#Wand Bow Nerf / Stealth Nerfs in General

1 messages · Page 1 of 1 (latest)

narrow iris
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As those watching the Auction outcomes know, a Wandolier was purchased in part to fuel a wand bow, and the next morning a stealth nerf was quietly rolled out to the wand bows to prevent this (the analyze on all wand bows was updated, previously it didn't say it prohibited scripted rods, it now does). There was a lot of chatter around this in the Auction thread, but no official message about it or really any sort of acknowledgment.

Either at the same time, or some time since, it looks like another update was made, that removed the double flaring on the wand bow script. Previously, my wand bow flared fire twice, but I switched to Acid a while back and saw it only flared once, but figured maybe it was just the flare type (and my incredible lazyness kept me from switching it back). In talking with others, sounds like it was supposed to be flaring twice, and I tried lightning this morning, flaring once, so I went and tried fire again, only once.

Can we please knock it off with stealth nerfing auction grade items? Is the hope just.. nobody will notice? We log everything. The Wand bow script is seen as one of the worst in game as it consumes both the script and the ability flare slot, all in order to get what are now slightly amped ability flares. The double flaring was only two standard flares, it wasn't instant death or anything.

But the real issue is with these changes being quietly rolled out with no notification or discussion at all, and it's on us to notice and call them out.

hazy inlet
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They should give you a refund, at least. Same with the pie box! Although at least they announced that one.

upbeat condor
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I wish they would consider unlocking the flare slot for wandbows

raw summit
hazy inlet
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No longer anonymous. Doesn't work on KS or unpresenced characters. I forget if there was more

hollow summit
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It's too bad. Thematically, it's a cool item. But I wouldn't put 8 silvers of effort into one now after this change.

I asked multiple times if the flaring was intended years ago. Idk why this item in particular is deemed so overpowered with the huge restrictions on it then the huge stealth nerfs

full dust
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Wand bows are like ranged chainspears. They’re cool, really cool, but not especially good

narrow iris
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Yeah, the fact that it was modest at best was one thing, but the real Issue I have is with the absolute silence about the change. It's been brought up several times now without any response.

hollow summit
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Can't get answers on if it's functioning correctly. Then can't get answers about the changes. Seems like maybe the item just exists as a cautionary tale

agile sedge
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Its tough for a GM since items can get created for a multitude of separate purposes and if 2 items randomly combine (out of the 20+ years of items) to become overpowered then I can see a need to nerf them if it was not intended as such. The issue its always a gamble if that will happen so ppl specifically go for it and roll the dice. Sometimes they win and sometimes they lose. Refunds might be needed in these cases....

narrow iris
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Ultimately, the wandolier interaction is minor. I get why blocking scripted wands is important, as you don't want people shoving their wand combiners etc. in there. My real concern is the major shift to combat value of a script after about 3 years, and a half dozen discussions, and many many requests for confirmation of the intended behavior on the double flaring etc. Being able to easily charge it is one thing, but the power reduction on what was largely considered middling when it double flared is my real concern. The bow has a major maintenance component, and since it uses up a script slot and a property slot, the current power level is just not competitive. Based on all evidence, combat scripts during the archery conversion were buffed, people have said they were told double flaring was intentional, and the script was marked as tested on the design doc for the overhaul.

brazen plume
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why is it ok to auction or raffle an ebow (with 100% flares), but its not ok to auction/raffle a wand harness that someone can couple with a wand bow to get 100% flares??

hollow summit
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The funny part is, all the person did was prepay for 10 years of wands

thorny furnace
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imho rehashing the specifics about the wandolier situation again is really distracting from the core issue of surprising unannounced changes to long established behavior

hollow summit
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Agreed

brazen plume
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I think we might be underestimating peoples' attention span. 😛

hollow summit
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I'd super love to see a response to this

narrow iris
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North of two weeks now (since this post, nine since the nerf was rolled out). Any official word on this to release?

