[Official] Ascension Area Incentives

[proper carbon]

My current ‘want’ from Asc area rewards are specialized and powerful cmans, weapon techs and spells that act like ‘finishing moves’, or ‘ultimates’ or ‘limit breaks’ in other games. Put them on a 30min cooldown so they are an every other hunt thing.

[silent kite]

I agree 100%, but isn't this just the higher tiers of ascension skills? I mean, that's exactly what they were proposed to be. Don't need a new system for that, just finish the one already started.

[alpine iris]

We need group cmans so like giantman warrior can throw a gnome rogue into the air to pierce a gigas in the eye max crit. Make the MA teams even stronger.

[left gorge]

Perhaps the higher tiers could require a combination of ascension exp and ascension+ experience, the latter of which can only be acquired in ascension hunting grounds (please excuse my confusing verbiage here)

[silent kite]

Well, as proposed they sort of already would. You'd have to earn enough specific ASC skills to unlock certain paths to access the higher tiers. At least that's what I remember being stated. So your ASC skills essentially would become a sort of "'ASC+ EXP'". (Assuming I'm understanding what you're detailing, I think, maybe, I dunno.) 😆

Edit: Oh! I think I follow. You're wanting something you can only earn in ascension areas. I suppose. I don't really see a need for that, personally. If you want to expend 100 levels worth of exp to get 150 ASC points before cap, I mean, you earned it. 😄 You're also now going to have to finish capping. Putting in the time up front or later I don't really see makes a big difference. As someone about to have capped-level EXP in ASC, they really don't go that far.

[whole steeple]

Suggested incentive:

1. Have a shop like HESS, maybe just some offerings in HESS, that are gated by Ascension area drops. The event currency still has to be paid, but some of the offerings in there are only available if someone has been hunting Ascension areas.
2. The drops could be ascension collectibles, with the reward for redeeming them being the ability to purchase otherwise unobtainable items. Four collections, 1 at each level of rarity, gating access to different purchases. It could even be just the one item and 3 unlocks.

[left marsh]

walking into the new chuck-e-cheese location in cold river village and slapping down my fat reel of ascension tickets

[whole steeple]

Possibly, but of the sort of power level that require a fat expenditure of simucoins too.

[marsh magnet]

"That would be so cool"
-Mr. E. Cheese

[gray geyser]

👎

[left marsh]

I wasn't even trying to be critical, I just liked the image that popped into my head. I think there's something to like, a prize wall or maybe ascension-specific HESS tie in, but idk if simu would want to deal with the upset that would come when a large number of duskruin customers would be blocked out of stuff

[whole steeple]

They aren't blocked out of stuff. They can buy ascension tickets off someone else, just like they can buy bloodscrip or whatever off someone else. Also it doesn't have to be in DR. Just that sort of power level and simucoin cost.

[gray geyser]

I'd rather it be something earned, not bought.

[marsh magnet]

I think that design element is already decided? They will be tradeable, right?

[proper carbon]

Except i really dont think those higher tiers were ever started

But im a guy who says combine that all into charms and maybe we see it before 2028

[sharp dagger]

I dont see any reason for charm and ascension crossover tbh.

[cedar flax]

There already are ascension drops, they're called relics. Maybe they just need to be "real" and tradable/collectable/useful in more ways? I think second tier anything is always a real challenge, because expectations get so high.

[proper carbon]

Thats why i like the charm aspect. As described they would be drops, so it encourages grind to beat the rng of it and player trading after.

Another tier of asc is now a whole new xp stream to build up a whole new ladder of upgrades. That ladder will take ages to build and balance. Then the inevitable complaints about which class has the better ladder, how X class ladder sucks. Etc

[last cliff]

I think its doubtful we'd see a shop that is HESS things since they require GM interactions for a lot of that stuff and I dont overly think they want to add in having to redeem stuff year round for players.

I think the charms system if it offer enough things could apply to a very wide range of things for players.
some things I think could be neat are.
a raise system like reim has where you're whisked away and brought back to life

being able to select a bounty that you want for the zone

being immune to the cold

being immune to dread

rerolls when you get open rolled

a slew of +offensive boons

a slew of +defensive boons

Being able to wear extra spells

being able to convert some of the lower level spells like maybe 5 and under into "cantrips" no longer require mana to use

more uses of something like second wind

something that lets you break out of status effects

teleporting to hunting zones from anyplace

[left gorge]

In D4 you have to run nightmare dungeons to upgrade a charm-like item. Have they talked about whether charms will have upgrade paths? Upgrading a charm would get me into ascension areas.

[cyan badge]

Ugh, I know I'm not the only one who can't stand long cool down abilties or items. I disliked it in old WoW and LotRO and other mmorpgs and I truly dislike seeing it become more popular in GS with recent sold items at pay events.

[proper carbon]

I'm not sold on cooldowns either, but basically once every other hunt or something is the metric I was thinking for like a 'finishing move'

[last cliff]

15 min is like the perfect cool down window on big skills imo.

[proper carbon]

Thats fine. I don't have some great love of any number. 1 per hunt or 2 per hunt for a big 'Boom' skill feels satisfying

[last cliff]

15 min is basically once per hunt in my experience.

[left marsh]

Yeah 15 is fine. More than 15 is kind of "am i really ever going to use this"

[proper carbon]

it would also be a fun vector for customization. Maybe my capstone can look different from yours but they do the same thing.

[hybrid nebula]

i agree 10-15 minutes lets you use it once a hunt essentially, more than that and i definitely fall into the "NO I NEED THIS ABILITY" <haven't used it since 2019> trap

[alpine iris]

I made a forum post awhile back about item cooldown standardization but never heard any feedback. I truly do think all items should have similar rules when it comes value per use. That might hurt us with the flexibility and really good outliers but I think it would help the overall value of scripted items. I feel bad that I can use my sigil armor pretty consistently every hunt while other scripts not only have 30-60 minute timers but also force you to jump through hoops to recharge. (blood/energy)

[proper carbon]

yeah, I was just reminded how satisfying it can be in a game to bust out your super move when its ready. Gemstone needs some of that energy

[silent kite]

These are the sorts of things I'm kind of hoping for. I 100% want special cman/techs/abilities to be a part of ascension, but to me that just feels more like it should be more a part of the grind aspect. I get the RSN trope, but for charms, if we're getting five slots, I'm hoping for charm "boons" that are more like specific powerful augments rather than enhancives or MK/SK-esque abilities, and to have the option to mix-and-match (even if limited) depending on what we want to do with them and when. I mean, I'm not going to complain if we end up with either, this is all just subjective pondering anyway.

