 950 so I can justify pulling ranks out of Earth lore and go harder on Air.

Edit: Actually, wait. Maybe "being in RT also blocks maneuvers" isn't true. Can creatures use forceRT?

nova violet
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I don’t think any mobs can break out of round time

#

Yet

mellow dirge
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pretty sure high end endless break out from everything in 0.25 seconds

nova violet
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Well they just have super fast rounds right

tough flame
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Okay, so 504 is super great and 1602 will be once they get to it in the review.

acoustic hull
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what would things look like if the spell disabler SMR formula scaled off all magical skill ranks something like runestaff parry

nova violet
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The way current SMR offense works is just by averaging your ranks across all your relevant skills

reef condor
nova violet
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So adding more relevant skills does not, in general, increase your offensive cap unless you can train those skills more (like vaemyr recommended the mana controls I assume because clerics and wizards can 3x their mana control)

tough flame
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It's only 18.75% as expensive as it used to be, basically. 🤣

I actually like things that force offensive stance, just... not for 16 mana like 216 and 1016 were before. Like if I were going to spend that much mana to try setting a creature up for an assault technique or whatever, I might as well just 1030 the thing to death (especially since I need to get past a warding check from the same CS either way). But 3 mana makes some sense.

knotty mesa
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inc 413
Mirage-like distortions surround you as you prepare the Elemental Saturation spell...
Your spell is ready.
You gesture at an ancient phantasmic conjurer.
Your magic is ineffective against an ancient phantasmic conjurer.
Cast Roundtime 2 Seconds.

nova violet
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Oh, that’s rough

#

He must be 11 levels above you

acoustic bough
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More than that no? 11 levels would only be 10% failure chance.

nova violet
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That’s unfortunate since that is the specific situation where you’d really like to use an auto success disabler haha

acoustic hull
nova violet
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It’s only for ascension enemies that you have the failure chance thing

steel shale
nova violet
mellow dirge
nova violet
#

But also estild did a pointy up finger here haha #1191064189981163611 message

nova violet
dusty rivet
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is that not just the "you low-rolled the chance to hit high level stuff with an 'auto hit'" message? i haven't seen the messaging if any for that yet

sleek inlet
knotty mesa
#

even with all that i could barely ward the thing. i ended up imploding it. #sorclyfe

dusty rivet
#

to dispel the 913, and cast 413, 715, sym diminishment turn to page 52
to just implode the damn thing turn to page 68

verbal portal
# 
You focus on the blood pounding in your veins, drawing upon your flesh and your will to prepare Empathy.
Your spell is ready.
You gesture at an Ithzir champion.
Your orase walking stick glows intensely with a verdant light!
  CS: +533 - TD: +439 + CvA: -10 + d100: +23 == +107
  Warding failed!
  The Ithzir champion blinks for a moment, then runs east!

 ** Numerous sigils along your orase walking stick abruptly flare to brilliance!  Pale energy surges from each, twining into an echo of your last spell... **

  CS: +533 - TD: +439 + CvA: -10 + d100: +89 == +173
  Warding failed!
  The Ithzir champion is frozen with fear!
Cast Roundtime 2 Seconds.