full dust
north mist
agile sedge
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I feel like there is only 1-2 people who this actually affects and 20+ ppl just watching for the impending shietstorm

raw summit
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I'm watching because I think everybody is going to end up happy and satisfied. And seeing folks be happy makes me happy.

hollow summit
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I am really just more baffled that the item I put in a locker because it was too hard to manage properly is being nerfed

brazen plume
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FWIW, I'd been super interested in the wand bow add on script for DR (I had requested it in the DR form) and was bummed that it was released at such a high price (250k BS). I didn't think it was worth it for that cost. The minute I saw a wandolier released I changed my mind. I'll pay that price to make a new project ranged weapon, add wand bow, and was thinking about splurging at the auction on a wandolier with an "elemental" spell, to use as ammo for this "idealized" wand bow project. I held back because I already have a finished bow and had been saving for a big boat and decided to wait and see what kind of wandoliers become available as OTS and unlocks at DR (if they are released or not).. I almost bid on a wandolier, and who knows, I might've won one.. Guess I'm lucky I didn't

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That's why I think it IS relevant and not distracting to discuss here (no sense in making a new post) why the decision was made to not allow wandolier "wands" to be used with a "wand" bow... They aren't cheap and other items have been sold that are equally powerful or more and they are ok (most comparable being elemental bows with 100% flare rate) Why is combining TWO items/scripts for the same power as ONE not allowed? (the only thing I can think of is that maybe DR will have some unlimited wandoliers at way lower/more affordable prices and they don't want it to be to easy or cheap to do so (combine wandoliers and wand bows)

hollow summit
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Pre-buying 10 years of wands shouldnt be considered cheap lol

brazen plume
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Nerfs without any communication or compromise are never fun. People have been asking for the wand bow script to get some love and recently with the add on to DR, everyone asked to lower the price. I feel like, at the very least, they could've lowered the price right away. Fair bet to say not one add wand bow script was sold, right? nerf fast, love slow..

hollow summit
vernal turret
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Hey all, wanted to jump in here and explain what happened.

The Wand Bows were updated when the archery updates hit, however, they were missed in the huge list of archery item scripts that were pushed to the live instances. The script sat in our development instance, waiting to get rolled in, but never did. This was back in 2021. Because archery now uses the bow's properties instead of the arrow's properties, Wand Bows were given a bit of a lift during this time and flaring both for the bow and arrow. Wand Bows have code in there to guarantee a flare because the arrow is destroyed, and the code was forcing the double flare to happen now. You can find some chatter about it in #mechanics around here #mechanics message.

When the Wandolier interaction happened with the Wand Bow, it produced an error. Tamuz later mentioned that he didn't believe it should work, that can be found here #1083646503429603448 message.

In the Wand Bow script, there should have been an explicit restriction on script wands being used as ammo, but it appears because ranger imbeds are scripted, this wasn't fully implemented. So for a long time you could load any sort of wand in. Your favorite self mana 906 item? Load 'er in! We don't typically allow items that terminate other items to be used in this manner for obvious reasons. The Wandolier is also a self-terminating item, like the hurling bandoliers (can we call them Hurlandoliers? No? yikes). So the unlimited ammo expect to the Wand Bow was never intended.

Unfortunately when Tamuz fixed this issue, he rolled the double flare bug fix live as well from 2021. I reached out to the Wandolier owner and talked this over and a full refund was offered. I mentioned I would investigate the whole thing. Estild and I spoke about it and because the Wand Bow double flare bug stayed live for so long, we have decided to let any Wand Bows that were created before 5/19/2023 to have the double flare aspect. Anything after will work as intended. The Wandolier interaction is something we can't really allow because using temporary ammo isn't something we want to go down for any item.

hollow summit
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Appreciate the response, and the update to previous gear

vernal turret
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As for the pie box, I believe we're going to have to agree to disagree on a nerf. It was always intended to have the demeanor check in place, I mentioned this before the auctions happened. I ran out of time and included that in the ANALYZE for the item. You cannot have a demeanor check and be anonymous. Players would need to know how to react to it.

