bold rock
A question that's frequently comes up on #rangers is whether to use open aiming archery or sniping for rangers who use ranged weapons.
Given that reasonable rangers could end up on different sides of this and with different rationale for their decision, I'd enjoy hearing what everyone's thoughts on which route to take and what goes into making this training decision.
**Benefits of Sniping **
(1) Protection it offers - you cannot be hit if you cannot be found and it functions as crowd control, potentially saving time in your attack setup;
(2) 50% reduction of enemy EBP; and
(3) Better utilization of 608 since you are much more likely to remain hidden and get more shots off
Drawbacks of Sniping
(1) Additional TP cost and the associated lost opportunity to train in other areas while leveling; and
(2) Ranged shots takes 1 second longer
It's important to note that both drawbacks can be mitigated through additional experience and +STR enhancives/ASC training respectively. This means all rangers eventually will benefit from having sniping as an option. It's just a matter of when you find it useful enough given the drawbacks.
There may be a value in considering how heavily armored your ranger is too; those in lighter kit might really appreciate the defensive benefits of sniping.
hazy schooner
Rangers are almost as good at sniping as rogues, but even with 617 they're never going to be as good at hiding... though that's mostly a concern around undead. The lack of access to Vanish and Divert can be a pain too, but can mostly be made up for with 610.
I played my ranger as a sniper until she was almost 40, with no real problems, but ultimately fixskilled her into a dagger ambusher because it just too similar to my sniping rogue even with the differences above and I didn't see any point to having them both hunting that way.
dark violet
In my opinion they should be better than rogues at hiding in any location that one would consider out doors.
arctic bear
Let's quantify this discussion with numbers from Naijin:
"Ranger Total Bonus: 480
Rogue Total Bonus: 578
That's without Armored Stealth, as a HK (for both)."
#mechanics message
Rangers are a very clear second to rogues, nearly 100 points behind rogues (at cap). In this calculation, Naijin was doing his best to control for typical setups, comparing a 2x hiding ranger with spells vs a 3x hiding rogue with typical training.
With "combat defense", we can all observe that (capped) rangers have perhaps a 70 - 90% chance to hide against foes with 2x perception (which is nominal target for which combat defense reports success). This means that rangers have no real chance to hide vs foes with 3x perception, even with shadarl. I suppose you could get there with full enhancives and ascension. But, we're no match for rogues with 3x hiding and their profession bonus.
hazy schooner
Honestly, the difference in the ability of a ranger and rogue to stay hidden is small enough to be negligible around most critters by level 40 and the only time I notice a difference in their abilities was around undead by level 60. It's really just that the numbers for one profession don't get as high as for the other, pretty much anything searching for either will need an open roll to find them by level 70ish. It's things like room effects in the rift dragging them out of hiding that makes stealth builds a pain post-cap... cause I'm pretty sure the only things they're going to be around that have 3x perception are rogues.
arctic bear
Those are some very general qualitative observations that leave out a lot of details. This makes me doubt your claims, but, since I didn't use stealth heavily while leveling, I can't directly refute them.
What about animals (e.g. griffins)? Do all undead easily search out rangers but struggle with rogues? Does any of this change for post-cap hunting?
On the few occasions when I did try stealth on a ranger, it certainly didn't feel reliable. You're saying the difference is negligible, but it certainly doesn't appear that way to me.
I don't intend to start a debate - I'd just like this post to be informative for up and coming rangers.
hazy schooner
Those are some very general qualitative observations that leave out a lot of det...
With no numbers shown IG with S&H, it's not possible to get super specific.
Critter perception from least to greatest is humanoid>animals>undead. I've determined that level plays a role, but 3x in S&H is more than enough to allow a level 60 character to run around town during a capped invasion without too much risk (though I wouldn't suggest staying in a room with 10+ capped critters trying to sniff you out at that level).
My rogue has always been 3x in S&H, has had 2 ranks in Armor Stealth since it became a thing. By level 40 undead were able to sniff him out of hiding with roughly the same frequency I see an open role with SMR (which leads me to believe searching out hidden characters is an open role), by the time he was in the dungeon of the Keep (50ish) it was rare for him to get sniffed out by anything at all.
The Ranger (2x S&H, fully spelled up, no blessing lore until level 72ish) was still getting sniffed out by undead occasionally in her 50s and rarely by the time she stopped hunting the Citadel in her late 60's. She's level 75 atm, so I don't have experience above that yet... but against like level foes, she's absolutely on par with where the rogue was at that level. Against foes 20+ levels above her, I'm sure undead would be able to find her sometimes... but I'd be surprised if humanoid foes managed to find her.