[cyan badge]

I do love the concept of finishing moves as an aside. I just really dislike long cool down abilties as a mechanic. I could totally see them in use versus something like the Wyrms though.

[proper carbon]

could be both though. Lesser and Greater charms were mentioned (i think)

[cloud inlet]

I actually used my essence belt +AS the other day. First time ever!

[alpine iris]

Essence belt would be perfect if it had a 15m cooldown instead of 30

[gray geyser]

Gear with long cooldowns just feels like a waste of money

[proper carbon]

I bought the belt, then got frustrated with the cooldowns and refunded it. I agree. long CD abilities seem very bad, especially if you have limited play time per day

[raw tapir]

I consider the long cooldown on the spore staff to be about where my tolerance is. 15 minutes cooldown on a 3 minute buff that makes sense to be used when you're in a hairy spot but not saved for the absolute emergency. It's other cooldowns being 3 minutes are also super "use this whenever it's vaguely appropriate" rather than holding out for perfect scenarios

[alpine iris]

I think 3 minutes on 15m cd is really the sweet spot for many players I have heard from. (for buffs)

(10m cooldown for premium players though 🤑 )

[cloud inlet]

I think you're on to something there.

[proper carbon]

Every 15m means every hunt, 1 time. I can enjoy that value

[worn magnet]

I'm all for CDs being tied to subscription level.

Basic 15 min
Premium 10 min
Platinum/shattered 5 min

[supple girder]

https://tenor.com/NPjT.gif

[cyan badge]

I'm all for it if our plat subscription also applies that CD to prime. After all, it's actually prime players who plat sub that keep plat alive. So yeah, vote me yes in that case.

[tall lake]

3m duration on 15m cd is the only cd ill consider buying 😛

or actually 1.5m duration is the bottom of acceptable for me cuz my hunts are between 2-3min usually

[worn magnet]

This is false but way to stir the pot. But yes the suggestion would of course apply to anyone with a platinum level subscription.

[cyan badge]

Weren't you trying to stir the pot? Also, it isn't false in my opinion.

[smoky kindle]

let's end the tangent about platinum, please

[rocky moth]

drigler has lots of platinum and platinum-bound stuff.. He loves platinum.. does that count?

[worn magnet]

Zhagen made a comment about premium having a shorter cooldown. I think that's a good idea.

[smoky kindle]

it definitely counts as a comment that is irrelevant to the thread lol

[rocky moth]

a white bear fur cloak hooded by a polar bear head with glowing **platinum** eyes, a leather-bound skullcap streaked with lightning-shaped **platinum** bolts, a **platinum**-bound orase badge, a dark-stained **platinum**-bound orase case, a slim **platinum** quiver

[worn magnet]

I think CD standardization, which was part of the topic, would be a good thing. Ascension area perks that allow shorter CDs on existing gear and items would be good too.

In general, I'm in favor of any benefits that add value to existing subscription tiers.

[rocky moth]

some scripts were updated with lower cd's not too long ago, right? would be nice for all scripts to get this love..

[smoky kindle]

cooldowns in general are an interesting space; people seem okay in theory with "once a day" and they also seem okay with "once per fifteen minutes" but most of the space in between seems to not feel as good

[royal niche]

The ascension zone-specific aspect is... huh. If I could pop the regen on my animal armor every 15 minutes in HW, while it's an hour elsewhere, would I be more likely to buy that? Maybe?

But also I might feel a little bit squeezed. And I'd wonder why I couldn't use it in invasions.

[rocky moth]

i think once per hunt is good for most abilities..15 minutes being the top end duration of most hunts, I'd guess..

[tall lake]

its the "standard" duration between hunts specifically

[worn magnet]

I think 15 min came about mainly due to the adv guild right?

[alpine iris]

When people are buying things for money they definitely want to picture themselves using it. For items with longer cooldowns (30/60m), I am sure people are reluctant to get those since the joy of using it is so far apart. Also, people probably reserve those long cooldowns in case of emergencies and then simply never use them leading to more failed expectations about the joy/value you are buying. I personally stay clear of items with abilities more than 30m cd unless it is a game breaking ability.

[worn magnet]

I think part of it is that many gear abilities aren't as powerful as a psm3 cman you can use frequently.

[proper carbon]

off topic, but if I pay $$ for an ability with a cooldown, me using in HW or in Roltons shouldn't matter

[dusky yarrow]

Inventory management is a real beast at higher levels, particularly post cap. How about adding in some sort of enhancive combination service where I can begin aggregating some of my enhancives (perhaps only those found in ascension areas) so that I can free up inventory slots for all these new profession inventory slot items that are coming out?

[worn magnet]

A bag like the Bag of Trixx but for enhancives would be cool to earn by hunting in an ascension area.

[proper carbon]

Man I'd love something that simple. Aggregate all of it, put all the charges in one bucket. Flat average cost of bps to recharge it

[proper carbon]

It really is one of Gemstone's more obtuse systems, but also a gateway to alot of character power.

[dusky yarrow]

I think there could be a lot of tie ins to a system like that. For instance - maybe absorbed exp could allow for 1 more point of X to be combined. Maybe absorbing exp would chage it. Things like that.

[proper carbon]

I agree. Its why so many of us were enthused to see the enhancive system get streamlined and looked at...which just vanished. 😦

[ancient timber]

The reason why my main does not hunt ascension areas very much is because of the difficulty to get to the area and requirements within that area. I would rather the mobs be harder as a method of making it an ascension area than to use puzzles and requirements as a way to make it an ascension area. Even stuff like spellburst etc, to try and make it more difficult. Not a big fan of that. Why not just give the critters more crit padding and higher hp or something. Make em harder to kill.