>e
[Lake, North Shore - 12064] (u17004085)
You notice an Ithzir champion (immobile).
Obvious paths: north, northeast, west, northwest
```Love the 2 seconds on 1108, but here is a pretty comical example of how unreliable the spell is.
covert pewter
#

That does feel odd.

fringe orchid
# fierce saddle so my suggestion I think on the SMR formula, is primary factor is spell ranks or...

If you use mana control only, it won't work for squares/semis. I would be okay with a combination of mana control + harness power, using whichever is highest trained. I still want to and intend to use 410/435 as a Bard.

I'd like to see something like this:

+1 for Spell Rank, +1 for Spell circle Mana Control, +1 for HP

If total => 2x training: 80%
If total => 3x training: 100%
If total => 4x+training: 120%+

night panther
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Just checked Stamina costs for MnM spells (under Mental Acuity) and glad to see that wasn't missed; they're costing 2x stamina of the new mana costs

#

912 in the hands of my wizard is a whole lot of fun now. Going to hunt my bard shortly and I am pretty worried 410 won't be serviceable as his only AOE crowd control anymore, in which case I'll just use open 1030 and hope for the best

coral spade
#

Morning. We explode yet?

night panther
# 
A sphere of dark ethereal ripples expands outward from you.
[SMR result: 118 (Open d100: 60, Bonus: 15)]
A triton brawler is buffeted by the dark ethereal sphere and is knocked to the ground.
[SMR result: 94 (Open d100: 32, Bonus: 15)]
A spectral triton protector is buffeted by the dark ethereal sphere, but is unaffected.
You feel the unnatural surge of necrotic power wane away.
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.```Lol yeah that's very bad. Cannot at all rely on that now. Level 100 bard with 75 MnE ranks. And that's **with** +15 bonus from Ensorcell, jeez
fringe orchid
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This is making me wish the SMR display was different so I don't have to do all the mathing, and I could visually see exactly what my skills are adding to the roll.
[(Open d100: X, Bonus/Penalty: X) + Advantage/Skill/Whatever you want to name it: X = SMR Result: X]

thin pagoda
#

If I slippery mind a disabler back at the caster, is it considered self-cast for the auto success?

coral spade
#

not adding more to the pile...but this is a critter ewave attempting to hit me

Crackling torrents of spectral energy erupt from the angargeist as it reforms, warping the air as they ripple outward!

[SMR result: 28 (Open d100: 74, Penalty: 5)]
You dodge the disruptive wave with barely a hair's breadth to spare!```
I mean...I"m assuming you don't want me to be totally immune to a level 114 or so mobs ewave. Just sharing some data.
deep thunder
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But you barely dodged that...obviously the next one will get you 🙂

fringe orchid
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I think it would have been cool for some of these to be on a new system, Magical SMR. mSMR. Replace all the physical related things in SMR with their magical counterparts. In terms of offense + defense.

violet ferry
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One of the things I had been curious about with switching to smr is that the old td pushdown skills won't help with them because they still only do td pushdown. Probably makes sense for those to do smr pushdown now as well. And for there to be a mass version of 413/715 (td) to match mass interference and depression. Granted, I still am not so keen on the idea of using a disable to apply a disable, but separately I think any TD modifier should also apply an SMR modifier (or to put it another way, genericize "defense reduction")

coral spade
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Not that pures should play like squares….but disable to enable a disable is pretty common in square world

fringe orchid
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Except for tackle, hamstring ... etc etc

I don't feel like it's beneficial to say, well squares can do this or squares can do that. It's not the same game play and unless you've played both, you really don't have a good understanding of the differences.

coral spade
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I literally said i didnt think they should play the same

fringe orchid
# 
>cman throatchop #1621169129
You chop at a pale scaled shaper's throat with your framea!
[SMR result: 108 (Open d100: -11, Penalty: 20)]
A pale scaled shaper chokes silently, unable to utter a sound!

 ** Cords of plasma-veined grey mist seep from your ghezyte framea and entangle the scaled shaper, causing her to tremble violently! **

Your ghezyte framea suddenly lights up with hundreds of tiny blue sparks!
A sphere of formless black ripples expands outward from you.
[SMR result: 90 (Open d100: 42)]
A pale scaled shaper is buffeted by the formless black sphere, but is unaffected.
[SMR result: 92 (Open d100: 39)]
A deathsworn fanatic is buffeted by the formless black sphere, but is unaffected.
Roundtime: 2 sec.

This would have never failed before.

night panther
#

Ewave is in a really bad spot and I hope it's still being looked at

coral spade
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And you are right, I have no idea what pures play like. And clearly those fails shouldnt be happening.

night panther
# 
Your spell is ready.
You gesture at a flayed gigas disciple.
Your magic is ineffective against a flayed gigas disciple.
You feel the unnatural surge of necrotic power wane away.
Cast Roundtime 2 Seconds.

Abruptly, you sense the attention of your spirit slayer focus upon a flayed gigas disciple.  The pattern of your spell is wrested away from you as the mote of white light flares with blinding brilliance.

A flayed gigas disciple appears distracted.

Your magic is ineffective against a flayed gigas disciple.```Is the 240 re-cast counting as a first or a second attempt here? Also weird messaging - I got Ineffective, 240 re-cast, distracted messaging, then ineffective. Is the second ineffective beacuse it's already distracted?
violet ferry
# coral spade Not that pures should play like squares….but disable to enable a disable is pret...

Yeah, it might be good to highlight the reasons for disables, perhaps. For squares the purpose of the disable is to make your target easier to hit, but on the squishy side it's to avoid getting killed by your target. Is it possible more a acccurate to describe them as setups versus disables? Like in my wizard I consider cold snap pretty essential, but not because it makes targets easier to hit (it does but it's not why I cast it) but instead be because it prevents maneuvers. That's also why I use web, and breeze, etc. it's not for a setup, it's to make it harder for the target to act or kill.

coral spade
violet ferry
#

Yeah, and what little I do with square maneuvers in my group they're setups. They keep the targets on the ground so they're easier for everybody to hit. The wizard handles the disabling with cold snap. But even more so in this review, if you need to disable to reliably hit with your disable which is supposed to come first? It's kinda like the warding problem with a new hat... We needed to ward to apply warding reduction. Ok.. warding reduction abilities hit automatically, good change (grizzled fix pending....) But now these new SMR based abilities are right back in that same paradox

coral spade
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A big factor for squares is we have ForceRT. So for me, staking up 2, 3 second moves immediately is worth it

violet ferry
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Yeah. And if td pushdowns applied SMR pushdown, I could see area web opener followed by some td pushdown, now when the enemies act they have a high chance of getting webbed

coral spade
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Also worth noting, there are squares who still do the old way. Max the AS, the hell with the set ups and just blast everything, That works against 'most' stuff. Some HW and ME critters can't be got that way

violet ferry
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Yeah. That's wizards too. It's rarely worth being graceful when you have high as and cone of elements spam

steep night
native sedge
#

Mana cost reduction is interesting considering how harness power and mana pools have changed over the years. My experience is provably an edge case and I can recall only one time where I ran out of mana this month.

zealous dew
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the thing rogues have always utilized is being able to ewave in a crowd and hide during the cast rt. But if it doesn't work at all we kind of lose something we had to combat more than a few targets

night panther
#

Honestly never been happier I didn't get around to rolling a casting rogue

native sedge
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Also if it takes multiple cast to be effective it is not really a mana cost reduction, but an additional action cost and mana cost

violet ferry
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Yeah that highlights the other thing, which is there are squares that spell still.

night panther
# violet ferry Yeah that highlights the other thing, which is there are squares that spell stil...

I mean 410 is useless on bards now. My bard feels real bad vs more than one mob at this point. 410 was the only reliable AOE CC. I'm tempted to just only fight 1 on 1 with him now. He's definitely going to die more if I keep taking on multiple mobs without 410 in the mix. This is WITH 15 bonus from Ensorcell.You gesture at a triton brawler. A sphere of dark ethereal ripples expands outward from you. [SMR result: 118 (Open d100: 60, Bonus: 15)] A triton brawler is buffeted by the dark ethereal sphere and is knocked to the ground. [SMR result: 94 (Open d100: 32, Bonus: 15)] A spectral triton protector is buffeted by the dark ethereal sphere, but is unaffected. You feel the unnatural surge of necrotic power wane away. Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.

zealous dew
#

I know things are being tweaked but I thought the main benefit was for disablers to be more useful and not a nerf. Hopefully 410/435 is being looked into and tweaked still

violet ferry
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Oh, I think there's no argument from anybody that 410 right now needs love

echo aurora
#

I don't think any of the new smr's are tuned where they want them yet.

night panther
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Just tried 1015 into 410, 1015 doesn't penalize SMR. Would be nice if it got that added to it to match its TD penalty of 20.

violet ferry
regal scaffold
#

Noticing that 417 doesn't seem to remove Dreadsteed flame aura in Moonsedge anymore. Not sure if im seeing failures or what - but mulitple casts aren't removing it.

fringe orchid
# 
[11:40 PM] Auchand: I'd expect the statement of "Hey, we're tuning it" to stall a little of the doom 'n gloom, but... here we are. 😛

[11:45 PM] Auchand: Yeah, I just didn't want to keep hearing about how bad the SMR numbers were when we're taking a peek under the hood.

#1191064189981163611 message

night panther
#

Sure but that makes it even more baffling that this release skipped the Test server

fringe orchid
#

I think maybe they assumed the changes would produce different results than what we're seeing, so now they have to figure out how to make it work.

night panther
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Yeah maybe. My bard is parked until 410 works again

runic zealot
#

feels bad, man

dusky geyser
#

I haven't followed what is going on with this but it sure affected my hunting this morning and for the worse. 912 doesn't help me disable some of the critters anymore in nelemar. Man I really hate change. Happy New Year!...Your character has been nerfed...Again.

fickle maple
#

Willing to give it some time and some trial and error. Some troubleshooting. Honestly these systems seem pretty huge so even with testing, there have to be some big variables that just don’t show up until we get in there and start breaking stuff.

echo aurora
#

Alright, bear with my terrible idea, but here it is: I'd suggest that characters that are hidden should be able to cast spell disablers from invisibility/hiding, with a roll check where they could remain hidden after casting.

#

Wizards benefit; rogues benefit; rangers benefit; bards marginal benefit. I can't imagine it would help empaths, clerics, warriors, or paladins much.

night panther
#

Monks exist too! D:

runic zealot
#

yea! like 5 monks exist!

coral spade
echo aurora
#

Why sus Alastir -- I fully own that I want to have spells from hiding for ranger. But, the ability to disable from invis seems like it would give some actual benefit to Invis. Maybe Invis gives an SMR buff to disablers (instead of staying hidden). I don't know what the point of invisibility is at this point. At least give it a useful combat function.

night panther
#

Being able to disable from invis wouldn't be much of a boon. Literally every creature in GS sniffs out invis almost instantly. It's a fluff spell

echo aurora
#

Then maybe it gives the SMR buff and still pulls you out of hiding (akin to 608 for rangers).

analog nexus
#

Morning all. Is there a summary of what is being evaluated further or changes that went in last night?

night panther
#

The pinned posts should have what's changed

limpid geode
#

everything is still being evaluated, as far as we know

fierce saddle
amber fern
lean folio
#

I haven't tried hunting anything other than low level alts since the changes rolled in and don't plan on it until everything is figured out, heh. Hopefully that is sooner than later; I'd like to hunt my main characters again this week.

Thanks to everyone who is doing all of the active testing and bug finding work while I sit this one out.

fringe orchid
acoustic hull
#

Get out of here bard!!

night panther
# 
Your spell is ready.
You gesture at a bloody halfling cannibal.
Cloudy wisps swirl about a bloody halfling cannibal.
[SMR result: 89 (Open d100: 35)]
The wisps dissipate harmlessly into the air.
Cast Roundtime 2 Seconds.```I feel like I'm going to continue just not using web. What kind of success margin does the average square have with a setup/disabler against a cannibal? What do they sacrifice to have that success margin, versus me having to pump my Minor Spirit ranks (at direct detriment to my base circle CS and profession service bonus) to maybe make this spell reliable?
chrome light
#

< What do they sacrifice >

Squares only have so many cman points to access manuevers, so they lose the ability to use others effectively by having less ranks in that, or simply not be able to use that cman at all....

Would you choose to lose access to disabler X to improve your chances at Web? by taking the stance of "I won't lose ranks in my primary circle" ( which is 110% your own valid choice ) , you are indeed doing such

fierce saddle
#

All the spell smrs are still being looked at, as now they are kinda useless in the places you want/need them, there's a big difference in success margin in cm smr moves and spells, and yeah they sacrifice nothing to be good at things like sweep or bull rush or feignt.

#

If anyone remembers though when psm3 launched there was a similar issue with a lot of physical disables, naijin went in and gave all of them a pretty big boost so that they worked most of the time.

fringe orchid
#

Baseline for WEAPON & CMAN abilities is 3 ranks, which gives 80% success rate?

fierce saddle
crude epoch
#

The minor elemental spell circle is as much the Warrior's, Bard's, Rogue's spell circle as it is the Wizard's and Sorcerer's spell circle. To change the parameters to favor one profession's preferred training path is very much unfair to go about it in light of how it worked previously.

acoustic hull
#

yeah ambush is for all the classes!

fringe orchid
crude epoch
fierce saddle
night panther
fierce saddle
#

I'm basically just talking about like a 5% difference. That's kinda it, everyone whom invests in the spells should be able to be effective.

crude epoch
fringe orchid
# 
Estild: Please don't get into debates on how it should or shouldn't work for specific professions. Overall, the goal is that 410/435 will still be effective.

#1191064189981163611 message

night panther
#

I think post PSM3 GS is a very physical oriented game and trying to shove SMR spells into it may not end up working out unless some changes are made. Pures can and do carve out some specific niches they excel at, but SMR'ifying spells, if it means they have to give up their attack power to use them, ain't it imo.

fierce saddle
crude epoch
fierce saddle
#

100% agree

chrome light
#

< A pure taking more off-base circle spell ranks is losing attack power by doing so >

You are prioritizing the buffs/debuffs available in that spell circle, for sure! A pure has access to 100 more ranks to power than a square has access to cman ranks....you are asking to be all powerful with more ranks in all of the things, and I'm not sure that's how it's supposed to go

fringe orchid
#

My hot take is that, they should work less for someone with 10 ranks than vs someone with 75 ranks. They have explicitly stated that won't happen though.

echo aurora
#

You mean with the minimum effective value?

night panther
#

Meanwhile with 75 ranks ewave is trash

fierce saddle
#

With 100 ranks ewave is trash

fringe orchid
#

I would have created a magical version of SMR, so that you had to train in magical things to be good with the magical disablers. It creates counter-balance with the physical PSM maneuvers. And yes, I know what that does to Rogues, but that would be addressed outside of magic.

echo aurora
#

I think the ship has probably already left the docks, but I would have liked to have seen a PSM3 for magic ... with access to spell disablers that are not specific spells in existing circles, but where each class could access certain disablers. I think the PSM3 model was spot on. And then I would have left the spell reworking for the class reviews.

crude epoch
fringe orchid
#

Spells are the PSM abilities for magic.

night panther
echo aurora
#

But they didn't have to be... they could have had arcane "maneuvers" or "controls".

fringe orchid
#

I don't see the point of doing that. You're asking to reinvent the wheel, but it's still going to look and work the same.

PSM was new.

dusk finch
#

If all the chaos is going to make any of you whales rage-quit and sell your stuff, I'm in the market.

chrome light
#

for me, I geniunely think for the cman vs. disabler effectiveness discussion comes down to trying to make it apples to apples...how many spell ranks equate to ranks..is being 1x in a spell circle going to get you 3 ranks in the big scheme of things?

crude epoch
echo aurora
#

You may not see the point -- but the pure disabler system is not working (hence the need for this). PSM3 makes combat dynamic and interesting, and is accessible by all classes, but favors squares. Your point is a bit like saying, you don't need PSM3 because squares have "Attack." But, in any event, it doesn't matter, my preference for seeing something isn't the direction the game went.

fierce saddle
crude epoch
fierce saddle
#

That wouldn't work though for non pures, so that can't be the formula here

night panther
#

Whether you take 3 ranks of Hamstring or 5 your AS doesn't drop.

