#Two Handed Weapons

1 messages · Page 1 of 1 (latest)

worn sparrow
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Looking to gauge how dev feels THWs are doing. Being a user myself I think they could use some love, the extra offense (though I honestly don't think this is true anymore with shield maneuvers) they provide pales in comparison with the benefits of shields.

I think maybe raising the crit randomization floor for them (if this is something even possible) could help some. Improving some DFs might help as well. Maybe something like the martial mastery but for DS. I'm not really sure of the remedies really, these are just random ideas. I just know that THWs feel weaker than one handers to me.

late imp
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They provide essentially no extra offense. The extra damage and kills smrs and flares do means that two one handers or a one hander plus shield is always a more effective offense platform than a single two hander. They also have a bland set of weapon techs.

An empty hand loses you out on more enhancives, flares, scripts, weapon damage, shield ds, and shield mans

Keep in mind, many shield mans can sub out for cmans, so the shield user has a whole extra bucket of free cman points as a result

umbral jolt
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THW has some real flaws that don't seem to have great upsides. Not only do they have a big tax on DEX/AGI for MSTRIKEs, and a ton of base speed to work down before we even talk about RT. Once you get into the powerful stats at cap they just don't really hang in there because the defense hit isn't worth the offensive output

frosty mantle
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Last time I got into trying to get information about the state of 2handers, the raw additional damage seemed to be pointed at as more than enough benefit to using it. When you are using a 2hander, you are locked out of several other systems (dual wield, shield, open handed casting...etc) but you are just given a raw damage increase.

The issue is that the raw damage increase is then subject to the same crit randomization as anything else. Without AGIDEX to support it, the 2hander then leaves you in a significantly worse position than a 1hander when you don't get that killshot or disable.

I was using an 8x Blink Flaring, HCW, Perfect forged maul with lore boosted 1605 and I still felt like I was noodle slapping things at times. I switched to an equivalent Morning Star and I feel like I actually GAINED a significant amount of power between my shield offering more battlefield control and defense along minimal or no loss to my damage

long saddle
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I say this with complete seriousness: THWs are for empaths and wizards. That’s because:

  • They both have relatively low AS and so need the high DF to compensate.
  • Neither have shield maneuvers that would kick up the value of that alternative.
  • TWC is prohibitively expensive to them, cutting out that option. (Ranged is good, though. There is that!)
  • Neither have the really strong kinds of combat maneuvers or weapon techniques that would make other weapon types more attractive, like Hamstring, Pummel, or Flurry. Even in a hypothetical world where pures could get weapon techniques, Overpower would actually be one of the best due to lack of combat maneuver support backing up those techniques.
  • Wizards don’t mstrike, or at very least don’t until well post-cap, so the RT is immaterial since they still swing in one second. They also have exceptional DS that mitigates the defensive downside.

Probably some other points I’m not thinking of too. But yeah, for sure I agree there’s borderline no reason to go THW on a square or semi at this point.

frosty mantle
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That kind of makes sense. Throwing more AS at THW seemed almost useless because I was already at a crit threshold where my negative experiences were outside of my control. Where as an empath/wizard is kind of stuck in an AS pigeonhole.

late imp
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Its an objectively worst option for offensive weapon users. Which is pants-on-head, but true

lavish phoenix
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Just because the mechanics folder is where Difference came to die, I feel compelled to mention that while I think this is true, and I'm feeling it personally, this is partly because shield maneuvers made shields really good. In other words, the alternative gained ground, rather than THW losing ground.

And I mention it, because that's how I think it would work: stuff gets better, people want the new stuff. No nerfs required.

late imp
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I agree with that analysis. Shield mans and Duskruin’s ‘build your own excalibur’ feature is definitely the cause

frosty mantle
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THW are by no means "useless" or anything that drastic. Mechanics talk, for me anyway, is more about what is optimal. When I say 2H was worse, I mean when you are optimizing.

You should always build your character the way you want to. I want to optimize sometimes, and being stuck at a certain level can get obnoxious.

frosty swan
# frosty mantle Last time I got into trying to get information about the state of 2handers, the ...