I should prolly also note that both characters are in the shadows when they move around hunting grounds, though the ranger pops in and out of them with each attack since she fixskilled into OHE/shield... and she can also take a hit a heck of a lot better than the rogue if she has to.
quiet grail
I had trained for sniping before I realized that as I was analyzing my hunting patterns, I hardly ever used hiding at all. This was mainly due to the fact that I was...
A - In a group and typically leading, which causes problems due to group mechanics.
B - Didn't see that much higher lethality from sniping vs. open aiming.
Once ditching the training in favor of open aiming, I had quite a bit of training points to reallocate to other things that needed beefing up. After a couple of years without hiding, I don't miss it at all, even when soloing.
Edit to Add: I don't know how/why this turned into a Ranger vs. Rogue discussion. I didn't get the sense from reading the OP that it was intended. This seemed to me about 2 different choices rangers can make (hiding or not) when using ranged weaponry.
dark violet
I don't think it was meant or is meant to be a ranger vs rogue discussion. More that it's about something that both professions are supposed to be able to be great at and ranger's aren't coming off all that great in comparison post S&H changes mechanically speaking. I do know that if/when I finally get around to playing my ranger again I'm just thinking of going polearm instead of archery. Archery still sounds a bit persnickity then it needs to be. Probably pass on the S&H as well.
arctic bear
100% agree. The question that's relevant for this thread is - as a sniping ranger, how effective at hiding will I be? It seems widely acknowledged that rogues seem pretty effective, but we ought to expect to be less effective than rogues. It's then important to understand the consequences of that. Which creatures are we unable to hide from?
hazy schooner
Hiding isn't an all or nothing proposition, esp when leveling. If it were I could just answer the question with "above level x, all of them". Instead I used rogues as a basis for comparison at various levels, when it was asserted rangers can't hide reliably and was told I left out details. I tried to be more detailed for you and get told it's not relevant. So, I'll leave you to do your article without further input from me.
dark violet
**"Hiding isn't an all or nothing proposition, esp when leveling. " **-Starchitin
Gonna say, as someone who is a leveling player and not a post cap Gemstone player, It does often feel like it's n all or nothing while leveling. My rogue ran into all sort of issues for many levels before i grew frustrated and stopped. Seems the game wants him to now be in robes for that big hiding bonus to deal with how the hiding mechanics have changed in recent years. 😦 He's ok in some places, other levels/locations he's pretty screwed.
I'm betting I'd run into the same thing with my ranger, which I'd find quite frustrating. Again it's why I'll most likely do a way with S&H with my ranger once I start leveling him again.
quiet grail
Chain4LYF!!!
Editor: Erek says "chain 4 lyf!" because he's sunk so much into his chainmail that to think of re-building from scratch is soul crushing
fathom phoenix
**"Hiding isn't an all or nothing proposition, esp when leveling. " **-Starchiti...
This is Ranger conversation but there is no reason you need to be in robes as a hiding / ambushing rogue. You will need to devote training into the skill (I did 2.0 x early on and 2.5x more recently wearing brig; now at level 87).
torn drum
Stealth:
Raw hide skill: 729
Raw spot skill: 328
Chance to hide: 401%
My Ranger Inside (In town/In Cave (ex. Dead Pit in Hinterwilds)
Stealth:
Raw hide skill: 495
Raw spot skill: 374
Chance to hide: 121%
I train both my Ranger & Rogue for Stealth. In my experience my Ranger is better hiding in outside of town & in natural terrain. My Rogue is better at hiding everywhere else.```
617 - Sneaking provides an additional hiding bonus in natural terrains (no bonus increase for hard/flat or in town), which is increased by training in the Ranger spell circle.
When the caster has the Natural Colors or Mass Colors spell active with Sneaking, the two together make the caster nearly imperceptible when outdoors, thus allowing him to move from room to room unnoticed by all except only the most perceptive.
Although this spell allows the caster to move around mostly unnoticed, if a creature or player specifically looks around the room for a new target, the caster will still be noticed as the combination of the two spells does not allow for perfect invisibility.
618 - The target receives an increase to the base hiding bonus provided by this spell when in natural terrains (not hard/flat or in town). This bonus is increased by training in the Ranger spell circle. Other stealth activities, such as STALKing, remaining unseen while hidden, and unhiding unseen are also easier while this spell is in effect.
The key components are "Training in the Ranger Spell Circle" & "Hiding bonus in natural terrains (no bonus increase for hard/flat or in town)."
My Ranger currently has 162 Ranks in the Ranger Spell Circle. Eventually I plan to train 177 ranks the Ranger Spell Circle.
Rangers can be great with Stealth. It is a choice. You have to commit to train for it. https://www.play.net/gs4/info/spells/spelllist.asp?circle=9```
celest urchin
Also, 106.
torn drum
Also, 106.