chrome light
fringe orchid
fierce saddle
#

Total spell ranks = combat maneuvers, spell list = training the maneuver, where 3/5 is like at 60 ranks or what not.

cunning wigeon
#

Regardless of anything else, I would ask that Spirit Shrouds be reverted please. They were marketed specifically as being useful for squares, Quilic even specifically mentioned KS squares at one point. It was quite expensive, and I even went to quite a bit more expense to win an auction to customize mine. Now, I am not able to hit anything with it. Hope you can address this.

coral spade
fringe orchid
#

That's why it shouldn't be brought up. There are too many differences to compare them in any meaningful way.

coral spade
#

I think the likely answer is closer to something Vaemyr is saying. You need some way to create the equivalent bonus that Combat manuevers provides to squares. And I kinda agree. Its apples to oranges.

What is the skill that all pures train in, to max, with no questions asked?

night panther
#

Spell ranks. Eventually every pure will get 303 spells. Not everyone will necessarily max Harness Power/Mana Controls/etc.

fringe orchid
#

Total spell ranks would create a balance between all professions.
Squares = 1x
Semis = 2x
Pures = 3x

But then you have the Rogues who may only go to 10 MnE. (Bards too while leveling may only go to 430.)

Full spell training for all classes is a post-cap thing.

fierce saddle
#

And soooo many items out there

violet ferry
#

yeah, spell ranks really is the closest direct comparison to cman, with pures having 3 choices of maneuver

coral spade
#

Warriors have basic 2x cman training. Every warrior does this or they are loco. That means that even with 1 rank of say...dirtkick, I can hit like level stuff. That's sort of what you need on the pure side for any kind of equity there.

fringe orchid
#

And guild training is akin to 3x training with the 6/5.

night panther
#

Yeah as a monk I can and do make use of some CMans I only have 1 rank of, because I am maxed on my SMR stuff. Can't do the equivalent as a pure currently. If total spell ranks was the primary factor, you could likely use 118 with 67 MnS spells pretty reliably.

coral spade
echo aurora
#

Animal spirit headdresses are broken too: Clouds of thick night black mist enshrouding your frame and making it appear bulkier, you rear up and tilt your head back with a deafening gnar, your sharp teeth exposed menacingly. [SMR result: 51 (Open d100: 91, Penalty: 2)] An ethereal triton psionicist seems unphased by the frightening display. Night black motes rush away from you, leaving your features back to normal.

fringe orchid
#

The problem with using total spell ranks, is that they want to promote diversity in spell training. (At least for the Pure Elementalist). The spiritualists still train the cookie cutter max CS build.

violet ferry
#

yeah, you'd need to put 202 as the par target for spell ranks, for semis, and then the extra 101 makes it equal to a 6/5. Of course, this still leaves squares with spells out of the discussion

night panther
acoustic bough
#

Cman also has ascension and enhancives where spell ranks do not unless you have $$$$$

coral spade
verbal portal
fierce saddle
cunning wigeon
#

ah, ok, I see this is a work in progress, I will stand by. Thank you.

fringe orchid
coral spade
fierce saddle
#

That's a pretty easy answer tbh if they did spell ranks, feat for squares that just gives a bonus.

violet ferry
coral spade
fringe orchid
#

It's mostly just rogues right, when we're talking squares here. Does any warrior actually use 410

violet ferry
#

but yeah, a feat that just pushes up the effective rank for squares is probably the answer. Or the "minimum effectiveness" essentially. I just think they didn't get to minimum in the scramble last night. A 70% effective baseline 410 would be fine, but that has to scale up levels or it becomes useless if that's only like levels

coral spade
violet ferry
acoustic bough
#

If they use a crossbow or thrown

fierce saddle
#

The other thing could be making level the primary factor, and then all this stuff could be secondary factors.

royal kite
#

This could just be amazing RNG but as we just had a massive number of changes I thought I'd post it here as something potentially worth looking at.

Got hit with a vortex in the Confluence a few minutes ago with the largest open roll I've ever seen in my history of playing the game.

[SMR result: 1623 (Open d100: 13)]
You are buffeted by the russet ethereal waves, and knocked to the ground.
You are pinned in place, unable to move.
... 745 points of damage!
Blow to your back removes the spinal column!

night panther
#

Seems normal, everything's fine. 😵‍💫

violet ferry
#

Level works except that they're continually adding more level 110+ things, which it breaks down, since you can't train for more levels. They'd have to let you ascend up your effective level

coral spade
#

Well. Sounds like a good use of charms.. Each charm = +1 phantom level

violet ferry
#

I'm honestly surprised they haven't gotten there faster (ascended levels)

acoustic bough
#

Sounds like a nightmare based on how rare the good charms are suppose to be.

fringe orchid
# 
You chop at a pale scaled shaper's throat with your framea!
[SMR result: 157 (Open d100: 20, Penalty: 2)]

You reverse your weapon and swing the blunt end down at the knee of a pale scaled shaper!
[SMR result: 150 (Open d100: 33, Penalty: 20)]
A pale scaled shaper crashes to the ground, falling to his knees!

5 Ranks (+127-+137)

vs

75 MnE Spells (+46)

A sphere of formless black ripples expands outward from you.
[SMR result: 123 (Open d100: 77)]
A pale scaled shaper is buffeted by the formless black sphere and is knocked to the ground.
coral spade
fierce saddle
violet ferry
#

given that you'd eventually need to get people up to 115, if each charm was +1, then once the charms themselves hit certain quality tiers you go to +2 and then +3

coral spade
#

To be honest, this was one of the things that came out of the PSM on test procedure. We identified, for example, that hide didn't work vs 110+ critters. That cman couldn't scale to reliably disable anything. etc. This all go worked out in test. TWC too. TWC got adjusted to scale better vs ASC critters. CMan was allowed to get smr benefits for more than 202 ranks. Hiding too. Like this is why it was on test and all of these problems got sorted there

fringe orchid
#

Charms should not factor into any of this, at all. They need to work at a baseline level.

violet ferry
coral spade
violet ferry
#

And I will say we are focusing on a set of spells that fizzled, 410/435 and web etc. But a lot of the changes made last night are nothing but pure buffs, so those are good. We all kinda knew these would be the tough ones

fierce saddle
#

Like copy paste the sigil staff smr, replace Miu with spell circle and see where it is, I bet it would just start working for everyone and we'd all be happy and shush lol.

violet ferry
#

"We've secretly replaced the success resolution algorithm in all gemstone systems with a flat 90% success rate. Let's see who notices"

fierce saddle
#

but like... that's basically how setups work, they are super high success things

fringe orchid
pine charm
acoustic bough
#

Hmm wonder if spell aiming now factors into 611's smr success or if it's a different formula entirely.

pine charm
pearl creek
fiery wing
#

Does anyone besides me use 214 (Bind) with any regularity? I tested it out last night and the ethereal Pirate Captain berserked out of immedately, every single time. And I don't remember it happening with that kind of immediacy or regularity.
I like Bind because I hunt with a Wizard partner, and besides the DS pushdown, it gives him a chance to fire off a few times without risk of being squished. (And I need DS pushdown on NCU because my Wither just doesn't do enough damage to be worth the cost; I typically fare better with web bolt...which was also being constantly broken, when it also wrapped the web around the Captain.)
(and yes, I know that the undead pirates are the worst)

rose ore
#

ewave 😦

steel shale
#

Making things super high level screwed too many things up. So many systems are largely level based. I hope that everything at least gets tweaked to be the same effectiveness it was, and then simply more effective against the higher level stuff.

#

I don't know exactly how SMR1 worked with ewave, but I do know that level was the bulk of its power, and spell ranks/lores were just a minor bonus. This allowed for it to be effective the moment you learned it.

#

But if it has a 70% effectiveness against like level stuff, that's pretty bad for a disabler.

acoustic bough
# pine charm I seriously doubt it....

Yeah comparing 10 results from the 23rd with a spread of 115-141 with 135 ranger ranks and 10 results from today with a spread of 115-134 with 135 ranger ranks and 2x SA. It looks like 611 isn't using the new formula or I would expect to see a difference of 135 vs 168.5

pine charm
coral spade
vital umbra
#

He said like-level. Ascension mobs aren’t like-level.

coral spade
#

Fair. Like level is like 95% for me

steel shale
#

Yeah, we have to remember not everyone is capped, either.

fierce saddle
#

like level is close to like 50-60% with these currently, the highest level stuff I would need an open ended roll to hit

steel shale
#

Meanwhile even at just 10 MnE, ewave was like 95% chance against like level, before.

humble moth
#

Sure. It also completely outclassed 912's accuracy, a primary pure's spell circle with a higher mana cost.

fierce saddle
#

yeah, pretty much, because it was pure level component, which again is still my suggestion to fix these, is make them back to a level component + some bonuses for training in the spell list, but would make it usable at least as well as it was before

coral spade
#

I personally always presumed the basic idea was to bring Asc hunting setups in line. Im not sure ‘good as before’ is really gonna do it

fierce saddle
#

that's the base line if you only had 10 ranks

steel shale
fierce saddle
#

if you wanna use it in ascension arena you can train more and it'd be effective, I guess the minimum viable thing also might work for that, but I feel like that's just gonna make it 70% everywhere cause noone is gonna have 160ish mne ranks

fringe orchid
fierce saddle
#

on the bright side, I'm currently completely immune to creature ewave too in the places I've been

night panther
#

Plus bards use 410 and their base circle doesn't have an AOE knockdown to replace it with

hoary beacon
fringe orchid
#

I'm trying to think of PSM abilities that creatures immediately break out of.

nova violet
#

The comparison shouldn’t be to abilities but to status effects. Lots of PSM abilities apply stunned just like spells do, and that gets shaken. As you note, it is staggered that is less likely to get shaken

fringe orchid
#

That is the point I'm trying to make.

The PSM abilities aren't broken, because they have multi-status effects.

All disablers either need multi-status effects, or the ability to "immobile-break" should be removed.

pearl creek
#

I thought most setup cman had a stagger component. Minimum of the rt used to try. Without looking at the wiki I can’t think of one that doesn’t, it’s the lynchpin that makes them all work independently

nova violet
fringe orchid
#

Patching everything with a Stagger effect seems like a band-aid though, not a real solution.

nova violet
#

Also the MLE idea is basically “what if there was a second formula that was pure level but a little bit worse”

fiery wing
#

the thing with Bind getting broken so fast is that I didn't have a chance to get my actual attack spell fired off. Maybe that's my fault for not using a script or even a macro and relying on fast typing, but... honestly, my typing isn't THAT much slower than if I were to have used a macro. (I don't have lich so script hunting isn't even an option, and if it was, I still wouldn't do it because I just don't want to give up the control to change things up because of need/whim)

(also, I know undead pirates are a major PITA, and personally, I wouldn't have chosen them to be the first test case, but... that's the joy of playing with others sometimes)

pearl creek
coral spade
fierce saddle
nova violet
#

Yes, it does

pearl creek
coral spade
#

Spell cleave. Cripple. Hamstring. Dizzying Strike. Three that come to mind immediately. Im not at my pc

nova violet
#

Level difference has always been in the SMR formula

#

That is level vs level

#

The level vs level component is at the core of lots of discussions we’ve had previously about SMR results, because mobs go above 100 but players cannot

pearl creek
coral spade
#

Im trying to think of others. Cutthroat. Divert…id need to look at the list

The best setups do though

pine charm
#

I never really considered e-wave a disabler on the same level as sounds or bind. And I'm basing us on the fact that E-Wave is killed me by itself multiple times

fierce saddle
nova violet
#

I mean, it’s a formula

#

I think we both agree that level and skills are both in the SMR formula

fierce saddle
#

well skills don't have to be
there's plenty of examples where skills play zero factor

acoustic bough
#

crowd press, dislodge, eye poke, nose tweak, subdue, throat chop, temple shot, vault kick also do not cause staggered.

nova violet
#

You guys are naming all the cheap shots

#

Feels like cheating somehow

acoustic bough
#

Hey they're still classified as setups and are cmans! I just went through the list.

fierce saddle
#

there are also plenty of examples, that I've named where level is the primary factor, and skills are just bonuses (these are mostly on items, designed so they can work for everyone, and if that's the goal with these disablers, then they seem like a much better baseline to follow)

dusty rivet
#

level might be the single largest contributor to be honest. but in general the S in SMR is for defending. offensive power with smr is considerably more malleable.

ocean olive
#

IIRC there was an update that any maneuver that caused roundtime to the target was converted to Staggered.

nova violet
#

I think we all agree that it would be good to change the formula, and they’ve begun looking at tweaks

haughty heart
#

Random question - I noticed that one of the new formulas has a bit that is flipped depending on whether the target is a player or a creature. I think this is a pretty interesting idea, given that players (myself included) probably don’t want combat to be 100% symmetrical. Are there existing examples of this in a formula? Is it brand new? Is it rare but existing?

dusty rivet
#

917 is weaker against players on the first round

edit: timer
like the artist formerly known as nidal said:
309 has the concucussion damage per round capped at 20, 35 against creatures

mmm..... maybe others. have to think more. not the most common but not brand new.

night panther
nova violet
#

My goal here is mainly to try to make sure discussion does not go along the lines of changing the formula to be what the formula more or less currently is, because that will lead to it being mostly unhelpful

#

Not trying to suggest that things are perfect as they are by any means

nova violet
pearl creek
nova violet
#

Clerics are even more OP!

night panther
#

Yea lol. Has damage caps on the concussion part I think.

acoustic bough
nova violet
#

I think when enemies cast 335 it’s single target for them too

dusty rivet
#

309 on any decent roll was (35 + crit (say average 20)) * 5 = 275 damage. it was bleeding out even large races before you could act lol.

nova violet
#

Yeah isn’t it great

#

Well I guess not when the enemies cast it

echo aurora
#

Do any pay items make SMR generally more effective?

nova violet
#

Not really across SMR

#

You could buy enhancive related services

echo aurora
#

Sporestaff with smr unlocks incoming this DR (just using this as an example, since I made this request when they first debuted)…

nova violet
#

Generally SMR has enhanceable skill and stat components and people improve their SMR results by enhancing those skills and stats

fringe orchid
pearl creek
#

my fault, I used the setup term when asking the question - decent distinction to make for where the examples go

coral spade
fringe orchid
#

I'll try to think of good examples to explain it via PSM, but I do feel like there is a difference and it's easier to describe via spells.

Setup = Hamstring/Kneebash
Disabler = Cutthroat/Throatchop

echo aurora
#

Setup = getting you ready to do something? Whereas disabler = preventing them from doing something?

coral spade
#

Ok. Then warriors dont really have disablers. Nothing we do prevents things. We just delay them.

nova violet
#

thinking it over, I think the MLE (minimum level of effectiveness) is a good idea for making these SMRs baseline useful, it just seems to be producing more like a 40% like level rather than a 70% like level

fierce saddle
#

I dunno, from the hamstrings I've seen it's closer to a nuke than a setup or disabler

nova violet
#

Hamstring is its own thing lol

coral spade
#

I guess disarm is warriors best disabler by that definition.

nova violet
#

It’s like what if they stapled 250 points of concussion to a knockdown maneuver

dusty rivet
#

most of the hamstring clips you see that blow things up are after it got hit with a subdue or warcry so yeah, if you get a 300+ result it is 😄

echo aurora
fierce saddle
#

hamstring is like 719, it disables, if it doesn't kill the target with a 400 point bleed

violet ferry
#

Also, people rarely hunt like level, especially at cap and post cap, where ten levels up is normal.

fringe orchid
#

I'm not sure I agree with that. I would say most people hunt like-level. Nelemar, OTF, SoS, Rift.

The minority venture into HW/ME/Scatter.

coral spade
nova violet
#

it's generally not possible to hunt ten levels up in most capped areas!

#

I would probably assume for the moment that if you are walking into hinterwilds to hunt level 113 mobs then you are going to be deeply trained in your tools and MLE won't come into play

dusty rivet
#

everyone in OTF, nelemar, sanctum, confluence, pirate ships besides bosses, bandits, and the rift outside of scattar are basically hunting like level. that's...not no one.

fierce saddle
nova violet
#

if you go into hinterwilds and expect ewave to knock everything with ten ranks of mne I am okay saying you should come up with a plan b

#

(this doesn't apply to vaemyr, for example, because he is deeply trained)

fringe orchid
#

I'm torn on that, because it did work before.

Should it continue to work for the Rogue with 10 MnE ranks?

Probably, until something else is put in to provide the same quality of benefit.

acoustic bough
#

I am confused at the intent of the MLE based off this example. The web was a failure based on training, Looks like the MLE kicked in, but still was a base chance of 70% along with the 25 bonus put it at a 95. Is the MLE expected to have a bonus of 31+ to land?
[SMR result: 95 (Open d100: 27, Bonus: 25)]
Of course it could be a bad example and rolling a 33 would have been a hit, but I'm not sure how the MLE is applied here.

coral spade
limpid geode
#

Honestly I feel like rogues should probably have an SMR option to replace ewave...having to rely on ewave for a rogue seems like the issue, rather than making ewave work better with just 10 ranks of a spell circle.

fierce saddle
nova violet
#

that's lower than what estild described so it's possible the fix is just to turn that up a little

