#[Official] Treasure Improvement Proposals & Suggestions

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limber creek
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...yet.

unkempt chasm
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Debating how I want to do the test I promised of a loot hunt today pre-monthly-reset and another post-monthly-reset in the same area.

Do you guys want with or without a major loot boost? The major loot boost would probably result in a bit of a smaller sample size because I'd have to run back to town far more often to drop off boxes. Would probably be more exciting silver-wise, though. šŸ¤£

fair loom
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I'll have my AI text generator connect with your AI text collector and see what we can come up with! šŸ™‚

latent fossil
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Very fair. though I think it captured the major themes. I asked it to give me an indepth polling of all mentioned topics by discussion and posting frequency and the same general major points rose to the top.

That being said, no, not perfect. I'd suggest responding to it and emphasizing anything critically important that was not outlined. Would never consider an AI a conclusive summary.

It would need a lot more training data and guidance to make high value suggestions.

unkempt chasm
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Just did a major loot boost run of the Sanctum. Items are sold in Icemule for the +5% boost since my bard is sylvan; scarabs are an exception sold in Solhaven so my rogue gets the 5% boost there. Both characters therefore have a 33% total boost on item sales.

Fanatics looted: 35
Lurks looted: 16
Monstrosities looted: 15
Sentinels looted: 23
Shapers looted: 24
Total looted: 113

Raw silvers looted: 28,890
Value of gems looted: 204,279
Value of pawnables and reagents looted: 16,434
Value of gemshoppables (that are not gems) looted: 15,601

Number of boxes: 28
Number of scarabs: 3
Value of scarabs: 20,615
Silvers in boxes: 62,048
Value of gems in boxes: 115,147
Value of pawnables and reagents in boxes: 13,948
Value of gemshoppables in boxes: 67,065

Number of gems worth purifying later: 64
Total directly looted: 265,204
Total from boxes: 278,823
Overall total: 544,027

Will do this again in 9 hours or so to see if I'm just paranoid about loot suddenly getting better at the start of the month even on non-loot-capped characters.

lethal hull
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Thats on 2 characters?

runic steeple
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Loot pressure has always seemed odd to me. More so once loot cap was put in place. It doesn't make people (generally) move to a new area, it just makes them complain about no loot in the place they hunt. It doesn't seem to do what the intended purpose was for the vast majority.

flint wharf
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Has it been stated by a GM with certainty where soft cap starts? (15m?)
And what hard cap is? (30m?)

green elbow
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16m/36m

flint wharf
unkempt chasm
# lethal hull Thats on 2 characters?

No, solo bard hunting. My rogue was just to open the boxes afterward.

(Bards annihilate the Sanctum better than anything else I've found besides sorcerers, incidentally. Sorcerers mostly win out because they can get through shapers' 319 far more often.)

cobalt jetty
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How much experience does your Bard have.

lethal hull
unkempt chasm
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Yes. And 52.8m.

lethal hull
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christ

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yeah thats never happening for me in Sanctum šŸ˜„

unkempt chasm
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I mean, that's why I included the number of creatures killed. In case my next test is at a time when the place has fewer other people in there driving up the spawn rate, I have to be able to account for amount of silvers relative to kills. šŸ˜„

flint wharf
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So close to 5k per critterā€¦ that feels like a good way to measure.

stiff thistle
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Lol 113 killed in 15 minutes. Nerf bards immediately

unkempt chasm
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I'm pretty sure my sorcerer could exceed one kill per ~7.965 seconds in the Sanctum, though that'll have to be some other night since I'm getting ready for the next loot test in an hour and a half!

unkempt chasm
#

Take two of Sanctum major loot boost run done, stats coming up shortly...

Fanatics looted: 25
Lurks looted: 8
Monstrosities looted: 14
Sentinels looted: 30
Shapers looted: 21
Total looted: 98

Raw silvers looted: 23,178
Value of gems looted: 166,446
Value of pawnables and reagents looted: 20,412
Value of gemshoppables (that are not gems) looted: 5,307

Number of boxes: 26
Number of scarabs: 3
Value of scarabs: 21,945
Silvers in boxes: 58,897
Value of gems in boxes:
Value of pawnables and reagents in boxes: 14435
Value of gemshoppables in boxes: 82,101

Number of gems worth purifying later: 63
Total directly looted: 215,343
Total from boxes: 301,311
Overall total: 516,654

So what have I learned? Well, I mean, it's a sample size of one hunt each, so it can't accomplish too much there. Still interesting to me, though. After the month reset, I only killed 86.73% as many creatures this time (the place was less stirred up) but still got 94.97% as much loot, which is ~109.5% as good as before on a per creature basis. This one was also heavier on sentinels while the previous run was heavier on fanatics and lurks, in each case speaking both relatively and in absolute numbers.

limber creek
ocean vector
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I can't believe the numbers I'm seeing. I thought I was truly bossing when I was loot hunting plane 5 for about a million every 3 hours. (or was it more, it was close to that). I daren't hunt the big cap areas, I'm just not skilled enough or padded enough in wares. This has made me want to at least try though!

cobalt jetty
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I think it's important to note that her characters have 50 to 60 million experience.

buoyant rain
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Leafiaras numbers are in no way representative of 'casual user' results. I don't say that disparagingly, but it's not a baseline one should compare themselves to.

finite yew
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While this data and conversation is valid it might be better not for this thread. Maybe discuss elsewhere and distill the improvement suggestions here

buoyant rain
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I will say, now that the brand new hunting ground in ZL is completely dirt poor, I can't wait for staff to very seriously consider eliminating area hunting pressure in favor of just using the loot cap. Not only is it simpler, but it actually gives folks more of an incentive to hunt areas per their interests, rather than as a response to avoiding other players who maybe are hunting one area too much.

Due to losing my weapons with disarm and then dying and having to pay to get them back, I believe I ran it a net loss yesterday in this brand new ascension hunting area. When I only have a few hours a week to play the game on average, any loss feels monumentally more terrible. And I say that having gone from hunting on average 5 to 8 hours a day to less than 5 hours a week.

lethal hull
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I actually think my character belongs hunting in Moonsedge, but I'm not going to do that when the loot in HW is better and I have to compete for the same things as people who can bring in 500k in 15 mins...

cobalt jetty
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She does have 5x more experience. There should be a reward for that sort of dedication. (In terms of wealth gain/competition.)

buoyant rain
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My bard has 40m, I didn't feel like I got that kind of reward for my time.

cobalt jetty
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Yes, but you self nerf šŸ˜›

buoyant rain
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I can use 1030 šŸ˜„

cobalt jetty
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I too use 1030, but I rely mostly on a weapon for efficiency. IMO, it's too high a mana cost to use for a long period of time.

buoyant rain
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I do do that when I feel like farming. Or, I will go whips until I hit an dangerous/annoying capacity, then switch to 1030 and continue through another full wrack.

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*encumbrance

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The skins in the Hive tanked very quickly. At first they were running 4-12k. Now they are about 1-3k. That's still good, but given the weight of the rock gems, you get weighted down very quickly. Each one also takes ~5s to open (and only outside the hive). If a group had weight reduction bags and nothing else on them, maybe they could farm it. But it would take a long time, I think.

buoyant rain
cobalt jetty
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The whole breaking open rocks to get the gems thing sounds like a nightmare and that alone would keep me from ever hunting there.

If it were an extremely rare thing, like 0.01% and provided an extremely high level gem (like a confluence plinite), then maybe, but it just sounds annoying

buoyant rain
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Oh, I guess improvements are still relevant to discussing Hive treasure. So on that I agree Alastir. When I opened a few hunts-worth of rocks, it took me from fried to numb. Just to open those. I hadn't gone to pruify anything, or sell anything, or go somewhere and chat with anyone in game.. I was just mindlessly opening rocks and creating screen scroll for a second and compulsory step toward generating treasure. That time sink eliminates any hope for a bard to profit via Purifying gems, as it takes 40-43 seconds to purify a gem at that level range for a bard (upward of 52 even). That itself is another massive time sink away from creating more treasure. The sense Dev wants to slow the treasure generation there is palpable. But I do not have that kind of time anymore for GemStone. Is this just another place I shouldn't expect to hunt? Thankfully, we can script opening rocks.

I want to hunt my wizard (25m) and empath (30m) more while Naamit is mindlessly opening rocks via script. Something that would be a beneficial improvement Hive treasure (and I can copy this over to the Hive folder if desired):

I would like to see a new drop similar to the jelly that afford hyperavoidance of the very strong SMR attacks in the Hive for a period of time. A fancy mario mushroom, idk. They both get wrecked on the regular, and being able to boost that briefly to a major degree would make me less frustrated about the massive time sink on those rocks.

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Maybe I am pining for Bard Lucky Charms. ā˜˜ļø

buoyant rain
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On the other hand, if you get 5 person group in one of the Hive areas (and can survive), you could easily mow down a hundred critters in 15 minutes.

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Forget anyone else in the area surviving.

oblique path
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There surely are more creative ways to force a player to return to town than giving them a weight and time tax in town. Also doesnā€™t it just add to the scroll and disrupt conversation if someone is opening rocks on the town center ?

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I say the hive mind takes control of your character and starts attacking players

flint wharf
lethal hull
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What am i missing? I asked if it was 15 mins and she said yes?

flint wharf
lethal hull
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oh! well jesus okay that makes way more sense

flint wharf
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But maybe Iā€™m wrong too. Heh. We should probably have Leafiara clarify

IMG_1013.png
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If that was 15 mins. My mind is blown and Iā€™m doing something wrong

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Rereadingā€¦ Iā€™m actually not sure now. šŸ¤·šŸ»ā€ā™‚ļø

cobalt jetty
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52.8m is how much XP the character has

She said it was also extremely swarmy, which it can become, when the 2 MA groups that frequent the area arrive.

lethal hull
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Well. Then im back to my loot doomspiral

white light
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52.8m was the experience question

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and no, 500K from a single character hunting in 15 minutes is like... 3 orders of magnitude outside normal. even I don't come close to that

finite yew
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I have asked that we please stick to the spirit of the thread and include only succinct suggestions. Please move the active conversation and discussion about existing hunting areas to a different venue. I am turning slow mode on here.

flint wharf
gaunt ridge
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Last time I silver hunted I pulled 1.1mil in an hour with major loot boosts the whole time. 3x cap rogue.. I donā€™t think I can deal with doing that long enough to hit soft loot cap, let alone hard.

unkempt chasm
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Righty, back to improvement suggestions. Just dropping loot pressure is the lowest hanging fruit.

However, if thatā€™s off the table, hereā€™s the dilemma I see. All criticisms of the current treasure system would apply to any new aspect introduced unless the new aspect was, itself, somehow exempt from loot pressure.

That would include options like being on its own separate adjacent system or involving drops so common that even heavily pressured areas would still frequently see the new perks. The former option sounds like reinventing the wheel and the latter option sounds like an inventory management issue waiting to happen in low pressure areas.

green elbow
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So basically, this entire discussion is moot unless loot pressure goes away.

flint wharf
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also - any reason for a soft cap if there is a hard cap?

lime hatch
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soft cap still limits silver generation - both of these things (removing pressure and removing soft cap) would lead to more silver generated so they'd probably be a bit against them. Personally I'd love to see loot pressure removed even if it meant lowering the soft cap to compensate.

green elbow
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I would much rather have a period of getting less and less loot than going "WHY AM I NOT FINDING ANYTHING" all of a sudden.

lime hatch
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I agree. I think such a change would continue to move in the direction of improving the experience for most players.

unkempt chasm
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I guess a third option to keep loot pressure in place for current treasure while exempting a new form of treasure from it is going the Reim route and having everything drop account-bound alt currency that goes directly to TICKET.

Not sure Iā€™d count on this being done in a way Iā€™d enjoy, though. Things like collectible rewards or Reim rewards typically havenā€™t been enticing to me at allā€¦ at least, not enticing other than the top end of each, but it seems like weā€™re trying to solve for every player here and not the super hardcore grinder.

flint wharf
# green elbow I would much rather have a period of getting less and less loot than going "WHY ...

Just clarity around WHERE we are within the loot cap system would be appreciated.
It's hard to tell if something is broken if you have no idea how it's supposed to be functioning at any point in time. I find myself constantly asking:

  • Am i not finding loot because the loot pressure in an area?
  • Is this account in soft loot cap territory?
  • Was it just an unlucky hunt?

Clarity of the loot cap system, in game, incorporated into the "resource" verb, or something similar... even if it's just showing a percentage of cap for the month, would be my single biggest request. It also feels like it's a pretty easy thing that woudl eliminate a TON of end of the month griping/questions that surface, every... single... month... within some of the threads

Also wondering if I say clarity and loot cap a few more times, maybe the AI feeders will use their word cloud magic to incorporate it into the feedback šŸ˜

lethal hull
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I think loot pressure needs to go, but what exactly that means when you talk about a replacement is not super clear.

Someone suggested loot floors based on 10 level bands. I'm here for that.

unkempt chasm
# lethal hull I think loot pressure needs to go, but what exactly that means when you talk abo...

Okay, here's an example... Let's say the treasure system has been spiced up because they've added alter fodder, temporary supercharged items, rare fluff scripts, tokens that can unlock existing fluff items, flare tokens, and all the other suggestions in here.

But if loot pressure still existed and affected all of these things, then enjoyability might not even improve much. After all, the majority of players would be pressured out of having anything more than a tiny chance of finding them. (I can only say "the majority of players" with any confidence because, by definition, the most pressured areas are the most hunted areas--i.e. where most players are hunting.)

So these new things would have to work around loot pressure or it just seems like a nonstarter to me.

bold lintel
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If I'm already not getting any loot (Just did a major loot boost in OTF, my kills where magnitudes of miles behind Leafi but I got literally zero boxes and 30k worth of gems) then adding really cool new stuff to the loot tables means pretty much nothing on a personal level, if loot pressure sees no changes.

I'd love all the things Leafi just mentioned, but I'd mentally catalog them along with legendary drops - "Wow that's cool for someone else."

lethal hull
green elbow
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so any additions to available loot is going to be predicated on loot pressure being removed so loot in general can actually be found, period.

lethal hull
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I mean. Here is the thing. Until I read all the saved posts about loot pressure and how it worked on the wiki, I didn't realize that it is quite literally one player harming another player through the intended game mechanics.

That player doesn't mean to, and the harm is amplified by MA players, but it what is happening. No system should do this. None at all. Its a zero- sum player vs player dynamic and is shocking in its design when really thought about. I don't know what the designers had in mind, but this is bad for the game.

So, that aspect of loot pressure 100% needs to go as a step 1 to getting anywhere.

runic steeple
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I feel like the intent was to make people utilize all the hunting areas with better loot as a carrot. I just don't see that for the bulk of players, only the silver farmers. The rest of us just complain about the terrible loot. I've complained about loot in OTF for like 2 years now, I haven't moved though, because silver generation is a secondary element of my hunting.

trail cloak
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Iā€™m not going to comment one way or another on the idea to remove the loot floor, but just going back to the idea of spicing up the normal treasure dropsā€¦

Even if people arenā€™t finding as much of the ā€œnew stuffā€, just knowing that itā€™s possible to get new, cool stuff is a big plus for many people. As an example, I know the likelihood of me getting a legendary drop is low enough that mayyyybe Iā€™d get one a decade, the fact that theyā€™re out there is pretty neat

fair loom
jaunty gate
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Chuck some pay event currency in boxes sometimes! (Never going to happen but itā€™d be spicy for sure.)
Put ā€œvouchersā€ for instant mind clearers or LTE boosts or RPA orbs in boxes
Loot cap tracking in game, even if by rough bands (quartile or something similar)
More systems like the..uhh, I forget what theyā€™re called, the explody bags from DR that make useless loot useful (materials for enhancive rerolling system once itā€™s announced)

fair loom
unkempt chasm
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The legendary system is really helped out by being possible to find with bandits and (even non-krolvin) OSA.

ripe juniper
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I think we figured out why Wyrom reports the majority of players don't see any effects of loot cap!

normal bloom
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Because itā€™s loot pressure?

unkempt chasm
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Yeah, admittedly a huge wrench in all of this is that turning off loot pressure entirely--or even setting it to affect individual characters--would cause some Nelemar and OTF problems.

That's why I had my mind on the idea of redesigning it to somehow assess how dangerous creatures actually are instead of just operating on the assumption that how rarely they're hunted corresponds to how dangerous they are. Just not sure that's worth the effort to make happen either, though.

lime hatch
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What about maybe just a higher "floor" on loot pressure's effects?

cobalt jetty
tropic granite
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Reading through this thread the most surprising thing is how many people werent aware of loot pressure of how it works

lethal hull
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I mean, the details were buried in the Saved Posts section of the Treasure System Wiki Page. Its not exactly an easy find

zenith mountain
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I'm sure somebody already said this but I didn't see it so sorry if it's a repeat, but I think everything with properties should have its loresong temp unlocked like duskruin loot. The game is in a different place and (correct me if I'm wrong bards) bards are not gonna be pissed that you're taking away their temporary unlock work. Most people can't be bothered to sing to a bunch of junk for a tip anymore. Nearly every other game tells you the properties of the stuff you find by default.

And if that means its all perm unlocked when the new bard stuff comes out, even better.

unkempt chasm
# cobalt jetty Why do you say it would cause Nelemar/OTF problem?

As far as I can tell, a ton of changes in the past few years have derived from one or both of these principles:

  1. Encourage people to hunt challenging creatures in complex combat scenarios
  2. Opening the silver faucet too much (again) is harmful to the game long-term

This includes things like loot cap, getting rid of Ebon Gate digging, getting rid of the loot-heavy Duskruin sewer focus, group size capping in Reim, loot cap applying to Reim, arguably the entire design of OSA (because krolvin ships have to spawn for you rather than you actively looking for them for loot's sake), Ascension creature design that aimed to slow down combat, Divergence that also aimed to slow down combat, and more.

So I think it's too hard a sell (to staff) to suggest things like basing loot on a creature's level alone or even just setting a floor based on level. The effects it would have on Nelemar and OTF alone would go against both these principles that have guided so many things recently.

cobalt jetty
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I'm not sure the faucet is an issue when the median silver gain is 2m per month.

I think it would make an insignificant change overall if OTF/Nelemar loot had a minimum baseline, but it would help those who struggle to meet even the 2m/month.

lethal hull
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1.1m silver median. And frankly, I think its time to get rid of the design that 95% of the games population has to be artificially stalled for the sake of what 5% of the population is doing. Im personally sick of it

buoyant rain
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I made 500k on 2 major loot boosts after rolling up a new character yesterday. Level 2 and 3 critters are still among the most profitable hunting in the game. šŸ˜€
It shouldn't *have to be this way to come out even or ahead.

limber creek
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how did you have major loot boosts the same day you rolled up a character? Those are awarded on days 12, 23, and 28...

buoyant rain
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You retain all daily login boosts when you reroll a character.
I should note that I'm not advocating for this or for low-level loot to change, but instead for the high level areas to improve.

lethal hull
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I absolutely doesn't feel good, btw, to get up for an early hunt and find someone afk scripting and killing things in the rooms you are in. Feels even better knowing that person is actively reducing my rewards with their policy breaking behavior

buoyant rain
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Oh gd this ghost town's loot is so good.I haven't made this much loot since like 2022. Heck maybe even since 2017. I sat in this town's central area for like 3 hrs yesterday and didn't see a single person. The town has quality loot, I can say that much. šŸ˜‚

brave turtle
lethal hull
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I did. No one is going to be around to enforce it at 7 am EST.

flint wharf
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shocked anyone would be scripting with something (afk or not) that attacks critters in the same room as someone else... especially assuming that's post cap?

snow violet
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Has happened to me a couple of times in the HW also. People would walk in, kill stuff in the room, start skinning / looting. Though typically the AFK hunters are running more polite scripts.

lethal hull
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Maybe the presence of my yierka messed up the script cause it looks like a monster on screen. dunno

placid vortex
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POLICY REPORTS message staff not in game as well, and I can assure you we check almost all of them. There are GMs here around the clock. I'm typically around really late, and while my main duties aren't as a GM anymore, if no one is here at 4am to answer them, I jump right in.

kind steeple
coarse rampart
snow violet
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That would be lovely. I got no response when attempting to interact.

jolly lily
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As far as suggestions, I don't have any Lornon themed characters, but I feel like more Luukos specific loot would be a welcome improvement for everyone. Thank you!

lethal hull
stiff thistle
merry pecan
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4AM convos with Wyrom get weird. Don't say you weren't warned.

placid vortex
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Given that Auchand and I do the majority of our talks around that time... It explains A LOT.

tender helm
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4am is the best time. It's when we should all have our most important conversations.

white light
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I feel it's worth noting that at some point I want to know when the not-weird conversations occur

lethal hull
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Im up at 4 am. Ill bring coffee

blazing elbow
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I'm not, keep it down.

Side note, what a time to be alive. GMs asking for loot feedback.

merry pecan
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(It turned out to be an excuse for him to get another boat.)

hot quarry
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Dam, I totally missed this thread, did someone atleast mention self-cannibalizing enhancive-altering drops like POE? You found a <gem of flicking light>, you may reroll 1 offensive enhancive line item into a new random one. Also, <Seed of chaotic energy>, you may remove 1 enhancive line item... etc. Just add timer to them where they have to be used in 30-60 days and be rare.

latent fossil
hot quarry
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Yeah, that would probably need to be a tradeoff

latent fossil
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in PoE I'd hold exalts cause.. yknow. currency. But if its like solo self found you'd just roll it.

loud zephyr
jaunty gate
lime hatch
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tokens to use at the reroller would be nice rare drops - and maybe could even encourage more silver drain by getting people "hooked" on it lol

buoyant rain
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Since this conversation started, I decided to start playing with loot generation. Identically trained characters hunting in the same places this month, running major loot boosts nearly 100% of the time:

Acct 1, lowbie char: 632k
Acct 2, lowbie char: 1.7m
A capped character (acct 3) farming a different lowbie hunting area:
75k every 15 mins
The outcome of this shoddy experiment has been utterly baffling, and my suggestion would be to:

  1. identify and resolve whatever loot generation oddity can causes the massive discrepancy above
  2. significantly dial down the loot that can be generated from farming under-leveled critters

Thanks!

ripe juniper
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Yeah more than 10 levels below you should generate no loot like it generates no experience. When group hunts are done with lower level characters have the low level characters do the searching!

lethal hull
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my dive into treasure, loot and the system around it is that its an actual game fail point.

Its not well explained, its purposefully obtuse. Some people are generating 300k in 15 mins. Some people are generating 30k in 15 mins. Both are the same level. Some people know the secret hunting grounds that generate insane loot. Some folks have found ways to break the system forcing unique interventions like daily Confluence loot cap that is hidden and not explained anywhere in any documentation. Devaluation of ithzir crystal weapons and so on.

You level under the assumption the loot will get better and find out it only gets worse. Its just kind of a mess that we've accepted as a 'good enough' for decades.

buoyant rain
bright zenith
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I think ā€œaccept it as good enoughā€ is a bold interpretation of ā€œno power to effect any changeā€

bold lintel
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It might be cynical of me, but I'm sure there's a group of people who vocally have not wanted it to change either ... like the dozen capped characters raking in silver in a newbie hunting ground.

Edit: I've just remembered all the times early on I was stonewalled at requests to learn how to generate silver and the response was essentially, "Not telling you. But it's out there." So yup

lethal hull
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Fair. I'm certainly for all for any and all changes at this point. Its just not a fun system. Its not even particularly rewarding. Its just 'there'. I compare it to pressing a button on the pole at a crosswalk. Its supposed to speed up the red light so you can cross...but it probably isn't even connected to anything. Its just there to convince you that its happening.

And I'm sure there are plenty of folks who would like to keep their secondary market sales as solidified as they can, yes.

buoyant rain
lethal hull
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Its the feeling of being the person at the poker table who doesn't know who the sucker is....

lime hatch
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I agree with most of this but the idea that loot just gets worse as you level up is not something I've experienced...and I've leveled several characters to cap now. Sure there are pockets of areas where the loot is great along the way, but it is widely variable depending on where I was hunting...and I find that to be pretty much the exact same experience at cap: widely variable depending on where I hunt. The places I choose to hunt [at cap] today have loot that I consider to be from good to excellent depending on the day.

lethal hull
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Its a very strange design that because some people automate entire hunting grounds into oblivion other players should get less loot.

Why would a dynamic of Player A's gains are Player B's losses a good one?

lime hatch
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I don't think the people bigshotting Nelemar all day long are doing it for the treasure - they're doing it for the easy relatively safe exp. I assume the places I hunt at cap, which have good loot, are that way because they're more dangerous and have less people hunting there. That makes sense to me. Again I do think loot needs work I just think some of this is exaggerated based on certain scenarios instead of the big picture.

lethal hull
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The reason doesn't much matter though. If player A (whether solo or in a mob) can reduce the rewards of player B, that seems....I don't know...comical? I mean they literally reduced the pawnshop value of OTF crystal weapons because someone was using them to get over the line on loot cap. So every other hunter there lost a very little bit of extra treasure because of the behavior of a tiny sliver of the player base

violet fjord
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If they only lost a very little bit, what's the problem? I'm not clear on what the expectations of change are - normalizing silvers/hour? Silvers/month? Ultimately the biggest differentiator is hours played - a few hunts a week isn't going to ever be that meaningful

buoyant rain
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Little bits add up.

flint wharf
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Note: My perspective is definitely geared towards end game content (which also happens to be where 50%+ of the game population is anyways)...
as I think of other games with substantial end game content and where Gemstone Diverges:

Other Games

  • End game "gains" and Better gear is almost always found in gameplay (hunting, fighting, raids etc.. whatever the "game playmode" is). Hunting tougher areas enables character progression through finds.
  • Development of additional End Game content, is where the revenue streams continue. Not typically through items/gear. Yes, some does, but usually it's through purchase of expansions.