You could include Ranks in Blessing Lore. My impression and experience with my Ranger is that dedication to training the Ranger Spell Circle is key where stealth for Rangers is concerned.
arctic bear
```My Ranger Outside
Stealth:
Raw hide skill: 729
Raw spot skill: 328...
I'm so stealth averse that I totally forgot about the outdoor bonus, and that it's multiplicative - making our stealth abilities pretty massively good when outdoors. Good info. Is there anything you can't hide from reliably with that 729 bonus?
torn drum
I'm so stealth averse that I totally forgot about the outdoor bonus, and that it...
It is a relatively rare occurence. Do not recall having any problem hiding from anything where the terrain offered you that bonus (729).
torn drum
It is a relatively rare occurence. Do not recall having any problem hiding from...
Raw hide skill: 567
Raw spot skill: 360
Chance to hide: 207%
This is what you would have if you halved 162 Ranger Base Ranks to 81 Ranger Base Ranks.``` Raw hide skill: 759
Raw spot skill: 322
Chance to hide: 437%
When I max out spells to 177 Ranger base & 25 Minor spirit the raw hide skill will be 759.```Does this mean that the hiding bonuses in natural terrains (from 601 and 617) don't max out at 100 ranger base ranks? If so, this contrasts with the general trend for spell rank bonuses only scaling up to 100 ranks.
torn drum
Does this mean that the hiding bonuses in natural terrains (from 601 and 617) do...
The bonus to Stalking and Hiding in natural terrains is increased with more ranks in the Ranger Base spell circle according to the documentation. There is not a cap that I am aware of. The Combat Defense verb implies there is not a cap. That has been my experience hunting with my Ranger in Hinterwilds. There is also a Hiding bonus from using 618.
celest urchin
@undone lynx did some great research on being revealed when shooting from hiding, and I wanted to make sure it got linked here: #rangers message
torn drum
I play a capped Sylvankind Ranger with 2x S&H and 162 Ranger spell ranks. I touched on how the environment & terrain has an impact on Ranger Stealth for good or ill. If you sre hidden when you use tracking you remain hidden. It would also be worth noting that 608 works very well with sniping. And if you have 20 in blessing lore your companion also get a an attack from the shadows too.
torn drum
The Sanctum of Scales is not the the most friendly environment for Ranger Stealth except for the Desert. Unfortunately 👣 Tracking doesn't work in the desert. I guess because it is a maze? Would be nice if it did. No one hunts the desert. My ranger has 3x survival and the desert is fun to hunt. 😄
torn drum
Stealth:
Raw hide skill: 561
Raw spot skill: 361
Chance to hide: 200%
Sanctum of Scales, Courtyard Self Spelled 81 ranks in the Ranger Spell Circle
Stealth:
Raw hide skill: 480
Raw spot skill: 377
Chance to hide: 103%
Sanctum of Scales, Sanctum Tower Self Spelled 81 ranks in the Ranger Spell Circle
Stealth:
Raw hide skill: 428
Raw spot skill: 388
Chance to hide: 40%```
Stealth:
Raw hide skill: 723
Raw spot skill: 329
Chance to hide: 394%
Sanctum of Scales, Courtyard Self Spelled 162 ranks in the Ranger Spell Circle
Stealth:
Raw hide skill: 561
Raw spot skill: 361
Chance to hide: 200%
Sanctum of Scales, Sanctum Tower Self Spelled 162 ranks in the Ranger Spell Circle
Stealth:
Raw hide skill: 469
Raw spot skill: 380
Chance to hide: 89%```Dedication to the Ranger Spell circle makes a difference.
grand prism
A little late to the party on this one, but; I remember being super excited and interested in the sniping mechanic when it was first released. There really wasn't anything like it existing in the game at the time, and the fact that it would work WITH the +30 AS bonus from 608 made it a no brainer for me. One of the defining characteristics of the ranger class is that it's a jack of all trades, master of none (except skinning and foraging now.)
I have always made use of hiding and stalking in my character's roleplay and play style. I find sniping ridiculously useful in things like the Duskruin Arena and during certain storyline events. That being said, I'm looking at the idea through the lens of a very longtime, high experience character.
In my normal hunting practices, I find myself very rarely using sniping anymore. Partly because I group hunt with my wizard, partly because I find I don't need the added +AS / DS pushdown that it provides. But I find myself hiding, a lot, while interacting with other players (be it eavesdropping on conversations, spying on opponents, etc.) Hiding is how I learned Naamit was giving aid and quarter to the Flock and how I found the crystal that she was trying to keep secret. It's how I located and gained entry to the Flock's little hidey-hole on FWI. For me, hiding is an integral part of my idea of my ranger. Sniping is an added mechanical benefit, but not the primary driving factor behind why I trained in hiding and stalking.