coral spade
fringe orchid
#

That's such an ugly solution to me. Like a band-aid for a bigger problem.

limpid geode
#

just as rogues were given replacements to 403/404 so they didn't have to train spells...they should have something to replace the need for ewave imo
it makes sense that a spell doesn't work well with very little spell training

echo aurora
night panther
#

Give them access to Bullrush maybe

coral spade
#

Its GS. Its a series of layered band aids going back to the 90s

nova violet
#

bull sweep, you spin around the floor like a beyblade sweeping everything in the room with you

echo aurora
analog nexus
nova violet
#

the items that produce 410 is a totally different thing for me because they don't have a skill bonus at all so that's just something they gotta figure out

#

the GMs, that is

#

also what do you mean stray nerf batting

#

who was SUPPOSED to get nerfed haha

coral spade
#

Anything that worked before should still work. If anything, this should have made them better. Not the items

analog nexus
fringe orchid
#

I mean, Squares should be getting hit by these magical SMRs on the level of Pures getting hit by the physical PSMs.

That's what I consider to be balanced.

Right now, I think it's pretty much lol nice try, squarestone 4ever

echo aurora
#

For example, 410 with 10 ranks MnE should result in a knockdown, but 410 with 101 ranks MnE should apply knockdown + stance + RT

fringe orchid
#

Where's the math professor when you need them.

earnest skiff
#

I trained telepathy for my empath for big brain empath RP vibes. And then they went and updated Empathic Link and it was glorious. I felt oddly vindicated.

coral spade
#

I wonder if they shouldnt back all these changes out, revert to previous, put the new stuff on test and lets iron this out without having to patch everything on the fly

fringe orchid
#

I was thinking that this morning. Keep the mana and RT reduction. Figure out the other changes and then push them in.

nova violet
#

but I just made my 217 macro haha

acoustic bough
#

I don't know about all the changes ... if they're gonna do that it should be limited to the one changed to smr

nova violet
#

yeah I think most of the changes went smoothly

dusty rivet
# coral spade I wonder if they shouldnt back all these changes out, revert to previous, put th...

It is a bit of a mystery to me why we didn't use the test realm for this. some of these things appear to have gaping holes in performance that should have been evident with the most basic testing, and it was pushed out in the night on a holiday 36 hours before i'm assuming all the dev gms are going to be busy at their real jobs after the 31 days of pretending to work we call december

edit: for clarity the not working in december statement is a jab about how no one gets work done during the holidays, in gemstone or otherwise, so january tends to be busier for people as they come back from winter breaks and have to pick up all the new work they've been putting off.

glacial fern
#

this type of large, sweeping change seems like exactly the type of situation where the test server would allow for players to provide meaningful feedback before going live in prime ¯_(ツ)_/¯

nova violet
# 
A grizzled deathsworn fanatic appears too distracted and his spell casting attempt fails.```

interference is pretty good tbh
pine charm
#

Test server is normally used by the exact people here, a bunch of overly leveled uber hunters......Captain Ron says if its going to happen its going to happen out there.

nova violet
#

technically we cannot be overly leveled because there is a cap

dusty rivet
#

test server is obviously a biased sample set. i think a more aggresive, iterative test realm cycle vs languishing until it's perfect there absolutely makes sense. but it would have pointed out things like "this spell isn't usable with any reasonable build" before breaking said non-optimal hunters routines for some unspecified amount of time.

keen cape
dusty rivet
#

I very much am not on either account and frankly that's an incredibly outlandish and overly defnesive repsonse to what i just said and how i said it.

keen cape
#

you just said staff was "pretending to work in December".

glacial fern
#

lol at their real jobs

dusty rivet
#

I was speaking about society there. not just devs 😉

edit, timer:
I meant literally no one works in december, so everyone is busier in january. I'sm orry if that was the miscomunication there 😄 i hjaven't worked since november at best!

faint cargo
#

At "their real jobs"...

night panther
#

It was a joke. Everyone "pretends to work" their real jobs in December. I know I do.

keen cape
#

that is not how it came across, but ok that is funny.

ocean olive
#

I don't, it suuucks but I wish I could. Holiday metrics.

fierce saddle
#

the december thing wasn't even aimed at staff, just all of us kinda pretend to work in december, cause like... yeah nothing ever happens in december, oh god though I know I have like 3 months of work to try and fit into january coming 😦

keen cape
#

Understood. I disagree, but I see how it may have been presented that way.

fierce saddle
#

I fully believe staff has been working super super hard on this update, and I'm astonished by everything that's gone into it, but that's all the reason I want it to be successful across the board

faint cargo
#

Yeah, the fact that test wasn't used for this first blows my mind. But whatever, it's done, so I hope the fixes roll out soon.

glacial fern
#

I don't think its hostile or assumptive to ask why big changes don't leverage the test environment when other recent changes have done so and turned out better for it. Auchand's recent hunting ground releases took advantage of it and smoothed out issues before release. I feel like the test server would have caught things like the casting RT spell interactions, bard song issues, and paladin infusion costs that players discovered almost immediately after these were put live into prime

dusty rivet
#

i think we're good here i edited the intiial post to add some extra clarity there. just a text miscommunication. i'm also crappy in general so ya know, not like it was certainly a valid potential reading of how i said it!

nova violet
#

can confirm that guy sucks

pine charm
#

I read everything Tikba says as an attack...it serves me well and keeps me on my toes. I think that red WARNING name makes it easier to do so.

nova violet
#

IN THE GAME THOUGH

keen cape
#

Let's return to more civilized conversation about spells. Carry on.

fierce saddle
#

my assumption is there most likely was some technical reason these didn't go onto test first, but hard to really know, I think it was Wyrom whom mentioned it's actually a lot of work to put new technical systems on test and then prime.

dusty rivet
#

spells are bad and people who use and make spells are bad and should feel bad!

broken knoll
#

Historically test hasn't been used for mechanical roll-outs. Auchands use of it for HW and The Hive was uncommonly rare

fierce saddle
#

but, yeah some of these probably should of been reverted while they are being worked on like the bard spells were TBH

night panther
#

It was used for PSM3 which was kind of a big rollout

steel shale
# limpid geode Honestly I feel like rogues should probably have an SMR option to replace ewave....

I don't think rogues really NEED an AoE, and ewave is sort of just a fancy thing rogues have always had the option of getting. It always sort of made the magical rogue a thing, and has been a part of the rogue class for sooooo long. If ewave even improves from its current state to be 70% chance against like level, it is still such a nerf that I don't think anyone will use it. Against Asc? Sure, 70% is not bad! But like level? I think 70% is awful.

I do know when they reviewed all the maneuvers in the past and converted them to SMR2, they left ewave as SMR1. I guess we know why now!

echo aurora
#

I thought it cost a lot to update test…

fierce saddle
#

I don't really mind rolling things onto prime, it certainly gets it in the hands of more players, and a LOT more data very quickly, I just also believe in rollbacks in those cases when things aren't working (which for things like 410 that were pretty intigral to some people's kits, they can't hunt like they did before)

night panther
#

410 as it currently sits was nerfed so badly it may as well have been unimplemented last night

nova violet
#

410 is obviously in a difficult place right now, but just to reup from last night, auchand said they are still tweaking the SMR formula, so no reason to expect it will remain as it is

glacial fern
#

unfortunately in the mean time those spells are not really usable for people who were relying on them until last night. i get that putting things on the test server may be non-trivial, but so is regaining the sentiment of players who are frustrated with these changes in their current state

ocean olive
#

Purely conjecture/opinion here, but earlier when there was semantics debate over 'setups' and 'disablers,' both falling under the umbrella term of 'controls.' I imagine 410 falls more into the setup category. 435 would be the adult version one is looking for in the realm of AoE damage disabler, but I'm not certain I saw any changes to it in the updates.

acoustic hull
#

when you run into a room full of mobs and you don't want them all to attack you at once, what non-damaging spell do you use?

ocean olive
#

>sym return

keen cape
#

He Boldly Ran Away...

steel shale
#

You know, I guess I do have a use for ewave with Midgar that I didn't think about. I use it on bandits and triton wardens to knock them out of hiding, since it's better than searching.

coral spade
#

Warriors have a few answers there that dont damage. We are bad examples

echo aurora
#

619

coral solar
#

I tend to start off with Sympathy to ease the pressure, then Empathic Link until I get them all. Then I just play whack a mole. If it's really bad, I'll open cast web?

ocean olive
#

I was gonna say, I was struggling to find some squareside examples but we really don't have any in the current not-working-well context. We used to, however.

dusty rivet
#

410 was probably in the runnning for being a top 5 ability in the game for like, the first 30 years of the game. so now it's just getting counterbalanced with 5 days of being unusable or whatever

nova violet
#

I don't really think the setup/disabler distinction is as strong as described, almost all setups also make the enemy not do stuff until they get out of the setup

#

there are very few long-term disablers in the game and as alastir's list suggests they almost all just disable spellcasting

#

actually they might all disable spellcasting haha

ocean olive
#

More of a venn diagram situation than two rows two columns.

acoustic hull
#

just as easy examples, 413 and 909 don't stop the enemy for any time at all

acoustic bough
#

And there is no official designation for "disabler". Except for spells because they called this the spell disabler review

violet ferry
#

Yeah, this is more just any debuff at all is a disabler. 512 disables since it prevents maneuvers use. And at two casts all actions are locked down.

coral solar
#

My main wish/want has been to not have my character's throat slit or just be outright silenced or spell stripped during a fight. I don't much mind that it CAN happen, I just was frustrated when it seemed like it was inevitable. There should be balance on what happens and what you can do about it. When I get Moonbeamed, for example, I tend to just drop my hands from the keyboard - because what do you do?

fringe orchid
fierce saddle
#

I think we're just talking semantics, and waaaaay back when we were discussing these spells we started calling them disablers, then then the name stuck.

They are spells that do stuff that killing the target is not their primary function I think is basically the classification here.

fringe orchid
#

We should call them immobilers, since they call the ability to break them Immobile-breakers.

fierce saddle
#

so I think generally everything on the "spell disabler" list actually could also qualify in that "setup" category, some also disable, but generally they are designed to be used in conjuction with other spells or attacks to defeat a creature

fringe orchid
#

I liked ... Leffs? explanation.

I want to do something to you
vs
I want to stop you from doing something to me

When I hamstring, I want to hurt you.
When I ewave, I want to prevent you from nuking me.

nova violet
#

I always want both of those things!

violet ferry
#

Yeah, the term may be generalized but it's ultimately important to account for why somebody is casting a spell that doesn't kill. Making it easier to hit your target, and making your target less likely to kill you, are distinct goals.

fierce saddle
#

I'm just saying there is no distinction in cmans for "disablers" only for setups, of which disablers certainly are a part of

fringe orchid
#

Cutthroat is the only example I can think of that only disables.

steel shale
#

Can't we just use "CC" and/or "debuff" like every other game uses? 😆

nova violet
#

I think that example kind of shows the problem, ewave prones the enemy, and it ALSO means they won't act until they get out of roundtime and stand up (usually)

#

proning an enemy so you can hit them more is a time-honored strategy in gemstone

ocean olive
#

Did we get a more detailed explanation of MLE or are the details of that still under construction?

fierce saddle
# fringe orchid Cutthroat is the only example I can think of that only disables.

but it is in the "setup" category of skills

The point of showing that list is that basically all the spells in this "spell disabler review" are similar in that they are intent to be followed up with something else.

Setups in Cmans are also special in the fact they have big innate bonuses to success, outside of any training, which is why they work so well on higher level creatures still.

echo aurora
#

We haven’t gotten any mechanical update comments since like 3:00 am last night. We’re just all kindof chumming the waters talking.

acoustic bough
#

Can't ewave, gotta fill the time with something 😂

fierce saddle
#

first big mechanical release in a long time, of course we gonna discuss it to death haha

fringe orchid
#

This is the friendliest mechanics conversation we've ever had

violet ferry
#

In the meantime, hunt those creatures that 435 that have been a problem, they're harmless now

echo aurora
fierce saddle
nova violet
#

HARMLESS

violet ferry
#

Oh yeah, players get those too. I had a 1400 end roll last night

ocean olive
#

I think that was the massively skewed room's effect. Clearly the game's been playing longer and has more xp.

fierce saddle
#

to which I will say that uhhh 435 probably will need an effect cap on it

fringe orchid
#

no no, I like those open rolls for me now

nova violet
#

my hot take is if you get hit with a 1700 end roll it should do 700 damage

#

maybe more

humble moth
#

Lucky charms, RSN

haughty heart
fierce saddle
pine charm
covert pewter
#

I don't go back to work until next Monday, for what it's worth.

#

Just scrolling up.

covert pewter
pine charm
echo aurora
covert pewter
#

It's not mine, lol.

#

When I say "standard flare" I am talking about the same equation that determines the damage of most flares in the game.

#

If it helps, they kill me too.

nova violet
#

you should stop getting run over by horses

covert pewter
#

Moonsedge 4 (un)life.

nova violet
#

pro tip

fierce saddle
covert pewter
limpid geode
#

I'm not really a fan of abilities that barely hit me but then kill me because the damage is not related to the thing that hit me initially.

pine charm
#

Yea undead horses...so hot right now

brittle bane
#

make it the elemental version of 125.. some kind of elemental vortex/cloud that does damage in waves...

nova violet
#

ranger, fire, hot

hazy viper
#

Flaming aura is great. Best update of 2023

night panther
#

Should 212/217 maybe also impart a penalty to SMR defense? Then you could go 212->118 if you wanted to, etc. 1015 could also use this; a SMR penalty in addition to the TD penalty, to make 410 better for bards

limpid geode
#

does anyone want to use a debuff to make their next debuff viable though?

past cloak
#

Stacks on stacks

night panther
#

I mean, 212 into 309 would be great, I'll take that.

glacial fern
# covert pewter One thing I've mulled is basing 435 damage on a standard flare instead of failur...

As a player, I have generally found this design to be frustrating in practice. Offensively, even if I invest in increasing my skill to make it land consistently, the higher endrolls don't make the effects consisent enough to rely on. Conversely, it is frustrating to get murked by a 101 endroll when I face it defensively. Logically I understand that there is a negativity bias at work but that doesn't change the way it feels in play to me

coral spade
pine charm
limpid geode
#

depends on whether it actually speeds up your kill time, I guess

I don't think the +25 from sounds on top of the +100 you already get from 611 is going to make enough difference to make it worth 2 more seconds, regardless of mana

glacial fern
#

im not against wombo combos that take more time to set up, but I don't think the general design for most disablers should have an expectations that you need to chain them to be effective

pine charm
#

Yea it is 1 more second than what I was using before but 3 less mana...and those are both disablers that should in theory be lowering the danger from that creature. It is just something I am toying with that I didn't need to consider before.

limpid geode
#

611 already lowers the danger from the enemy to 0 (essentially)

hazy viper
# 
  Flaming Aura ............................ 00:01:39```
Flaming aura is incorrectly showing as a debuff now instead of as a buff.
covert pewter
#

Nothing has changed for months. I will take a look under the hood once I get to my NYD celebration.

acoustic bough
echo aurora
#

Or want 616 to hit even harder…

pine charm
limpid geode
#

I still think in most situations you'd just aim to cast 611 twice, for the chance that the first one works and you don't need to waste another 2 seconds. In some situation where your odds are very low and the 607 is important to make 611 feasible, sure, but I don't think that's a normal hunting scenario (at least not before the changes last night).

tough flame
#

walks in, the perfect picture of serenity
Good morning and happy new year—
looks at hundreds of messages
Right then. New year same as the old year. 🍿

fringe orchid
acoustic bough
#

Let's be real though, Ranger is a bad example. They're on top.

echo aurora
#

607 is an awesome opener. Why? Because it will trigger an animal companion attack opening, and the 607 will give the bonus.

limpid geode
#

611 -> tell comp to attack -> 616

glacial fern
echo aurora
dusky hatch
#

912 v2 is my current favorite update. 217 is pretty great too.

covert pewter
#

Yay. As a wizard I am glad you like it.

nova violet
#

This is a genuine question: how much did people here use single target web before these changes? I used it quite rarely because I felt it was pretty limited in value — basically against targets that I knew would shake stun but not webbed

dusky hatch
#

909 stomp + 912 is a pretty devestating combo. Some overlap, but -EBP and stancing them? Money.

echo aurora
#

Rarely. But I used AoE web occasionally.

nova violet
#

yeah, I used aoe web much more (like whenever I have bandits)