I felt it lacked enough, specially with how the games evolved in recent years that fast weapons (specially fast weapons with flares. Two weapon or one handed shield combos) are king. If I wanted to be 2 handed I decided to swap for the first time to polearm to at least get a bit of added DS. Used to be that with the weighing and heavy hitting of 2 hander and polearms we were getting something to make up for not having a shield. lol. Not anymore it doesn't equal out at all. 2hander/polearms are in a deficit position in the game now.

terse cliff
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The issue I have with two handers is that the DF, crit factors, etc... were all balanced against the defensive trade offs that existed 30 years ago. Since that time, the defensive layers have grown- sanct on shield, ensorcell on shield, scripts on shield- offensive and defensive, etc... and nothing unique to two handers has changed so the gap is widened and continues to be so.

sand galleon
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For me, the only consideration would be low endrolls as Leafiara mentioned, and non-corp. Even with the latter, it could simply be a damage per second calculation and that one-handed still win out with assaults, free shield strike, etc.

Hot take, but what I'd really like is if all the weapon DFs were normalized by RT and had some compression, keep the AvD to show slight inter-weapon difference, so that the weapon should largely be an RP choice. A character shouldn't be brutally punished if they want to rock a scimitar.

winter orbit
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I gotta admit, I've been a claid fan since I started GS. But my two weapon warrior I made to try things out is a LOT of fun. Dual short swords + hamstring is omg

late imp
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Rinauldo has it pinned. 30 years ago, the offense of a thw was a big differential in a world of limited gear upgrades. Now, a forced empty hand might be the single biggest penalty you can assign a weapon (aside from meme ones that are utter garbage).

I think two scimitars loaded to the gills with flares and scripts would still out perform a maul.

winter orbit
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my two short swords are 6x, fully unlocked twin weapons with T3 dispel flares on each. They murder in my warriors hands

sand galleon
late imp
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Oh yeah. I'm with you. Scmitars should just be rolled into longswords and allow the noun swap

sand galleon
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Also, 30 years ago we didn't have crit randomization for AS/DS resolutions. Having loads of crit weighting via claidh was, effectively, THE item chase at the time. I still feel like having an old-style claidh with the 0.275 DF vs plate was fulfilling a lifelong GS goal. Now, mathematically, there's a lot to be desired.

winter orbit
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Though, I must say, I'm having a lot of fun with my claid on my bard. That 3rt with a 10x claid is a lot of fun pepeLaugh

limpid fox
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But THW has the advantage of a free hand for quicker looting, that’s.. something? I enjoy THWs, moreso for RP perspective.. but agree the DFs don’t compare to the damage output shield maneuvers and a decked out one handed weapon can provide and that’s not mentioning the significant DS and TD and RT differences. At the very least it would be nice if THW received a similar DS boost as Polearm. I think polearm TP costs would prob need to drop for most classes to make it fair.

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Or even a DS boost for your open off-hand if you happen to be trained brawling and TWC. Just a thought.

late imp
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At this point, its not likely to see any changes to the THW category. BUT, the charm system could have something that makes them more offensive.

lavish phoenix
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I agree (and weighed in above) with most of this, but one possible counterpoint: berserking in the DR arena. If you're not using setups, I'm suspicious it's hard to beat the DPS of a well-trained berserking mauler with a nice weapon. I assume you'd have to be THW to compete?

late imp
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My zerk times are way faster with the twc of a bastard sword/longsword than with just my thw bastard sword. I'm sure a maul with max moc would be better though. i score alot of flare crit kills between lightning GEF, Animal Disruption t4 and regular distintegrate

terse cliff
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I'm not really sure balance or game wide mechanics should factor in the fungible DR arena

late imp
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definitely not

lavish phoenix
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Oh no, I was thinking about player preferences, not system design.

long saddle
lavish phoenix
long saddle
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I mean, we're talking about berserking, so the usual maul advantage of being able to aim for heads is out the window. Lances have superior DF and the good one-handed weapons have more than half the DF of a maul, so two of them are better on sheer damage while also being able to pile on more flares.

frosty mantle
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I find more that once you get to that DF level, a bit more or less is not even noticeable

tiny summit
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solution brainstorming, just tossing stuff out there... more parry defense/chance with THW, sanct/ensorcel on a THW could give defensive bonuses like a runestaff, a boost of 10 AvD across the board for THW, a DF bonus or a full THW DF audit (I know that's unrealistic but a rebalance and normalization would be awesome), additional RT mitigation based on strength

late imp
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I dont want any defensive bonuses. Its a thw. I want killing power

terse cliff
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I think they need to be made more defensive, maybe not raw DS or EBP, but sheer fear and more lethality
weapon/shield is just so superior for both offensive and defense. It's out of alignment.