Gemstone

  • Core revenue comes from subs.
  • Growth Revenue comes development of new gear, sold at events.
  • The loot system is just grinding silver to improve your own equipment (through services), but will never get you the "best" because that's where GS's incremental revenue comes from

Doubling down on that last bullet with the move to Giftboxes/Event Boxes being account bound

lethal hull
# violet fjord If they only lost a very little bit, what's the problem? I'm not clear on what t...

You can surely see why a player with limited play time is a bit dubious about having other players, some of whom have characters who literally never log off having their minimal rewards made less by the behavior of others?

I think the requests are manifold. The system is boring, isn't fit for purpose, works on perverse incentives and frustrates alot of players. I don't expect all of that to be solved, but some of it certainly can/should be

buoyant rain
#

IMO - If hunting pressure isn't retooled, then GemStone Dev should strongly consider converting a swathe of critters up in levels. Take a bunch of the existing themed mobs and tune them to 90-105, idk. I know that is much easier said than done, so apologies for the overreach. But the notion of capped Shans, capped Orcswold...woof. It would sustain our existing geography for so much longer. blobhearts

violet fjord
#

Yes, I agree that loot pressure is not a great feeling system - I think itā€™s been suggested a few times to make it personal, which makes sense to me. What Iā€™m not clear on is the actual impact of loot pressure. Average silvers per hour is decreased by 10%? 40%? With either of those being erased, that still doesnā€™t equate to a huge change at the end of the month for a casual player. So thatā€™s why I was asking what the goal is. Simply raising the bottom line for silver generation doesnā€™t seem likely.

Just for perspective I donā€™t silver hunt, I think Iā€™ve maybe soft capped once. Any treasure I get is incidental as part of my main goal - EXP

flint wharf
#

I do agree with everyone that loot pressure on areas seems ridiculous since there are account caps now anyways.
Clearly loot pressure was built before caps were a thing. It seems like an antiquated system that probably needs updated.

lethal hull
#

My video fucosed on the premise that I've given up getting amounts of silver of any consequence. So I was requesting that more interesting treasure be in the loot system on a far, far, far more regular basis. Other people's mileage may vary

Loot pressure is also built on a good faith premise that there will be significant oversight of AFK hunting. I am not participating in the belief that 24/7 logged in characters have players at the keyboard. I've run into more than a few obvious examples of AFK hunting in the last few months. Its not well monitered and never really will be.

So, I'd respectfully ask that this behavior not impact my gameplay rewards.

lime hatch
#

Personally if my loot became crap at cap...I would go hunt somewhere else. If you choose to keep hunting in places with crappy loot, is that the system being broken or you not being willing to change? If you're fresh cap then of course your options are more limited...but it's a great example of: progress your character, be able to hunt harder enemies, get better loot.

Also it's very hard to compare GS to loot in WoW, for example, where the loot comes from hard group content that takes coordination, effort, skill, and learning - more and more the further you progress in search of ever-better loot. GS has nothing like that from a content standpoint, let alone a loot standpoint.

Furthermore, the gear and itemization in GS is vastly more complicated and complex than in WoW where everyone is seeking pretty much the exact same gear, with some minor differences based on off-meta skill specializations.

jaunty gate
#

Scrap loot pressure altogether, slightly exaggerate (beyond the current status) the treasure generation by level to incentivize people toward ascension areas (right now loot pressure adds to the incentive, I feel). I also like the ideas of personal loot pressure to get folks moving around the world, but I appreciate that may not be everyone's cup of tea.

lime hatch
lethal hull
#

I would love to see some design philosophy discussed.

-we would expect players to find x uncommons, y rares and z very rares annually for R number of boxes found.

Something like that. We know median silver intake is 1.1m monthly. I wonder what the median box count is

merry pecan
#

I wouldn't expect us to dig into this fully until we've cleared out a couple of other projects. I do think it's something that requires more than a cursory glance just given the scope of ideas we have ahead of us.

hot quarry
#

How about when you cap you can take voyage to uncharted wilds which is basically just a copy of the current elanthia (no cities) and the monsters are all min lvl 100.... giant rats with 500 AS and mstrike, disirs up to lvl 150. It would be like new game plus.

unkempt chasm
#

In a vacuum, I probably wouldn't even want treasure improvements to be in top 30ish priorities, but I guess they're not in a vacuum since things like gemstones and the enhancive reroller are impacted by the loot system. šŸ¤” (To the point about the scope of ideas GMs have ahead of them.)

lethal hull
#

When folks have a lot of a thing, it doesnā€™t seem quite as important as it does to folks who dont have much of something. I wouldnt prioritize an overhaul to the system at this point, if at all. But i think a number of the ā€˜insert these in the game nowā€™ suggestions are actionable

runic steeple
unkempt chasm
#

I still don't see how you get away from the situation of not having much of something without an overhaul--or at least what I'd consider an overhaul. Doing away with loot pressure, revising drop rates, adding new feeder subsystems, adding entire new categories of loot, and almost every other suggestion that's been said here would consitute an overhaul to me.

(And some of the suggestions wouldn't even do anything about the haves vs. have-nots situation unless the implementations were also independent of loot pressure.)

All that said, if it's a high-ish-but-not-top priority for dev, that's great. Throughout all the discussion, though, I don't think we've solved the low end problem. (If it can be called that.)

Edit: IIRC (can't check at the moment) I went through ~1400 boxes during the feeder frenzy, almost all of which came from the Hinterwilds (a tiny portion from the Hive), and found two feeder items. My understanding is that rates were cranked up to ten times their usual, so ordinarily I would have needed to go through 14,000 boxes to get anything interesting that isn't silver-related.

Now, personally, I do still find silver interesting, but I realize that's not the case for a lot of people it's also about to get less interesting with event boxes going account-bound (but then more interesting again with gemstones), so we're really swimming upstream here.

lethal hull
#

Haves vs have nots is never going to be solved. I think what can be solved is the feeling that loot is pointless considering that gap is not bridgable.

They set the rates of feeder frenzy. If 10x was a miss. They should try 100x. They can add rare fodder items to loot tables. They can add rare drops to critters. These things dont need a system overhaul.

unkempt chasm
#

I'm probably not being clear enough, especially considering my previous stances, so being concise...

After what Auchand just said, I think I'm now on the side of "overhaul it since, if you're going to do something, do it right." I can't think of many instances where band-aid solutions didn't spur on more problems.

lethal hull
#

Gemstone is a game built on never ending layers of bandaids. The loot system itself is filled with them. The reason that happens is because projects of that scope very rarely happen

So if the only way forward is, ā€˜system overhaulā€™, then there wont be a way forward. They staff doesnt want us having more loot, especially those of us who are already at the bottom. Thats been stated. So there isnt really any incentive to uncork a ā€˜fixedā€™ problem

ripe juniper
#

Maybe we should just go to a basic income system. Everyone gets 10m a month and there's no loot generated you can sell!

unkempt chasm
# lethal hull Gemstone is a game built on never ending layers of bandaids. The loot system its...

So sidegrades to add (basically) non-loot to the treasure system?

It could work... Though, depending on the implementation, it might just shift the needed "overhaul" to the mindset level instead of the coding level. I know a lot of players, myself included, consider it absurd that rare fluff is as rare as it is, but it's been a pretty consistent stance from staff that some players value rare things precisely because of their rarity.

So I wouldn't expect any of the top end stuff to show up in the treasure system--at least not without a really extensive debate behind the scenes first. I could imagine lower end things showing up like prize pile type items, though. Maybe it's a start.

lethal hull
#

I don't like to point to my video and say, its in the video. But, yeah, basically I was pretty clear that 1) Staff ain't letting more silver into the system and 2) we need things that are interesting and valuable between players in their own circles but don't have any pawnshop sale value

hot quarry
floral storm
unkempt swallow
merry pecan
loud zephyr
#

That would be a lot of empty space. There an upsidedown landing though wasnā€™t there?

willow plaza
unkempt chasm
#

I assume that one day Lich's Landing will be brought back as a fully-realized, real post-cap hunting ground. When that day comes, you can thank Mayor Leafiara and Magister Raelee for pushing to negotiate with Barnom Slim by giving him back Lich's Landing (Leafi's agreement) and Vlashandra (Raelee's agreement) in exchange for not attacking us (Leafi's agreement) and providing some answers about shady figures like Octaven (Raelee's agreement). šŸ˜„

loud zephyr
#

Stuff some demogorgans and demobats in there. Give us some sort of hut on wheels to stand on while we play a lute for Eddieā€™s Hymm buff. New hunting area is ready.

merry pecan
normal bloom
#

The dark Hyrule/bizaro world sounds really cool. Definitely needs to be dark and demony šŸ˜†

floral storm
buoyant rain
#

I would like more ascension point awards. Using the collectible system, one could find a series of facets that must be reassembled to receive the gift of higher learning (some quantity of ascension points directly awarded). The collectibles could be distributed through the treasure system, or perhaps some other questy means, like Real Gems of yore, and then deposited back into the collectible system for redemption there.šŸ”†
https://gswiki.play.net/Ascension_Skill_System
https://gswiki.play.net/Collectible

On second thought, this might be another way of saying that the collectible system achievements should award more than one instant mind clear!

runic steeple
#

The whole collectible system....I'm sure somewhere on paper that seemed like a good idea.

lime hatch
#

I still think, if expanded and refined, it could be a great thing. Better rewards, more transparency, a chance to drop in all boxes, etc.

unkempt swallow
lethal hull
#

You mean you aren't excited to earn an iron wand?

trail cloak
#

If they just gave out an instant mind clearer for every collectible set you turn it, it would fix the entire system and not require a major overhaul

willow plaza
# runic steeple The whole collectible system....I'm sure somewhere on paper that seemed like a g...

The achievements of the collectable system hurts my brain. It will never be completed. 10k (or even 1k) ultra rare collectables.... come on. Whoever came up with those is a sadist and akin to one of those people who cut a square out of a middle of a new cake or eat a KitKat whole. šŸ˜„ Edit: I'm actually willing to bet that there haven't been 10k ultra rare collectables generated globally since the inception of the system.

lime hatch
#

that would be great but it has much more potential - should have high-end rewards in there that are very rare so it's very exciting when you find those rare collectibles - which also means you need to be able to easily see that info when you find the item - I'd get rid of the COLLECT EXAM thing and just put it in appraise: show the full set, how many pieces you have/are missing, the rarity of each collectible in the set, what the reward is, etc. so as soon as you find it you know what you've got.

lethal hull
#

I mean....for some folks? Not everyone views Xp as a reward really. This is one of those things where the answer always seems to be 'throw an exp orb at it' and call it problem solved. I won't say 'dont do it', but I think thats a long way from saying the system is fixed. But I'm all for bandaids of improvement.

trail cloak
flint wharf
#

Or just keep the system as it is, just make the rewards more impactful. No need to create something new or take it away.
Edit - Just reading back up and realizing that's exactly what Tsalnix said.

lethal hull
#

I would be 0.000% surprised to find that coding anything new into the collectible system may be harder than just making a new system. Pretty much everything in Gemstone that exists is usually a pain to update impactfully. Bandaids may be the only option

trail cloak
#

Hah, probably right. Also you need a GM to sign up to champion the changes. Which may not be that easy to find

lime hatch
#

How it is now:

You analyze your blue cotton swathe and sense that the item is free from merchant alteration restrictions.

You get no sense of whether or not the swathe may be further lightened.```
them: think on help what do I do with a blue cotton swathe?
me: try COLLECT EXAM
them: hmm ok? what's a collectible?
```>collect exam swathe
You determine that the blue cotton swathe is a common collectible.```
How I envision it, improving accessibility and transparency:
```>anal my swathe
You analyze your blue cotton swathe and sense that this is a common collectible item from the Rainbow Garments collection!

Your items from the Rainbow Garments set (#20) stored at the collectibles shop:
  [38]   a blue cotton swathe                       (1/2) (common) (monsterbold this line)
  [39]   a yellow cotton swathe                     (3/2) (common)
  [40]   a red cotton swathe                        (1/2) (uncommon)
  [41]   a black cotton swathe                      (0/2) (rare)

Deposit this item at the collectibles shop in any town to add it to your set!

Complete this set and REDEEM it at the collectibles shop to earn a glowing multicolored swathe (unlocks existing RainboWear scripts to T4).

You may be able to learn more by using the COLLECTION verb.```
#

on another note:

[You have earned 250 experience points.]```
I had 950 exp in my head and this brought me to 1000/1000...so I only actually earned 50 exp. Can this please be changed to allow saturated or give a warning before redeem?
I did it again while at 1000/1000 and it said I earned 250 exp again but I actually got nothing. There was no instant absorb either. Womp womp.
unkempt chasm
#

Iā€™d just bump collectible drop rate to a hundred times what it is and call it a day.

unkempt swallow
unkempt swallow
merry pecan
#

I have challenges with the collectibles system.

unkempt chasm
merry pecan
#

I'd be willing to update it, but a surprising number of people have engaged with it.

trail cloak
#

People engage with the collectible system in part because they donā€™t realize how realize how bad the rewards are and in part because itā€™s sort of an inventory management thing (same number of commands as just throwing the item down the well)

fair loom
unkempt chasm
#

I like the rewards other than the free NPC locksmith one and the wands. They're fine as incidental bonuses for just doing what you already do.

fair loom
#

Like a lot of loot system issues. I note a significant increase in collectible loot when I kill non-capped creatures. Invasion creatures (at least the ones I spent time killing) significantly below my level couldn't stop throwing collectibles at me.

That said, while it does make loot a little more interesting; it's nothing that I get overly excited about otherwise. It's more of an achievement based objective than a reward based one for me.

floral storm
#

Yeah I always turn in collectibles as well. Itā€™s just that the rewards arenā€™t that great for the effort of figuring out what I can redeem outside of the instant absorb boost

I definitely like the concept. Just needs much better rewards

rare tiger
#

And a much better drop rate, at least at cap and in places where there aren't boon mobs

lime hatch
#

I'd just give them a % drop rate in all boxes, while maintaining the current drop rate (higher) from booned creatures. Although some might call that a nerf to disks (lol) as it will take more space...but I don't think the drop rate would be high enough that you'd be seeing all that many.

loud zephyr
#

For me all the low end enhancives are a loss to the treasure system. The vast majority get tossed other than assembling some temp sets for services. A modified system of minecraft enchanting could make player interest in enhancives go up and increase the player trading market for them.

Simply +1 Strength combined with a +1 Strength = +2 strength. +2 Strength combined with a +2 Strength = +3 strength. Low end goes quickly, but getting up there would get silly expensive. I don't see it as competition for the super HESS combiner certs. From a SIMU side. Could see increased silver usage for recharges and additional simucoins for potions.

Lots of different ways to skin the math on it, but we've got lots of items dropping that are just getting vendored without interest. Maybe a way to make loot more interesting while waiting for whatever comes down the pipe.

lime hatch
#

perhaps the enhancive reroller system coming RSN could also have an enhancive combining option, with greatly escalating prices as you look to combine for larger totals

willow plaza
# loud zephyr For me all the low end enhancives are a loss to the treasure system. The vast m...

I agree. I really think that modifiers with more flexibility are going to be a big solution for the treasure system. Whether that be the re-roller, or adding in additional functions to Sylinar for when swapping is available. Giving folks something to do with all those low-end enhancive that can help them work towards useful items would be great. I do like the idea of stacking... even if it's something like a 10 for 1 investment on like enhancive that destroys the expended enhancive. Like you have to consume a total of +10 of a given enhancive stat/skill to apply +1 of that same skill to the item you're working on. I dunno... just something.

lethal hull
unkempt chasm
#

And since we're talking about stats, it's not even by +1 bonus, but +1 base.

lethal hull
#

Yup. Literally crazytowns pricing. 40m-ish silver for +1 base stat. No idea who buys these, but its not the typical player. A solid 36 months of median silver earnings.

image.png
fair loom
#

There is the playerbase. And then there are the players that throw $10k notes at the game because they can. A lot of the event pricing is geared toward the second population for sure.

lethal hull
#

The problem with doing that is you have now priced out that as a thing you can every offer the average player in terms of regular rewards.

There can never be a way to add +1 to an enhancive that isn't around 35-40m now becuase someone picked 50k bs as the number to charge for it.

willow plaza
# lethal hull The problem with doing that is you have now priced out that as a thing you can e...

I would agree for the most part, but there can be some sort of middle ground. Think how much folks forked out to finish those bags of holding early on, just to have a huge part of their advantage replaced by the "-inator" line of items that were super reasonably priced. Just because somone paid a lot for something once doesn't always make it "hands off" for future innovations. Just for example, maybe "new +1 bonus" thingy could have a max of +10, and bump up the DR one to +20 (just spitballing the idea).

lethal hull
#

Im not against it. But ive seen dozens of examples where once something has a price, so ever shall it be

lime hatch
#

you could certainly offer to combine a +1 base enhancive with another to achieve +2 base for a reasonable price - a low price even - given that there's probably very little demand for that. It would have to scale based on the final +amount achieved. That slip from HESS works on anything so it's priced to be able to take a +10 enhancive to +11, for example...but doesn't preclude "lesser" options being available for lower prices imo

flint wharf
#

i do think having a reasonable way to build enhancive sets without allowing them to become overly powerful would be great... make paladin service something that allows things with existing enhancives to be further "enhanced" by infusing their gods will into it or something, +1 per tier up to +5 with a T5..... Could make the lower enhancive items that are found more valuable (looping back to treasure system with that).

Then still allow a HESS cert of some kind to allow them double that ability for 50k or 100k cert or something

lime hatch
#

HESS goes up to +20 so you could have a silvers system to build enhancives up to like +5 or maybe even +6 or +7 without making much of an impact at all on HESS sales of that enhancive +1 cert imo.

Build that in to the enhancive reroller system and you've got more silvers drain. Add some drops to the treasure system that give you some sort of deals/discounts/freebies at the enhancive reroller/combined and you've added interesting loot, improved enhancives at the low end, and maybe even incentivized more use of the reroller/combiner system (get 'em hooked with the freebies and drain that silver).

latent fossil
split osprey
#

should keep the random reroll in the same area of enhancement. like EG, dont reroll a FA to make it Dex. keep things relative. FA to Climbing for example

cloud vigil
#

Thereā€™s no loot pressure at sea right? Like, less loot the closer to port you are?

merry pecan
#

There's no loot pressure when GS is shut down. šŸ˜›

hot quarry
merry pecan
#

1,000,000 redsteel marks.

#

Get to Spirit Beasting.

lethal hull
cloud vigil
#

Wasnā€™t kidding. Didnā€™t know if it was entirely OSA, or by region, or close to port. Thank you.

ashen yew
#

a lot of KST invasion creatures are marked with boons. I'm not exactly sure why but it leads to them having the extra boon loot chance when you search them, which is extremely likely to produce collectibles

unkempt chasm
#

The why is probably "so they're harder." šŸ˜‚

ashen yew
#

but I don't see them firing off dispel flares or resurrecting!

#

THANKFULLY

lethal hull
#

All invasion critters are 100% not subject to loot pressure at all

buoyant rain
#

Chasing invasions used to be a great way of making money!

lethal hull
#

I was both amused and annoyed at the invasion battlefield scavangers

fair loom
fair loom
lethal hull
#

Heh. Its the hoover vaccuum effect of ā€˜Biznizā€™ running around search every dead mob that made me laugh

placid vortex
# lethal hull All invasion critters are 100% not subject to loot pressure at all

Just wanted to debunk this one. All creatures in GS are subject to loot pressure. Each creature has a profile no matter what the description is, so if I make a swole kobold warchief on the kobold profile, the system still recognizes it as a kobold. The treasure system evaluates where it spawned though. Treasure is like a normal distribution chart where everything starts off in the middle and deviates left (over hunted/poor) or right (under hunted/rich). Invasions typically aren't more than 2 hours, so if a creature being used doesn't already have any sort of pressure on that profile, then it falls in the middle. Invasions just aren't long enough to really impact the loot pressure at the invasion itself, but it typically impacts the treasure on whatever creatures we used afterwards.

It's not just invasion creatures that get reused though, arch wights are a good example that are located in a few locations across the game. Roa'ters and centaurs are another one. But reusing doesn't benefit the player. Reskinning creatures is when you might think you're hunting something new, but you're actually hunting something pretty over hunted elsewhere. It can be pretty destructive to other areas of the game if left for long periods of time. Lower level creatures are typically bland and offer very little challenge as well. We do realize some people wouldn't mind ascension-versions of kobolds with no updates just to mow down everything, but it's not very good game design.

lethal hull
placid vortex
#

Mist Harbor has no real hunting, so that's the real culprit there. I'm not sure which profiles were used, but if they weren't capped profiles, that's probably the other culprit.

#

But Auchand and I have been discussing this pretty much every other night. Once some stuff is off our plates, I know we want to dive into it.

fossil vale
#

I know it must be tricky. Like, I hunt bandits a lot, and they are so poor it is ridiculous. Others may know why that is and discuss it at length, but it's sorta frustrating to hunt at level and get nowhere. They don't even drop chests, really.

placid vortex
#

Bandits are all one profile from level 0 to 100 and are likely hunted every pulse in the game.

#

I'd be surprised if a bandit ever recovered.

loud zephyr
#

I'm surprised they have money to even cloth themselves. I just imagine bandits respawning . . . running up to grab weapons off their freshly murdered corpses just to run straight in and die all over again.

ashen yew
#

The treasure system evaluates where it spawned though.

that's actually big news! and might help explain moonsedge treasure compared to other ascension hunting

fossil vale
#

They don't really seem worth doing then. Drat. They are pretty convenient. Any hope of splitting the bandit profiles into increments of 10 somehow, so each tier gets its own loot? With an ascension tier? This is mostly me really side eyeing the like level hunting grounds with spellstrip. I know other pures do it, but I sorta enjoy every ounce of defense and as a mutant build, it's low.

placid vortex
ashen yew
unkempt chasm
ashen yew
#

wyrom suggested that the invasion creatures in MH might have been extra rich because there is no hunting in MH

#

which implies that town locale is relevant, right

#

HW probably doesn't have any town locale (or rather its town locale only contains HW)

#

I AM PARSING EVERYTHING

placid vortex
#

It's using creature and area, a new creature that isn't used anywhere is still starting at neutral hunting. If creatures get a break, they move to under hunted over time. If they never get a break, they move to overhunted. There is no reset period, but if the game goes down for long periods of time beyond a crash, it will recover as long as everyone doesn't go right back to it. Duskruin gives a lot of high level creatures a break since I don't use capped creatures really at all. The automatons are greater constructs, but their spawn rate is low.

ashen yew
#

DR actually affecting the treasure drops of the critter profiles used in DR blows my mind šŸ¤Æ

#

finally a reason to avoid hunting gnoll rangers

placid vortex
#

It affects it adjacently by profile only. Duskruin is its own realm.

ashen yew
#

ahh

placid vortex
#

A lot of our older systems were developed by some math maniacs.

#

Like spellburst is pretty crazy.

fossil vale
#

Would it be outside the realm of reason to not so much limit the treasure pressure for everyone, but for each account to have their own treasure pressure? Or is that a bad idea? Like, if I personally only decide to hunt 10 hours total for the month on my account, then I personally get nice treasure pressure until after a certain cutoff time?

placid vortex
#

I think that would be extremely punishing to people who play more, loot cap is pretty forgiving on that front, as the majority never enter soft cap. But Auchand and I are going over it. I think GS hits a few bad areas in treasure design. For one, there aren't any upkeeps that help the in and out of silver, and silver is the main focus of loot. The game does a good job at keeping silver relevant on the low end though, so someone who makes only a million silver a month probably struggles with keeping much if they interact with most game systems. There was nothing ever done to keep silver wealth down over the years by normal means. I'm not talking about new things to buy. But it's hard going from 20 years how it is to introducing tedium that requires you to upkeep things you never had to upkeep. Silver in GS is typically 100% uptime on acquiring near gear, upgrades, etc. Where if you really go through other online games, in-game currency is usually the hardest way to get things, and everything is either a drop or irrelevant every update so you keep pushing for new stuff. GS also allows you to go from level 0 to 100 on basic gear, and we've leaned on exotic gear as a monetization structure. So that we don't disrupt everything entirely, coming up with new treasure design means we have to come up with a lot of new systems to keep things still moving positively and without serious consequences. Hopefully that all makes sense.

ashen yew
#

That is a pretty clear summary of the difficulties with treasure I think

#

After I got to that point in the analysis that is when I was like ā€œso thatā€™s why charms and enhancive rerollingā€

fossil vale
# placid vortex I think that would be extremely punishing to people who play more, loot cap is p...