dusky hatch
#

We need custom AoE webs (akin to custom 709) so that I know which ones to dispel!

glacial fern
#

Goals:
Improve spell disablers so that magic has options available to set up and disable creatures.
perhaps my expectations were unreasonable, but I expected achieving this goal to include making spells like single target 118 viable to use as primary disablers

limpid geode
#

I don't use single-118 much now b/c it's not that useful where I hunt, but while leveling Tsalyn I used 118+309 as a combo constantly whenever the advguild sent me to kill something living (otherwise as a Volner I preferred 301/309 of course).

pearl creek
echo aurora
glacial fern
#

if it doesn't work for a very post-cap cleric, I don't see how other classes would expect to fare better

nova violet
dusky hatch
tough flame
#

I never used 118 previously at cap.

Before cap yes, because I was a war cleric and warpath while leveling too. The -25 TD pushdown was enormous at lower levels (and by that I mean up through at least minotaurs).

limpid geode
#

If they can get 118 to be as effective as it was as a CS spell with the pushdown, I'd probably start using it more at cap with the lower mana cost.

pseudo fractal
nova violet
#

that's kind of where I land too, as SMR web currently stands it is not reliable enough for me to cast the single target version except in very specific circumstances, but the AOE version is definitely useful

echo aurora
#

I think the solution is to scale it up, so that it’s very easy to land 118, where almost anyone can achieve a 101 endroll to web a creature, but adjust skills so that bonuses to endrolls hit benchmarks that add additional status effects. So a capped cleric casting 118 web, with a 190 endroll achieves web+rt+vulnerable. But my capped ranger with 20 ranks MnS, just gets a web.

I keep beating this drum because it’s what makes sense to me.

fringe orchid
#

I stopped using any ability that was immediately shaken off. It was just a waste of time.

night panther
limpid geode
#

I see 70-80% success at fresh cap against same-level enemies as a good baseline.
At 2x cap (primary skills trained) against like-level 100% should be feasible.
Against Ascension enemies back down to 70-80% is reasonable, even with full training.

tough flame
#

I’ll admit: until this discussion just now, I didn’t really think about how severely my leveling characters would have taken a hit if 118 hadn’t been reliable. (And keep in mind I had their spell ranks relatively low, as war pures, so the TD pushdown was covering a lot of ground.)

Of course, to be fair, they would have traded it for 212 being reliable instead, but that’s not quite what melee characters are looking for, heh…

dusky hatch
#

If nothing else, this exercise has helped me (re)learn a lot of spells I had long since written off 😆

drifting marsh
# 
Inhaling deeply, you lift your pale golden warhorn to your lips, and with a mighty blow you sound the warhorn, loosing a high blaring hornblast that echoes through the surroundings.  The powerful note builds for a moment before culminating in a thunderous explosion, centered on a ball of fire that bursts from the warhorn's cone!  The force of the blast transforms the burning sphere into a rapidly expanding flaming ring of elemental energy!

The roiling wave of fire moves outward from you.
[SMR result: 69 (Open d100: 27)]
A human robber is buffeted by the crimson ethereal waves, but is unaffected.
[SMR result: 75 (Open d100: 30)]
A half-elven outlaw is buffeted by the crimson ethereal waves, but is unaffected.
[SMR result: 90 (Open d100: 41)]
A human mugger is buffeted by the crimson ethereal waves, but is unaffected.
Roundtime: 6 sec.```
#

Definitely not good for my old GA warhorn 😦

dusky hatch
#

I am surprised (not complaining) that 914 got included in this update. I still need to give it a whirl. I expect it will still be terrible, but at least affordably terrible now.

tough flame
#

I will gladly admit I’ve not tried 914 or 915 and won’t unless someone else tells me they’re good now.

fringe orchid
#

Same spells, just cheaper and faster.

limpid geode
#

I try to keep in mind that a lot of these spells are fun - and many people will probably enjoy being able to use them at a reasonable cost - even if it doesn't lead to maximum kill efficiency...it's hard for my brain to accept, but I bet most players care more about FUN than EFFICIENCY lol

tough flame
#

I’m all about fun, but I wouldn’t describe most disablers as fun. Fun is more like 525!

Edit: actually trying to think of a disabler I would describe as fun… 1219 for sure because everything starts repeatedly tripping over itself.

limpid geode
#

setting their weapon on fire as a disabler seems fun!

tough flame
#

Not compared to setting them on fire!

fringe orchid
#

Except they just immediately drop the weapon.

tough flame
#

1210 1211 could be a fun disabler in theory. In practice it isn’t, because you’d need to find the perfect combination of something that takes extraordinarily fast combat actions, has low enough TD to get hit by it, lives in a swarmy area, and has enough power to hit other creatures in its area—and then those creatures themselves have to be fragile enough to take serious damage.

coral spade
tough flame
night panther
nova violet
#

I think 311 and 316 are super fun

coral spade
#

Somehow Thaumaturge SMR seems fine...

[SMR result: 175 (Open d100: 89, Bonus: 15)]
Flying high before undertaking an aerial dive at a flickering mist-wreathed banshee, your jet leather codex unleashes a dazzling arcane projectile!
   ... 20 points of damage!
   Strike swipes cleanly through the abdomen, but seals up a moment later!**```
nova violet
#

Telling people “have you heard the good news about Marlu” and then they fall over paralyzed is 100% in my power fantasy

#

I will admit that webbing them is not haha

glacial fern
#

1120 is fun for me. not only prevents them from harming me but make them fight amongst themselves too

steel shale
tough flame
#

Oh yeah, 1120’s definitely a good, fun disabler.

glacial fern
#

it almost makes me feel bad for subsequently linking all of them up to murder

dusty rivet
sharp fractal
coral spade
night panther
#

I use several CMans with 1 rank as a monk and they work pretty well. Better than SMR spells with .6x in the circle

glacial fern
#

Midgar is used to that. He gets that reaction a lot. Maybe not the stocking threat though. We may have found his weakness

steel shale
#

So then we can just kill with our disablers and call it good? 😆

#

Spells can't do whacky things with flares and such either. It's not fair and not balanced.

coral spade
night panther
#

Going to total spell ranks rather than ranks in the circle really would be closest to how CMans work

dusty rivet
#

I understand the design goal of wanting to promote maxing off circles but with resource skills it’s almost never going to happen. And even then another design paradigm stated is prof circles > major circles > minor circles. So by design a non-prof circle is going to be worse and that won’t feel good.

steel shale
#

Maybe they can add a multiplier for each circle.

night panther
fringe orchid
echo aurora
steel shale
#

Like 2.5 multiplier for major/minor and 1.x for class circle. To make it on par with 2x CM.

coral spade
# fringe orchid I think he doesn't want to die to player setups w/ flares

Thats a fib!

   ... 56 points of damage!
Quick, powerful slash to the tatterdemalion ghast's left knee!
A cadaverous tatterdemalion ghast falls to the ground grasping his mangled right leg!
The tatterdemalion ghast is stunned!

 ** A torrent of shimmering dust roils around you before forming an ordered phalanx of crystalline swords and tridents that plunge into a cadaverous tatterdemalion ghast in a violent storm of Liabo-hued light! **
   ... 20 points of damage!
   Nasty burns to right arm.  Gonna need lots of butter.
Riotous Liabo-hued energy races along the surface of the sword, slender tendrils rising up to coalesce into the ethereal form of a hollow-eyed valravn.

** Surrounded by a shroud of clinging shadows, a hollow-eyed ethereal valravn swoops down with an eerily echoing shriek as a murder of distorted Liabo-hued valravns lurch around it on a wave of disruption! **

   ... 35 points of damage!
   The tatterdemalion ghast's wrist bones explode, leaving only a stump.
A turbulent cloud of Liabo-hued light lashes out from an ornate ebony eahnor cresset sword with a glowing firewheel-shard pommel with an echoing shriek!
Rage fills the ghast's eyes as his body tenses up.

  ** A vicious torrent of crackling lightning surges from a nacreous-bladed eonake longsword with a cloud-etched zorchar spine and strikes a cadaverous tatterdemalion ghast! **

   ... 30 points of damage!
   Electric blast goes right to the heart!  Fibrillation can be fun.
You hear a sound like a child weeping as a white glow separates itself from the tatterdemalion ghast's body and rises into the heavens.
A cadaverous tatterdemalion ghast lets out a hoarse cry that devolves into dry, rasping coughs.  Spasms race through his form, dead muscles seizing and clenching before at last going still.
A cadaverous tatterdemalion ghast exhales the last of a virulent green mist.
Roundtime: 3 sec.``` 👀
glacial fern
fringe orchid
#

Wizards are the +only class with the forced spell split IMO.

coral spade
#

oh jeez...lol. I'm sorry, this is pretty funny.

Shadowy, fleshless limbs snatch from the other side the ghostly rift, their grasping claws flailing blindly through the aperture!
[SMR result: 10 (Open d100: 7, Penalty: 1)]
You twist away from the shadowy, skeletal limbs!```
steel shale
night panther
fringe orchid
#

I tried the 101/101/101 + using disablers. It's not as effective. (As a Cleric).

Died way more often and everything just took longer + more mana.

I also didn't try it in ascension areas where, going by the CS vs TD I saw, it wouldn't work, period.

night panther
#

It would likely be better now with 118/212/217 change but yeah I can’t imagine going that route being a net improvement,

fringe orchid
#

So how important is diversity in spell split. (For non-wizards).

My max CS as a wizard was 600. Using their minimum system (70%), that would put outside circles at 420 CS. Which isn't going to hit anything.

night panther
#

I would argue not very. We keep harping on this but squares can effectively use CMans with a single rank. Their choice between CMans doesn’t affect their AS/UAF. It’s not the same and it can’t be made to be the same. Pures having to make sacrifices to use SMR when physical classes don’t seems off. It should just use total spell ranks up to 100, with bonus for overtraining the circle the spell is in. You can use all of these spells with 303 ranks, you can be GREAT with them by overtraining the circle.

fringe orchid
#

If it's not important, do wizard spells get revamped, so they can overtrain their profession circle and have max everything like spiritualists?

glacial fern
night panther
#

The TDs are too damn high

tough flame
#

Last night, as I finally spent ATPs I'd been hoarding on my empath for literally a year, I briefly questioned whether I still felt it was necessarily to get to 40 Ascension Wisdom. Maybe I could save myself 75 ATPs, stop at 30, and let 212/217 do the rest of the work.

Then I remembered that even auto-success fails against higher end Ascension creatures, so 40 Ascension Wisdom it was.

steel shale
#

It sounds like their intent is to have the skills be effective for everyone, without you having to make major training adjustments. My only concern is what they will consider "effective" to be. Because 70% against like level things doesn't sound very effective, and that's the only number we've been given that I am aware of.

night panther
#

Yeah like I’m max CS guy on my cleric because I saw the writing on the walls about creature TD. It’s a binary system and they give stuff giant TD so I went all in on CS. Would I like to train different? Maybe but I’m not changing it as long as warding works how it does and TDs are what they are

fringe orchid
#

I think it's going to be difficult to make it effective for a Rogue (10 MnE) vs everyone else (75 MnE) without some weird band-aid.

night panther
#

I think it should be reliable with 75 MnE. I don’t think expecting it to work well with 10 MnE is reasonable or realistic

glass apex
echo aurora
steel shale
#

Yeah, it's a shame. Because traditionally it was, and very few rogues can train up to 75+ MnE. Only a handful of us exist.

zealous dew
native sedge
#

so an eyeless black valravn doesn't care about feint RT

fringe orchid
glacial fern
#

I understand the need to balance against max CS builds. Changing the CS calcs for off-profession circles to approach main CS seems like it would put a big dent into this, but open to other ideas

night panther
echo aurora
zealous dew
#

Most ascension critters ignore rt completely for our setups

native sedge
#

i know not a PSM skill, but a manuver and creature who pulls a honeybadger for any disabler

fringe orchid
#

~

MnE Ranks:      15/30/45/60/75/90
CMAN Comparison: 1/ 2/ 3/ 4/ 5/ 6
steel shale
#

My other concern is not just rogues that have few MnE ranks, but also leveling characters.

native sedge
#

also Disir fear + call wind !=fun

sleek inlet
#

The auto success level check against targets levels 11-20 will now work on grizzled and boss creatures (in addition to the previous ascension creatures). Currently, the default messaging is the same on failure, but we're planning to update it so it's obvious when subsequent attempts might result in success.

echo aurora
#

I think I’d rather see something like lores impact disabler spell effect, and have base effect success be exceptionally high regardless of spell ranks.

sleek inlet
#

Someone mentioned the lore bonus was not working from Elemental Saturation (413), but I can't find any issue with it.

fringe orchid
#

@fierce saddle

steel shale
native sedge
# 
Golden energy spirals up your wrists and condenses into thrice-wrapped coils as you prepare Elemental Saturation.  When the final word of your incantation falls from your lips, the rings abruptly shatter into shimmering shards of mana.
Your spell is ready.
You gesture at a huge steam elemental.
[SSR result: 229 (Open d100: 114)]

 ** For a split second, the striations of your somnis staff expand into a sinuous pearlescent mist that rushes towards the steam elemental, enveloping it entirely and causing it to collapse, fast asleep! **
A huge steam elemental does not seem to be affected.

A dark shadow passes over a huge steam elemental.
V5 = -37
V5 = -37

 ** Numerous sigils along your somnis staff abruptly flare to brilliance!  Glowing purple energy surges from each, twining into an echo of your last spell... **

A dark shadow passes over a huge steam elemental.
V5 = -37
V5 = -37
Cast Roundtime 1 Second.```
glacial fern
#

woah Sorrenn can see the matrix

echo aurora
fringe orchid
#

It would be a big boost for Rogues I believe, because 100% of your spells (if you only know 410) would be in that circle.

It looks like it would completely not work for everyone else though lol.

202 * .9 = 181 spells.

Maybe not total spells.

steel shale
#

I am glad I am not a coder who has to figure out what to do 😆

tough flame
fierce saddle
sleek inlet
#

Need to see a log in to see the numbers and what spells you’re casting. It’s only -ETD.

tough flame
#

Ahhhh, of course, the numbers would vary on a followup Sorcerer Base cast... good catch.

Edit: Actually, I see, the wiki page threw me off. "Elemental Saturation causes a target to incur a -25 penalty to target defense (TD) against all warding spells after the target fails a normal warding check." I'll go update that now.

fierce saddle
#

still doesn't match what I was seeing, but yeah I'll get some examples for you, give me a couple minutes

sleek inlet
steel shale
#

In some ways the game is more entertaining for me now, because instead of saving people with ewave I get to just sit there and watch them die.

#

Saving people that are immobilized is like my #1 use case for ewave. 😅

fierce saddle
fierce saddle
tough flame
#

I suddenly wondered about the 212 page, but interestingly enough, that one does specify it's only spiritual TD. I'm downgrading the 217-->504 combo I theorycrafted from "super powerful" to "pretty powerful." 😄

orchid pier
#

Was the idea ever tossed around for a free fix skills for affected professions due to the number of spell changes? Considering you can't really test this stuff on test.

limpid geode
#

I find it odd that 504 still requires Air Lore for extra targets rather than EMC.

coral spade
alpine rampart
#

everyone got free mitigation when PSM3 dropped for a while, I don't see why this would be different

dusky hatch
#

Cman migration and TP migration are pretty different though

alpine rampart
#

was it just cmans?

#

looking back I guess it was, yeah that's a slightly different problem then

night panther
#

Maybe turn on instant spell rank migration? No, it’ll be abused for service bonus. Lame

dusty rivet
#

don't do it for 4 weeks though. and only for clerics. no reason.

alpine rampart
#

Did clerics get free spell rank migration when sanctify dropped?

hazy viper
# 
You trace a simple rune while intoning the mystical phrase for Major Elemental Wave...
Your spell is ready.
You gesture at a triton radical.
A sphere of formless black ripples expands outward from you.
[SMR result: 209 (Open d100: 95)]
A triton radical is buffeted by the formless black sphere and is knocked to the ground.
   ... 60 points of damage!
   Left arm explodes into thousands of pieces!
[SMR result: 669 (Open d100: 63)]
A spectral triton defender is buffeted by the formless black sphere and is knocked to the ground.
   ... 290 points of damage!
   Huge strike vaporizes the right thigh.
   The triton defender convulses, falling inward upon itself while the leg mends.
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.```

Not sure if this is unique to spectral triton defenders, but they're saying they're getting hit by major ewave if you target a corporeal target
pine charm
covert pewter
coral spade
#

Horrah! Voln Bible lives on!

hazy viper
# 
You trace a simple rune while intoning the mystical phrase for Major Elemental Wave...
Your spell is ready.
You gesture at a triton combatant.
A sphere of formless black ripples expands outward from you.
[SMR result: 199 (Open d100: 48, Bonus: 45)]
A triton combatant is buffeted by the formless black sphere.
   ... 70 points of damage!
   Abdomen erupts, blood and bile splatter everything!
The triton combatant gurgles once and goes still, a wrathful look on his face.
[SMR result: 120 (Open d100: 8)]
A triton executioner is buffeted by the formless black sphere and is knocked to the ground.
   ... 10 points of damage!
   Ribs crack as chest swells!
[SMR result: 199 (Open d100: 84, Bonus: 3)]
A triton executioner is buffeted by the formless black sphere and is knocked to the ground.
   ... 50 points of damage!
   Right hand explodes into thousands of pieces!
   The executioner's sharply tapered longsword falls to the ground.
   The triton executioner is stunned!
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.```

Since it's SMR now, if the mobs have some penalties to SMR or you're severely overtrained 435 tends to hit like a truck on high end rolls
covert pewter
#

I'll have to take a look at them.

pine charm
#

435 is a disabler like implosion is a healing spell

plain wedge