tiny summit
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yes^^ what Rin said. The DS isn't important but sheer fear bonus is what I would like. Not having a shield to get those phantom levels is a major downside for certain builds

late imp
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I guess? Im not super convinced the way address poor thw offensive power vs all other options is more defense. Just get a shield

tiny summit
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I was just tossing some balancing ideas out there.

late imp
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Here was my original idea. “Momentum”

by letting non shield holders build stacks of ‘momentum’ which would translate to a % flare chance for additional concussion damage on swings. momentum would require you to stand in advanced or lower and would decay stacks rapidly in order to encourage you to get into combat, be aggressive and engage rapidly. In other words, encourage all out offense and quickly move from critter to critter.

Go into a stance higher than advanced and you immediately lose all stacks.

long saddle
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I feel like Overpower is the right general idea of how to do THWs, but THWs should just innately be harder to block or parry (maybe not evade) in the first place.

Maybe there could be a reduction to parry success depending on the base RT of the attacking weapon vs. the base RT of the defending weapon. As for shields, I think I even proposed an Ascension ability once where you could just hit so hard with a big weapon that some amount of damage would carry through a blocked attack anyway.

Still, none of that gets around the TWC option being better since EBPing away two weapons will always be tougher than EBPing away one. So more would still be needed.

winter orbit
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if a creature blocks or parries someone with a THW, there should be a chance for the THW user to blow through that block/parry and hit

tiny summit
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strength could add crit weighting on THW

sand galleon
late imp
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Here is the thing about overpower…ive got better and faster options for that 3 seconds. I can swing 4 times with my bastard sword on a thrash in 3 seconds

long saddle
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Learn something new every day, though I will say it's telling that I would absolutely never have guessed it's harder to parry away a larger weapon with a smaller one.

As for Ptolemy's point, yeah, weapon techniques skew things significantly further in the direction of one-handed weapons.

Trying to think of what would be flavorful, maybe there could be an option to charge up attacks made with THWs. Maybe a system like Swift Justice for paladins, except instead of storing charges that reduce RT, you could store charges that increase RT in exchange for hitting like a train and perhaps being unblockable or far harder to block.

frosty mantle
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My RT is already unfavorable with a 2hander. It would be good to see speed increases for the offhand tradeoff and DS/evasion imo.

late imp
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Thw should have had a way to apply weaken armament. Problem solved

tiny summit
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overpower should happen automatically and with no added RT

terse cliff
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THW should get the runestaff treatment for shear fear and CvA and should flare on parry

sand galleon
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Forceful Blows is hot garbage. Having a standard flare chance to apply Feeble is basically worthless. I'd redesign it to be passive buff that doubles the base attacker speed for the purposes of reducing the Parry % of the target. This has the effect of basically removing the chance for the target to parry if you have 10 or greater difference. A two-handed sword has a base 8 rt, and doubling that means any target with a RT 6 of lower weapon cannot parry. Still doesn't solve for evade or block, but it's flavorful and aligned with overpower.
OR
Any attack that the target successfully EBP, instead reduces the DF of the attack by X% and the AS/DS resolution proceeds as per usual.

sand galleon
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Some other ideas:

Feeble Redesign
Standard flare chance to apply Feeble (X); where X power is equal to 2. Feeble (X) applies X "points" of Force on Force on the target. This stacks up to 10 points of Force on Force. This also has the benefit of applying DS penalties even if the target is already in offensive, and it can apply to SMR and TD. The flare occurs before the swing thereby applying to the triggering event.

Overpower Redesign

  • No longer AS/DS resolution, instead SMR.
  • Does two cycles of devastating (high endroll coefficient) weapon damage. THW techniques don't have an SMR attack like: Dizzying Swing, Cripple, Charge, Radial Sweep, Pin Down, Volley, Twin Hammerfists, Spin Kick.
  • The action increases the power of Feeble by 2, and applies to the action itself.
  • Similar to shield size modifiers to endroll, each base RT the weapon is above 6 increases the endroll by 5% (e.g., 10% for two-handed sword, -15% for quarterstaff).
fast zenith
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Twc is powerful because it's two attacks. I'd like to see thw do secondary damage with each hit that's basically impact damage. Weapon size increases the damage.

frosty mantle
late imp