The unpresence safeguard was always there. They use the exact same systems as locate because it gives a location when you pie someone that isn't in the room with you. I ran my pie box through the routine that we had previously, forgetting that Kroderine Soule (KS) was a thing. Players cannot be located with KS, it's just that simple there.

The only portion of the pie box that was added was the temporary attunement after use. This is largely because you can WHISPER to the box, find out you're demeanor locked, and hand it off to another character. From reports that we had, because of the anonymous nature of the pie box initially, this happened. But since the box isn't anonymous anymore, I plan to reduce the temporary attunement nature down to either 1 day or 1 week. Likely going with 1 day.

Just like the Wandolier situation, the owner was offered a full refund or to trade it in for one of my harnesses that sold for a slight higher amount at auction.

hollow summit
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I have no horse in that race. As long as people are offered refunds/replacements of some equivalent value, whatevs.

narrow iris
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I appreciate older wand bows being grandfathered, but I do wonder how it's considered a 250k add on, which means it should be super competitive against, say, GEF, which is significantly cheaper. The script has massive maintenance and takes two slots, which should reasonably offset significant outpower. Even with double flaring many considered it not worth it (I will be heavily using mine but I'm stubborn and crazy).

vernal turret
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I agree. I think the issue/bug prior played a role in the pricing of it. We'll likely need to readjust this moving forward.

narrow iris
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Also, I 100% agree with the decision to block scripted wands but... bit of a heads up maybe? The gm participated in the conversation where players discussed the use, and several were interested in copying. A quick note the morning after and a LOT of player angst could have been avoided. There were i think 3 waves of discussion on it

vernal turret
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Yeah, I think it was all a misunderstanding. It's not easy to come into these things once the pitchforks are out. This wasn't on my radar at all because I wasn't involved in it initially until I started to research the issue. I don't think there was anything nefarious involved, it was just fixing what was an error that lead to changing how the Wand Bow worked entirely since 2021.

narrow iris
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Yeah. And one temporal finger wag at whomever fixed it in 2021 and didn't announce it then...

vernal turret
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Well technically, it was just the archery thing moving flares from ammo to bow. It should have never existed out in the wild, it just got missed.

hollow summit
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Not to harp, but it was a communication issues front to back. Envoy was a good move

vernal turret
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Yeah, Envoy problem is something we've been working on for several months. I hope it works out for us.

narrow iris
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also, now that this is out.. I am around 70% certain that those changes impacted mechanical quivers, but in a hardly worthwhile way. Previously, casting a spell at them changed both flares, but it looks like those changes made it so that the arrow flare is locked at creation and only the script can be changed. It may have also affected how mechanical quivers interact with other scripts too (it totally didn't work with a wand bow for one). I don't have any other bows to test with, but it's possible that other scripts may have been impacted by those changes.

narrow iris
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so now the question of etiquette, how long to wait before bugging the wand bows for not double flaring again...

vernal turret
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Hmm, looks like it was rolled live on May 19th. If it's not working, I'll need Estild to check again.

narrow iris
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I've been keeping watch out, the arrows are flaring once and they're getting juiced, so the script is clearly adding something, but it's still consistently only one flare

vernal turret
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Let me try something if you have a moment to test it.

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Okay I pushed something live to just Prime (in case I break everything). Let me know if it's working when you get a moment.

narrow iris
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I need maybe an hour before I can go hunt, but hey, nobody else uses them, right? Here's where you tell everybody I use it enough for 10 people?

vernal turret
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You're the only person!

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But yeah, just ping me here if it's looking right, or it's worse.

narrow iris
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according to your instructions, I am not to ping you at all as there has been no change.

upbeat condor
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The wandbows should have a chance for double flares now?

vernal turret
vernal turret
narrow iris
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sounds good. I can share logs etc. if it helps. PSM maneuvers it looks like the bow flares, normal shots the arrow, it's hard to tell what's actioning though (and certainly pre-fix that messaging happened). Pretty sure that's all wand bows for now

upbeat condor
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I wasn't aware. Thanks for the compromise.

vernal turret
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Once it's fixed and confirmed working, I'll make sure it gets an announcement as well.