#

While we're looking at these disablers, can we do something about the stacking SSR Disables that RT lock you forever?

[SSR result: 129 (Open d100: 75)]
The mastodon's angry trumpeting startles you!
Roundtime: 14 sec.
R>
A putrid arm quickly snatches at a niveous giant warg, dragging it down before retreating into the soil!
R>
Your disk arrives, following you dutifully.
R>
The freezing cold winds shriek all around you, numbing your extremities.
R>
In a display of martial precision, a brawny gigas shield-maiden thrusts with a gold-tipped heavy spear at you!
  AS: +556 vs DS: +838 with AvD: +21 + d100 roll: +44 = -217
   A clean miss.
R>
A niveous giant warg rolls over and leaps to its feet in a single fluid motion.
R>
A tattooed gigas berserker glares at you and lets out a nerve-shattering bellow!
[SSR result: 146 (Open d100: 51)]
You are startled enough to lose initiative!
Roundtime: 11 sec.```
Walked into the room, instantly put into 25s RT before I even had a chance to move, never left RT until death because they continued to stack more SSR based RT maneuvers repeated.
Unlike Stagger, these RTs stack over and over building to untenable durations.
covert pewter
#

I'll probably do a pass on all of my creatures once we lock in these numbers.

plain wedge
#

The sad thing is that as a sorcerer, I am not even being crit to death here. They don't even stun me. I just get plinked to death and end up dying with a couple minors and HP loss, so never get a chance for my cloak of shadows to activate. This has happened to me 3x today alone. Suffice to say, time to stop hunting hinterwilds for a bit.

fierce saddle
#

yeah, the wargs were updated to use stagger mechanics on their SSR move, but the beserkers and mastodons still one that stacks, does the actual warcry stack is that the issue there?

#

with everything that gives RT being generally changed over to stagger, if stuff is still giving stacking RT it's probably not intended

plain wedge
#

There are 2 warg maneuvers, one does stagger, the other is the howl that is not stagger and stacks with the berserker and mastadon shout SSR attacks.

fierce saddle
#

the howl does stagger for sure, it doesn't stack I've been hit by it like 1000 times

it'll refresh to the 20 seconds with high end rolls, but it doesn't stack, it does have messaging that makes it seem like it stacks, but it's really just the end roll resulting in 20 seconds RT

plain wedge
#

Well it probably stacks with the other shouts then is my point since they dont stagger. It only doesn't stack with other stagger effects.

fierce saddle
#

I mean it doesn't stack anymore than any other stagger SMR move would

brittle bane
#

suggestion: make 435 hit like shield throw and give it a cooldown 😛 (all those clips of 435 PALE in comparison to shield throw)

fierce saddle
#

I mean, I'd be fine with 435 being an attack spell that's useful and does good damage/kills stuff and has a CD like shield throw, that'd be pretty awesome TBH

brittle bane
#

but on a more serious note: maybe make SMR spells scale similar to skills like shield throw that (AFAIK) use up to 4x in skills (2x shield use, 2x cman) to determine effectiveness. SMR spells could use any combination of skills to max out at 4x, ie. spell circle ranks, spell aim, AND mana controls... pures and semis can then get to 4x while squares can only get to 3x... (i think those numbers are right)

coral spade
dusky hatch
brittle bane
dusky hatch
#

Shield throw only has 1 impact cycle, the others are concussion and unbalance which aren’t going to be fatal

coral spade
dusky hatch
#

Shield throw is awesome, don’t get me wrong. But it isn’t vaporizing rooms either. It’s more flash + a flare platform

brittle bane
dusty rivet
coral spade
#

I think people often assume the maneuvers are loco. Its far more often the flares

brittle bane
coral spade
brittle bane
steep night
#

... do squares not have forcert?

She said, having hid behind a stick for six years.

coral spade
plain wedge
dusky hatch
#

Qcast when? Give it a scaling mana cost, inefficient - but could be a fun option to throw some dynamic flow in

tough flame
#

Qcast is called "play a ranger or wizard." 😛

brittle bane
#

I'll give the team props for bringing out the release on the timeline they said they would. Especially grateful they are trying to hammer all these things out during the holiday. However, I think it might be better for everyone if we waited another month to have everything on test and draft an official document where it's way easier to keep track of everything that is happening and all the tweaks taking place.

reef condor
# 
You trace a simple rune while intoning the mystical phrase for Major Elemental Wave...
Your spell is ready.
You gesture at a brawny gigas shield-maiden.
A sphere of formless black ripples expands outward from you.
[SMR result: 77 (Open d100: 49, Bonus: 20)]
A withered shadow-cloaked draugr is buffeted by the formless black sphere, but is unaffected.
[SMR result: 93 (Open d100: 92)]
An eyeless black valravn is buffeted by the formless black sphere, but is unaffected.
[SMR result: 45 (Open d100: 35)]
An eyeless black valravn is buffeted by the formless black sphere, but is unaffected.
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.``` major ewave is all spell ranks now?
brittle bane
#

I THINK its: ```Actually, for the updated spells that use SMR, they use ((spell ranks (from the affected circle) + Spell Aiming ranks) / 2). (edited)
Jump

night panther
#

Only uses spell aiming if it would improve the result

hazy viper
#

Suggestion for 1108, rather than flee rooms could the higher warding margins cause the target to drop held items instead? Low success they freeze, high success they freeze and drop held items.

night panther
# 
Your spell is ready.
You gesture.
A gust of wind tugs at your sleeves.  Suddenly, a fierce wind rips through the area, scattering everything in its path and making it difficult to remain standing.
[SMR result: 171 (Open d100: 81)]
The wind knocks an ethereal triton psionicist off balance and she falls over!
[SMR result: 122 (Open d100: 31)]
 is knocked out of hiding by the gust!  The wind knocks a triton warden off balance and he falls over!
The wind then subsides.
Cast Roundtime 1 Second.```I LOVE that 912 can knock hidden targets out now (it couldn't before, right? I used it a lot and never saw that happen), but the creature name is missing from the start of the messaging
covert pewter
#

I can fix that.

rare mulch
#

So is 410 dead now?

covert pewter
acoustic bough
#

It was murdered last night yes. They're still working on resurrecting it.

rare mulch
oblique coral
#

I mean who is using ewave where it needs to be reliable? Wizards got 909/912, sorcs got grasp, and bards i guess (but they shouldnt even have mnE and should be mentalists), and then we got magical rogues/warrior? I mean minor elemental AOE shouldnt be as powerful a disabler as pure caster circle disablers anyways

night panther
#

It stinks for bards rn

dusty rivet
#

Bards definitely need it. Aoe CC is a big hole in the kit. Only other option is open cast 1030 which ain’t gonna work too much against noncorp

Edit: and if you’re physical and mainly MnE you can’t even ward with it reliably in the mid levels.

hazy viper
#

It just highlights that SMR works if it falls in a profession's primary spell circle and doesn't if it's a secondary circle. If you train 100 ranks of MnE, then you have a pretty solid spell because SMR kind of assumes you're at least 1x and not under trained.

I'm not fixskilling to find out but I imagine a cleric or empath with 100 minor spiritual and 2x spell aiming is really good with web.

The spells that are still CS based still require you to maximize training for those secondary spell circles if you hope to land the spells. Simple fix would be to just value ranks in the secondary circle higher. Wasn't something similar done for paladins and minor spiritual? Here's some free CS.

echo aurora
#

I think animal headdress is fixed with smr...

oblique coral
#

Thats the one benefit ewave would have over other AOE disablers at this point, it works on flying stuff with lore (kinda)

pearl creek
# rare mulch So is 410 dead now?

only MOSTLY dead. There's a big difference between mostly dead and all dead. Mostly dead is slightly alive.

Yeah, people covered it though and they are looking into success chances for a few of the SMR conversions

dusky hatch
nova violet
#

updated the wiki for all 100s/200s/300s changes

oblique coral
pearl creek
#

i know people have been dropping issues in here, but should we be bugging in game too? any specific syntax or phrasing that would help route bugs easier on the back end?

fringe orchid
#

~
Spell 435:

75 MnE / 127 Bard Ranks:
[SMR result: 160 (Open d100: 92, Bonus: 15)]
Advantage: 68

101 MnE/101 Bard Ranks:
[SMR result: 146 (Open d100: 57, Bonus: 15)]
Advantage: 89

w/ 101 Spell Aiming.
~
Spell 435:

[SMR result: 120 (Open d100: 6, Bonus: 40)]
Advantage: 104 (Minus 25 for Ensorc Proc) = 79

w/ 202 Spell Aiming (101/101 Split)

[SMR result: 63 (Open d100: -51, Bonus: 40)]
Advantage: 114 (Minus 25 for Ensorc Proc) = 89

[SMR result: 165 (Open d100: 73, Bonus: 15)]
Advantage: 92

tl;dr

I don't believe the Spell Aiming actually made any major difference in the end, going from 75 MnE to 101 MnE did though.
nova violet
#

that makes sense for the SMR formula -- if you are fully trained in the circle and 2x spell aiming you are pretty close to 100% success

pine charm
#

A minor gain for that 2x vs 1x but minor gains are kind of what 2x is all about...its where you go to squeeze some performance

fringe orchid
#

That minor gain cost ... 2000 TPs. On a Bard.

pearl creek
#

spell ranks also crush redux, which semis can still have some of with most standard training plans

vital umbra
#

Yeah, I'm all about training silly everything but needing to go 2x spell aiming to reliably have an AoE disabler makes me want to keep spamming symbol of sleep. If only some grumpy grumps hadn't torpedoed the bard review 😦

#

But I trust in Auchand et. al! Assume good will. Stuff will work out.

sonic marten
#

What is the intended cast RT for 515. It was 0s when self cast or at others. Now I am getting 1s for self and 3s for others.

pine charm
pearl creek
#

spells infused into a paladin bonded weapon do not appear to help SMR spells. It's actually looking worse through the first 4 critters as I test it. As paladins never had an SMR spell before, should it also provide a bonus there similar to the DS and TD pushdown? I do have 2x spell aim, unclear if that's not accounted for when cast via infusion. And this is not about the chance to succeed, only showing the delta between straight cast and infused in a bonded weapon being opposite of the expected result. I understand SMR rates are under review.

straight Cast: +64 to d100 roll
[SMR result: 133 (Open d100: 69, Bonus: 15)]

Infused in bonded weapon. +49 to D100 roll
Same critter, same room, waited for it to dissolve and reset itself for about a minute.
[SMR result: 80 (Open d100: 31)]

nova violet
#

all of the updates should now be on the wiki including the changes to the formula, although the SMR spells could use text updates to specify that they were affected by optional spell aiming and MLE

limpid geode
#

should spells like 135 that now cost less than 20 mana be reduced further in cost by 320 now? the wiki does say it's based on level but the wiki can be wrong, of course

lean folio
#

Thank you for all of those updates, Tikba!

nova violet
#

I destroyed the recent changes and I'm not sorry

nova violet
limpid geode
#

might just be something that Estild has made/has to make a decision on in this new paradigm

nova violet
#

wait, I don't know 135 lol

covert pewter
#

We have some stuff in the works, but remember that people are also trying to holiday.

pine charm
nova violet
# 
You whisper a short prayer of gratitude to Marlu before incanting the words for Spiritual Abolition...
Your spell is ready.
>cast rolton
You gesture at a rolton.

A pale, flickering nimbus coalesces around a rolton, then vanishes in a brilliant flash!

Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.
>mana
                         Normal  Enhanced
    Maximum Mana Points:    308       308
  Remaining Mana Points:    288```
#

doesn't look like it saved me any mana to have 320 up

covert pewter
#

I'm just stoked that I can reliably destroy conjurers in Moonsedge now.

#

417 having a lower castRT and cost = great.

limpid geode
nova violet
#

that is valid

faint cargo
limpid geode
#

as if we wouldn't have taken the option if they offered to get it out before the end of the year! let's be thankful for the great dev work and not nitpick every decision that we have little insight on anyways 🙏 ♥️

nova violet
#

I tried testing the disablers in moonsedge and instantly died

pine charm
#

ugh...if they offer a fixskill I might really kick my MnS up

fringe orchid
echo aurora
#

Easier to respond to discord comments when you’re drinking.

tough flame
#

Just returned from my first pass trying the Hinterwilds on a duo with the changes.. 217 was still basically outclassed by 316, at least in Fjallarhaart, but 216 puts in incredible work. I did, however, get the distinct impression that 217 would be amazing in a larger group where its lack of stunning/binding/proning/etc. things isn't a liability.

(Not knocking 217 at all, just saying where I think it's good or isn't. It's been great in the Sanctum since the Sanctum existed, as a counterexample!)

pine charm
fringe orchid
nova violet
#

I should have gone with dinaden to the hinterwilds!

pearl creek
#

there's still time!

tough flame
#

Are the changes even on the test server at the moment? I don't remember if they were when I looked last night. (I was trying to see what kind of Minor Mental CS I'd need for 1225 in the Hinterwilds and if it was remotely sensible to even try.)

fringe orchid
#

I don't think so, I asked and got no response, so I'm going to take that as a no.

pine charm
#

Is Sunburst going to get a reduced mana cost and/or RT reduction?

violet ferry
covert pewter
#

I test all of my hunting areas.

pearl creek
#

and you've let us test some of them too, which has been a lot of fun. 🙂 Thank you for that.

haughty heart
nova violet
#

I went to play around in plane 4 instead. SMR web is a big reduction in my ability to web crawlers, and I can't bind them either because my mjs CS is so poor, so I use fewer disablers than I used to. the 301 improvements make it even more effective than it was (which is very effective) against enemies that don't shake it, that's a huge benefit to clerics in the vast majority of areas in the game

#

oh actually 311 was great against crawlers and it repeatedly stunned them again so I genuinely don't understand how that works

dusky hatch
#

For some reason I thought crawlers didn't have eyes

nova violet
#

next time I will probably just try blinding all the crawlers, that seems like it would work fairly well, but still gives them the chance to sneak something through

#

SHUT UP

#

(they don't have eyes)

#

IT'S MAGICAL BLIND OKAY

coral spade
covert pewter
#

There haven't been any changes with them.

pseudo fractal
#

So I know people are complaining about ewave but um either my wizard is broken or it's been tweaked the otherway (I'm guessing the former)

A wave of dark ethereal ripples moves outward from you.
[SMR result: 1097 (Open d100: 30)]
A glistening cerebralite is buffeted by the dark ethereal waves.
Cast Roundtime 1 Second.```
steep mirage
#

Or both

pseudo fractal
#

Well since I'm also not getting any SMR checks on 912 (but its also not knocking anything over) I'm guessing it's my wizard. As fun as 912 may be with the new changes I may consider trading it for godlike ewaving abilities

#

For the record I think it's neither in this case I think cerebralites are just broken

A wave of dark ethereal ripples moves outward from you.
[SMR result: 1234 (Open d100: 171)]
A glistening cerebralite is buffeted by the dark ethereal waves.
Cast Roundtime 1 Second.```
```You gesture at a glistening cerebralite.
A wave of dark ethereal ripples moves outward from you.
[SMR result: 1060 (Open d100: 10)]
A glistening cerebralite is buffeted by the dark ethereal waves.
Cast Roundtime 1 Second.```
Because I'm sadly less powerful against other creatures
```You gesture at a fallen crusader.
Your faewood runestaff glows intensely with a verdant light!
A wave of dark ethereal ripples moves outward from you.
[SMR result: 227 (Open d100: 94, Bonus: 9)]
A fallen crusader is buffeted by the dark ethereal waves and is knocked to the ground.
Cast Roundtime 1 Second.```
tough flame
# 
[SMR result: 236 (Open d100: 78, Bonus: 80)]
The wind buffets a grim gigas skald violently!
[SMR result: 114 (Open d100: 81)]
The wind knocks an eyeless black valravn off balance and it falls over!
[SMR result: 147 (Open d100: 93)]
The wind knocks a tattooed gigas berserker off balance and he falls over!
[SMR result: 104 (Open d100: 31)]
The wind knocks a brawny gigas shield-maiden off balance and she falls over!
[SMR result: 154 (Open d100: 89)]
The wind knocks a withered shadow-cloaked draugr off balance and she falls over!
[SMR result: 57 (Open d100: 24)]
An eyeless black valravn is unaffected.```
I dub 912 (at least with 128 Wizard Base) "really good as long as you're not fighting a top 5 highest level creature in the game."
oblique coral
#

I'll have what he's having plz

alpine rampart
tough flame
#

Luck talisman prices should be through the roof initially if people have deep mechanical understanding. That's a very big if, but... yeaaaaah, even I'm not sure I can hold off getting to an L5 super quick, and I'm the type who will wait four years for the next Ensorcell step just so I can find someone selling cheap.

Edit: I guess I better explain how this is related to spell disablers. Luck is at its best when it's helping out things that are operating close to the margins, which a lot of these disablers have been. 😄 (Conversely, it's at its worst when doing things like helping someone who has 900 AS and can't possibly miss anyway.)

covert pewter
#

Cerebralites should now be impossible to knock down with ewave, FWIW.

oblique coral
#

But luck is only 20% max so its not going to make or break disablers specficially.

covert pewter
#

They were supposed to be immune, but SMR was treating their bonus as a penalty.

tough flame
#

People do underestimate 20% for some reason, despite living in a world where as little as 2% spell hindrance will drive some people absolutely mad.

pseudo fractal
# alpine rampart ```Cerebralites are immune to unbalance effects,``` 
A gust of wind tugs at your sleeves.  Suddenly, a fierce wind rips through the area, scattering everything in its path and making it difficult to remain standing.
The wind then subsides.
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.```
```You gesture at a fallen crusader.
A gust of wind tugs at your sleeves.  Suddenly, a fierce wind rips through the area, scattering everything in its path and making it difficult to remain standing.
The wind then subsides.
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.```
I suppose all of plane 4 could be immune although i don't recall that being the case before but i've been wrong before
covert pewter
# 
A wave of dark ethereal ripples moves outward from you.
[SMR result: -1073 (Open d100: 65)]
A glistening cerebralite is buffeted by the dark ethereal waves, but is unaffected.
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.```
oblique coral
#