You know far more about the systems and balances than I do, so I take your word here as gosphel. I do think that the lower end is sort of punishing and since most players linger there than the higher end of the loot cap, silvers should be more readily available for everyone else. If there must be a limiting mechanic at top, it should also allow for grace at the bottom rather than all that silver funneling to the top. This is not a ding to players that play more, just... if I hunt 5 to 10 hours, I don't even get what I SHOULD at the base because it's all gone.

ashen yew
#

I proposed gift of Tonis at one point to bonus loot drops for the first X amount every week but as I recall wyrom said that would produce way too much silver because so many players just donā€™t make that much silver right now

#

But my thought process was also to reduce the gap between high and low engagement

#

Resource points also do that for classes that have a service

placid vortex
#

Yeah, we don't want to produce tons more wealth unless there are tons more things to use your wealth on. Locksmith pool is something that has damaged silver in a major way because everyone interacts with boxes now. Sure, there were people who picked boxes all day at a table, and there were people who still found pickers, but the vast majority never bothered with boxes or used the NPC locksmiths, who we all know are thieves. Now all the silver is in game every single day. And it's the highest population of AFK scripting which is why your days are numbered if you interact with it in that manner.

brave turtle
#

Any time my boxes sit longer than usual I assume there was a crackdown at the pools, heh

ashen yew
#

Hearing that most players just left boxes on the ground is another mindblower

fossil vale
#

I have a 4-5 minute timer, so pardon that. It's sort of limiting the ability to reply well. I use a Major Loot Boost every time I hunt, and it does nothing discernable. I'm not very certain that a gift of the gods would help more. To Wyrom's point though, there was a recent festival that took lots of silvers to join the raffles or trove. There are more services being introduced that need silver, as far as I see.

lethal hull
#

It didnt feel great to pay for a $35 pass to access 100k raffle tickets. At eg.

normal bloom
#

I definitely left boxes on the ground or literally just threw them away. In the old days.

kind steeple
#

We just need a switch that removes all loot and rewards experience instead. I will give up all loot for instant absorb on kill. 1 exp per kill.
2 exp if premium account. šŸ™‚

snow violet
#

Absolutely left boxes on the ground back in the day, or played a picker. Granted, that was also when there were like 12 people competing for hill troll spawns in a single room and you were excited to find a star ruby, so. šŸ˜†

When I came back years later I started using the NPC locksmith

brave turtle
#

Yeah pre-pool used to be ;townsmith was part of your post hunt routine (did sloot also have an option for it? I think it did), or you'd just leave boxes, unless you really enjoyed advertising on the amunet for 30 minutes trying to find a locksmith, and doing that regularly. I would just 125 all my boxes

lethal hull
#

Its also hard to really sympathize with the problems of too much loot when everything in the game is priced at the upper 5%

In a world of 1.1m median earnings, asking people to drop 60 months of earnings to get a carrack seems out of order

normal bloom
#

There are always going to be have and have nots. Nothing you can do about it if you hunt 1 hour a day versus someone that does 8+ hours a day.

fossil vale
#

The raffle thing was a cool idea, but yeah. 100k was a lot. I spent 5 mil, which was pretty much my bank balance, to enter the raffles, won nothing, and now trying to hunt it back up is grueling. To me, it's not so much the haves and have nots, as the "haves" as stated, are also taking everyone else's share of the pie. It literally shouldn't matter when asking for 5-10 hours of grace, and doesn't effect the people near loot cap, because they will keep hunting.

low ivy
#

I wonder if it'd be worth considering tying a portion of loot to a given character's active Lumnis schedule/effects.

lethal hull
ashen yew
#

I mean there are ways to limit that gap. Most massively multiplayer games explicitly limit the gap between the 1 hour players and the 8 hour players with a variety of approaches. The resource point cap and the loot cap both do that

normal bloom
#

You also have to give kudos to people that have literally spent years in the game learning how to make the silvers. You canā€™t just ignore that. If youā€™ve been playing 6 months versus 20 years, there absolutely should be some disparity. Plus it also gives you something to shoot for.

ashen yew
#

Well theyā€™ll be comforted by the huge pile of silvers they already have haha

fossil vale
# ashen yew I mean there are ways to limit that gap. Most massively multiplayer games explic...

They do, but they are on place to limit the silvers those accounts can get. I'm curious what will be done to address the characters, which are the majority of the game, that have far less. It's only part of the solution. Also, in MMOs, there IS a boost given to players that hunt casually, but they allow people to gather as much as they want. (In reply to Tikba)

Most of us do not have time to hunt for 5+ hours a day. While the accomplishment of knowing where all the good spots are is great, that is still a higher end of the cash pool thing. That is more niche. Most players do not interact with the game this way, if the silver distribution is accurate. Nothing will be taken from those players to balance things. (To Elysyan)

lethal hull
# normal bloom You also have to give kudos to people that have literally spent years in the gam...

Shoot for over what period of time? 300 months for a frigate?

Lets get to the numbers.
If you want a 100m silver, thats a 90 month investment of time. Thats $1,350 in basic sub fees. Thats another $2,250 in premium fees (if you want).
This isnt the ā€˜sometimes i log inā€™ player. This the median earner.

We arent really going to pretend that folks with tons of silver cant buy anything they want already are we?

unkempt chasm
#

The problem with the Lumnis-for-loot idea or similar has been stated:
#1049529762407792761 message

[...]

The days before loot cap were not manageable.  It was a losing battle when trying to plan out high end offerings with silvers.

[...]

Personally, and I know this will be extremely unpopular, I think 30mil is too high of a cap.  We have the raw data on every single account's silver generation and really, anything over 10mil is just a small group of players.  Obviously lower the cap to that extreme would upset quite a few people off, though most people aren't impacted.

[...]

We don't want to make silver generation easier though for the bottom 95%, that is even more counterproductive than introducing a cap.  If everyone is earning 10mil a month, we're worse off at 20bil to 30bil silver a month.  I realize that's not realistic, but loot boosts that made making millions easier a week would not be a good solution for the game.```
Edit: I usually have the above on hand because I've been a Lumnis-for-loot proponent before myself, heh. #892754010925305876 message
fossil vale
#

Well. There is the answer, I guess. I don't agree with it, and it's not great, but it's been addressed. Thanks, Leafiara, you're always very organized.

lethal hull
#

Im ready to hear the good solutions for the game. Right now, the folks who hit loot cap every month have many many multiples of wealth than the median player.

That doesnt matter, except that the staff price many desirable things at the loot cap player price point.

So, until i hear some ways to square that circle for the median player, Im not going to buy the issue as intractable. Its the result of staff design and staff pricing. If the answer is, we are okay with most of the game not really ever owning stuff over X silver value, then say that.

normal bloom
#

Someone who has played for years should be able to figure out how to get a frigate if they wanted it badly enough Iā€™m sure. You canā€™t have a 100% balance which the loot cap proves. You have a small number of players who dedicate their entire gameplay to making silver. You canā€™t stop that.

unkempt chasm
#

Personally, it seems implicit to me that staff is okay with most players not owning high-end silver things by virtue of the fact that they keep releasing high-end silver things.

Edit: This does get back into the "things are valuable because they're rare" angle a bit too (which I actually don't agree with, but nonetheless it's consistent messaging).

lethal hull
#

Id love to hear the way for a median player to get 300m silver that doesnt involve cash and a different website not called play.net. Or even 100m silver. If its something you just ā€˜need to figure outā€™, im ready to take notes.

And if that is what staff thinks, Leafi, Id like to hear staff say that.

fossil vale
#

I mostly see it as intractable, because it feels like talking at a brick wall. The focus isn't on the median player, it's managing the players with more resources. I do wonder if the median player's position is as intended, or there is consideration that it might not be.

As far as stopping higher earning players from earning, that does in fact seem to be some of the focus of recent changes. I simply think that in focusing on one, the other is neglected. If it were not the situation, the attention could be spread over the entire playerbase rather than just at the top.

modest reef
#

No one should stop people from amassing silver, if that's the way they want to play the game. It's valid too, and players who do that should see rewards for it. It's more the degree of disparity and the dispiriting possibility that, as Ptolemy said, the game may just be designed for most people not having high-value stuff that makes loot a point of pain. In other words, there's broad consensus among staff and players that being rich should mean something; should it mean everything, though?

lethal hull
#

People will only participate in a hamster wheel for so long. When they realize they are never getting the treat, theyā€™ll walk away. The treasure system itself contains no treats, so all you can do is grab the silver. When its obvious you arent going to be able to buy much with your earnings, why keep trying?

unkempt chasm
#

I'll agree that messaging could be more clear. In mechanics discussions, we get very concise, specific statements like "I think the pretty clear throughline is that the bleeding edge of Ascension content is best with friends." or "10-20 people getting +10 AS doesn't affect overall game balance. We don't balance around Roblar." In game economy discussions, maybe not so much.

Edit because of ultra long timer: I agree Wyrom's comments are great. Still, I'd lump them in the concise category, but maybe not the specific category--I actually liked his past comments more in that regard, like the ones we always bring up about median incomes. šŸ˜„

Edit 2: I guess what I'm getting at is more that we're often a lot more productive in mechanics discussions (or, at least, I'd say so) because we have a better picture of what the end goal looks like, so we can more accurately pinpoint how the mark is being missed. I don't particularly have an idea what the GS economy endgame looks like.

Edit 3: To be absolutely clear, Wyrom's comments give me the impression that staff knows what the GS economy endgame looks like. That doesn't mean I can give any advice myself, though. Some Cheshire Cat from Alice in Wonderland stuff going on here! šŸ˜›

ashen yew
#

I thought wyromā€™s comments today were a pretty good start! He says they have thought about the problem with silver, he correctly analyses the problem, and he says they are thinking about fixing loot

short marten
#

Agreed. I am curious what comes of the ongoing discussions.

modest reef
#

I think there are still treats; I'm not sure we sometimes recognize them as such. At the risk of sounding a little Pollyannaish, some of the stuff we can buy off the rack or improve to full unlocks with a few certificates would without a doubt have been god auction quality stuff in the past. Basketifiers, Dreamfire bracelets, Shadowplay gowns come to mind. It's worth noting that all of this is fluff, though -- for the major mechanics advantages, you have to shell out big.

Not that this should preclude a treasure improvement review! Just applying some perspective on my own position among the "have" and "have not" spectrum.

fossil vale
#

Yeah. I want to be positive about it, and give him and Auchand a chance. I've fussed about it enough the past three or four years and now I'm just sorta meh about it. I've considered buying silvers, which is something I really wouldn't have considered that much of an option in the past. I'd rather not, so if they say they're gonna do something, I'm willing to wait.

lethal hull
placid vortex
#

Median silver values are also a bit of a misrepresentation of silver generation. Anyone can make silver. The median counts anyone who engages in the game, even alts and bots. We have a significant number of players who don't hunt much. People who do hunt a lot and interact with treasure systems monthly should be rewarded for it. But that 1.1mil (it's actually sub 1mil right now) are people who spend their time doing a lot of other things. Also, keep in mind, the average online time is about 90 minutes (I don't have the median here, so it's counting hundreds of people who don't log out much at all). If you play for more than 90 minutes a day, you're not the average user. The number excludes anyone logging in for rewards (another failed design).

fossil vale
# placid vortex Median silver values are also a bit of a misrepresentation of silver generation....

That.. really encourages not participating in the silver system at all for the vast majority, then. Which also limits our buying power, not just for special things, but basic things like clothing and alters unless the room gets a generous donor. Sorta means that if we have more silvers troves, it cuts the lower earning player right out again, and it's pretty much the same as it was before. This would be mitigated if there wasn't a hue and cry when roleplaying incentives are released because everyone can't get them equally. That all goes out the window, and seems to be okay when it comes to silvers and high end goods though. Rarity should be a thing in both cases, and there should be other distribution methods than wealth if most players don't interact with the treasure system at all. And why would we? It's not very rewarding. Still, I'll just wait and see what you guys come up with.

I AM kind of curious about players that clock in more time than the average user, and that wealth breakdown. What does the above average user actually spend time on?

Thank you for the responses!

unkempt chasm
#

I like login rewards, personally... Don't use most of them, to be fair, but the ones I do use are awesome. I wouldn't call them a failed design!

Edit: Actually, wait, I do use most of them. I use major loot boosts, enhancive boosts, bounty boosts, urchin runners, encumbrance boosts, guild boosts (converted to bounty boosts), mind clearers, death sting reducers, realm boosts, Gift of the Gods, and doubled exp boosts, but don't use magic crystals, minor loot boosts, urchin guides, bounty waivers, superchargers, or luck boosters.

placid vortex
#

The login reward system fails because it doesn't encourage engagement with the game. So our numbers show 20,000 to 30,000 logins a day, but we have to measure it two ways to have true numbers.

placid vortex
unkempt chasm
#

Ahhh. I had figured login rewards were just supposed to encourage keeping subscriptions active or something, heh.

cloud vigil
fossil vale
# placid vortex I think you might be reading it backwards, or maybe I have a typo that I didn't ...

Pardon, I might not have understood. Sorry for my confusion.

-What I gleaned from the statement was that the vast majority of players don't try to, or fail at attaining a lot of wealth.
-This makes me think that that majority doesn't engage with the treasure system - the players that do, then glean the rewards for such.
-My thought then was, that most of us, for whatever reason, don't, and maybe shouldn't get those sorts of rewards, and since it is a system that favors that niche of playing, it's not worth engaging in unless we want to - most of us do not.
-This does leaves the fact that the people who do not with fewer resources to buy simple things in game, let alone high end things.
-You also mentioned, if I am reading right, that plus 90 minutes is an above average time user. This led me to wonder of THOSE users (I happen to be one) the wealth distribution. Also, I was curious to know what these characters DO seem to do with their time.
-This then lead me to the thought process of, if the user spends more time in roleplay, they should get roleplay awards. This was balanced with my past knowledge that handing out these rewards is a headache and challenge, because everyone thinks that they should be able to have roleplay incentive rewards, even IF they do not interact with this aspect of the game much.
-Thus, it was a goose and gander thing. If Silver investment is sacred, thus too should nice things be able to be distributed for other investments of time. This is difficult because of past player arguments to the contrary. This HAS gotten a bit better in recent times, but if a GM were to fly down today and hand a bunch of players RP fluff items like forehead gems, there would be upset.

  • All of this just makes me less than hopeful, but I am willing to wait and have faith.

Again, sorry. I sometimes think in wandering pathways, and if I'm asked to explain my mental journey, it's easier to follow for some.

fiery monolith
loud zephyr
# 
Login Bridges Earned:           146
Minimum Days before use:        3
Maximum to use at once:         2

Given it's a resource. Would be nice if we could just miss some and not have to use some weird currency.

latent fossil
cloud vigil
#

Graduated income taxes for alt accounts and silvers backed by simucoins via event boxes...

fossil vale
# latent fossil Universal Basic Income for all!

Eh. I wouldn't say that, heh. Just, if I'm a mostly RP focused player, and that is what I do, then my asking for a sword of doom is silly. High end scripted fluff would be more appropriate as an incentive, but... drama. I would only want the sword of doom so that I could get more wealth for nice fluff, but even having that sword, if I do not... words. (throws up hands)

Yuki player want reward for Yuki player's investment. Yuki player ANGRY! Not hunt! Just TEA and FLUFF! SPENT HOURS DOING! (tongue in cheek, and meant to be humorous, I'm really running out of bandwidth, it seems.)

lethal hull
# fossil vale Pardon, I might not have understood. Sorry for my confusion. -What I gleaned fr...

This. As someone who was the target of an angry swell of people for having gotten an rp derived reward, there are no rewards allowed for RP. We have done better with this lately through some new ā€˜earnableā€™ titles. But you have to be in the right rp lane to even possibly qualify.

RP cant be rewarded, or so was made clear to us.

And lots of high end RP rewards are, again,, gated by silver/bs

gaunt ridge
#

Who made that clear? Staff or other players? Also this spicy 5 min CD.

lethal hull
#

I was told what happened to me wont happen again. In terms of rewards. I dont know if it was an official statement. But also no one told any angry players to stop behaving that way, this is within the lines and the game supports it. Silence is its own form of condemnation. Soā€¦ take that as you will.

fair loom
#

And it's the highest population of AFK scripting which is why your days are numbered if you interact with it in that manner.

The recent policies toward afk scripting seem to argue otherwise. Now it's barely a slap on the wrist for AFK scripting under the new policies.

fossil vale
# gaunt ridge Who made that clear? Staff or other players? Also this spicy 5 min CD.

Mmm. The most recent event that comes to mind was when a sword was dropped by a bad guy during QST. It was given to a player for safe keeping, and I just WINCED at my keyboard. My fretting wasn't proven wrong, because there was upset on the player side. Said player dropped that sword (or whatever it was) like a hot potato to save themselves the struggle. I was wondering if it was a test by the GM involved to see if we'd be able to handle it responsibly. And... no. Noooooo.

Then there was the complaints surrounding the first release of firewheel. How it was unfair it couldn't just be purchased. It was made clear that it WOULD be more readily available later, but good grief, it wasn't really pretty. This isn't really.. new behavior.

Now, if the GMs decide they want to offer these incentives more often, I'd like to see how it works out. The firewheel debate was mostly from players that wanted to buy it, and were mad it was given away.

gaunt ridge
#

Yeah I know that people have been awful about it and when it happens it should be directly called out, but the statement made it sound like it was almost an official stance so I wanted to clarify.

I know I'm much happier with "if the right circumstances fit" versus "never again."

latent fossil
fossil vale
tribal grotto
#

this is easy: I'm hunting a difficult, yet quiet and less popular hunting ground. I'm not afk scripting. I have friends with me. I'm presented with an unbottable option for loot. I win with an epic loot haul and I move on.

#

the loot, is beneficial to the members of my party, including myself. It could be fluff, like a gown or (god forbid) an epically scripted kilt. But I dont know it's beneficial because I need to pull it from my newly epic item and have it inspected in some way

#

it's also bound to me and my party (those present during the loot haul) it's a hodge podge of whimsical, role playing fluff and items that can help me in battle (especially for prime). Prime NEEDS a loot haul system to help the player who's engaged in end game content but is actually paying attention and not trying to keep their ooc mortgage in check. and will use the item for their own benefit

latent fossil
tribal grotto
#

for context: my character was created in 1997, so I'm not some new age conquer all persona. I play both prime and platinum. Prime is hindered by the general player who wants high end items and is not penalized for not spamming the most efficient means of loot acquirement for THEMSELVES. I just want to find something cool for myself (like most loot based games offer) without having to fund someone's personal agenda

kind steeple
#

If an item could be looted only by clicking the wrayth link (no idea if this is possible), you might get around scripting.

jaunty gate
#

Whatā€™s the solution for those of us who donā€™t use Wrayth? Besides, scripting isnā€™t against policy.

ripe juniper
#

And scripts can easily use the same system the point and click does. When you see _drag #7373738 #7383737 thatā€™s pretty much using the click system.

unkempt swallow
buoyant rain
blazing elbow
#

I think for the cost of the ticket, they should probably be lowered to 0

floral portal
#

The real problem is gemstone transitioned from being a mostly rpg game to a long term character progression game back around the move from gs3 to gsiv and once that happened they made it basically impossible to make meaningful progress without scripting to post cap/ascen goals. If they want it to be an rpg again just cap exp and long term progression past 100 and give it and end point. As long as itā€™s about long term character development and not role playing people will continue to afk script cause itā€™s the only way to make meaningful progression post cap. They need to get in touch with how the majority of players use their products in reality not how theyā€™d like them to be enjoyed. At some point they need to lean into gs as second monitor content not against it. There wonā€™t be any treasure fixes because that level gear and services is $ only which keeps the lights on. While Iā€™m sure you can cap with basic 4x gear thereā€™s not a ton of people that have tried it who think itā€™s fun.

willow plaza
# floral portal The real problem is gemstone transitioned from being a mostly rpg game to a long...

I disagree that this perspective represents the majority of players. However, I disagree with a caveat: it represents, I think, the majority of big spenders. If GS transitioned away from RP, I wouldn't play the game. There are already thousands of other options for stat-progression games out there if that's my fix, not a whole lot of options out there for character development that progresses over decades. I think the alt currency and high end services already pretty well cater to the money makers, and that's to keep the lights on. I'm not sure any treasure system adjustment is really going to impact them. It can however make the game more enjoyable for the majority.

ashen yew
#

I don't think it represents the majority of big spenders!

floral portal
#

They could have fixed the economy and treasure system and they made a business decision not too. Why would they reverse course now? in hindsight staff was pretty prophetic

willow plaza
# ashen yew I don't think it represents the majority of big spenders!

You maybe right. It may not be, but all I have to base that opinion on are the numbers from DR that get reported, which is a pretty skewed view admittedly, but all the high priced items lean pretty heavily into combat upgrades. With a lot of the mid-range items being non-combat oriented and more reasonably priced. I don't think that's a supply/demand issue, I think it's probably good marketing on Simu's part. They know where the big spenders dump their cash.

ashen yew
#

I think a lot of people buy combat upgrades. I think things like player housing also tend to go for exceptionally high prices. But I also don't think that most of the people who buy those high priced combat upgrades want policy changes to enshrine afk scripting.

floral portal
# ashen yew I don't think it represents the majority of big spenders!

lets run a game wide script check and see if you are right Tikba šŸ™‚ They won't because they know, I think GM brauden was pretty prophetic: Breakage ... was originally part of the more balanced design of the game, but lost when the breakage system was temporarily discontinued (a situation which lasted far longer than originally intended). This will be accomplished in a number of ways. Breakage will force the more realistic refreshing of combat-oriented items, as well as offer more complexity in hunting choices, throughout the game. Item degradation and catastrophic failure will result in a modest rate of item attrition, especially of items which are not properly maintained. Some attrition will be a result of players choosing not to use keepsake items or artifacts in combat, but save them for roleplaying purposes only. Item attrition will also come from the breakage mechanics themselves. This turnover of gear is sorely needed in order for us to be able to introduce new items into the game, counter hyperinflation, introduce new strategies and choices in hunting, and to make balanced hunting areas and creatures more widespread, especially at higher levels.

ashen yew
#

I assume they ARE running game wide script checks

floral portal
# ashen yew I assume they ARE running game wide script checks

It would only take 1 to get an accurate picture of how customers use their product. Gemstone is intended to be an RPG, understood but in reality the majority of players play it for long term character development these days not role playing, just like crypto has many legit uses, everyone knows in reality its the preferred currency for people buying, trading and doing shady stuff, do people still use crypto for legit applications, of course, but the majority don't same goes for the way consumers enjoy the product of gemstone. Anyone who's stopped for a body knows the majority of them are afk, just like the halloween activities they tried to do in each town, saw how many people were afk and decided it'd be a better tactic to increase script checks

loud zephyr
#

How about that treasure system? points up at the title of the thread

violet fjord
#

I'm curious where you're getting your metrics on "the majority of players". Edit: I like treasure

floral portal
#

Any fixes to treasure, cut into $ at paid events, I think there's ample evidence of this by how legendary the legendary drops have become, they started as like enchanted GEF claids and awesome super enhancive masks, then slowly morphed into legendary busker cases.....Any 'fixes' aren't going to improve anything generally speaking treasure wise, if it did they'd cut their own throats financially, you might see some tweaks but no major overhauls, any chance for that left with breakage, item attrition and perm item loss. That ship sailed long ago.

runic steeple
#

That an official post asking for brainstorming on fixes exists seems to indicate the ship may not have in fact sailed.

floral portal
willow plaza
#

Don't shoot me, but... well, I mean, could always follow the trend. New alt currency that only get's dropped via boxes, and a shop that sells desired items that can only be purchased with that currency. Basically: build your own loot. Everyone gets something they want. Then some of the "feeder" boxes could be "cache" finds of loot currency. Could even be non-transferable to mitigate building a tertiary market; call it "treasure hunter rep" or some such.

hot quarry
#

Seasonal currency/shop does sound fun, maybe with a 1 per account "must have" item every season and some other "stretch goal" things that would cater to the hyper farmers... could be scarcity done right.

willow plaza
#

This feels like it's oddly relevant to the collectables revamp discussion going on over in another thread. That feels like a progenitive concept that was never fully realized. (Edit: Oh, nevermind, that was this thread, just way ^ up there.)

runic steeple
latent fossil
#

The idea that everyone who plays baseball recreationally is also intending to take steroids to progress toward an MLB career -- elsewise they can't enjoy baseball -- isn't an argument I'd make. About baseball, or any other game.

But regarding the treasure(!) system I like @tribal grotto idea of loot pinatas. Tried and true enjoyment engine. Treasure goblins! :X

I think roleplay item generation would add a lot of flavor and access to the roleplay elements core to the games fun that wouldn't appreciably alter mechanical "advantage" to the playerbase.

fair loom
#

I've been told the game is fun and enjoyable with only 4x gear. I see plenty of 4x gear drop šŸ™‚ It's basically christmas every hunt.
It is definitely playable this way. I'm not sure of your source that said it is fun and enjoyable this way (though it does make for an interesting challenge). I'll accept that at least a few people have voiced this POV.

The fun in Gemstone IV (for me) IS long term character progression. That said, I don't feel any specific need or pressure to script it to get there faster. I do understand that some folks, possibly like yourself, do view scripting as a desirable way to achieve longer term goals within the game vs. actually playing it without the use of scripts.

cloud vigil
# floral portal lets run a game wide script check and see if you are right Tikba šŸ™‚ They won't ...

I think they could make some major progress if they released treasure that was character bound, amazingly awesome, but with a limited duration ala breakage. Give me a 7x blink katar with 1000 swings, that I find on a fanatic. Not game breaking. Awesome treasure. Super fun.

Everyone buckles at breakage. I hate the idea as it pertains to items I spend $1,000 in simucoins on. But, it should pertain to amazing new treasure items.

bright zenith
#

I like that idea, but wouldn't that devalue the incentive for players to invest $$ into gear progression?

floral storm
#

I don't think that's a bad idea at all. It should also have some easily recognizable description in the name to show it isn't permanent. Maybe a replication material that gradually fades out of existence. and having it with an easily identifiable description prevents people from selling it or scamming people.

it could have a few days of use then have a random set time where it could phase out of existence. It would probably be a good way to possibly hook someone on it after they get to experience it and may even lead to a possible sale later on.

willow plaza
fair loom
willow plaza
cloud vigil
floral portal
#

Iā€™m all for loot dropping dr booklets and vouchers.