narrow iris
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I wasn't going to make that rant... "you didn't annoucne the fix. but that's a good thing!"

weary dew
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I think I have an old wand bow I can test if needed. Just need to dig it out and find a few wands to load

narrow iris
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sure. can't hurt to see if I've somehow managed to bork my bow, since I did combine it with a mechanical quiver for a period. I should also prepare some "clean" arrows to hunt with tonight in case my arrows have like a "null flare" on them or something

midnight steeple
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Man... Now I feel like I need to test my quiver...

narrow iris
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Yeah, I am unsure if it'll still work with briar as described

hollow summit
narrow iris
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Oh, wand bows definitely don't work with the quiver. That I tested after the change push. Only the quiver applied.

midnight steeple
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Yeah, iirc, they're both technically legacy arrow conditions outside of bow stats and don't conflict with bow stats.

narrow iris
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Yeah, and since they both affect the arrow I doubt they'd both work. But briar and maybe gef aren't on the arrow, they're on the bow. But this fix apparently made everything the bow and the arrow is just a prop, and since the bow can't have two scripts, I don't see how both briar and quiver script would proc.

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(I'm afraid the only bows I have is a wand bow, and a completely plain bow, so I can't test the quiver interaction with anything else. I was planning to get dispel or something on my plain bow, debated GEF but not sure if it'll be compatible)

modest idol
narrow iris
modest idol
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Hmm, I remain skeptical but interested enough to test. I'll see what I can figure out.

narrow iris
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I can say that when I was testing my mech quiver it did not behave consistent with the previous owners experience. When I cast a new spell at the quiver, the flare in the script slot changed, but the flare in the property slot did not. I had arrows with two different flares on the mech quiver which isn't supposed to be possible per the previous owner.

modest idol
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That's been normal (at least for the last year or two that I've had a mech quiver). It seems the flare slot is held constant when the arrows are made, and only the script slot can be changed on the fly. I suspect that's perhaps different from how they once worked. But that's held constant every since the archery update I think.

narrow iris
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Ah, in that case then the previous owners info was stale. At the very least, all I'm suggesting is somebody with a Briar bow fire an arrow or two and confirm.

modest idol
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Just tested and verified what I think you've stated above - legacy wand bows aren't yet flaring twice, mech quiver still overwrites wand bow effect (as expected). And I'll let you know if I can find a briar bow to borrow - I do have a vested interest in that because I am hoping to do a briar script add to my bow this coming DR.

narrow iris
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Thanks, it would also be good if a flaring bow + mech quiver was checked. My suspicions come from Wyrom's comment that the reason the wand bows used to flare twice was because under the old system, the wand bow affected the arrow, the new system it affects the bow (since under new archery, the bow is what flares). A bug left both active, hence the double flaring, but mechanical quivers could quadruple flare (flare on bow + script on bow + 2 flares on arrow). But if the "arrow + bow" defect was fixed generically, it would break the mech quiver being able to combine with any property from a bow

narrow iris
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@midnight steeple Do you have a log from the last time you had your quiver flare at the same time as your bow flare? I just grabbed a cold flaring bow and fired about 30 arrows into things, got plenty of acid flares from the quiver, but no cold flares, which implies that the quiver now overrides the flares on the bow, at least for standard flares. Given that the previous owner was using dispel flares, that seems like a change, so I wanted to know if you had an example of the quiver working with a non-script flare

midnight steeple
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There's a lot happening in this... it was TWC with Mech Quiver, but you can clearly see the Dispel on the offhand: You know it's bad when 1 attack round surpasses Discord text Limit

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A subtle pale yellow light glints off the tip of a wooden arrow fletched with blue griffin feathers and tipped with a explosive broadhead, leaving a faint trail as it travels through the air.
You nock a wooden arrow fletched with blue griffin feathers and tipped with a explosive broadhead in your longbow.
You fire a wooden arrow at a tawny brindlecat!