[ancient timber]

Just have like an ascension building in each town, go in the building and you see the red door, the blue door, the green door, and the yellow door. Red door takes you to Confluence, blue door takes you to Moonsedge, green door takes you to Hinterwilds, etc. No puzzles needed, no long travel times. Charge a fee if you like. Pay npc 5k to enter a door. Or an uncut diamond or emerald to enter the door. Help you guys with the silver drain.

[dusky yarrow]

I don't understand your comment around puzzles and requirements. Could you help walk me through what your actual concern is with examples around what a puzzle and requirements are to get into each area?

Both HW and ME are simple to get to and do not require puzzles or long travel time. Once you make your way into HW - you can gain the fragments that allow instant travel to and from IMT (and presumably somewhere in EN too).

I'm not sure what requirements mean? Is this a certain set of skills to allow you to be effective there or an amount of ascension exp that allows the area to be doable? I'm assuming that I don't have it right - but if I do - isn't that the entire purpose of an ascension area?

The mobs are harder, have more HP, etc already. The way I'm reading the comment is that you haven't spent much time in the ascension area and may be avoiding it based on some misconceptions.

I greatly dislike the idea of different doors leading to the areas, as that takes a lot of the ambiance away from what was written and implemented. My dislike grows even more when I think about having to have a specific gem to enter a door each time I want to hunt - as that feels like a requirement.

[ancient timber]

I could have some misconceptions yes, I admit I have not gone to HW or ME yet, so I did assume some there. Though I don't like the fragment thing, full time instant travel would be better. My frusteration mostly came from my attempt at trying out the confluence. Having to find one of the portals and then finding out I need to be elementally attuned. I just got annoyed from the hassle and went back to my old hunting ground. And when I said requirements, I was mostly referring to survival ranks needed to move around in the confluence I guess. and maybe that is a big reason why this thread even exists, peoples misconception.

[deep cipher]

fwiw, confluence isn't an ascension area, it's just a PITA

[ancient timber]

I went to sanctum of scales once, that was a serious pita

[worn magnet]

HW and MS are both much easier to get into compared to confluence
MS has zero entry requirements actually, you just walk there.
HW is probably equal to SOS actually. Both require a wagon ride and both have a mechanic to pretty much instantly get in and out that requires charging.

[deep cipher]

SoS is easy once you have a periapt. Or a ring set up for post-caravan.

[ancient timber]

so if someone lived east of dragonspine, how would they get to MS?

[worn magnet]

Well that's no different than any other hunting ground whether you want to hunt Nelemar, OTF, SOS, Atoll, etc. Geography is still geography and in prime you have a separation that is primarily just time to travel.

[ancient timber]

are there any other ascension hunting grounds besides HW and MS?

[untold meteor]

Those are the only two so far.

[ancient timber]

this is true but we are talking ascension hunting grounds now, and having local access is a thing.

[untold meteor]

Oh, scrolling up a bit... while there's no access to Moonsedge east of the Dragonspine, there actually is access to the Hinterwilds. Same as the west, caravans or paying fragments to teleport.

[ancient timber]

so then my response to the original poster..

For folks well post-cap who don't regularly hunt in Ascension areas, what would it take to get you there?```
would be... make it accessible locally and eliminate the need to find items that unlock instant travel. not a fan of the cart ride itself either, reminds me of the Zul Logoth carts. Maybe this is why Zul Logoth is dead too.

[weary totem]

Ascended bandits!

[worn magnet]

With the wagon NPC already in place I imagine it could be added to each ascension hunting ground if staff is so inclined

[proper carbon]

It would be nice if we had some asc grounds not grouped around IMT. A huge % of the games capped hunting options are there

[ancient timber]

agreed
they own all the omni shrines too, and all the lornon shrines

[proper carbon]

Ill continue to push for EN to get something.

[ancient timber]

I know the confluence isnt acension, but a friend told me they hunt the confluence and almost never see anyone there

[raw tapir]

It helps that there's like 9 copies of it

[untold meteor]

Heh... you know what'd be a doozy for HSN? If one of the updates is Premium getting the Plat portal system. 😂

[proper carbon]

Man id hate that and love that

No. Id hate that

[ancient timber]

whats the plat portal system?

[last cliff]

premium has a portal system its just not free

[untold meteor]

Oh yeah, I completely forgot about that. 😮

[royal niche]

This would be wild.
(I have no knowledge of HSN releases.)

[cloud inlet]

Q did say there was a doozy coming, and also said the bounty timer wasn't considered a doozy to some of his peers so who knows what's coming.

[weary totem]

Probably should speculate real hard and balloon up what a doozie is.

[upbeat glacier]

(plat portal system is amazing)

[hybrid nebula]

the Equestrian Lobby has entered the chat.

[mellow zenith]

Can something be done to make Moonsedge not so poor? I can't even fathom how much less loot I'm getting, for such a wildly more dangerous area, than Atoll.

[next socket]

Is it poorer or are you killing less due to bounties/levels/danger?

[mellow zenith]

I pretty much hunt till i'm at capacity with boxes, which was the same as Atoll.... eyeballing it.... I'm making about 50% less loot than I did in Atoll. Maybe less.

Considerably less high value gems (diamonds/emeralds) - Basically one in every box in Atoll
Considerably less magical trinkets/accessories - consistently would find 2-3 worth 15-30k per hunt in Atoll
Haven't found a single weapons/armor piece worth more than 10k - Consistently would find maybe 1 every other hunt.

I've probably done 20+ hunts in ME now. Maybe more. Bounties have slowed down a little (finish one every other hunt, instead of almost every hunt in Atoll)

The only advantage I'm getting from hunting an ascension zone right now is that ME is all undead and that's helpful for my main that I just converted to Voln.... that's literally it.
Probably twice the difficulty, and no real benefit/value. It's bizarre.

I would consistently pull 100-150k per hunt in Atoll, without much effort.
I'm pulling in 50k or so per hunt in ME.

[next socket]

Are you also comparing the same time of month to remove LootCap impacts?