#

The toughest part of the treasure system is since there is no maintenance or item@attrition you have this glut where nothing you can put in the treasure feeder is gonna feel good when the game is already so over saturated with gear.

brave turtle
#

Nothing will feel good to you, the hypothetical man who has everything. For the person making 1.1m/mo there's probably a lot of gear (if they go the mechanical route) that would be a huge upgrade

wheat cypress
floral portal
#

Nothing in the treasure feeder would be an upgrade over turning the silvers in to cash then to blood script. Gald vouchers that worked similarly to Sadie that way you can customize what you have, or smithy invites or discounts vouchers etc maybe would be cool too. The best thing the treasure system could change would be dropping extremely rare alter fodder like player skins urglaes etc at this point more customization and less pawn fodder would be great though I think enhancive drops will feel infinitely better when you can reroll them.

willow plaza
# floral portal Nothing in the treasure feeder would be an upgrade over turning the silvers in t...

I agree on removing unessisary tedium from the treasure system 100%. I can't find any good argument for chipped bricks, rusty doorknobs, smooth stones, etc. being a part of the reward system. If I were going to be tasked with improving the treasure system, that would literally be my very first move: get rid of the junk. Feels dumb to be reward with garbage. Replace those with something useful... maybe common/uncommon fodder, with a very small chance of getting a rare/very rare fodder.

wheat cypress
#

This feels weird saying this but even some of the junk clothing at this point isnt so bad with all the new customization shops...however i'd like to see them be "nicer" junk clothing items if that makes sense. Some stuff is so bad all the embroidery in the world cant fix it. But single use alteration books, alteration fodder, crafting fodder... just those three things alone would make opening boxes more fun if they dropped and dropped at a rate your average player had a chance at them.

unkempt chasm
#

I mean, they did literally introduce a junk cannon for chipped bricks and rusty doorknobs, among others. It could be a bit more exhaustive, but I still like that item!

floral portal
lethal hull
#

Just make all loot sell for 1 silver minimum

willow plaza
loud zephyr
violet fjord
#

There are GS robots already šŸ‘

floral portal
flint wharf
#

Love the idea of:
ā€œA replica ((material)) xyz weaponā€ That acts similar to feras. Hell, that could drum up more DR sales for them. Get us hooked with the trial and then sell us the transmute!
ā€œFully unlocked replica ithzir armor that lasts for one week real time.ā€ šŸ¤¤

cloud vigil
#

exactly and could help work out some bugs ā€” if we had some drops for new scripts coming out this DRā€¦ people would go bananas.

And, it doesnā€™t break the game, doesnā€™t reduce revenue stream, and gets people excited.

flint wharf
#

Regarding silver drains for the top end of loot earners - i wonder what the impact would be if they enabled Enhancive recharging at the Adventurer guild for silvers permanently.

I canā€™t seem to think of any wildly negative impacts from a move like that.

floral portal
hollow zephyr
#

Soooo, any progress onna da treasure boxes fulla ONE kinda thing? hehe.

lethal hull
#

Well...I don't know what's going on in mummies...
Jahck says, "Ah, here we are. The client is offering a tip of 2,102 silvers and mentioned it being from a lesser mummy (level 6). The trunk is set up on the counter for you. When you're finished, ASK me to CHECK your work."

But unless this person is tipping like 100%, this is wild. I've gotten like 10 of these boxes in the pool just now from mummies. This system is so broken

ashen yew
#

I used to do 20% tips and you would see tips like that all the time

flint wharf
#

I do wonder if they meant 100 silver and did percent instead

ashen yew
#

I did 20% tips from like 1-90 and my tips didn't really vary much with level haha

#

if a box has like 6k silver and two gems it's over 10k in value, that's kind of why I eventually stopped doing percentage tips

tender helm
trail cloak
#

Wyrom mentioned putting some high powered feras items in the feeder for the recent frenzy. Not sure if any went out

lethal hull
#

I would honestly be surprised if anyone ever used this high powered temp items. Folks are so built into the specific gear they have, people are likely to hit all sorts of training/level/class barriers to using random gear. Random upgrades that are temporary to gear are one thing, but I don't see actual pieces of gear ever catching on

trail cloak
#

One fun treasure thing would be to attune those super feras weapons and make them a bit more common in the treasure system. Would be a lot of fun to use but also rare enough that it would be sort of a special treat and not something you could consistently use, or purchase.

Or maybe piggybacking off of Ptolemyā€™s comment, how about an item that adds a temp mega flare to your weapon of choice (powerful like a feras flare, but temporary and degrading with use)?

lethal hull
#

I really don't think anyone is going to make serious use of a bunch of super feras weapons. It might be fun for a goof, but then you start to realize that people are losing enchant, weighting, scripts....and its hard to see who the user base is.

Besides, stuff like that really needs to be manually built and tossed into the system. We need things that can scale easily.

cloud vigil
#

Or simu needs to make a treasure guru, who makes fun, breakable items and gets them into rotation quicklyā€¦

willow plaza
cloud vigil
#

Ive been thinking, I know there has been a lot of discussion on enhancives in this forum, but I donā€™t think enhancives are the answer to treasure woes. I think it will exacerbate game problems in the long run. Iā€™m not a fan of them, and wish they hadnā€™t really been introduced. They undercut the value of ascension.

lethal hull
#

Oh man. Without enhancives combat wouldnt be fun for me. I need that agidex

hollow zephyr
#

*I really don't think anyone is going to make serious use of a bunch of super feras weapons. * Hi, I'm Dwi.

cloud vigil
lethal hull
violet fjord
#

Enhancives are great. I want more ways to add them to existing gear

cloud vigil
#

You have a very specific awesome playstyle that is bolstered by enhancives, so I get it.

But, as a whole, itā€™s just power creep.

Itā€™s like me saying, of course I want a 20x longbow (or +50 ranged enhancive set).

Enhancives exist. They help buff my character. I want them.

But, I donā€™t think theyā€™re good for the game. And I hope the treasure system doesnā€™t lean more into them to solve loot problems.

ashen yew
#

New Leff is all hot takes!

#

I would agree that enhancives have a dramatic and reverberating effect on the game but itā€™s not really clear to me that that effect is bad

#

I think enhancives are most interesting when they allow previously impossible shifts in play style (say, stamina recovery, or lores) and least interesting when they just make your attack number larger, I would agree with that

lethal hull
#

I cant with a straight face worry about enhancives and power creep when death flares on a weapon of your choice are sold for cash.

Enhancives are one of the few actual upgrades silver can get you

loud zephyr
#

Certainly doesn't solve loot problems. I think the ideas around collectible and enhancive drops was to take what is largely unused and give them some life. Spending years gathering and collecting to increasingly improve your set is a pretty natural progression.

cloud vigil
hollow zephyr
#

ook! only way I'd sell meself fer (less den a house) cash is...if'n I renamed meself anna allla my gear "Dingleballs Tinyballs"....anna I kint gits a merchant to turn my helmet into a REAL saucepan...soo....dat aint likely.

low ivy
#

I mean, you can. in shattered.

cloud vigil
ashen yew
#

unironically it was like that when I got here

lethal hull
flint wharf
unkempt chasm
#

Yesterday I found this pin in the Hinterwilds:

It is an enhancive item:
    It provides a boost of 5 to Edged Weapons Bonus.
    This enhancement may not be used by adventurers who have not trained 15 times.
    It provides a boost of 5 to Spiritual Lore - Blessings Bonus.
    This enhancement may not be used by adventurers who have not trained 25 times.
    It seems to have a lot of enhancive charges remaining.
It will persist after its last enhancive charge has been expended.```
It made me think...

In tens of thousands upon tens of thousands of arena packages since loresongs were added to Duskruin prizes, I've found maybe two enhancives I'd call even remotely comparable to this. And I've never found anything like +13 or +16 Picking Locks enhancives from the arena.

So it's made me wonder: maybe the way players conceptualize good loot and the way the system codifies good loot are more different than we know. I see people picking up boxes in the locksmith pool all day long and, thanks to the fossil charms, I can see certain people who get far, far more sheer silvers in their boxes on average than I do.

But what if silvers are only a small part of the picture from a system perspective? If someone finds four times the silver in boxes that I do and yet I find a hundred times better enhancives, then I'm winning... but it's a lot harder to compare quality of enhancives (or armor and weapons) in boxes than to compare silver in boxes because the former is less common.
ashen yew
#

Jesus how do you find these items hahaha

unkempt chasm
#

I think the message I'm getting from things I find is that the Hinterwilds loot is still amazing even though my boxes have like 800-2500 silvers while Sanctum boxes have more like 2000-9000 silvers. The Sanctum boxes are lacking quality enhancives (at least so far, for me).

And it makes me think about how people (myself included) will say that level 30-50 hunting grounds are rich... well, yes, they're silver-rich, but does anyone find awesome enhancives there? Open question since I don't know either way. And if they don't, what does that say about the inner workings of the loot system? (Even if they do, what does that say about the inner workings of the loot system? Are silver and enhancives correlated in some ways but distinct in others?)

lethal hull
#

I have noticed I ONLY find good enhancives in HW.

latent fossil
trail cloak
#

Enhancive quality is somehow tied to critter level. So higher level hunting grounds have a ceiling of better enhancive bonuses (although you can certainly still get low quality enhancives from the ascension areas)

night reef
latent fossil
night reef
flint wharf
#

I think what weā€™re going for is more like the 100k-500k Bloodscrip or 200m+ type items out there dropping as a time gated or limited use sample.
It feels Fundamentally different than temp VHCP/VHCW.

cloud vigil
# night reef Hasnā€™t temp weighting/padding on items been a similar experiment?

Yeah. But the temporary doesnā€™t exceed what I personally have on my mains, so itā€™s a tough sell.

I think they could consider scaling it, where nicer items could be found in harder areas. The nice part about the idea is that items could be, in theory, correlated with mob level.

A killer weapon for a level 20 character could be fundamentally different than a killer treasure weapon/armor in an ascension area.

But, imagine if 1x per day legendary weapon went out game wide, but it was character bound (or even not character bound), and decayed after 1,000 swings, or 30 days later, or something. And your odds of finding one go up, the longer it goes without you having found one. A 9x, GUB, animalistic katar with 15 CER weighting. Or an auction quality OSA ship summoning rod that expires after 10 uses. Or a tome thatā€™s limited to some certain number of scroll food. Thatā€™s something I would be ecstatic to find, even if only for a bit.

cobalt jetty
#

Sounds like a big waste of time TBH. People already don't use temporary things.

cloud vigil
#

I feel like you should type everything you want to post to discord into ChatGPT and ask it to ā€œmake it sound kinderā€ and then post that as your discord comments.

cobalt jetty
#

If you can't accept feedback of a differing opinion when you make a suggestion you should ask someone else to suggest things for you.

bright zenith
#

Thinking about this some more, a tweaked version of this concept would be an amazing way to debut new scripts/materials ahead of a pay event where theyā€™re projected to be released

cloud vigil
cobalt jetty
# cloud vigil Seems a bit defensive on your end ā€” wasnā€™t taking umbrage with your point, just...

Don't assume a tone? You could ask me what tone I'm going for if you're really that concerned.

Let's dive into the suggestion.

We need a new system to create these, legendary but totally not legendary weapons/armor. And then modify the loot/legendary system to drop 1x a day.

We also need to create a new temporary system, so that it goes away after X amount of reason.

Then we need to create a system that scales these legendary but not legendary items so that the higher the creature level, the better it is.

Then JimBob Sorcerer is going to find some full plate that crumbles at 100 hits.

There have been a lot of bad ideas in this thread, this isn't the only one.

cloud vigil
#

Sure, what tone are you going for? I assume, based on your body of work, and the comment above, condescending and belittling?

placid vortex
#

I wish I had more time to chat in here, but I've been pretty slammed. Lots I want to respond to but it's hard getting stuck in the weeds. Don't worry about each other's ideas, good, bad, ugly, doesn't matter. We read them all regardless. We've been talking about treasure for several months now behind the scenes. We don't want to get stuck with a huge update, so the goal is to push out changes in phases once we get to working on it. It's something Auchand and I want to spearhead rsn! There are other projects that we want to complete though before opening this can of wyroms.

We do have a temp system already, it's not very used (by players). We can have armor that explodes after Xs hits. And while I think it's awesome, the last time I used this was not fun after the negative feedback started rolling in. Maybe we'll use it again one day, but I'm not sure I want to live through that again. The system goes way back through, I believe Anfelt debuted some 8x armors that exploded. But the temp system can do all sorts of things, mostly just removes some/all of a property after a certain number of uses/hits/swings.

But try not to attack each other's ideas or I'll delete all your accounts. (This is a joke, but be nice, please)

willow plaza
#

Bad ideas are important. They sometimes provoke conversation that brings about good ideas. Figuring out what doesn't work is a part of figuring out what does. Just because I, or you, or someone else thinks something would be fun doesn't mean it's a good solution... it means what we said: we think it's a fun idea. I kind of see this whole thread as throwing spaghetti at the wall and seeing what sticks.

placid vortex
#

Yeah, talking things through are always good. If I were to tell you that breakage is absolutely the answer, there would be mass hysteria over it. I don't think permanent breakage is the answer, but a damage & repair system 20 years ago would have likely solved a big treasure issue. But I can certainly see in today's game that it wouldn't be the best move anymore. I've talked it over to death with some staff. It sucks, because the system exists and is already intertwined with everything already.

limber creek
#

I understand the rationale behind temp gear, but I think it's well past time everyone admits that's never going to pan out the way those in favor of it expect it will. Few use feras and even then it's at the very lowest levels, pretty much all the temp padded/weighted/resistance stuff that goes out via DR and the treasure system goes straight to the pawn without passing go, and this exploding armor Wyrom just mentioned was apparently so poorly received it hasn't seen the light of day in what? years? a decade? more?

The only way temp gear or properties on it seems to work in GS is if there's some way to renew the temp properties or keep the effects on it long term, such as enhancives or fittings.

rapid pecan
#

What about making the discount for attuning upgrades even more significant, so those who donā€™t earn a lot of silver can still have a pathway to purchasing nice gear.

willow plaza
#

Yeah, I don't ever see breakage going over well unless existing items are grandfathered in somehow, especially after like almost a decade of DR. Might fix the treasure system, but would probably be detrimental to revenue. I'm not a "big spender" but I know my spending would drop to zero if what I invested in was destined to break.

placid vortex
#

Well yeah, I'd never want permanent breakage. It would just be a damage & repair system. So once things tick down after being damaged you just have it repaired to be restored. But it would never be seen as a fix to anything.

willow plaza
#

Yeah. Maybe? I mean, it's sort of the flips side to enhancives. That's exactly what that system is, and it seems fairly popular. But you're most likely right, it would never get past the initial perception.

merry pecan
#

Every time you guys are mean to one another, I'll break out the new emoji.

placid vortex
#

If that doesn't work, we use the max damage 9999emoji!

willow plaza
# rapid pecan What about making the discount for attuning upgrades even more significant, so t...

This vibes with me. I don't attune my stuff, but I've always seen the concept as really worthwhile. I would love to see more folks have viable access to higher end stuff by further dropping the unit price for attunement, but it also feels like that weird space where items being potentially devalued could adversely affect things as a whole. However, it could maybe be a good space to introduce items with degradation over time at a further discounted price point, basically buying into breakage... and over time you'll end up paying just as much to maintain it as you would to buy it outright, but the entry point is way lower for accessability.

cobalt jetty
#

Nothing is sold for silvers, so how does attunement discounts come into play

latent fossil
night reef
willow plaza
willow plaza
unkempt chasm
#

What if you implemented something similar to breakage by having items as they are now be considered the base state, but create temporary upgrades that degrade over time until repaired?

e.g. I buy a +10 AS Sharpened Blade upgrade for my sword and +5 TD Warded Armor upgrade for my armor, then the odds of the upgrades breaking or degrading are derived from the STR/DU stats of the materials. Recent profession services like Mystic Tattoos and Lucky Items have more or less adopted this model and it seems to have caught on with at least some percentage of players, except there the drain is on resource points instead of silvers.

willow plaza
# unkempt chasm What if you implemented something similar to breakage by having items as they ar...

I know a lot of folks who stockpile those oils (bless, bane, etc.) and use them to hunt. I think it's another really neat idea in general. Also, could be introduced into the treasure system with additional effects. Maybe with shorter durations and/or limitation to how many can be applied at a given time. Edit: I know the perception is -- temp items in the treasure system don't get used... but maybe that's because they aren't good temp items?

limber creek
willow plaza
# limber creek temp items certainly get used.... weapons/armor with temp properties, no one wan...

Yeah, that was my perception as well, but there seem to be other perceptions about it. I save a ton of cubes and statues for a friend who uses them for hunting, and like with the mentioned oils, I know multiple folks who buy those in bulk when they are available at events and use them year round. I really dig Leafiara's idea about being able to add effects like temp enchants or warding (also love stuff like what's offered by the alchemist in Cold River). Since the thread is about ways to improve the treasure system and the incentives it grants, I keep framing all these cool ideas in that context.

unkempt chasm
#

Yeah, Cold River is the the reason I even thought of what I just said... the Wildfire Oil seemingly demonstrates that there's a hidden property slot (if not multiples) independent of anything players have access to for permanent upgrades. So why not just expand on it? Temporary flares, temporary flare rate increase, temporary AS, temporary parry boost, whatever makes sense.

placid vortex
snow violet
#

Speaking purely for myself, I can say I probably won't engage with any system that relies on temporary or consumable items. I only have a mystic tattoo on Khyrion because he can recharge it himself, and only a couple of enhancives outside AdvG badges.

In general, I don't find managing constantly-draining charges or consumable uses to be fun from a gameplay perspective.

Even watching spell timers tick down while I sit idle in game makes me twitchy.

lethal hull
#

I really like the cold river fragment system. I always felt like it was a great way to offer things folks want temporarily and maybe even offer prize wall style perm buys. Im sure only Wildfire and slush get sold there, but I do think a system like that game wide would be very fun.

The HW is really the best hunting ground in the game for lots of reasons. Rare critter drops, hidden/not hidden bosses, gigas shard system. Its why i keep coming back there. Its the only place that is really interesting.

Side note: i also think revisiting existing but pointless features in our current gear system is worthwhile. Example

  • fix damage weighting. Its awful
  • drop tokens that will boost (like a lesser form of Flare Affinity) specific flare types for x in game hours. Most ability slot flares are very boring in effect
  • reduce the charge cost on Ranks enhancives. If a fix of that system is not possible, at least bring Ranks recharge costs equal to Bonus.
  • etc. Find these pain/boring/pointless points in our current gear system and upgrade them here and there
#

I also try to remember the charm system is comingā€¦and that DOES sound like a fun and interesting silver system. We just know so little about it that we cant really discuss it

violet fjord
kind steeple
#

The adventurer guild being revamped to be more like cold river alchemist shop would be great.

Dont get rid of existing adventurer guild offerings, im talking additions. Being able to buy temp resistances for elements, temp flare affinity, consumable potions for plus AS, DS, TD, CS that last an hour or more, temp potions that provide access to unique cmans that all professions can utilize, etc.

Most of alchemy is fairly useless but existing effects of alchemy items could be updated. Allow for the creation of all the stuff i suggested above but via alchemy. To force choice you could implement a toxicity burst limit that causes increasingly negative status effects if you consume to many potions at the same time.

Expand alchemy shops to sell all of the potions that can be created for silvers. Some folks would use existing alchemy items but no one is making them, its hard to track them down for purchase, or the player doesnt want to interact with other players. Add a markup on the price to compensate.

Introduce a system that allows you to temporarily layer creature skins over your existing armor for new effects and enhancives. Would be an expansion to furrier shops and cost silvers plus having to supply the skin. Simple consumable effects like 1 use of healing of all minor wounds and scars if you graft a troll king skin.

brave turtle
#

I love the Cold River alchemist and think thatā€™s an awesome model to expand on.

flint wharf
rapid pecan
#

Iā€™m not clear on how draining silvers helps anyone. Do we really believe there will be deflation such that normal players can buy better stuff if the wealthy have less silver?

If weā€™re talking about improving the treasure system, is the goal to get more silvers into the hands of the common player faster, so they can buy more stuff, or is the goal to input new items into the world in place of chipped bricks?

lethal hull
#

The drain silver battlecry makes me chuckle now. Cui Bono?

flint wharf
#

It's just another issue that's been brought up, repetitively. Simply offering up a suggestion that seems like it could help both.
Not sure why it got quickly attacked. What's the downside to the AG benefits being accessible via silvers? Bounty Points become a nice boost and supplemental way to access fixskils, fixstats, and recharging, but I'd be surprised if much else was redeemed.
If the temporary exotic flares/scripts/materials were offered, opening it up to silvers would create more accessibility. What's the downside?

Edit: @lethal hull , you also stated that "silvers" are the main treasure even out there now, wouldn't making silvers have broader appeal and utility be a way to enhance the existing treasure system without needing to build update the "very difficult to touch/manage" treasure system?, Maybe stating it as "drain the silvers" is the wrong way for me to say it.... but maybe "make silvers more useful" is the better banner.

lethal hull
# flint wharf It's just another issue that's been brought up, repetitively. Simply offering up...

Sorry. I didnt mean it as an attack. Im all for AG stuff for silvers. I even started a thread to ask them to leave silver enhancive recharging on. It got no staff interaction and the recharge for silver option was shut down a few days ago.

The staff seems on one hand determined to a)not let anyone they can stop generate silver wealth and at the same time b) limit extensively what silver can do and/or price silver offerings into the stratosphere (see OSA) so as to ensure what is spent can never be recouped.

A cynical man might say its all just an attempt to force simustore sales by squeezing the bottom out instead of offering value for spend.

The ā€˜drain the silversā€™ as a goal unti itself thing is something i think is bad for the customer experience. It begs the question, ā€˜What happens when we do drain the silvers? What improvements occur?ā€™ Currently, with the upcoming curtailment of event boxes, I do not see a single benefit that has happened in game as a result of this oft touted goal

willow plaza
#

Silvers are the standard. That's to say, the underlying system of reward has always been two factors: silvers (tangible) and experience (intangible). Everything else in the reward phase of the game is derivative of that and predicated upon providing ways to allow players to utilize both of those rewards. I know that feel like a statement that is needlessly obvious, but since we're talking about the treasure/reward system, just pointing out that's the quintessential purpose for treasure: to spend it. As I understand it, the "drain the silvers" push is less related to what's going out as reward (loot cap is the control there) as it is providing options of how folks can utilize those rewards in the long term, and trying to repair a market that went decades with typically limited options to do so. In that regard, you can view tons of new additions as being designed with maintaining the rewards system long term: everything from ascension to the customizing shops being released around Elanthia.

If the goal of treasure improvements is to "make getting treasure more exciting" then, I feel like there needs to be focus on the instant gratification... how is it fun to open a box? What immediate rewards does it offer aside from dumping into the fundamental silver/xp pool?

If the goal of treasure improvements is to "make silvers more worthwhile" then, I feel like staff is already doing a pretty great job of rolling out options to spend your silvers on almost faster than I can keep up with now. It's kind of amazing.

In reality, I know it's both of those, but I'm sipping on my caffeine this morning and just pondering how to be most constructive. The later of those two already has a lot of staff attention - save/invest/win.

lethal hull
wheat cypress
flint wharf
#

I think that's well said Myharl. I think both could be addressed. Instant gratification/excitement, along with better utility for silvers.
Echoing Ptolemy's point - I dont think there are ANY really "great" options to spend silver on. RIght now, the only thing worthwhile I feel are out there are player services. But that's just my humble perspective.

I want to be able to have the option to drop 250k to go use a fully unlocked xyz mega blah blah weapon. Let me leverage those silvers to try all kinds of new/fun things, and maybe it gets me to spend more simucoins.

I know people are poo poo'ing the temporary items, based on temp padding/weighting... but that's not even in the same ballpark as I'm thinking. Get the things that are 100-500k bloodscrip out there in temp form.

willow plaza
lethal hull
#

OSA is a massive trap. I'm saying this as maybe the game's biggest OSA supporter. If ANYONE asked me today, should I do OSA? I'd say get a sloop and stop right there. Any boat beyond sloop is a massive bait. You'll spend obsence amounts of money and never even come close to making a fracton of it back. The fact that only individuals can buy them, means that pooling money for big purchases is just not a thing. Even transfer of ownership comes with a whopping 20% tax on the seller.