Your longbow glows brightly for a moment, consuming the magical energies around the tawny brindlecat!
[SMR result: 268 (Open d100: 26, Bonus: 15)]
... 5 points of damage!
Strike to the tawny brindlecat's right arm sprains biceps.

AS: +341 vs DS: +85 with AvD: +30 + d100 roll: +67 = +353
... and hit for 112 points of damage!
Deep slash to the tawny brindlecat's right side!
Several inches of padding sliced off hip....
From the inside!
The tawny brindlecat is knocked to the ground!
The tawny brindlecat is stunned!

Necrotic energy from your longbow overflows into you!

You feel energized!
A tawny brindlecat is buffeted by a burst of wind and pushed back!

The tip of the wooden arrow suddenly shatters and bursts into a pulse of crackling electricity!
... 30 points of damage!
Horrid jolt of electricity shatters ribs in a sickening flash of light!
The tawny brindlecat's tail twitches feebly as he dies.
You feel as if you need to infuse more mana into your longbow.
Roundtime: 3 sec.

narrow iris
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So at least dispel was working. Need to find a dispel bow to see if it's still working with these updates. Also that second clip doesn't show explosive arrows and has two different flares, was the mech quiver even in play?

midnight steeple
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You may be right on that clip... I've been sorting through lots of discord messages with lots of flares. It would be very weird if only dispel was working for Category A?

Reskinned Dispel from another bow:

You fire a spiraled arrow at a half-elven rogue!
 ** Thin blades of grass fall from your recurved ruic longbow as a spectral doe appears in front of a half-elven rogue, hind legs kicking and flailing in a protective whirlwind attack! **
[SMR result: 123 (Open d100: 31)]
   ... 20 points of damage!
   The half-elven rogue's stomach muscles ripped apart violently.
   The half-elven rogue is stunned!
  AS: +422 vs DS: +285 with AvD: +43 + d100 roll: +13 = +193
   ... and hit for 21 points of damage!
   Well aimed shot almost removes an eye!
Your recurved ruic longbow fades some.
 ** The tip of the spiraled arrow suddenly shatters and bursts into a pulse of crackling electricity! **
   ... 30 points of damage!
   Horrid jolt of electricity shatters ribs in a sickening flash of light!
A shudder runs through the recurved ruic longbow as dull energy is forced into it.```
narrow iris
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I'm wondering if Dispel's pre-attack resolution quirks with the quiver and is the only B flare that can stack with it. The other ones people have shared (briar and rot) are script flavors. I don't think anybody has shown cold/fire/lightning on the bow working with the quiver. Dispel is Cat B. A would be like Ghezyte. I need to find a Dispel bow to test with next. Taller order. And a material flare would be even taller than that

midnight steeple
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I'm also seeing evidence of pixie flares in these logs... but I'm having problems finding the logs I'm looking for

narrow iris
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Good news, I can confirm that Dispel Flares work with the quiver, as does sprite flares. I haven't tried turbo sprite (that I actually WOULD be surprised at, but seriously, 4 flare chances per shot is enough for me (ok I'm partied with a paladin but still))). So for now it's just the wand bow double flare that's needing work (which I just confirmed is still not active on wand bows)

midnight steeple
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Ehh .. I wouldn't assume they'd work though, technically speaking, I thought the bow removed arrow properties when used. Iirc, you didn't get the bonus for master fletched, because the arrows were similarly consumed as reagents for the ebow esque properties.

narrow iris
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I think a lot of it depends on how the flare is contructed. Ensorcelling, Dispel, and Sprite all appear to come frm the bow, not the arrow. Well, the sprite flare comes from the sprite, but I imagine the bow tells it to do stuff during an attack.

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The wand bow, Near as I can tell it doesn't remove arrow properties, it just can't juice an arrow that has properties, so if you use flaring arrows, or anything else, the wand bow won't attach it's flare script to the arrow. So if I used flaring arrows, the wand script just doesn't do anything. Same with the quiver, because the quiver has touched the arrow, the bow can no longer touch it, so it doesn't do anything.

modest idol
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That’s a good find. I had just assumed all catB flares were overwritten.