[mellow zenith]

I think so.... i'm not super familiar with how the lootcap impacts work, but I use one character as my looter until things feel like they're getting soft, then switch who loots.
I pulled 14m in 10 days with Character A being the looter in Atoll (1.4M per day).
I've pulled 1.4m in 3 days with Character B being the looter in ME (466k per day).

--- Someone tell me if that's abuse of the system... seems perfectly reasonable to me though? Maybe a GM can clarify - If that's even how any of this works

I also apologize if this comes off as whiney... I'm just genuinely surprised by the way it works, as I thought ascension was intended to be "high risk, high reward".
Atoll is definitely "low risk, high reward" as it sits now. Probably why it's so overcrowded.

[proper carbon]

I think moonsedge loot is bugged. Im nowhere near loot cap. Its terrible loot. Atoll is definitely paying out more. And atoll is waaaay more crowded

Im starting to believe ME is not getting the 10% auto loot boost from being ASC the same way its bugged on advguild bonuses

[marsh magnet]

nerf Atoll loot! The people have spoken

[mental barn]

Someone correct me if I’m wrong, but I understand loot like this: each area is a big grass field and we’re all grazing roltons. Each month, on the first, the grass magically refills and grass will only grow slowly throughout the month. So, if we all eat too much, it turns to dirt but slowly keeps growing. Also, a rolton’s stomach is only so big, so it can’t eat too much.

I don’t know how to add looties to this metaphor.

[proper carbon]

Basically afaik

But imo, if ASC zones are meant to be a reach and a challenge, i shouldnt be pulling OTF level loot from ME

[smoky kindle]

I’m not sure whether that metaphor is supposed to apply to loot pressure or loot cap

I don’t think it is exactly right for either haha

[mental barn]

Both!

[proper carbon]

I realize for some people, loot pressure is just how fast or slow they hit loot cap. For the rest of us though, silver generation is difficult and efficiency matters. I really hate not feeling rewarded for overcoming the games challenges

[next socket]

I don't think that's accurate. Loot is not normalized on the 1st

[mental barn]

This is good to know. I thought loot “reset” on the 1st.

[raw tapir]

it's more that your stomach is what resets on the first. after you eat so much, your digestion gets less efficient. personal caps do reset on the first

[next socket]

I think loot pressure is a system that degrades over time due to some unknown formula. I also think each can have different values

[smoky kindle]

Loot pressure is constant and works like pressure in that loot is pushed out of enemies when you kill them and into other enemies

[mental barn]

Each area has different values?

[smoky kindle]

Loot cap resets monthly and is personal, not global in any way

[raw tapir]

pressure has absolutely nothing to do with loot cap. completely separate

[smoky kindle]

Each mob has a different loot value

Even within the same area

[mental barn]

So I get pressure is not the same as loot cap. But my understanding was that area pressure reduced “loot volume” for the area in total for everyone.

[raw tapir]

if a particular mob is over hunted, pressure pushes its loot to other mobs in the same peer group. Skin value ALSO has nothing to do with pressure, and is it's OWN scaled value

[next socket]

*can have different values.
If you jump on test and spend an hour in Nelemar, Atoll, etc... you could get a different base value. Like skins are not all at a base value.

[smoky kindle]

It is correct that if an enemy is repeatedly killed (and looted) it will have less loot when killed, while other enemies around its level will have more loot

[mental barn]

I would love it if we had more informational forum posts like this: here’s all the info on how loot works. It’s really awesome to hear you all explain it. I don’t think it’s on wiki, or wiki-able, really.

[raw tapir]

it's on the wiki

[proper carbon]

Its gemstone. Dispel flares were sold in DR for years with no wiki info on them.

[smoky kindle]

It could probably be more clearly elucidated on the wiki

[next socket]

and I think historically they have been reticent to post actional able data for fear of exploitation. On a practical level, you can see things like Nelemar and GOS camps are dirt poor, other areas not so much. Or in pratical terms, no one got rich by leveling in WL

[raw tapir]

I find most people have just listened too much to the noise and don't believe the saved posts on the wiki, and insist it must be different. If everything was dying in equal quantities, pressure would balance, and all that would matter is the skin values slider and your personal loot cap

[smoky kindle]

I think there is some difficulty with anecdotal ideas about loot, yeah, the period of attempted data gathering was interesting in that way

[mellow zenith]

Hearing & seeing all this is why i'm even more perplexed.

On the surface, it appears there is no loot pressure being applied to Atoll. That area is hunted by 5-20 people basically at all times, never ending, and the loot remains ample.
ME, I see maybe 10 people there all day.... and the loot is worse than Treekins in the Red Forest.

[smoky kindle]

Earlier you said that you had looted 14m already this month. That would put you very close to soft cap. I wonder whether what you’re experiencing is simply the effect of the loot cap

[raw tapir]

when I hunted ME the two reasons I found for the bad loot were that individual mob Time to Kill is higher, and spawn rater is lower than I'm used to in other zones (which is somewhat related)

[mental barn]

I appreciate you all. I learned some new things today. Thank you.

[mellow zenith]

When I moved to ME, I had a new character become my looter. So I would think it has no loot impact yet at all.

(I have no idea if this is how it actually works or not)

[raw tapir]

it is. Loot cap is applied entirely to the schmuck who types loot (or cman mug)

[mellow zenith]

well shoot.... that might be part of it then. My looter now, is also my mugger. So he likely may have 1/2 of the 15.3m i've collected.

Even then though... 7-8m on a character wouldn't get me anywhere near a soft loot cap territory

[raw tapir]

if you mug, you burn the mugger's cap. I had to dial back my mugging as my mugger was hitting cap way harder than I realized

[mellow zenith]

i'll switch it up and have my wizard, who's never looted or mugged a thing in his life, do the searching and see what happens

[raw tapir]

yeah, let's see, but I doubt cap is in play. getting to 50% cap is hard. you'll feel it for days before you get there

[proper carbon]

As a non loot capper, ME loot is objectively worse than Atoll

[sharp dagger]

And Nelemar

[orchid fog]

Nelemar is a pretty low bar!