Any 'investment' purchases (not sure exactly what those are, but i'll use the MCPs Lithyia mentioned) are in my previously mentioned 'stratosphere'. Frankly, they were sold once for silver and that was that. Similar properties sold in desireable towns in the west at auction would almost certainly go for double or triple. I think once you are in the 100m+ territory of costs, you have lost 95% of your players as purchasers. Silver is a massive binary. You have tons, or you may as well have none.

hot quarry
#

Sounds like OSA is hitting its target then, more RP than function/investment which I assume is what even brought it to life. The idea of RP'ing as/with Pirates!
There are definitely many things in GS that are either a terrible time/money-to-output ratio but I see some players make it a huge part of their characters which makes it worth as an option.
I feel sad for anyone who joins this game and declares they want to be a forger and make money yet in other video games it is WELL REWARDED

willow plaza
#

Just continuing on my "instant gratification/reward" string of thought... I'm kind of reflecting on "Feeder Frenzy" and how that to me, and many others, felt really exciting. A better chance at getting something fun in a box. I feel like that statement alone speaks volumes. We're not even talking high end items; its much more about the experience of finding it. While it's not viable to dedicate the level of resources needed to maintain that long term, I think I really feel like focusing on that aspect of the reward phase is what GS is lacking. My thoughts are still mulling and forming, but that's where my head is at this morning.

lethal hull
#

Well...the way to make that viable long term is to put items in the treasure system that are still exciting but fully copy pasta'd. The alter books idea, for example. Everyone can make use of a single alter. Rare fodder is fun and if its not valuable to you, might be to someone else. Rare drops are fun too, again, value to someone else if not to you (thank you to the afking bot who left a disir feather on the floor in HW yesterday. I appreciate you), etc

hot quarry
#

95% of drops are just exchange for silver cogs while we do have some things like collectibles and alchemist stuffs. Maybe we need a much higher percentage of non-silver exchange drops that are pieces for many many other systems. Kind of like the mobile games where every freakin week you are picking up a new type of currency that boosts some new effect or system.

lethal hull
# hot quarry 95% of drops are just exchange for silver cogs while we do have some things like...

I'd like to see something interesting drop on a much higher rate, yes. I'm actually hoping to see some expectations from staff on that. Like...how many box founds should a player find in a month. A year. A decade. Etc? Given 1 lumnis cycle per week sort of metrics.

Most folks report like 1-2 boxfounds in a lifetime over one character. And replace boxfound with 'something interesting and fun' if you like

violet fjord
#

I will second the thumbs up for the gigas artifact system, I think it's a great way to approach secondary gains as part of regular hunting. Also in favor of more temporary combat boosters as drops (royal jelly, etc).

wheat cypress
willow plaza
# wheat cypress I have played on and off since 1996 and I think I've found one legit boxfound in...

Yeah, it's pretty rare. I know folks who never have. I think I've found a dozen or so over the years. Two in the past year: one was a toy the other an altered medium container. Frequency of unique box founds is always going to be dependent on how much you hunt. Like with the Legendary Feeder, huntbot teams are going to corner that market. But would love to see other fun options that remain rare, but frequent enough that even the most casual of gamers has a realistic chance at finding something interesting in the treasure system.

wheat cypress
rapid pecan
willow plaza
#

One more thought this morning as I start my day: Since a regional system is already in place for gems, would be neat if that same concept could be expanded upon for additional fun/rare finds. So a given region provides access to relevant items. Alter fodder (thrakwood in Solhaven), themed auto-generated items (think warm clothes up North), maybe even rare familiar talismans relevant to each region. Even things like player customization drops that could be regionally themed. Fun things that don't require unique creation, but are varied and rare enough to still feel like a win.

loud zephyr
#

Ooof. Add alter fodder to the collectible system for storage. My poor lockers.

willow plaza
lethal hull
#

The apparatus is a very good addition. Its only downside is the cost of 200 soulshards to turn your existing fodder into Alter Fodder. That said, I do use it alot. I find the convenience worth it

willow plaza
lethal hull
#

I'm all for stuff like 'fodder conversion ticket' in the treasure system that turns an item into Fodder exactly like the antiquarian does but for free

flint wharf
# willow plaza One more thought this morning as I start my day: Since a regional system is alre...

I feel like this is a concept a lot of other games leverage (regionalized or raid specific treasure). Iā€™m going to push it to an extreme that would likely get shot down quickly.
Want to find the super cool/rare xyz item? Grind a specific area thatā€™s themed towards it. Make it account attuned when found, but could be traded in as a collectible to build towards something specific if you donā€™t want to use what you found (also not uncommon). Like deposit 10 animal items, get one of your choice. One of the hurdles with the treasure system now is that even when you find something, itā€™s like a 1 in 100 chance that itā€™s suited to your build or play style.

Rift - void or dispel items
Moonsedge - voln items
HW - animalistic items
Sanctum - energy or mana/sigil items
Hive - parasitic items
Atoll- rusalkoren items

Just brainstorming ideas here!

willow plaza
# flint wharf I feel like this is a concept a lot of other games leverage (regionalized or rai...

I definitely feel like something along these lines is what the current collectable system could become. The advantage being, there's already framework in place. In regard to your last sentence, that's actually why I'm pretty firmly against the idea of attuning treasure in any way. Once an item is attuned, unless it's something the end user wants, it's as useless as a chipped brick. Would like to see attunement stick to promotional offers (gift boxes) and player-initiated discounts (DR attunement for discount). Otherwise, I think it's a super neat idea!

Anyone remember collectables trade night events? Those were fun, back before we all realized the rewards didn't justify the effort. A revamp could really bring that community aspect back to treasure.

lethal hull
jaunty gate
#

You could imagine some system by which loot in a certain area improved gear you already have in some way. For example, you buy voln armor, and when you hunt in Moon's Edge and if you're wearing voln armor you earn some special loot that improves your armor in some way; this way you know the player wants the loot because they've chosen to buy the armor and they've chosen to hunt in ME. It would also encourage event currency spending, which is a nice side effect.

The problem is I'm not sure this is "loot" per se. Does it have some innate value that can be measured in silvers and thus counted against the loot cap? I'm not sure.

buoyant rain
lethal hull
# jaunty gate You could imagine some system by which loot in a certain area improved gear you ...

Anything like this needs to have ZERO pawn value. The value is to other players only. That way, it doesn't impact the sacred cow of silver drain/loot cap and instead helps to move silver around from haves to have nots.

We've already clearly demonstrated the only way to make anything like gains in silver is to sell your profession services. Thats pure wealth redistribution. We need treasure drops that can help facilitate that.

flint wharf
#

Good example.... just found this:


It imparts a bonus of +5 more than usual.
It has been infused with the power of a lightning bolt.
It appears to weigh about 6 pounds.
It is estimated to be worth about 600,000 silvers.
It is temporarily exceptionally weighted to inflict more critical wounds than a normal weapon of its type.  Its temporary enhancement will degrade when it scores a successful strike.  It has quite a few uses left before the enhancement degrades away completely, which will cause the item to lose its ability to inflict greater damage.
It is predominantly crafted of zorchar.
It is an involved project (256 difficulty) for an adventurer to modify.
It has a permanently unlocked loresong by Jaskier.```
- Will i use it? Nope, because I already have nicely weighted weapons. Weighting is pretty common. Will i hold on to this? Yes. Will likely either find a nice early adventurer to give to, or stuff it in my locker in hopes of another premium point palooza in December next year to permify the weighting.
- Would I use this if instead of weighting it was a temporary Xaz, Somnis, Rusalk, T3 Briar, rotflares, vethinye, Ghezyte or some other high end material/script/flare? Heck yeah! Gimmie 500 swings with one of those to try something new. That would be exciting!
normal bloom
#

I have altitis. I was wondering if anyone else looks in the pawnshop for things for your alts? I saw some half plate the other day I would have put on my little warrior for a long time but I just couldnā€™t bring myself to pay over a million silver for something just sitting in the pawnshop.

unkempt chasm
#

I stick to playershops for that, but I've definitely known some pawnshop divers and I'm quite sure they've found the occasional amazing deal!

normal bloom
#

I suppose I need the figure out the player shops better. Iā€™ve used it a couple times but itā€™s clunky

trail cloak
#

Iā€™ve found some amazing (high end) enhancives over the years from the pawnshops

flint wharf
#

I do both šŸ˜¬

unkempt chasm
#

I mean, I fairly often see Roblar dropping into pawnshop backrooms while I'm selling things, so it must work!

Just out of curiosity, I checked the Landing/Solhaven/Icemule/FWI pawnshops right now. There's +5 TD full leather in Icemule for only a bit over 100k even with no Trading (would be down to ~76k for me), which is exactly the kind of piece I'd consider starting an alt with.

willow plaza
#

Myharl made his fortune being a pawnshop urchin for 15 years. I don't do is nearly as much as I used to, but some really fun things come across those tables. A lot of inventory I've sold in my shop over the years, I snagged from the pawn. It's a much easier gig now with the changes to INSPECT. It used to be a real gamble.

latent fossil
#

Pawnshop cruising is the best!

normal bloom
#

I really wanted that plate I saw the other day but I am trying to save for DR as much as possible and didnā€™t want to spend over a million on a pawnshop find. I did find a pretty cool claidhmore a while back though.

zenith mountain
#

Just to add another non game breaking thing that people would love to find...1lb lighten notes with no use limit other than it can't go below .5lb or whatever. make it not work on armor so it doesn't break the game, but being able to make your cloak .5lb instead of 3lb isn't gonna break the game but everyone will want it. Put those in the treasure system. Make them attuned to the person who finds them if you want...that way one person can't buy them all up and save 60lbs of encumbrance if that's so game breaking.

fair loom
#

I'd love to see some of the very rare materials show up on clothing (rarely). šŸ™‚

kind steeple
#

Introduce a system that rewards alternatives when being impacted by loot pressure or loot cap. Im assuming everything that is sellable has a baseline value and the game could calculate the difference between what the player is receiving and that baseline.

If a skin has a baseline of 1000 silver but the player is receiving 500 silver due to loot pressure or loot cap then the player would receive 500 credits. These credits could be applied in different ways based on player choice. Conversion values would need to be determined by staff.

Options for credits:
Suffusion
Premium points
Bounty points
Instant exp absorb boosts
Double experience absorb boosts
Long term experience

As an example, every 1,000,000 credits from loot pressure or loot cap could reward 10 suffusion.

None of these options generate more silver wealth but a couple could allow for transferring silvers by selling to other players.

jaunty gate
#

I like that concept.

runic steeple
#

Thatā€™s interesting.

willow plaza
kind steeple
#

I'd still like to just choose between loot or the type of benefits suggested all the time. Outside of a big silver auction I don't think anyone is actively seeking it other than it being an acceptable payment for player services and the wps wagon.

Clearly lots of players are dissatisfied with current loot generation and how it is impacted by pressure and having a cap.

If players have the option to choose rewards that are non transferrable and don't impact the economy I see that as the correct direction to go.

willow plaza
violet fjord
# willow plaza And, also as a means to buy alternative currency without cash investment, but ye...

Probably unpopular opinion, and certainly a ship that has already sailed - but Iā€™m actually not 100% certain that pay event currency/entries for silvers is actually a good thing for the game. I understand the appeal, but IMO it encourages some not-so-great behaviors. It also creates a power dynamic that can be difficult to navigate (I paid cash so treat me differently, etc)

In my experience, other games that have items for cash bind that in some way to the purchaser. I donā€™t think that works as well in a game with a small population like GS, but it does avoid some problems.

unkempt chasm
#

At risk of sounding flippant or dismissive, I can't think of anything that exists in the entire scope of GS that I'd say I'm 100% certain is "actually a good thing for the game."

Anything. Premium, pay events, the entire crit system, spells existing, outside buffs being allowed, outside buffs being restricted in spell sever, raffles, auctions, anything. We argue about almost all of these things many, many times every year!

willow plaza
# violet fjord Probably unpopular opinion, and certainly a ship that has already sailed - but I...

You know, on attunment, I agree and disagree. When it comes to high end items, I'd like to see a solution like: a top tier ability to each high end item that can only be unlocked if you attune it permanently. That way everyone has their options, and there is incentive to choose to transition a high end item out of the viable market. I really like how there is the option to attune an item for a lower price point, adding unlockable abilities to the mix would add incentive for those folks who have more money than they'd ever need to do the same.

lethal hull
#

I think the decision (though we have no official word on this atm) mentioned to curtail event box entries to 25 per character pretty clearly indicates letting players get pay event items for silver is not a thing that is going to remain.

I was always deeply skeptical of the claim that loot cap = event boxes (edit: To be fair, staff never made this claim, players did). Its clear now that this isn't the case

brave turtle
#

I am pretty sure Wyrom said on multiple occasions that event boxes were only possible because of the loot cap. Someone better at discord than me would need to find the quotes, though

unkempt chasm
#

#1049529762407792761 message

I don't regret loot cap, it's allowed for substantial silver drains with offering pay event content for silver (Delirium, Duskruin Dig, EVENT BOX, Rings of Lumnis shop content, and SimuCoin Store items at events here and there).```