But the 20% luck might activate on a disabler that is already hitting and not on a disabler that missed. Its def all luck!

alpine rampart
brittle bane
#

could we make 512 smr?

alpine rampart
#

maybe they weren't immune but they probably should have been immune

nova violet
#

They are now haha

tough flame
# oblique coral But the 20% luck might activate on a disabler that is already hitting and not on...

I mean, this is my argument for why 319 is massively overrated, but good luck convincing people of that either. 😄

Edit: And before anyone says it, yes, I know I've said repeatedly that 319 is busted in the Hive. That's because it's a place where things would hit you because they're using maneuvers, but don't hit you because their TD is bad, and generally at least one of those things isn't the case elsewhere.

fierce saddle
#

I dunno, I think 319 is pretty much the number one reason my cleric didn't die for like 40 levels of hunting when he was leveling

tough flame
#

Was he hunting a bunch of maneuver-spamming creatures or elemental CS casters or something?

fierce saddle
#

this was going from darkstone trolls/harbs, red forest circle 1 and 3, den of rot, various bandits in places, and some of the orchard place in solhaven, oh and minos/krags but ain't nothing impressive about not dying there, oh some stronghold and such in there too
basically landing/haven/icemule areas from like 55-95

olive hatch
#

Yikes, just took a mage hunting, and 410 went from a solid setup spell to very risky to use, timewise, in evironments where effective setups are essential.

alpine rampart
#

death to red forest

all my homies hate red forest

pseudo fractal
#

319 is great against rift crawlers

olive hatch
drifting marsh
# covert pewter I'm just stoked that I can reliably destroy conjurers in Moonsedge now.

I personally never had a problem with some creatures being tough for certain professions to handle in that it forces the choice to party up or be selective when hunting, or to come up with creative solutions to overcome in real need, though I also understand that some folk feel frustrated at facing a creature that they can't seem to do anything against alone.

dusty frigate
#

was it intentional for casting 515 to lose the 0 RT that was added after Divergence was removed?

dusty frigate
fathom wind
#

Red Forest bears just wanna give out hugs, that's all.

fierce saddle
#

hugs and 60 second RT warcries

fathom wind
#

My poor cleric has been squished repeatedly.

pearl creek
#

do not want angry hugs!
I bring every character I level there once as a benchmark. 😆

knotty mesa
#

i noticed a maybe weird thing. was helping a buddy in the boar, viper place in landing...cast an area web. when we got back to the table. I was still getting the SSR messages from critters wandering into it i guess. thought i'd mention it.

covert pewter
sonic marten
#

Does the EBP debuff from 909 still follow the amount described in wiki? IE 5% base debuff with increasing debuff per elemental lore? The description for debuff feeble says 50% reduction in EBP. [I assume this amount is only when applied through CMANs?]

night panther
# 
You grunt a short phrase of dwarven incantations as you prepare the Rapid Fire spell...
Your spell is ready.
You gesture.
You feel the magic surge through you.
Cast Roundtime 1 Second.```Did something happen to Rapid Fire as part of this release? Should be 0 second cast RT like 240, 140, 919
night panther
#

How is area web supposed to work? I'll admit to not having cast it often pre-review. I dropped an open web in a room with 4 creatures, SMR checks triggered once for two of them, one got webbed, then the rest of the room kept attacking me without facing any SMR checks from the area web

rose ore
#

erm... I've killed like.. 100 critters, and not had my (greater) somnis go off once.

#

It's usually like 1:4

unkempt zodiac
#

Probably best to put in a BUG about that. I've got no clue if anything was tweaked, but mine (longbow) was flaring regularly yesterday aternoon.

rose ore
#

Mine was flaring yesterday, too.

#

Hugely not a fan of things that cost a couple hundred to randomly stop working, but I'm sure that it'll get looked at and worked on, hopefully soon.

unkempt zodiac
# 
[SSR result: 175 (Open d100: 57)]

 ** For a split second, the striations of your somnis yumi expand into a sinuous pearlescent mist that rushes towards the tree spirit, enveloping it entirely and causing it to collapse, fast asleep! **

You take aim and fire a wooden arrow at a tree spirit!
  AS: +274 vs DS: +109 with AvD: +30 + d100 roll: +28 = +223
   ... and hit for 80 points of damage!
The arrow breaks into tiny fragments.
Roundtime: 3 sec.```

Just now, just for context.
rose ore
#

I have that part in ignores, and just kept the "rendered unconscious!" highlighted, since that's the actual result.

#

(removing it to test, will report back)

#

It firest off, but doesn't actually put them to sleep.

# 
  AS: +448 vs DS: +358 with AvD: +31 + d100 roll: +6 = +127
   ... and hit for 18 points of damage!
   Wild attack passes through the right leg, viciously assaulting the air!

[SSR result: 185 (Open d100: 49)]

 ** For a split second, the striations of your somnis bastard axe expand into a sinuous pearlescent mist that rushes towards the mage apprentice, enveloping him entirely and causing him to collapse, fast asleep! **

You swing a twin-bladed somnis bastard axe at an ethereal mage apprentice!
  AS: +473 vs DS: +355 with AvD: +31 + d100 roll: +60 = +209```

That DS should have fallen off a cliff.
unkempt zodiac
#

Oh interesting. Mine does the same. Critter isn't actually asleep. Guess something changed.

rose ore
#

I'm relieved that it's not just me.

dusky hatch
rose ore
#

ROFL they are awesome, the first hundred or so times. But the actual sleep message I have highlighted a fancy color, I think that makes up for it.

dusky hatch
#

My mantra is: If I can read what's happening in combat, I don't have enough flares firing! But yes, fancy highlight color does count for quite a lot 😁

rose ore
#

Hopefully it gets worked on, I spent minimum 700$ for that "rendered unconscious" bit.

rose ore
hexed loom
#

It can put Non-Corp Undead to sleep?

rose ore
#

Not sure about that, I hunt corp undead, and right now it's not putting anything to sleep 😄

fierce saddle
#

does voln symbol of sleep work on them still? my understanding is they basically use the same thing under the hood

humble moth
#

Can we consider a slight further reduction on 512 mana cost? I realize it was reduced... but it was reduced to... 10... Not a super meaningful reduction for mana cost, given it's newer, greater importance as an SMR defense reducer, with a continued need for a CS warding check, and likely needing 413 beforehand against higher mobs. When I look at all spells 10-20, I see 1614 being 5 mana, and spells like 619 also being 10. Just seems like 512 missed out a bit!
Even 912 was reduced to 8, which albeit generally minor in the grand scheme of things, seems much more palletable.

dusky hatch
#

Don't forget 135 being 7 mana, 80% reduction! It's still terrible, but affordably terrible at least

violet ferry
#

Am for more any argument that makes one of my most cast spells cheaper (512)

nova violet
#

I ran around the boreal forest some this morning throwing out 311/316/217 and it felt great, very effective

#

that was a better test than sanctum because just opening with 309 was not that great in boreal, but 311/309 was very good

oblique coral
#

How am I going to remember the mana cost of all these spells if it doesnt match the spell number?? 😵‍💫

coral spade
#

Cold snap does seem like it would be a good pure response to incoming SMR stuff that tends to squash pures. Shutting down 4 targets with Root means no CMANS, SMANS and I don't think any SMR actually?

Combined with a nice boost to SMR bonus for the caster on subsequent stuff. Cold snap into ewave will be a nice combo.

dusty rivet
nova violet
# 
  AS: +545 vs DS: +579 with AvD: +52 + d100 roll: +83 = +101
   ... and hits for 1 point of damage!
   You feel a slight twitching in your arm.
The guiding force leaves a disfigured hive thrall.
The air about you shifts abruptly, taking on an opalescent sheen that fails to resist the web!
You are firmly webbed in place.```

thank god for the disabler review because this only lasted eight seconds
coral spade
#

huh i should stand in front of an angargeist and see how long a sympathy lasts...

oblique coral
#

its kind of like the opposite process, Bolt--> disabler, minor watter to cold snap

humble moth
#

I do miss the slippery room AoE effect

dusky hatch
#

cries in 75 MjE ranks

coral spade
#

Well...I tried to get an angry ghost to sympathy me...

The entrance stands, framed by a pair of colossal red stone pillars, at the apogee of a crescent-shaped walk that curves along the interior of the fane.  Towering gigas statues, male and female, stand with battleaxes in hand in alcoves along either wall.  Their faces are unwelcoming and their postures unmistakably aggressive.  Ruddy stone steps breach the wall to the north, heading precipitously downward into stygian shadow.  You also see a quivering sanguine oozeling, a quivering sanguine oozeling, a deformed arm, a fleshless arm, a fleshless arm, a burnt arm, a pair of putrid arms, a fire cloud, a quivering sanguine oozeling that appears immobilized, a quivering sanguine ooze, a roiling crimson angargeist, a quivering sanguine ooze, an immense gold-bristled hinterboar, a lean dun fringe-toed yierka, a quivering sanguine ooze, an eyeless black valravn that is lying down and a roiling crimson angargeist.
Obvious exits: east, west```
Didn't work out
violet ferry
#

Since double snap is total lockdown

oblique coral
#

Most "wizardly" combo is water to soak, 2x cold snap, then spam Boulder to proc those 200 hp concussion bonuses.

#

They need an AOE soak option because that plus cone of lightning would lockdown whole rooms easy with stun shock effect.

acoustic hull
#

518 water

#

It would be really cool to have an elemental cloud that followed you around and just provided those basic elemental status effects to the room. Like a rain cloud, for example, that made everything wet

nova violet
#

914 evoke!

acoustic hull
#

Still surprised that 914 made the disabler review

#

I wonder if 514 will make the list

oblique coral
dusty rivet
#

now i can definitely fit in my 950 into 6 914s

oblique coral
dusty rivet
#

i don't know if it matters after 2 casts but i used to do it for giggles in SOS. it will kill everything it just takes a few rounds instead of ya know...just killing them instantly

#

also: 518 has cold and water options. the water does stream of water / impact crit just like 903. i don't know if it can soak, i can try to test if i remember later

edit: don't have to test! hell yeah

acoustic hull
#

You can do 518 cold and 518 water, both are valid. I use 518 water to apply soak on the REIM bosses

#

950 914x6 is currently 168 mana instead of the new cost. 950 probably needs new logic to take the new mana costs into account

dusky hatch
# 
   ... 50 points of damage!
   Eye spins backward into skull.  The armored battle mastodon falls to the ground dead.
As a heavily armored battle mastodon collapses, it lets out a shrill trumpet of despair.  Its trunk flails futilely before slamming to the ground, still.
PJ>
Your raging sandstorm swirls around a heavily armored battle mastodon, assaulting it with sand and bits of debris...
   ... 50 points of damage!
   Hard strike removes the right eye and a goodly bit of skull!
As a heavily armored battle mastodon collapses, it lets out a shrill trumpet of despair.  Its trunk flails futilely before slamming to the ground, still.
PJ>
Your raging sandstorm swirls around a heavily armored battle mastodon, assaulting it with violent winds...
   ... 40 points of damage!
   Chest strike.  Opponent knocked down and stunned!```
914 did something! 💪
sleek inlet
dusky hatch
#

It's still too slow, but 950 / 914 is funny

whole pumice
dusty rivet
#

i'd say for 914 if you ever have to actually fight a big hard to kill target that takes forever to kill it's high damage per mana and potentially keeps them controlled via the continual hits that happen autonomously but those targets are almost always also higher level then you and it has painfully bad level scaling. Maybe if it updates to SMR it could potentially be more reliable.

but interestingly now if you aren't overhunting it's a lot of damage for very cheap mana costs. if you were like, clearing out a warcamp or pirate ship or something where you're just under constant creature gen like that you could jsut churning it up since once the creatures stack up you're just kinda time shifted back 12 seconds on what's dying but things ultimately will keep dying (similar to open 710/open 720 in the same situations)

coral spade
dusky hatch
#

Maybe I shouldn't mess around with 914 on disir.. 😬

A shining winged disir's eyes glow with silvery grey light, and then everything around you shimmers to match the argentine color.
  CS: +490 - TD: +403 + CvA: +15 + d100: +31 == +133
  Warding failed!
  Your spirit quails beneath the onslaught of power as waves of sacred energy tear through your body!
   ... 23 points of damage!
   ... 25 points of damage!
   Crackling blue plasma roasts a smoking hole in your neck!```
#

Also what does "unsuccessfully hit" mean?

  CS: +553 - TD: +515 + CvA: +25 + d100: +48 == +111
  Warding failed!
You unsuccessfully hit a shining winged disir's metallic spear with the spell.
Cast Roundtime 2 Seconds.```
dusty frigate
#

Weapon Fire has been like that since it was implemented. I don't recall any reason ever being given

night panther
#

Anti magic spear maybe?

dusty frigate
#

no it has a chance to fail like that on any weapon

night panther
coral spade
dusty frigate
#

it will follow targets, not casters

coral spade
#

I feel like if it followed the caster around, that would be a very neat spell. Let the caster build it up with casts between fights to keep it churning for some AoE damage. Would be a fun dynamic

limpid geode
#

remember when the most-deadly thing in the game (GS3), maybe, were sand devils on teras? rescues there were crazy lol

coral spade
#

One of the major problems with all the windup spells is the targets are often dead before the wind up happens.

dusty frigate
sleek inlet
dusky hatch
coral spade
#

Something like that would be cool yeah. Imagine a hunting dynamic where your damage are all things like Sandstorm that chew enemies up through AOE burn down but your active casting is more or less JUST disablers. Like you are actively disabling things and letting the passive damage spells mop up.

pine charm
rose ore
fierce saddle
#

Now, I'm not sure I dare ask, but is 715 on the list for get mana reductions? I know because it has 6 forms that it might be tricky, but basically all of them are disables or setups.

narrow rapids
violet ferry
fierce saddle
#

I don't think they can update the effects of 715 without it devouring at least 3 souls in the process lol. Would be nice though for sure. One day when sorcerer review continues we should definitely bring that up haha.

For now I'd just like the mana cost reduction, cast time would be nifty as well.

keen cape
rose ore
dusky hatch
keen cape
#

from the wiki:
Spell Aiming is a major factor in determining if Weapon Fire successfully hits the target's weapon after scoring a 101+ endroll on the actual cast.

#

stuff over your level might just have some extra oomph required, which may involve ascension training

narrow rapids
#

Weapon Fire is garbage unless you're underhunting so much that you get no exp

oblique coral
#

yeah weapon fire should make the weapon "un-usable" until the effect runs out. I feel like they just pickup the weapon/insta swing then get stunned then break stun in like 1 RT

narrow rapids
#

You gesture at a lithe veiled sentinel.
CS: +537 - TD: +455 + CvA: +25 + d100: +84 == +191
Warding failed!
You successfully hit a lithe veiled sentinel's bronze cutlass with the spell.

** Numerous sigils along your fireleaf staff abruptly flare to brilliance! Pale energy surges from each, twining into an echo of your last spell... **

The weapon the sentinel is carrying is already affected by this spell.
Cast Roundtime 1 Second.
(Forcing stance down to guarded)

A burst of flame leaps from a patterned bronze cutlass a lithe veiled sentinel is wielding.
... 20 points of damage!
Nasty burns to left arm. Gonna need lots of butter.

A lithe veiled sentinel dips her shoulder and rushes towards you!
[SMR result: 49 (Open d100: 52, Penalty: 3)]
You stand firm and manage to maintain your balance.