[sharp dagger]

And yet, we fail to clear it

[cloud inlet]

So you notice loot cap before you get to soft cap? I thought wyrom said it shouldn’t affect you until you hit soft cap.

[raw tapir]

*50% penalty FROM cap, e.g. around 75% of the way to 31 million. The numbers Kontii was sharing implied a 50% penalty

[rocky moth]

been saying it for ages, lootcap AND loot pressure is crap

both systems together make it harder for the person that does NOT loot farm and thus widens the money gap between the poors and the non-poors.. (You have to learn how to efficiently travel and switch hunting grounds and put in all this extra work/time to get around loot pressure)

Turn loot pressure off and let people make silver. Here's what would happen:

The people that hit loot cap will CONTINUE to hit loot cap = no net change,

and the people that never hit loot cap will make more silver = more money for poors = smaller silver gap between have and have nots.. Wasn't this one of the stated goals for dev and lootcap?

[smoky kindle]

you don't have to do any of that to get around loot pressure, you just need to be in an area that doesn't have very many people

[gray geyser]

I prefer the poors to stay poor.

[rocky moth]

so does dev! (wait a minute, are YOU dev?)

[rocky moth]

i think its more complex than that. Does it change day to day? hour to hour? How does loot pressure affect skin values? If someone goes into an area and farms it hard for a few hours and then leaves.. its now empty, If I go in there the skins are still lower value 😛

At the end of the day, its just a hurdle that impedes the casual player much more than it does the hardcore farmer
AND
loot pressure already limits monthly earnings, so whats the point of loot pressure? to impose hurdles for everyone? Loot farmers will travel around the whole game to maximize loots.. casual players wont.. who gets punished by loot pressure? the casuals..

And I can't stress enough: If you get rid of loot pressure, hardcore farmers will gain the same amount of loot while casuals will increase. and decrease the silver gap between hardcore farmers and casuals.. Currently, that is NOT happening.

[worn magnet]

It's been stated several times that allowing the bottom 95% to make more silver would cause a bigger issue than the current disparity of wealth

Quite frankly most of the feedback on loot cap and silvers are folks in the top 10-5% or from folks already generating far more than the average per month. Last time I saw the numbers shared I think the average for 95% of the playerbase was stated to be 2 million or less.

[rocky moth]

The second paragraph is hard to understand for me.

As for the first, ok, lets talk about it. It being stated doesn't make it a fact. I'll admit I'm not an economics major but I think I have a pretty good grasp on common sense (on the verge of mastery), and I'm willing to have my mind changed.
Why would "allowing" the 95% of playerbase (that has/gets 2 million or less) cause a bigger issue than the disparity of wealth that "forced" GM's to enable lootcap in the first place?

[cyan badge]

Yeah don't see/understand the point myself. I've found when I needed silver for something, I flat out bought that silver from those folks that are from the top percent who farm the silver. So the wealth issue or lack of silver wealth issue isn't a wealth issue for me. Been doing that since the old days and its even easier now.

[worn magnet]

Imbalance in the game economy: If the majority of players can easily accumulate large amounts of silvers, it would create an imbalance in the in-game economy. The value of the currency would decrease significantly, leading to inflated prices for in-game items and services. This would undermine the game's economic system and diminish the sense of achievement for players who have worked hard to accumulate wealth.

Market saturation and devaluation of rewards: If a large portion of players can easily earn silvers, it could lead to market saturation, where there is an oversupply of in-game items and services. This oversupply can drive down prices and devalue the rewards and achievements associated with earning silvers. Players would have less incentive to engage in the economy or pursue wealth accumulation if the rewards are less meaningful.

[rocky moth]

Ok, I think you're saying that most of the negative feedback about lootcap is coming from the top 5-10% earners so this must mean its ok for the other 90-95%. That is not a good argument, but its besides the point I was trying to make.

I'm talking about loot pressure. Lootcap is throttling the top earners from making HUGE amounts of silver. My argument is that loot pressure is throttling the bottom 95% that make 2 million or so, like you said.

[cyan badge]

My point, that the loot cap does nothing to stop the silver farmers who earn enough to sell and it doesn't stop someone like me who picks up a 100mil here and there. The market just isn't much of market really. Loot cap or no loot cap.

[worn magnet]

Removing hunting pressure is the reason for bringing it up. Removing hunting pressure would increase the amount of silvers generated. This is why it's been suggested by players.

[rocky moth]

You're jumping from one extreme to another here. Removing loot pressure isn't suddenly making those 2 million a month earners jump to hitting loot cap overnight. The market for selling silvers would take a hit "maybe", because people like Celtar might not be so quick to buy silvers from someone else if they have a reasonable path to acquire it themselves.

[worn magnet]

Also, Wyrom has explained this stuff in the past at length and in great detail.

[cyan badge]

We're still just going to buy silver or BS as needed. lol (those of us who tend to only generate about 2 million silvers a month, which I tend to be)

[rocky moth]

There is already market saturation when it comes to silver and its held by the top 1% or whatever that number is. They can dominate the market as they please, sell and make dollars or win almost anything they want in auctions and the best items remain in that top echelon..

[worn magnet]

https://discordapp.com/channels/226045346399256576/1049529762407792761/1056471057478991893
We don't want to make silver generation easier though for the bottom 95%, that is even more counterproductive than introducing a cap. If everyone is earning 10mil a month, we're worse off at 20bil to 30bil silver a month. I realize that's not realistic, but loot boosts that made making millions easier a week would not be a good solution for the game. As of the time of this post, no one is hard capped, still one account getting close though. Bottom 95% is still under 2mil on average and just over 1mil for the median.

Removing hunting pressure would increase silver generation for everyone. Especially if it means folks can stick to easier hunting grounds.

Conservatively, if you remove pressure let's say everyone generates an additional 500k per month. If the bottom 95% is represented by 500 players this would equal 250,000,000 silvers.

[rocky moth]

If everyone is earning 10mil a month, we're worse off at 20bil to 30bil silver a month the only people worse off here are the people selling silver to those that want that extra to buy their little fish food..