Edit: Oh, this same post is even good for other things I was mentioning earlier in the Hinterwilds thread too about how efforts to drain silvers generally aren't aimed at the top end:
```We can't really aim to bring down the wealthy silver accounts beyond things like auctions, but even auctions have a whole lot of good for everyone else.  As long as a list stays relatively unknown, planning won't be possible and there will be some great deals with the midrange offerings.```
willow plaza
#

100% agree that the auctions are a great solution for silver drain. They are also extremely dev intensive. Would love some brainstorming outside of the treasure system conversation to discuss ways to capture that sans the time investment from already stressed staff.

unkempt chasm
#

I will say that I'm curious how they're going to make up for event box drains going from like 5-8 billion per pay event (with five pay events) to probably a tiny fraction of that (and now with only four pay events).

I don't think the enhancive reroller and gemstones alone can do it. I admit I'm always surprised by how much the WPS wagon drains, but WPS is a much less niche service than enhancives (which a lot of people ignore other than badges) and gemstones (which are aimed at far post-cap only).

willow plaza
#

Spitballing ideas: Gamify the game, maybe? Enhancive re-roller provides a very small chance at adding +1 to one of the random rerolled stats. Keep dumping in silvers to snag those eventual +1 boosts.

lime hatch
#

I'm curious to see how much via EVENT BOXes is offered this DR...

Also on a tangent it would be extremely fun and exciting if you could get some DR drops hunting in the world during the event...a good way to encourage people to head over there. Worst case scenario they sell it. Single entries could be uncommon, 5-10 packs rare, and 50 packs extremely rare or something like that.

I think creative marketing ideas like that, which also spruce up the treasure system a bit (at least during events) is a win-win. Wasn't there something a few years ago where boxes got some sort of DR entry in them and people complained about box size and not fitting in disks? lol

hollow zephyr
#

LEAFI SAYS, At risk of sounding flippant or dismissive, I can't think of anything that exists in the entire scope of GS that I'd say I'm 100% certain is "actually a good thing for the game." Hi! I'm Dwi! šŸ»

slow zodiac
#

have not kept up with this thread, but hunted the scatter until I couldn't stay any longer to get this, made me think about this thread again. Shouldn't be into any form of loot cap for the month, tracking to about 6-7 mil silver so far in Jan. The one box from the pool may have been a HW one, but I had none to turn in.

|     Silver Breakdown      |
+----------------+----------+
| Locksmith Pool |    3,665 |
| Gemshop        |    2,480 |
| Pawnshop       |      805 |
+----------------+----------+
| Total          |    6,950 |
+----------------+----------+
lethal hull
#

A group (or two) that was destroying the loot in HW seemed to move on. I think you have new neighbors.

bright zenith
#

PvEvP

violet fjord
# 
|  Silver Breakdown   |
+----------+----------+
| Pawnshop |    1,224 |
+----------+----------+
| Total    |    1,224 |
+----------+----------+```
I don't think I'm doing it right.
brave turtle
#

We love loot pressure don't we folks

lethal hull
#

More fun experiences with loot pressure. player A lessening the fun of player B as intended by game design. The loot cap for the little folk is the hunting of other folk.

unkempt chasm
#

What script even is it that you guys are using?

jaunty gate
#

That's the printout after using eloot to sell.

violet fjord
#

My problem is that the current generation of the locksmith pool brigade apparently is too good for my frugal tips, so I'm at like 80% capacity until the late shift comes in šŸ˜†

unkempt chasm
#

Too few in number, not too good!

hot quarry
#

You just got to outhunt the MA group by buying an even larger MA team and creating a more efficient custom Bigshot. That will show em, 10 person raid party or 2 5 man squads...
Or have each character just move back and forth between different 5-room sections nonstop x 10 = 50 rooms covered. Locust squad. Vacuum cleaner the loot.
And have one bot than circles around and grabs all the boxes and deposits em in loop

gaunt ridge
#

Find a smaller hunting area and do one room per char. Can wreck past the barrier in the atoll

violet fjord
#

I should clarify, my post was meant to be very tongue-in-cheek. I don't sell gems/skins by default - they're mostly hoarded for bounties until I have excess (and good gems for singing). I also definitely don't loot hunt, it's hunt to bounty completion and rest.

runic steeple
#

That's probably "harassment" or GMA.

unkempt chasm
loud zephyr
#

Such a strange conversation.

lime hatch
#

the loot was definitely dreadful in the Scatter last night but this morning I got lots of boxes and several emeralds in my first hunt so it seems to have recovered already

blazing elbow
#

Loot Pressure doesnt adjust that quickly, according to earlier hints by hewhoshallnotbenamed around the time Den of Rot was released.

flint wharf
#

I do feel like pretty typically around the 25th of the month, the loot woes start settling in for everyone... Usually around this time the loot pressure questions/conversations start kicking up

unkempt chasm
#

Not in pay event months! Then people start complaining about those instead!
(Not excluding myself from "people!")

flint wharf
#

add scripts to feras weapons...

latent fossil
flint wharf
#

I did not realize greater feras existed!

violet fjord
#

I have never heard of it

latent fossil
#

it procs a GEF level flare almost every swing.. I think I have a log of @final grove getting one out of our loot pile at the Plat arena item grab bag. Just pick up feras items and swing em a few times until you find a spicy one. They're rare.

fair loom
latent fossil
#

would be fun if the capacity was visible tho!

flint wharf
# 
As the blow lands, the feras weapon unleashes a severe smiting of lightning! - powerful flares
As the blow lands, the feras weapon unleashes a damaging blast of lightning! - moderate to powerful flares
As the blow lands, the feras weapon unleashes a heavy surge of lightning! - moderate flares
As the blow lands, the feras weapon unleashes a moderate discharge of lightning! - weak to moderate flares
As the blow lands, the feras weapon unleashes a small shock of lightning! - weak flares
With a brilliant flash, the feras weapon crumbles into worthless fragments! - The feras weapon no longer exists.```
Isn't this kind of it?
latent fossil
#

hmm! are they just all like that now?

maybe I'm just old and believe in myths

willow plaza
#

I always appraise feras weapons, though. What does happen from time to time is that when the treasure system makes them enhancive, they get some sort of bonkers bonus to the geration. I've seen several with up to 5 different bonuses, and with bonuses in the double digits. They still disintegrate if you use them, however they can be orbed at the shaman at EG for one of the enhancives (to be used in fusion equipment). What crossed my mind, but I haven't tried, is to see if you can pop a 15k bloodscrip transmute at DR to change the metal from feras (losing the material flares)... thus creating a base permanent weapon with crazy good enhancives.

latent fossil
queen anchor
#

I really like the idea of character hunting pressure. I would also think it would be neat to get certificates for things and how powerful of an item you can get is based on if its tradeable or not. Tradable - Tier 0 of an item/Account Bound - half tiers unlocked/Character Bound - fully unlocked.

fair loom
#

I would rather see less hunting pressure vs. more (character based). We have a loot cap to address the top end in place.

flint wharf
jaunty gate
#

Yeah but for people who don't play as much, they're more likely to earn more loot for the time they do play because they're not subject to loot pressure imposed by other players.

willow plaza
#

I'd like to see hunting pressure just removed from the game. It's ineffective. Those who farm silvers are going to farm them anyway up to Loot Cap. There's no reason to punish folks hunting an area because other players frequent it with their hoard of characters. It's ridiculous to expect a casual or even heavy-casual player to compete with one person's party of 10 grunts sucking up all the loot.

latent fossil
willow plaza
flint wharf
#

Donā€™t want my thoughts misconstruedā€¦. I totally agree with everyoneā€™s sentiments on loot pressure. It feels bizarre that anything i do hunting wise, would impact anyone else, and vice versa. Iā€™d be upset/annoyed if the 10-20 person parties all crashed my hunting ground and pushed it to kobold level loot.
I was just saying the concept of character pressure seems to already by in place. They just need to eliminate loot pressure

willow plaza
unkempt chasm
#

I like to take a step back here and remember why loot pressure even exists, which is...
https://gswiki.play.net/Treasure_system/saved_posts
Our treasure system is also based off of the assumption that underhunted creatures are either relatively hard for their level or are in remote areas, so their treasure is increased while overhunted creatures (assumed to be easy relative to their peers) see reduced treasure.
...so I tend to think that suggestions involving getting rid of loot pressure are doomed to fail unless they retain at least one and possibly both of these elements of encouraging people to hunt harder creatures and/or branch out to explore more of the game.

willow plaza
# unkempt chasm I like to take a step back here and remember why loot pressure even exists, whic...

My opinion is the moment that GS became a buy-in, that was thrown out the window. Loot pressure made sense back in the day when everyone was on equal footing. Now "hard areas" are relative to how much cash you can drop on events. There's a huge imbalance between how pressure balance was intended to work and how it's working. That's why those who invest the most money (as a player) tend to make the most money (as a character). It funnels down, and from a balance perspective, that's a problem in my opinion.

unkempt chasm
#

Bringing in pay events is an interesting angle I hadn't considered, and I generally agree with the premise that the rich get richer. Not necessarily I agree it's a problem, but it is a thing.

That said, I still think there needs to be something substituted in for the loot pressure effect. The bandit train on Kraken's Fall was considered so problematic by dev that they had to create the Atoll just to put a stop to it, and that's even though bandit loot is terrible and people were just doing it for exp. At least bandits don't have boxes, but even then, a similar circumstance just arises anywhere else. Why not hunt the easiest possible "real" hunting ground when you can make as much there as the hardest one?

willow plaza
#

Personal perspective: I feel like when I'm no where near soft cap, it's early in the month, and I'm pulling a high number of 1-2k boxes from the Hinterwilds, and know that's because the same 2-3 parties of 5-10 characters of the same MA have been hunting 18/24 hours, it feels bad. I mean, loot isn't why I play/hunt, but it is a reward used to progress your character just like experience. I feel like the opinion would quickly shift if EXP earned had hunt pressure applied. It's a matter of perspective, I suppose.

unkempt chasm
#

In case I'm not being clear enough, I want loot pressure gone. I just think it's a nonstarter, and probably an oversimplification, to suggest deleting it and calling it a day.

What does the world without loot pressure look like? Is loot based purely on a creature's level? Level but with a bonus factor if they're Ascension creatures? Is it based on their stats? Is it a completely esoteric formula that assigns point values to each stat, skill, spell, and other factors like armor class to determine how challenging a creature probably is and, therefore, how rewarding it should be? (That's actually exactly how I'd do it. More loot if they know Implosion, Sympathy, warcries, Earthen Fury, etc.)

willow plaza
# unkempt chasm Bringing in pay events is an interesting angle I hadn't considered, and I genera...

*"I generally agree with the premise that the rich get richer. Not necessarily I agree it's a problem, but it is a thing." *

It's not just the rich getting richer though, I get that. Invest more, make more. However, loot pressure is everyone else's pay being lowered to compensate the rich being able to make more. I just think the balance issue pressure was intended to resolve was made obsolete by both modern pay events and loot cap.

ashen yew
#

I think an important thing to glean from the posts leafiara is referencing is that loot pressure was not designed to limit the amount a specific character could make. it was designed to encourage players to not all hunt in the same hunting ground because of the perceived ease of those enemies. so in that sense it's not related to rich or poor at all, right

violet fjord
#

It's also framed as a boost - meaning the heavily hunted areas facing loot pressure are the "normal/expected/baseline" loot. The low pop areas get pushed upward.

unkempt chasm
#

Yeah, that too is why I'm saying there needs to be some consideration of and ideas for what the new baseline (in a post-loot-pressure world) is supposed to look like and how it's derived.

ashen yew
#

I have seen that said a few times, but as far as I can tell from the treasure system posts, it is actually possible for an area to get pushed below baseline. ( A kobold is severely overhunted, and carries a -3 mod right now. You can't go below the 1 it starts with, so it's still 1. from the first post there, suggesting that you can get pushed below your level but only like by 3 or so, with the floor being level 1 treasure)

willow plaza
ashen yew
#

however I do think a related point to kaetel's is right, which is, if all the ascension hunting grounds were equally populated, they would all have approximately the same loot and loot pressure would not have any effect.

runic steeple
#

I still think loot pressure (in a loot cap world) fails at every element it's meant to "fix" and it should get get deleted.

ashen yew
#

for me the loot pressure experience was "I get rewarded for hunting forgotten vineyard because people are scared of it" and so I basically like the system and think that it works to reward me for deliberately seeking out harder and less popular hunting areas

#

of course then I posted about it and the loot got worse so it's not, like, perfect lol

willow plaza
#

I don't think the question is "why does loot pressure exist?" (We already have that answer) For me the questions are, "Does it work as intended?" and "Is it causing unintended side effects?" In my replies, my personal perspective and answer to both those questions are clear.

unkempt chasm
#

I agree that loot pressure isn't serving its purpose in a loot cap world, but I don't think change is as easy as you guys are framing it. If loot pressure is a feature that was added at some point to a pre-existing treasure system, then sure, it could be cleanly deleted. But my read of the situation is that loot pressure either is the treasure system or, at very least, is so deeply intertwined into its fabric that getting rid of it means you also have to invent the replacement.

ashen yew
#

"does it work as intended" intrinsically requires answering the question of "why was it made," right, that's the intention

runic steeple
#

I mean, I didn't say it was easy.

ashen yew
#

yeah, I don't really agree that loot pressure isn't serving its purpose or not working as intended. I do think some of the ramifications of its effects are unfortunate, pretty much specifically the fact that players are incentivized to not communicate about loot levels, which I think is a bummer

unkempt chasm
#

I don't want to get too bogged down in minutiae here. There's only one thing I really want to know (from anyone) and have been trying to get at:

What's your ideal treasure system?

Just from a very high level point of view since game design is hard and nobody's going to necessarily think through everything in fine detail. I'll try to take some time and come up with a brief summary of my own too.

willow plaza
# unkempt chasm I don't want to get too bogged down in minutiae here. There's only one thing I r...

**What's My Ideal Treasure System (a summery of the many posts I've made above in this thread over the past months): **

  • Implement more rare dropsā€” These can be tiered (rare, very rare, exceptionally rare, etc.), and even area-specific: everything from rare fodder to McGuffins that can be traded for benefits.

  • Give meaningful value to those rare drops ā€” (The collectables system was, I think, a failed low-end example of what this could be. Charms/gemstones sounds promising. I like the premise of the gigas artifacts in the Hinterwilds, shifted to a physical loot item.)

  • Mitigate loot pressure ā€” If loot pressure is going to remain a thing, then some sort of mechanic to mitigate its impact on players from the low end of the resource consumption spectrum. (Maybe something like a "pressure cap" to the Loot Cap system where below that point, loot pressure is ignored.) This way when Sam and Sally go out to their favorite hunting grounds for their hunt a few times a week they aren't syphoning peanuts after all the loot was sucked up by loot farmers.

  • Remove junk items ā€” Or, at least increase their RP value. (Think how the random treasure/clothing system was implemented, but for "bricks" and other junk. Great opportunity to focus on the artisan/weaving systems here, blocks of woods (look at all the WoodChopper options!)

  • Introduce Low Tier "jackpots" for boxes ā€” In addition to the higher-tier "unique item feeder" and the high-end "legendary feeder", a better chance at a "low-resource" reward (no GM time investment/item) that can just be randomly generated off a list when triggered. (I'm thinking like 1-use alteration books, simucoin items like potions, pills, contracts, etc.)

Ultimately, what the treasure system lacks is a real chance at anything exciting. The better those odds of something fun being in a box, the more worthwhile and engaging it's going to feel.

inner socket
lethal hull
#

I really don't like feeling that another player is somehow being encouraged to unintentionally ruin my gameplay, but that's how I feel.

cobalt jetty
#

I've heard there's been a massive MA group in the scatter lately that is creating swarms so big that it crashes your client when you enter the room.

unkempt chasm
lethal hull
# unkempt chasm You feel that way because they get better loot from less hunted areas? So they g...

All I can tell you is that I've seen valravn skins go from 900 silver before DR, to 5k during DR and now they are back to 1-2k and dropping. How about they stay at 3k for everyone? Instead of Bob playing 30 hours a week hurting the results of Ted's 5 hours a week. Bob should get more than Ted. Ted shouldn't get LESS because Bob exists. The system is built to harm Ted based on Bob's play. Thats...toxic. I don't have a better word.

As for scatter. Thats not a rumor. I've seen it. Literally instant death unless you have one hell of an eject button ready.

Also here```
Names and disks removed just because.
ashen yew
#

the argument as I understand it is is basically that loot pressure means that every other player in hinterwilds is causing jaysehn to make less money from hunting in hinterwilds

#

although it is worth considering that the opposite is also true and every other player in, like, moonsedge, is causing jaysehn to make more money in the hinterwilds

tropic granite
lethal hull
# ashen yew the argument as I understand it is is basically that loot pressure means that ev...

Well..its not just me who feels this way. Loot pressure everywhere in the game does this? And I don't know that we have a correlation between which grounds affect which other grounds. Moonsedge doesn't even have a functional ASC bounty system at this point. I have no idea if people hunting ME affects HW loot, or Hive Loot or anything really.

The argument isn't about me. Does anyone think that one player's rate of play, hours of play and preferences of play should actively harm another player? Why would anyone think that is good for the game? I'm happy to hear the argument, but I'm not sure there is a lot of good evidence to convince me otherwise. I don't think my play should harm other players either.

cobalt jetty
#

Makes me want to go there and >policy report Player is using 20 accounts - Please verify they are following policy 18.

tropic granite
#

i couldnt imagine trying to ma more than like 2-3, id be annoyed b my own screen scroll lol

ashen yew
#

right, I didn't mean to suggest it was just about you. every zone in the game is affected by loot pressure. if you are in a zone that has more people hunting than other zones at the same level, those players are costing you silver; if you are in a zone that has fewer people hunting than other zones at the same level, those players are causing you to earn more silver

lethal hull
ashen yew
#

I do assume that HW loot is affected by ME and Hive loot, that's what we've been told. we could doubt that but at that point we may as well doubt whether HW loot is affecting HW loot!

hot quarry
#

The only good hunting competition I have ever seen in real situation was Lexbubba berserkering everything as I scoop up all the loot šŸ¤« ...... don't tell him it was me!

lethal hull
ashen yew
#

yes, that seems correct, but no mobs are reskinned across levels that way except for bandits

#

but the point is that, according to that, people killing stuff in the hive will make you earn more in HW

hot quarry
#

I heard a couple people said the Hive is hard but its a gauranteed skin and gem on most kills which should be pretty darn good and its probably empty do to a hard to get to location. I would be curious how much silver per hour ppl getting there. If you really try to loot hunt 30 minutes per day you are definitely hitting soft cap in most cases in ascension areas.

lethal hull
#

yeah, my extreme preference is to say thats a bad system. Its early intent was to force players to move around the game world. That is a dead concept. Folks are where their friends are and doing what they want to do. With some players racing to loot cap, do we even know that their post loot cap kills have impact on pressure? If Bob caps his loot, or hits soft cap...does he continue to push pressure down on the critters he kills? Do we have any evidence of this one way or the other?

unkempt chasm
# lethal hull Well..its not just me who feels this way. Loot pressure everywhere in the game d...

Does anyone think that one player's rate of play, hours of play and preferences of play should actively harm another player?
This is a complex question that goes way beyond the scope of what's being discussed here. I'll have to think on it because I'm actually not sure that it's even avoidable.

As for your earlier comment, though, what would you think if valravn plumes were always at, say, a flat 500 base value for everyone? Because Tikba's not wrong in pointing out that just as some players are pushing the Hinterwilds down, many more are pushing it up. There's a non-zero chance that the flat value world with no loot pressure would actually be a loss to you if you're already hunting the best or some of the best capped loot there is. (Where it would much more likely be a gain is places like Nelemar and OTF.)

lethal hull
ashen yew
# unkempt chasm ```Does anyone think that one player's rate of play, hours of play and preferenc...

in the context of players harming other players, I would note that one of the examples people are giving right here is a player (or players) having negative impacts on other players because their presence in the zone is causing so many enemies to spawn that it is too dangerous for other players to enter. this isn't related to the treasure system, it's purely a question of the spawner, but it is an example of the ways in which many normal game actions have ramifications that affect others

lethal hull
#

Yup. But also maybe 14 unresponsive characters, half of whom were dead, maybe shouldnt be able to put other players in that situation without a serious gm check. There are several large groups that strip an area dry and move on to the next area after a week or so and repeat the process.

unkempt chasm
# ashen yew in the context of players harming other players, I would note that one of the ex...

Right. Another one that I had in mind is that even a solo character might find some creatures to be a waste of their time (Sanctum monstrosities, Hinterwilds golems, Moonsedge grotesques) and/or too scary to bother with (Sanctum shapers, various Hinterwilds creatures, various Hive creatures), so they leave those creatures alone and they just kind of pile up.

Them piling up might have no meaning whatsoever to the character leaving them behind if they have the exp and gear to not consider them threats if they're just running past, but they could be really deadly to others in the area. Now, obviously this isn't on the level of a giant army cranking spawn rates up, but it's a thing that occurs that would stop me from going as far as broadly saying that someone's preferences of play shouldn't harm others.

bright zenith
#

I like the PvEvP dynamic of loot pressure but at this point it feels like a relic of the less forgiving game design paradigms in the vein of permanent item loss, going demonic, full loot deaths, etc.

Figured Iā€™d go ahead and confirm, and yeah itā€™s from 1999 (GSIII to GSIV conversion was a few years later in 2003)

slow zodiac
#

I can tell when I'm going to die to 30 critters in the scatter because my game will lock up for a moment when I try to enter the roomšŸ˜† I don't see the scroll until I'm already dead.

I'd ask the question a different way -> Is loot pressure accomplishing anything? Is what it may be accomplishing the intended design? Is that a design we like and want to keep?

I don't know the answers, but in catching up in this thread that's where I started. We have people saying they dislike parts of loot pressure, but can we establish any positives? If the answer is no, what is it really doing for us?

urban pasture
#

I'm all for a loot cap for the economy, but I also only hunt because I love to find treasure, whether thats rare gems, or nifty GM items, or just whatever. Its the excitement of "this is THE BOX" for me.

inner socket
ashen yew
unkempt chasm
# slow zodiac I can tell when I'm going to die to 30 critters in the scatter because my game w...

To be honest, I don't recall anyone in the past few days of this discussion other than Tikba vouching for loot pressure having enough merit to remain in place as-is.

That doesn't mean we don't still need to establish some definition of what the new baseline would be without it, though. I've seen a lot of strong cases for what people don't want and brand new things that people do want (like the lists from Ptolemy and Myharl), but not what the baseline of the core system is or how to derive it.

ashen yew
#

it's probably making most of the people in this thread more money because lots of them hunt in ascension areas and those areas are probably benefiting from loot pressure overall

cobalt jetty
#

I hit loot cap, pretty much every month. I'd like a system where I can continue to find loot, for the entire month.

slow zodiac
ashen yew
# inner socket Not sure that I would say a large MA group is a "normal game action" myself.

definitely. I am not personally a fan of large MA groups. if, hypothetically, those were all individual hunters, though, the spawns would be the same. my point is just about the fact that players affect each other as they do things in the game, by spawning more enemies, by clearing out enemies, by leaving certain rooms and certain bad guys, etc., etc. loot pressure is one of those ways but it is not the only way

tropic granite
inner socket
lethal hull
cobalt jetty
#

I don't think they ever really planned for there to be so many of us at level 100.

unkempt chasm
# ashen yew it's probably making most of the people in this thread more money because lots o...

I agree with this, which is one reason it's so fascinating to me that those are still exactly the same players who dislike loot pressure.

It almost makes me wonder if the fix is as simple as a visibility issue. Maybe those 1k valravn plumes are in the "current loot pressure pushdown is 20/100" level, where higher is worse loot, and it's the 5k valravn plumes during Duskruin that are wildly out of whack on the 4/100 level because everyone's off in the arena. But it's just that nobody knows because there's no player-facing way to see that information.

I don't think the fix is as simple as that, though. Even if we had that transparency, we'd probably just move on to new questions and challenges.

slow zodiac
#

I think Tikba's points are valid, in that some of what we're attributing as frustrations with loot and the hunting -> reward cycle are not specific to loot pressure, but a broader range of contributing factors

ashen yew
#

I thought it was very interesting when melivn went and did the loot survey and showed that hinterwilds had very significantly more loot than other areas, and I think itā€™s a little bemusing that it has changed nothing about the loot pressure discussions haha

lethal hull
#

Soul golems shouldnt be a loot pinata with joke mechanics and no challenge and fully afk scriptable because no one is checking in the first place while you get star diopsides from level 100 critters. Its a well known ā€˜featureā€™ of gemstone. The game is poorly policed for afk scripting as is. Getting to the top of the critter pile should yield the best rewards.

Melivn is an exteme outlier able to take down things in seconds.

cobalt jetty
latent fossil
ashen yew
#

For RP reasons I encourage everybody to come hunt the hive

hot quarry
#

Auchland is playing the long game, next DR... clockwerke rock smasha, zero RT rock dismantler that also boosts gems +25%, $35K

ashen yew
#

Then you can drag my body out of there since I only get one middle a day

lethal hull
#

The HW is the best loot in the gameā€¦until the strip miners show up and you are losing 60% of the value of your loot

unkempt chasm
# lethal hull Because the game was designed to punish you. Its literally working as intended. ...

Could be a good start, but I think it needs other additional factors to determine loot. I'm already assuming the "is an Ascension creature" flag would be one of them, but I'm thinking more of other hunting grounds.

(I'm at least fairly sure that players don't want the world where level 100 bandits have better loot than the various sub-100-but-tougher-than-bandits-anyway creatures of the Sanctum, the Confluence, and plane 4... but even if they did want that, I'm extraordinarily sure that GMs wouldn't, based on what happened with Kraken's Fall.)

slow zodiac
# ashen yew I thought it was very interesting when melivn went and did the loot survey and s...

Melivn normalizes kills over time in a way many of us don't. For my paladin, he makes more in the scatter than ascension grounds because he can kill many more things in the same time. So while the point is accurate that X kills in HW will yield more loot than other areas, it assumes X is roughly equal everywhere. That trade off is fine with me, I'm not suggesting it's a problem. Only raising it as part of the conversation when suggesting loot pressure making people more money over time in high end areas.

I don't have an answer either. In a general sense, the MA crew rolling through and crushing loot for a week isn't a great experience. As more people cap, that won't have to be a single MA crew, but simply players accumulating in areas.

hot quarry
#

I mean not sure if loot pressure is just some coefficient in the backend formula per area but it would be interesting to see what the ranges are... Like is OTF historical dog trash consistently at [0.2-0.3] (1.0 being base loot) and HW is between [1.2 and 1.7] varying widely based on MA groups. I def think you can make 3-5x as much loot in HW per hour vs. OTF..... that is a fact for sure.

latent fossil
urban pasture
inner socket
cobalt jetty
#

I think looties is still a thing, or theres a bug that brought it back.

willow plaza
willow plaza
#

I find it confusing that people having to avoid entire sections of the game and migrate around to avoid MA farmers is considered a "feature" and not a problem. I think that gap in perspectives is likely impassible. In a game where disruptive player behavior negatively impacting other players game experience is against policy, it boggles my mind that is the exact thing trying to be passed of as intentional game design. And, even more mindboggling to me is... I think that may actually be the intent. So, on topic with the thread: my suggestion to improve the treasure system is: find a better way, I've popped a few suggestions as potential ideas, so have others.

ashen yew
#

I mean, I don't think anything about the game is designed around the existence of large MA groups. probably nobody was laying out for 14 AOL accounts

unkempt chasm
#

https://gswiki.play.net/Treasure_system/saved_posts
Been re-reading this and there's kind of a ton of fascinating things in it. Some that stuck out to me this time...

1999:
"If [...] a critter [...] doesn't have any other critter in the few levels around it that also carries treasure, to compare itself to, then [...its] treasure level can't go down."
Creatures that don't gen as fast, can't be killed as fast, so will get a higher return. [...]player population has an [e]ffect on creature generation, so when the treasure level goes up, it attracts more players, more creatures are genned and killed, and the treasure level goes back down again. What will happen in the long run is the harder/slower to kill/slower genning creature, will prolly get a bonus of 1, where the easier/faster to kill/faster genning creature, will get a -1 to balance it out. The treasure is the bonus to players who choose not to take a path of least resistance for experience.
This system has to cause migration to those other towns now, that was the biggest reason for it, to spread player populations out, instead of having them fight crowds those selected wealthy critters in hordes.
2008:
It has long been our objective to reward players for being challenged. [...] In an effort to provide greater incentives to group hunt and to try greater challenges, several changes have been implemented regarding experience and creature loot. [The post goes on to simultaneously talk up players challenging themselves and grouping up, baffling me since doing the latter negates the former.]
2013:
[...]treasure level also highly determines item value. Sea nymphs aren't going to be generating the same feeder quality items at Ithzir. But we still make items for all levels. So something unique will have a relatively low value on a sea nymph by default.

kind steeple
#

I'd prefer if treasure loot in general had more consistent value. To my knowledge there's no deviation in regard to value of alchemy ingredients. The same item is always worth the same amount.

unkempt chasm
#

Lockpicks, moonstone cubes, small statues, quartz orbs, and empty boxes are always the same value too. Definitely plenty of fluctuating items like wands and gems, though.

The price of clothing drops seems to be partially but not entirely influenced by their description too (or maybe itā€™s the other way around), though I kind of like that aspect!

hot quarry