^ I sure showed him 😂

#

Sentinels are base level 96 btw so that's underhunting

nova violet
#

Sentinels have got to be the least disable-able creature in the game haha

pine charm
#

As a person only ever on the receiving end of weapon fire. I don't want it to be any worse

limpid geode
#

if wizards want to be OP they should fixprof to bards and blow that weapon up instead of setting it on fire! 😛

  CS: +311 - TD: +170 + CvA: +25 + d100: +100 == +266
  Warding failed!
You focus your voice on a dybbuk's rusted chain with perfect resonance, causing it to shatter into thousands of tiny pieces!
   ... 45 points of damage!
   Massive blow to neck snaps it!
You hear a sound like a weeping child as a white glow separates itself from the dybbuk's body as it rises, disappearing into the heavens.
The dybbuk falls to the ground motionless.
Sing Roundtime 3 Seconds.```
#

(also a good reason why weapon fire deserves a little buff when a 2 mana spell is so much better)

zinc trout
night panther
violet ferry
#

I get the impression it's all like a grand total of 12 spells and abilities under the hood in tangled web. Itchy doesn't even get removed right since it seems like it's an effect that gives you the rash curse. Is a nightmare.

night panther
#

When I get hit with itchy in Moonsedge I just hit 'sym return' and go afk for 4 minutes because that's how long it lasts. Absolutely trash experience.

unkempt zodiac
#

You misspelled "Rift", and you have to 'sym return' a second time, but otherwise same

faint cargo
unkempt zodiac
#

put right in disk
Edit to reply to above: Very fair point, and a constant concern

nova violet
#

weapon fire is the classic amazing for enemies terrible for players spell, I would love it if it somehow became not that

#

alternately it should just immediately kill you when enemies cast it on you because you know that's where we're going with it

#

although that would eliminate the best part of weapon fire which is when you raise somebody who just died to weapon fire and they start getting hit by weapon fire again because nobody told you it was weapon fire

faint cargo
#

In a time before weapons were worth a Prius it probably made a lot more sense as a spell.

pine charm
#

Why can't they just make it go away if you stick it in a container? Mobs don't have containers

nova violet
#

this is gnoll ranger erasure

pine charm
#

Gnolls are super duper strange

dusty rivet
narrow rapids
acoustic bough
#

Just make it disarm and attack the owner.

dusky hatch
dusty rivet
#

i'm not entirely sure what cripple left arm does for block chance/ds at this point, and i'm afraid to ask.

rough swift
#

You can also disable the left arm to remove shields as a factor. Cripple can pretty reliably do this.

Not that I know the math for it, but I know it works to some degree.

dusty rivet
#

i've never had to use it that way but that's an interesting point. you could cripple 2x left arm (if you even need to do it twice) and that might be a large enough wound it just drops it

dusky hatch
#

Fair, I haven’t explored cripple. Either way, it’s a highly limited function that needs more options!

dusty rivet
#

indeed. i think cripple is pretty underrated. the quick root is situaionally really nice.

worldly sphinx
#

Pain (711) will no longer be a guaranteed safe way to handle a dangerous critter.

dusky hatch
#

Why? Stagger is still RT

wary pond
#

so tremors is supposed to cost 7 mana now? it is costing me 9 mana still

dusky hatch
#

But also “guaranteed safe way to handle dangerous critters” is a bit dubious as far as expectations go anyway 😬

rare mulch
#

So finally looked on my Wizzy, 410 is pointless 🤨, so am trying 912, at least it seems to work..so we shall see

rough swift
#

My understanding is they're still working on 410/435

dusty rivet
#

as long as you hit the 4+ second mark you're still guranateed to 100 -> dead it no matter how many casts you get but i suppose if you're barely landing and get a fumble you could have a bad time potentially now

dusky hatch
rare mulch
#

Capped Wizzy toooooo

Is there a way to go to the top of a page, like here

#

And how do I see pins?

acoustic bough
#

If you're on mobile. Click on the title at the top, then click on settings
If you're on desktop, then click on the pin at the top

rare mulch
tough flame
#

A little late to the Cripple talk, but it's the kind of thing war pures would use if they had weapon techniques. I think it's totally fine in a vacuum and my second paladin made good use of it while leveling because they're left in the cold with no Hamstring and Shield Strike takes its sweet time to get good (or even learnable) with the combat training prerequisites. Still, on a square, ranger, or bard I'd definitely just Hamstring (even with a shield build, never mind TWC).

dusty rivet
#

it looks like a 10% block DS/outright block penalty btw

#

on top of whatever the wound /status you cause inflicts.

limpid geode
#

weapon fire against players: deal damage to the hand holding it, then drop it safely into the shadows where it can be RECOVERed later. That's what I'd change it to (against players).

coral spade
#

Uh. I dont want to deal with that. Ill just sym return and come back later

coral spade
#

Id imagine pures would value anything that can stop a shield bash before it happens.

#

One thing Im missing, and its maybe cause i dont spell. Does any of this stuff so far reduce TD? Like if you wanted to CS cast, is any of this helping?

night panther
#

212 (reduce spiritual TD), 217 (AOE 212), 413 (reduce elemental TD)

It’s very helpful

wheat moat
#

Was bard depression song changed?

dusky hatch
#

All bard base songs are the same as they were before, they rolled back the few changes they had made and are now a WIP

violet ferry
#

Yeah, making the TD pushdown skills auto hit was a huge boost.

limpid geode
# 
Tapping the moons above, you draw down a shaft of swirling moonlight and bathe a shadow steed in its diffuse glow.
[SMR result: 205 (Open d100: 34)]
A shadow steed is caught fast, the light of Lornon arresting his movements.
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.```
611 is still costing 11 mana and 3s cast rt
tough flame
#

Are spells like 212, 217, and 607 intended to still not count as contributing to battles for exp?

(They didn't before either, which made them great for helping lower level characters hunt while avoiding wrecking their loot. Just wondering if that's supposed to still be the case since there was a note about changes to how disablers count for contributions.)

fierce saddle
night panther
#

As I lie here in 2 minutes of Vertigo duration in the Atoll Ruins, I wonder... was Vergito missed when maximum durations of debuffs were being put in place? The initial hit was a 78 second duraton from a 116 endroll

nova violet
#

a lot of spells were not listed as being updated to the SNDF yet

night panther
#

Unfortunate!

nova violet
limpid geode
#

that's a good point - would it be asking too much to want debuffs to give me my share of EXP but if it's against a target I can't learn from, not mess with the exp/loot if I'm helping someone out?

tough flame
#

Yeah, sometimes I seriously cringe when I go on large scale MHO/CHE bounty help hunts and see capped characters using Sweep, Tackle, etc. in the Stronghold or wherever.

acoustic hull
#

I think the philosophy is that they have to design around the players with the worst intentions, so the systems have to assume that “helping someone out” is actually just ridiculously paced power leveling to avoid all danger

violet ferry
#

Stupid 98% ruining it for everybody else

limpid geode
#

I mean I think you could always do that anyways - prior to this update (and haven't confirmed it's changed) - I don't think there was any penalty for having your level 100 web everything in sight for you while leveling? am I wrong there?

covert pewter
#

Anything that applies one of our major debuff effects should now be contributing properly.

#

So, like, immobilize, frenzy, calm, etc.

acoustic hull
#

From the wizard kit, the only thing you could do to not interfere is buffs to the ally and 530s on the mobs

violet ferry
#

That said, group celery is pretty big help

acoustic bough
#

Do you put peanut butter on your celery?

pearl creek
#

have there been any comments about the expected range of efficacy on the disablers converted to SMR? As I run through bounties on my post cap squares, it stands out that training "normally", and not giving up any skills related to maxing my standard attack, results in more than +100 to the D roll for rank 3/4 cmans against like level creatures. They're not far off that margin vs some of the easier ascension stuff too.

Should people expect post cap casters to see similar success rates? I realize it's being reviewed, I simply haven't caught up and was wondering if any expectations were set around the target range.

covert pewter
#

We're still looking at SMR.

alpine rampart
#

this is a weird question, but did anything change behind the scenes that modifies any of the physical SMR stuff? Warcries/dirtkick/tackle/etc been acting kind of weird today

namely in that things very rarely hit me with them and now they are all the time, meanwhile I'm struggling to hit them

broken knoll
#

You have a lot of survival? Reduction gained there

alpine rampart
#

I have 0% survival, but this is vs almost exclusively physical effects which is why I'm asking if they were touched somewhere along the way, the survival stuff should in theory only be vs spell disablers

coral spade
acoustic bough
#

I would expect the benefit of survival to be applied to the debuff. Which in theory shouldn't matter if it's applied by a spell or a physical skill.

nova violet
#

That’s worth asking, for sure — is the survival/KS benefit limited only to skills that have been converted to SNDF

limpid geode
#

Are enemies getting this buff from survival as well? do creatures get trained in survival? I feel like 711 isn't giving me the full 7 seconds anymore (against confluence elementals) but hard to confirm. If it were reduced by 20% I wouldn't be surprised.

grizzled lintel
#

the survival benefit is for players only, I thought?

alpine rampart
acoustic bough
#

What's SNDF? I'm not seeing anything to help me determine that acronym from the pins.

limpid geode
#

standard negative duration formula - Tikba gave it an acronym tonight 😛

analog nexus
alpine rampart
#

I might just be crazy, after some testing with my warriors, I could have sworn carns cry used to impart a bit of RT, but it looks like it's just a straight immobilize with a varying length, anyways it's SSR and probably in theory shouldn't have been effected

pearl creek
#

Carns cry applies terrified, which means there are a few outcomes based on the success margin iirc. They could flee or become immobilized on the spot, etc. Similar to the scary cast spells but with no chance to kill

glad lotus
#

I have never seen a mob flee from Carne Cry.

coral spade
#

they used to. That stopped with PSM3. it was one of the changes. Its why no one really used it before.

covert pewter
#

Elemental Saturation, Weapon Deflection, Interference, and Mass Interference have now been updated to contribute for creature experience. Dispels will also do so upon successfully removing a spell from a creature.

tough flame
# 
A barbed rotting woodsman is buffeted by the snapping and crackling ethereal sphere and is knocked to the ground.
   ... 230 points of damage!
   Hideously bright electrical bolt sends right arm into another universe.  Happy traveling.
The rotting woodsman stares at her mangled stump as if she is unable to comprehend that it is missing.
   The woodsman's logging axe falls to the ground.
[SMR result: 415 (Open d100: 23, Bonus: 100)]
A wood wight is buffeted by the snapping and crackling ethereal sphere and is knocked to the ground.
   ... 150 points of damage!
   Massive electrical bolt burns a hole through the back and kidneys```
Is damage supposed to be uncapped on 435? (The endrolls are ultra high because I'm just picking off random level 20 things while coincidentally hunting bandits.) I could've sworn that 435 used to just pull directly from the crit table, so it would cap at around 75.
pine charm
#

lol 230 points of damage....that is nasty

tough flame
#

It is pretty funny, but so far I haven't gotten above 90 on the actual capped bandits. 🤣 Even 90 is still a higher ceiling than it used to be, though!

covert pewter
#

I'll be capping the damage. It may be less fun, but it'll help if you get abysmal luck with a creature.

pine charm
#

Can you let Kenstrom do an invasion with super 435 first?

dusky hatch
#

But don't you guys need our tears of despair from being obliterated by open rolls to sustain yourselves?

broken knoll
#

Kenstrom invasions are kind of soft if you ask me. I've long reported him to please kill people. Marstreforn is who you gotta watch for

#

Who did that cold weapon invasion? Only 7 of us were alive, barely. That was rough. I had to go buy a drake weapon.

echo aurora
#

That one was fun.

fringe orchid
covert pewter
tough flame
covert pewter
#

It doesn't apply Stagger, so yeah.

#

Once it does, it'll work. 🙂

tough flame
#

Ahhh, didn't realize that was the plan.

echo aurora
#

612 is getting stagger?

buoyant steeple
#

I do not know if this is related, but we noticed earlier that fallen crusaders are health regenerating now in spite of 711's RT lock.

obtuse gorge
#

It would be wonderful if the mana cost on the initial cast of 514 got updated.

limpid geode
rose ore
#

Day 2 of Somnis still not putting creatures to sleep.

faint cargo
# rose ore Day 2 of Somnis still not putting creatures to sleep.

My Somnis bow seems to be working fine.

 ** For a split second, the striations of your somnis longbow expand into a sinuous pearlescent mist that rushes towards the Ithzir seer, enveloping him entirely and causing him to collapse, fast asleep! **
An Ithzir seer goes limp as he is rendered unconscious!```
rose ore
# 

You swing a twin-bladed somnis bastard axe at a rotting Citadel arbalester!
The Citadel arbalester evades the attack by a hair!
Roundtime: 4 sec.
R>
A rotting Citadel arbalester swings a closed fist at you!```
faint cargo
#

Weird. Greater or lesser? Edit for below: Also, greater, not sure what's going on there.

rose ore
#

greater

# 
(somnis flare)
  AS: +477 vs DS: *+298* with AvD: +32 + d100 roll: +80 = +291```
unkempt zodiac
#

FWIW, it's working fine on non-undead:


 ** For a split second, the striations of your somnis yumi expand into a sinuous pearlescent mist that rushes towards the cold guardian, enveloping it entirely and causing it to collapse, fast asleep! **
A cold guardian goes limp as it is rendered unconscious!

You take aim and fire a wooden arrow at a cold guardian!
  AS: +266 vs DS: +113 with AvD: +31 + d100 roll: +56 = +240
   ... and hit for 81 points of damage!
The arrow breaks into tiny fragments.
Roundtime: 3 sec.```
```>l
...a cold guardian that is sleeping```
rose ore
#

It's working on bandits.

vital umbra
#

Maybe those mobs are bugged then - not somnis itself.

rose ore
#

will bug them when I finish with bandits.

sleek inlet
#

Please move the somnis discussion to another thread/channel.

rose ore
coral spade
#

Has grasp of the grave been affected by these changes? I was just locked in perpetually refreshing RT that NEVER got to zero for about 40 seconds.

pearl creek
#

that's been there since they changed it to stagger - it can keep you locked if there's multiple in a room. It's a lot less likely, and you won't see yourself get to 60+s stacked anymore.

coral spade
#

Its usually a struggle, but I always manage to at least get a chance to spam crawl or symbol of return or something. Must be just bad luck. Thanks.

pearl creek
#

That tracks with my experience. It's worlds better than it used to be, but there's still a chance it'll time/stack like you described.

fierce saddle
#

yeah 709 was converted to stagger like a year or so ago so it shouldn't ever have actual stacking RT, just refresh

median thistle
#

Is there a comprehensive doc listing of all the changes anywhere? I see all the pinned posts but it would be nice to have a wiki entry or something that covers the whole shebang in a more readable format

nova violet
#

there is a wiki page but it only contains the first few posts right now

median thistle
#

That is v 🐐'd of U TYVM

vale hull