I think we're using economics that don't really apply to our game here.. The terms you're using Ruese would apply in an empty-slate clean start. Not in a world where there's already a huge discrepancy of wealth and a HUGE discrepancy of earning.

And then, letting more people earn more silver would actually create competition for goods and services.. Right now, there is only competition between 10 people or so 😛

[worn magnet]

I'm just sharing information that's been stated. Good luck convincing staff

[rocky moth]

how do YOU feel about it?

[worn magnet]

There's zero reason to try and increase wealth because it would just eventually lead to more voices complaining about no use for silvers which was frequently brought up before the loot cap was implemented.

There needs to be an assortment of silver drains that provide value to players before any further tweaking of silver generation should take place. The only 2 significant ones currently are WPS and event boxes.

[rocky moth]

Eh, I dont disagree that more silver drains are useful and would make the game more exciting. But, I'd argue that purely from a balance perspective, loot pressure needs to go. It wouldn't make poor people suddenly rich, or rich people any richer, but it would balance earning more than what we have currently.

[proper carbon]

As long as event boxes exist, i want to earn silver. Silver should be most rewarded in the hardest areas of the game.

[cloud inlet]

I think it is a misconception that loot cap has anything to do with the "wealth gap". It's about the total number, not how it is distributed.

[rocky moth]

The back and forth this morning has been about loot pressure, not lootcap. Lootcap is referenced just to emphasize it throttles the top earners and so loot pressure's existence is irrelevant to them (top earners).

I'm arguing that it's loot pressure that widens the wealth gap, and that its removal would decrease it:

1. People that reach cap would continue to do so, but, faster so less farming (that's a plus)!

2. People that are making less than 2 million a month would make more.

1 + 2 = decrease in wealth gap.

[gray geyser]

Removing loot pressure would just let people farm the easiest to kill thing. Generally, you're rewarded for challenges.

[proper carbon]

Except my level 60 can earn much more than my level 100

[rocky moth]

with zero adjustments to what skins/hunting grounds generate the most loot.. yes.. but.. use your imagination here 😛

[gray geyser]

That's because there are way more level 100s than there are level 60s

[rocky moth]

it's already that way anyway, people are not hunting the most challenging content to generate more loot than others..

[smoky kindle]

loot pressure is specifically a system to make those adjustments!

[rocky moth]

Remove loot pressure and make loot/skin values tiered by level and cap to post cap difficulty. Ideally, that would be part of the deal (this would be the fairest/more balancing for wealth distribution IMO). Otherwise, as Alastir pointed out, you could run into some problems/oddities. But it would still balance wealth more than what we have now.

[gray geyser]

I think there's no way they ever touch the treasure system in any substantial way.

[next socket]

Loot pressure is really off topic for ascension incentives

[smoky kindle]

rin is right, we should shift this conversation to another venue

[rocky moth]

Re: Alastir: They are having a savant panel at simucon. Doesn't everyone say, including GMs, that savants will never happen? Mental spells keep getting released.. Dev doesn't make sense to me sometimes. It seems to lack a sense of priority, and/or direction.

As for treasure, if everyone is fine with the way it works, then so be it. But I don't think I'm saying anything crazy about wealth gap/distribution and how loot pressure affects it. I don't think it has the desired effect. Simply, it has the opposite effect and perpetuates wealth inequality in game.

[smoky kindle]

generally this thread has wandered fairly far afield from the original question, which was, as a reminder, "what would get you to want to go to ascension zones in preference to non-ascension capped hunting?"

[rocky moth]

well, not too far off topic, because one of the incentives would be waaay better loot than I could get farming the lake or other low level skinning grounds.. Loot pressure makes this not such a slam dunk sometimes... quite often even in some of the ascension zones..

[smoky kindle]

sure, "more loot even with loot cap" is a perfectly fair answer

[next socket]

removing loot pressure would perform the exact opposite of the original question- it would disincentivize going to harder locations. Game wide functions are not germane to the topic at hand

[gray geyser]

How about "indirect loot"

Meaning: Not loot like silvers or gems, but loot that is specifically designed to get silvers from other players rather than the system.

Encourage commerce between players.

[alpine iris]

Gotta use those ninja merchant skills to "extract" silvers from other players

[rocky moth]

That depends on quite a few variables: time played, whether you come anywhere close to loot cap as it is, whether you value exp over more loot.. to name a few... It's not accurate to make a blanket statement like that, in this case.

[smoky kindle]

a reasonable idea, and presumably charms would basically do that, if the mechanical benefits were valuable

[rocky moth]

The vast majority of players never reach the loot cap. That means that statement is probably false for most. Other factors (to add to the ones mentioned already) would be unknowns such as comparisons between loot generated in Nelemar/OTF vs Atoll vs ME vs HW.. etc..

[mellow zenith]

Small sample size - but Melivn posted his 1 hour runs this morning, at least the start of a benchmark:

[rocky moth]

At the end of the day, charms is what will get people into ascension grounds. The argument about loot is still a worthwhile one though, and loot pressure is the problem.

[rocky moth]

grouping HW pits and HW forest/First village as two different areas is skewing the numbers towards a higher average for Ascension. AND, it also has Loot pressure in there.. LOTS of it in OTF, Nelemar is not even in it.. But its useful info 😛

[mellow zenith]

Pits should almost always be separated.... highest/most difficult area of the game. Higher level critters, less people hunting. I'm curious why you think it shouldn't be separated.... 30% more loot than the other HW area

[untold meteor]

In past conversations, I've mused about whether it would be a possibility to flip loot pressure a bit: instead of loot just getting worse as an individual creature is killed more frequently, loot could get worse depending on the ratio of how frequently an area's creatures are killed to how often they kill (or possibly even damage) players.

After thinking about it a bit more, that has a ton of flaws, but I haven't come up with anything better yet. At the core, the idea is still that the hardest hunting should yield the biggest rewards--and the problem is how to identify the hardest hunting in anything resembling an objective, holistic way.

The current loot pressure system is trying to approximate that by assuming people gravitate toward easy hunting, but A) that's not necessarily true and B) even where it is true, "easy" is relative to profession, build, gear, experience, and other factors. You can see it in conversations where X person fears the Pits of the Dead but does well in Berserker's End and for Y person it's the exact opposite, etc.