#

If ppl are complaining about ascension areas being poor maybe they truly aren't ready for the area because they are killing stuff too slow..... I know the Melivn reference gets thrown out but per kill HW loot is crazy good..... same with Hive... not sure about scatter or ME, obviously OTF is garbo. I pop a major loot boost and go to work and 30% of the time im getting a box which probably had 10k value in it.... thats like 20-30 boxes per 15min major boost... now if you only kill 20 mobs in 15 minutes, that is a huge barrier to loot farming...

#

I do sometimes wonder if ppls have different RNG loot tables based on the stark difference of outcomes of what i hear...... is this person on the naughty list, did you spend X simucoins get shadow boost, premies get better loot?, is he a "friend of a GM", etc..... (tinfoil hat)

This timer is annoying and too long

lethal hull
#

Ive had table leg + 2k silver and moldy bone drops in HW when the strip mining is particularly bad. Or when bad actors are leaving open voids behind to tag creatures while they run around the zone. When its not getting strip mined, HW loot is very good. ME has always been bad for an asc zone and i still think its bugged

But other players are why a valravn skins can drop to as low as 700 silver. And its by design.

hot quarry
#

Like I have never seen what you are describing in HW and I have been hunting it since it opened. Yes some boxes might be outliers and have low silver and 1 gem but on average HW boxes are like 3-5K, 1-2 gems, 1-2 other items for me. In my opinion an HW hunter should be able to leisurely hunt for 15-30 min per day and easily hit soft cap around 15m per month. Does that seem good or bad?

lethal hull
#

Ive hunted it since open too. I come nowhere near loot cap and i absolutely hunt 15-30 mins per day

All I hunt is Pit and Fajal. Its not even close to soft cap

hot quarry
#

I just don't understand how that is possible unless there is some huge difference in our kill rates (I assume as a wizard i clear much faster), hidden <tinfoil hat> factor, or you got the looties (I never group hunt)
We should do a poll for ascended ppl tomorrow and see what they think it takes to reach soft cap, 15m. Like how many actual hours per day....

Tikba.... can you get rid of this timer?

ashen yew
lethal hull
#

I never group hunt. 100% solo

I had a level 65 cleric routinely out earning my 20m capped warrior by hunting soul golems. By alot

The awful skin values and table leg boxes ive well documented here and otherwise. There was someone literally leaving voids all over Fajal so they could work/tag/kill critters remotely

hot quarry
#

yous got the permanent looties, im steering clear of ya.....

Tikbar - what are your thoughts on the case of disappearing loot? šŸ”Ž šŸ§©

lethal hull
#

It hasnt happened since before DR. But the loot values were coming down again within the last week of dr

ashen yew
#

I can in theory get rid of the timer but Iā€™m hesitant to do that and then immediately go to bed haha

ashen yew
# hot quarry yous got the permanent looties, im steering clear of ya..... Tikbar - what are ...

I think I make a lot more hunting in the hive than I did pre cap. I also think I generally make even more in the sanctum because itā€™s a lot easier and I can just blow up thirty dudes with one head of mana and then go to the locksmith pool. I think there have been a few parts of the game where I felt like I was getting a lot of loot, but I have never counted my loot that carefully. Iā€™m not sure how careful most people are counting their loot!

#

I donā€™t know that I have ever encountered these huge MA crews wiping the loot tables clean. Maybe theyā€™ll come to the hive haha

hot quarry
#

I totally forgot about sanctum, now that so many ppl moved on to ascension.... that place must be loaded even more than back in the day

ashen yew
#

The sanctum is always very very busy. Actually I have seen pretty large groups there and big spawns. I didnā€™t feel like it moved the needle much on loot. But I donā€™t count that carefully

#

I do think there are a lot of boxes there despite how crowded it always is haha

cobalt jetty
ashen yew
#

When we were talking earlier about ideal loot systems, the thought I had was mainly that loot is usually a huge pain in the butt that I hate dealing with. Thereā€™s always like piles of random crap and mage imbeddables and blue crystals and small statues that you have to go and manage and identify and sell off. Iā€™m carrying like a dozen random jewelry drops just because of how much of a hassle it is for me to actually identify what they are and whether theyā€™re worth keeping. So thatā€™s a thing I would like ā€” thereā€™s too much stuff in between ā€œjust vendor trashā€ and ā€œactually valuable enhancive.ā€ The biggest thing Iā€™d want is for it to be easier to identify when a loot drop is something I might actually care about.

hot quarry
#

I agree that killing 30 critters with 1.0 loot coefficent in sanctum > than killing 15 HW critters even if they got a 1.5 loot coefficient. Now if HW dropped jewelry that had a much higher % to be enhancives (or guaranteed higher power floor) then I would have to factor that in but sadly unlike almost every other games there is no loot quality based on lvl so I always see these newbs finding epic enhancives in random areas while i find garbage tier stuff at the pinnacle of hunting.... another sore point about the bad GS loot system in my opinion....

#

I agree with a way to better identify worthwhile drops, that being said enhancives are super rare to me so 99% of the jewelry is just silver placeholder. Maybe they need a rule that all enhancive jewelry sparkles when you look at it or something like that.

cobalt jetty
#

Just 405 it

hot quarry
#

thats what i do but most professions cannot do that or dont have the air lore

lethal hull
#

Alright. Going to do a fresh 15 min Hintwerilds loot hunt. Will report

lethal hull
#

Solo pit hunt. 7 boxes. Waiting for them to open in the pool

hot quarry
#

bro, you are cursed OR pits the suck...... should be pulling in minimum 15 boxes closer to 20!

red crystal
lethal hull
normal bloom
#

You canā€™t take away the ā€œjunkā€ from the loot system. It literally slows people down on purpose. Wyrom literally just said that he canā€™t stop the faucet the loot system has become. Itā€™s bloody hard work draining the silver as is.

#

Loot systems are a point of contention in every game, generally. Especially 30+ year old games. (I donā€™t know any other games that old šŸ˜†)

red crystal
#

If we limited the MA army farming would that change the equation? Like have a loot lock if more than 6 people are in a room for creatures? Iā€™m solo and low and just back but every game Iā€™ve played had economic issues because of MA farming far more than individual players playing (or even small groups) no matter how aggressive they hunt.

blazing elbow
#

MA still pays for accounts. They just need to be responsible and respectful of other people like other players

slow zodiac
#

MA groups don't cause unique problems by themselves. For area mechanics it's the same as an area just getting crowded by individual players. The issues that do pop up around it usually stem from other practices that scale poorly to a place of disruption when practiced across that many characters.

red crystal
#

Just a curiosity question based on other games again Iā€™m low havenā€™t seen any of this first hand in GS (the edit was a mental slip)

violet fjord
# red crystal If we limited the MA army farming would that change the equation? Like have a l...

I would say it's even more complicated than that, because the impacts of a single large group vs the same number of individuals hunting solo is very different. My army isn't generating 6x the loot as a single person. I certainly drum up the spawn rates, and my kill time per creature is pretty efficient - but also gnomes get encumbered quick. Sharing loot is part of it too. Lot's of variables is my point here.

But 80% of my loot is also funneling through a main looter. I think I hit loot cap for the first time in February, and only on my ranger. My secondary accounts had maybe a million each in contributions towards theirs.

On the other hand, if I hunted each of them individually in the same areas, it would have a similar effect on spawn rates. General kill efficiency decreases per, but greater individual loot contributions. I don't know how to even begin approaching the math on it, nor do I particularly care to track it beyond what ;ledger tells me - but I'm pretty confident that it would be overall much more efficient to do it this way.

But also there's 0% chance I could keep tabs on 6 accounts doing their own individual separate hunts either, and also ensure that I'm minimizing my disruption to any others in the area. Being a menace is the opposite of my goals, to the point where I'll happily sacrifice my overall efficiency in terms of loot/xp in order to have the smallest impact on everyone else possible.

Also loot isn't my primary goal in any case - it's all incidental as part of running bounties for exp.

normal bloom
#

Iā€™ve seen a MA farm but they were in an area that isnā€™t that loot rich. At least not compared to where I was at around the same level. I wasnā€™t able to stick around to watch because they caused massive swarms. I donā€™t think they were being a ā€œproblemā€ at all.

buoyant rain
#

MA groups don't hunt like normal characters, because you'll get a dozen plus in a single room, which puts anyone else in the area at significant risk.
I wish staff would do a better job of cracking down on huge MA groups that just ruin hunting grounds for others.

normal bloom
#

Iā€™m definitely not capped so I canā€™t speak to that. But I just ran through and kept on going. It could happen that you get hit but thatā€™s a possibility with any small hunting group.

lethal hull
#

The loot issue becomes a real problem when we are also paired with 1000$ price tags on pay event purchases. So if you want to spend silver to get bs from other players, and you need 200k bs ($500 worth), you are doing somewhere between 150-200 months of hunts to earn that in silver. Something has to give or this is not a sustainable model.

red crystal
#

Doesnā€™t OSA sailing solve this issue for those wanting large group grinding experiences? Again donā€™t own a boat but isnā€™t that like getting your own private room to hunt?

lethal hull
#

Osa is the worst loot in the game and has a huge silver buy in for a big group. Its badly inefficient at all tasks. Bad for xp. Bad for loot. Its just a ā€˜fun modeā€™. No one wanting gains will use it

#

I own 4 boats, so although i love to do osa, its also not attractive in many ways

short marten
violet fjord
# lethal hull The loot issue becomes a real problem when we are also paired with 1000$ price ...

Respectfully, I don't think the expectation is that you get pay event gear through in game silvers. The expectation is that you buy in for those purchases. That the possibility exists to leverage in game currency for those purchases in some cases is awesome, but I don't think it's a reasonable way to balance anything.

To be clear, I'm not defending the prices nor the existing loot system in this context - but I don't think that's a fair conclusion to draw. There shouldn't be any intentional lines between the loot system and pay events.

lethal hull
#

The mad rush to buy event claims clearly shows a huge % of the game views silver as a way to bridge between pay spending via cash and ig currency

normal bloom
#

You definitely canā€™t balance in the cash issue. There will always be someone that is more than willing to put up a mortgage payment worth of purchases. You canā€™t stop that and why should you. You just try to make the in game impact as small as you can

lethal hull
#

If silver gains wont come up and pay event prices wont come down, you are going to run out of people willing to spend a mortgage payment to buy a rolton bane. At this stage of the gameā€™s life, this is all connected

normal bloom
#

Youā€™re not wrong of course. If you eliminate this that or the other in the end itā€™s not going to matter (itā€™s a matter of time scale) but people will find a way to game the system. IE firecats back in the day. They had to devalue the skins to zero to stop the over hunting there. Especially once word got out, I know I went over there as soon as I got high enough level. That lasted a couple weeks šŸ˜†

lethal hull
#

Regardless of total gains, i am still firmly against intentional game designs that force the behavior of player A to reduce the rewards of player B. If Xp worked like loot pressure there would be a riot

red crystal
normal bloom
#

The GMs know the system. There has to be a reason it hasnā€™t been completely overhauled, changed, removed, etc.

lethal hull
#

I think the reason is the same as most things. If it aint broke, dont fix it

normal bloom
#

That is the thing. By whose metric it is or isnā€™t broken. Or at least not bad enough for the time sink that it would take to change it. Change to something that may end up being inherently worse.

lethal hull
#

I dont think its broke. I think it encourages and incentivizes bad behaviors. Then the staff has to chase after the bad behaviors like following an untrained dog with a wee wee pad hoping to limit the damage without having the dog bite you.

normal bloom
#

Said every game ever

red crystal
normal bloom
#

What youā€™re asking isnā€™t a new ask of the GMs. They arenā€™t dumb or unaware, why assume so? Itā€™s obviously not something that can change. Itā€™s not the devil, the game still functions.

#

Itā€™s impossible to right every wrong. Unless you want to have a game where everyone logs in for 5 minutes and you get a million silver. Then in 4 months you log in and buy 1 item for sale to everyone and thatā€™s it, thatā€™s your game. Enjoy

lethal hull
#

Id really like to know officially if kills done by soft/hard loot capped folks impact loot pressure

red crystal
normal bloom
#

Iā€™m old too lol. I get it. I think at some point weā€™re all just yelling at each other to ā€œget off my lawnā€.

#

Itā€™s an incredibly fun 30 year old text game. Give the old girl a break. The hamsters too.

lethal hull
#

I am sympathetic to this argument...until I see pay event prices that are routinely 500$+. Either we are all working together to keep the old girl afloat, or we are customers being asked to consume a product.

normal bloom
#

They could bring back the juggernaut type of sale. Show up with 3 things at a 100% random time and place and not tell a soul. Charge an amount that no one knows causing people to run back and forth to their bank and not be able to ā€œfindā€ the room the item was in and then it be sold outā€¦ as it happens I just realized this thread is called treasure improvements. Thus far Iā€™ve offered no improvements so i guess Iā€™ll leave now and bow out of defending what we already have

red crystal
hot quarry
#

We need the charm system ASAP although i feel like anything in GS it will fall short of expecations and ppl just complain more. Distract us from the bad loot.
I would love to see something that really REALLY incentives individual players to travel around and hunt different biomes over the course of a month. Maybe a person specific bonus that scales with kill diversity and bounties completed in various locales.

Monthly Hunting:
Hinterwild kills: 203/10,000
Hinterwild Tasks: 7/500 (Bonus not achieved.... +5% experience in non-HW areas until end of month)
OTF kills: 53,200/10,000 (Bonus achieved.....+10% loot in non-OTF areas until end of month)

willow plaza
# hot quarry If ppl are complaining about ascension areas being poor maybe they truly aren't ...

Myharl hunts the Hinterwilds exclusively. There's a lot of reasons for that, but the biggest part is leaning into RP and the fact I just really love the aesthetic of the place. I've hunted a lot of bandits over the years as well, but the loot-ban on those is an entirely different topic and I don't even take into consideration with loot generation to begin with. It takes him on average 2 minutes to fill his mind. On average I hunt probably 10 times per day. I typically try to snag the bonus LTE and burn through any LTE boosts each day, and on days I have Mind Clearers, I'll pop those in the field as well. The loot I pull is whatever is generated in those runs. When I have a Loot Boost, I pop them and will hunt out the whole 15 minutes. His kill rate is, estimating, 90-100/15 minutes. He is also a ascended skinner. He never hits loot cap. For me, that feels like a lot of hunting. The majority of folks I know hunt a lot less than Myharl even. I think that's your average GS player, and Wyrom's comments about silver generation over the past few years support that assumption. My filled pelt sack generate 30-50k during long events that pull farmers for one reason or the other, when the MA groups are strip mining that drops to about 5-10k. It's a notably consistent occurrence. Likewise I see an abundance of 1-2k boxes (often with silvers only, or "junk" boxes -- and lockpicks, which for whatever reason generate en masse in the Hinterwilds boxes) when the MA groups are active, but that skyrockets to 10k+ boxes often with several gems when they are not. Whatever the logic/design behind that is, it comes down to: feels bad. Part of that is bad timing, sure, but I shouldn't be penalized simply because another player has more time to invest (or mindlessly script hunts). When this thread was started it was about making the treasure system feel more rewarding and engaging... I have tons of ideas, but most of that is predicated on: "I'd like to actually have some loot, please." šŸ˜„

hot quarry
#

I must not be running into these same groups as I rarely see terrible HW boxes but I mainly hunt OTF so I am only collecting 15 minutes of HW boxes per day. On my alts that continue to hunt OTF while I do my 15 minute HW runs.... I would say they end the month with about 1/3 to 1/2 as much lootcap so basically my main who only dips his toe into HW 15 min max per day is out earning my alts by 2-3x with only ~8 hours of HW in a month. This is anecdotal based on "Bank Account" tracking and me wondering why my alts make jackshit farming OTF all month.....

Again, I am not sure why my experience is different but the fact I can leisurely hit soft cap, 15m, on 15-20 minutes per day in HW is what I would expect from rewarding players who hunt a challenging environment

placid vortex
#

Without seeing things in action, I have confirmed that "looties" is not in the code anymore. It was completely reverted. I did dig into two claims of this last year and it was some confirmation bias, but we tried it with a loot capped person with a group of 4 others no where near loot cap. But that was only two examples. I wouldn't hit that with a stamp of approval based solely on that, I'm just not seeing it happen. And it's not in the code. Maybe something else is happening that is not exactly "looties."

#

Auchand and I started working on a document about treasure. A lot issues stated in here are things we agree with. Some stuff I feel pretty strongly about that I think GS does poorly, but I think the solutions would not be well received. We've all been over this a bunch. All these treasure, loot, silver, etc topics are rehashed over and over again.

buoyant rain
#

So.... I can't compete with this. How does staff consider the impact a huge MA group has on other customers? What recourse do we have? This becomes a daily occurence and makes the area unhuntable for anyone else.

Also here: Char1 (prone), Char2 (rooted), Char3, Char4 (rooted), Char5 (rooted), Char6, Char7 (rooted), Char8 (rooted), the body of Char9 (prone), Char10, the body of Char11 (prone), Char12, Char13 (rooted), the body of Char14 (prone)```
placid vortex
# buoyant rain So.... I can't compete with this. How does staff consider the impact a huge MA...

I'll bring this up at a meeting with Simutronics later today. I think it's more a POLICY decision on POLICY 3 that needs a ruling. It's not in POLICY currently so it's hard for the GameMasters to do much here since typically everyone is a subscriber. But we've been seeing a rise of F2P account abuse (running F2P armies) which we are going to be putting a stop to soon. Might not solve this specific situation.

hot quarry
buoyant rain
hot quarry
#

I would love to see an F2P army of lords try to overrun the Rift, 30 strong, hopped up on invoker drugs, strength in numbers....

lethal hull
violet fjord
# lethal hull This is the same problem me and some others see there routinely. Same exact grou...

I know the above example isn't me, and this message isn't targeted at you - it just happens to be a decent reference point for my open note message; As the operator of a fairly small MA squad of 6, If you (general you) find my gnome army presence disruptive at any point, please know I'm extremely open to adjusting my tactics/location/etc to ameliorate. While I mostly play GS as a "solo" game, I go to great lengths to not be problematic when it comes to this playstyle, and am sensitive to mitigating my outward footprint. I want everyone else that happens to share my game space to be able to enjoy their play time, especially if it's limited. DM me, send me a thought/whisper/chat, let me know what's up - I don't hunt AFK so I'll see it, but I do also generate a LOT of screen scroll so some things can get lost in immediate room context.

Sorry for the semi-off topic nature, but MA was brought up a few times and I just wanted to clarify my stance on my participation in that playstyle ecosystem.

inner socket
# ashen yew I donā€™t know that I have ever encountered these huge MA crews wiping the loot ta...

I don't know how you've missed them in the sanctum. Because we play around the same time in the evenings and I have experienced them a lot of the time. Mainly, when you're seeing Stormy dying on repeat? That's what is happening. grumpyfrog2

And also, I have experienced the loot pushdown there repeatedly when my hunting partner hits loot cap. It's beyond obvious when it happens, boxes stop dropping and I'm getting like a single gem if that per looted mob.

hot quarry
#

Maybe the looties are hiding behind/have merged with the Green Death..... secretly spreading right under Wyrom's nose

normal bloom
#

Oh no, now youā€™ve gone and done it. I feel another ā€œgreen deathā€ coming now. šŸ˜†

carmine garnet
#

Maybe this time it can be pink death!

coarse rampart
normal bloom
#

Theyā€™re short, youā€™ve probably just missed them

hot quarry
#

Since there are a couple ascended hunters in this thread right now, Am I the only one who thinks you can reach soft cap, 15m, relatively easily in HW by hunting 15-20 minutes per day or am I crazy?

carmine garnet
#

I understand strength in numbers, but 14 definitely causes problems for other players. The trouble is, how to figure out if it's just like... one player? or maybe the Drakes out for thier hunt. The only way I can think of to tell is to put some sort of back end IP check.

inner socket
slow zodiac
coarse rampart
hot quarry
#

I believe you on the first point, not on the second! No way any good enhancives drop! system broken, needs fixing.

coarse rampart
#

I havenā€™t needed to touch the maj loot boosts due to the modifiers in the pits. I have 401 major loot boosts stockpiled.

hot quarry
#

Know what I found, "a slender bronze spyglass etched with undulating waves".... seems like a custom made but not even any fluff scripts and not a pirate prop.... šŸ˜­ (still cool)

carmine garnet
#

Fancy!

low ivy
#

I know that some organizations, whether they're official CHEs/MHOs or just groups of friends, have adjusted how they hunt in public areas including reducing their group size for recurring events (ie, general hunting grounds, reim, etc, where anyone can wander across them as opposed to OSA). sometimes this has been proactive in response to other players reaching out to them; other times staff have asked groups to change tactics. if this is becoming a problem (again? or did it just not go away? or are there new people doing this?) then I sincerely hope that staff do step in as in the past if players are causing the game to be unplayable for others in these public hunting areas.

placid vortex
#

Ultimately, the game needs group size limitations. It's a common thing in many MMOs. There needs to be a normal group size limit of 4 or so for normal hunting, something with raid/group play like Reim or OSA, and then something for stationary groups for spellups and such. The game buckles under large groups, as well as takes some of the balance away. I know the argument is that people pay to be able to do this and I know the company is small and doesn't want to say no to revenue. That's kind of how we got stuck in a lot the situation we're in.

frosty gate
placid vortex
#

Yeah, at that's what will happen, but it will likely result in a lot of POLICY 18 busts when you have to pay attention to 4 group leaders vs 1.

#

I've done what I can on silver valuation. We are moving the needle on silver generation now.

jaunty gate
placid vortex
#

Something new.

hot quarry
#

Has the total silver hoard gone down or up since the last DR?

inner socket
#

Group size limitation would be an interesting concept, though I think 4 is a very small number (when thinking about things like Gryphons and Drakes hunts). It may be a really interesting way to address invasions, too. No more Cryblobs?! What will we do.

Also, I'm not sure how it will work but my concern, as a player who literally has 1.5-2 hours on average a day to play and I don't spend all of that hunting, is that the silver generation 'fix' will further punish players like me.

brave turtle
#

Loot cap isnā€™t enough. A lot of players are farmers now even if it isnā€™t their goal. The amount of silver generated each month is still probably insanely high. Canā€™t drain it all, at some point the faucet needs to be closed a bit

placid vortex
#

I think a lot gets solved with more interesting treasure vs straight silver.

#

Locksmith pool, while is a great concept, was not really envisioned on what it would do to the game.

#

All treasure generated is pretty much out there. And planning on 80% of treasure left behind is TERRIBLE game design, that was the case until the locksmith pool. NPC is also factored into that 80% too.

brave turtle
placid vortex
#

Yeah, there needs to be a drain. But then it's going to be like a Dominos' driver losing their tip because of the service fee.

brave turtle
#

If people donā€™t want to pay the pool fee let them work with a live rogue. We get the convenience of the townsmith without paying for it currently

placid vortex
#

Long live the East Tower.

hot quarry
#

Well atleast Kilron is going his part by refusing to buy my torn red ribbon, can you imagine the all the container/dress silvers he deflected from the economy!

brave turtle
#

Loot scripts making it so every hunter picks up every wand every box every skin etc probably has a crazy ripple effect on silver generation vs the manual days. And that is all true even for a 100% attentive at the keyboard hunter.

hot quarry
#

I mean they could make all those acilliary items permanently non-sellable to force their use i guess. Don't like this wand, fine don't use it and leave it on the ground for someone who does.....

brave turtle
#

I still think thereā€™s room for silver drains people would find useful as an ongoing thing, to fill in the gaps between event boxes

hot quarry
lethal hull
ruby pumice
normal bloom
ashen yew
carmine garnet
#

My picker is far from rich. Scarabs I get maybe 1 or 2 per cycle, which is 5 minutes. 2.5k to 6k? so 72k per hour on the outside.

jaunty gate
#

The scarab thing is a bit of a meme right now, I don't think Zhagen's comment was serious.

carmine garnet
#

Can I just say, I dislike that meme immensely. šŸ˜„

lethal hull
brave turtle
#

I miss divergence because it meant Atoll was way less crowded.

lethal hull
hot quarry
#

I wonder if there is a large correlation between the players who make under 1mil hunting per month and those that don't even bother much at all with their service resources (if their profession has them) Most players should be getting minimum 2mil per week income from that alone. If they don't do that either then they a doublely behind the group of players that farm loot and sell services...

willow plaza
# brave turtle The pool needs a fee on it. I was amazed it didnā€™t have one when it came out. We...

I agree with this. I like the locksmith pool because it's a convenience. I can just drop off my stuff, and come back later whenever I want. I like that it pushes that service to player characters rather than an NPC. I never used to pass up boxes, but it used to be a hassle. I wouldn't even blink at paying for the service.... especially if/when the potential for interesting non-silver/gem loot is more prevalent.

willow plaza
hot quarry
#

B R E A K A G E......"the action of breaking something, or the fact of being broken"

bright zenith
#

All the new services have breakage. People seem to love it so long as you donā€™t actually call it breakage

hot quarry
#

My monk tattoo broke!

willow plaza
inner socket
# hot quarry I wonder if there is a large correlation between the players who make under 1mil...

Hi, you're talking to me here. I'm that player. Stormy is a bard, so the service is still new. She's sold 'some' but I'm not super efficient in this area (because she's a TWC bard, to boot, and the training requirements for the service penalize non-pures IMHO.)

I am doubley behind. I'm triple behind those who run huge MA groups, and sell services with that group as well.

This is why my fear is that anything that comes out will inordinately punish me, and push that gap even further.

red crystal
gaunt ridge
inner socket
#

Also..HIGH on my wish list for GS (related to treasure in a way) is for there to be NO third person messaging in the pawnshops. I don't script sell, and I would like to throw myself out the freaking window when I'm trying to see what's in my containers and someone comes in and locks me in screen scroll for 45 seconds...even better when it's a team of them. grumpyfrog2

@gaunt ridge Feel that. At 18.8 mil exp, with a monocle and other enhansives (not many other but a few) I still cannot manage a L5 without suffusing my life away. Why? Because she's not a pure, and TPs are already a serious issue for her--but hey let's forget about everything but MMC/EMC for the rest of my natural life right? grumpyfrog

blazing elbow
#

Yes, please. Stop making me see other people sell. I've never seen a more useless amount of output in my life

ashen yew
#

the worst thing in the game is actually when you run a deeds script and it appraises the 112 gems you have in your bag while other people are moving through the gemshop

lethal hull
unkempt chasm
# placid vortex Without seeing things in action, I have confirmed that "looties" is not in the c...

Still catching up with the rest, but would venture a guess if people are still seeing/suspecting something...

Does a loot capped character affect the loot of a non-loot capped character (meaning the non-capped character is the one looting) proportionally to A) their contributions in combat and B) how affected they are by loot cap?

Hypothetical:
Character A and B hunt together. A is far enough into soft cap to be down to 50% gains while B is nowhere near soft cap. They kill two creatures, one of which A contributes 90% of the combat effort toward and the other of which B contributes 90% of the combat effort toward. ("Contributes" is defined here in the same way it's defined for purposes of who gets how much exp, whatever that is behind the scenes.) B loots both creatures. Which does B get:

  1. 100% baseline loot on both
  2. 100% baseline loot on the one B mostly killed, but 50% baseline loot on the one their friend mostly killed
  3. 95% baseline loot on the one B mostly killed, but 45% baseline loot on the one A mostly killed (these numbers are 100% - [loot capped character's penalty * percentage of combat contribution])
  4. 95% baseline loot on the one B mostly killed, but 55% baseline loot on the one A mostly killed (these numbers are the sum of each calculation of [character's loot baseline * percentage of combat contribution])
  5. Something else entirely

(The old "looties" would have been 50% baseline loot on both, which I do agree isn't the case anymore from my observations.)

lethal hull
#

To add to what Leafiara is asking...when a soft/hard loot capped character kills a critter, does it push down the loot pressure in the area or is that kill invisible to the system?

lime hatch
# brave turtle If people donā€™t want to pay the pool fee let them work with a live rogue. We get...

I love this idea...people are complaining about "live picking" being dead b/c of the pool...I wouldn't mind a fee on the pool to let you choose between convenience/speed and maximizing silvers.

From the perspective of someone who picks boxes at the pool, I also wouldn't mind if a small portion of my "tip" were the fee, as I pick for the exp on a supernode and consider the silvers I earn just a little icing on the cake...though I know that's unpopular with some...probably more palatable once rogues have a real service of their own to sell.

unkempt chasm
lime hatch
#

you know what would be funny...make the tax the scarabs. When you work the pool and disarm a scarab, the pool keeps it lol

flint wharf
# unkempt chasm Still catching up with the rest, but would venture a guess if people are still s...

Iā€™m not sure if this answers your question, But itā€™s some relevant/anecdotal information at least.

i hunt a team of 5, and hereā€™s what Iā€™ve witnessed over the last 6+ months in Moonsedge.

Basically one character loots per week, and typically hits about 25-30m through the course of 7 days. By the end of the week, their loot spigot is usually close to dead (talking like 3-5 boxes in a 15-20 min hunt).

On Monday, when i switch to character B, itā€™s back to 20 boxes on the same time period.

22 days into the month, when i switch to the 4th character, it has the same effect.

So with 3 characters at soft or close to hard cap, the 4th character is raking in the same loot as day 1, character 1 on the 5 man team.

(Only 4 are looters because the 5th slot is a rogue who uses mug all month long for the group.)

ashen yew
#

I would point out that players who MA to hunt can probably just MA to pick their own boxes lol

inner socket
flint wharf
unkempt chasm
ashen yew
#

see we need to bring back looties if we really want to make a dent

flint wharf
inner socket
# flint wharf I do

I would be interested in data where the leader is who has hit loot cap and a non cp hitting looter. That's my situation and it's noticeable.

gaunt ridge
# carmine garnet My picker is far from rich. Scarabs I get maybe 1 or 2 per cycle, which is 5 min...

I ran a test when the pool tips were high from a wave of timeouts and I don't think I could break more than 150k in an hour with the pool having thousands of boxes in it, using only vaalin lockpicks and boost long clears.. huntings a much better return and requires much less effort (at least in HW, I don't know what level your rogue is. I didn't even think you still played your rogue until I saw her picking a month or two ago!)

unkempt chasm
placid vortex
#

Yes, all characters, but it becomes a little more to juggle is what I'm guessing.

unkempt chasm
# gaunt ridge I ran a test when the pool tips were high from a wave of timeouts and I don't th...

Pool tips are still high now. After the recent bust, my locksmith pool earnings jumped to about 250% what they were and that hasn't changed in a few months since. [Edit: Actually, I'm even understating the boost because they're 250% of what they were on a good day before, but the pool used to run out of boxes in the last 3-7 days of the month. Now it doesn't.]