[smoky kindle]

I think these numbers are primarily useful to show that there is a lot of loot in various capped areas. There are too many externalities in terms of character, pressure, etc. to draw further conclusions, except maybe that OTF really is just poor haha (and even then my assumption is that loot pressure accounts for a large percentage of that)

[cedar flax]

How many characters is Mel running to get 1.2m per hour in the pits? I find other areas with more better skins to be more lucrative than the pits, and there are more critters to kill in those areas than in the pits where it doesn't get as swarmy. All of those numbers seem pretty high to me. Clearly they have their technique down.

[gray geyser]

One. Solo.

[alpine iris]

All about the kill speed. In otf people can mow down ithzir but in HW you can get bogged down.

[cedar flax]

For a square my kill speed is pretty quick, but that's why I brought up the lack of swarminess in the pits. It's hard for me to imagine anyone killing that quickly in there because there just aren't that many critters, unless they're bringing more people to make it swarmy. Always curious how people do it. It's pretty obvious that some professions kill faster than others.

[last cliff]

Can confirm just Mel

We should prob also note a giant amount of exp, and gear.

[alpine iris]

If we really wanted make OTF hunters cry, we should break it down by by avg silver per kill and % of kills with loot

It would probably be like 500 silver per Ithzir and 4000 per gigas

[rocky moth]

turn off loot pressure for a month and see what happens

[upbeat glacier]

It could actually be really on-topic if loot pressure was removed only from ASC areas 😄

[next socket]

No

[upbeat glacier]

No you don't like it.. ? because it would absolutely be on-topic and fixes the "people would just hunt the easiest thing"

The higher the level of critter in ASC areas.. the less loot pressure affects them.

[next socket]

Pressure isn't the mechanism. If the ask is to make loot better in ascension areas, that's valid and fine. I still say that creating a method to get to the loot cap, particularly the soft cap faster, isn't really ideal, but it can certainly be part of an overall strategy.

[rocky moth]

hadn't considered that, but... removing loot pressure AND adjuting treasure to be better/tiered based on level all the way to cap and then cap to ascension grounds would have the same effect..

[upbeat glacier]

but it CAN be a fix for all the people NOT hitting loot cap.. and give them reason to go there. Surely the ask isn't "how can we get the 5% to hunt there?"

[next socket]

loot should be better in harder areas. I think part of the overall problem there is that the rate at which staff is creating capped zones isn't keeping pace with the rate people are capping and hunting in capped areas

[rocky moth]

you don't think loot pressure keeps casuals from making more than they could therefore increasing the "wealth gap"?

[upbeat glacier]

This is a fair statement

[next socket]

Perhaps, but again I'm not really sure it's equitable to qualify ascension hunters as the 5%. It's likely much, much higher. If the expectation is that you are into ascension- and we've yet to hear a concrete definition of what the expectation is for an ascension zone hunting, 20-30m+ exp crowd I would say are much more likely to be the power hunting, loot cap approaching crowd than your average level 23 person

Drigler, I really wish you would stop pinging me. I've made it pretty clear I have no desire to talk to you, engage with you, or otherwise associate with you in any way, shape, or form. I really don't like ignoring people on topics of interest, but you aren't leaving me many options.

[upbeat glacier]

scaling the loot pressure out in ASC areas the higher the critter would be a good experiment.. to see how it'd affect things game-wide. and it hits the target of carrot for ASC. More hunting areas would be amazing but then there are alot of things already on the backlog for work.. disabler, profession reviews, next tier asc. Was just a random stream of conciousness.. lol.

[rocky moth]

the problem is most people in the game cant make decent loot because if a hunting ground is too easy and crowded it gives crappy loot.. but turns out its actually too easy for the people that outgrew it.. (that 20-30 million crowd you were describing above). It's still challenging enough for the casuals. (all this as is pertains to the entire conversation today about loot pressure and its effects, and not so much ascension rewards). Removing loot pressure from ascension grounds would be a huge carrot tho!

[sharp dagger]

You can make decent loot anywhere at any experience - and your emoji response is why talking with you is a chore. You want compliance, not discussion

[upbeat glacier]

decent is subjective.. the loot pressure makes the efficiency of it vary wildly. it's crazy how much it seems to affect plat.. I can only imagine prime 😄

[rocky moth]

umm, no.. I've yet to hear a single argument to say that removing loot pressure would NOT decrease/close the wealth gap. Your statement is neither here nor there. It's very "convenient", at best...

[next socket]

You can increase loot without it falling under the mechanism of pressure. Falicor is spot on. The data keeps showing time and time again that you can make decent loot anywhere, but people fail to understand the basics.
None of that has anything to do with Ascension Area Incentives, however

[sharp dagger]

I dont care if they remove or dont remove it . I am directly challenging your assertion that you cannot make loot unless you are some top end hunter in a top end zone with no loot pressure. It's demonstrably false in literally every capped zone.

You said: the problem is most people in the game cant make decent loot because if a hunting ground is too easy and crowded it gives crappy loot

This statement is false.

[rocky moth]

I never said that. sooo.. pretty hard to move on from here 😛

[upbeat glacier]

Unless that is a carrot.. the suggestion is out there whether you agree with it being good or not. Saying it isn't relevant just doesn't pan out.

[next socket]

No, what I'm saying is the relevant suggestion here is "Make loot better in ascension zones". Nothing extra needs to be appended or else the discussion spirals into irrelevant tangents

[sharp dagger]

Pick a zone. Pick some nebulous loot goal. I am willing to prove you wrong on a variety of classes and gear levels

OTF is a level 90+ zone.

HW is literally the hardest zone in the game

[rocky moth]

so wait a minute, decent loot is making 294k in OTF compared to HW 1.2m / hour??? LOL

[upbeat glacier]

This is fair.. but suggesting a mechanism for it isn't horrible either.. or two.. or twenty.. It's all just suggestions for staff to consider.

[next socket]

If that's your answer to Auchand's question, by all means.
Otherwise, we spend all day or multiple days talking about game wide mechanics which wasn't the ask here.

[rocky moth]

where are the 2 million a month people hunting? they are making decent loot?? what about Nelemar? You don't like the OTF comparison because it throws light on your useage of the term decent here to suit your needs..

[upbeat glacier]

It sorta was yeah.. There was a ton of talk about loot pressure that wasn't the ask but it spawned a random thought that it could be a carrot. 😄

[sharp dagger]

More accurately - Are they just barely hunting Lumnis or are they hunting 10+ hours a day.

[rocky moth]

thanks to loot pressure, hunting 10 hours a day in the same place would do what?

[next socket]

From where I sit, it spawned one person insisting on a problem and loads of people telling him he's wrong, providing data, offering alternatives, and none of that moving the needle on either of the two topics.

[upbeat glacier]

but hey.. I made it back on topic.. 🥕 .. so it wasn't all wasted

[smoky kindle]

Yeah, I think, again, I would like to ask for discussion on loot pressure to move to a separate thread or channel now

[rocky moth]

showing data that shows 294k to 1.2m/hour is saying that WHAT is wrong? that loot pressure is a good mechanic? you dont even know how much loot pressure affected those numbers.. All I'm saying is:

Turn off loot pressure and people that make very little will make more, people that make the most, will make the same.. Argue against that if you will, otherwise stop trying to throw smoke

[smoky kindle]

End it there.

[upbeat glacier]

I'll tweak my suggestion to.. better (and more consistent) loot in ASC areas as a possible carrot 🙂

[rocky moth]

what channel is it supposed to be in?

[smoky kindle]

https://discord.com/channels/226045346399256576/532373273816858636

[alpine iris]

My biggest peeze is that the only method I have to find enhancives of high quality is to scour the pawnshops or run DR for 1000 runs

[untold meteor]

The only enhancives I've ever found that I truly loved came from Red Forest treekin (toward the end of a Duskruin, so the area was much richer than usual) and Hinterwilds. I've never used any enhancive I've gotten from DR in tens of thousands upon tens of thousands of runs, heh.

But hey, this is what the enhancive reroller is coming for, right?

[cedar flax]

I've found some pretty amazing enhancives over the years. Recently sold a helm in my shop for 49m that was found in a box, and with the new accessory convert cert, it's now probably worth a lot more. I suspect the formula is a little complex, tweaks itself based on treasure system parameters, and can also be manipulated, as in it's probably been changed several times since the introduction of enhancives. Bottom line: it's mostly luck.

[cloud karma]

i've found at least a handful of decent ones from DR

[proper carbon]

Ive gotten about 10 enhancives out of hw that are ‘good’, by which i mean ive sold them in my player shops for 1-10m each

Im sitting on a 10 phys fitness bonus neck i dont know what to do with atm. Sell or hold to see if it becomes swappable at eg. Found it two weeks ago

[pine echo]

More exp per hour than bandits would get me into Ascension Hunting Grounds (AHGs). So would things that boost my player power. I don’t think anything else would but am open to suggestions.

[mellow zenith]

Curious - for the folks who have run HW and Moonsedge, but choose HW...
What makes HW better? Asking to learn, and debate whether I should give HW a try or not.

[cloud karma]

better loot, creatures easier for a sorcerer to kill

[untold meteor]

Hinterwilds is richer, is mostly easier, lets you avoid the things that aren't easier, has better separation of its areas in general, has better mitigation against environmental effects, and has an entire awesome system of temporary purchaseable buffs.

Honestly, basically everything about it is better except possibly the room descriptions and creature descriptions, which is more a matter of taste.

[royal niche]

Doesn't have an organ, either.

Well, except inside the oozes.

[lyric turret]

moonsedge too easy, so I go to HW to look for wyrms and get some bruises from valravns

[left marsh]

I prefer Moonsedge (vibe, close to town, organ is cool, plus it's 100% undead which is nice since I'm all Voln on my ascension characters) but find myself hunting Hinterwilds until I hit loot cap because the loot there is significantly better than Moonsedge. Both areas are awesome. I find the wyrm annoying so not having to deal with it in ME is nice.

[proper carbon]

HW has much much better loot. Also ME bounty rewards are broken.

If loot was equal, or even close, id hunt moonsedge. ME is easier critter by critter, but has the ability to kill you far easier through a death spiral of bad things.

Also HW is more like 4-5 hunting grounds, not one

Ill hunt Fjal for loot. Pit for exp and rare alter fodder, boreal for when im with friends who cant handle sheer fear, berserkers end for when i want to challenge myself

[left marsh]

Yeah Ascension areas are supposed to have a 10% bounty reward bonus. HW has it, ME doesn't. Auchand said adding it's a whole thing. I'm sort of puzzled why ME wasn't set up with the bonus from the start like HW was but who knows.

[proper carbon]

Im assuming the issue is the halfling in hw is set up for it and its harder to make halline distinguish it.

Might be easier to stick an advguild task giver for ME somewhere on the road

[worn magnet]

Or add a mini town in obelin pass

[honest trellis]

Higher item budget / quality drops for things like enhancives, temporary bonuses, etc would make people hunt there. If the random drops that aren't part of the loot equation have a higher floor than those found in non-ascension areas, you'll get people flocking the area. Also, some kind of earned ascension XP bonus, like completing bounties within the zone grant an additional 100 ascension only XP benefit.

I think one of the biggest reasons for fewer players hunting these areas is due to spending a great deal on gear that isn't allowed to be used in spell sever (x/day magic items mostly). Totally get the reasoning, dont want it to change, but that's likely a big reality.

[proper carbon]

I think the whole loot system is stale as hell honestly. Regardless of caps, pressures, etc. The actual things that can and do show up in the boxes are bland and ultimately uninspiring.

Anything that is good enough to go into the 100 shell prize pull pile from a few EGs ago should be in the box pool. They should drop at like 1/100 boxes rate. There should be alter fodder items in boxes ranging from bolts of cloth to hunks of rare metals as well as unique creature bits

[lyric turret]

you'd think in a game with 10,000+ scripted items, someone could be in charge of randomly adding some of them to boxes :p