Now, yes, as I always mention, hunting generates more silvers faster when sheer time in-game is a major factor. Hunting also asks things of you like gear investment, though. The pool is very plug and play to the point you could get away with literally never doing anything else.

ashen yew
#

honestly I think if the goal is to reduce multi-account playing you probably just need to set some kind of explicit limit on multi-account playing

hot quarry
#

Only 1 pure per group, rogues cannot be paired with clerics, dark elves can only group with other dark elves....

gaunt ridge
#

I know when some MA groups go through getting their bounties I have to sit there and wait for the tornado to pass through before I can see the output of my commands šŸ˜† it was crazy having a younger character hunting in some of those areas that are mostly used by bandit hunters. Running into rooms with 10-20 creatures that don't get culled because they're not bandits.

placid vortex
#

To answer about loot cap, when a creature is looted, a check is performed to first get the list of people who contributed to the kill. This doesn't need to be a group, just anyone who is considered to contribute by the system, which is typically a form of creature engagement. It checks if you have a penalty. If Moe, Larry, and Curly are all hunting and each do damage to a creature, each are evaluated as separate people. The grouping mechanic is commented out in the code.

The loot pressure can be pushed down by single groups though, especially if you're dealing with a group that is loot capped. That means they are making a lot of loot in that area, creating a lot of pressure.

bright zenith
#

I think that confirms that the open voids from a loot capped character screws it up for everyone else in the area

short marten
#

If this treasure thread has turned into the cap MA groups thread at X, then I hope it's done with consideration to group events that are run. Maxing group size in a game usually requires evaluation of corresponding class skills.

placid vortex
placid vortex
#

And that person will take away from your loot, even if not in the room.

#

Because the system doesn't know you're grouped or not, just that something ticks a damage point or did something to knock them down.

#

Though maybe you're not saying the opposite.

#

I just talked myself in a circle I see.

#

Ban sorcerers.

ashen yew
#

I think my genuine feeling is some kind of cap on group size will affect a huge number of player-driven activities (like nearly every player event Iā€™ve ever been, and many GM events, involved people moving around and engaging in combat as groups of like 20) and do basically nothing to the multi accounters who are already obligated by policy to view and respond on every screen

jaunty gate
#

My interpretation of Ragz's question is whether a loot capped character's contribution to loot pressure is based on the amount of loot the character actually generates (that is, an amount that respects the fact that the character is loot capped) or the amount of loot the character would generate if they weren't loot capped.

I could easily be misinterpreting.

blazing elbow
#

Which is why I generally think it a moot point. It makes more sense to just put eyes on people in massive disruptive groups in general. A group of 2-3 isnt the same as a clob of 10+ running around in thurfel's cellar exploiting loot mechanics to sell silvers at a meager profit.

placid vortex
# ashen yew I think my genuine feeling is some kind of cap on group size will affect a huge ...

The biggest problem is the game just wasn't designed around big groups hunting together. It's tough. Groups sitting still like the old ghoul master groups or tree chopping in a small area were okay, but they were fleeting points in your progression that you'd be out of soon enough. A 25-person Reim group broke the game in many way. Room window was destructive, messaging was an issue, it brought the game to its knees for a bit there.

#

But what is big? What size should we be looking at? Should we try to solve this another way? I don't have the answers.

jaunty gate
#

Clearly the answer is to port the GS engine to rust so it runs faster.

placid vortex
#

Need to figure them out. But part of it starts with the original topic here and that's making treasure more interesting that doesn't require strip mining for loot.

jaunty gate
placid vortex
#

True. But I think part of the problem with it feeling disruptive is creature spawn distribution and loot feeling barren (at cap).

flint wharf
#

Okay - just throwing an idea out there...
What if..... ther'es a way to limit the # of recognized people in a group? So even if there's a group of 70, it will only ever recognize 5 in an area that's present from a group for creature generation, similarly, no matter how many people hit a creature, is there a way to cap it so it can only recognize up to 5 unique characters? (or 4, or whatever magic number is deemed )

Then if somene wants to roll with a group of 15, that's fine, but it won't spawn or generate loot in a way that's nearly as disruptive?
*Something that recognizes groups different from individuals.

unkempt chasm
# placid vortex And that person will take away from your loot, even if not in the room.

Okay, so what people are seeing has nothing to do with grouping directly (anymore), but characters who are penalized affect the loot of other characters if they contribute in combat and it just so happens that the people most noticing these effects are grouped.

And, as Ragz said, the sorcerer leaving open voids can ruin things for everyone. Got it. āœ…

blazing elbow
# placid vortex But what is big? What size should we be looking at? Should we try to solve thi...

It's not super hard to track large, regular, sales of currency. And that would remove alot of the incentive in general. It is easy enough to track anything over X silvers and look at frequency of said transactions - then put eyes on that particular person when they break some internal metric that puts them on the radar.

You dont have to manually track every single person with large transactions, just the ones with a pattern of it and create a rule set that discourages said transactions. Gear sales and silver sales are very different animals in general.

ashen yew
#

I think itā€™s pretty funny that tagging creatures can create problems for other players. I tag things all the time and then run away because I donā€™t want to die! Itā€™s a good thing I am never anywhere near cap

placid vortex
#

The open voids can also help. It's actually an interesting situation the more I look at the code.

violet fjord
latent fossil
#

Any chance RPAs can award box founds and legendaries? šŸ˜„

placid vortex
#

GS wants to benefit grouping up.

unkempt chasm
ashen yew
#

I would be surprised if there isnā€™t already a log that tracks large deposits and withdrawals and transfers of silvers honestly

#

Itā€™s probably useless haha

#

So many service purchases!

placid vortex
#

The game logs all silver transactions.

#

Hundreds of millions of silvers change hands every day. It's a lot crazier than you think.

#

Well, let's say ALMOST every day.

unkempt chasm
manic fossil
#

is leafiara laundering the most silvers?

unkempt chasm
#

I mostly hoard and wait for auctions. I did flip like 400m into bloodscrip during Duskruin, though, then flipped 560k bloodscrip back into silver as it was ending.

Edit: That's not even counting event boxes, in which case I probably flipped like another 200-300m into bloodscrip.

short marten
#

I think I'd struggle to propose solutions until I have a better understanding of what the target experience is from both a combat and loot perspective. How do those objectives currently align with the player base? Not just policy regulations and some of the edge cases that have been discussed. Which are also important.

placid vortex
#

The Duskruin silver pass offs were pretty intense. Wealth redistribution was some of the highest I've seen in a long time.

unkempt chasm
flint wharf
# unkempt chasm I appreciate and respect the creativity in this solution. I think it would have...

I think to Wyrom's point earlier though - If groups were split into multiple within the same area, it will likely lead to a lot more AFK penalties.
I run 5, and I capped myself at 5, because i genuinely was going cross eyed keeping up with anymore screens than that. 4 is my happiest spot, but 5 is totally doable.

I think the moment groups get split up, it's actually really hard to follow what's going on. Especially if you have multiple groups of 5. We're talking Beautiful mind stuff to follow it all at that point.
Maybe others out there can do it! just not me, hehe.

ashen yew
#

You mobilized the bourgeoisie!

flint wharf
brave turtle
#

I am at 3 presently but going back to 2 after the golden scrolls expire. More than 2 is insanely stressful to me, but 1 gets boring.

ashen yew
#

Proof that game wide goals can work. Have a big bin with a meter on it and when the meter fills up with silver we all get 2x xp for a month

placid vortex
brave turtle
#

Anyone running 13 accounts nearly for sure has written utilities that squelch all game text it's seen before and then push a notification to the user when something unusual comes up. I like to think they'd get popped by a script check but it seems doubtful

flint wharf
unkempt chasm
#

If they have those utilities, how do they end up with a whole dead army in the Scatter? Unless they disconnected, I guess. Or unless their utilities don't actually look for their characters dying.

ashen yew
#

I mean only like three of those guys were dead haha

placid vortex
#

Let's be real, we're all dead inside.

blazing elbow
#

I dont know that breaking a group up would lead to anything different. It's only easier to run as a group to prevent unintended slowdowns due to death. People farming a zone to death, causing spawns beyond what anyone can handle and causing so much screen scroll the game lags are actual problems though

flint wharf
#

I mean... i've had a yard sale (everyone died) in Moonsedge before, being behind the wheel, so I'm not gonna knock anyone on that front šŸ˜†* (Maybe i'm just bad at the game)*

floral storm
#

also to toss out more info about an MA group running around with 13 accounts in the Scatter. They spawned 36 creatures in one room and caused my client to lag out/ crash completely. This happens quite a bit up there these days now

placid vortex
#

And on that note, just remember, your bones are wet.

ashen yew
#

I think the reality is that some number (I wonā€™t speculate as to its size) of players just think MA over some threshold (which there is probably not agreement on either) is disruptive behavior in itself and they want it stopped

floral storm
#

the fans kicked in so hard on my computer I thought it was going to hover. Baldur's Gate 3 doesn't even do that to my computer. šŸ¤£

ashen yew
#

The AFK scripting stuff is the policy angle that seems to lead in the direction they want but really the goal is just ā€œthey should have fewer accountsā€

hot quarry
#

So no groups over X but house leaders can get a special pass? Request for group of 10.... DENIED

blazing elbow
placid vortex
ashen yew
violet fjord
ashen yew
#

A normal thing players do! But in the context of a large number of accounts people view it as disruptive in itself

blazing elbow
#

If your actions are causing an entire zone to be uninhabitable - it doesnt matter what flag your are ostensibly operating under. You are being disruptive

ashen yew
#

Iā€™m not saying they are wrong to do so, I just think we must identify the actual desire to address it

floral storm
#

currently have 32gbs but everything else was running fine, just that client window locked up completely. Any time I come across this MA group up there it happens. I've never had that kind of problem in REIM with big groups. I think it's mostly the amount of creatures they spawn

violet fjord
#

lol - he was joking. "Downloading ram" is the oldest hack in the book

flint wharf
# violet fjord I think my only full squad wipe was when the HYPER MEGA JUICED WYRM OF DOOM was ...

I think i've done it twice, and both were just complete bonehead reactions from myself.... putzing around trying to sanct the room and do different things after one guy died.... instead of just killing critters and or fogging.

I have also had disconnects, but usually i come running to the Moonsedge folder and crying for someone to fog my group back. I'm not counting that. My internet is prone to 5 minute outages like once a day (dont get me started on that). Usually around this time.

floral storm
#

hahah... my mind read that differently. Just saw the downloading part now. bah... you'd think I didn't play a text based game. hahaha

ashen yew
#

I will say again that, completely apart from KST being an event where the dominant strategy is to stand in a group of 30 hunting, almost every player run or GM run event I have ever been to has involved groups of 10 or more moving from room to room

#

I almost said ā€œliterally everyā€ but actually when we go to the peacock court we all have to get there on our own haha

blazing elbow
#

But KST isn't held in the rift 18-20h a day

ashen yew
#

Iā€™m not saying it is! I am responding to the idea of game wide group size limits and how they will affect play

placid vortex
#

I have to step away for a bit. But big takeaway here from me. We are trying to address the treasure system as whole. Goal is to make it more interesting while trying to control the faucet a bit better on silver generation. We've done a lot on drains, and we can still make more drains. We have plans to make more drains. It's just we do have to get things under control on both ends of it. Looties, I'll have someone smarter than me look, but I'm not seeing it. Contributions to creatures is the biggest factor. Loot cap is individual. But AoE might be both helping and hindering some people. Not super helpful info. Talk to you all later.

hot quarry
#

They could limit normal ppl group sizes and have house or official group sizes be higher
Twilight Hall Official Group Leader role

lethal hull
violet fjord
ashen yew
floral storm
#

is it possible to do a squish on loot values? Reduce the value of everything by 75 percent?

unkempt chasm
#

[Edit: meant this to be a reply to Tikba just backing up her point.]

Yeah, the Drakes Vanguard was mentioned earlier and has an hour-long hunt every day where it's usually 15-30 characters rolling into an area. Now, in that case it's all separate players and not any MAing, but it could have the same effect on a solo character.

They do mostly head to lower end hunting grounds since it has to be doable for everyone in the group, though, and where we go varies wildly. More people in here would probably be aware of these hunts if the Drakes went to capped areas regularly.

blazing elbow
#

But it's also scheduled and limited in scope. Also, everyone is free to join.

violet fjord
# ashen yew MACROS

Having them and remembering the right one in the moment are not the same thing! šŸ˜† (also yes)

hot quarry
latent fossil
#

guess that's a no on RPA loot, too bad. Think of the possibilities!

unkempt chasm
#

This is tangential, but just to be clear, I've gotten a group of 7 totally wiped in the Hinterwilds before too, so I wasn't trying to knock anyone. šŸ˜‚ It ultimately drove me to buy a lot more low end sancts for armor since sheer fear kicked off the death spiral.

hot quarry
#

If suddenly everyone was making 50mil per month how fast before parity with the silver hoarders? 50K uncut diamonds!

ashen yew
#

personally I have one account. I have been repeatedly told by totally unrelated individuals that having a second account is the most beneficial and profitable purchase I could make in gemstone haha. so that's an analysis to consider that players have made

blazing elbow
#

They aren't wrong

floral storm
#

playing more than 1 account can be fun at times. For me it's fun for a couple of weeks then I'm like ugh this is too much work. But yeah it's the biggest benefit you could ever get

lethal hull
#

Feels pretty miserable to know now that not only was my loot being ruined in HW because some careless jerk decided it was their right to leave voids everywhere to speed their afk nonsense, but that reporting it and asking for help here on discord from staff yielded no change

floral storm
#

you spawn bandits faster, but at times doing alt tab macro can be fun but it can be a big risk and easy to get overwhelmed and make mistakes.

hot quarry
ashen yew
#

I favor a 90% cut in all loot coupled with lumnis loot boost. I will moderate the thread where people react to this feature being implemented

flint wharf
hot quarry
ashen yew
#

those accounts will be banned

#

vote for me

opal canopy
floral storm
# placid vortex I've done what I can on silver valuation. We are moving the needle on silver ge...

I feel like the Event boxes for silvers was an amazing idea and seems to have had a massive impact on draining silvers. I also thought it was a cool idea to bring back things like the lantern charm to sell in event boxes. Fun little toys from the past are always great to collect.

I also love the new charm that picks up silvers. That's cut down RT quite a bit for loot silvers from boxes and stuff. Pretty neat. Can't wait to see what this Golem does (the battlevault was another great idea that pulled me into DR when I didn't plan to do it).

unkempt chasm
flint wharf
floral storm
#

does the analyze tell you it belongs to that account when you put it on that character?

#

I guess the other option is to toss some silvers on the ground and see which one works on each character.

flint wharf
lethal hull
#

Also seems we can confirm that loot capped characters are not excluded from the effect of their kills pushing down loot for others. So when a loot capped group shows up to make xp for half the month, they still remove loot others might have earned. Lovely.

unkempt chasm
# floral storm I feel like the Event boxes for silvers was an amazing idea and seems to have ha...

Inside a crystallized silvery fossil charm are a swarm of velvety blue-limned butterflies awaiting to serve you. They have been summoned 10,004 times and gathered 24,937,159 silvers over their lifetime. They have been commanded 10,004 times and retrieved 24,937,159 silvers since the last time they were confused. The charm was last used 39,441 seconds ago.
Even assuming each use only saved me 1 second on average, the charm has spared me 2.78 hours of RT. šŸŽ‰

flint wharf
# 
>wear charm
The silvery fossil charm doesn't belong to you.
>analyze charm
You analyze your silvery fossil charm and sense that the creator has provided the following information:

The silvery fossil charm doesn't belong to you.

This is a small charm-like item that houses a swarm of insects.  When rubbed, it will seek out silver on the ground in the room you use it in.  When pointed at an open container, it will seek out silver inside of it.  If the silvers weren't dropped by someone, it will gather them up and add them directly to you.  The larger the sum, the longer it can take, but anything under 100,000 silver will not take any time at all.

The bugs inside can be changed out with a gemmed bug, commonly called a "bugs-on-parade" item.  A talented merchant could also alter the bug inside, but this may be a very uncommon service.  You can LOOK at the charm to see a bunch of useful information.

The charm will track both lifetime uses and a resettable record each time it is used.  If you wish to reset it at any time, BREAK charm and it will bring the resettable record's values back to zero.

The charm reacts to WEAR, REMOVE, RUB, POINT, BREAK, HOLD, and SHAKE.  It can be freely altered but should remain charm-like.```
floral storm
# unkempt chasm ```Inside a crystallized silvery fossil charm are a swarm of velvety blue-limned...

wow your bugs are picking up much better coin than me. hah

Inside a crystallized silvery fossil charm are a swarm of rime-frosted celestial blue scarabs awaiting to serve you.  They have been summoned 11,407 times and gathered 6,080,552 silvers over their lifetime.  They have been commanded 11,401 times and retrieved 6,069,412 silvers since the last time they were confused.  The charm was last used 1,553 seconds ago.
hot quarry
#

They have been commanded 19,350 times and retrieved 16,293,569 silvers........ that OTF life, more pulls less silvers

unkempt chasm
# lethal hull Also seems we can confirm that loot capped characters are not excluded from the ...

A brutal lesson in unintended consequences. Many people liked the loot cap idea a lot more before they found out it indirectly affected them too.

(I'm absolutely including myself in this. I think I was literally one of the first three people cheering for the loot cap during its initial announcement in the old forums, because I mostly hunt bandits anyway (especially back then since Hinterwilds didn't exist) and figured it wouldn't do anything to me. Then we found out how it affected groups (at the time) and we were off to the races with concerns and questions...)

ashen yew
#

if you hunt in very dangerous areas capped characters will presumably leave once they're capped to get experience in safer places!

lethal hull
#

Id like a in game memo what time of the month im allowed to play. Rediculous system.

unkempt chasm
#

I admire your (Tikba's) dedication to being the one person here vouching for the benefits of loot pressure. šŸ˜„

hot quarry
#

Also, would it really be that bad for each character to be able to see their own current lootcap?

lethal hull
ashen yew
#

I have spent the majority of my playtime deliberately doing bounties in unpopular areas to benefit from loot pressure and I am still doing that haha

lime hatch
#

I also deliberately hunt in the least-populated places I can find (my capped characters, at least)...partially b/c the loot is better...and because it's generally more of a challenge.

lethal hull
#

Im genuinely bothered by this. Im gonna take a discord break. Im glad we spent 2 years worrying about loot cap. Feels great.

lime hatch
#

and when the dude is in the Scatter making things insane there I actually find it quite fun. I have to be FAR more careful, PEER before every movement, and work hard to not get overwhelmed...but it's a fun change up. Now that's partially b/c I am running a cleric/wiz combo that can cleanup with AoE pretty well...but those vvrael destroyers can get nasty quick. I imagine for a solo hunter that becomes rather untenable unless they're quite uber. I assume that's the only way Vindicate dies lol

hot quarry
#

how can wizards kill destoryahs?

opal canopy
#

You can't.

lime hatch
#

you wipe the room of everything else and move on before there are too many

hot quarry
#

Are they susceptible to cheaty spellbound wands or like hand pylons?

unkempt chasm
slow zodiac
lime hatch
#

my B team in the scatter (the cleric/wiz combo) are only like 10m exp but the wizard is far more survivable than the cleric, which is funny since it's not like that anywhere else. The wiz just has much more DS, honestly.

opal canopy
#

There were talks, months/years back, about changing total spell immunity on vvrael and greater constructs to something reasonable, like ignoring the first hit against them, but they never went anywhere. If only..

willow plaza
#

I really don't think trying to thwart large MA groups is going to be realistic. That sort of monitoring and enforcement would require a more than significant investment of resources that are honestly better spent doing constructive and creative things to keep the game fun and engaging. I honestly feel like a solution to "fix the problem" is going to be in finding a way to mitigate their impact. Sure, you could limit groups to 4-5 people and give CHE/MHO some sort of redeemable pass allowing for larger groups for a period, but that's creating something more restrictive across the board rather than less restrictive. It just flips the coin. I don't know, maybe the solution to narrow the "gap" is something as simple as kicking off with a loot bonus to "dial up" generation for those who don't play much, while simultaneously "dialing back" on the top in with the way loot caps work. #lumnisforloot

lime hatch
#

How many of these groups do we think there are? I don't think it would be that hard to have some way to locate them, or be alerted to them, and investigate each case. Eventually the problem goes away if it's against the rules and can be dealt with when it pops up.

brave turtle
#

Honestly? I think the change to scripting policy infractions being an exp penalty made people a lot more brazen about it. Yeah being locked out of exp gain is functionally similar to a lockout, but not having the risk of being banned has a lot of people just rolling the dice a lot of the time and just sorta banking on not getting checked

buoyant rain
#

It's not like who these big MA groups are is much of a secret..ignoring the piles of folks in boats anyway

willow plaza
floral storm
#

when an MA group of 13 accounts is generating 36 creatures that constantly cause anyone walking into the room to crash client side then that is extremely disruptive to the game though.

lime hatch
#

Well Wyrom has demonstrated a willingness to sacrifice some amount of revenue for the good of the game so I wouldn't say anything along the lines of "they won't do it if it causes a revenue drop".

placid vortex
#

I think something I said was either read wrong or I explained it wrong. But the amount of times someone else impacts your hunt is not that much. An open void has to impact the creature in your room to be tagged. We're talking maybe a few creatures a hunt. Unless there is an uptick of this happening that I'm not seeing.

#

I'm also mobile, so slow at typing. I should use speech to text.

brave turtle
#

Now I want to know how your phone spells your name on speech to text

unkempt chasm
#

There was (or maybe still is; I actually don't know) a Hinterwilds sorcerer who would leave open voids in like every other room of Fjallarhaart to make things easier since the voids could stun things before the character got back to that room. That's what Ptolemy was talking about.

placid vortex
#

Let's try it out.

#

Awesome Wyrom, the best at pronouncing Wyrom.

#

There you go.

brave turtle
#

Woah nailed it

placid vortex
#

While the other would benefit from the group bonuses.

willow plaza
# unkempt chasm There was (or maybe still is; I actually don't know) a Hinterwilds sorcerer who ...

That came up in conversation in the Hinterwilds thread, and the person who was doing it wasn't aware of the impact it was having. When it was brought up, there was some behind the scenes "opps" conversations and that stoppped for the most part. It was a genuine case of someone not realizing the impact it was having. I still see it from time to time, but yeah... what you're talking about was a thing, and not so much any more.

lime hatch
#

unless he/she didn't hunt enough to get soft capped anyways and preferred the defensive benefit of the voids?

unkempt chasm
placid vortex
#

If two people aren't loot capped are having some sort of symbiotic hunting relationship through AoE spells, this isn't going to cause much of anything in terms of loot other than maybe more loot pressure.

hot quarry
#

I would encourage everyone to track one of their 15 minute loot hunts in their ascension area of choice and report it back here. Hopefully this is more of an issue of perception. A good generation rate for 15 minutes of ascension hunting should be 200-400k. If you're making 50-75K something is wrong.

brave turtle
#

Too much variance for prof/build in a test like that

hot quarry
#

And if nothing is wrong then I would encourage you to hunt elsewhere if loot is your goal lol

unkempt chasm
#

I'd honestly bet that even the Hinterwilds after it's "strip mined" remains significantly better than OTF and Nelemar. But, for some people, it might be the entire foundation of loot pressure that they philosophically object to, which I don't begrudge them.

Edit: Which is why I was saying yesterday that, much as I'd like more visibility into loot pressure, I'm not sure it would solve perceived problems. Even if a person knows their area is at +4 over baseline, they could still be upset that that's comparatively low to their area reaching +15 over baseline when Duskruin's going on and people are in the arena.

hot quarry
willow plaza
jaunty gate
#

It's also not really what this discussion is about.

placid vortex
#

For the sake of transparency...

The only case where this might drive loot down is if one of them is vastly over levelled on the critter, and that's not going to happen in the HW. So for the voider, the most they would be doing is pushing up loot since it would count as more like-level contributors. GS still encourages group play in this manner. There should be a few saved posts out in the wild about it.

unkempt chasm
placid vortex
#

Okay, good good.

#

Making sure I'm not going to have a horse head in my bed tonight.

#

That's a mafia joke, just in case that's lost.

#

Tone is even harder on mobile.

#

The game has a lot of power leveling safeguards built in.

#

Where a capped person tries to push a lowbie through the game.

#

This is when contribution to creature gets severely impacted.

hot quarry
#

The way ppl talking in this thread its as if loot pressure from MA group is like a thunderstorm.... rolls in one afternoon then clears up at night like nothing happened. Is the pressure that quick and impactful immediately?

placid vortex
#

No, it's not. Pressure has a normal distribution method of determining level of loot. It's got really big standard deviations.

#

But the system is designed to encourage moving around.

red crystal
violet fjord
placid vortex
#

I already coded that in!

#

I assumed someone would just drop silver and do it over and over again from the get go.

violet fjord
#

Hah, you've learned how GS players think. I'm impressed and afraid at the same time haha

hot quarry
#

How often would a bug altering merchant (for fossil charm) come around, do you release special bugs like maybe the ones auctioned off/spinnered at events? I am devoid of all bugs on parade knowledge

lime hatch
opal canopy
# placid vortex But the system is designed to encourage moving around.

In isolation, incentivizing people to "move around" would be a positive thing. But those differences in population happened organically. Some areas are worse than others, and providing treasure incentivizes doesn't fix the major issues with those areas.

An easy example with the F'Eyrie, in Teras:

Cons: Travel to Teras is time-consuming and tedious. (Less so than before, but it still is). Being in Teras is socially isolating, the opposite of what many people want from an MMO. Your odds of getting rescued if you die in the F'Eyrie are remote. (This is solved with salve, another flawed fix to a system that needs work). The monsters in the F'Eyrie, while thematically awesome, are extremely annoying to fight. You need a ridiculously high amount of climbing to make it in/out of the area, moreso than for actual endgame areas like the Sanctum. Pros: Better treasure. (But it's offset by the annoyingness of the monsters. You could probably get more silver per minute by hunting in a more reasonable place.) No amount of increased treasure you're willing to give makes that area worth going to, and so it's deserted. Those problems exist in a bunch of different places. The Broken Lands. The Red Forest. River's Rest. Zul Logoth.

Trying to solve the problem of getting the population to not stick to one place with treasure is, and always has been, a flawed solution. It doesn't end up rewarding people for traveling - it's punishing people who play the game for social reasons.

lethal hull
placid vortex
#

Not sure if my message will appear, but mobile Discord suuuucks.

unkempt chasm
#

I'm not sure I even do understand why incentivizing people to move around is a positive. I acknowledge that it's the intended design, so things I say in here always take it as a given and assume it's remaining in place, but I don't know what the objective is. Trying to stave off player boredom by creating reasons to visit a variety of areas?

lime hatch
#

from the link you shared, it appears the objective was to spread players out more, right?
This system has to cause migration to those other towns now, that was the biggest reason for it, to spread player populations out, instead of having them fight crowds those selected wealthy critters in hordes.

unkempt chasm
#

That's the intended outcome, but what's the underlying reason behind why it should be done?

In other words, "to what end?"

lime hatch
#

I think it's a bit of a conundrum in today's GS...where we might actually benefit by having players less spread out...but then we don't enjoy the rich expanse of Elanthia?

hot quarry
#

You just need to be crafty and smart.... observe the swarm, learn its patterns. front-run the chaos to maximize gainz from zero pressure.... survival of the fittest!

normal bloom
ashen yew
lime hatch
#

I do feel like it could be better these days to do away with loot pressure. Normalize loot based on "difficulty" of the area. Lower the loot cap (painful I know) to offset the gains. This would make hunting more interesting/rewarding for those hunting less and further penalize (ugh) those hunting more...so some solution needs to be there to offset the pain at the top...but any system that increases loot generation has to have an offset somewhere.

Then the main task for dev becomes spreading players out by difficulty tiers. Natural spread occurs as players look to avoid "crowded" areas.

blazing elbow
#

The foraging bounties are more an issue because it's only 1 or 2 rooms for some herbs like in HW

unkempt chasm
ashen yew
#

My quick answer to that is no, because people will all go to the easiest hunting ground and then complain that it is too populated hahaha

#

Look at cyclopses for an instructive lesson

violet fjord
#

I would be curious to better understand the actual magnitude of the effect of loot pressure. Like, what does a month with no pressure on Ptolemy look like compared to one with heavy loot pressure. Not to pick on him specifically, heā€™s huge offered some anecdotal numbers in terms of valravn plums for example. Are we talking millions of silver per month disparity? Hundreds of thousands?

placid vortex
#

Looks like my old message is just gone.

Basically loot pressure is a measurement of kills and loot cap is a measurement of treasure value. They impact each other but are separate systems. So to answer you @lethal hull, yes, a loot capped person can impact loot pressure.

Loot pressure works its way back to normal/base line quickly, that includes both penalties and bonuses. So one person, or even one group, isn't doing this overnight. And once a penalty is in place for a creature, it moves back to baseline pretty quickly as other things are killed.

ashen yew
#

I would be interested to know the loot pressure effects right now on like, a specific hinterwilds creature. Cannibals, maybe, or disir. Is it positive or negative?

unkempt chasm
# ashen yew Look at cyclopses for an instructive lesson

So I kind of agree, but part of the problem there is the cyclops cave is tiny. If it was Hinterwilds/Moonsedge/Hive sized, not sure it would be a problem.

Even the Atoll isn't exactly huge (though still much bigger than the cyclops cave), which maybe contributes to feelings of being overcrowded.

jaunty gate
placid vortex
#

The exact numbers are more some secret sauce, but it's not this looming penalty that sticks around all month.

ashen yew
placid vortex
#

It is a normal distribution that you can plot.

normal bloom
#

My scarabs are 8.92% and being a not capped character Iā€™m not maxed on trading either. Definitely not getting rich

opal canopy